Transcript: An Ontario State of Mind | Mar 20, 2019

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, blue shirt, and spotted gray tie.

A caption on screen reads "An Ontario state of mind. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says DOES A FARMER IN
MIDDLESEX COUNTY SEE ONTARIO
COMPLETELY DIFFERENTLY THAN A
CAB DRIVER IN OTTAWA?
OR A MINE TECHNICIAN IN SUDBURY?
IN A PROVINCE THAT'S OFTEN
VIEWED IN REGIONS, DOES WHERE
YOU SIT REALLY DEFINE WHERE YOU
STAND?
A NEW REPORT FROM THE MOWAT
CENTRE QUANTIFIES SOME OF WHAT
WE THINK.
HERE TO EXPLORE OUR REGIONAL
DIFFERENCES, AND SIMILARITIES:
ANDREW PARKIN, HE'S CO-AUTHOR OF
THE REPORT AND DIRECTOR OF THE
MOWAT CENTRE, WHICH IS
ASSOCIATED WITH THE MUNK SCHOOL
OF GLOBAL AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC
POLICY AT THE U OF T...

Andrew is in his forties, clean-shaven, with wavy brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and striped red tie.

Steve continues ASHLEY CHALLINOR, VICE PRESIDENT OF POLICY AT THE ONTARIO CHAMBER
OF COMMERCE...

Ashley is in her late thirties, with long wavy auburn hair. She's wearing a printed gray sweater and a blue chain necklace.

Steve continues AND TRISH HENNESSY, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE UPSTREAM
INSTITUTE, WHICH IS A HEALTH AND
WELL-BEING FOCUSSED THINK TANK.

Trish is in her fifties, with long straight chestnut hair. She's wearing a blue blazer and a black shirt.

Steve continues WE'RE DELIGHTED TO WELCOME
EVERYBODY BACK TO TVO FOR YOUR
SECOND APPEARANCE ON
"THE AGENDA," ALL OF YOU, DEUCES
WILD HERE TONIGHT.
I'M GOING TO SPEND A BIT OF TIME
WITH ANDREW BECAUSE IT'S HIS
STUDY OFF THE TOP TO GET THE
BACKGROUND IN PLACE.
WHY DID YOU WANT TO SPECIFICALLY
LOOK AT HOW THESE REGIONS ARE
DIFFERENT OR SIMILAR?
WHAT WAS THE IDEA THERE?

The caption changes to "Andrew Parkin. Mowat Centre."

Andrew says WE DID A SURVEY ABOUT A YEAR AGO ON A
NUMBER OF DIFFERENT POLICY
ISSUES IN ONTARIO,
FEDERAL-PROVINCIAL ISSUES, TRADE
ISSUES, ECONOMIC ISSUES, SOCIAL
ISSUES.
BUT WE WANTED TO DO IT IN A WAY
THAT COULD TELL A RICHER STORY
ABOUT ONTARIO THAN IS USUALLY
THE CASE.
IN A NATIONAL SURVEY, WHEN YOU
BREAK IT, IN ONTARIO YOU HAVE
ABOUT 400 PEOPLE, YOU'RE REALLY
LOOKING AT THE GREATER GTA AND A
FEW ADD-ONS.
BUT ONTARIO, IT'S GEOGRAPHICALLY
BUILD AND INCREASINGLY DIFFICULT
TO GOVERN.
WE WANTED TO TELL A MORE NUANCED
STORY.
WE BUILT UP THE SAMPLE TO 2,000
ONTARIO WHICH IS LARGE FOR A
SURVEY OF ONE PROVINCE AND THAT
DID THEN ALLOW US TO LOOK AT
DIFFERENT POCKETS AROUND THE
PROVINCE.

Steve says WE DO WANT TO PUT
THIS CHART UP.
YOU HAVE BROKEN UP THE PROVINCE
INTO DIFFERENT REGIONS AND OF
COURSE PROBABLY NO TWO ONTARIANS
AGREE ON WHERE THESE BOUNDARIES
OUGHT TO BE DRAWN.

Andrew says THAT'S RIGHT.

Steve says I'LL START WITH THIS.
AGAIN, I'M GOING TO...
THROUGHOUT THE COURSE OF THIS,
WHEN WE BRING UP GRAPHICS, I'M
GOING TO BE A LITTLE MORE
DESCRIPTIVE THAN I OTHERWISE
WOULD BE, BECAUSE WE HAVE A LOT
OF PEOPLE LISTENING ON PODCASTS
AND THEY CAN'T SEE THESE MAPS.

A map of Ontario appears on screen under the title "Ontario regions referred to in this study."

In different colours, the map shows the urban regions of Toronto 416 and GTA 905, the mostly urban regions of Hamilton-Niagara, Ottawa Belt and 401 Corridor, and the mostly rural regions of Southwest, East and North.

Steve says BASICALLY YOU HAVE A MAP OF THE
SOUTHERN PART OF ONTARIO AND
NORTHERN ONTARIO REALLY COMES
PRETTY FAR SOUTH ON YOUR MAP.

Andrew says IT DOES.

Steve says HOW COME?

The caption changes to "Examining the regions."

Andrew says IT REFLECTS A LITTLE BIT
WHERE PEOPLE LIVE IN THE
PROVINCE.
SO WE HAD TO GET ABOUT EIGHT
REGIONS WHERE WE'VE GOT ROUGHLY
250 RESPONDENTS IN THE SURVEY IN
EACH OF THOSE REGIONS.
IT IS A PECULIAR MAP.
IT'S NOT REALLY HOW PEOPLE WOULD
CALL THEIR REGIONS.
YOU SEE THERE'S ONE REGION THERE
THAT JUST GOES ALONG THE 401,
KIND OF AS YOU GET OUT OF
TORONTO, THROUGH KITCHENER,
LONDON, DOWN TO WINDSOR.

Steve says IS THAT THE ONE IN GREEN?

Andrew says YEAH.
THAT'S BECAUSE WE'RE TRYING TO
LOOK AT URBAN-RURAL DIFFERENCES
AMONG OTHER THINGS.
YOU DON'T REALLY WANT TO LUMP
KITCHENER, LONDON, AND WINDSOR
IN WITH THE MUCH MORE RURAL
AREAS OF SOUTHWEST ONTARIO ON
EITHER SIDE OF THAT.

Steve says GOT IT.

Andrew says IT WAS OUR COLLEAGUES IN
MISSION RESEARCH THAT CARRIED
OUT THE FIELD WORK FOR US THAT
CREATED THIS INSTRUMENT TO HELP
US GET EIGHT GROUPS OF 250
RESPONDENTS THAT GIVES US ENOUGH
TO WORK WITH TO PULL OUT A PAT INTERPRET.

Steve says AGAIN, FOR PODCAST
PEOPLE, YOU HAVE THE 416, MOSTLY URBAN.
THE GTA, GREATER TORONTO AREA,
INCLUDES THE 905.
SOUTHWEST ONTARIO, MOSTLY RURAL.
THE OTTAWA BELT, MOSTLY URBAN.
NORTHERN ONTARIO, MOSTLY RURAL.
AND THE 401 CORRIDOR WHICH YOU
DESCRIBED, MOSTLY URBAN.
IN TERMS OF... OKAY.
SO YOU TOLD US 2,000 PEOPLE
SURVEYED, WHICH GIVES YOU A MUCH
RICHER FLAVOUR OF WHAT PEOPLE
THINK AS OPPOSED TO THE 400 OR SO.
AGAIN, WOULD IT BE THE SAME KIND
OF DYNAMIC, HALF OF THEM IN THE
GREATER TORONTO AREA, HALF OF
THEM EVERYWHERE ELSE.

The caption changes to "Andrew Parkin, @parkinac."

Andrew says THERE'S 250 IN 416, 250 IN
905, AND ROUGHLY 250 IN THE
EIGHT AREAS YOU SEE.

