Transcript: The Rise of Plant-Based Meat | Jun 19, 2019

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a dark blue suit, white shirt, and purple tie.

A caption on screen reads "The rise of plant-based meats. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says THERE IS SOMETHING NEW
ON THE MENUS OF ESTABLISHMENTS
SUCH AS A and W AND KELSEY'S, AND
ALSO NOW TIM HORTONS.
BEYOND MEAT BURGERS AND
BREAKFAST SANDWICHES ARE MAKING
THEIR WAY INTO THE HANDS AND
MOUTHS OF CONSUMERS.
THE COMPANY IS PART OF A
STRATOSPHERIC RISE OF
PLANT-BASED MEAT ALTERNATIVES.
WHAT DOES THIS MEATLESS MEAT SAY
ABOUT OUR CHANGING RELATIONSHIP
WITH THE FOOD ON OUR PLATE?
LET'S ASK, IN SASKATOON,
SASKATCHEWAN, LISA CLARK.
SHE IS A POLITICAL SCIENTIST AND
RESEARCHER STUDYING FOOD POLICY
AND AGRICULTURE AT THE
UNIVERSITY OF SASKATCHEWAN.

Lisa is in her late thirties, with long brown hair. She's wearing a striped gray shirt.

Steve continues AND WITH US IN STUDIO: DANA MCCAULEY, ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR OF
NEW VENTURE CREATION AT THE
UNIVERSITY OF GUELPH...

Dana is in her early forties, with shoulder-length straight blond hair. She's wearing glasses, a black blazer and a black shirt.

Steve continues ROSIE SCHWARTZ, CONSULTING DIETICIAN...

Rosie is in her late sixties, with chin-length straight auburn hair. She's wearing a black blazer over a pink blouse.

Steve continues AND ADAM GROGAN,
SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT OF
MARKETING, INNOVATION AND
PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT WITH MAPLE LEAF FOODS.

Adam is in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short curly black hair. He's wearing a gray suit and a white shirt.

Steve continues AND WE ARE DELIGHTED TO WELCOME
THE THREE OF YOU HERE TO OUR
STUDIO AND LISA CLARK, GLAD TO
HAVE YOU ON THE LINE FROM
WESTERN CANADA.
LET ME JUST START BY READING
THIS TO GET OUR DISCUSSION GOING
HERE, ACCORDING TO ALLIED MARKET
RESEARCH...

A slate appears on screen, with the title "A growing market."

Steve reads data from the slate and says
IN 2017, MEAT
SUBSTITUTES ACCOUNTED FOR OVER
4 BILLION DOLLARS IN SALES GLOBALLY.
THEY EXPECT THAT NUMBER TO
NEARLY DOUBLE TO ALMOST 8
BILLION DOLLARS BY THE YEAR 2025.
LISA, TO YOU FIRST, WHY HAS
THERE BEEN SO MUCH GROWTH IN
THIS AREA?

The caption changes to "Lisa Clark. University of Saskatchewan."
Then, it changes again to "Going mainstream."

Lisa says WELL, I THINK THERE'S BEEN
GROWTH HAPPENING OVER THE LAST
FIVE, TEN YEARS OR SO, AND WE'RE
JUST SEEING THIS SORT OF, I
DON'T KNOW, FRUITION OF THE
MARKET HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.
AND I THINK IT HAS A LOT TO DO
WITH JUST MORE INFORMATION ABOUT
THE LINKAGES BETWEEN HEALTH AND
DIET AND MORE EVIDENCE-BASED
RESEARCH REGARDING ANIMAL-BASED
PROTEINS AND THEIR EFFECTS ON
HUMAN HEALTH.
ALSO THE LINKAGES BETWEEN
INDUSTRIAL MEAT PRODUCTION AND
CLIMATE CHANGE, AND I JUST THINK
MORE CONSUMERS ARE BECOMING
AWARE OF THESE CONNECTIONS AND
RE-THINKING SOME OF THEIR
DIETARY CHOICES.

Steve says ADAM, WHY DID YOUR
COMPANY DECIDE TO GET INTO THIS FIELD?

The caption changes to "Adam Grogan. Maple Leaf Foods."

Adam says WELL, WE INTEND TO SPEND
ABOUT 600 MILLION DOLLARS INTO THIS
SPACE.
WE BOUGHT TWO OF THE LARGEST
PLANT-BASED PROTEIN COMPANIES IN
THE UNITED STATES, AS WELL AS
WE'RE GOING TO BE INVESTING IN A
LARGE FACILITY.
WE SEE TREMENDOUS GROWTH.
WE'RE SEEING CONSUMERS LOOKING
FOR VARIETY OF PROTEIN, WHETHER
THAT'S MEAT-BASED OR PLANT-BASED
PROTEIN, FOR A VARIETY OF
REASONS THAT WAS CALLED OUT
EARLIER.
AND WE'RE JUST EXCITED TO BE IN
IT, AND WE'RE PLAYING TO WIN.

Steve says PLAYING TO WIN.
THAT SOUNDS LIKE A THING
CORPORATIONS SAY.
WE'RE PLAYING TO WIN.

Adam says WELL, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE HAD
TWO BRANDS, PROBABLY THE TWO
LARGEST BRANDS IN THE UNITED
STATES.
FIELD ROAST AND NIGHT LIFE.
AND WE'RE WELL BEYOND A BURGER.
YOU'RE SEEING A LOT IN THE FOOD
SERVICE SPACE.
WE PRODUCE TEMPE BURGERS,
SAUSAGES, A VARIETY OF PRODUCTS,
CHEESE EVEN, AND WE'RE SEEING
TREMENDOUS GROWTH IN THAT SPACE
WITH CONSUMERS.

Steve says DANA, LET ME FIGURE
OUT OR SEE IF WE CAN FIGURE OUT
WHAT'S NEW ABOUT THIS.
VEGGIE BURGERS HAVE BEEN AROUND
FOR YEARS.
HOW IS THIS DIFFERENT?

The caption changes to "Dana McCauley. University of Guelph."

