Transcript: A Girls' Guide to Coping with Anxiety | Jul 29, 2019

Nam sits in the studio. She's in her early forties, with shoulder length curly brown hair. She's wearing glasses and a black blazer over a purple shirt.

A caption on screen reads "A girl's guide to coping with anxiety. Nam Kiwanuka, @namshine, @theagenda."

Nam says THANKS TO DIGITAL
TECHNOLOGY,
WE LIVE IN A TIME WHERE WE HAVE
ACCESS TO WHAT'S HAPPENING
AROUND THE WORLD 24-7
ON OUR MOBILE DEVICES.
BUT WHAT'S IT LIKE IF
YOU'RE A YOUNG PERSON?
A GIRL TO GROW UP IN A
WORLD THAT'S NOT ALWAYS REAL.
LISA DAMOUR IS A CLINICAL
PSYCHOLOGIST AND EXECUTIVE
DIRECTOR OF THE RESEARCH ON
GIRLS CENTER AT
THE LAUREL SCHOOL
IN SHAKER HEIGHTS, OHIO.

Lisa is in her late thirties, with short blond hair and side-swept bangs. She's wearing a dark blue blazer.

Nam continues HER NEW BOOK IS
UNDER PRESSURE:
CONFRONTING THE EPIDEMIC
OF STRESS AND ANXIETY IN GIRLS...

A picture of the book appears briefly on screen. The cover features a picture of a girl with wavy brown hair staring directly at the viewer.

Nam continues AND SHE JOINS US
NOW ON HOW TO HELP
THEM COPE AND EVEN THRIVE
THROUGH THE TOUGH TIMES.
IT'S VERY NICE TO
MEET YOU, DR. DAMOUR.

Lisa says THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

Nam says I REALLY LIKE THIS BOOK.
I REALLY ENJOYED IT.
I HAVE AN
8-YEAR-OLD AND A 6-YEAR-OLD.
ONE'S A GIRL AND ONE'S A BOY BUT
I THINK SOME OF THE THINGS THAT
YOU WRITE ABOUT
CAN ADDRESS BOTH.

Lisa says YEAH.

Nam says WHAT ARE THE UNIQUE PRESSURES
GIRLS EXPERIENCE THAT CREATE
THIS EPIDEMIC OF STRESS
THAT YOU WRITE ABOUT?

The caption changes to "Lisa Damour. Author, 'Under pressure.'"
Then, it changes again to "Feeling anxious."

Lisa says SO WE ARE SEEING A RISE OF
STRESS AND ANXIETY IN KIDS
ACROSS THE BOARD.
BUT THERE ARE SOME EXTRA
WEIGHTS THAT GIRLS CARRY.
SO GIRLS ARE EXCELLENT STUDENTS,
THEY TAKE SCHOOL VERY SERIOUSLY,
AND WE HAVE A LOT OF DATA
SHOWING THAT THEY FEEL MORE
STRESSED BY SCHOOL.
EVEN WHEN DOING BETTER THAN
BOYS, THEY STILL FEEL STRESSED
BY SCHOOL.
WE ALSO SEE THAT GIRLS, MORE
THAN BOYS, WORRY ABOUT THEIR
APPEARANCE AND THIS IS SOMETHING
OUR CULTURE SIGNALS
TO THEM IS...

NAM SAYS SOCIAL MEDIA.

Lisa says YEAH, VERY POWERFUL FORCE AND
SO GIRLS ARE SPENDING MORE TIME
THAN BOYS PREOCCUPIED WITH THEIR
APPEARANCE, MEASURING THEMSELVES
AGAINST WHAT THEY SEE ONLINE
AND THAT THAT CREATES A WHOLE
NOTHER LAYER OF
STRESS FOR THEM.
WE ALSO SEE THAT GIRLS SHARE
WITH US THAT THEY FEEL MORE
STRESSED ABOUT HOW
THINGS ARE GOING SOCIALLY.
THAT THEY TALK ABOUT WHEN
THEY'RE IN SOCIAL, YOU KNOW,
KIND OF DISCORD WITH THEIR
FRIENDS, THEY EXPRESS FEELING
MORE BOTHERED BY THAT.
IT STAYS WITH THEM
LONGER, THEY SHARE MORE.
SOMETIMES WHAT WE CALL RUMINATE,
THEY GO AROUND AND AROUND AND
AROUND AND TALK ABOUT IT A LOT.

NAM SAYS SO IT STAYS IN THEIR MIND.

Lisa says KIND OF STAYS IN THEIR MINDS.
SORT OF, YOU KNOW, GRINDING ON
IT IN A WAY THAT'S NOT HELPFUL.
BOYS, BY CONTRAST, ARE BETTER
AT DISTRACTING THEMSELVES OR
LETTING THINGS GO WHEN
THEY'RE NOT GOING WELL SOCIALLY.
SOMETIMES IT MEANS THAT BOYS
DON'T GET THE SOCIAL SUPPORT
THEY NEED BUT IT ALSO MEANS
THAT THEY DON'T NECESSARILY,
YOU KNOW, JUST REALLY KIND OF
WEIGH THE SAME THING OVER
AND OVER AGAIN WITHOUT
FEELING BETTER ABOUT IT.

Nam says WHEN WE THINK ABOUT ANXIETY,
WE OFTEN THINK ABOUT IT AS A
NEGATIVE THING.
BUT YOU ACTUALLY WRITE THAT
WE SHOULD REGARD ANXIETY AS AN
ALLY, NOT AN ENEMY.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?

The caption changes to "Lisa Damour. The Laurel School."

Lisa says SO ONE OF THE REAL FORCES THAT
HAD ME WRITE THIS BOOK WAS THAT
THE WAY WE UNDERSTAND
PSYCHOLOGY... YOU KNOW,
PSYCHOLOGISTS UNDERSTAND STRESS
AND ANXIETY IS VERY DIFFERENT
FROM HOW THE CULTURE'S
BEEN TALKING ABOUT IT.
SO THE CULTURE GENERALLY TALKS
ABOUT STRESS AND ANXIETY AS
THOUGH THEY ARE ALWAYS
HARMFUL, ALWAYS BAD.
BUT THAT'S ACTUALLY
NOT HOW WE SEE IT.
SO FOR ANXIETY, IN PARTICULAR,
WHAT WE'VE LONG UNDERSTOOD AS
PSYCHOLOGISTS IS THAT ANXIETY
IS A NORMAL SIGNALLING SYSTEM.
IT'S A SYSTEM THAT ALERTS US
WHEN THERE'S A THREAT
AND IT'S BUILT INTO HUMANS
TO KEEP US SAFE.
SO ONE WAY TO KIND OF PICTURE
IT IS TO THINK ABOUT SAY,
A CAVEMAN, YOU KNOW,
OUT ON THE PLAINS WHO SEES
A SABRE-TOOTHED TIGER.
THAT CAVEMAN WHO GETS THE
ANXIETY RESPONSE,
WHO'S, YOU KNOW, HEART STARTS
TO GALLOP IN THEIR CHEST
AND THEIR BREATHING
CHANGES AND THEY FEEL ALL
UNCOMFORTABLE UP THEIR BACK
AND WHO HAS THAT RESPONSE
AND FEELS TERRIBLY
UNCOMFORTABLE AND THINKS,
"I HAVE TO DO SOMETHING... I HAVE
TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS."
AND WHO RUNS THEN, FOR THE CAVE.
THAT CAVEMAN LIKELY
SURVIVED TO PASS GENES DOWN
TO US.
BUT IF WE PICTURE A CAVEMAN
WHO SEES A SABRE-TOOTHED TIGER
AND IS LIKE, "THAT'S A
PRETTY COOL TIGER."

