Transcript: The Cost of Children | Apr 29, 2019

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a blue suit, white shirt, and checkered blue tie.

A caption on screen reads "The cost of children. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says IT IS NO SURPRISE
THAT WOMEN'S INCOMES DROP
IMMEDIATELY AFTER THEY BECOME
MOTHERS, SINCE MANY TAKE
PARENTAL LEAVE.
HOWEVER, ACCORDING TO A NEW RBC
REPORT, THAT INCOME DECLINE CAN
LAST WELL BEYOND THE BIRTH OF A
CHILD.
HERE TO HELP US UNDERSTAND WHY
AND WHETHER BETTER PARENTAL
LEAVE POLICIES WOULD MAKE A
DIFFERENCE:
MICHAEL KAUFMAN, AUTHOR OF "THE
TIME HAS COME: WHY MEN MUST JOIN
THE GENDER EQUALITY REVOLUTION."

Michael is in his mid-sixties, clean-shaven, with short wavy gray hair. He's wearing rounded glasses, a black suit and a white shirt.
A picture of his book appears briefly on screen. The cover features a Venn diagram with a blue circle, a red circle, and a purple intersection.

Steve continues SARAH MOLYNEAUX IS HERE.
SHE IS A LABOUR AND HUMAN RIGHTS
LAWYER AT MOLYNEAUX LAW...

Sarah is in her early forties, with shoulder-length straight blond hair. She's wearing glasses, a black blazer and a beige blouse.

Steve continues AND MARGARET YAP FROM RYERSON UNIVERSITY...

Margaret is in her fifties, with black hair in a bob and bangs. She's wearing glasses, a black blazer and a black shirt.

Steve continues IT'S GREAT TO HAVE EVERYBODY HERE FOR THIS CONVERSATION TONIGHT.
WE'RE JUST GOING TO SHARE SOME
OF THE STATS FROM THE RBC
ECONOMICS REPORT.
SHELDON, PUT THESE UP, IF YOU
WOULD.
HERE WE GO.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "Children and income."

Steve reads data from the slate and says
FOLLOWING THE BIRTH OF A FIRST
CHILD, A WOMAN'S EARNINGS
TYPICALLY DROP BY 48 percent.
SOMEWHAT EXPECTED GIVEN THAT
WOMEN USUALLY TAKE SOME TIME OFF
FOLLOWING CHILD BIRTH.
HOWEVER, THAT PENALTY CONTINUES
TYPICALLY FOR FIVE YEARS AFTER
THE BIRTH.
WOMEN BETWEEN THE AGES OF 25 AND
29 EXPERIENCE A FURTHER DROP OF
14 percent, AND HOW ABOUT THIS?
WHEN MEN BECOME FATHERS, THEIR
INCOME INCREASES.
TYPICALLY.
ANYWAYS, LET'S GET INTO THIS.
WHAT DO THOSE NUMBERS SAY TO YOU?

Sarah says I WAS SURPRISED TO SEE THAT THE PENALTY IS ONLY FIVE YEARS, TO
BE HONEST.

Steve says YOU THOUGHT IT WAS LONGER?

The caption changes to "Sarah Molyneaux. Molyneaux Law."

Sarah says I DO THINK THAT IT'S LONGER.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK
IT'S IMPORTANT TO REALIZE IS
THAT THE RBC REPORT FOCUSES ON
HOURLY WAGES, NOT ON THE TOTAL
INCOME PICTURE.
SO WHAT YOU'RE MISSING OUT ON IS
WOMEN WHO OPT INTO LESS
LUCRATIVE CAREERS, PART-TIME
WORK, CONTRACT LABOUR, WHERE THE
HOURLY RATE ISN'T THE ENTIRE
PICTURE OF WHAT THEY'RE BRINGING
HOME, AND I THINK THAT IMPACT IS
A LOT LONGER.
AND THEN OF COURSE WE HAVE WOMEN
WHO DROP OUT OF THE WORK FORCE
ENTIRELY.
SO I THINK THOSE NUMBERS AREN'T
REALLY CAPTURED BY THE REPORT,
HOWEVER I'D BE HAPPY IF THE
IMPACT OF HAVING A CHILD WAS
JUST FIVE YEARS.

Steve says YOUR SENSE IS WORSE
THAN INDICATED HERE?

Sarah says I THINK SO.
IN MY JOB I SEE A LOT OF JOB
LOSS RELATED TO PREGNANCY AND
CHILD CARE ISSUES AND THE IMPACT
OF THAT JOB LOSS AT THAT STAGE
IN YOUR CAREER WHICH FOR MOST
PARENTS IS EARLY, RIGHT, IN YOUR
20s OR 30s FOR THE AVERAGE
PARENT OR THE FIRST BIRTH OF A
CHILD, TO LOSE A JOB OR SEE A
DEMOTION OR HAVE WORKPLACE
CHALLENGES THAT EARLY IN YOUR
CAREER, THE EFFECTS CAN BE
REALLY LONG-LASTING.

Steve says LET'S GO AROUND THE
TABLE HERE.
MARGARET, YOUR VIEW ON THOSE
NUMBERS?

The caption changes to "Margaret Yap. Ryerson University."