Dana says WHAT'S DIFFERENT IS THESE
COMPANIES THAT ARE SUCCEEDING
RIGHT NOW HAVE BEEN COMING AT IT
FROM THE... THROUGH THE LENS OF
BIO-MIMICRY.
SO INSTEAD OF TRYING TO MAKE
SOMETHING THAT IS JUST VAGUELY
SIMILAR TO A MEAT BURGER, THEY
REALLY ARE TRYING TO DUPLICATE
IT.
SO IN 2009, YOU KNOW, THE BEYOND
MEAT FOLKS SAID THIS IS OUR MOON
SHOT, THIS IS WHAT WE'RE GOING
FOR.
AND THEY APPLIED SCIENCE AND A
LOT OF TECHNOLOGICAL INSIGHT
INTO FIGURING OUT HOW TO
DUPLICATE THAT MATRIX OF FIBRES
THAT MAKE MEAT MEATY, HOW TO
DUPLICATE THE JUICINESS.
IN FACT, THEY'VE ENDED UP TAKING
THE HEME THAT'S NATURALLY IN
SOYBEANS AND USING YEAST TO
FERMENT THAT, AND THAT'S WHAT
GIVES YOU THAT JUICINESS AND
THAT PINK COLOUR.
SO THIS IS NOT JUST COOKING.
THIS IS FOOD SCIENCE.
AND THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE.
WE ARE THE... OUR RESEARCHERS AT
THE UNIVERSITY OF GOLF WHO IS
WORKING AT TRYING TO
DUPLICATE... GUELPH WHO IS
TRYING TO DUPLICATE QUEBEC THE
FIBRES IN A STEAK.
KB SO THAT'S OBVIOUSLY GOING TO
BE A HUGE ENDEAVOUR, AND WE'RE
INVESTING A TON INTO THAT LAB,
AND THAT'S WHERE WE'RE GOING,
WITH THIS BIO-MIMICRY.

Steve says ROSIE, THIS CLEARLY
HAS MOVED BEYOND VEGETARIANS.
HOW COME?

The caption changes to "Rosie Schwartz. Dietician."

Rosie says WELL, I THINK THAT PEOPLE ARE
LOOKING AT SOME OF WHAT LISA HAS
SAID IN TERMS OF HEALTH, IN
TERMS OF THE ENVIRONMENT, BUT
I'M NOT SO SURE THAT THEY'RE
ALWAYS GETTING A HEALTHY CHOICE.

Steve says TELL ME WHAT YOU MEAN.

The caption changes to "Healthy or not?"

Rosie says WELL, SOME OF THESE
PLANT-BASED BURGERS OR
ALTERNATIVES, SOME OF THEM MAY
BE HEALTHIER.
IT DEPENDS ON WHAT THE AGENDAS
ARE.
BUT SOME ARE WHAT'S CALLED ULTRA
PROCESSED.
THEY CONTAIN ALL KINDS OF
INGREDIENTS THAT WE NORMALLY
WOULDN'T FIND IN FOOD.
SOME OF THEM ARE LOADED WITH
SODIUM, THEY'RE LOADED WITH
SATURATED FAT, AND SO IF PEOPLE
ARE CHOOSING THEM, IF THEY ARE
MEAT EATERS AND THEY ARE
CHOOSING SOME OF THESE
PLANT-BASED BURGERS FOR HEALTH,
THEY HAVE AN UNDESERVED HEALTH
HALO, AND SO YOU NEED TO LOOK AT
EACH PRODUCT INDIVIDUALLY.

Steve says LISA, WHAT'S YOUR VIEW
ON THAT SO-CALLED UNDESERVED
HEALTH HALO.
DO YOU AGREE?

Lisa says WELL, THE RESEARCH THAT I'VE
CONDUCTED WITH A FEW COLLEAGUES
AT THE UNIVERSITY OF
SASKATCHEWAN HAS SHOWN THAT A
LOT OF CANADIANS ARE CONCERNED
ABOUT THE PROCESSING INVOLVED
WITH SOME OF THESE MEAT
ANALOGUES AND THESE MORE KIND
OF... THESE VEGGIE BURGERS AND
THESE MEAT SUBSTITUTES.
MOST CANADIANS, WHAT WE FOUND,
CONSUME LOWER-PROCESSED
PLANT-BASED PROTEINS SUCH AS
BEANS OR TOFU, BUT ARE STILL
WARY OF THE ULTRA-PROCESSED-TYPE
VEGGIE CHICKEN STRIPS, THIS KIND
OF THING, AND VEGGIE BURGERS.
SO THERE'S DEFINITELY SOME
APPREHENSION ON BEHALF OF
CANADIAN CONSUMERS REGARDING
SODIUM LEVELS, AND WHAT OTHER
PRESERVATIVES ARE INCLUDED IN
MORE PROCESSED TYPES OF
PLANT-BASED PROTEINS.

Steve says HAVING SAID THAT,
ROSIE, EVERYTHING IS RELATIVE.
WOULD YOU SAY THAT THIS MEATLESS
MEAT IS HEALTHIER THAN REGULAR MEAT?

Rosie says IT DEPENDS ON THE PRODUCT.

Steve says IT DEPENDS AGAIN, EH?

The caption changes to "Rosie Schwartz, @RosieSchwartz."

Rosie says AND SO IF YOU LOOK AT SOME OF
THE OFFERINGS... YOU KNOW, THE
NEW BREAKFAST SANDWICHES, FOR
EXAMPLE, THE ONES THAT ARE
MEATLESS ARE HIGHER IN SODIUM
THAN THE ONES THAT CONTAIN MEAT.
SO WE NEED TO LOOK AT WHAT ARE
WE CHOOSING INSTEAD.
IF YOU'RE GETTING EVEN A REGULAR
MEAT BURGER AT A FAST FOOD
RESTAURANT, CHANCES ARE IT'S
GOING TO BE LOWER IN SODIUM AND
CONTAIN SIMILAR AMOUNTS OF FAT
AS PLANT-BASED BURGER.

Steve says MAY NOT BE FURTHER AHEAD.

