Transcript: Toronto: A Charter City? | May 01, 2019

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a blue suit, white shirt, and purple tie.

A caption on screen reads "Changing Toronto's governing power. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says BECAUSE ONTARIO'S
CAPITAL CITY IS BIGGER THAN MOST
CANADIAN PROVINCES, SOME PEOPLE
THINK IT OUGHT TO HAVE A
DIFFERENT AND, YES, MORE
INFLUENTIAL SAY IN ITS OWN
AFFAIRS.
THEY WOULD LIKE TORONTO TO
BECOME A SO-CALLED "CHARTER
CITY."
HOW WOULD SUCH A STATUS CHANGE
LIFE IN THE 416?
LET'S ASK:
DOUG EARL, WHO IS ON THE CHARTER
CITY TORONTO STEERING COMMITTEE...

Doug is in his sixties, clean-shaven, with short gray hair. He's wearing a brown suit and a beige shirt.

Steve continues AND TRICIA WOOD, PROFESSOR OF
GEOGRAPHY AND CO-FOUNDER OF THE
CITY INSTITUTE AT YORK UNIVERSITY.

Tricia is in her fifties, with chin-length wavy gray hair. She's wearing a gray cardigan and a red blouse.

Steve continues GOOD TO SEE YOU TWO HERE IN OUR
STUDIO.
THANKS FOR COMING IN.
START US OFF.
WHAT'S A CHARTER CITY?

The caption changes to "Tricia Wood. York University."
Then, it changes again to "Fighting for influence."

Tricia says A CHARTER CITY
IN THIS INSTANCE OR WHATEVER
IT'S REALLY FOCUSED ON IS
BASICALLY GETTING SOME KIND OF
HOME ROLE FOR A LOCAL DEMOCRACY.
IN SOME CASES WHAT WE HAD AND
STILL HAVE TO A CERTAIN EXTENT
WITH THE CITY OF TORONTO ACT,
WHAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR NOW IS
SOMETHING THAT HAS A LITTLE BIT
MORE AUTONOMY, MAKE IT A LITTLE
BIT MORE DIFFICULT FOR THE
PROVINCE TO TAKE THINGS AWAY
WITHOUT OUR CONSENT.

Steve says YOU HAVE A CUTE WAY
OF DESCRIBING IT.
TORONTO IS A 21ST CENTURY CITY
WITH 19TH CENTURY HANDCUFFS ON.
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

The caption changes to "Doug Earl. Charter City Toronto."

Doug says THE ARRANGEMENTS
THAT WERE ESTABLISHED IN 1867,
CONFEDERATION, WHICH OUTLINED
BETWEEN THE MUNICIPALITIES AND
THE PROVINCE ARE THE SAME THAT
EXIST TODAY.
BUT SO MUCH HAS CHANGED.
BECAUSE IN 1867, 20 PERCENT OF
CANADIANS LIVED IN CITIES AND
80 percent IN THE AREA AROUND THEM.
NOW IT'S REVERSED.
80 PERCENT OF CANADIANS LIVE IN
CITIES, LIKE TORONTO.
ONE IN FIVE CANADIANS LIVE IN
THE GREATER TORONTO AREA.
AND YET BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T...
WELL, AT THE TIME IT WASN'T
DEEMED NECESSARY TO GIVE CITIES
POWERS AND SO THEY DIDN'T.
SO THAT'S THE ARRANGEMENT THAT
WE HAVE.
WE HAVE SO MUCH MORE COMPLEX
THINGS TO DO TODAY, WE NEED A
NEW ARRANGEMENT.

Steve says WE HAVE A NEW
ARRANGEMENT.
BACK IN 2005, YOU SAID?

Tricia says 2006.

Steve says DALTON McGUINTY
PASSED THE ACT WHICH GAVE
TORONTO MORE POWERS TO DO ITS
THING.
DID THAT NOT DO THE JOB?