Margaret says I THINK THERE IS A PENALTY.
I AGREE WITH SARAH.
I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE LONGER
BECAUSE A LOT OF THE MOTHERS
WHEN THEY GIVE BIRTH, THEY
USUALLY LIKE TO STAY HOME WITH
THEIR BABY AND GET THEM UP TO
SPEED ON SOME THINGS.
SOME FRIENDS I KNOW ACTUALLY
TAKE LEAVE UNTIL THEY GROW UP
AND REENTER THE JOB MARKET.
THERE WILL BE A LOT OF PENALTIES
THEY HAVE TO SUFFER.

Steve says MICHAEL, YOUR TAKE?

The caption changes to "Michael Kaufman. Author, 'The time has come.'"
Then, it changes again to "A dip in income."

Michael says SEEING NUMBERS LIKE THAT IS A REAL CALL
TO ACTION, ISN'T IT?
HERE'S A PROBLEM THAT'S FACING
US, IT'S RIGHT IN OUR FACES, WE
HAVE GOT TO DO SOMETHING.
WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT.
BUT WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THIS
DISCREPANCY BETWEEN MEN DOING
BETTER, HOW BECOMING A PARENT
LEADS TO AN INCREASE IN YOUR
PRESTIGE AND YOU'RE OBVIOUSLY
GOING TO BE RESPONSIBLE AND ALL
THOSE SORTS OF THINGS.
AND IT'S ONE MORE AREA WHERE
WOMEN ARE PAYING A PENALTY FOR
THE WAYS THAT WE HAVE SET UP OUR
FAMILIES, OUR REGIMES OF CHILD
CARE, LACK OF DAY CARE.
IT REALLY TELLS US WE'VE GOT TO
TAKE ACTION.

Steve says MY SENSE IS, THOUGH,
THERE'S A PRETTY DECENT
AWARENESS OUT THERE, THE FACT
THAT WOMEN'S INCOMES TAKE A HIT
WHEN THEY HAVE A CHILD.
BUT THE FACT THAT MEN WOULD DO
BETTER.
I'M NOT SURE THERE'S THAT MUCH
AWARENESS ABOUT THAT.
DID THAT SURPRISE YOU?

Michael says I'VE SEEN THIS BEFORE IN
OTHER STUDIES BUT IN GENERAL
IT'S ONE OF THOSE "REALLY?"
SORTS OF NUMBERS.

Steve says HOW DO YOU SEE
NUMBERS LIKE THIS REFLECTED
TYPICALLY IN THE WORK THAT YOU DO?

Sarah says RIGHT.
SO, I MEAN, I AGREE WITH YOU
THAT THAT INITIAL DIP ISN'T
SURPRISING AND A LOT OF THAT IS
LINKED TO THE TAKING OF PARENTAL
LEAVE IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE
BIRTH OF A CHILD.
AND AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, WE
SEE A LOT OF JOB LOSS AROUND THE
TIME OF A PREGNANCY AND THE
BIRTH OF A CHILD, DAY CARE
ISSUES ARE A REAL CHALLENGE FOR
PEOPLE AND MAINTAINING FULL-TIME
WORK IN THE CAREER OF THEIR
CHOICE.
BUT THERE'S ALSO DISCRIMINATION
ON THE JOB THAT I THINK AFFECTS
WOMEN'S ABILITY TO EARN AT A
RATE EQUAL TO MEN.

Steve says WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY
DISCRIMINATION ON THE JOB?

Michael says RIGHT.
SO IT'S EVERYTHING FROM, YOU
KNOW, THE WORKPLACE JUST NOT
BEING SET UP FOR THE SUCCESS OF
WOMEN OR PRIMARY CARE-GIVERS, SO
THINGS LIKE WINING AND DINING
CLIENTS LATE INTO THE NIGHT,
TRAVELLING FOR WORK, OVERTIME
HOURS, NIGHT SHIFTS,
UNPREDICTABLE SHIFT SCHEDULING
ESPECIALLY, SO FOR WAGE WORKERS
IT'S A REAL PROBLEM WHEN YOU
HAVE YOUNG CHILDREN AT HOME.
SO IT BECOMES MORE DIFFICULT TO
SUCCEED AND MAKE A GOOD
IMPRESSION ON YOUR EMPLOYER IN
ORDER TO GET PROMOTIONS TO, YOU
KNOW, ACTUAL DISCRIMINATION,
PEOPLE FEELING THAT MOTHERS ARE
NOT AS CAPABLE, NOT AS
DEDICATED, NOT AS HARD-WORKING
BECAUSE THEY MAYBE OCCASIONALLY
HAVE TO STAY HOME WITH A SICK
KID.
SO YOU SEE A FULL RANGE OF
BEHAVIOUR FROM EMPLOYERS.
WHEN YOU HAVE YOUNG PARENTS,
PARTICULARLY YOUNG MOTHERS, IN
THE WORKPLACE.

Steve says HOW MUCH OF IT IS,
AND I HAVE HEARD THIS FROM
OTHERS, HOW MUCH OF IT IS WOMEN
DON'T NECESSARILY KNOW THEIR OWN
VALUE IN THE WORKPLACE AND
THEREFORE DON'T ASK FOR AS MUCH
AS THEY SHOULD.

The caption changes to "Sarah Molyneaux, @Sarah_Molyneaux."