Rosie says SO IN FACT... AND THE
RESEARCH IS LOOKING AT
ULTRA-PROCESSED FOODS, AND IT'S
SHOWING THAT WE SHOULD NOT BE
EATING THEM AS REGULARLY AS
PEOPLE THINK.

Steve says ADAM, ARE WE RIGHT TO
BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE IMPACTS
OF MEATLESS MEAT?

The caption changes to "Adam Grogan, @AdamJGrogan."

Adam says I THINK EVERYTHING IS ABOUT
BALANCE AND CHOICE.
I MEAN, IN OUR PARTICULAR
PERSPECTIVE, YOU KNOW, WE DO
PRODUCE BURGERS, BUT AT THE SAME
TIME WE ALSO HAVE TEMPE, WHICH
IS FERMENTED SOY.
SO I THINK IT'S REALLY ABOUT
PROVIDING VARIETY, AND WE HAVE A
RESPONSIBILITY AS AN
ORGANIZATION AND BRAND TO MAKE
SURE THAT WE'RE TRANSPARENT
ABOUT WHAT'S IN THE FOOD, AND I
THINK THAT'S THE POSITION THAT
WE TAKE.

Steve says ARE YOU?

Adam says ARE WE?

Steve says TRANSPARENT ABOUT
WHAT'S IN THE FOOD?

Adam says 100 percent.
YOU WILL FIND INFORMATION BOTH
ON THE LABEL, WHICH WE VIEW AS A
REALLY CRITICAL TO MAKE SURE
THAT THAT'S LEGIBLE, IT'S
UNDERSTANDABLE, AND THEN ALSO ON
OUR WEBSITE.
WE MAKE SURE THAT WE PROVIDE ALL
THAT INFORMATION.
SO I THINK IT'S OUR
RESPONSIBILITY AND IT'S OUR DUTY
TO OUR CONSUMERS TO MAKE SURE
THAT THEY UNDERSTAND WHAT
THEY'RE PUTTING IN THEIR BODY.

Steve says LISA, DO YOU THINK THE
PUBLIC IS CLEAR ON WHAT'S IN ITS
HEAD, THE PUBLIC'S HEAD, WHEN IT
HEARS PLANT-BASED MEAT?

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Lisa says WELL, I THINK THE PUBLICLY
ACKNOWLEDGED DEFINITIONS OF WHAT
PLANT-BASED MEAT IS IS EVOLVING.
THE CROSS-CANADA SURVEY THAT WE
CONDUCTED, WE TOILED OVER WHAT
TO CALL THIS GROUP OF FOODS, AND
WE CAME UP WITH PROTEIN
ALTERNATIVES BECAUSE THIS IS A
HEALTH CANADA TERM THAT INCLUDES
LOWER PROCESSED PLANT-BASED
PROTEINS SUCH AS BEANS, BUT ALSO
THINGS LIKE MEAT ANALOGUES,
VEGGIE BURGERS, THAT SORT OF
THING, BECAUSE IN A BETA TEST WE
FOUND THAT NOT EVERYBODY KNOWS
WHAT A PLANT-BASED FOOD OR
PLANT-BASED MEATS ARE.
SO I THINK AS MORE ATTENTION AND
MORE MEDIA ATTENTION GOES
TOWARDS BEYOND MEAT AND THE
PROLIFERATION OF PLANT-BASED
MEATS, PEOPLE WILL GET A BETTER
IDEA OF WHAT THEY ARE.
BUT THERE IS SOME CONFUSION AT
THIS POINT, FOR SURE.

Steve says YEAH, LET ME GET DANA
ON THAT TOO.

Dana says ONE OF MY FAVOURITE TOPICS.

Steve says DO WE REALLY GET...
WHEN WE SAY WE'RE HAVING A
PLANT-BASED HAMBURGER, DO WE
REALLY GET WHAT THAT MEANS?

The caption changes to "Dana McCauley, @DanaMcCauley."

Dana says THIS IS THE THING.
I HAVE THIS DEBATE QUITE OFTEN
BECAUSE THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE
IN THE MEAT INDUSTRY AND WHO ARE
VERY RATIONAL, LOGICAL FOLKS,
AND THEY ARE LIKE THIS ISN'T
MEAT SO WE SHOULDN'T CALL IT
MEAT.
AND THEY WERE LIKE SOY BEVERAGE
IS SOY BEVERAGE, NOT SOY MILK.
BUT THEN AS A MARKETER AT HEART
I COME BACK TO THIS AND I SAY,
WELL, BUT WHAT DOES THE CONSUMER
THINK THEY'RE BUYING?
WHAT ARE THEY HIRING TO DO THE
JOB?
LIKE I NEED SOMETHING TO DRINK,
THEREFORE THIS LOOKS LIKE MILK
AND IT SUBSTITUTES FOR MILK FOR
ME.
I CALL IT MILK.
SO THERE'S THIS TENSION...

Steve says WHEN IT'S REALLY NOT MILK.

The caption changes to "What's in a name?"

Dana says IT'S NOT.
IT DIDN'T COME OUT OF A MAMMARY
GLAND.
IT'S TECHNICALLY NOT MILK.
BUT I'M HIRING IT TO DO THE SAME
JOB AS MILK IN MY HOME AND ON MY
TABLE.
AND THE SAME THING, YOU KNOW,
WHEN YOU GO TO A and W AND YOU,
LIKE, YOU'RE GOING TO A BURGER
PLACE.
AND SO SOMEHOW WE HAVE TO
BALANCE OUT THE NEED FOR
TRANSPARENCY AND THE NEED TO
MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE UNDERSTAND
WHAT THEY'RE EATING AND THAT
MARKETING IS CLEAR.
BUT ALSO UNDERSTAND THE
CONSUMERS ARE ALREADY
OVERWHELMED WITH SO MANY
MESSAGES, AND WE HAVE TO SPEAK
THEIR LANGUAGE IF WE'RE GOING
TO, YOU KNOW, DEMYSTIFY WHAT'S
IN THE GROCERY STORE.