NAM laughs and says "OH, HI, TIGER."

Lisa says "HI, TIGER."
THEY PROBABLY DID NOT SURVIVE
TO PASS GENES DOWN TO US.
SO FOR PSYCHOLOGISTS, ANXIETY
IS SEEN AS A NORMAL AND HEALTHY
FUNCTION AND IT CAN GET OUT OF
CONTROL AND IT CAN BE TOO MUCH.
BUT MOST OF THE TIME, IT'S
THERE TO KEEP US PROTECTED.

Nam says RIGHT.

Lisa says WHEN I TALK WITH TEENAGERS, AS I
SPEND A LOT OF MY TIME DOING,
I WILL SAY TO THEM, "LOOK,
IF YOU SHOW UP AT A PARTY
AND YOU FEEL REALLY ANXIOUS,
PAY ATTENTION TO THAT FEELING.
DON'T..."

NAM SAYS SO IT'S NOT NECESSARILY
A BAD THING WHEN YOU FEEL IT.

Lisa says NO, WHEN YOU FEEL IT, USUALLY,
IT'S CUING YOU THAT THERE'S SOME
THREAT IN THE ENVIRONMENT.
AND I'LL SAY TO THEM, YOU KNOW,
"DON'T START DRINKING TO MAKE
YOUR ANXIETY GO AWAY."
AND I DO THINK THAT A LOT OF
THE VERY HEAVY DRINKING
WE SOMETIMES SEE
IN HIGH SCHOOL AND COLLEGE
IS THAT KIDS ARE IN SITUATIONS
THAT THEY KNOW ARE NOT REALLY
ALTOGETHER SAFE AND
THEY'RE HAVING A HELPFUL ANXIETY
RESPONSE AND THEN BECAUSE WE'VE
SORT OF GIVEN ANXIETY THIS BAD
NAME, THEY FEEL LIKE,
"THIS IS BAD,
I GOTTA DO
SOMETHING ABOUT IT."
AND DRINKING DOES MAKE
YOUR ANXIETY GO DOWN.

NAM SAYS BUT THAT CAN
LEAD TO OTHER...

Lisa says THEN YOU HAVE A
WHOLE SET OF OTHER PROBLEMS
THAT COME WITH THAT.

Nam says RIGHT.
SO WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE THEN,
BETWEEN STRESS AND ANXIETY?

Lisa says SO, IN MANY WAYS,
THEY'RE FRATERNAL TWINS.
YOU KNOW, THEY
HAVE A LOT IN COMMON.
WHEN WE LOOK IN VERY TECHNICAL
TERMS AT HOW WE THINK ABOUT IT,
STRESS IS WHEN THERE'S A
VERY HEAVY DEMAND ON YOU.
WHEN WHAT IS BEING ASKED OF YOU
BY CIRCUMSTANCES IS AT THE EDGE
OF YOUR CAPACITIES.
WHEN YOU FEEL STRETCHED.
WHEN A LOT... YOU KNOW, YOU'RE
SORT OF WORKING AT YOUR EDGE.
FOR ANXIETY, WE TALK ABOUT IT IN
TERMS OF FEAR OR DREAD, RIGHT?
BUT IN PRACTICAL TERMS, THEY GET
ALL WOUND UP WITH EACH OTHER, RIGHT?
SO I MAY HAVE A HUGE AMOUNT
OF WORK TO DO, WHICH IS VERY
STRESSFUL AND THEN I'M GOING TO
BECOME ANXIOUS ABOUT WHETHER OR
NOT I CAN GET IT DONE YOU KNOW,
SO OFTEN, IN MY WRITING AND IN
MY SPEAKING, I ALMOST USE THEM
INTERCHANGEABLY BECAUSE THAT'S
OFTEN HOW PEOPLE
EXPERIENCE THEM.

Nam says IN UNDER PRESSURE,
YOU POINT OUT THAT...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "It's a socialization thing." The quote reads "Studies find that girls are more empathetic than boys, a difference that is explained by how we socialize our daughters and sons, not by some innate biological factor. Girls, more than boys, are raised on a steady diet of encouragement to 'think about how the other person would feel,' which means that if your daughter's friend finds herself on the sharp end of a social stick, your daughter will feel some pain, too."
Quoted from Lisa Damour, "Under pressure." 2019.

Nam says WOULD YOU SUGGEST
THAT PARENTS SCALE BACK ON THE,
"THINK HOW THE
OTHER PERSON WOULD FEEL,"
MESSAGING FOR THEIR DAUGHTERS?

The caption changes to "Lisa Damour, @LDamour."

Lisa says NO, I ACTUALLY... I'M ALL FOR EMPATHY.
I THINK WE SHOULD SCALE UP ON
THAT MESSAGING FOR OUR SONS, RIGHT?
BECAUSE WE DO SEE THIS
DIFFERENCE BY MIDDLE CHILDHOOD,
THAT BOYS, IN MEASUREMENTS
THAT WE CAN COUNT ON,
SEEM LESS EMPATHIC BUT IT'S NOT
BECAUSE BOYS ARE LESS EMPATHIC.
IT'S BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT
COACHED THEM IN THE SAME WAYS.
I DO THINK THOUGH, WE HAVE TO BE
CAREFUL OF WHAT WE CALL,
IN THAT PASSAGE I'M DESCRIBING,
VICARIOUS STRESS,
AND THIS IS SOMETHING GIRLS ARE
UNIQUELY GOOD AT.
SO IF YOU'RE MY FRIEND AND
YOU'RE UPSET AND YOU TELL ME
ABOUT IT, NOW I'M UPSET
BECAUSE YOU'RE UPSET, RIGHT?
SO THAT ADDS TO THE
STRESS GIRLS FEEL.
AND BOYS ARE BETTER THAN
GIRLS AT NOT DOING THAT, RIGHT?
THEY MAY SAY LIKE,
"BUDDY, I'M SORRY THAT
YOU'RE IN PAIN BUT, YEAH."