Steve says 250 PLUS 250 IS 500
IN THE GTA BUT STILL ONLY A
QUARTER OF THE PROVINCE.
SO YOU ARE GOING TO GET SOME OF
THOSE NUANCES YOU MIGHT
OTHERWISE NOT GET.
THAT'S THE IDEA HERE.

vsays THAT'S RIGHT.

Steve says LET'S GET INTO THIS
HERE.
WE'RE GOING TO PLUCK OUT OF THIS
REPORT SEVERAL OF THE DIFFERENT
THINGS THAT YOU'VE BEEN
SURVEYING, BUT LET ME GET THE
OVERARCHING COMMENTS FROM YOU
TWO FIRST BEFORE WE GO FURTHER.
YOU HAVE READ THE STUDY.
WHAT JUMPED OUT AT YOU?

The caption changes to "Ashley Challinor. Ontario Chamber of Commerce."

Ashley says WE ACTUALLY RELEASED OUR OWN
ONTARIO ECONOMIC REPORT
RECENTLY, JUST IN FEBRUARY, AND
WHAT REALLY STRUCK ME ABOUT
ANDREW'S STUDY IS HOW IT KIND OF
MIRRORED AND SPOKE TO IN MANY
WAYS THE SURVEY THAT WE DID OF
OUR MEMBERS, OF BUSINESSES.
IN PARTICULAR, WE'VE LOOKED AT
HOW ONTARIO HAS RECOVERED FROM
THE RECESSION, LOOKING AT
EMPLOYMENT GROWTH WITH RESPECT
TO ONTARIO'S REGIONS.
WE FOUND THAT, YOU KNOW, THE
TORONTO AND GTA AREA REALLY
OUTPACED EVERYONE ELSE, AND YOU
COULD SEE ACROSS THE PROVINCE
MUCH LOWER EMPLOYMENT GROWTH
OVER THE PAST 15 YEARS AND IN
THE NORTH ACTUALLY DECLINED.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE ACTUAL DATA
FROM THE MOWAT STUDY, YOU SEE
THERE'S A GREATER POSITIVITY IN
THE ECONOMY IN TORONTO THAN
THERE ARE IN OTHER REGIONS AND
THAT MAKES COMPLETE SENSE TO US
WHEN WE LOOK AT OUR DATA AND SEE
WHERE EMPLOYMENT GROWTH HAS
BEEN.
SO IT'S NOT SURPRISING THAT
TORONTO IS FAR MORE OPTIMISTIC
THAN OTHER REGIONS OF ONTARIO.

Steve says TRISH, WHAT DID YOU FIND?

The caption changes to "Trish Hennessy. Upstream Institute."

Trish says WELL, YOU KNOW, YOU GO LOOKING FOR
DIFFERENCES AND SOMETIMES YOU
FIND COMMONALITIES.
I THOUGHT THERE WERE A LOT OF
COMMONALITIES IN TERMS OF HOW
PEOPLE ACROSS THIS VERY
DIFFERENT, DIVERSE, EXPANSIVE
PROVINCE LOOK AT DIFFERENT
ISSUES.
THE ONE FINDING THAT JUMPED OUT
AT ME WAS JOB SECURITY.
THE PLURALITY... IT DOESN'T
MATTER WHERE YOU LIVE, IF YOUR
ECONOMY IS GETTING LEFT BEHIND,
IF YOU'RE IN ECONOMIC DISTRESS,
OR IF YOUR ECONOMY IS DOING
REALLY WELL, A PLURALITY OF
RESPONDENTS SAID WE'RE WORRIED
ABOUT JOB SECURITY.

Steve says LET'S PUT THOSE
NUMBERS UP RIGHT NOW SINCE
YOU'VE COME TO IT.
HERE IS THE FIRST OF SEVERAL
GRAPHS WE'RE GOING TO SHARE WITH
OUR AUDIENCE.
THEY ASKED HOW CONCERNED ARE YOU
ABOUT FULL-TIME EMPLOYMENT?

A slate appears on screen, with the title "How concerned are you about full-time employment?"

A bar chart shows the percentage of concerned versus not concerned in the different regions shown in the previous map.

Steve continues YOU'RE QUITE RIGHT.
THESE NUMBERS ARE, YOU KNOW, PUT
IT THIS WAY, ASHLEY IS RIGHT, IN
THE GTA AND THE 401 CORRIDOR AND
SORT OF CLOSER TO THOSE AREAS
YOU GET, THERE IS A LOT MORE
CONCERN.
65 PERCENT IN THE GTA AND 905
ARE CONCERNED, IN THE 401
CORRIDOR WHICH GOES ALL THE WAY
DOWN TO SOUTHWESTERN ONTARIO, 6.
HAMILTON-NIAGARA, 63 PERCENT
AGAIN.
IN EASTERN ONTARIO, 61.
THE PROVINCIAL AVERAGE IS 61.
HOW CONCERNED ARE YOU ABOUT
FULL-TIME EMPLOYMENT?
IN TORONTO 416, 58 PERCENT.
STILL MORE THAN HALF.
THIS IS INTERESTING, THOUGH,
ANDREW.
HOW CONCERNED ARE YOU ABOUT
FULL-TIME EMPLOYMENT?
IN NORTHERN ONTARIO, ONLY
57 PERCENT, THE LOWEST NUMBER OF
THOSE SURVEYED.
THAT IS OPPOSITE TO WHAT I
SUSPECT MOST PEOPLE WOULD THINK. HOW COME?

The caption changes to "Job insecurity."

Andrew says I THINK IT'S
ALSO OPPOSITE FROM WHAT ASHLEY
WAS SAYING IN THE SENSE THAT
THEY'RE ALSO THE MOST LIKELY TO
SAY THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT THE
CONDITION OF THEIR LOCAL ECONOMY
BUT THEY'RE FEELING A LITTLE
BETTER ABOUT THE JOBS.
I THINK IT COULD HAVE TO DO WITH
THE NATURE OF THE LABOUR MARKET
IN MORE PLACES, THERE'S MORE
CHURN, I THINK, IN A
METROPOLITAN... YOU KNOW, THE
MAJOR METROPOLITAN AREA, THERE'S
PROBABLY MORE PEOPLE MOVING IN
AND OUT OF TEMPORARY JOBS THAN
THERE MIGHT BE IN OTHER PARTS OF
THE PROVINCE.
I WANT TO GET BACK TO WHAT TRISH
AND ASHLEY BOTH SAID.
I THINK THEY BOTH CAPTURED THE
TWO SIDES OF THE COIN THAT WE'RE
LOOKING AT.
ON A NUMBER OF THE QUESTIONS
WHERE WE MIGHT THINK THAT THERE
WOULD BE BIG DIFFERENCES, THERE
AREN'T, RIGHT?
IS THERE'S A LOT OF COMMONALITY
OF EXPERIENCES THAT COMES OUT OF
THIS.
AND THAT'S ACTUALLY DIFFERENT
FROM WHAT ONTARIANS THEMSELVES
THINK, BECAUSE ONE OF THE
QUESTIONS IN THE SURVEY WAS: DO
YOU THINK THAT PEOPLE WHO LIVE
IN URBAN AND RURAL AREAS HAVE
THE SAME VALUES?
AND MOST ONTARIANS DON'T THINK
THEY.
THEY DISAGREE.
THEY THINK THERE MUST BE
DIFFERENCES.
AND YET WE SEE ON A NUMBER OF
QUESTIONS THERE AREN'T.
BUT THERE'S ONE BIG EXCEPTION TO
THAT, AND THAT IS THOSE
QUESTIONS THAT ARE ABOUT, HOW IS
YOUR LOCAL COMMUNITY DOING?
HOW IS YOUR LOCAL ECONOMY DOING?
SO ASHLEY POINTED OUT ONE
EXAMPLE.
ANOTHER EXAMPLE IS ON TRADE.
INTERNATIONAL TRADE.
IF YOU ASKED ONTARIANS ABOUT, DO
YOU LIKE FREE TRADE?
SHOULD WE HAVE MORE TRADE
AGREEMENTS WITH OTHER COUNTRIES?
THEY'RE IN UNIFORM AGREEMENT AND
POSITIVE FEELING ABOUT THAT.
IF YOU ASK ONTARIANS, HOW HAVE
THE TRADE AGREEMENTS WE HAVE NOW
AFFECTED YOUR LOCAL COMMUNITY?
YOU GET THE PATTERN THAT ASHLEY
POINTED OUT, THAT THOSE ARE THE
QUESTIONS WHERE THERE IS AN
URBAN-RURAL DIFFERENCE, THERE'S
A NORTH-SOUTH DIFFERENCE, BUT
THERE'S A GENERAL PATTERN WHERE
THE BIGGER A CITY YOU LIVE IN,
THE MORE YOU THINK THAT FREE
TRADE IS WORKING FOR YOU.
THE SMALLER A COMMUNITY YOU LIVE
IN, THE MORE YOU'RE NOT SURE.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Steve says ASHLEY, I KNOW
YOU'RE NOT A DEMOGRAPHER, BUT I
DO WANT TO ASK YOU THIS QUESTION
ANYWAY.
BECAUSE WE ARE... WE ARE
EXPERIENCING UNEMPLOYMENT RATES
RIGHT NOW THAT HAVEN'T BEEN THIS
LOW IN FOUR DECADES.
AND YET YOU ARE STILL SEEING IN
SOME POCKETS OF THIS PROVINCE
TWO-THIRDS OF THE PEOPLE SAYING
THEY ARE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT
THEIR PROSPECTS FOR EMPLOYMENT.
HOW DOES THAT MAKE SENSE?

