Transcript: Should Peel Region Remain Whole? | Jun 17, 2019

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a blue suit, white shirt, and spotted blue tie.

A caption on screen reads "Should Peel Region remain whole? @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says WHEN THE FORD
GOVERNMENT ANNOUNCED ITS REVIEW
OF REGIONAL MUNICIPALITIES IN
ONTARIO, SOME CELEBRATED.
OTHERS, NOT SO MUCH.
IT'S FRAUGHT WHENEVER
AMALGAMATION AND SUCH COMES UP
FOR REVIEW.
BRAMPTON, PART OF PEEL REGION,
ISN'T AMONG THOSE EAGER FOR A
CHANGE.
PATRICK BROWN IS THE MAYOR OF
THAT CITY, AND HE JOINS US NOW
FOR MORE.

Patrick is in his forties, clean-shaven, with short brown hair. He's wearing a black suit, white shirt, and blue tie.

Steve continues YOUR WORSHIP, GOOD TO SEE YOU HERE.

Patrick says GREAT TO BE BACK.

Steve says I'D LIKE TO KNOW OFF
THE TOP WHAT'S BRAMPTON'S VIEW
ON MISSISSAUGA'S DESIRE TO QUIT
PEEL.

The caption changes to "Patrick Brown. Mayor of Brampton."
Then, it changes again to "Goodbye Mississauga?"

Patrick says THIS HAS BEEN A LONG-STANDING
DESIRE IN MISSISSAUGA.
HAZEL McCALLION PUSHED THIS
BEFORE.
MY PERSONAL OPINION, REFLECTED
BY BRAMPTON CITY COUNCIL, IS THE
GREATEST PREMIER THIS PROVINCE
HAS EVER SEEN, BILL DAVIS, IN
HIS WISDOM IN 1974 REALIZED THAT
IT WOULD SAVE COSTS FOR
FAMILIES, FOR HOMEOWNERS, BY
SHARING SOME SERVICES, WHETHER
IT'S POLICING OR WASTE
MANAGEMENT.
I THINK THE WISDOM BILL DAVIS
SHOWED IN 1974 STILL HOLDS
TODAY, AND THE FACTS BACK IT UP.
AND SO IF IT ISN'T BROKEN, DON'T
TRY TO FIX IT.
YOU CAN ALWAYS IMPROVE IT, BUT I
THINK THE GENERAL CONCEPT OF
POOLING RESOURCES MADE SENSE IN
1974 AND MAKES SENSE TODAY.

Steve says THAT WAS 45 YEARS AGO.
THINGS HAVE CHANGED SINCE THEN.
DOESN'T NEED ANY TWEAKING?

Patrick says IT CAN ALWAYS USE SOME
TWEAKING AND ALWAYS LOOK FOR
EFFICIENCIES.
YOU CAN ALWAYS IMPROVE, BUT I
DON'T WANT TO HAVE THREE POLICE
FORCES.
I DON'T HAVE TO HAVE THREE WATER
TREATMENT CENTRES OR THREE WASTE
MANAGEMENT CONTRACTS.
I WANT TO GET THE BEST VALUE FOR
TAXPAYERS.
AT THE END OF THE DAY, I DON'T
WANT TO SEE TAX INCREASES ON
RESIDENTS IN MISSISSAUGA,
BRAMPTON OR CALEDON.
JUST LIKE BILL DAVIS LOOKED OUT
FOR THE TAXPAYER YEARS AGO, I
WANT TO LOOK OUT FOR THE
TAXPAYER.
I WANT TO MAKE SURE WE PROTECT
INTERESTS OF RESIDENTS
THROUGHOUT PEEL REGION.

Steve says ARE YOU CONVINCED
TAXES WOULD GO UP IF MISSISSAUGA
WERE TO SEPARATE?

The caption changes to "Patrick Brown, @patrickbrownont."