Tricia says IN MANY WAYS
IT DID DO THE JOB IN TERMS OF
THE WAKE OF THE MAIN ISSUE NOW
IN TERMS OF BILL 5, IT DID GIVE
THE CITY OF TORONTO THE
AUTHORITY TO DETERMINE THE
STRUCTURE OF ITS COUNCIL AND THE
NUMBER OF COUNCILLORS.
THAT'S WHAT'S BEEN TAKEN AWAY.
AND THAT KIND OF RAISES A LARGER
QUESTION WHICH HAD NOT ENTIRELY
DIED DOWN, WHICH IS: WHAT IS THE
RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN A CITY OF
THIS SIZE WITHIN A REGION OF
THIS SIZE AND THE PROVINCE?
IS IT, AS YOU SAID AT THE
BEGINNING, IS IT SO LARGE THAT
IT SHOULD HAVE EVEN MORE
AUTHORITY THAN IT DOES, EVEN IN
TERMS OF TAXING POWERS?
LIKE, THERE'S SOME TAXING
PROVISIONS GIVEN THE CITY OF
TORONTO THAT WE KNOW FROM THE
TOLL CONVERSATION IN SOME
INSTANCES THE CITY STILL HAS TO
GO ASK THE PROVINCE FOR
PERMISSION.

Steve says AS JOHN TORY SAID,
CAP IN HAND TO QUEEN'S PARK.
ANY OTHER CITIES IN CANADA OR
THE UNITED STATES THAT HAVE THIS
STATUS?

Doug says THERE ARE MANY
CHARTER CITIES AROUND THE WORLD.
IN EUROPE AND THE UNITED STATES,
THERE ARE HUNDREDS, I BELIEVE,
CERTAINLY OVER A HUNDRED.
ONE OF THEM IS LOS ANGELES, AND
IT HAS A VERY ROBUST CITY
CHARTER WHERE IT CANNOT BE
CHANGED BY THE STATE, FOR
EXAMPLE.
IT'S ENTRENCHED IN THE STATE'S
CONSTITUTION.
BUT IT REQUIRES A REFERENDUM OF
VOTERS TO CHANGE IT.
IN CANADA, THERE ARE CITIES WITH
CHARTERS, BUT THEY'RE NOT THE
SAME KIND OF THING IN THAT THEY
DON'T HAVE THAT ELEMENT OF
PROTECTION.
SO CALGARY AND EDMONTON HAVE
RECENTLY NEGOTIATED CITY
CHARTERS WITH THEIR PROVINCIAL
GOVERNMENT.
IT HAS GIVEN THEM SOME MORE
AUTONOMY AND SOME MORE POWER.
BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY IT'S
PROVINCIAL LEGISLATION, AND THE
PROVINCE, IF THERE WERE A
PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT WITH THE
MIND TO DO SO, COULD SIMPLY COME
IN AND CHANGE THE WHOLE GAME
WITHOUT ASKING ANYONE.

The caption changes to "Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live."

Steve says TRICIA, LET'S GET
MORE SPECIFIC ABOUT THIS.
IF YOU BELIEVE THAT TORONTO
NEEDS MORE POWERS TO SECURE ITS
OWN PARTICULAR DESTINY, BE
SPECIFIC.
WHAT KIND OF POWERS TO DO WHAT
THAT IT CAN'T DO NOW?

The caption changes to "Tricia Wood, @pkbwood."