Ashley says WELL, THAT WAS ONE OF THE MORE FASCINATING THINGS WE SAW IN THE
DATA: HOW DO YOU SQUARE THAT
CIRCLE?
IN THEORY, PEOPLE SHOULD BE VERY
CONFIDENT WHEN THEY LOOK AT THE
UNEMPLOYMENT RATE.
THEY SHOULD SEE IT AS A SELLER'S
MARKET FOR THEIR LABOUR.
BUT THAT'S NOT HAPPENING.
YOU KNOW, OUR ASSESSMENT OF THIS
IS RELATED TO THE CHANGING
LABOUR MARKET.
WE'RE HEARING A LOT ABOUT
DISRUPTION.
WE'RE HEARING A LOT ABOUT
AUTOMATION AND A.I.
SO PEOPLE MAY BE CONCERNED ABOUT
NOT NECESSARILY THEIR JOB RIGHT
NOW BUT WHAT DOES THE FUTURE OF
THEIR JOB LOOK LIKE?
MAYBE THEY'RE THINKING, I KNOW
WHAT MY SKILL-SET IS, BUT IS
THAT SKILL-SET STILL GOING TO BE
OF VALUE IN THE FUTURE AND THAT
COULD CREATE A LOT OF
UNCERTAINTY.

Steve says ANYTHING YOU WANT TO
ADD IN TERMS OF THAT DISCONNECT?

Trish says I ACTUALLY
THINK THE RESPONDENTS HAVE
DIAGNOSED THE PROBLEM.
THE ONTARIO ECONOMY IS
UNDERGOING A MAJOR SHIFT.
SO THERE'S A LOT OF WORRY AND
UNCERTAINTY OUT THERE.
YOU KNOW, FINDINGS IN THIS
SURVEY CAN BE REPLICATED AND
SEEN IN OTHER SURVEYS, NATIONAL
AND PROVINCIAL, THAT SHOW A
DECLINING NUMBER OF PEOPLE
IDENTIFY THEMSELVES AS MIDDLE
CLASS, THAT REVEALS A SENSE OF
ANXIETY ABOUT THE FUTURE,
ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU START
TALKING ABOUT YOUR KIDS' AND
YOUR GRANDKIDS' FUTURE.
I THINK CONCERN ABOUT THE
ECONOMY IS THE THREAD THAT RUNS
THROUGH IT ALL.

Steve says LET'S BRING UP THE
SECOND OF THE SEVERAL GRAPHS
WE'RE GOING TO BRING UP DURING
THE COURSE OF OUR CONVERSATION
HERE.
SHELDON, IF YOU GO TO THE NEXT
ONE.
THIS IS ONE WHERE THE MOWAT
CENTRE ASKS: WHAT IMPACT DO YOU
THINK GOVERNMENTS HAVE ON PEOPLE'S LIVES...

Another bar chart compares, for each region, the percentage of people who think government has a positive impact on people's lives versus a negative impact.

Steve continues AND THEY ASK THIS
QUESTION PRESUMABLY TO GET A
SENSE OF WHETHER PEOPLE THINK
POSITIVELY ABOUT THE IMPACT
GOVERNMENTS CAN HAVE OR WHETHER
THEY THINK THE IMPACT IS MORE
NEGATIVE.
AGAIN, THE OLD EXPRESSION, WHERE
YOU STAND DEPENDS ON WHERE YOU
SIT.
I'LL GO THROUGH THIS IN SOME
DETAIL AGAIN FOR PEOPLE
LISTENING ON PODCAST.
THE PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE WHO
THINK THAT THE GOVERNMENT CAN
HAVE A POSITIVE IMPACT IN
PEOPLE'S LIVES: TORONTO, 416,
41 percent.
IN THE OTTAWA BELT, 37 percent.
GTA, 905, 30 percent.
THE AVERAGE ACROSS ONTARIO IS
30 percent.
ONLY THREE IN TEN PEOPLE THINK
THAT GOVERNMENT... WE'RE TALKING
MUNICIPAL, PROVINCIAL, AND
FEDERAL... ONLY THREE IN TEN
THINK GOVERNMENTS HAVE A
POSITIVE IMPACT ON THEIR LIVES.
AND AS YOU GO FURTHER DOWN, ONLY
A QUARTER OF THE PEOPLE IN
EASTERN AND SOUTHWESTERN
ONTARIO, 23 percent IN THE NORTH, 22 percent
HAMILTON-NIAGARA, AND THAT 401
CORRIDOR, 22 percent.
CONVERSELY, THE PERCENTAGE OF
PEOPLE WHO SAY GOVERNMENTS HAVE
A NEGATIVE IMPACT ON PEOPLE'S
LIVES.
IN SOUTHWESTERN ONTARIO, WHICH
DESPITE THE LOW UNEMPLOYMENT
RATES GENERALLY, STILL FACING
TOUGH ECONOMIC TIMES, SIX OUT OF
TEN PEOPLE, SIX OUT OF AT THE
POINT IN THE NORTH, ALMOST SIX
OUT OF TEN IN THE 401 CORRIDOR,
56 PERCENT IN THE EAST.
49 PERCENT IS THE AVERAGE.
OTTAWA BELT, 47 PERCENT.
GTA-905, 47 PERCENT.
THERE YOU GET TO THE CAPITAL
CITY, TORONTO-416, AND ONLY
33 PERCENT OF THE PEOPLE THINK
GOVERNMENTS HAVE A NEGATIVE
IMPACT ON THEIR LIVES.
IT PAYS TO LIVE IN THE CAPITAL
CITY, I GUESS, EH?
IS THAT PART OF IT?