Sarah says THAT'S A COMPLICATED QUESTION.
THERE HAVE BEEN STUDIES GOING
BOTH WAYS ON THAT ISSUE AND I
THINK PART OF THAT IS BECAUSE
IT'S HARD TO SEPARATE THAT OUT.
I THINK WHEN YOU SEE THE NUMBER
OF WOMEN WHO EXPERIENCE
PREGNANCY AND PARENTAL STATUS
DISCRIMINATION IN THE WORKPLACE,
YOU CAN UNDERSTAND WHY OTHER
WOMEN ARE AFRAID TO STEP UP AND
ASK FOR MORE.
SO YOU SEE YOUR COLLEAGUES
GETTING FIRED FOR HAVING A KID
AND YOU KNOW YOU'RE TRYING TO
START A FAMILY, YOU PROBABLY
AREN'T THINKING NOW IS THE TIME
TO ASK FOR A RAISE.
THERE'S A LOT OF A CULTURE OF
FEAR WHEN YOU HAVE THAT KIND OF
PERVASIVE DISCRIMINATION IN THE
WORKPLACE.

Steve says MARGARET, DOES
SOCIETY THINK THIS IS AN ISSUE?

Margaret says YES, OF COURSE.
I THINK BOTH MEN AND WOMEN THINK
THAT THIS SHOULD BE SOMETHING
THAT WE CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT.

Steve says YOU SAY OF COURSE
SOCIETY THINKS THIS IS AN ISSUE.
I'M NOT SURE SOCIETY THINKS THIS
IS AN ISSUE.
WHERE'S YOUR PROOF THAT SOCIETY
CARES ABOUT THIS?

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Margaret says WHEN I TALK TO EMPLOYERS THEY
ALWAYS THINK THIS IS
SOMETHING... IN THE WORLD OF
WORK WE TALK ABOUT THERE BEING A
WAR FOR TALENT AND THEY WANT TO
RETAIN THE PEOPLE WHO ARE REALLY
GOOD AT DOING THEIR JOBS AND
THAT APPLIES TO BOTH MEN AND
WOMEN.
SO IF THAT'S THE CASE, THEN THEY
SHOULD DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS.

Steve says IS SOCIETY SEIZED OF
THIS ISSUE, MICHAEL?

The caption changes to "Michael Kaufman, @GenderEQ."

Michael says YEAH, YOU
KNOW, IT'S BECOMING AWARE OF THE
ISSUE.
THIS IS ONE OF THESE ISSUES THAT
HAS BEEN HIDDEN LITERALLY HIDDEN
IN THE HOME.
YOU KNOW, MEN HAVE... MEN HAVE
CONTROLLED THE AIRWAVES, WE'VE
CONTROLLED PUBLIC DISCUSSIONS,
WE'VE CONTROLLED LEADERSHIP,
WHETHER IN THE COMPANIES OR
PUBLIC SECTOR POLICY-MAKING, AND
SO IT'S BEEN A PROBLEM THAT I
DON'T THINK MEN HAVE PAID
CREDENCE TO, I DON'T THINK MEN
HAVE ADDRESSED.
IT'S ONE OF THOSE THINGS,
THOUGH, THAT THE TENACITY OF
MEN.
IN THE WORKPLACE SAYING WE NEED
FLEXIBILITY, WE NEED RESPONDING,
WE NEED GOVERNMENT POLICIES IN
TERMS OF EXTENDING PARENTAL
LEAVE.
I THINK IT'S BECOMING AN ISSUE.
WE'RE BECOMING MORE AWARE.
WE STILL HAVE A WAYS TO GO,
THOUGH, DON'T WE?

Steve says GO AHEAD, MARGARET.

Margaret says WHEN YOU
TALKED ABOUT EXTENDED PARENTAL
LEAVE, IT'S GREAT THAT MOM AND
DAD CAN SHARE THAT LEAVE, BUT I
JUST WONDER HOW MANY DADS ARE
GOING TO DO THAT AND I GUESS THE
MORE DADS DOING THAT, THE
BETTER.
BUT I DON'T THINK THAT A LOT OF
THEM, JUST BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO
MAXIMIZE ON THE ECONOMICS OF THE
WHOLE FAMILY AND USUALLY THE MEN
ARE THE HIGHER EARNER AND
THEREFORE FOR THE ECONOMY THEY
JUST GET THE WOMAN TO TAKE THE
LEAVE.
I AGREE WITH YOU.
IT WOULD BE NICE IF MEN DO HALF
OF THE HOUSEWORK, HALF OF THE
CARE WORK, AND NOW WE'RE TALKING
PARENTAL LEAVE, WE'RE GOING TO
BE HEADING INTO THE ELDER CARE,
LIKE WHEN MOM AND DAD BECOME
OLDER, WHEN THEY HAVE TO GO TO
DOCTOR'S APPOINTMENTS, I HAVE A
FEELING USUALLY IT FALLS ON THE
WOMEN TO DO THE CARE WORK.

Steve says I HAVE NO STATS ON
THIS, BUT PARENTAL LEAVE.
DO WE ASSUME THAT... WHAT?... 1,
2, 3 percent OF DADS AVAIL THEMSELVES
OF THAT WHEREAS 97 percent OF THE WOMEN
ARE DOING IT?
ANYBODY HAVE A FEELING FOR THAT ONE?

Michael says THE
FIGURES ACROSS CANADA AS OF A
FEW YEARS AGO WERE ONLY ABOUT
11 percent OF FATHERS.

Steve says HIGHER THAN I THOUGHT.