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Nam says BUT WOULD YOU ALSO SAY THAT
SOMETIMES GIRLS WILL THINK,
"IF I DO SOMETHING AND IT HURTS
SOMEBODY ELSE'S FEELINGS,
I DON'T WANT TO DO THAT.
I WANT TO PLEASE THAT PERSON."

Lisa says WELL, IT CAN ENCOURAGE GIRLS
TO BE MORE CAUTIOUS IN THEIR
BEHAVIOUR, ESPECIALLY WHEN
THEY'RE ABOUT TO DO SOMETHING
THAT MIGHT NOT BE KIND.
WHAT WE WANT TO DO AS PARENTS
IS INTERVENE A LITTLE BIT IF WE
HAVE A DAUGHTER WHO'S WORRYING
TERRIBLY ABOUT A FRIEND'S PAIN.
YOU KNOW, THAT'S A PLACE WHERE
WE CAN STEP IN AND SAY,
"YOU KNOW, YOU RUMINATING ABOUT
HOW UPSET YOUR FRIEND IS,
ISN'T GOING TO MAKE
IT BETTER FOR HER.
WHAT COULD YOU DO
TO MAKE IT BETTER?"
YOU KNOW, SORT OF MOVE THEM FROM
ACTION TO... YOU KNOW,
TO ACTION FROM JUST GOING OVER
IT AGAIN AND AGAIN.

Nam says IN THE BOOK TOO, YOU HAVE A
STUDY WHERE YOU WRITE ABOUT
A YOUNG GIRL WHO WANTED TO QUIT.
I THINK SHE WAS A GYMNAST.
SHE WANTED TO QUIT
WHAT SPORT SHE WAS DOING.

Lisa says YES.

NAM SAYS BUT HER COACH WAS LIKE,
"I REALLY DON'T WANT YOU
TO LEAVE, I REALLY WANT
YOU ON THE TEAM."
BUT THE GIRL WAS REALLY STRESSED
AND THEN SHE STAYED ON THE TEAM.

Lisa says UH HMM.

Nam says SO HOW DO YOU TEACH GIRLS TO
SAY, "THERE'S A LIMIT AND I CAN
ONLY DO SO MUCH," WHEN THEY'RE
TRYING NOT TO PLEASE
OTHER PEOPLE.

Lisa says YEAH, SO GIRLS REALLY ARE
TRAINED BY OUR CULTURE
TO BE AGREEABLE.
YOU KNOW, WE REALLY EXPECT
THAT IF WE ASKED A GIRL
TO DO SOMETHING,
SHE'S GOING TO SAY YES.
AND IN THAT STORY WHICH I
SHARED, THE GIRL I WAS CARING
FOR REALLY WANTED TO QUIT
GYMNASTICS AND WHEN SHE TOOK IT
TO HER COACH, HER COACH
WAS LIKE, "OH, I'LL BE SO
DISAPPOINTED," AND SO THE
GIRL WENT BACK ON HER OWN PLAN
BECAUSE SHE DIDN'T WANT
TO LET DOWN THIS GROWN-UP.
SO THERE ARE A COUPLE OF THINGS
WE NEED TO DO TO HELP GIRLS OUT.
ONE IS, WE CAN'T ABUSE THE FACT
THAT THEY WANT TO PLEASE US, RIGHT?
AND THIS IS SOMETHING FOR
TEACHERS TO BE CAREFUL OF
AND PARENTS TO BE CAREFUL OF.
THAT WE SAY WE WANT GIRLS TO
BE AUTONOMOUS AND EMPOWERED,
USUALLY UP UNTIL THE POINT THAT
THEY'RE NOT DOING
WHAT WE WANT THEM TO DO.
SO WE HAVE TO OWN THAT.
THE OTHER THING THAT I TALK
ABOUT A LOT IN THIS BOOK
IS HELPING GIRLS HAVE
WAYS TO TURN PEOPLE DOWN
THAT STILL PRESERVES
THE RELATIONSHIP.
BECAUSE GIRLS CARE ABOUT
RELATIONSHIPS AND BOYS CARE
ABOUT RELATIONSHIPS.
BUT IF WE JUST SAY TO GIRLS,
"JUST SAY NO.
JUST SAY YOU'RE NOT GOING TO
DO IT."
THAT DOESN'T LEAVE
THEM WITH ENOUGH TO GO ON.
BECAUSE
THEY KNOW FOR A WHILE,
"IF I JUST SAY TO MY COACH,
NO, I'M NOT DOING IT,'
I'M ACTUALLY REALLY DAMAGING
OUR CONNECTION."
SO I TALK IN THIS BOOK ABOUT
SEVERAL STRATEGIES WE CAN GIVE
GIRLS WHERE THEY CAN HONOUR
THEIR OWN WISHES AND YET KEEP ON
GOOD TERMS AND SO IN THAT
PARTICULAR STORY, I TALKED ABOUT
WHAT I CALL THE YES-NO-YES
FORMULA AND I ACTUALLY PICKED
THIS UP FROM A BOOK
BY WILLIAM URY CALLED
THE POWER OF A POSITIVE NO.
IT'S A BUSINESS BOOK BUT IT HAS
ACTUALLY BEEN GAME-CHANGING FOR
ME AND IN THAT BOOK, HE TALKS
ABOUT A FORMULA WHERE FIRST,
YOU FIGURE OUT WHAT
YOU'RE SAYING YES TO.
SO FOR THIS PARTICULAR CLIENT,
SHE WAS WANTING TO SAY YES
TO GETTING MORE SLEEP,
GETTING MORE REST,
TAKING A BREAK FROM GYMNASTICS.
SO SHE HAD TO SAY
NO TO HER COACH.
AND THEN THE FINAL YES IS
WHAT YOU CAN SAY YES TO.
SO THE WAY WE FINALLY RESOLVED
IT FOR HER IS SHE SAID TO HER
COACH, YOU KNOW, "I'M
REALLY TIRED, I NEED MORE SLEEP.
I'M GOING TO STOP GYMNASTICS,
BUT CAN I KEEP COMING
TO MEETS AND CHEERING FOR THE
YOUNGER GIRLS?"
AND THAT FORMULA ALLOWED THE
GIRL TO BOTH STOP GYMNASTICS
AND PRESERVE THE
WORKING RELATIONSHIP.

NAM SAYS AND IN A WAY THAT
MADE HER COMFORTABLE.

Lisa says YEAH.

Nam says YOU ALSO TALK
ABOUT GLITTER JARS.

[DR. DAMOUR LAUGHING].

Nam says WE'RE GOING TO SHOW A CLIP OF IT
AND HOW GLITTER JARS CAN BE USED
TO REDUCE ANXIETY.
HOW DID YOU FIRST RUN ACROSS
THIS IDEA AND HOW DO THEY WORK?