Tricia says I THINK ONE OF
THE MAIN ONES IS STRONGER
TAXATION POWER.
WE RELY LARGELY ON PROPERTY TAX
INCOME AND ON DEVELOPMENT
CHARGES, AND THAT'S INSUFFICIENT
REVENUE AND, IN SOME CASES,
INSUFFICIENTLY PREDICTABLE
REVENUE FOR THE COMPLEXITY OF
SERVICES THE CITY WANTS TO
PROVIDE.
I THINK ANOTHER ONE THAT WOULD
BE INTERESTING IS ON THE SORT OF
DEMOCRATIC FRONT, THAT GOES
BEYOND JUST HOW MANY CITY
COUNCILLORS WE HAVE AND HOW MANY
CITIZENS THEY REPRESENT, AND
THAT IS TO WHAT EXTENT ARE
CITIZENS INVOLVED ACTUALLY IN
THE GOVERNING PROCESS?
BECAUSE SOME CITIES, FOR EXAMPLE
CHICAGO, IS ONE OF THEM,
ACTUALLY HAVE PARTICIPATORY
BUDGETING WHERE PART OF THE
CHARTER ALLOWS THAT A SMALL
PERCENTAGE, USUALLY AROUND 3 percent,
IS ACTUALLY DECIDED BY CITIZENS
IN TERMS OF HOW THEY'RE GOING TO
SPEND THAT MONEY.
SO THERE ARE WAYS IN WHICH YOU
CAN ALSO BRING CITIZENS MORE
INTO THE GOVERNANCE PROCESS,
WHICH IS A RENEWAL OF LOCAL
DEMOCRACY, AND IT WOULD BE
REALLY WONDERFUL IF ACTUALLY
THIS CONVERSATION KIND OF OPENED
UP INTO THAT.
YOU MENTIONED ALSO LOS ANGELES,
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CAME OUT
OF THEIR LAST CHARTER REVISION
WAS A DEPARTMENT OF
NEIGHBOURHOOD EMPOWERMENT, AND
THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE
EMPLOYED BY THAT AND THEIR TASK
IS SPECIFICALLY TO GO OUT AND
IMPROVE PUBLIC ENGAGEMENT.

Steve says LET ME PUT THE
DEMOCRATIC EMPOWERMENT PART TO
THE SIDE FOR A SECOND AND GO
BACK TO THE TAXATION PART WHICH
MAYBE OF MORE INTEREST TO SOME
OF THE PEOPLE WATCHING RIGHT
NOW.
IF PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THE 416
THINK THAT A CHARTER CITY STATUS
FOR THE CAPITAL CITY EQUALS
HIGHER TAXES, WHY WOULD THEY BE
INTERESTED IN THIS?

Doug says WELL, I DON'T
KNOW WHY THEY SHOULD BE AND WE
DON'T THINK IT DOES NECESSARILY
MEAN HIGHER TAXES.
WE THINK IT MEANS A DIFFERENT
WAY OF APPORTIONING THE MONEY
THAT'S ALREADY THERE.
FOR EXAMPLE, IN 2005, THE CITY
OF TORONTO SPENT MORE THAN 11 BILLION dollars MORE TO THE PROVINCE
AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THAT
IT GOT BACK IN GOVERNMENT
SERVICES AND PROGRAMS... SENT.
SO THAT SEEMS LIKE AN IMBALANCE.
WE'RE NOT SAYING THAT TORONTO
SHOULDN'T PAY ITS SHARE IN THE
PROVINCE.
WE RECOGNIZE THAT TORONTO HAS A
DUTY TO PARTICIPATE IN THE
PROVINCE AND IN THE FEDERAL
ARRANGEMENT, SO WE DON'T HAVE
ANY PROBLEM WITH THAT.
BUT WE THINK THAT AN EXAMINATION
OF THAT MONEY VERSUS THE TASKS
AND RESPONSIBILITIES THAT THE
CITY OF TORONTO HAS MIGHT RESULT
IN A DIFFERENT APPORTIONMENT.
INSTEAD OF SENDING MONEY TO
ONTARIO AND HAVING TO ASK FOR IT
ALL BACK, WE MIGHT JUST KEEP
SOME OF THAT TO USE ON THINGS
THAT WE'RE ALREADY GETTING MONEY
BACK TO DO ANYWAY, BUT WE'D HAVE
MORE CONTROL.

Steve says SO THIS IS ABOUT...
I GUESS THE WAY YOU'VE DESCRIBED
IT THERE IS INSTEAD OF THE
PROVINCE HAVING THE BIGGEST,
LION'S SHARE OF THE ABILITY TO
RAISE MONEY THROUGH TAXATION AND
THEN TRANSFER IT OFF TO TORONTO,
TORONTO COULD DO THAT ITS OWN
WAY?