Patrick says SO WE HAVE TWO REPORTS RIGHT NOW.
THE FIRST ONE COMMISSIONED BY
THE REGION OF PEEL, THE DELOITTE
REPORT, SHOWED THAT IT WOULD BE
A BILLION DOLLARS IN NEW TAXES
IF YOU HAD TO PROVIDE THESE
SERVICES INDEPENDENTLY.
OBVIOUSLY IT COSTS MORE TO HAVE
A SMALLER CONTRACT THAN A BIGGER
CONTRACT.
MISSISSAUGA OBJECTED TO THE
DELOITTE REPORT.
THEY DIDN'T TRUST THE REPUTATION
OF DELOITTE, AND LET ME JUST SAY
AT THE STARTING POINT I THINK
DELOITTE IS WELL RECOGNIZED AS
BEING NON-PARTISAN AND
OBJECTIVE.
THE SECOND STUDY BY E and Y CANADA
SHOWS ESSENTIALLY THE SAME
THING.
THEY SAID THE RISK COULD BE UP
TO 157 MILLION DOLLARS IN EXPOSURE FOR
THE THREE MUNICIPALITIES.
IT SAID IF THE THREE
MUNICIPALITIES AGREED ON
EVERYTHING AND FOUND A USE FOR
ALL THE MUNICIPAL BUILDINGS THE
REGION CURRENTLY HAS, THEN MAYBE
THERE COULD BE SOME UPSIDE.
HAVING SAID THAT, WE DON'T HAVE
A USE FOR WHAT WOULD BE DEFUNCT
REGIONAL BUILDINGS, AND SO WE
HAVE TO LOOK AT THE EY NUMBER ON
THAT END, WHICH IS 750 MILLION DOLLARS,
AND WHETHER IT'S A BILLION DOLLARS OR
750 MILLION DOLLARS, I DON'T SUPPORT TAX INCREASES.
I'M NOT GOING TO SUPPORT
ANYTHING THAT'S GOING TO CAUSE
PRESSURE ON MY RESIDENTS.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Steve says OKAY, BUT IN FAIRNESS,
BOTH YOU AND MAYOR CROMBIE ARE
PLUCKING VARIOUS THINGS OUT OF
BOTH OF THESE REPORTS THAT
SUPPORT YOUR PARTICULAR
POSITIONS ON THIS, AND I
GUARANTEE YOU 99.9 percent OF THE
PEOPLE WATCHING US RIGHT NOW
HAVEN'T READ EITHER ONE OF THESE
REPORTS.
SO LET'S JUST TRY AND BARE BONES
IT HERE, IF WE CAN.
IF MISSISSAUGA WERE TO LEAVE
PEEL, WHAT WOULD THAT DO TO
BRAMPTON?

Patrick says BASED ON THE REPORT DONE BY
DELOITTE AND EY CANADA, IT SAYS TAXES WOULD GO UP IN
MISSISSAUGA, BRAMPTON AND
CALEDON, AND THAT'S WHY I CAN'T
SUPPORT BLOWING THE REGION UP.
I CAN'T SUPPORT TAX INCREASES.
BRAMPTON THIS YEAR WAS THE ONLY
BIG CITY, THE ONLY BIG CITY IN
CANADA TO COME IN WITH A TAX
FREEZE.
I WANT TO KEEP THAT UP.
I WANT TO HAVE FOUR YEARS OF TAX
FREEZES SO I CAN GET OUT THERE
AND HAVE AGGRESSIVE ECONOMIC
DEVELOPMENT.
I WANT TO BRING INDUSTRY TO
BRAMPTON AND SKYROCKETING TAXES
IN ONTARIO MUNICIPALITIES IS A
RECIPE FOR DISASTER WHEN IT
COMES TO ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT.

Steve says HERE'S MAYOR CROMBIE
WRITING IN THE "TORONTO STAR."
LAST MONTH. SHE WRITES...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Not fair or democratic?" The quote reads "Mississauga has consistently provided over 60 percent of the region's funding, and at times as high as 77 percent. Yet, despite providing the lion's share of the funding and having more than 50 percent of the population, Mississauga doesn't get an equitable, fair say at the decision-making table. With five regional councillors for 70,000 people (that's the size of one Ward in Mississauga!), one vote from Caledon is worth four times that of Mississauga or Brampton. This is not fair or democratic."
Quoted from Bonnie Crombie, Toronto Star. May 7, 2019.

