Transcript: Police Oversight in Ontario | Mar 12, 2019

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, blue shirt, and spotted blue tie.

A caption on screen reads "Police oversight in Ontario. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says LAST MONTH, THE PROVINCE
PROPOSED SUBSTANTIAL CHANGES TO
THE POLICE SERVICES ACT.
THE AIM IS TO STRENGTHEN TRUST
BETWEEN THE POLICE AND THE
PUBLIC, AND REPLACE THE PREVIOUS
GOVERNMENT'S REFORMS WHICH THIS
GOVERNMENT CALLED A "DISASTER."
AND "ANTI-POLICE."
WITH US TO CONSIDER THE NEW
APPROACH: HUGH STEVENSON, CHIEF
OF THE SAULT STE. MARIE POLICE SERVICE...

Hugh is in his late fifties, balding, with a mustache. He's wearing a white police uniform shirt with shoulder decorations and a black tie.

Steve continues BRUCE CHAPMAN,
PRESIDENT OF THE POLICE
ASSOCIATION OF ONTARIO...

Bruce is in his early sixties, with short side-parted gray hair and a thin mustache. He's wearing a gray suit, blue shirt, and patterned blue tie.

Steve continues AKWASI OWUSU-BEMPAH, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR IN THE DEPARTMENT OF
SOCIOLOGY AT THE UNIVERSITY OF
TORONTO, MISSISSAUGA...

Akwasi is in his early forties, clean-shaven and bald. He's wearing a dark blue suit, white shirt, and beige plaid tie.

Steve continues AND WENDY GILLIS, CRIME REPORTER FOR THE "TORONTO STAR."

Wendy is in her thirties, with long straight highlighted brown hair. She's wearing a black blazer over a cream turtleneck.

Steve continues AND WE'RE DELIGHTED TO WELCOME
EVERYBODY AROUND OUR TABLE
TONIGHT FOR THIS TIMELY
CONVERSATION.
WENDY, GOING TO PUT YOU TO WORK
RIGHT AWAY.
YOUR FIRST TIME ON THE PROGRAM.
LET'S GET RIGHT TO IT.
WHY DID THE PC GOVERNMENT CHOOSE
TO CHANGE THE APPROACH BROUGHT
IN BY THE PREVIOUS LIBERAL
GOVERNMENT.

The caption changes to "Wendy Gillis. Toronto Star."
Then, it changes again to "New rules."

Wendy says THAT'S A REALLY GOOD QUESTION.
I THINK IT WAS PREMIER DOUG FORD
SAYING IT WAS ANTI-POLICE THAT
HAD GONE TOO FAR.
THIS FOLLOWING A MAJOR REPORT BY
JUSTICE MICHAEL TULLOCH WHO HAD
COME IN A FEW YEARS BEFORE TO
OVERVIEW POLICE OVERSIGHT, AND
THE PREVIOUS LIBERAL GOVERNMENT
MADE CHANGES ON THAT REPORT THAT
SOME HAD ARGUED WENT TOO FAR.
SO THIS WAS A CAMPAIGN PROMISE,
AND IT WAS IN FACT ONE OF THE
FIRST THINGS THAT DOUG FORD DID
WHEN HE BECAME PREMIER OF THE
PROVINCE.

Steve says AS YOU LOOKED AT IT,
DID YOU THINK THAT THE BALANCE
HAD GONE OUT OF WHACK TOO MUCH
ANTI-POLICE, NOT ENOUGH...

The caption changes to "Akwasi Owusu-Bempah. University of Toronto, Mississauga."

Akwasi says I DON'T THINK IT HAD GONE TOO
ANTI-POLICE.
I THINK THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT,
BASED ON MICHAEL TULLOCH'S
RECOMMENDATIONS, WERE RESPONDING
TO CONCERNS STEMMING FROM THINGS
LIKE POLICING RELATED TO THE G20
SUMMIT, CONCERNS RELATED TO THE
GROWTH OF THE BLACK LIVES MATTER
MOVEMENT, AND OTHER COMMUNITY
ORIENTED CONCERNS AROUND
POLICING, AND WE NEED TO
ACKNOWLEDGE THAT POLICING IN
THIS PROVINCE HAD NOT UNDERGONE
A MAJOR OVERHAUL IN THE BETTER
PART OF A GENERATION, AND SO
THESE WERE VERY MUCH DUE AND I
WOULD SAY IN LINE WITH CHANGES
IN POLICING THAT WE'RE SEEING IN
OTHER AREAS IN NORTH AMERICA AND
IN THE WEST GENERALLY.