A short clip shows a hand holding a jar filled with moving purple glitter. Then, instructions read "Here's how you make it. First, fill a jar with hot water. Then, squeeze in some glue. Drop in the glitter... and shake!"

Lisa says OKAY, SO GLITTER
JARS ARE RELEVANT TO THE ISSUE
OF... THESE ARE GREAT... THEY'RE
RELEVANT TO THE ISSUE OF HELPING
KIDS THROUGH MELTDOWNS.

In the clip, a girl drops a glitter jar and a caption reads "Whoops."
The caption changes to "Low tech and high tech."

Lisa continues AND IT IS TRUE THAT AT VARIOUS
POINTS IN DEVELOPMENT AND
CERTAINLY DURING MAYBE LIKE 13,
14 FOR GIRLS,
MELTDOWNS CAN BE PRETTY POWERFUL
AND PRETTY INTENSE.
AND I TAKE CARE OF TEENAGE GIRLS
IN MY PRIVATE PRACTICE
AND I ALSO CONSULT TO A GIRLS
SCHOOL SO I HAVE SEEN
A LOT OF MELTDOWNS.
AND I THINK, LIKE MANY ADULTS,
I OFTEN FELT SORT OF STUPEFIED
BY THIS MELTDOWN.
YOU HAVE A GIRL WHO JUST LOSES
IT AND SO THEN YOU TRY TO JUMP
IN AND HELP.
YOU SAY, "WHAT'S GOING ON?
WHAT HAPPENED?"
AND THEN SHE JUST GETS WORSE AND
THEN YOU SAY, "I'M NOT SURE IT'S
NOT THAT BAD," AND
THEN SHE JUST GETS WORSE.
AND SO AFTER SORT OF MUDDLING
THROUGH THIS FOR A WHILE,
I REALLY, QUITE BY ACCIDENT,
CAME ACROSS
THIS TERRIFIC SOLUTION.
AND I WAS IN DALLAS, TEXAS,
SITTING AROUND WITH A BUNCH
OF COUNSELLORS AT THIS FANTASTIC
GIRLS SCHOOL CALLED
URSULINE DALLAS AND WE
WERE TALKING ABOUT GIRLS
HAVING MELTDOWNS AND ONE OF
THE COUNSELLORS SAYS,
"OH, WELL, THAT'S WHEN I GET
OUT A GLITTER JAR."

Nam says YOU WERE KIND OF SKEPTICAL.
YOU WERE LIKE, "THIS IS
POP PSYCHOLOGY, RIGHT?"

[LAUGHTER]

Lisa says WELL, SHE SAID, "I'LL GO GET
YOU ONE," AND THEN SHE LEFT,
I THOUGHT, "OKAY," AND SHE WAS
GOING TO COME BACK, I THOUGHT,
"WHATEVER SHE'S
BRINGING BACK, I HATE IT.
I HATE IT.
I ALREADY HATE IT."
AND AT FIRST, I THOUGHT,
LIKE, "I HATE GLITTER."
LIKE, YOU KNOW, I'M A MOM.
I HATE GLITTER.
I HATE IT WHEN KIDS HAVE IT ON.

NAM SAYS CAUSE IT LIVES
WITH YOU AFTER YOU OPEN IT.

The caption changes to "Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live, YouTube."

Lisa says YOU
JUST HAVE IT FOREVER.
YOU CAN NEVER GET RID OF IT.
AND THEN I HATE POP PSYCHOLOGY
AND I THOUGHT THIS SOUNDS LIKE
IT IS, YOU KNOW, THE
ALL-TIME POP SOLUTION.
SO SHE COMES BACK
AND SHE HAS A JAR.
IT'S ABOUT THIS BIG.
IT'S CLEAR,
IT'S FILLED WITH WATER.
THE LID IS GLUED ON.
AND SHE SITS DOWN.
OH, IT'S GOT TWO TABLESPOONS,
LIKE SPARKLY PURPLE GLITTER
IN THE BOTTOM AND SHE
SITS DOWN AND SHE SAYS,
"SO WHEN A GIRL COMES TO MY
OFFICE LIKE THAT,"
SHE GOES,
"I DO THIS."
YOU KNOW, AND SHE SHAKES IT LIKE
A SNOW GLOBE AND IT DOES,
IT TURNS INTO THIS
PURPLE STORM IN THERE.
AND THEN SHE SETS IT DOWN AND
SHE SAYS,
"AND THEN I SAY TO THE GIRL,
HONEY, THIS IS YOUR
BRAIN RIGHT NOW.'"
AND I'M THINKING, "OKAY."
AND THEN SHE SAYS,
"AND THEN I SAY,
SO FIRST, WE'RE
GOING TO SETTLE YOUR GLITTER.'"
AND I THOUGHT,
"OKAY, THIS IS GENIUS.
THIS IS ABSOLUTELY
GENIUS, RIGHT?"
SO WHAT SHE HAD IS A PERFECT
MODEL OF THE NEUROLOGY OF THE
ADOLESCENT BRAIN.
TEENAGERS' BRAINS ARE
RENOVATING THROUGH THE COURSE
OF ADOLESCENCE, BECOMING MORE
EFFICIENT AND MORE POWERFUL.
BUT THEY RENOVATE IN THE
ORDER IN WHICH THEY INITIALLY
DEVELOPED, WHICH IS BAD NEWS FOR
THE TEENAGER BECAUSE THE FIRST
RENOVATION HAPPENS IN THE MORE
PRIMITIVE REGIONS BACK HERE.
LATER, THE MORE SOPHISTICATED
REGIONS UP HERE GET RENOVATED
AND THE EMOTIONS ARE BACK
HERE AND THE ABILITY TO MAINTAIN
PERSPECTIVE IS UP HERE.
SO THERE IS A JUNCTURE IN
ADOLESCENCE WHERE TEENAGERS,
WHEN THEY'RE UPSET, THE MORE
PRIMITIVE REGIONS CAN OVERRIDE
THE WHOLE SYSTEM AND TAKE IT
DOWN AND THAT'S WHAT A GLITTER
STORM IS.

Nam says I THINK IT'S SO HELPFUL FOR
PARENTS TO UNDERSTAND THAT
INSTEAD OF SAYING, "OH, MY
KID DOESN'T LISTEN TO ME.
WHAT'S WRONG WITH MY KID?"

Lisa says YES.

Nam says BUT IT'S ALSO HELPFUL FOR THE
CHILD BECAUSE THEY REALIZE,
"IT'S NOT REALLY MY FAULT."

Lisa says THE BRAIN IS JUST REGULATING.
THAT'S ALL THAT'S HAPPENED.

Nam says AND ONE THING I'VE FOUND REALLY
INTERESTING ABOUT YOUR BOOK WAS
THAT, YOU KNOW, AS PARENTS, AS
GROWN-UPS, WE ALWAYS WANT
TO FIX THINGS.