Doug says IT COULD BE A
NUMBER OF THINGS.
LIKE, IF YOU TAKE JUST INCOME
TAX AS AN EXAMPLE.
YOU KNOW, SO FAR WE'RE NOT... I
MEAN, WE HAVEN'T SOLIDIFIED OUR
PROPOSAL, SO THINGS IN OUR MIND
ARE FLUID.
BUT WE'RE NOT SAYING THAT THE
CITY SHOULD NECESSARILY SET UP A
BIG BUREAUCRACY TO COLLECT
INCOME TAX IF IT WERE ABLE TO
ACCESS SOME OF THE INCOME TAX.
WHAT WE'RE SAYING IS MAYBE IT'S
A GOOD ARRANGEMENT TO HAVE THE
PROVINCE COLLECT THAT, BUT IT'S
PREDETERMINED HOW MUCH OF THAT
IS GOING TO REMAIN WITH THE
CITY.
SO WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT, YOU
KNOW, COLLECTION PROCEDURES OR
ANYTHING BUT SAY, OKAY, IF THE
CITY OF TORONTO RAISES THIS MANY
TAXES AND THIS MUCH GOES TO THE
PROVINCE AND THE PROVINCE GIVES
US THIS MUCH BACK, HOW MUCH OF
THAT CAN WE JUST NOT GIVE TO THE
PROVINCE IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Steve says OKAY.
TRISH, IS THIS MOVE... TRICIA,
EXCUSE ME.
IS THIS MOVE ULTIMATELY DESIGNED
TO MAKE TORONTO AN 11TH
PROVINCE?

The caption changes to "The eleventh province?"

Tricia says I DON'T THINK SO.
NOT NECESSARILY.
THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ADVOCATE
FOR THAT, AND THERE ARE CITIES
WHO HAVE SOMETHING THAT'S MUCH
STRONGER THAN THE CHARTER CITY
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.
BERLIN, FOR EXAMPLE.
MEXICO CITY NOW.
THOSE ARE ACTUALLY FEDERAL
STATES.
SO THERE ARE CITIES THAT DO
THAT.
MY SENSE IS DESPITE THE BITTER
SENTIMENT THERE IS ON REALLY
FRUSTRATING DAYS, THAT'S NOT
WHAT PEOPLE ARE REALLY SEEKING.
I THINK THEY'RE SEEKING A LITTLE
LESS INTERFERENCE.
I THINK IT'S PARTICULARLY ACUTE,
THIS SENSE OF BEING INTERFERED
WITH, BECAUSE BILL 5 TOOK EFFECT
IN THE MIDDLE OF AN ELECTION.

Steve says BILL 5 IS THE ONE
THAT BASICALLY SHRUNK CITY COUNCIL.

Tricia says THAT'S RIGHT.
THAT HAPPENED MID-CAMPAIGN, SORT
OF MAXIMUM DISRUPTION.
SO I THINK THERE'S A SENSE OF
WANTING TO HAVE A LITTLE BIT
MORE CONTROL OVER THINGS SO THAT
IF THOSE CHANGES ARE GOING TO
COME ABOUT, THEY COME ABOUT IN A
MORE ORDERLY, LESS DISRUPTIVE
WAY.
I DON'T THINK THEY'RE SEEKING
SECESSION.

Steve says IT'S NOT ABOUT
SECESSION.

Tricia says I DON'T THINK SO.

Doug says AND IT'S NOT ABOUT SECESSION
FOR TORONTO CITY CHARTER AS
WELL.
THERE ARE PRACTICAL THINGS AS
WELL.
TO CREATE A PROVINCE IN CANADA,
YOU ARE GOING TO NEED THE
APPROVAL OF SEVEN PROVINCES WITH
50 PERCENT OF THE POPULATION.
I KNOW THERE'S SOME THAT SAY
MAYBE NOT, BUT THAT'S THE
GENERALLY ACCEPTED RULE, AND
THAT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO GET.
SO AS A PRACTICAL MATTER, IT'S
OFF THE TABLE.

Steve says SO YOU DON'T
NECESSARILY WANT TORONTO TO
BECOME ANOTHER PROVINCE BUT YOU
DEFINITELY WANT TORONTO TO BE
MORE AUTONOMOUS.