Michael says BUT IT'S STILL LOW.
WE'RE GOING TO SEE A BIG CHANGE
IN THAT WITH SOME NEW POLICIES.

Steve says WELL, IN MARCH, NOT
THAT LONG AGO, THE FEDS LAUNCHED
A NEW OPTION OF FIVE WEEKS, USE
IT OR LOSE IT, PARENTAL LEAVE.
HOW DO YOU LIKE THIS POLICY?

Sarah says I LIKE IT.
I'M HOPING IT WILL MOTIVATE MORE
MEN TO TAKE THAT LEAVE, RIGHT?
BUT ONE OF THE CHALLENGES THAT
MEN FACE IS EVEN IF YOU HAVE THE
E.I. ENTITLEMENT, WORKPLACE
CULTURE IS A BARRIER FOR MEN
TOO.
MOST OF MY CLIENTS THAT ARE
FACING MATERNITY LEAVE OR
PARENTAL LEAVE ISSUES,
PREGNANCY, CHILD CARE-RELATED
ISSUES ARE WOMEN, BUT I SEE MALE
CLIENTS TOO.
AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT...
ONE OF THE CHALLENGES THAT THEY
FACE IS THAT THEIR EMPLOYERS
WERE NOT EXPECTING THEM TO TAKE
LEAVE AT ALL.
SO THEY'RE STARTING FROM A BASE
LEVEL EXPECTATION THAT IS QUITE
DIFFERENT FROM THEIR WOMEN
PEERS.

Steve says MICHAEL, THAT IS...
WELL, I WAS ABOUT TO SAY THAT IS
A FACT, WHICH I SHOULDN'T SAY.
BUT LET ME JUST SAY, IT SURE
SEEMS TO BE THE CASE THAT MOST
GUYS IN THE WORKPLACE WOULD BE
NERVOUS ABOUT TAKING PARENTAL
LEAVE FOR WHAT IT SAYS ABOUT
THEM, THEIR COMMITMENT TO THE
JOB VERSUS THEIR COMMITMENT TO
RAISING HAPPY, HEALTHY KIDS.
DO YOU AGREE?

Michael says WHEN I WAS
DOING INTERVIEWS FOR MY NEW
BOOK, I HEARD TWO THINGS OVER
AND OVER AND OVER, AND THAT IS
MEN WORRIED ABOUT TAKING
LEAVE... AS YOU WERE SAYING,
WHAT IT'S GOING TO SAY ABOUT
THEM, AN ASSUMPTION BY A LARGE
MAJORITY OF MEN THAT IT'S GOING
TO DO THEM HARM IN TERMS OF
CAREER ADVANCEMENT.
THEY WON'T BE SEEN AS SERIOUS.
THEY WON'T BE SEEN AS DEDICATED
TO THEIR JOB.
SO THERE'S THAT.
ON THE OTHER HAND, THE VAST
MAJORITY OF MEN THAT I'M TALKING
TO, YOUNGER DADS, ARE... THE
ATTITUDE CHANGE AROUND PARENTING
IS SO HUGE.
I REMEMBER WHEN MY KIDS WERE
YOUNG, AND THIS IS AEONS AGO.
IF I CAN'T DO SOMETHING ONE
NIGHT, SOMEONE MIGHT SAY, OOH,
YOU'RE BABYSITTING TONIGHT OR
CONGRATULATE ME, HOW GREAT IT IS
YOU'RE HELPING OUT WITH YOUR
KIDS.
CAN YOU IMAGINE THAT SAYING TO A
MOTHER?
OH, YOU'RE BABYSITTING?
OH, YOU'RE HELPING WITH YOUR
KIDS.
NO ONE WOULD IMAGINE DOING THAT
BUT WE HAVE TRADITIONALLY SAID
THAT TO DADS.
IF YOU TALK TO YOUNG FATHERS
THESE DAYS AND SAY, OH, YOU'RE
BABYSITTING, THEY'LL SAY GET
LOST.
I DON'T BABYSIT.
I'M A PARENT.
SO YOU'RE SEEING A REAL DESIRE
BY NEW FATHERS TO PLAY THAT
EQUAL ROLE OR CLOSER TO EQUAL
ROLE, AND YET THERE'S STILL
SOCIETAL ATTITUDES, AS YOU WERE
SAYING, THAT ARE STANDING IN THE
WAY, REAL FEAR OF WHAT IT MIGHT
MEAN.

Steve says MARGARET, LET ME GET
YOUR TAKE ON THAT.
DO YOU SEE MEN SUFFERING STIGMA
OR DISCRIMINATION FOR TRYING TO
AVAIL THEMSELVES OF PARENTAL LEAVE?

Margaret says YES.
AND I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING
THAT EMPLOYERS CAN REALLY DO
SOMETHING ABOUT IN TERMS OF
MAKING IT FEEL OKAY TO DO IT.
WOMEN HAVE BEEN DOING IT ALL THE
TIME.
IT'S TIME FOR THE MEN TO STEP UP
TO THE PLATE AND DO IT.
AND I THINK FOR IT TO WORK, I
THINK THE POLICY SIDE, THERE IS
NOW THE EXTENDED LEAVE, BOTH THE
12 TO 18 MONTHS AND THE FIVE
WEEKS THAT YOU JUST MENTIONED.
THAT'S GREAT WITH THE ATTITUDES
OF THE YOUNG MEN CHANGING.
THAT'S ALSO SOMETHING.
I THINK THE MOMENTUM IS
BUILDING.
I THINK NOW THE OTHER ACTOR IN
THE EMPLOYMENT WORLD IS THE
EMPLOYERS NOW HAVE TO DO
SOMETHING TO MAKE IT LESS
DAUNTING FOR MEN TO FEEL LIKE,
OH, I HAVE TO STEP AWAY FOR TWO
MONTHS.
THAT'S GOING TO HURT MY CAREER.
AND I THINK WHATEVER POLICIES
THEY DO, WHATEVER NEW EMPLOYMENT
PRACTICES THEY DO, WILL HELP
BOTH MEN AND WOMEN WORKERS.