Steve says ADAM, LET ME DO A FEW
QUESTIONS WITH YOU RIGHT NOW,
AGAIN ON THIS ISSUE, SHOULD WE
BE CALLING THESE THINGS
PLANT-BASED PROTEIN AS OPPOSED
TO VEGGIE BURGER OR WHATEVER ELSE?

Adam says YOU KNOW, CONSUMERS KNOW THE
BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A MEAT
BURGER AND A PLANT-BASED BURGER.
I THINK WHAT'S REALLY GREAT
ABOUT THIS WHOLE SITUATION IS
THAT THESE ALTERNATIVE PRODUCTS
ARE AVAILABLE ACROSS THIS
COUNTRY.
ONLY A FEW YEARS AGO, IT WAS
VERY DIFFICULT TO FIND A
GREAT-TASTING VEGETARIAN BURGER,
A VEGAN BURGER OR A PLANT-BASED
BURGER, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO
CALL IT.
IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT, AND I
THAT IT'S THE CHOICE IS
AVAILABLE.
I DON'T NEED TO WEIGH TOO MUCH
INTO THAT TOPIC.
I THINK CONSUMERS CAN TELL US
THEY UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE.

Steve says YOU'RE WITH MAPLE LEAF
FOODS.
IS THAT A MEAT COMPANY?

Adam says WE'RE A PROTEIN COMPANY.
WE'RE A VERY SIGNIFICANT
INVESTOR IN PLANT PROTEIN.
WE OWN THE TWO LARGEST
REFRIGERATOR BRANDS IN THE U.S.,
SO WE VIEW OURSELVES AS A
PROTEIN COMPANY.
AT OUR HEART WE ARE A MEAT
COMPANY.
OUR HISTORY AND HERITAGE IS IN
THE MEAT BUSINESS, BUT AS
CONSUMERS GO, WE'RE GOING TO GO.
WE'RE GOING TO BE RIGHT THERE
WITH THEM, AND THEY'RE LOOKING
AT THINGS IN MORE OF A CONSUMING
OF PROTEIN, AND THAT'S WHAT WE
INTEND TO DO.

Steve says I ALWAYS THOUGHT YOU
WERE A MEAT COMPANY, BUT ON YOUR
WEBSITE YOU CALL YOURSELVES A
SUSTAINABLE PROTEIN COMPANY
RIGHT NOW.

Adam says YEAH, BECAUSE WE'VE INVESTED
HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN THE PLANT AREA, AND SO FOR
US, WE'RE AGNOSTIC.
WE HAVE TO... AS A BRANDED FOOD
COMPANY, WHAT'S IMPORTANT FOR US
IS TO MAKE SURE WE GIVE
CONSUMERS THE CHOICE, AND WHAT
CONSUMERS ARE TELLING US NOW IS
THEY WANT VARIETY.
THEY WANT TO HAVE A VEGGIE
BURGER, YOU KNOW, ONE DAY AND A
MEAT BURGER THE NEXT DAY.
AND SO WE INTEND TO PROVIDE IT TO THEM.

Steve says TELL ME THIS.
WHEN ONE GOES INTO A SUPER
MARKET AND ONE GOES TO THE
REFRIGERATED AREA WHERE YOU
WOULD EXPECT TO BUY REAL
HAMBURGER MEAT, DO YOU WANT TO
SEE THE PLANT-BASED STUFF IN
THAT SAME REFRIGERATED AREA?

Adam says ABSOLUTELY, AND ACTUALLY IT'S
HAPPENING ALREADY, STEVEN.
IF YOU WALK INTO ANY GROCERY
STORE ACROSS THIS COUNTRY RIGHT
NOW, I WAS IN VANCOUVER EARLIER
THIS WEEK, EVEN HERE IN TORONTO,
YOU CAN FIND RIGHT BESIDE A BEEF
BURGER A PLANT-BASED BURGER, AND
IT'S CLEARLY LABELLED, CLEARLY
LAID OUT, AND CONSUMERS ARE
CHOOSING THEM AT A QUITE RAPID RATE.

Steve says WELL, YOU WON'T BE
SURPRISED TO HEAR... SORRY ABOUT
THIS TERRIBLE PUN, BUT THAT'S
NOT KOSHER.
QUEBEC CATTLE PRODUCERS
FEDERATION HAS FILED A COMPLAINT
WITH THE CANADIAN FOOD
INSPECTION AGENCY SAYING THAT
PLANT-BASED PROTEINS SHOULDN'T
IDENTIFY THEMSELVES AS MEAT, AND
I THINK THEY ARE PROBABLY NOT
BANANAS ABOUT THE IDEA OF YOU
PUTTING IT RIGHT SIDE BY SIDE
WITH REAL MEAT PRODUCTS.
WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?

Adam says WELL, THE CONSUMER IS GOING
TO TELL US WHAT THEY WANT, AND
IT'S IMPORTANT FOR US AS AN
INDUSTRY TO MAKE SURE THAT WE...
THAT'S THE BUSINESS WE'RE IN, TO
MAKE SURE WE'RE PROVIDING
CONSUMERS WHAT THEY WANT.
SO OUR VIEW IS THAT IF THEY TELL
US THEY WANT TO HAVE IT RIGHT
BESIDE THE MEAT BURGERS, WE'RE
GOING TO PUT IT RIGHT THERE
BESIDE THE MEAT BURGERS.
WE'RE SEEING IT, MILK
ALTERNATIVES, I PURCHASE REGULAR
COW'S MILK AND THERE'S ALMOND
MILK RIGHT BESIDE IT, AND I
THINK THAT'S AN IMPORTANT CHOICE
AS A CONSUMER THAT I WANT TO BE
ABLE TO MAKE.

Steve says LISA, IS THIS AN ISSUE?