Steve says HUGH STEVENSON, DID
YOU THINK THAT THE PREVIOUS
LIBERAL GOVERNMENT HAD GOT THE
BALANCE WRONG?

The caption changes to "Hugh Stevenson. Sault Ste. Marie Police Service."

Hugh says NO, I WOULDN'T SAY THEY GOT
IT WRONG.
IN FACT, I WOULD CONCUR WITH MY
COLLEAGUE, THAT YOU KNOW, IT WAS
THE FIRST REVIEW IN 15 YEARS.
THE POLICE SERVICES ACT NEEDED
TO BE REVIEWED.
IT NEEDED TO BE CONSULTED WITH
THE STAKEHOLDERS, LIKE BRUCE AND
ROB JAMIESON AND MCCORMICK, AND
SO I THINK THE TIMING WAS RIGHT.
WHAT I DID FIND, THOUGH, IS THE
ISSUE OF TRANSPARENCY AND
ACCOUNTABILITY IN THE NEW ACT, I
THINK, FAVOURS ALL POLICING, AS
WELL AS COMMUNITIES.

Steve says JUST FOLLOW UP ON
THAT.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN?

Hugh says WELL, I'LL START OFF WITH THE
INSPECTOR GENERAL APPROACH.
I MEAN, FOR YEARS WE'VE TALKED
ABOUT STANDARDS IN POLICING, AND
THE MINISTRY HAS, YOU KNOW,
PLAYED ALONG WITH THEIR ROLE IN
KEEPING STANDARDS IN POLICING
HIGH.
BUT I ALWAYS FELT THAT IT FAILED
TEETH.
IT FAILED IMPETUS, AND THE NEW
ACT WITH THE INSPECTOR GENERAL,
I BELIEVE, PUTS THAT ROLE A
LITTLE BIT MORE PARAMOUNT AND
CENTRAL TO THE GOVERNMENT'S
RESPONSIBILITY FOR, YOU KNOW,
THE 63 OR 53 POLICE SERVICES IN
THIS PROVINCE.
THE BIGGEST ISSUE I CAN SPEAK
FROM MY OWN SERVICE IS THE FACT
THAT, YOU KNOW, WHEN SIU IS
CALLED...

Steve says THAT'S THE SPECIAL
INVESTIGATIONS UNIT.

Hugh says THAT'S CORRECT.
THAT THERE IS TIMELINES PUT ON
THE LENGTH OF THEIR
INVESTIGATION.
WHY IS THAT IMPORTANT?
IT'S IMPORTANT TO OUR MEMBERS.
IT'S IMPORTANT TO THE COMMUNITY.
IT'S IMPORTANT TO OVERSIGHT SO
THAT THE PUBLIC ARE AWARE OF THE
FACT WITHIN THREE MONTHS THAT
THIS ISSUE HAS BEEN RESOLVED.

Steve says WE'RE GOING TO DIVE A
LITTLE DEEPER IN THIS AS WE GO
ALONG HERE.
BRUCE, I SHOULD FIRST OF ALL GET
YOU TO COMMENT ON YOUR VIEW ON
WHETHER THE PREVIOUS ACT AS
AMENDED BY THE LIBERALS WENT TOO
FAR IN ONE DIRECTION OVER ANOTHER.

The caption changes to "Bruce Chapman. Police Association of Ontario."