Steve says THIS IS NOT FAIR OR DEMOCRATIC, says THE MAYOR OF MISSISSAUGA.
WHAT DOES THE MAYOR OF BRAMPTON SAY?

The caption changes to "A special relationship."

Patrick says WELL, I'D LIKE TO HAVE
GREATER REPRESENTATION FOR
BRAMPTON.
BRAMPTON HAS THE LOWEST
REPRESENTATION BY VIRTUE OF
POPULATION, AND SURE I'D LIKE TO
SEE THAT LOOKED AT IN TERMS OF
HOW THE SEATS ARE ALLOCATED ON
THE REGION.
I'M NOT SAYING YOU CAN'T IMPROVE
THE REGION.
BUT IN TERMS OF MISSISSAUGA'S
CONTRIBUTIONS, THE MAYOR OF
MISSISSAUGA IS USING A FIGURE
FROM 2003.
WE'RE IN 2019.
TO USE FIGURES THAT ARE 16 YEARS
OLD IS A DISSERVICE TO RESIDENTS
IN ALL OUR COMMUNITIES.
I THINK WE SHOULD ONLY BE USING
DATA THAT IS BASED ON THIS YEAR.
IF YOU LOOKED AT BRAMPTON'S
POPULATION IN 2003 COMPARED TO
TODAY, WHEN MISSISSAUGA'S
POPULATION HAS ONLY GONE UP
MARGINALLY, BRAMPTON'S HAS
PRACTICALLY DOUBLED.
WE HAVE SEEN EXPLOSIVE
POPULATION GROWTH IN BRAMPTON,
AND THAT'S WHY I DON'T THINK WE
SHOULD ENGAGE IN ANY
MISINFORMATION.
I THINK WE NEED TO DEAL WITH FACTS.

Steve says OKAY, YOUR POPULATION
UNQUESTIONABLY HAS EXPLODED OVER
THE LAST MANY YEARS.
MISSISSAUGA BELIEVES THAT IT IS
SUBSIDIZING MUCH OF THE
DEVELOPMENT THAT IS HAPPENING IN
MISSISSAUGA GIVEN THE NATURE OF
THE WAY THE THINGS WORK RIGHT NOW.

Patrick says THAT'S NOT WHAT THE FACTS IN
THE DELOITTE AND THE EY CANADA
REPORT SAYS.
IT SAYS IT WOULD BE A LOSS FOR
MISSISSAUGA.
MISSISSAUGA WOULD HAVE TO PAY
MORE IF THEY BLEW UP THE REGION,
AND SO I GET THAT ARGUMENT MIGHT
HAVE HELD IN 2003.
IT DOESN'T TODAY, AND THAT'S WHY
BRAMPTON COUNCIL PASSED A
RESOLUTION SAYING LET'S LOOK FOR
EFFICIENCIES IN THE REGION.
LET'S LOOK AT WAYS TO IMPROVE
THE REGION, BUT LET'S NOT BREAK
THE MODEL BILL DAVIS BUILT IN
1974.

Steve says IF MISSISSAUGA WERE TO
BE GIVEN PERMISSION BY THE
PROVINCE TO QUIT PEEL REGION,
WHICH IS ULTIMATELY WHO HAS TO
GIVE THE AUTHORITY, THIS IS
NOTHING YOU GUYS CAN DO, RIGHT?
YOU NEED THE PROVINCE TO SAY SO.
SHOULD MISSISSAUGA HAVE TO
COMPENSATE OR PAY CALEDON AND
BRAMPTON FOR THAT PRIVILEGE?