Lisa says UMM, I THINK, FROM OUR STUDY
RESULTS, I FEEL THAT MOST
CANADIANS WANT TO SEE... THEY
WANT CHOICE, AND I THINK THAT'S
A REALLY IMPORTANT ASPECT OF
THIS DISCUSSION.
WE FOUND THAT 26 percent OF CANADIANS
WE SURVEYED ARE... CONSIDER
THEMSELVES MEAT REDUCERS,
MEANING THEY INTEND TO
SUBSTITUTE... USE ANIMAL
PROTEINS INSTEAD OF MEAT
PROTEINS IN THEIR DAILY DIETS,
AND OF THOSE WHO SAID THEY WERE
INTENDING ON REDUCING THEIR MEAT
CONSUMPTION, 55 percent SAID THEY WERE
WILLING TO TRY NEW PROTEIN
ALTERNATIVES OR PLANT-BASED
FOODS IN THE FUTURE AS THEY ROLL
OUT INTO THE MARKET.
SO I THINK THE CONSUMER DEMAND
FOR CHOICE IS THERE, AND I THINK
WE NEED TO PROVIDE CONSUMERS
WITH AS MANY OPTIONS AS POSSIBLE
IN THIS DEPARTMENT.

Steve says DANA, WHAT'S YOUR VIEW
ON WHETHER OR NOT CONSUMERS ARE
DEEPLY CONCERNED ABOUT WHETHER
OR NOT REAL MEAT IS BESIDE THE
PLANT-BASED MEAT IS BESIDE THE
VEGGIE BURGERS, ET CETERA?

Dana says I THINK CONSUMERS WANT CONVENIENCE.
EVERY TIME I'VE DONE CONSUMER
RESEARCH ON ANY FOOD PRODUCT I
WAS INVOLVED WITH, CONVENIENCE
WAS ALWAYS IN THAT TOP THREE
AFTER, YOU KNOW, TASTE AND
FAMILY ACCEPTANCE.
VALUE AND CONVENIENCE WOULD SORT
OF JUGGLE FOR THE THIRD AND
FOURTH SPOT.
SO IF IT MAKES IT EASIER FOR YOU
TO ZIP IN AND OUT OF THE GROCERY
STORE AT 4:00 AND GO HOME AND
ACTUALLY COOK DINNER AND SIT
DOWN WITH YOUR FAMILY, THEN I
THINK CONSUMERS ARE ON BOARD.

Steve says AND THAT IS THE
MISSION AT THE END OF THE DAY,
ISN'T IT?

Dana says YEAH, IT'S ABOUT EATING AND
ENJOYING AND CONNECTING OVER
FOOD.
AND YOU KNOW, THE BUSINESS TYPES
HAVE, OF COURSE... YOU KNOW,
THEIR TERRITORY TO DEFEND, AND
THAT'S THEIR JOB I HEAR LISA AND
ADAM TALK ABOUT WHAT DO THE
CONSUMERS WANT.

Steve says ROSIE, HOW IMPORTANT
DO YOU THINK IT IS TO HAVE VERY
CLEAR DEFINITIONS ABOUT WHAT'S
MEAT, WHAT'S A VEGGIE BURGER,
WHAT'S A PLANT-BASED BURGER, WHATEVER?

Rosie says I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT, BUT I
THINK WE HAVE TO GO EVEN
FURTHER, SO THERE'S A
DIFFERENCE, FOR EXAMPLE, BETWEEN
WHAT ADAM IS TALKING ABOUT, A
TEMPE OR A FERMENTED SOY BURGER
AND ONE THAT IS MADE OUT OF SOY
PROTEIN ISOLATE.
WE'RE LOOKING... NUTRITIONALLY
WE SHOULD BE LOOKING FOR MORE
WHOLE FOODS, AND WHEN WE LOOK
AT, LET'S SAY, PLANT-BASED
BURGERS AND WE LUMP THEM ALL
TOGETHER, I THINK WE MIGHT BE
MAKING A MISTAKE THERE IN TERMS
OF NUTRITION.
WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT REAL
FOOD, AND WHEN YOU GET ALL THESE
ISOLATES AND ALL THESE DIFFERENT
COMBINATIONS, I THINK IT'S
IMPORTANT FOR CONSUMERS TO KNOW
WHEN THEY'RE LOOKING AT A
PLANT-BASED BURGER, LOOK FOR
THOSE WITH WHOLE, REAL FOOD
INGREDIENTS.

The caption changes to "Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live."

Steve says I GET CONVENIENCE,
ADAM, AND I GET YOUR
UNDERSTANDING THAT YOU WANT TO
BE RECEPTIVE TO THE NEEDS OF
YOUR CONSUMERS, BUT WHERE IS
SORT OF... I'M PUTTING WORDS IN
YOUR MOUTH A LITTLE BIT, ROSIE,
BUT WHERE DOES TRUTH IN
ADVERTISING COME IN ALL OF THIS?

Adam says I THINK CONSUMERS ARE
DEMANDING 100 percent TRANSPARENCY.
AT MAPLE LEAF AND EVEN YOU SEE
IT RIGHT NOW IN WHAT WE SHOW IN
OUR ADVERTISING, I THINK
CONSUMERS, THEY DON'T WANT TO BE
DUPED.
I AGREE.
AND SO FOR US, EVEN IN OUR
PRODUCT DESIGN, YOU KNOW, IN THE
LIGHT LIKE BURGER IN OUR CASE,
WE HAVE PROBABLY THE LOWEST AND
SMALLEST INGREDIENT PANEL OF ANY
OF THESE PRODUCTS THAT WE'VE
BEEN TALKING ABOUT TODAY, SO WE
HAVE A FUNDAMENTAL BELIEF THAT,
LOOK, IT'S AMAZING WHAT'S
HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.
FLEXITARIANISM,
REDUCITARRIANISM, WHATEVER YOU
WANT TO TERM IT, IS ON THE RISE,
AND I THINK IT'S GREAT FOR ALL
OF US AS CONSUMERS.
I GET TO HAVE GRILLED
VEGETABLES.
I GET TO HAVE A VEGGIE DOG OR I
CAN HAVE A REAL TOP DOG.
WHATEVER IT IS THAT YOU WANT TO
HAVE, I MEAN, I THINK IT'S
AMAZING THAT IT'S AVAILABLE IN
THIS COUNTRY RIGHT NOW.
AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE EXCITED
ABOUT.

Steve says BUT YOU GOT TO KNOW
WHAT YOU'RE EATING.