Steve says AT THE RISK, THOUGH,
SARAH, OF PUTTING MY FOOT IN MY
MOUTH, WHICH OCCASIONALLY OR
MAYBE MORE THAN OCCASIONALLY
HAPPENS ON THIS PROGRAM, YOU
KNOW, WOMEN GO THROUGH
SIGNIFICANT PHYSICAL AND
EMOTIONAL CHANGES WHEN THEY HAVE
CHILDREN AND THEREFORE CAN
JUSTIFIABLY SAY, "I NEED SOME
TIME OFF WORK TO DEAL WITH ALL
OF THIS."

Sarah says YES.

Steve says MEN DON'T GO THROUGH
PHYSICAL CHANGES.
EMOTIONALLY, YES, BUT THEY DON'T
GO THROUGH PHYSICAL CHANGES
OBVIOUSLY IN THE SAME WAY.
AND YET YOU'RE SAYING MEN SHOULD
MAKE THE ARGUMENT THAT THEY NEED
TIME OFF TO HELP DEAL WITH CHILD
CARE ISSUES AS WELL.
IT'S GOING TO BE A TOUGH SELL IN
SOME PLACES.
NO?

The caption changes to "Expanded parental leave."

Sarah says AND FOR THAT REASON THE LAW
HAS DIFFERENTIATED BETWEEN THE
PARENT THAT GIVES BIRTH AND
OTHER PARENTS FOR QUITE SOME
TIME.
WE HAVE PREGNANCY LEAVE AND
PARENTAL LEAVE.
OFTEN WE CALL ALL OF THAT
MATERNITY LEAVE.
I THINK THAT'S A MISTAKE.
BECAUSE I THINK THAT TERMINOLOGY
ALONE DISSUADE MEN AND ALSO
GENDER DIVERSE PEOPLE.
IT'S LADEN WITH IDEAS OF
MOTHERHOOD.

Steve says WHAT SHOULD WE CALL IT?

Sarah says PREGNANCY AND PARENTAL LEAVE.
PREGNANCY HAS TO LEAVE WITH THE
PHYSICAL NEED FOR REST AND
RECOVERY.
YOU NEED THAT EVEN IF YOU
MISCARRY BECAUSE THAT'S A
PHYSICAL EXPERIENCE YOU NEED TO
RECOVER FROM.
AND PARENTAL LEAVE HAS TO DO
WITH THOSE EARLY MONTHS WITH THE
CHILD, THE CHILD CARE
RESPONSIBILITIES, AND ALL
PARENTS OF A CHILD OUGHT TO WANT
TO BE A PART OF THOSE EARLY
MONTHS OF THEIR CHILD'S CARE, IF
THEY CAN BE, RIGHT?
SO WE ALREADY DISTINGUISH
BETWEEN THOSE LEGALLY.
WE JUST NEED TO GET THERE
SOCIALLY.

Steve says I KNOW PEOPLE LOVE
TO LOOK TO THE SCANDINAVIAN
COUNTRIES AND SAY THEY'RE DOING
EVERYTHING FABULOUSLY WELL
COMPARED TO US AND IN FACT THEIR
PARENTAL LEAVE OPTIONS ARE
BETTER THAN WE HAVE HERE IN
CANADA AT THE MOMENT.
BUT THERE'S STILL A WAGE GAP
THERE.
HOW DO WE EXPLAIN THAT?
MICHAEL?

The caption changes to "The Scandinavian model."

Michael says I THINK,
FIRST OF ALL, THERE'S A NUMBER
OF FACTORS THAT GO INTO A WAGE
GAP.
SO THERE'S A CERTAIN AMOUNT...
THERE'S HISTORY INVOLVED, AND IT
TAKES YEARS TO OVERCOME A WAGE
GAP.
YOU HAVE TO BUILD TOWARDS THAT.
I THINK THERE'S ALSO A
DISCREPANCY BETWEEN DIFFERENT
SCANDINAVIAN COUNTRIES.
THERE WAS A RECENT NEW YORK
TIMES ARTICLE THAT WAS TALKING
ABOUT THE PERSISTENCE OF THE
WAGE GAP AND A FOCUS ON DENMARK
WHERE THEY HAVE... THEIR
POLICIES IN TERMS OF PARENTAL
LEAVE FOR FATHERS AREN'T AS GOOD
AS SWEDEN AND ICELAND AND
NORWAY.
WHAT WE DO KNOW IS THAT ONCE WE
EQUALIZE CHILD CARE AND
HOUSEWORK, ONCE MEN ARE DOING
HALF OF THE CARE WORK, I BELIEVE
THE NUMBER ONE BARRIER TO EQUAL
PAY IS GOING TO BE GONE.
NOW, THERE ARE OTHER BARRIERS.
THERE'S ATTITUDES.
THERE'S JUST EMBEDDED, WHO'S GOT
WHAT JOBS AND HOW LONG IT TAKES
TO CHANGE THAT.
BUT I THINK THE MAJOR BARRIER IS
THE DOUBLE WORK DAY THAT WOMEN
HAVE, I THINK.
THIS IS ESSENTIAL TO FEMINIST
ANALYSIS OF THESE ISSUES.
AND ONCE WE OVERCOME THAT, ONCE
MEN ARE DOING HALF OF THE CARE
WORK, THEN I THINK THE MAJOR
IMPEDIMENT TO EQUAL PAY AND
WOMEN'S EQUAL ADVANCEMENT IS
GOING TO BE GONE.