Bruce says WELL, THERE WAS NO DOUBT
CHANGE WAS NEEDED.
MODERNIZATION OF THE POLICE
SERVICE ACT WAS COMING.
THIS STARTED IN 2011.
2011 THE FUTURE OF POLICE
ADVISORY COMMITTEE STARTED WHERE
THERE WAS MAKE UP OF PERSONNEL,
CHIEFS, ASSOCIATIONS,
MUNICIPALITIES, POLICE SERVICES
BOARD, ALL SITTING AT THE TABLE
SINCE 2011.
WE KNEW THAT THERE WAS GOING TO
BE CHANGES TO IT, AND WE
WELCOMED IT.
I THINK EVERYBODY WELCOMED IT.
THE PUBLIC, THE STAKEHOLDERS,
THE POLICING PERSPECTIVE ALL
WELCOMED IT.
WE GOT THE LEGISLATION, AND I
THINK THERE WERE CHANGES THAT
NEEDED TO BE MADE, AND I THINK
THIS GOVERNMENT MADE SOME OF
THOSE CHANGES TO MAKE IT FAIR
AND EFFECTIVE, OVERSIGHT,
ACCOUNTABILITY, TRANSPARENCY ARE
ALL VITAL TO HAVE THE TRUST OF
THE PUBLIC IN THE POLICE AND TO
KEEP POLICING PROFESSIONAL.

Steve says WENDY, WE HAVE SEEN
THAT WHEN THIS GOVERNMENT WANTS
TO CONSULT, FOR EXAMPLE, ON
REGIONAL GOVERNMENT REALIGNMENT,
THEY CAN DO IT DEEPLY AND
FREQUENTLY AND BY MOST ACCOUNTS
SO FAR WELL.
THEN YOU GET SITUATIONS LIKE
CUTTING TORONTO CITY COUNCIL IN
HALF WHERE THEY BASICALLY JUST
DO IT OVERNIGHT WITH NO
CONSULTATION AT ALL.
WHERE DID THIS ISSUE FALL ON
THAT SPECTRUM?

Wendy says I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO
REMEMBER THAT DURING THAT BIG
REVIEW DONE BY MICHAEL TULLOCH
LIKE I WAS TELLING YOU EARLIER,
THERE WAS EXTENSIVE
CONSULTATION.
SO WHEN THE FORD GOVERNMENT CAME
IN AND SAID WE'RE GOING TO PUT A
HALT ON THIS LEGISLATION TO DO
FURTHER CONSULTATION, THERE WAS
A LOT OF SORT OF SCRATCHING OF
HEADS BECAUSE THAT HAD JUST BEEN
DONE AND EXTENSIVELY TO POLICE
SERVICES, TO POLICE
ASSOCIATIONS, TO COMMUNITIES
IMPORTANTLY, AND SO I THINK THE
CONSULTATION THAT WAS DONE
AFTERWARD WAS POTENTIALLY NOT
INCREDIBLY NECESSARY.
WHAT I DO KNOW IS THAT POLICE
ASSOCIATIONS WERE CONSULTED.
I'M NOT SURE BEYOND THAT IF MUCH
HAPPENED.

Steve says OKAY, SO YOU WERE
CONSULTED.

Bruce says ABSOLUTELY.

Steve says HOW ABOUT THE CHIEFS
OF POLICE?
WERE THEY CONSULTED?

Hugh says I BELIEVE THE OACP WOULD HAVE
BEEN CONSULTED.
I DON'T HAVE FIRST-HAND
EVIDENCE.

Steve says HOW ABOUT UNIVERSITY
PROFESSORS WHO SPENT THEIR LIFE
LOOKING AT THIS ISSUE?

Akwasi says I'VE BEEN DOING RESEARCH IN
THE AREA FOR A BETTER PART OF A
DECADE AND A HALF.
I WASN'T CONSULTED.

Steve says HOW ABOUT YOUR
COLLEAGUES IN THIS FIELD?

The caption changes to "Akwasi Owusu-Bempah, @AOBempah."

Akwasi says NOT AS FAR AS I KNOW, AND
AGAIN, I DON'T THINK COMMUNITY
GROUPS WERE RE-CONSULTED.
I'M NOT SURE THEY NEEDED TO BE.
I DO THINK PART OF THEIR
CONSULTATION WAS THE
CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENT WANTING
TO PLACATE CONCERNS OF POLICE
PARTIES, REALLY, THAT THEY FELT
THAT PREVIOUS ACT HAD GONE TOO
FAR IN THE OTHER WAY, AND THEY
WANTED TO SAY, LOOK, DON'T
WORRY, WE'VE GOT YOU HERE.