Andrew says I THINK
THAT'S PART OF IT.
I'M GOING TO SAY THIS ABOUT
THIS, BECAUSE THIS IS THE ONE
WHERE YOU LOOK AT AND YOU SEE,
YOU KNOW, THERE IS A DIFFERENCE,
THERE'S A RANGE OF DIFFERENCE.
WHERE YOU SIT CAN AFFECT YOUR
VIEW.
BUT IT'S NOT A PREDICTABLE
PATTERN, RIGHT?
IT'S NOT URBAN-RURAL DIFFERENCE,
IT'S NOT NORTH-SOUTH DIFFERENCE.
THE AREA OF THE PROVINCE THAT'S
LEAST LIKELY TO SAY THAT
GOVERNMENTS HAVE A POSITIVE
IMPACT ON MOST PEOPLE'S LIVES IS
KITCHENER-WATERLOO CAMBRIDGE
LONDON WINDSOR.
THOSE ARE PROSPEROUS CITIES IN
MANY WAYS.

Steve says KITCHENER-WATERLOO...

Andrew says YEAH, LESS SO, EXACTLY.
BUT THEY'RE URBAN, SORRY.
AND SO THIS IS THE ONE WHERE IT
DEFINITELY IS.
IT'S TORONTO THAT STANDS OUT THE
MOST.
A LITTLE BIT OTTAWA.
DOES IT PAY TO LIVE CLOSER TO
GOVERNMENT?
YOU SEE GOVERNMENT.
GOVERNMENT IS VISIBLE.
IN A BIG CITY LIKE TORONTO YOU
CAN RELY ON THINGS LIKE PUBLIC
TRANSIT AND A NUMBER OF OTHER
THINGS, MAYBE TO A CERTAIN
DEGREE MORE THAN OTHERS.
SO, SURE, IT PAYS TO LIVE IN A
CAPITAL CITY.

Steve says WHAT DID YOU
CONCLUDE FROM SEEING THOSE NUMBERS?

Ashley says I THOUGHT IT WAS VERY TELLING
THAT THOSE THREE AREAS THAT
BENEFITED THE MOST AFTER THE
RECESSION RECOVERY ARE ALSO
ABOVE AVERAGE IN THEIR
PERSPECTIVE ON GOVERNMENT THAT
WERE MORE LIKELY TO VIEW IT AS
POSITIVE.
THIS TELLS US REALLY ABOUT A
DIFFERENT DIVIDE, AND THAT'S THE
REGIONS OF ONTARIO THAT CAME OUT
AHEAD OR AT LEAST RECOVERED
AFTER THE RECESSION, AND THOSE
REGIONS OF ONTARIO THAT DIDN'T
OR ARE STILL STRUGGLING.

Steve says LET ME PUT THIS
QUESTION TO YOU, TRISH, THIS
WAY: I THINK YOU REPRESENT AN
ORGANIZATION THAT BELIEVES IN
THE POWER OF GOVERNMENT TO DO
GOOD THINGS FOR PEOPLE.

Trish says MM-HMM.

Steve says AND THESE NUMBERS
SHOW THAT BY A 19 PERCENT GAP,
WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, FAIRLY
SIZABLE, PEOPLE HAVE A FAIRLY
NEGATIVE VIEW ABOUT WHAT
GOVERNMENTS CAN OR CANNOT DO IN
THEIR LIVES.
DO YOU FIND THAT DISTRESSING?

The caption changes to "Trish Hennessy, @trishhennessy."

Trish says YEAH, THIS
IS ACTUALLY ONE OF THE MORE
DEPRESSING RESULTS OUT OF THE
WHOLE SURVEY FOR ME.
BUT IT'S ONE OF THOSE QUESTIONS
THAT RAISE EVEN MORE QUESTIONS
FOR ME.
SO WHICH LEVEL OF GOVERNMENT ARE
THEY DAMNING, YOU KNOW?
DO THEY FEEL MORE FAVOURABLE
TOWARD THEIR LOCAL GOVERNMENT
BUT FEEL THAT SENIOR
GOVERNMENTS, ESPECIALLY IF
YOU'RE IN A COMMUNITY WHERE YOUR
ECONOMY HAS BEEN LEFT BEHIND AND
YOU MIGHT SAY THE SENIOR LEVELS
OF GOVERNMENT DON'T CARE ABOUT
MY COMMUNITY, ESPECIALLY IF
YOU'RE IN A RURAL COMMUNITY OR
YOU'RE IN THE NORTH WHERE THOSE
ECONOMIES HAVE BEEN RESTRUCTURED
A LONG TIME AGO, WHERE YOU'RE IN
COMMUNITIES YOU KNOW YOUR KIDS
ARE GOING TO GO TO UNIVERSITY
AND PROBABLY ARE NOT GOING TO
COME BACK BECAUSE THE
OPPORTUNITY ISN'T THERE.
SO I THINK... I AGREE WITH YOU
ON THAT.
I THINK THIS IS REFLECTING THE
ECONOMIC REALITY AND THE CONCERN
ABOUT ECONOMIC FORTUNES AND FUTURES.

Steve says I'M NOT TRYING TO
TELL YOU HOW TO DO YOUR JOB
HERE, BUT TRISH HAS RAISED THE
ISSUE OF WHETHER OR NOT PEOPLE
SEE A DISTINCTION BETWEEN...
MAYBE THEY LIKE THEIR LOCAL
GOVERNMENT BUT THEY'RE NOT NUTTY
BANANAS ABOUT SENIOR LEVELS OF
GOVERNMENT.
SHOULD THE QUESTION HAVE BEEN
BROKEN UP DIFFERENTLY?

The caption changes to "Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live."

Andrew says WE
DELIBERATELY PHRASED IT THIS WAY
SO IT WOULDN'T BLEED INTO WHICH
GOVERNMENT AT WHICH TIME.
WE WANTED THAT CONSISTENCY.
COULD YOU HAVE FOLLOW-UP
QUESTIONS ON THOSE ISSUES?
ABSOLUTELY.
WE DON'T HAVE THEM RIGHT HERE,
BUT IT'S A TOTALLY INTERESTING
THING THAT PEOPLE COULD GET INTO.

Steve says LET ME TRY THIS WITH
ASHLEY.
IF YOU ARE SOMEBODY WHO WORKS IN
GOVERNMENT AND YOU ARE WATCHING
THIS RIGHT NOW, YOU'RE AN
ELECTED OFFICIAL SOMEWHERE,
MUNICIPALLY, PROVINCIALLY,
FEDERALLY, AND YOU SEE THIS
BELIEVABILITY GAP, YOU'RE 19
POINTS UNDERWATER ON AVERAGE
ACROSS THE PROVINCE, WHAT SHOULD
YOU INFER FROM THAT?

Ashley says WELL,
SPEAKING PROVINCIALLY, I THINK
THAT THEY COULD INFER THAT
THERE'S A CERTAIN FEELING OF
NEGLECT AMONGST REGIONS IN
ONTARIO.
THERE ARE MANY REGIONS THAT ARE
UNABLE TO PERFORM TO THE LEVEL
OF THEIR POTENTIAL BECAUSE OF A
LACK OF INVESTMENT FROM
GOVERNMENT, INFRASTRUCTURE BEING
TOP OF THAT LIST.
I THINK WE TALK A LOT ABOUT
TRANSIT AND TRANSPORTATION
INFRASTRUCTURE, AND THAT'S
CRITICAL, BUT INFRASTRUCTURE
ALSO INCLUDES THINGS LIKE
HIGH-SPEED INTERNET, WHICH IS
REALLY KEY TO UNLOCKING BUSINESS
WITH RESPECT TO REACHING GLOBAL
MARKETS OR MARKETS ELSEWHERE.
BUT ALSO GIVING PEOPLE THE
OPPORTUNITY TO EDUCATE
THEMSELVES, TO ENGAGE IN
TRAINING, AND TO ENGAGE WITH THE
WORLD OUTSIDE OF THEIR REGION.
SO WHEN GOVERNMENT ISN'T PUTTING
THAT MONEY TOWARDS THESE THINGS
THAT BENEFIT NOT ONLY BUSINESS
BUT ONTARIANS GENERALLY, THEN OF
COURSE THEY'RE GOING TO FEEL
LIKE, NOT ONLY ARE THEY BEING
LEFT BEHIND BY THE ECONOMY, BUT
THEY'RE BEING LEFT BEHIND BY THE
GOVERNMENT AS WELL.