Adam says HUNDRED PER CENT, AND AS
SUPPLIERS, IT'S OUR
RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE SURE THAT
WE ARE TRANSPARENT, THAT WE HAVE
100 percent INFORMATION THAT'S
AVAILABLE TO THE CONSUMER.
WE EXPLAIN NOT ONLY THE
INGREDIENTS, BUT WHY IT'S THERE
AND WHERE IT'S FROM.
AND THEN THAT'S... YOU KNOW, IN
OUR BELIEF FUNDAMENTALLY WHAT
THE CONSUMER DESERVES.

Steve says LISA, LET ME BRING YOU
IN ON... I WANT TO EXPLORE
ANOTHER AREA IN THIS
CONVERSATION, AND THAT IS THE
EFFECT ON THE ENVIRONMENT.
AND WE KNOW THAT OBVIOUSLY IN
TERMS OF CLIMATE CHANGE, IN
TERMS OF THE INTENSITY IN THE
RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN RAISING
BEEF AND HAVING STEAK,
ET CETERA, IT'S INTENSE.
AND I WONDER IF YOU HAVE ANY
SORT OF EMPIRICALLY PROVABLE
KNOWLEDGE ON WHETHER OR NOT SOME
PEOPLE ARE MAKING THE SWITCH TO
THESE ALTERNATIVE PRODUCTS
BECAUSE THEY THINK IT'S LESS
HARMFUL TO THE CLIMATE, LESS
HARMFUL ON THE ENVIRONMENT.

The caption changes to "Environmentally friendly?"

Lisa says WHEN WE WERE LOOKING AT A
RESULT FROM OUR CROSS-CANADA
SURVEY, WE WERE ACTUALLY QUITE
SURPRISED TO SEE THAT THE NUMBER
ONE REASON WHY THOSE THAT SAY
THEY WANT TO SWITCH TO MORE
PROTEIN ALTERNATIVES,
PLANT-BASED PROTEIN
ALTERNATIVES, THE NUMBER ONE
CONCERN WAS ABOUT THE
ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT OF ANIMAL
PRODUCTS.
THAT ACTUALLY WAS A HIGHER
RANKING THAN HEALTH.
SO CONSUMERS ARE BECOMING MORE
AWARE, AND I THINK JUST TO TOUCH
ON THE DISCUSSION THAT WAS
HAPPENING BEFORE, YES, WE NEED
CLARITY AND TRANSPARENCY, BUT
CONSUMERS ARE VERY SAVVY, AND
THEY WILL FIND INFORMATION AND
THEY WILL SEEK OUT INFORMATION
ABOUT VARIOUS FOODS AND TOPICS
IF THEY CHOOSE TO DO SO.
SO CONSUMERS ARE VERY AWARE OF
MARKETING AND LABELLING AND THE
IMPACT OF VARIOUS FOODS ON THE
ENVIRONMENT OR ON THEIR HEALTH.
AND I THINK WE NEED TO GIVE
CONSUMERS CREDIT FOR THE
INFORMATION THAT THEY FIND
THEMSELVES AND THE INFORMATION
THAT'S AVAILABLE.
BUT YEAH, HORMONES IN MEAT WAS
ANOTHER HIGH RANKING ISSUE THAT
CONSUMERS WERE WORRIED ABOUT.
SO AGAIN, THIS IS COMING BACK TO
HEALTH, BUT ALSO RELATED TO THE
ENVIRONMENT.

Steve says DANA, LET ME FOLLOW UP
WITH YOU ON THAT.
HOW MUCH MORE ENVIRONMENTALLY
FRIENDLY IS IT TO GO WITH
PLANT-BASED AS OPPOSED TO HONEST
TO GOODNESS BEEF?

Dana says WELL, YOU KNOW, I DON'T HAVE
THE NUMBERS TOP OF MIND, BUT
ACROSS THE SCALE FROM WATER USE
TO ENERGY USE AND LAND USE,
THERE'S SIGNIFICANT, SIGNIFICANT
BENEFIT IN GOING WITH SOMETHING
PLANT-BASED.
ALSO WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE
FACT THAT BY 2050, W.H.O. IS
SAYING WE'RE GOING TO HAVE 9
BILLION PEOPLE ON THE PLANET AND
THAT THE DEMAND FOR ANIMAL
PRODUCTS, IF WE DON'T START
EATING MORE PLANT-BASED FOODS,
WILL GO UP BY ABOUT 70 percent, WELL,
GEE, YOU KNOW, HOW CAN WE EVEN
HAVE THAT KIND OF ANIMAL
AGRICULTURE INTENSITY?
CAN WE EVEN MAKE THAT HAPPEN IF
WE DON'T WANT TO START EATING
MORE PLANT-BASED FOODS?
SO IN SOME WAYS WE DON'T HAVE A
CHOICE.
WE REALLY NEED TO TAKE THIS
ROAD.

Steve says IT BEHOOVES US TO FIND
AN ALTERNATIVE.

Dana chuckles and says IT BEHOOVES, US, YES, WELL PLAYED.

Steve says CAN YOU WEIGH IN ON
THIS ISSUE ON HOW
ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY THIS IS
OPPOSED TO THE REAL DEAL.

Adam says DANA HAS IT RIGHT.
AS AN INDUSTRY WE HAVE TO LOOK
OURSELVES IN THE MIRROR.
RAISING CATTLE BETWEEN WATER USE
AND LAND USE AND WHAT WE DO WITH
THE WASTE IS A BIG ENVIRONMENTAL
CONCERN, AND WE'VE BEEN ON
PUBLIC RECORD TO SAY THAT
ACTUALLY WE WANT TO DO SOMETHING
ABOUT IT.
WE HAVE SOME VERY SPECIFIC
TARGETS TO MAKE REDUCTIONS IN
THAT AREA.
SO I THINK LISA MADE A GREAT
POINT.
I THINK CONSUMERS ARE VERY AWARE
OF THAT.
THEY ARE MAKING THE CHOICES
THEIR MAKING FOR A NUMBER OF
REASONS.
I THINK THE LARGEST ONE IS
AROUND VARIETY AND THEIR
INTEREST IN TRYING NEW THINGS,
BUT THERE'S HEALTH AND THERE'S
ENVIRONMENTAL CONCERN.
AND SO ON ALL THOSE MEASURES
WE'RE... IT BEHOOVES US TO MAKE
SURE THAT WE'RE DOING SOMETHING
ABOUT IT.