The caption changes to "Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live."



Steve says MARGARET, HOW LONG
ARE WE AWAY FROM THAT REALITY?

Margaret says I THINK IT'S
QUITE A DISTANCE AWAY.
I AGREE WITH YOU THAT THAT'S THE
FIRST STEP.
I SERIOUSLY THINK THAT THERE ARE
THINGS THAT ORGANIZATIONS SHOULD
DO TO FACILITATE THAT.

Steve says LIKE WHAT?

Margaret says LIKE HAVING MORE FLEXIBILITY,
AS SARAH WAS TALKING ABOUT
EARLIER IN THE SHOW, HOW DO WE
GIVE FLEXIBILITY?
DO YOU HAVE TO DO YOUR WORK IN
TERMS OF GOING OUT LATE NIGHTS
AND ENTERTAINING CLIENTS?
THAT KIND OF WORK.
MAYBE SOME OF THE WORK YOU CAN
HAVE FLEXIBILITY TO DO IT FROM
HOME.

Steve says COMPANIES DON'T LIKE THAT.

The caption changes to "Changing attitudes."

Margaret says COMPANIES DON'T LIKE THAT BUT
THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY AREN'T
WILLING TO ENTERTAIN THAT IDEA
IF WE CAN THINK OF A MODEL THAT
CAN WORK FOR THEM TOO.
AND THAT KIND OF PRACTICE, IF WE
EVER ADOPT IT, WILL BE GOOD FOR
MOTHERS AND THAT WILL ENCOURAGE
MORE MEN TO TAKE PARENTAL LEAVE
BECAUSE THEY KNOW IF I STEP AWAY
FOR THREE MONTHS TO SPEND TIME
WITH MY BABY, I WON'T GO BACK
AND MISS THE NEXT PROMOTION.

Steve says WHAT DO YOU THINK,
SARAH, IN TERMS OF REGULATION,
IN TERMS OF NEW LAWS, IN TERMS
OF JUST A CHANGE IN WORKPLACE
CULTURE, WHAT'S IT GOING TO TAKE
TO ACHIEVE WHAT WE'RE TALKING
ABOUT HERE?

Sarah says I THINK
THERE'S A LOT OF WORK THAT WE
CAN DO BUT FOR NEW PARENTS,
UNLESS WE SEE CHANGE IN THE
SYSTEM, THERE'S A LIMIT TO WHAT
LAW CAN DO.
WE NEED SOCIAL CHANGE.
FOR EXAMPLE, YOU HAVE A ONE-YEAR
LIMITATION PERIOD TO BRING A
HUMAN RIGHTS TRIBUNAL COMPLAINT,
THAT'S WHERE A LOT OF CONCERNS
END UP, IT'S ACTUALLY THE
LARGEST FORM OF EMPLOYMENT
DISCRIMINATION REPORTED TO THE
ONTARIO HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION
RIGHT NOW.
GENDER DISCRIMINATION, WE KNOW A
BIG PART IS PREGNANCY.

Steve says CAN YOU GIVE ME A
FOR INSTANCE.

Sarah says FOR INSTANCE, IF YOU ARE
TERMINATED ON YOUR LAST DAY
BEFORE GOING ON MAT LEAVE, YOU
HAVE JUST ONE YEAR TO FILE,
PARTICULARLY IF THERE'S ANY
COMPLICATIONS IN YOUR PREGNANCY,
ANY HEALTH ISSUES FOR YOUR
CHILD.
THAT IS A BUSY YEAR FOR
EVERYONE, AND IT'S VERY
DIFFICULT TO MEET THAT
LIMITATION PERIOD.
YOU'RE ALSO REQUIRED TO FIND A
LAWYER OR REPRESENT YOURSELF AT
SIGNIFICANT EXPENSE AT A TIME
WHEN YOUR INCOME IS LOWER AND
YOUR COSTS ARE SUDDENLY HIGHER.
A NEW CHILD IS EXPENSIVE, AS IS
MATERNITY LEAVE, RIGHT?
SO IT'S VERY DIFFICULT FOR WOMEN
TO ASSERT THESE RIGHTS, SO WE
NEED SOMETHING TO HAPPEN
PREVENTATIVE, RIGHT?

Steve says CAN YOU TALK ABOUT
THAT, MICHAEL, HOW YOU MIGHT
SEE... HOW DO YOU CHANGE MEN'S
ATTITUDES IN THE WORKPLACE ABOUT THIS?