Patrick says SO RIGHT NOW WE HAVE A LEGAL
OPINION FROM DENTON THAT SHOWED
VERY CLEARLY THAT MISSISSAUGA
WOULD BE ON THE HOOK.
THEY WOULD BE FINANCIALLY
LIABLE.
I CAN'T SPEAK TO WHAT THEY WOULD
OWE CALEDON, BUT HE'D CERTAINLY
BE IN A SITUATION WHERE THERE
WOULD BE LITIGATION.
FOR YEARS WE'VE CONTRIBUTED TO
BUILD MISSISSAUGA'S
INFRASTRUCTURE, THEIR REGIONAL
ROADS.
WE HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE
BEAUTIFUL WATER TREATMENT CENTRE
THAT'S IN MISSISSAUGA.
THE POLICE HEADQUARTERS FOR THE
PEEL POLICE, WHICH WE HAVE PAID
FOR, WE HAVE BUILT, IS IN
MISSISSAUGA.
AND SO OBVIOUSLY THERE WOULD BE
A BIG BILL THAT MISSISSAUGA
WOULD HAVE TO PAY.
I'M NOT SURE HOW THEY COULD
AFFORD THAT COST.
MISSISSAUGA STILL NEEDS TO
PRESENT THAT PLAN OF HOW THEY
COULD COMPENSATE OTHER
MUNICIPALITIES.
THEY HAVEN'T EXPLAINED THAT.
SO YEAH, THERE WOULD BE A
SIGNIFICANT COST.

Steve says WHERE'S PEEL REGION
HEADQUARTERS?

Patrick says PEEL REGION HEADQUARTERS IS
IN BRAMPTON.

Steve says RIGHT, SO THEY WOULD SAY
THAT...

The caption changes to "Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live."

Patrick says BUT THE DIFFERENCE IS YOU
COULD STILL USE THE POLICE
HEADQUARTERS.
THE CITY HEADQUARTERS WOULDN'T
HAVE EQUAL USE.
YOU'D HAVE TO SELL IT.

Steve says I ASKED MAYOR CROMBIE
THESE QUESTIONS SO I WANT TO ASK
THE SAME ONES TO YOU JUST TO
KEEP ON AN EVEN KEEL HERE.
HAVE YOU SPOKEN TO PREMIER FORD
ABOUT THIS AT ALL?

The caption changes to "The view from Queen's Park."

Patrick says SO I HAVEN'T SPOKEN TO THE
PREMIER ABOUT IT.
I'VE SPOKEN TO SOME MINISTERS.
OBVIOUSLY I HAVE A SERIES OF
DISAGREEMENTS WITH THE PREMIER.
WE'RE NOT ON TALKING TERMS, AND
FRANKLY I THINK BONNIE CROMBIE
HAS BEEN QUITE CLEVER ABOUT
THIS.
SHE HAS GONE OUT AND SHE'S BEEN
PLAYING CRICKET AND HOB KNOBBING
WITH THE PREMIER, TRYING TO
CURRY HIS FAVOUR, WHERE IN
BRAMPTON WE HAVE OBJECTED TO THE
PREMIER'S AGENDA.
WE HAVE OBJECTED TO THE CUTS TO
EDUCATION.
WE IS OBJECTED TO MUNICIPAL
DOWNLOADING.
MISSISSAUGA HAS BEEN MUTE ON THE
MUNICIPALITY DOWNLOADING.
I THINK THEY'RE TAKING A
DIFFERENT APPROACH.

Steve says WELL, SHE'S TRYING NOT
TO TICK HIM OFF LEST SHE NOT GET
HER WAY ON THIS.

Patrick says AND FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, WHEN I SEE SOMETHING THAT'S GOING
WRONG ON A PROVINCIAL LEVEL, I'M
GOING TO SPEAK UP.
I SPOKE UP ON AUTISM CUTS AND
EDUCATION CUTS.
I SPOKE UP ON MUNICIPAL
DOWNLOADING.
I'M NOT GOING TO PRETEND
EVERYTHING IS FINE SIMPLY TO GET
OUR WAY MUNICIPALLY.
AND BRAMPTON, WE'RE TAKING A
PRINCIPLED APPROACH TO THIS.
WE PUT THE FACTS ON THE RECORD.
WE HAVE SHOWN FACTUALLY THAT IF
YOU GET RID OF THE REGION IT
WILL COST... IT WILL RESULT IN A
TAX CREASE FOR MISSISSAUGA,
BRAMPTON AND CALEDON RESIDENTS,
BUT AT THE SAME TIME WE'RE
TAKING STRONG POSITIONS ON THE
ISSUES THAT MATTER TO THIS
PROVINCE AND TO OUR RESIDENTS OF
BRAMPTON.