Doug says THAT'S RIGHT.
IN MY VIEW WE SHOULD TRY TO GET
AS CLOSE TO EXERCISING
PROVINCIAL RESPONSIBILITIES AND
POWERS AS WE CAN WITHOUT
CROSSING THAT LINE THAT EXISTS
IN THE CONSTITUTIONAL
ARRANGEMENTS OF TORONTO... OR OF
CANADA THAT SAYS YOU CAN'T HAVE
MUNICIPALITIES BEING A THIRD
LEVEL OF GOVERNMENT, AND WE
THINK THERE ARE CONSTITUTIONAL
WAYS TO GET AS CLOSE TO THAT AS
WE POSSIBLY CAN WITHOUT CROSSING
THAT LINE.

Steve says DOUG, WAS THERE A
MOMENT IN HISTORY WHERE THE
RELATIONSHIP... BECAUSE, YOU
KNOW, AGAIN, GOING BACK TO MY
OWN CHILDHOOD.
THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN QUEEN'S
PARK AND CITY HALL WAS PRETTY
COLLABORATIVE FOR QUITE A LONG
TIME.
OF COURSE, HICCUPS HERE AND
THERE.
BUT FOR THE MOST PART, IT SEEMED
TO WORK RELATIVELY WELL.
WHEN DID IT GO OFF THE RAILS, IN
YOUR VIEW?

The caption changes to "A new relationship."

Doug says I DON'T KNOW.
I GUESS IN MY OWN CALCULATION,
IT MIGHT BE SOMETIME AROUND THE
AMALGAMATION IN THE LATE
1990s.

Steve says MEGA CITY.

Doug says THE HARRIS GOVERNMENT.
MEGA CITY.
AND THE DESTRUCTION OF WHAT WAS
A LOCAL LEVEL OF GOVERNMENT THAT
COULD LOOK AFTER LOCAL AFFAIRS.
YOU MIGHT HAVE A DIFFERENT
MARKER IN TIME.

Tricia says YEAH.
I THINK I HAVE A DIFFERENT TAKE
ON THAT.
THERE ARE MOMENTS WHERE IT'S
CALMER.
BUT, IN FACT, THE HISTORY OF
CITIES, PARTICULARLY IN ONTARIO,
BUT ELSEWHERE IN CANADA AS WELL,
YOU KNOW, IS ONE THAT EMERGES
FROM THE PROVINCE REALLY NOT
WANTING TO GIVE THE CITY ANY
KIND OF AUTHORITY.
THE IN THE EARLIEST DAYS, THERE
WAS A REAL FEAR OF LOCAL
DEMOCRACY, THIS IS EVEN BEFORE
CONFEDERATION.
THERE WERE TIMES WHEN TOWN
ASSEMBLIES WERE BANNED BECAUSE
THEY WERE AFRAID THAT THEY
WOULD, YOU KNOW, INVENT LOCAL
DEMOCRACY.
AND SO THERE'S THIS... YOU KNOW,
THERE'S BEEN A VERY SLOW LETTING
GO OF ANY KIND OF POWER AND
AUTHORITY TO CITIES.
SO THERE ARE DEFINITELY BETTER
AND WORSE MOMENTS AND I DO THINK
THE MEGA CITY IS ITS OWN MARKER.
BUT THERE'S NO REAL DEEP HISTORY
OF A POSITIVE, YOU KNOW,
SUPPORTIVE RELATIONSHIP OF
CITIES AND ESPECIALLY NOT THE
CITY OF TORONTO.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Steve says I DON'T KNOW.
I SEEM TO REMEMBER THE DAYS OF
BILL DAVIS AND PAUL GODFREY
GETTING ALONG PRETTY WELL AND
MAKING THINGS WORK?

Tricia says I THINK THERE
ARE ABSOLUTELY MOMENTS WHERE
PEOPLE WHO COME FROM SIMILAR
BACKGROUNDS, YOU KNOW, DO SEE
THEIR FATES ALIGNING AND THEY
GET ALONG QUITE WELL.
THE SAME IS TRUE FOR PREMIERS
AND PRIME MINISTERS, RIGHT?
AND THEN THERE'S A SHIFT IN
PERSPECTIVE AND SUDDENLY THEY
DON'T GET ALONG SO WELL.