Lisa says YES.

Nam says BUT YOU SAY THAT IT'S IMPORTANT
TO VALIDATE WHATEVER FEELING
THE CHILD IS EXPERIENCING AND
THEN TO OFFER THEM SOME
PROBLEM-SOLVING SKILLS.
IF THEY STILL NEED IT, EXACTLY,
AND WHAT I'VE REALLY COME
TO APPRECIATE IS, WE HAVE
TREMENDOUS POWER AS PARENTS
TO DETERMINE WHAT COMES
OF OUR KIDS' ANXIETY.
HOW WE REACT REALLY
DRIVES WHAT HAPPENS NEXT.
SO IF A YOUNG PERSON COMES TO
US AND IS HUGELY UPSET AND WE
BECOME UPSET AND SEEM VERY
ANXIOUS AND WE REACT TO THEM
ALMOST AS THOUGH THEY'RE ON FIRE
AND THEY NEED TO BE PUT OUT,
WE ACTUALLY, I THINK, MAKE
THEM MORE FRIGHTENED
OF THEIR EMOTIONS.
IF WE REACT... AND THIS IS WHAT
THE GLITTER JAR'S SO GOOD AT
REMINDING THE GROWN-UP TO DO... IF
WE REACT AS THOUGH THEY ARE
FUNDAMENTALLY SELF-CORRECTING
AND THE BRAIN WILL RESET AND IF
WE ARE CALM AND WE JUST
HONOUR THAT THEY GOT OVERWHELMED
EMOTIONALLY AND WE WAIT AND
THAT THE BRAIN WILL RESET ALL BY
ITSELF, WE'RE ACTUALLY
SENDING A MESSAGE OF,
"YOU ARE SELF-CORRECTING,
YOU CAN HANDLE THIS,
I CAN HANDLE YOU BEING UPSET,"
AND IT MAKES A HUGE DIFFERENCE
FOR WHAT HAPPENS NEXT.

Nam says AND SOME OF THE HELPFUL WORDS
YOU USE, "STINKS,"
AND WHAT WAS THE OTHER ONE?

Lisa says "HANDLE."

Nam says "HANDLE."

Lisa says SO ONE OF THE THINGS I
HAVE FOUND... SO WHEN TEENAGERS
ESPECIALLY, TELL ME ABOUT
DIFFICULTIES, YOU KNOW, LIKE,
"I HAVE THIS HORRIBLE TEST I'VE
GOT TO TAKE TOMORROW," OR
"THIS TERRIBLE TASK GOT DROPPED
ON ME," I HAVE FOUND THAT JUST
THOSE TWO WORDS... SO FIRST I SAY,
"OH, THAT STINKS, THAT STINKS."
AND THAT ONE LITTLE WORD IS
ME SAYING, "I'M NOT GOING TO
DISAGREE WITH YOU, I'M
TOTALLY GOING TO EMPATHIZE.
I'M GOING TO TAKE
THIS AT FACE VALUE.
I'M NOT GOING TO QUESTION IT.
I'M NOT GOING TO MINIMIZE IT."
AND USUALLY, IT'S VERY POWERFUL
FOR THEM.
AND THEN, ONCE THAT HAS SUNK
IN, I WILL SAY,
"HOW ARE YOU GOING TO HANDLE IT?"
AND THAT COMBINATION OF BOTH
UTTERLY ENDORSING THE EMOTION
AND ALSO ENDORSING THE SENSE
THAT THEY CAN MANAGE THIS,
THEY'VE GOT THE RESOURCES,
I FIND MOVES THINGS
IN THE RIGHT DIRECTIONS.

Nam says I MEAN, FOR TEENAGERS, SOMETHING
ELSE THAT THEY... WE DO TOO,
IT'S OUR PHONES.
WE HAVE OUR PHONES
ON ALL THE TIME.
BUT YOU SAY THAT THEY ARE THE
WORLD'S HANDIEST TRASH CHUTES.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?

Lisa says SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAS
ALWAYS BEEN TRUE OF TEENAGERS
IS THAT IF THEY'RE HAVING AN
UNCOMFORTABLE FEELING,
THEY OFTEN WANT TO DUMP IT
ON A PARENT, RIGHT?
AND I REMEMBER BEING
IN COLLEGE, RIGHT?
LONG BEFORE CELLPHONES AND
HAVING LIKE SOME SATURDAY NIGHT
WHEN I WAS UPSET ABOUT
SOMETHING AND CALLING MY MOM UP.
I WAS IN COLLEGE IN CONNECTICUT,
CALLING MY MOTHER IN COLORADO.
"HUH!" YOU KNOW?
WHATEVER IT WAS.
AND THEN I THINK AS SOON AS I
HAD DUMPED IT, I FELT MUCH, MUCH
BETTER AND PROBABLY WENT OUT AND
HAD A GOOD TIME AND I REMEMBER
SHE CALLED ME THE NEXT MORNING,
SHE'S LIKE, "ARE YOU OKAY?"
I'M LIKE, "YEAH, I'M FINE."
"YOU SOUND TIRED,"
AND I REALIZED,
SHE HAD BEEN UP ALL NIGHT,
YOU KNOW, WORRYING ABOUT ME.
SO WE NOW HAVE THIS
PROCESS ON STEROIDS.
WE NOW HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY
THAT ALLOWS KIDS TO GIVE THEIR
PARENTS REAL-TIME
UPDATES ON THEIR MOOD.
AND IT IS REALLY QUITE COMMON AT
THIS POINT FOR TEENAGERS WHO ARE
IN THE MIDDLE OF THEIR SCHOOL
DAY WHO GET A BAD TEST BACK OR
HAVE A FIGHT WITH A FRIEND TO
TEXT A PARENT AND TELL THEM THAT
THIS HAS OCCURRED AND USUALLY,
THEY HAVE THE SAME EXPERIENCE
I DID IN COLLEGE, WHICH IS, AS
SOON AS THEY'VE DUMPED IT,
THEY FEEL MUCH BETTER.

NAM SAYS BUT NOW YOU DON'T.

Lisa says BUT NOW THE PARENT IS A DISASTER
AND THE PARENT IS REALLY UPSET.
AND SO, WE HAVE TO REALLY MIND
THIS PROCESS, BOTH BECAUSE WE
WANT TEENAGERS TO DEVELOP COPING
RESOURCES THAT GO BEYOND DUMPING
EMOTIONS ON THEIR PARENTS, AND
WE ALSO DON'T WANT PARENTS
WHO GET TO THE END OF THE DAY
COMPLETELY FRAZZLED BECAUSE
THEY'VE SPENT ALL DAY WORRYING
ABOUT A KID WHO IS ACTUALLY ABLE
TO MANAGE
INDEPENDENTLY IF THEY WANTED TO.