Michael says I THINK
THERE ARE SEVERAL THINGS.
AS YOU SAY, IT TAKES LEADERSHIP.
WE NEED MANAGERS, WHEN A MAN OR
A WOMAN IS COMING... YOU KNOW, A
WOMAN IS PREGNANT OR A MAN'S
PARTNER IS PREGNANT OR THEY'RE
ADOPTING, NOT FOR THE MANAGER TO
SAY ARE YOU TAKING PARENTAL
LEAVE OR HOW MANY MONTHS ARE YOU
TAKING?
HOW CAN I WORK WITH YOU TO
PREPARE AN EXIT PLAN?
HOW DO WE ENSURE YOU HAVE A
RE-ENTRY PLAN?
SO THERE ARE THINGS LIKE THAT.

Steve says IS THAT REALISTIC?

Michael says IT IS, ACTUALLY.
I'M WORKING WITH SOME EMPLOYERS
WHO ARE DOING THESE THINGS.
IT'S MAKING A BIG DIFFERENCE IN
TERMS OF THE SATISFACTION OF
THEIR STAFF MEMBERS, AND JUST
THEY'RE MORE PRODUCTIVE.
THEY COPE WITH SITUATIONS BETTER.

Steve says I DO ASK BECAUSE,
YOU KNOW, YOU'VE GOT TO BELIEVE
THAT MOST MANAGERS AND MOST
PRESIDENTS OF COMPANIES DON'T
WANT THEIR MEN TAKING TIME OFF
FOR PARENTAL LEAVE.
I MEAN, THAT'S JUST A REASONABLE
ASSUMPTION, ISN'T IT?

Michael says YES AND NO.
THEY'RE CONFRONTED WITH THE
REALITY OF CHANGING EXPECTATIONS
IN THEIR YOUNGER WORK FORCE, AND
THEY'RE REALIZING NOW THAT THEY
HAD BETTER ADAPT TO CHANGING
REALITIES.

Steve says OR THEY'LL LOSE PEOPLE?

Michael says OR THEY'LL LOSE PEOPLE.
THEY WON'T ATTRACT THE PEOPLE
THEY WANT.
AND THEY ALSO HAVE KIDS OR EVEN
GRANDCHILDREN NOW WHO ARE SAYING
THE SAME THING AND THEY'RE
STARTING TO CATCH ON.
SOME OF IT IS SMALL THINGS AT
WORK PLACES, NOT HAVING CRITICAL
STAFF MEETINGS AT 4:30 IN THE
AFTERNOON WHEN A PARENT IS
RUSHING OFF TO PICK UP KIDS.
THERE'S A LOT OF STUFF LIKE THAT.

Steve says THAT'S COMMON SENSE
CHANGES YOU COULD MAKE IN THE
WORKPLACE, ISN'T IT?
YEAH, YOU REALLY COULD DO THAT.
DO YOU THINK EMPLOYERS BASED ON
WHAT YOU SEE IN YOUR RESEARCH,
DO YOU THINK EMPLOYERS ARE
CONSCIOUSLY MAKING THE DECISION
TO TREAT MEN AND WOMEN
DIFFERENTLY IN THE WORKPLACE?

Margaret says I THINK THEY
WANT TO TREAT PEOPLE FAIRLY AND
THEY WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT
THEIR LIVES ARE GOING TO BE
SATISFIED SO THEY CAN BE MORE
PRODUCTIVE AT WORK.
SO WHATEVER THEY CAN DO TO MAKE
DADS FEELING COMFORTABLE WITH
LEAVE AND TAKING TIME WITH THEIR
CHILDREN, THAT ALSO APPLIES TO
MOTHERS.

Steve says THAT'S A VERY
PROGRESSIVE ATTITUDE.
I COULD BE TOTALLY WRONG WITH
THIS, BUT ARE THERE THAT MANY
PROGRESSIVE EMPLOYERS IN THIS
COUNTRY?

Sarah says YOU WANT
TO BELIEVE EVERYBODY HAS GOOD
INTENTIONS.
OBVIOUSLY BY THE TIME PEOPLE ARE
CALLING ME, THEY HAVE A PROBLEM.
SO I DON'T SEE THE BEST
CROSS-SECTION OF EMPLOYERS IN MY
WORK PARTICULARLY MY PLAINTIFFS
SIDE WORK.

Steve says YOUR DEFAULT
POSITION WOULD PROBABLY BE, MOST
OF THE EMPLOYERS OUT THERE ARE
ROTTEN AND THAT'S WHY I SEE SO
MUCH BUSINESS?
IS.

Sarah says I MEAN, IT'S NOT ROTTEN,
FLAWED.

Steve says A BETTER WAY TO PUT IT.

Sarah says THEY HAVEN'T TURNED THEIR
MINDS TO THESE THINGS, RIGHT?
THAT'S THE BEST CASE SCENARIO,
IS YOU HAVE AN EMPLOYER WHO
SIMPLY HASN'T TURNED THEIR MIND
TO HOW THIS IS IMPACTING PARENTS
IN THE WORKPLACE.
YOU NEED TO TURN YOUR MIND TO
THESE THINGS.
AND I THINK THE IDEA OF LOSING A
WORKER FOR A YEAR TO PARENTAL
LEAVE IS A LOSS TO YOUR BUSINESS
IS SHORT-SIGHTED BECAUSE A HAPPY
EMPLOYEE IS A DEDICATED AND
PRODUCTIVE EMPLOYEE.
AN EMPLOYEE WHO HAS A GOOD HOME
LIFE IS COMING TO WORK HAPPY AND
WORKING HARD FOR YOU EVERY DAY.