Steve says TRISH, HOW WOULD YOU
RESPOND TO THAT?

The caption changes to "Subscribe to The Agenda Podcast: tvo.org-theagenda."

Trish says I WOULD
AGREE TO THAT AND I WOULD ADD TO IT.
THERE ARE ANSWERS IN THIS
SURVEY.
SO THE PEOPLE IN THIS SURVEY
CORRECTLY DIAGNOSED THE
PROBLEMS, AND I THINK THAT
THEY'RE RESPONDING TO GOVERNMENT
WHO MAY ONLY BE REACTING TO SOME
OF THE SYMPTOMS AND NOT GETTING
TO THE WORST OF THE PROBLEM.
THERE WAS PLENTY OF EVIDENCE IN
THIS SURVEY THAT ONTARIANS, NO
MATTER WHERE YOU LIVE, ACTUALLY
WANT GOVERNMENTS TO INVEST IN
UPSTREAM THINKING.
THEIR TOP PRIORITIES INCLUDE
INVEST MORE IN HEALTH CARE.
EDUCATION WAS UP THERE TOO.
AND THEN THEY SEE THEIR
GOVERNMENT ACTUALLY BRINGING IN
AUSTERITY AGENDAS ON THESE FRONTS.
SO THE TWO DON'T JIBE.
AND YOU'RE GETTING JUDGED FOR THAT.

Steve says THUS THE NAME OF
YOUR ORGANIZATION.
YOU WANT PROBLEMS FIXED UPSTREAM
BEFORE THE PROBLEMS HAPPEN, LEFT
YOU HAVE TO FIX THEM DOWNSTREAM
WHEN IT COSTS TWICE AS MUCH.

Trish says IT'S A DIFFERENT APPROACH TO
POLICY MAKING THAN WE'VE BEEN
DOING AT EVERY JURISDICTIONAL
LEVEL ACROSS CANADA.

Steve says YOU ARE ALL
CANADIANS.
YOU ARE ALL ONTARIANS.
HOW MANY TORONTONIANS DO WE HAVE
HERE?
TORONTONIAN.

Andrew says MONTREAL.

Steve says MONTREAL.

Trish says RURAL SASKATCHEWAN, BUT I
HAVE LIVED IN THUNDER BAY,
HAMILTON, KINGSTON, OTTAWA, AND
TORONTO.

Steve says YOU'RE PLENTY ONTARIAN.

Trish says I'VE LIVED EVERYWHERE, MAN.

Steve says MOWAT CENTRE ASKED A
QUESTION ABOUT HOW ATTACHED
PEOPLE FEEL TO THE VARIOUS WAYS
WE HAVE OF DESCRIBING OURSELVES,
AND SHALL WE BRING THOSE NUMBERS
UP HERE?

A slate appears on screen, with the title "Attachment of Ontarians."

Steve reads data from the slate and says
HOW ATTACHED DO WE FEEL TO CANADA?
AND APPARENTLY 73 PERCENT OF US
IN THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO FEEL
VERY ATTACHED TO CANADA.
LET'S KEEP GOING.
VERY OR SOMEWHAT ATTACHED TO
CANADA?
93 PERCENT.
THAT'S A PRETTY GOOD NUMBER.
I WANT TO MEET THE 7 PERCENT OF
PEOPLE WHO DON'T FEEL ATTACHED
TO CANADA AS ONTARIANS.
HOW ABOUT VERY OR SOMEWHAT
ATTACHED TO THE PROVINCE OF
ONTARIO?
85 PERCENT.
AND LET'S REVEAL ONE MORE: VERY
OR SOMEWHAT ATTACHED TO THE CITY
OR THE TOWN OR THE REGION IN
WHICH WE LIVE?
83 PERCENT.
FASCINATING.
ANDREW, WHAT DID YOU INFER FROM THAT?

Andrew says I THINK WHAT
I INFERRED IS WHERE YOU GO NEXT
OR WHERE I WENT WITH THAT.
BECAUSE I HAD ASSUMED THAT...
SO, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE FEEL GOOD
ABOUT THE COUNTRY, THEY FEEL
GOOD ABOUT THE PROVINCE, THEY
FEEL GOOD ABOUT THE COMMUNITY
THAT THEY LIVE IN.
I HAD ASSUMED THE SMALLER THE
TOWN YOU LIVE IN, THE MORE
ATTACHED YOU ARE TO IT.
MAYBE YOU KNOW YOUR NEIGHBOURS.
MAYBE YOUR FAMILY HAS BEEN THERE
FOR SEVERAL GENERATIONS.
WHEREAS TORONTO IS A NEWCOMER
CITY.
IF YOU GO BEYOND THAT AND YOU
LOOK AGAIN BY REGION, WHERE DO
PEOPLE FEEL MOST STRONGLY TO
THEIR LOCAL COMMUNITY, IT'S
ACTUALLY IN THE 416.
AND MAYBE RETROSPECTIVELY, THAT
KIND OF MADE SENSE WHEN I
THOUGHT ABOUT IT A BIT MORE.
NONETHELESS, I WOULD HAVE
THOUGHT THAT ATTACHMENT TO YOUR
COMMUNITY WAS A SMALL TOWN THING
AND THE SURVEY TOLD ME THAT I
WAS WRONG, THAT IT'S A BIG CITY
THING.

Steve says PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN
THIS CITY OVERWHELMINGLY SEEM TO
LIKE THIS CITY.

Andrew says YEAH.
THEY FEEL ATTACHED TO IT.

Steve says ALL OF ITS PROBLEMS
NOTWITHSTANDING.

Andrew says EXACTLY.

Steve says TRISH, THE NUMBER
THAT I... THE CONVENTIONAL
WISDOM IS, ONTARIANS DON'T SEE
THEMSELVES AS ONTARIANS, THEY
SEE THEMSELVES AS CANADIANS
FIRST, ONTARIANS SECOND.
THESE NUMBERS SEEM TO CONFIRM
THAT.
93 PERCENT OF PEOPLE FEEL VERY
OR SOMEWHAT ATTACHED TO CANADA.
83 PERCENT OF PEOPLE FEEL VERY
OR SOMEWHAT... SORRY, 85 PERCENT
VERY OR SOMEWHAT ATTACHED TO THE
PROVINCE.
ANY IDEA WHY WE STILL SEE
OURSELVES AS CANADIANS FIRST,
ONTARIANS FIRST?
QUEBECERS DON'T.
ALBERTANS DON'T.
BRITISH COLUMBIANS DON'T.

Trish says I THINK THERE'S A DEEP
HISTORY THERE.
I'M HAVING THIS FLASHBACK TO
1990 AND PUTTING ALL OF MY
HUMBLE BELONGINGS INTO A SMALL
PONTIAC ACADIAN AND DRIVING FROM
MOOSE JAW TO THUNDER BAY, WHERE
I WAS GOING TO WORK FOR THE
CHRONICLE JOURNAL.
AND IMMEDIATELY I UNDERSTOOD
THAT NO MATTER WHERE YOU ARE IN
ONTARIO, YOU SEE YOURSELF AS
LEADERS IN CANADA.
YOU SEE THE NATIONAL PROJECT AS
WELL AS YOUR LOCAL OR PROVINCIAL
PROJECT.
AND IT WAS VERY DIFFERENT COMING
FROM SASKATCHEWAN WHERE, OF
COURSE, YOU KNOW, OTTAWA WAS
KIND OF LIKE A SWEAR WORD, YOU
KNOW?

Steve says YOU DO GET TO BOAST
ABOUT BEING THE PARENTS OF
MEDICARE, THOUGH, FROM
SASKATCHEWAN?

Trish says WE DO.
WE ABSOLUTELY DO.