Steve says GOTCHA.
LISA, LET ME GO FIRST TO YOU ON THIS.
I DON'T WANT TO GET TOO TOUCHY
FEELY HERE, BUT IS THIS SYMBOLIC
OF A STRUCTURAL SHIFT IN THE WAY
THAT WE VALUE MEAT?

The caption changes to "A meatless future?"

Lisa says I THINK THIS IS THE BEGINNING
OF MAJOR CHANGE.
THE PROLIFERATION OF PLANT-BASED
FOOD AND MEATS HAS BEEN
HAPPENING IN EUROPE FOR OVER 10
YEARS AND HAS TAKEN UP A
SIGNIFICANT PART OF THE MARKET,
THE PROTEIN MARKET IN EUROPE,
ACROSS EUROPE.
SO I THINK IT'S JUST A MATTER OF
TIME BEFORE NORTH AMERICA
CATCHES UP TO THOSE, THAT LEVEL
OF MARKET INFILTRATION.
I DO SEE THIS AS A SHIFT,
PARTIALLY BECAUSE OF CONSUMER
AWARENESS REGARDING CLIMATE
CHANGE AND INDUSTRIALIZED MEAT
PRODUCTION, BUT ALSO THE
LINKS BETWEEN MEAT CONSUMPTION
AND HEALTH, AND I DON'T THINK
EVIDENCE-BASED RESEARCH
REGARDING THOSE TWO ISSUES IS
GOING ANYWHERE.
I THINK IF ANYTHING IT'S JUST
BECOMING MORE AND MORE WIDELY
AVAILABLE TO THE AVERAGE
CANADIAN CONSUMER.

Steve says WELL, THIS IS A KEY THING.
I MEAN, DANA, IS THIS A TECTONIC
SHIFT IN THE WAY PEOPLE LOOK AT
THINGS OR IS THIS A FAD AND IT
MAY FADE OUT?

Dana says THERE WILL BE PEOPLE WHO TRY
THESE PRODUCTS AND THEN JUST GO
BACK TO THEIR OLD HABITS, BUT
THAT SAID, EVEN IF YOU JUST LOOK
AT THE PER OUNCE PRICE OR THE
PER GRAM PRICE OF MOST ANIMAL
PROTEINS, IT'S GONE UP EVERY
YEAR, AND IF THAT TREND
CONTINUES, WHICH IT PROBABLY
WILL BECAUSE, OF COURSE, YOU
KNOW, ALL THE INPUTS ARE GETTING
MORE EXPENSIVE, YOU KNOW, IT'S
GOING TO BE THAT AS THE MARKET
PENETRATION INCREASES FOR THE
PLANT-BASED PRODUCTS THAT THEIR
PRICES ARE POTENTIALLY GOING TO
COME DOWN, ESPECIALLY HERE IN
CANADA WHERE WE ALREADY HAVE,
YOU KNOW, A GREAT PULSE INDUSTRY
THAT WE EXPORT MOST OF.
IF WE START KEEPING IT AND
PROCESSING IT, WE SHOULD BE ABLE
TO BECOME MORE EFFICIENT.
WE MIGHT GET TO THE POINT WHERE,
YOU KNOW, MEAT IS A CELEBRATION
FOOD.
MY BIRTHDAY, I'M GOING TO HAVE
REAL MEAT, AND YOU KNOW, THE
SAME WAY WE TREAT SOMETHING
LIKE, SAY, CHAMPAGNE NOW.
WE SPLURGE ON A ROAST FOR
CHRISTMAS OR A HOLIDAY.

Steve says SPECIAL OCCASION.

Dana says EXACTLY.
A HUNDRED YEARS FROM NOW I
WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED IF THAT'S THE CASE.

Steve says YOU'RE THE DIETICIAN
HERE, SO LET ME ASK YOU THIS:
WHAT IS SOMETHING PEOPLE SHOULD
KEEP IN MIND IF THEY ARE
THINKING ABOUT CUTTING DOWN ON
THEIR MEAT CONSUMPTION.

Rosie says THAT THEY REPLACE THE MEAT
WITH MORE WHOLE FOODS.
SO AS DANA SAID, THE PULSE
INDUSTRY, THE PULSE FARMERS, WE
GROW LENTILS, WE GROW ALL THESE
FABULOUS INGREDIENTS, AND I
THINK IF AS CANADIANS WE LOOK TO
HOW WE SHOULD BE PREPARING THESE
FOODS AND DOING IT QUICKLY.
SOME OF THESE FOODS ARE JUST AS
FAST AS A VEGGIE BURGER.
AND I THINK IF WE'RE LOOKING FOR
MORE OF THESE FOODS AND THEN
MAYBE THE OCCASIONAL BURGER, THE
PLANT-BASED BURGER, THEN I THINK
NUTRITIONALLY THAT WOULD BE
GREAT, BUT I THINK IN THAT SHIFT
TOWARDS A MORE PLANT-BASED DIET,
WE NEED TO LOOK AT WHAT WE'RE
REPLACING MEAT WITH, AND RIGHT
NOW I'M NOT SURE THAT CONSUMERS
ARE GETTING THAT.
THEY THINK THAT IF THEY'RE NOT
EATING MEAT THAT GOING FOR A
PLANT-BASED BURGER IS THE NEXT
BEST THING.
AND AS A DIETICIAN, I WOULD LIKE
TO SEE LENTILS ON THE TABLE, CHICKPEAS
CHICKPEAS, KIDNEY BEANS AND IN
WAYS THAT CAN BE REALLY DELICIOUS.

Steve says YOU HIT ON WHERE I
WANTED TO FOLLOW UP.
YOU ALWAYS GIVE US THE STRAIGHT
GOODS, RIGHT?
YOU WOULD NEVER FUDGE WITH US, RIGHT?