Steve says I DON'T KNOW IF THIS
ANALOGY MAKES ANY SENSE, BUT LET
ME THROW IT OUT THERE ANYWAY.
SOME QUEBECERS WERE PREPARED TO
PAY MORE IN TAXES FOR THE RIGHT
TO BE AN INDEPENDENT COUNTRY.
AND YOU KNOW, FOR THEM IT WASN'T
ALL ABOUT THE ECONOMICS.
IT WAS SOMETHING ABOUT BEING ON
THEIR OWN.
OBVIOUSLY I'M TALKING ABOUT
SOVEREIGNTISTS WHO WOULD PREFER
TO PAY MORE TO BE ON THEIR OWN.
IF MISSISSAUGANS WANT TO PAY
MORE TO BE ON THEIR OWN, AND
THIS ISN'T TO SAY THAT THEY'D
HAVE TO, BUT IF THEY HAD TO,
SHOULD THEY BE ALLOWED THAT
CHOICE?

Patrick says ABSOLUTELY.
IF MISSISSAUGA RESIDENTS BELIEVE
THAT IT'S WORTH PAYING MORE TO
NOT BE ASSOCIATED WITH THE
REGION OF PEEL, THEN THEY HAVE
THAT RIGHT.
BUT I WOULD SAY TO MISSISSAUGA
RESIDENTS: YOUR TAXES ARE TOO
HIGH ALREADY.
YOU DO NOT DESERVE A TAX
INCREASE.
AND CRIME DOESN'T STOP AT THE
MISSISSAUGA-BRAMPTON BORDER.
I LIKE HAVING A PEEL POLICE.
I LIKE HAVING A COORDINATED
RESPONSE TO CRIME.

Steve says BUT MISSISSAUGA COULD
JUST CONTRACT SERVICES FROM PEEL
POLICE IN THE SAME WAY THEY USED TO.

The caption changes to "Goodbye Mississauga?"

Patrick says DO YOU THINK WE'D STAND FOR
HAVING OUR POLICE HEADQUARTERS
IN A DIFFERENT CITY?
THERE'S NO OTHER CASE LIKE THAT
IN THE COUNTRY.
IF YOU BLOW UP THE REGION,
YOU'RE BLOWING UP THE PEEL
POLICE, AND I THINK IT MAKES
SENSE TO SHARE THESE SERVICES.
THE WATER TREATMENT CENTRE, YOU
KNOW.
IT SAVED US SIGNIFICANT
RESOURCES BECAUSE WE'VE ALL
CONTRIBUTED TO THAT.
I REALLY THINK IT MAY BE A NICE
SOUND BITE, NIS POLITICAL
RHETORIC SAYING WE WANT TO BE
INDEPENDENT, BUT YOU ARE
INDEPENDENT.
WE JUST POOL RESOURCES AT THE
REGIONAL LEVEL TO SAVE FUNDS FOR
TAXPAYERS, AND I THINK IT COMES
TO THIS: DO YOU WANT TO ENGAGE
IN POLITICAL RHETORIC THAT MIGHT
SOUND NICE OR DO YOU WANT TO
SUPPORT THE BEST BOTTOM LINE FOR
YOUR RESIDENTS?
AND THE BEST BOTTOM LINE FOR
RESIDENTS IN MISSISSAUGA, IN
BRAMPTON AND IN CALEDON, WITH
TWO EVIDENCE-BASED REPORTS
SUPPORTING THIS, SAYS VERY
CLEARLY KEEP THE REGION
TOGETHER.
MAINTAIN BILL DAVIS'S LEGACY,
AND PUT TAXPAYERS FIRST.

Steve says YOU'RE DEFINITELY
GOING TO WIN THE PRIZE FOR
MENTIONING BILL DAVIS'S NAME THE
MOST.
HERE IN THE BILL DAVIS STUDIO.

Patrick says I'M A BIT OF A FAN.

Steve says WE GET THAT.
TELL ME THIS.
A LOT OF PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT
HISTORY IS BIOGRAPHY, AND AT THE
MOMENT, HER PERSONAL
RELATIONSHIP WITH THE PREMIER OF
ONTARIO AND THE MINISTER OF
MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS IS A LOT
BETTER THAN YOURS.
DO YOU THINK IT'S POSSIBLE THAT
AT THE END OF THE DAY THIS
DECISION IS GOING TO BE MADE ON
THE BASIS OF THE FACTS OR ON THE
BASIS OF YOUR REALLY TERRIBLE
RELATIONSHIP WITH THE CURRENT
PREMIER OF ONTARIO?