Steve says YOU DO GET TO DO THAT.

Trish says WE GOT IT RIGHT FIRST.

Steve says ASHLEY, HOW ABOUT YOU?

Ashley says WHAT I
FOUND MOST INTERESTING IS THE
LEVEL OF ATTACHMENT TO CITY AND
TOWN AND REGION.
THIS IS SOMETHING THAT DIDN'T
REALLY SURPRISE ME.
WE HAVE WITHIN OUR NETWORK ABOUT
135 CHAMBERS OF COMMERCE AND
BOARDS OF TRADE ACROSS ONTARIO,
AND THESE ARE COMMUNITY
INSTITUTIONS THAT ARE LED OFTEN
BY VOLUNTEERS, BUSINESS LEADERS
IN THE COMMUNITY WHO ARE VERY
SERIOUS ABOUT THEIR COMMUNITY
AND ITS PROSPERITY.
SO THAT MAKES COMPLETE SENSE TO
ME THAT WE HAVE THAT STRONG
ATTACHMENT TO OUR LOCAL
COMMUNITIES.
BUT IT DID MAKE ME THINK ABOUT
WHAT THE WIDER IMPLICATIONS OF
THAT ATTACHMENT IS.
FOR EXAMPLE, WHAT DOES IT SAY
ABOUT LABOUR MOBILITY IN
ONTARIO.
IF PEOPLE ARE VERY ATTACHED TO
THEIR LOCAL COMMUNITIES, DOES
THAT MEAN THEY ARE MORE LIKELY
TO TURN DOWN ECONOMIC OR
EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITIES
ELSEWHERE?
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR REGIONS
OF ONTARIO THAT ARE TRYING TO
ATTRACT PEOPLE, AND WHAT DOES
THAT MEAN FOR THE SKILLS
MISMATCH.
EMPLOYERS ARE TRYING TO FIND THE
RIGHT PERSON FOR THE RIGHT JOB.
WHAT IF THOSE PEOPLE AREN'T IN
THEIR LOCAL COMMUNITY.

Steve says THOSE ARE GOOD
QUESTIONS.

Ashley says IT'S PERHAPS CONCERNING.
GENERALLY POSITIVE.

Steve says ONE OF THE THINGS
WE'RE TOLD UNITES THE COUNTRY
AND UNITES THE PROVINCE, OUTSIDE
TORONTO, IS HATRED FOR TORONTO.
THAT TORONTO IS A BIT OF AN
OUTLIER IN SO MANY WAYS.
WHEN YOU DID THIS SURVEY,
ANDREW, DID YOU FIND THAT
TORONTO IS THE OUTLIER THAT
THEREFORE LEADS TO A GREAT DEAL
OF ANTIPATHY OUTSIDE OF THE CITY?

The caption changes to "Toronto versus everyone."

Andrew says IT IS.
I CAN'T COMMENT ON WHETHER THAT
IS THE CAUSE OF ANTIPATHY.
CERTAINLY THAT'S A PATTERN.
WE'VE BEEN THROUGH A COUPLE OF
THINGS.
ON SOME OF THOSE ECONOMIC
QUESTIONS, THERE IS AN
URBAN-RURAL DIFFERENCE.
ON SOME OF THE VALUES QUESTIONS
ABOUT PREFERENCES, THERE'S VERY
LITTLE DIFFERENCE ACROSS THE
PROVINCE.
BUT ANOTHER ONE OF THE PATTERNS
THAT COMES OUT IS, ON A NUMBER
OF THE QUESTIONS WE ASKED, IT'S
NOT AN URBAN-RURAL DIFFERENCE,
FROM THE GTA TO HAMILTON AND SO
ON, IT'S MOST ONTARIANS THINK
ROUGHLY ALIKE, AND THEN THERE'S
TORONTO.
I DON'T WANT TO EXAGGERATE, IT'S
NOT NIGHT AND DAY.
BUT TORONTO DOES HAVE A SERIES
OF PREFERENCES ON POLITICAL AND
POLICY QUESTIONS THAT IS A
LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT FROM
EVERYONE ELSE ON QUESTIONS LIKE
IMMIGRATION, WHAT WE'VE SEEN
WITH THE ROLE OF GOVERNMENT,
EVEN ON THINGS LIKE ISSUES
AROUND RECONCILIATION AND
RELATIONS WITH INDIGENOUS
PEOPLE.
IT'S NOT... YOU KNOW, YOU CAN
HAVE THE QUESTIONS WHERE THE
NORTH OF ONTARIO AND HAMILTON
LOOK VERY SIMILAR, AND THE EAST
OF ONTARIO AND THAT 401 CORRIDOR
LOOK VERY SIMILAR.
AND THOSE ARE DISSIMILAR
REGIONS.
AND TO SEE THAT THEY'RE NOT
DIVIDED ON THESE ISSUES WAS
INTERESTING.
SO, YES, TORONTO STANDS OUT.
I JUST CAN'T COMMENT ON WHETHER
THAT'S... THAT'S WHY PEOPLE...
WHETHER IT'S THE TRAFFIC OR THE
BLUE JAYS OR WHATEVER.
YOU MAY BE BETTER-PLACED TO
COMMENT ON IT THAN I AM.

Steve says GIVEN THAT YOU'VE
LIVED... HAVE YOU LIVED IN TORONTO?

Andrew says MM-HMM.
FOR 20 YEARS NOW.

Steve says TWENTY YEARS IN
TORONTO AND A WHOLE BUNCH OF
OTHER PLACES AROUND THE PROVINCE
AS WELL.
YOU MIGHT HAVE A VERY
INTERESTING PERSPECTIVE ON WHY
THERE'S SO MUCH DISLIKE OF
TORONTO ELSEWHERE.
WHAT HAVE YOU COME UP WITH?

Trish says YOU KNOW WHAT?
I ACTUALLY... IT COMES IN
PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE FORMS.
THEY'LL NEVER LET US LIVE DOWN
THE FACT THAT TORONTO ONCE
CALLED IN THE ARMY BECAUSE IT
SLOWED A LOT.
I'VE NEVER COME ACROSS THAT KIND
OF OVERAGGRESSION IN DIFFERENT
PARTS... AND FROM MY WORK, I
HAVE TO GO... I'VE BEEN TO
ALMOST EVERY MAJOR CENTRE IN
ONTARIO.
SO, YOU KNOW, I'VE HEARD IT ALL.
I DON'T KNOW.
I DON'T THINK IT'S AS DEEPLY
ROOTED AS IT'S TRUMPED UP TO BE,
HONEST.
BUT I DO THINK THAT SOME
COMMUNITIES FEEL LIKE TORONTO
GETS MORE ATTENTION IN TERMS OF,
TORONTO HAS TO WORK
ECONOMICALLY, RIGHT?
AND TORONTO JUST NEEDS MORE
RESOURCES.
AND SO I THINK THAT IF YOU'RE
SITTING IN A CORNER OF ONTARIO
WHERE THE PROVINCE HAS SORT OF
LET YOUR COMMUNITY DIE OR IT'S
ON LIFE SUPPORT AND NOBODY'S
REALLY COMING IN TO HELP YOU AND
YOU SEE A BIG DISCUSSION ABOUT
HOW MUCH MONEY TORONTO NEEDS TO
SAVE ITS OVERCROWDED SUBWAY
SYSTEM, YOU KNOW, THAT MIGHT RUB
YOU THE WRONG WAY.

Steve says ANY IDEAS ABOUT WHY
TORONTO IS THE OUTLIER IN THESE NUMBERS?

Ashley says THE ONTARIO CHAMBER OF
COMMERCE REPRESENTS ALL AREAS OF
ONTARIO EQUALLY, STEVE.

Steve says HALF OF YOUR MEMBERS
ARE PROBABLY FROM HERE, RIGHT?

The caption changes to "Ashley Challinor, @ae_challinor."