Steve says JOHN ROBARTS AND
NATHAN PHILLIPS.
I COULD GO ON.
I'M BORING EVERYBODY.
WHAT LEGISLATIVE, DOUG, HAS TO
HAPPEN TO GIVE EFFECT TO TORONTO
AS A CHARTER CITY?
WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN?

Doug says WE SAY TWO THINGS.
ONE IS THERE NEEDS TO BE A CITY
CHARTER NEGOTIATED BETWEEN THE
CITY AND THE PROVINCE AND THEN
THAT NEEDS TO BE PASSED AS
PROVINCIAL LEGISLATION.
BUT THERE'S THE PROTECTION
ELEMENT.
HOW DO YOU THEN PROTECT THAT
FROM UNILATERAL CHANGE BY THE
PROVINCE?
WE'RE SUGGESTING A
CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT.
A SINGLE PROVINCE CONSTITUTIONAL
AMENDMENT UNDER SECTION 43 OF
THE CONSTITUTION, WHICH IS
EASY-ISH TO GET.
YOU NEED ONLY THE APPROVAL OF
THE PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT AND
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND THE
SENATE HAS A ROLE TO PLAY AS
WELL.
BUT IT'S NOT SUBJECT TO THE
GENERAL AMENDING FORMULA OF THE
CONSTITUTION, SEVEN PROVINCES,
50 PERCENT OF THE POPULATION.
SO IT WOULD BE A CITY CHARTER TO
DEFINE THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN
THE CITY AND THE PROVINCE, AND
THEN A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT
TO PROTECT THAT FROM UNILATERAL
INTERFERENCE.

Tricia says CAN I BE A
LITTLE BLACK RAIN CLOUD? APOLOGIES.

Steve says PLEASE.

Tricia says I'M THINKING
OF YOUR REFERENCE TO CALIFORNIA
IN PARTICULAR.
PUTTING SOMETHING IN THE
PROVINCIAL CONSTITUTION OR STATE
CONSTITUTION ACTUALLY DOESN'T
MAKE IT FIREPROOF... THERE'S NO
WAY TO DO IT.

Doug says NOT FIREPROOF, THAT'S RIGHT.

Tricia says WE WERE TALKING EARLIER ABOUT
HOW THE CITY OF CHICAGO, FOR
EXAMPLE, HAD A CITY CHARTER
STARTING IN THE 1830s.
AND IN 1870, THE STATE OF
ILLINOIS WROTE A NEW STATE
CONSTITUTION AND THEY TOOK
CHICAGO'S SPECIAL CHARTER CITY
STATUS AWAY.
THEY HAD A GENERIC THAT APPLIED
TO ALL CITIES AND TOWNS AND
VILLAGES.
ONLY IN 1970, THEY WERE ABLE TO
RENEGOTIATE.
THERE WAS A LOT OF FIGHTING IN
THE CENTURY IN BETWEEN.
AND THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
COULD TECHNICALLY DO THE SAME
THING.
IT STILL COMES BACK TO, YOU
KNOW, SOME KIND OF POLITICAL
CONSENSUS ON WHAT THAT
RELATIONSHIP IS GOING TO BE, AND
IN MOST PARTS OF THE WORLD, YOU
KNOW, WE'RE SORT OF TRENDING
TOWARDS GIVING CITIES AND THEIR
REGIONS, YOU KNOW, MORE... YEAH,
RIGHT?
MORE AND MORE AUTHORITY...

Steve says YOU'VE NOW RAISED
THE NEXT AREA OF COMPLICATION.

Tricia says WE'RE MOVING A
LITTLE BIT MORE SLOWLY AND RIGHT
NOW IN THE OTHER DIRECTION, AND
THAT'S ACTUALLY UNUSUAL.

Steve says DOUG, TELL ME: IS
THIS A 416 PROJECT, BECAUSE SOME
PEOPLE, WHEN YOU SAY TORONTO,
THINK OF THE GREATER TORONTO
AREA, WHICH INCLUDES THE 905?
WHAT IS THIS THAT YOU'RE WORKING
ON?