Patrick says LET ME SAY I'VE GOT A GOOD
RELATIONSHIP WITH MOST
MINISTERS.
I HEAR FROM THE MINISTER OF
MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS.

Steve says STEVE CLARK.

Patrick says REGULARLY BS AND FRANKLY I
THINK HE'S A VERY COMPETENT
INDIVIDUAL, AND I DO THINK HE'LL
DO HIS RESEARCH.
IN TERMS OF MISSISSAUGA'S
MAYOR'S APPROACH TO SUCK UP TO
THE PREMIER, TO TRY TO CURRY
FAVOUR, THAT'S NOT SOMETHING I'M
GOING TO ENGAGE IN, AND FRANKLY
I HOPE THE PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT
WILL MAKE THIS DECISION BASED ON
WHAT'S BEST FOR TAXPAYERS, NOT
WHO'S TRYING TO CURRY FAVOUR THE
MOST.
THIS SHOULD BE ABOUT TAXPAYERS,
NOT ABOUT PEOPLE'S PAST HISTORY
OR PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS.

Steve says YOU SAY THAT'S WHAT IT
SHOULD BE ABOUT.
BUT ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT YOUR
BAD RELATIONSHIP WITH THE
PREMIER WILL AT THE END OF THE
DAY BE A DECISIVE FACTOR HERE?

Patrick says I BELIEVE I'M ON THE RIGHT
SIDE OF THE ISSUE, SO WHERE I
HAVE DISAGREEMENTS WITH THE
PREMIER AND SO WOULD I CHANGE
ANYTHING?
NO.
HAVING SAID THAT, IF HE... IF
THE PREMIER MAKES A DECISION
THAT HURTS TAXPAYERS, I THINK IT
WILL BE HIS OWN LOSS.
IF HE TAKES A DECISION THAT
RESULTS IN MUNICIPAL TAXES GOING
UP ACROSS MISSISSAUGA WHERE HE
HAS FIVE SEATS, I THINK
RESIDENTS WILL BE UPSET.
IF HE MAKES A DECISION THAT
RESULTS IN TAXES GOING UP IN
BRAMPTON AND CALEDON, WHERE HE
HAS THREE SEATS, I THINK PEOPLE
WOULD BE UPSET.
AND SO I THINK ULTIMATELY HE
NEEDS TO DECIDE WHETHER THE
PERSONAL DISAGREEMENTS I HAVE
WITH DOUG FORD OUTWEIGH HIS OWN
POLITICAL AGENDA.
AND HE TELLS US HE WANTS TO LOOK
AFTER TAXPAYERS.
HE HAS AN OPPORTUNITY TO HOLD
THE LINE ON TAXES FOR
MUNICIPALITIES, OR HE CAN ENGAGE
IN CHANGES TO MUNICIPALITIES
THAT WILL RESULT IN DOWNLOADING
AN ADDITIONAL COST TO
MUNICIPALITIES.
AND I HOPE HE DOES WHAT'S RIGHT
FOR TAXPAYERS.

The caption changes to "Producer: Katie O'Connor, @KA_OConnor."

Steve says THAT'S PATRICK BROWN,
THE MAYOR OF BRAMPTON. WE'RE
GRATEFUL THAT YOU MADE... HOW
LONG DID IT TAKE YOU TO GET HERE
TODAY? TWO AND A HALF HOURS?

Patrick says TRAFFIC IS A PROBLEM.

The caption changes to "Subscribe to The Agenda Podcast: tvo.org/theagenda."

Steve says TELL ME ABOUT IT.
WELL, HOWEVER LONG IT TOOK,
WE'RE GRATEFUL YOU MANAGED TO
MAKE IT HERE TO YONGE AND
EGLINTON IN THE MIDDLE OF
TORONTO. THANKS SO MUCH.

Patrick says MY PLEASURE.

Watch: Should Peel Region Remain Whole?