Ashley says WELL, TORONTO... MOST OF OUR
MEMBERS ARE DISTRIBUTED
THROUGHOUT THE PROVINCE, YOU
KNOW, FAIRLY WELL.
BUT TORONTO DOES TAKE UP A LOT
OF AIR IN THE ROOM BECAUSE OUR
OUTSIZED POPULATION, OUR
OUTSIZED ECONOMIC CONTRIBUTION,
AND BECAUSE IT HAS UNIQUE
NEEDS... TRISH IS EXACTLY RIGHT.
TORONTO HAS SOME REAL INVESTMENT
PROBLEMS.
BUT WHEN YOU LIVE OUTSIDE OF
TORONTO AND YOUR HIGHWAY HAS
ONLY, YOU KNOW, ONE LANE IN EACH
DIRECTION AND IT'S FULL OF
POTHOLES AND YOU HAVE TO GO TO
THE LOCAL McDONALD'S TO GET
WI-FI TO DO YOUR KID'S HOMEWORK,
YOU'RE NOT SYMPATHETIC ABOUT
BUSES AND SUBWAYS IN TORONTO AND
THAT'S ENTIRELY LEGITIMATE.
AGAIN, THIS GOES BACK TO
GOVERNMENTS NEED TO INVEST AND
TO REFLECT THE UNIQUE NEEDS OF
EACH OF ONTARIO'S REGIONS RATHER
THAN TRY TO TAKE KIND OF A ONE
SIZE FITS ALL APPROACH TO
REGIONAL ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT.

Steve says ANDREW, I KNOW
YOU'RE NOT A PARTISAN POLITICAL
GUY BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU A
QUASI POLITICAL QUESTION HERE.
ONE TORY, ONE LIBERAL, HAVE BOTH
REPRESENTED RIDINGS IN TORONTO
AND THEY DON'T WANT TO
NECESSARILY BE SEEN TO BE
TORONTO POLITICIANS, RIGHT?
THEY WANT TO REPRESENT THE
ENTIRE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO.
DOES THAT HAMSTRING THEM IN
DOING SO?

Andrew says IT DOESN'T HAVE TO.
DOES IT HAMSTRING THEM TO BE
FROM A TORONTO RIDING?
NO.
I THINK THAT PLAYS OUT ON THE
INDIVIDUAL BASIS HOW GOOD A
COMMUNICATOR THEY ARE, HOW
THEY'VE BUILT RELATIONSHIPS
WITH, WHO THEY'VE BUILT BRIDGES
WITH.
AND WE WOULD NEVER ASK THIS IN A
SURVEY, BUT IF YOU ASKED THEM TO
NAME THE RIDING THAT PEOPLE
REPRESENT, IT'S NOT CLEAR THAT
MOST ONTARIANS WOULD ACTUALLY
KNOW THAT.
SO IT REALLY COMES DOWN TO HOW
POLITICIANS HANDLE THEMSELVES
AND HOW THEY PRESENT THEMSELVES.
BUT I THINK WHAT YOU'RE GETTING
TO, THOUGH, AND WHAT WE'VE ALL
BEEN TALKING ABOUT IS PART OF
THE FUNDAMENTAL CHALLENGE OF
GOVERNING THE PROVINCE.
THE POPULATION AND THE ECONOMIC
ENGINE OF THE PROVINCE IS
CONCENTRATED IN THE GREATER
TORONTO AREA, AND THAT HAS TO
BE, YOU KNOW, ANY GOVERNMENTS OF
ANY POLITICAL STRIPE, NO MATTER
WHAT CONSTITUENCY THE PREMIER
REPRESENTS, A NO. 1 PRIORITY.
AND YET THE HUGE GEOGRAPHY AND
EXPANSE OF THE PROVINCE AND
COMMUNITIES THAT ARE IN
COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ECONOMIC
CIRCUMSTANCES, INDUSTRIES THAT
MAY NOT HAVE AS BRIGHT A FUTURE
AS, YOU KNOW, THE FINANCE
INDUSTRY IN TORONTO AND SO ON.
AND YOU HAVE TO RESPOND TO THAT
TOO DESPITE THE NUMBERS.
YOU HAVE TO BUILD A HOSPITAL
SYSTEM THAT CAN RESPOND TO THE
POPULATION AND THE RESEARCH AND
SCIENTIFIC ACTIVITY GOING ON IN
TORONTO, AND YET YOU HAVE TO
PROVIDE HEALTH CARE TO THOUSANDS
OF COMMUNITIES ACROSS... ANY
GOVERNMENT HAS TO BALANCE THAT,
WHETHER THE CONSTITUENCY YOU'RE
FROM, ANY SOPHISTICATED
POLITICIAN SHOULD BE ABLE TO GO
BEYOND THAT.

Steve says I WILL NEVER FORGET
POLITICIANS IN NORTHERN ONTARIO
TELLING ME THAT THERE ARE
RIDINGS IN THIS PROVINCE THAT
ARE THE SIZE OF FRANCE AND GERMANY.

Andrew says ABSOLUTELY.

Steve says I DON'T KNOW HOW
SINGLE PEOPLE REPRESENT RIDINGS
THAT BIG, BUT WE HAVE THEM.
ANYWAY, THAT'S THE CHALLENGE.
LET'S SPEND SOME TIME ON THIS
NEXT ONE.
SHELDON, NEXT GRAPHIC, PLEASE.
TOP OF PAGE 5.
THIS IS OBVIOUSLY ONE OF THE KEY
QUESTIONS FACING THE PROVINCE
AND THE COUNTRY TODAY: HAVE
GOVERNMENTS GONE FAR ENOUGH IN
PROMOTING RECONCILIATION WITH
INDIGENOUS PEOPLE?

A bar chart shows how far people in the different regions think the government has gone in promoting reconciliation with Indigenous people.

Steve says AND LET ME JUST GO TWO-THIRDS OF
THE WAY DOWN THE CHART TO START
WITH AND JUST GIVE YOU A SENSE
OF WHAT PEOPLE ACROSS THE
PROVINCE OF ONTARIO THINK OF THAT.
HAVE GOVERNMENTS GONE FAR ENOUGH
IN PROMOTING RECONCILIATION WITH
INDIGENOUS PEOPLE?
AND THE 23 PERCENT SUGGEST THAT
THEY HAVE GONE TOO FAR?
44 PERCENT NOT FAR ENOUGH.
26 PERCENT, NEITHER OR ABOUT
RIGHT.
AND THEN YOU'VE GOT 8 PERCENT
WHO DON'T KNOW.
THAT'S FASCINATING.
OF COURSE, IT BREAKS DOWN INTO
DIFFERENT... WITH THE DIFFERENT
REGIONS.
IN THE NORTH, 32 PERCENT, THAT'S
THE HIGHEST NUMBER, THINK THAT
EFFORTS HAVE GONE TOO FAR.
AND IN TORONTO-416, THAT'S AT
THE OPPOSITE END OF THE SCALE,
15 PERCENT SAYING THINGS HAVE
GONE TOO FAR.
A VERY SMALL NUMBER.
THAT'S FASCINATING CONSIDERING
THAT SO MUCH... SO MUCH OF WHAT
WE READ, SEE, AND HEAR IN MEDIA
SUGGESTS THAT WE HAVEN'T GONE
NEARLY FAR ENOUGH, AND YET A
QUARTER OF THE PEOPLE OUT THERE
PROVINCE-WIDE THINK WE'VE GONE
WAY TOO FAR.
WHAT DO YOU INFER FROM THAT?

The caption changes to "Reconciliation."