Nam says AND GENERALLY, YOU SAY,
IT'S SOMETHING THAT'S GOOD.
THEY CAN WRITE DOWN THEIR
FEELINGS AND THEN
AT THE END OF THE DAY,
THEY CAN SHOW IT TO YOU.

Lisa says IF THEY WANT.

Nam says IF THEY WANT.
YEAH.
IN
UNDER PRESSURE,
YOU POINT OUT THAT THERE ARE
THREE UNHEALTHY FORMS OF
CONFLICT MANAGEMENT.
WHAT ARE THEY?

The caption changes to "Dealing with conflict."

Lisa says SO KIDS COME INTO
CONFLICT WITH EACH OTHER.
THIS IS A VERY COMMON SOURCE OF
STRESS AND WE'RE NOT ALWAYS AS
GOOD AS ADULTS AT TEACHING
THEM HOW TO DO CONFLICT WELL AND
OFTEN, IT'S BECAUSE WE'RE NOT
THAT GOOD AT DOING CONFLICT WELL
SO I NOW REALLY LIKE TO TEACH
KIDS CONFLICT AND TEACH THEM HOW
TO DO CONFLICT.
SO I SAY TO THEM,
"OKAY, THERE ARE THREE
UNHEALTHY FORMS OF CONFLICT."
THERE'S BEING A BULLDOZER.
IT'S A METAPHOR FOR
RUNNING PEOPLE OVER.
THERE'S BEING A DOORMAT, WHERE
YOU ALLOW YOURSELF TO BE
RUN OVER.
AND THERE'S BEING A DOORMAT WITH
SPIKES, WHICH IS THE MOST COMMON
FORM, WHICH IS BASICALLY
PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOUR.
AND THERE, I EVEN SAY TO KIDS,
"OKAY, WE CAN EVEN BREAK
THAT DOWN."
THERE'S USING GUILT AS A WEAPON.
THERE'S, YOU KNOW, PLAYING THE
PART OF THE VICTIM,
AND THERE'S INVOLVING
THIRD PARTIES
IN WHAT SHOULD BE REALLY,
A TWO-PARTY DISAGREEMENT.
SO THOSE ARE THE
UNHEALTHY FORMS.
AND THEN I SAY, THERE'S A
HEALTHY FORM AND IT'S TO BE
A PILLAR, WHICH IS WHERE YOU
STAND UP FOR YOURSELF
WHILE BEING RESPECTFUL OF
EVERYBODY ELSE.
AND THEN I LIKE TO GIVE THEM
SCENARIOS THAT WE PLAY WITH.
AND THEY'RE VERY GOOD USUALLY,
AT PLAYING OUT ALL OF THE
DIFFERENT UNHEALTHY FORMS.
THEY CAN READILY IMAGINE HOW
THEY WOULD, YOU KNOW, IF THEY
SAW, SAY, A FRIEND PUT SOMETHING
UP ONLINE OF A PARTY THAT THEY
INVITED EVERYBODY TO BUT,
YOU KNOW, EXCEPT FOR THE KID
WHO HAPPENED TO SEE IT.
IF THEY'RE INJURED BY THAT.
LIKE WE CAN IMAGINE ALL THE
BULLDOZER AND DOORMATTY AND
CERTAINLY DOORMATTY WITH
SPIKES THINGS THEY MIGHT DO.
AND ONCE THEY'VE DONE THAT,
I'LL SAY,
"OKAY, IF YOU WERE GOING TO
PILLAR THIS, YOU KNOW,
WHAT MIGHT YOU DO?"
AND THEY CAN SAY, "OH, I WOULD
ASK THE FRIEND AND SAY,
HEY, YOU HAD A PARTY,
ARE WE OKAY?'."
BUT IT'S REALLY HELPFUL TO TEACH
THEM LIKE,
EVERYBODY'S GOT THESE IMPULSES.
A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE
USING THESE UNHEALTHY FORMS.
YOU CAN IMAGINE THEM.
YOU CAN PLAY THEM
OUT IN YOUR MIND.
BUT IF YOU'RE REALLY GOING
TO ACT, YOU WANT TO ACT
AS A PILLAR.

Nam says I MEAN, THESE ARE TIPS THAT
YOU'RE USING FOR YOUNG WOMEN
BUT I KNOW PEOPLE MY
AGE...

[DR. DAMOUR LAUGHING]

Nam says AND ME SOMETIMES GUILTY.
I'VE BEHAVED IN
NOT SO GREAT WAYS.
SO WHY DO WE FIND THE
UNHEALTHY APPROACHES TO CONFLICT
MANAGEMENT SO MUCH EASIER
THAN TAKING THE PILLAR APPROACH?