Doug says WELL, THAT'S TO
BE DETERMINED.
BUT OUR IDEA IS THAT WE LIVE IN
TORONTO, SO WE'RE STARTING IN
TORONTO.

Steve says 416?

The caption changes to "Including the 905?"

Doug says 416.
BUT WE THINK THAT AS THE IDEA
DEVELOPS AND PEOPLE SEE WHAT IT
IS, IT MAY VERY WELL BE THAT
OTHER MUNICIPALITIES IN THE
PROVINCE WOULD WANT TO ADOPT
SOMETHING SIMILAR AND WE WOULD
VERY MUCH SUPPORT THAT, AND IN
FACT, YOU KNOW, THE QUESTION IS
VERY SERIOUS ABOUT, WHAT WOULD
THIS DO TO THE RELATIONS BETWEEN
CITIES AND THE BALANCE BETWEEN
CITIES IN THE GTA IF TORONTO HAD
A LOT OF POWERS AND THE OTHER
ONES DIDN'T?
IS THERE A NEED TO HAVE CHARTER
CITIES ACROSS THE GTA WHO THEN
SIT AROUND A COUNCIL AND
DETERMINE GTA MATTERS BECAUSE IT
IS ONE CONTIGUOUS VERY POWERFUL
ECONOMIC UNIT AND THERE NEEDS TO
BE A GREAT DEAL OF COORDINATION.
SO EXACTLY HOW THAT FITS IN IS
TO BE DETERMINED OVER THE COURSE
OF TIME, BUT WE THINK THAT
STARTING IN TORONTO WITH A CITY
CHARTER HERE, PEOPLE WILL SEE
WHAT THAT MEANS AND IT MAY VERY
WELL NOT JUST BE ATTRACTIVE TO
THEM BUT ALSO ACROSS THE
COUNTRY.

Steve says TRICIA, IT SEEMS TO
ME THE BIGGEST FLY IN THE
OINTMENT IS NOT JUST THE MAN WHO
IS THE CURRENT PREMIER OF
ONTARIO BUT WHO ALSO SEES
HIMSELF IN CERTAIN RESPECTS AS
THE MAYOR OF TORONTO.
IS THERE ANY POINT IN DOING
THIS?

Tricia says IT DEPENDS WHAT THIS IS.

Steve says GIVING TORONTO CITY STATUS?

The caption changes to "The province's role."

Tricia says IN TERMS OF YOUR GROUP, FOR
EXAMPLE, YOU'RE STARTING A
CONVERSATION THAT'S LONGER THAN
FIVE MINUTES.
I'M INVOLVED IN ANOTHER PROJECT
OUT OF THE CITY INSTITUTE THAT'S
TRYING TO HAVE A LARGE
CONVERSATION ABOUT LOCAL
DEMOCRACY AS WELL.
THOSE ARE VALUABLE CONVERSATIONS
TO HAVE.
THEY IMPROVE PUBLIC ENGAGEMENT,
CITY ENGAGEMENT.
IN AND OF THEMSELVES THEY'RE
GOOD.
AGAIN RETURNING TO THE EXAMPLE
OF THE CITY OF CHICAGO, THE
PRESSURE THAT CONTINUED TO BUILD
OVER THAT CENTURY CAME FROM
CHICAGOANS THEMSELVES WHO KEPT
ORGANIZING THEIR CHARTER
COMMISSIONS, PUTTING PROPOSALS
TO THE STATE WHO EDITED THEM AND
SENT THEM BACK.
BUT STILL THEY KEPT UP THEIR OWN
PRESSURE.

Steve says AND EVENTUALLY IT GOT THERE.

Tricia says WE MAY NEVER PERSUADE THIS
PREMIER.
I DON'T KNOW.
BUT, YOU KNOW, A CHANGE IN
GOVERNMENT... THIS IS A LONG
TIME SCALE KIND OF CONVERSATION.
SO EVEN IF WE CAN'T HAVE IT THIS
YEAR OR IN SIX MONTHS, THE
CONVERSATION IS WORTH IT IN ITS
OWN RIGHT, AND I THINK LOOKING
TO THE FUTURE, IT'S WORTH
BEGINNING...