Steve says WELL, THE
CORRECTIONAL... COMMUNITY SAFETY
CONNECTIONAL SERVICES MINISTER
SYLVIA JONES CALLED THE
LEGISLATION THE MOST
ANTI-POLICING LEGISLATION IN
HISTORY.
DO YOU THINK THIS IS ACCURATE?

The caption changes to "Restoring respect?"

Akwasi says AS AN ACADEMIC I'D WANT TO
SAY THE IMPERIAL BASIS ON WHAT
SUCH AN ASSERTION WAS MADE, AND
I HAVEN'T SEEN ONE.
THIS TYPE OF RHETORIC I THINK
WE'VE SEEN THIS COMING FROM THIS
ADMINISTRATION AND OTHER PLACES
BEFORE.
I'D CALL IT SOMEWHAT TRUMPIAN.
NO, THIS IS JUST... IT'S
POPULIST.
IT GETS THE BASE MOBILIZED AND
CONCERNED ON AN ISSUE.

Steve says AS A GUY WEARING A
UNIFORM BESIDE YOU, DID YOU FEEL
THAT THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT'S
LEGISLATION WAS THE MOST
ANTI-POLICING LEGISLATION IN HISTORY?

Hugh says AS A CHIEF AS AN ACADEMIC, I
CAN SAY THAT, NO, I DIDN'T THINK
THAT.
I FELT THAT THE LIBERALS
CERTAINLY HAD AN INTEREST IN
MAKING THINGS BETTER, WHICH IS
GOOD.
I THINK THEY DID THEIR
CONSULTATION, BUT IN THE END, I
MEAN, EVERY GOVERNMENT HAS THE
OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE IT BETTER.
AND REALLY THAT ACT WAS IN PLACE
FOR A MONTH OR TWO BEFORE THE
CURRENT GOVERNMENT CAME IN AND
MADE CHANGES.

Steve says HMM.

Hugh says SO IN FAIRNESS, I WOULD
SUGGEST THAT THE CURRENT
GOVERNMENT HAS DONE THEIR BEST
TO MAKE IT MORE TRANSPARENT,
MORE ACCOUNTABLE AND MORE
TIMELY.
FOR FRONT-LINE POLICE OFFICERS
AND THE PUBLIC.

Steve says THE USE OF LANGUAGE,
WENDY, IS INTERESTING HERE
BECAUSE... WELL, WE KNOW THE
FORD GOVERNMENT HAS PLANTED ITS
FLAG FIRMLY ON BEING SORT OF
PRO-COP AND SUPPORTERS OF THE
POLICE AND, YOU KNOW, THAT'S
WHERE THEY'RE COMING FROM.
THAT'S FINE.

Wendy says YEP.

Steve says THEY ALSO USE LANGUAGE
LIKE THE POLICE ARE OUR OVER-DAY
HEROES.
WHAT INFERENCE DO YOU DRAW FROM
THAT KIND OF REFERENCE?

The caption changes to "Wendy Gillis, @wendygillis."

Wendy says I THINK THAT COMMUNITY GROUPS
WOULD RIGHTLY BE CONCERNED ABOUT
THAT KIND OF LANGUAGE, JUST
BECAUSE IT ASCERTAINS THAT THE
GOVERNMENT IS TAKING THE POLICE
SIDE AUTOMATICALLY AND THAT DE
FACTO THEY'RE GOING TO BELIEVE
THE POLICE ACCOUNT OF CERTAIN
INTERACTIONS, AND THAT'S
DANGEROUS, RIGHT?
THAT'S WHY WE NEED POLICE
OVERSIGHT.
THAT'S WHY WE NEED INDEPENDENCE,
AND THE SUGGESTION, YOU KNOW,
FROM THE ATTORNEY GENERAL AND
FROM THE... FROM SYLVIA JONES,
THE MINISTER OF COMMUNITY
SAFETY, SAYING THAT, YES, POLICE
ARE HEROES.
FOR SURE WE CAN TALK ABOUT
POLICE.
THEY DO A GREAT JOB.
THEY DO A HARD JOB, AND WE NEED
TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT.
BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, IT'S
DANGEROUS TO ASSUME THAT THEY
ARE HEROES.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Steve says BRUCE, WHAT'S YOUR
VIEW ON THAT?