Andrew says ON ONE HAND
I THINK THERE'S WORK TO DO.
ON THE OTHER HAND, THERE'S
ALWAYS GOING TO BE A RANGE OF
OPINION, AND THERE ARE GOING TO
BE SOME PEOPLE WHO FEEL THEY
HAVE THEIR OWN CONCERNS THAT
THEY WOULD LIKE TO SEE ADDRESSED
AND MAY SEE THIS IN A LITTLE BIT
OF A ZERO SUM... IF WE'RE PAYING
ATTENTION TO SOMEONE ELSE'S
ISSUE, WHY AREN'T WE PAYING
ATTENTION TO MINE?
IT'S A NATURAL, YOU KNOW,
SENTIMENT THAT SOME PEOPLE MIGHT
HAVE, AND I WOULDN'T WANT TO
READ TOO MUCH INTO IT.
BUT IN TERMS OF THE POINT I MADE
ABOUT THERE'S MORE WORK TO DO.
WE HAD A SEPARATE REPORT ON SOME
OF THESE QUESTIONS, AND THERE IS
A RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN HOW
PEOPLE ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS
AND HOW FAMILIAR THEY ARE...
FEEL THEY ARE WITH THE HISTORY
OF THE ISSUE, PARTICULARLY THE
ISSUE OF RESIDENTIAL SCHOOLS.
SO THE MORE THAT ONTARIANS SAY
THEY FEEL THAT THEY KNOW A BIT
ABOUT THE HISTORY OF RESIDENTIAL
SCHOOLS, THE MORE SUPPORTIVE
THEY ARE OF MOVING FURTHER ON
RECONCILIATION.
SO, YOU KNOW, MAYBE DESPITE THE
EFFORTS THAT YOU'VE OUTLINED,
IT'S NOT TIME TO STOP TALKING
ABOUT THIS AND WE'RE LOOKING
FORWARD TO MORE "AGENDA."
PROGRAMS ON THE ISSUE, AND I'M
SERIOUS ABOUT THAT.

Steve says WE WILL BE THERE.

Andrew says IT JUST SHOWS THAT THE
CONVERSATION IS ONLY BEGINNING.

Steve says OKAY.
THIS IS A TRICKY QUESTION TO ASK
BUT I'M GOING TO ASK IT ANYWAY,
SO HERE GOES.
I THINK IT IS TRUE TO SAY THAT
MOST INDIGENOUS PEOPLE IN THIS
PROVINCE LIVE IN BIG URBAN
AREAS.
I THINK IT IS PROBABLY ALSO TRUE
TO SAY THAT PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN
NORTHERN ONTARIO WOULD HAVE MORE
INDIVIDUAL FACE-TO-FACE CONTACT
WITH INDIGENOUS PEOPLE THAN
PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY LIVE IN THE
CAPITAL CITY, IN WHICH CASE,
WHAT DO WE INFER FROM THE FACT
THAT PEOPLE IN THE NORTH ARE AT
THE TOP OF THE LIST AMONG THOSE
WHO SAY, WE'VE ALREADY DONE
ENOUGH FOR RECONCILIATION, THANK
YOU VERY MUCH?

Andrew says I WOULD PHRASE IT DIFFERENTLY.
IT CAN'T BE A COINCIDENCE.
I THINK I WOULD WANT TO POINT
OUT THAT THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN
THE NORTH... WELL, YOU'RE RIGHT.
IT'S FURTHER ON THE END.
HAMILTON-NIAGARA, FOR INSTANCE,
ACTUALLY ARE NOT...

Steve says THEY'RE THREE POINTS APART.

Andrew says WHICH IS NOT IMPORTANT.

Steve says STATISTICALLY INSIGNIFICANT.

Andrew says EXACTLY.
SO IT DOESN'T TAKE AWAY THE
POINT YOU'VE JUST MADE.
BUT THIS IS A CASE WHERE I THINK
IT'S IMPORTANT NOT TO EXAGGERATE
THE EXTENT OF THE DIFFERENCES.
AND THEN, YOU KNOW, TO GO
FURTHER, I WOULD SAY THAT WE'RE
BACK TO THAT QUESTION ABOUT HOW
SECURE PEOPLE ARE FEELING ABOUT
THEIR LOCAL ECONOMY AND SO ON.
ATTITUDES ABOUT, LET'S SAY,
SHARING AS A GENERAL RULE, ARE
AFFECTED BY HOW MUCH YOU FEEL
YOU HAVE TO SHARE.
SO SOME OF THESE QUESTIONS
COMPOUND EACH OTHER, EVEN THOUGH
WE'VE LEFT THE ECONOMIC
QUESTIONS TEN MINUTES AGO IN THE
CONVERSATION, THERE'S A CHANCE
THAT THEY SEEP BACK...

Steve says FOR SURE.

Andrew says INTO THESE OTHER ISSUES.

Steve says WE ARE LITERALLY
DOWN TO OUR LAST MINUTE.
LET ME GIVE YOU 30 SECONDS AND
YOU 30 SECONDS TO COMMENT ON THE
RECONCILIATION CHART.
TRISH?

Trish says THE PEOPLE
ON THE 44 PERCENT OR MORE SAY WE
NEED TO DO MORE.
THEY'RE ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF
HISTORY.
I THINK A LOT MORE PUBLIC
EDUCATION HAS TO BE DONE HERE.
ON EVERY INDICATOR, INDIGENOUS
PEOPLES ARE NOT DOING...
BENEFITING FROM ECONOMIC GROWTH
IN THE SAME WAY THAT
NON-INDIGENOUS PEOPLES ARE.
SO WE HAVE A LOT OF WORK TO DO
THERE.
I PREDICT BOLDLY IN THREE TO
FIVE YEARS FROM NOW THAT THOSE
NUMBERS ARE CHANGE ON THE UPTICK.
THE CONVERSATION REALLY HAS JUST BEGUN.

Steve says ASHLEY?

Ashley says THESE NUMBERS ARE VERY DISAPPOINTING.
YOU KNOW, WE STRONGLY BELIEVE
THAT THE ECONOMIC EMPOWERMENT
AND ADVANCEMENT OF INDIGENOUS
PEOPLES BENEFITS ALL ONTARIANS.
THERE'S TREMENDOUS OPPORTUNITY
TO BRING THEM MORE FULLY INTO
THE ECONOMY AND INTO THE LABOUR
MARKET.
THERE'S TREMENDOUS UNTAPPED
SKILLS AMONGST INDIGENOUS
COMMUNITIES IN ONTARIO.
YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A NUMBER OF
MEMBERS WHO HAVE BEEN LEADERS,
PROGRESSIVE LEADERS, ON THIS
ISSUE.
BRUCE POWER IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF
ONE OF THEM.
SO, YOU KNOW, WE WANT TO SEE
MORE COMPANIES AND, FRANKLY, THE
GOVERNMENT AS WELL, TAKE ON
RECONCILIATION AND ECONOMIC
EMPOWERMENT OF INDIGENOUS PEOPLE
AS A CRITICAL ECONOMIC ISSUE AND
NOT THE WAY IT'S BEEN TREATED IN
THE PAST.

The caption changes to "Producer: Meredith Martin, @MeredithMartin."

Steve says THAT'S ASHLEY
CHALLINOR, VICE PRESIDENT OF
POLICY, ONTARIO CHAMBER OF
COMMERCE.
WE THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.
TRISH HENNESSY FROM THE UPSTREAM
INSTITUTE, THINK TANK, LOOKS AT
WAYS TO ENSURE A HEALTHIER
POPULATION AND COMMUNITY
WELL-BEING.
AND THANKS TO ANDREW PARKIN AS
WELL, IT'S HIS STUDY AT THE
MOWAT CENTRE WHICH I PRESUME IS
ON YOUR WEBSITE IF ANYBODY WANTS
TO HAVE A LOOK AT IT.

Andrew says ABSOLUTELY.

Steve says GOOD OF ALL OF YOU TO
COME IN TO TVO TONIGHT.
THANKS SO MUCH FOR THIS.

Ashley says A PLEASURE.

Watch: An Ontario State of Mind