Steve says DO YOU WANT TO
FOLLOW UP ON THAT?

Margaret says I AGREE WITH SARAH.
IT'S AMAZING HOW EMPLOYEES WILL
ACTUALLY GIVE BACK IF THEY FEEL
LIKE THE EMPLOYER IS TREATING
THEM WELL.
SERIOUSLY, I THINK IF WE DO THIS
FOR WOMEN WORKERS, THE MEN WILL
BE SO MUCH MORE LIKELY TO TAKE
LEAVE.
EXAMPLE.
LIKE, IF YOU JUST HAVE A BABY,
YOU'RE GOING ON 12 MONTHS MAT
LEAVE, BRING YOUR BABY IN FOR A
STAFF MEETING, A MONTHLY STAFF
MEETING.
YOUR CO-WORKERS CAN MEET YOUR
BABY AND WE CAN GET UP TO DATE
WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE
DEPARTMENT, SOMETHING LIKE THAT,
AND THAT WILL MAKE THEM FEEL
LIKE, OH, I'M NOT TOTALLY OUT OF
SIGHT OUT OF MIND FOR 12 MONTHS
OR 18 MONTHS, DEPENDING ON THE
LENGTH OF THE LEAVE, AND THAT
MAY MAKE THE FATHERS FEEL LIKE,
OH, MAYBE I CAN DO THAT TOO.

Steve says THAT'S HAPPENED HERE
NUMEROUS TIMES.
IT'S A WONDERFUL THING WHEN A
NEW PARENT BRINGS IN A KID.
IT REALLY DOES HUMANIZE THE
WORKPLACE IN A WAY THAT DOING
JOURNALISM IS COMPLETELY INHUMAN.
WHERE ARE WE GOING TO GO ON THIS?
WHAT'S THE LAST THING WE NEED TO KNOW?

Michael says I THINK
THERE ARE SEVERAL THINGS.
ONE IS WE'VE MENTIONED A COUPLE
OF TIMES SOME OF THE NEW
CANADIAN GOVERNMENT POLICIES.
IT ACTUALLY SURPRISES ME THAT
MORE HASN'T BEEN MADE OF THIS.
WE NOW ACROSS CANADA HAVE FIVE
WEEKS OF SO-CALLED DADDY DAYS,
THAT COULD BE USED BY A SECOND
FEMALE PARENT.
AND WHAT WE KNOW THE EVIDENCE
FROM QUEBEC, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU
MENTIONED NORDIC COUNTRIES, BUT
FROM QUEBEC, WHEN THEY BROUGHT
THIS IN IN QUEBEC IN 2006,
BEFORE THEY BROUGHT IT IN, THEY
ALREADY HAD 22 percent OF DADS TAKING
PARENTAL LEAVE.
SO IT WAS ALREADY HIGHER...

Steve says MUCH HIGHER THAN THE
NATIONAL AVERAGE.

Michael says WITHIN FIVE YEARS THAT HAD
GONE UP TO 84 percent.
SO THIS IS GOING TO HAVE A BIG
IMPACT.
WE'RE ABOUT TO SEE A BIG CHANGE
IN CANADA.
WE SHOULD CELEBRATE THAT CHANGE.
WE SHOULD APPRECIATE THAT THE
GOVERNMENT HAS DONE THIS.
WE ALSO NEED MORE THAN THAT.
WE NEED A NATIONAL CHILD CARE
POLICY.
YOU KNOW, YES, IT'S IMPORTANT WE
HAVE BETTER PARENTAL LEAVE AND
KEEP IMPROVING OUR PARENTAL
LEAVE, PAY IT AT A HIGHER LEVEL
AND SO FORTH, BUT WE ALSO NEED
MUCH BETTER CHILD CARE POLICIES.
YOU KNOW, WE NEED... WE NEED
CHILD CARE AS PART OF THE
EDUCATION SYSTEM.
SO WE NEED FREE CHILD CARE FOR
YOUNG KIDS. IT'S JUST TOO HARD
FOR PARENTS.
I'M A GRANDDAD NOW AND WHEN I
SEE WHAT MY SON AND HIS PARTNER
ARE PAYING ON CHILD CARE, IT
IS INSANE. SO WE NEED ACTION.
DON'T YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?

The caption changes to "Producer: Katie O'Connor, @KA_OConnor."

Steve says ON THAT NOTE OF
CONSENSUS, I WANT TO THANK SARAH
MOLYNEAUX FROM MOLYNEAUX LAW,
SHE IS THE LABOUR AND HUMAN
RIGHTS LAWYER, FOR COMING ON
THE PROGRAM TODAY.
MARGARET YAP FROM THE TED ROGERS
SCHOOL OF MANAGEMENT AT RYERSON.
AND MICHAEL KAUFMAN WHO HAS WAY
MORE ON THIS IN HIS BOOK, "THE
TIME HAS COME: WHY MEN MUST JOIN
THE GENDER EQUALITY REVOLUTION."
THANKS, EVERYBODY. GREAT TO
HAVE YOU ALL ON TVO TONIGHT.

The caption changes to "Subscribe to The Agenda Podcast: tvo.org/theagenda."

All the guests say THANK YOU.

Watch: The Cost of Children