Steve says WELL, THE CHARTER
HASN'T BEEN WRITTEN YET, RIGHT?

Doug says NO.
I MEAN, IF WE STARTED THIS
CONVERSATION AFTER THE NEXT
ELECTION, THEN IT'S VERY LIKELY
WE WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO COMPLETE
THAT CONVERSATION AND THE TASK
BEFORE THE NEXT ELECTION.
AND SO WHAT WE'RE SAYING IS
LET'S START NOW, LET'S HAVE THAT
CONVERSATION, LET'S GET THE BALL
ROLLING.
WHEN THE POLITICAL WINDS IN THE
PROVINCE ARE A LITTLE MORE
FAVOURABLE TO WHAT WE'RE TALKING
ABOUT, WE WILL BE READY WITH
SOMETHING.

Steve says I MEAN, CAN YOU SORT
OF MAP OUT HOW LONG YOU THINK
THE JOURNEY OF ACTUALLY CRAFTING
A CHARTER THAT WOULD BE READY TO
GO TO SOME FUTURE PROVINCIAL
GOVERNMENT WILL TAKE?

Doug says IT DEPENDS ON
THE FORM OF THE FINAL CHARTER.
IF YOU DECIDE WHAT NEEDS TO BE
WORKED OUT IS A SERIES OF
PRINCIPLES THAT WOULD GUIDE THE
FORMAL DISCUSSIONS OF THE
WRITING OF A CHARTER, WHICH
ULTIMATELY HAS TO BE DONE
BETWEEN THE CITY GOVERNMENT AND
THE PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT,
HOPEFULLY WITH A LOT OF PUBLIC
INPUT, BUT, YOU KNOW, THAT'S HOW
THAT WOULD COME ABOUT.

Steve says A COUPLE YEARS
ANYWAY, RIGHT?

Doug says AT LEAST.

Steve says AT LEAST A COUPLE YEARS.

The caption changes to "tvo.org/theagenda; agendaconnect@tvo.org."

Doug says I THINK WE'RE
NOT IN A HURRY.
WE'RE TAKING OUR TIME.
WE'RE ASSEMBLING A GROUP NOW
WHICH WE'RE CALLING A WORKING
GROUP, ABOUT TWO DOZEN PEOPLE
WHO HAVE SOME EXPERTISE IN
MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS, HOPEFULLY
REPRESENTATIVE OF THE CITY IN A
LOT OF DIFFERENT WAYS.
WE'RE GOING TO SIT AROUND A
TABLE AND HASH SOME OF THIS OUT:
WHAT ARE SOME OF THE PRINCIPLES
WE WOULD WANT TO SEE IN A CITY
CHARTER AND, YOU KNOW, ARE THERE
SPECIFIC THINGS THAT WE WOULD
WANT TO SEE?
IT'S VERY MUCH A NEW IDEA.
WE'VE ONLY BEEN DOING THIS SINCE
DECEMBER, AND WE'VE BEEN VERY
RESPECTFUL OF THE PROCESS IN
THAT WE DON'T WANT, YOU KNOW,
OUR STEERING GROUP TO COME OUT
AND SAY, THIS IS A CITY CHARTER
AND IT'S ALL SETTLED AND THAT'S
HOW IT'S GOING TO BE.
WE WANT TO CONSULT WITH PEOPLE,
BRING THEM AROUND A TABLE, GET
SOMETHING GOING AS A
CONVERSATION-STARTER, THEN TAKE
THAT TO THE PUBLIC, SEE WHAT
THEY THINK.

The caption changes to "Producer: Steve Paikin, @spaikin."

Steve says GOTCHA.
THAT'S DOUG EARL ALONGSIDE
TRICIA WOOD.
HE OF THE STEERING COMMITTEE
FROM CHARTER CITY TORONTO, SHE
FROM YORK UNIVERSITY.
WE THANK YOU BOTH FOR COMING IN
TO TVO AND SHARING YOUR VIEWS
ABOUT THIS TONIGHT.

The caption changes to "Subscribe to The Agenda Podcast: tvo.org/theagenda."

Both guests say THANKS, STEVE.

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