Rosie says RIGHT.

Steve says ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL
ME THAT A PULSE TASTES AS GOOD
AS A HAMBURGER?

Rosie says IT DEPENDS ON WHO YOU ARE,
BUT THE THING IS, WOULD YOU BE
EATING A HAMBURGER EVERY DAY?
YOU WOULDN'T BE DOING THAT, AND
SO... I MEAN, WHEN WE LOOK AT
TRADITIONAL DIETS THAT HAVE BEEN
KNOWN TO BE HEALTHY, THE
MEDITERRANEAN DIET, THE
MEDITERRANEAN DIET IS NOT BASED
ON HAVING A HUGE HUNK OF MEAT ON
YOUR PLATE.
THE MEDITERRANEAN DIET IS WHERE
THE MEAT IS THE GARNISH, IF IT'S
BEING USED.
BUT THERE ARE BEANS AND LENTILS
AND WHOLE GRAINS AND LOTS OF
FRUITS AND VEGETABLES AND NUTS
AND SEEDS.
SO WE'VE SEEN ALL THE RESEARCH
ON THE MEDITERRANEAN DIET, AND
THAT IS MORE OF A PLANT-BASED
EATING PLAN.

Steve says MM-HM.
LISA, TELL ME THIS: CAN YOU
IMAGINE A DAY WHERE HUMANS ARE
ESSENTIALLY MEAT FREE?

Lisa says WOW, THAT'S A TOUGH QUESTION.
I WOULD SAY AS OF NOW, NO.
NOT ANY TIME IN THE NEAR FUTURE.
I THINK POSSIBLY MORE PEOPLE
WILL MOVE TO A MORE FLEXITARIAN
TYPE DIETARY LIFESTYLE WITH
USING MEAT FOR THE OCCASIONAL
CELEBRATORY MEALS, OR OCCASIONAL
MEAT CONSUMPTION.
BUT I DON'T SEE ALL MEAT
CONSUMPTION GOING AWAY IN THE
NEAR FUTURE.

Steve says OKAY.
DANA, HOW ABOUT YOU ON THAT?
DO YOU IMAGINE A DAY WHEN WE'RE
MEAT FREE?

Dana says PROBABLY NOT IN THE
FORESEEABLE FUTURE, NO.
I REALLY DON'T.
I THINK MEAT AND MEAT PRODUCTS
HAVE A PLACE.
I MEAN, WHEN YOU JUST THINK
ABOUT THE ROLE THAT, FOR
INSTANCE, EGGS PLAY IN BAKING
AND, YOU KNOW, STRUCTURAL FOOD
CHEMISTRY OF A LOT OF THE FOODS
WE LIKE, IT'S GOING TO BE VERY,
VERY DIFFICULT TO TOTALLY GET
ANIMAL PRODUCTS OUT OF THE
SUPPLY CHAIN.
BUT I DO THINK THAT, YOU KNOW,
IT'S... THAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE
MORE VARIETY AND THAT WE'RE
GOING TO EAT LESS MEAT.
AND I LOVE WHAT ROSIE SAID ABOUT
THE MEDITERRANEAN DIET.
I LOOK TO, YOU KNOW, LIKE THE
JAPANESE, THE KOREAN DIET.
AGAIN, MEAT IS THERE AND IT'S
VERY DELICIOUS AND IT'S VERY
CAREFULLY PREPARED, BUT IT'S A
SMALLER PORTION TO GO WITH ALL
THE OTHER THINGS.
AND I THINK THAT'S ALREADY
HAPPENED.
AS A KID, MY MOM MADE EVERYBODY
A FULL STEAK.
NOW WE'RE A FAMILY OF THREE, WE
MAKE ONE STEAK AND CUT IT INTO,
YOU KNOW, ENOUGH FOR ALL OF US.

Steve says ADAM, LET ME GIVE YOU
THE LAST WORD ON THIS, AND THAT
IS, AGAIN, IF YOU'RE A
SUSTAINABLE PROTEIN COMPANY, AS
OPPOSED TO A MEAT COMPANY, CAN
YOU IMAGINE MAPLE LEAF FOODS SAY
IN 25 OR 50 YEARS KIND OF BEING
OUT OF THE MEAT BUSINESS AND
INTO ALTERNATIVES ONLY?

Adam says I DON'T FORESEE IT, PER SE.
IT'S HARD TO PREDICT THE FUTURE.
I THINK THERE IS PARTS OF THE
POPULATION THAT, YOU KNOW,
SHOULD BE MODERATING THEIR MEAT
CONSUMPTION, AND THAT'S A FACT.
OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD WHERE
THEY'RE NOT GETTING ENOUGH MEAT.
MEAT CONSUMPTION, PROTEIN
CONSUMPTION ACROSS THE GLOBE
RIGHT NOW IS ACCELERATING AT A
RAPID PACE, SO I THINK... I ALSO
SUBSCRIBE TO THE NOTION THAT
IT'S ABOUT BALANCE AND
MODERATION, AND I THINK IT'S
IMPORTANT THAT CONSUMERS HAVE
THE INFORMATION TO MAKE
DECISIONS AND CHOICES, WHETHER
IT'S LENTILS OR, YOU KNOW, A
PEA-BASED HAMBURGER.
AT THE END OF THE DAY THAT'S A
GREAT CHOICE TO BE ABLE TO MAKE.

The caption changes to "Producer: Katie O'Connor, @KA_OConnor."

Steve says OKAY. THAT'S OUR TIME,
EVERYBODY. I WANT TO THANK YOU
FOR COMING ONTO TVO TONIGHT
STARTING WITH LISA CLARK AT
THE UNIVERSITY OF SASKATCHEWAN,
ROSIE SCHWARTZ, THE CONSULTING
DIETICIAN, DANA McCAULEY FROM
THE UNIVERSITY OF GUELPH,
ADAM GROGAN, MAPLE LEAF FOODS.
THANKS SO MUCH, EVERYBODY.

The caption changes to "Subscribe to The Agenda Podcast: tvo.org/theagenda."

All the guests say THANK YOU.

Watch: The Rise of Plant-Based Meat