Lisa says I DO THINK SOME OF IT IS JUST,
WE DON'T TALK ABOUT CONFLICT
AND WE DON'T TALK ABOUT
DOING IT EFFECTIVELY.
AND SO, WE JUST SORT OF
BEND TOWARDS
OUR LESS HEALTHY OPTIONS.
I ALSO THINK IT'S THE CASE
THAT TO ACT AS A PILLAR
IS EXHAUSTING, RIGHT?
TO REALLY CONTAIN ONE'S STRONG
REACTION AND GIVE THE PERSON
YOU'RE UPSET WITH A CHANCE TO
HANDLE THEMSELVES WELL IS HARD.
I HAVE INCREASINGLY... IN THINKING
ESPECIALLY WITH GIRLS ABOUT
CONFLICT THOUGH... I'VE
INCREASINGLY ALSO ASKED THEM THE
QUESTION, "IS THIS A CONFLICT
THAT'S WORTH YOUR WHILE?"
BECAUSE WE OFTEN FEEL,
ESPECIALLY WITH GIRLS WHEN
WE'RE TRYING TO SORT OF EMPOWER
THEM, WE'RE OFTEN LIKE,
YOU KNOW, "SHE SAID THAT.
YOU'VE GOT TO RESPOND TO HER.
YOU KNOW, SHE HURT YOUR
FEELINGS, YOU'VE GOT TO LET HER
KNOW THAT WAS BOTHERING YOU."
AND WHEN I SAY TO KIDS,
"IS THIS A CONFLICT THAT'S
GOING TO GO WELL.
IS THIS WORTH YOUR WHILE?
IF YOU PILLAR THIS, IS SHE'S
GOING TO PILLAR BACK?"
OFTEN THEY'LL SAY,
"NO, YOU KNOW,
IT'S NOT THAT WORTH
IT TO ME," OR
"I KNOW HER AND I CAN PILLAR ALL
DAY LONG AND SHE'S JUST
GOING TO DOORMAT WITH
SPIKES," YOU KNOW.
SO I'VE INCREASINGLY GIVEN GIRLS
THE CHANCE OF SAYING LIKE,
"I'M NOT SURE THIS IS A
CONFLICT I WANT TO HAVE."
AND WHAT I SAY TO THEM THEN IS,
YOU HAVE THE OPTION... I'M GOING
TO GIVE YOU ONE MORE HEALTHY
OPTION HERE AND IT'S WHAT I CALL
EMOTIONAL AIKIDO, RIGHT?
SO IN THE MARTIAL ART OF
AIKIDO, IF SOMETHING IS COMING
AT YOU, THE FIRST MOVE ALWAYS IS
ACTUALLY TO STEP TO THE SIDE
AND LET THEM GO BY.
AND I'LL SAY, YOU KNOW,
"YOU MIGHT WANT TO
EMOTIONAL AIKIDO THIS.
OKAY, SO SHE DIDN'T INVITE YOU
TO THE PARTY BUT YOU'RE NOT
THAT GOOD A FRIEND.
YOU WEREN'T THINKING ABOUT
INVITING HER TO YOUR NEXT PARTY.
WHAT IF YOU JUST TACTICALLY
NOT RESPOND TO THIS?"
AND I HAVE WATCHED SO MUCH DRAMA
DIE FOR KIDS JUST SAYING,
"YOU KNOW WHAT?
I DON'T CARE THAT MUCH
ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP.
THIS ISN'T GOING TO BE
A VALUABLE CONFLICT.
IT'S NOT WORTH IT TO ME.
I'M JUST GOING
TO... NOT IGNORE THIS.
I'M GOING TO MAKE A DECISION
THAT STRATEGICALLY,
IT'S NOT WORTH MY TIME," REALLY
GIVES KIDS A LOT OF POWER.
AND THE ONLY THING YOU HAVE TO
BE SURE TO DO IS TO SAY TO THEM,
"DON'T WORRY, THIS IS NOT
THE SAME AS DOORMATTING."
"YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES I FEEL LIKE
IF I DON'T SAY SOMETHING,
I'M LETTING HER ROLL ALL
OVER ME."
AND I SAY, "NO, DOORMAT IS
IF YOU'RE CRYING IN YOUR ROOM,
WONDERING WHY YOU
WEREN'T INVITED TO THE PARTY."
EMOTIONAL AIKIDO IS TO
SAY, "YOU KNOW WHAT?
I'M GOING TO LET THIS ONE GO."

NAM SAYS LIKE CHOOSING YOUR BATTLES.

Lisa says YEAH, "I'M GOING TO
PICK MY BATTLES."

Nam says SOMETHING THAT WE'VE HAD A LOT
OF CONVERSATIONS ABOUT LATELY IS
THE hashtag METOO MOVEMENT.

Lisa says YES.

Nam says BUT YOU RECENTLY HAD A
DISCUSSION WITH A GROUP OF GIRLS
AT THE SCHOOL WHERE YOU WORK...
WHAT WAS THAT CONVERSATION LIKE?

The caption changes to "Sex, sexism and sexuality."

Lisa says IT WAS EYE OPENING, REALLY.
IT WAS SHORTLY AFTER THE HARVEY
WEINSTEIN STORY BROKE AND I WAS
MEETING WITH A BUNCH OF HIGH
SCHOOL GIRLS AND I SAID TO THEM.
"DO YOU GUYS WANT TO TALK
ABOUT THIS hashtag METOO STUFF?"
AND I, NAIVELY, REALLY NAIVELY,
WENT INTO THE CONVERSATION
THINKING THAT I WAS GOING TO USE
THAT CONVERSATION
TO PREPARE THEM FOR
WHAT WAS AHEAD.
YOU KNOW, WHEN THEY WERE IN THE
PROFESSIONAL WORLD, IF SOMEBODY
CROSSED A LINE WITH THEM, HOW
WERE THEY GOING TO HANDLE IT.
AND INSTEAD, WHAT HAPPENED... AND
THIS IS IN AN ALL-GIRLS
ENVIRONMENT... THIS
CONVERSATION HAPPENED.
THEY STARTED TO POUR OUT STORIES
OF HOW MUCH HARASSMENT THEY ARE
DEALING WITH FROM
BOYS OUTSIDE OF SCHOOL.
AND I WAS REALLY QUITE FLOORED
AND FLOORED BOTH BECAUSE
I REALLY FEEL LIKE I'M KIND OF
ON TOP OF WHAT'S HAPPENING
WITH KIDS.
LIKE I REALLY AM WITH TEENAGERS
ALL THE TIME AND ALSO JUST
BY HOW PERVASIVE WHAT
THEY WERE DESCRIBING WAS.
BUT WHAT THEY WERE DESCRIBING IS
ACTUALLY BACKED BY THE RESEARCH.
THAT WE HAVE SURVEYS SHOWING
THAT BY EIGHTH GRADE,
HALF OF GIRLS IN CO-ED
ENVIRONMENTS HAVE DEALT
WITH ALL SORTS OF HARASSMENT.
YOU KNOW, BOYS TOUCHING THEM,
BOYS STARTING RUMOURS,
BOYS DRAWING INAPPROPRIATE
STUFF ON THEIR NOTEBOOKS.
THAT THIS IS VERY MUCH STANDARD
AND NORMALIZED IN
MIDDLE SCHOOL ENVIRONMENTS.
LESS SO A LITTLE BIT AS
KIDS GET INTO HIGH SCHOOL.
BUT I HAVE REALLY STARTED TO
THINK, YOU KNOW, THE hashtag METOO
MOVEMENT, LIKE WE'VE GOTTA DEAL
WITH THE MIDDLE SCHOOL LEVEL OF
THE METOO MOVEMENT.
THAT HAS NOT YET
REALLY BEEN AT THE CENTRE.

Nam says WE ONLY HAVE A FEW MORE MINUTES
LEFT AND I WANT TO GET A FEW
MORE QUESTIONS IN.

Lisa says YEAH.

Nam says BUT YOU WRITE THAT CULTURALLY,
WE'VE PLACED YOUNG WOMEN IN
CHARGE OF REGULATING
ADOLESCENT SEXUALITY.

Lisa says YES.

NAM SAYS IN WHAT WAYS
HAVE WE DONE THAT?

Lisa says SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT
CONCERNS ME IS THERE'S A BIT OF
AN OFFENCE-DEFENCE FRAMEWORK
THAT WE ADVANCE WHEN WE TALK
WITH YOUNG PEOPLE, BOYS AND
GIRLS, ABOUT ROMANCE AND WE DO
IT IN VARIOUS WAYS.
SO, FOR INSTANCE, WHEN WE TALK
ABOUT "THE TALK," IT TURNS OUT,
THE RESEARCH TELLS
US THERE'S TWO TALKS.
SO THERE'S THE TALK FOR
BOYS AND THE TALK FOR GIRLS.
SO THE TALK FOR BOYS USUALLY
COMES DOWN TO US SAYING,
"ALL RIGHT, BUDDY.
WHEN YOU HAVE SEX, GET
CONSENT AND WEAR A CONDOM."
AND WHEN WE TALK TO GIRLS,
WE USUALLY SAY,
"DON'T GET PREGNANT,
DON'T GET AN STD,
DON'T GET YOURSELF
IN A BAD POSITION."
SOME ADULTS SAY THIS... I
DON'T SAY THIS... "DON'T HARM YOUR
REPUTATION," BUT IT'S SORT OF
LIKE "GO, GO, GO," FOR THE BOYS
AND "STOP, STOP, STOP,"
FOR THE GIRLS.
AND IN THIS AND OTHER WAYS,
WE... WHETHER WE MEAN TO OR NOT,
WE BASICALLY SAY,
"ALL RIGHT, GIRLS.
YOU'RE GOING TO REGULATE
ADOLESCENT SEXUALITY, 'CAUSE
WE'RE NOT GOING TO ASK THE
BOYS," AND THIS IS SOMETHING WE
NEED TO REALLY RECONSIDER AS
ADULTS BECAUSE THIS IS NOT THE
POSITION WE WANT ANYBODY IN.

Nam says YOU ALSO WRITE THAT...

Another quote from Lisa's book appears on screen, under the title "Say no." The quote reads "We routinely teach girls that the only way to turn down sexual activity is with a clear, direct, unmodulated and unvarnished 'no.'"

Nam says WHAT DO YOU SEE AS A BETTER
ALTERNATIVE TO THAT ADVICE?

Lisa says I THINK WE WANT TO KEEP
THAT ADVICE ON THE TABLE.
I THINK WE ALSO WANT TO
RECOGNIZE THAT FEMINIST
LINGUISTS SUCH AS DEBORAH
CAMERON, WHO I WRITE ABOUT IN
THIS BOOK, HAVE QUESTIONED THAT
ADVICE BECAUSE IT MAY NOT MATCH
THE CONTEXT A GIRL IS IN.
SO HERE ARE TWO CONTEXTS
WE NEED TO BE MINDFUL OF.
ONE IS WHERE SHE ACTUALLY REALLY
LIKES THE PERSON SHE'S WITH
BUT SHE DOESN'T WANT TO GO AS
FAR AS THAT PERSON WANTS TO GO.
IT'S VERY RARE IN FRIENDLY
INTERACTIONS FOR PEOPLE
TO GIVE A FLAT REFUSAL.
SO IF I INVITE YOU TO DINNER,
I SAY,
"WOULD YOU LIKE TO COME
OVER FOR DINNER?"
AND YOU SAY, "NO."
THAT WOULD BE A VERY...

Nam says YOU RARELY SAY NO, YEAH.

Lisa says YOU DON'T DO THAT.
YOU DON'T DO THAT WITH PEOPLE
YOU ACTUALLY WANT TO MAINTAIN A
RELATIONSHIP WITH.

Nam says YOU MAKE EXCUSES.

Lisa says THIS IS A WIDELY ACCEPTED AND
UNDERSTOOD WAY IN OUR CULTURE
THAT YOU REFUSE THINGS.
SO ONE OPTION WE NEED TO GIVE
GIRLS IS IF THEY WANT TO SAY NO
AND NOT HARM THE RELATIONSHIP,
THEY DO HAVE AN OPTION OF
SAYING, "I NEED TO LEAVE,
SOMEONE IS EXPECTING ME,"
OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
THE OTHER REASON DEBORAH CAMERON
QUESTIONS THIS ADVICE IS THAT A
FLAT NO IS ACTUALLY SEEN AS
A FAIRLY HOSTILE GESTURE.
AND SHE HAS POINTED OUT, IF WE
HAVE A YOUNG WOMAN WHO IS
IN A SITUATION WHERE SHE FEELS
THREATENED, OR FRIGHTENED,
DO WE REALLY WANT TO ENCOURAGE
HER TO USE A SPEECH ACT THAT
IS WIDELY REGARDED AS A...

Nam says CONFRONTATIONAL.

Lisa says YEAH.
AND SO WE ALSO WANT TO GIVE
GIRLS AN OPTION OF USING
AN EXCUSE FOR SAFETY, RIGHT?
AND WHAT I FURTHER KIND OF
DEVELOP IN MY THINKING IN THE
BOOK IS, WE CAN'T REALLY TELL
GIRLS THERE'S ONE RIGHT WAY
TO SPEAK UNDER ANY
CONDITIONS, RIGHT?
COMMUNICATION IS
WILDLY CONTEXT-DEPENDENT.
EVEN NONVERBAL COMMUNICATION
IS HUGELY COMPLEX AND THEN YOU
THROW WORDS ON TOP OF IT.
IT'S HUGELY COMPLEX.
SO I TALK IN THIS BOOK ABOUT
HELPING GIRLS BUILD OUT A VERBAL
TOOL KIT, RIGHT?
WHERE THEY HAVE A WHOLE VARIETY
OF OPTIONS AT THEIR DISPOSAL.
SO EVERY GIRL SHOULD
HAVE A HAMMER, RIGHT?
THERE MAY BE TIMES WHERE A
REALLY BLUNT NO IS EXACTLY WHAT
IS CALLED FOR BUT SHE SHOULD
HAVE OTHER TOOLS TOO BECAUSE
THE CONTEXT WILL CHANGE AND WE
DON'T WANT GIRLS FEELING LIKE
THEY DON'T HAVE THE TOOL THEY
NEED IN THE MOMENT TO MAKE
WHAT THEY WANT TO HAVE
HAPPEN, HAPPEN.

Nam says EVEN IF... JUST USE
YOUR PARENTS SAY...

Lisa says YEAH... "IF I DO THIS, MY
PARENTS WILL..."

Nam says WHATEVER.

Lisa says ANYTHING.
I AM MUCH MORE INTERESTED IN
HAVING GIRLS DO WHAT IT IS
THEY WANT TO DO THAN TELLING
THEM THERE'S ONE RIGHT WAY
TO MAKE IT HAPPEN.

Nam says THIS IS A FANTASTIC BOOK.

Lisa says OH, THANK YOU.

NAM SAYS THANK YOU SO
MUCH FOR WRITING IT.
AND CONGRATULATIONS.

Lisa says I APPRECIATE THAT.

The caption changes to "Producer: Gregg Thurlbeck, @GreggThurlbeck."

NAM SAYS IT'S A
NEW YORK TIMES
BESTSELLER.

Lisa says I APPRECIATE THAT.

Nam says IT'S BEEN A PLEASURE
HAVING YOU HERE, DR. AMOUR.
THANK YOU.

Lisa says THANK YOU.

Watch: A Girls' Guide to Coping with Anxiety