The caption changes to "Bruce Chapman, @BruceChapman924."

Bruce says IT'S NICE TO HEAR SOME
POSITIVE ABOUT POLICING.
YOU KNOW, THE VAST MAJORITY OF
OUR UNIFORM AND CIVILIAN MEMBERS
IN POLICE SERVICES ARE ALL
PROFESSIONALS AND THEY DO A
GREAT JOB EVERY SINGLE DAY.
WE ALWAYS HAVE THAT ONE CASE OF
THAT MAKES THE NEWS AND WE GET
THE BAD STORY, BUT GENERALLY
OFFICERS AND CIVILIANS DO THE
JOB PROFESSIONALLY.
SO IT'S NICE TO HAVE SUPPORT OF
GOVERNMENT AND THE PUBLIC
SUPPORTS US.
I MEAN, THE STATS HAVE SHOWN
THAT THE PUBLIC SUPPORT
PROFESSIONAL POLICING IN
ONTARIO.
SO IT'S NICE TO HEAR.

Steve says AKWASI OWUSU-BEMPAH?
EVERYDAY HEROES?

Akwasi says ABSOLUTELY, THEY DO A
DIFFICULT JOB, AND THE DANGER
COMES IN SUCH LANGUAGE
REINFORCES THAT DIVIDE BETWEEN
THE PEOPLE AND THE POLICE THAT
WE SEE IN MANY COMMUNITIES, AND
ULTIMATELY IF THE GOAL IS PUBLIC
SAFETY, WE SHOULD BE WORKING
TOGETHER AND FOSTERING THIS
COLLECTIVELY RATHER THAN
BUILDING A GULF BETWEEN THESE
TWO PARTIES.
AND UNFORTUNATELY AS ONE OF MY
COLLEAGUES WROTE IN THE "STAR."
RECENTLY, THE WAY IN WHICH THE
GOVERNMENT PRESENTED THIS BILL
ONLY REINFORCES THIS US VERSUS
THEM MENTALITY AND KIND OF
FLIPPED THIS IDEA THAT MANY
COMMUNITIES, PEOPLE OFTEN FEEL
THAT THEY'RE ALWAYS SUSPECT, AND
THAT WAS FLIPPED TO SUGGEST THAT
THE POLICE WERE ALWAYS SUSPECT.

Steve says CHIEF STEVENSON, YOU
MENTIONED A LITTLE WHILE AGO THE
SIU AND SOME OF THE CHANGES THAT
HAVE COME INTO THAT SPECIAL
INVESTIGATIONS UNIT.
WE WANT TO PUT A FEW POINTS UP HERE.
LET'S BRING UP THE GRAPHIC TO
TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE CHANGES
TO THE LEGISLATION THAT ARE NOW ENCASED.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "Changes to the S.I.U. Comprehensive Ontario Police Services Act, 2019."

Steve reads data from the slate and says
THE COMPREHENSIVE ONTARIO POLICE
SERVICES ACT 2019 NOW MAINTAINS
MANDATORY NOTIFICATION OF THE
SIU UNDER SPECIFIED
CIRCUMSTANCES, FOR EXAMPLE, A
SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH, AND
WHEN THERE WAS A USE OF FORCE.
IT REMOVES THE ABILITY OF THE
SIU TO INVESTIGATE CIVILIANS WHO
MAY HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN
CRIMINAL CONDUCT RESULTING IN AN
INCIDENT, AND IT REQUIRES THE
SIU TO EXPLAIN DELAYS EVERY 30
DAYS PAST THE 120-DAY MARK OF AN
ONGOING INVESTIGATION.
AND CHIEF, I'LL GO BACK TO YOU
ON THIS BECAUSE YOU TOUCHED ON
THIS EARLIER, WHAT'S NOTEWORTHY
ABOUT THESE CHANGES?

The caption changes to "Narrowing the scope of the S.I.U."

Hugh says IF I MAY BACK TO THE POLICE
HEROES FOR TWO SECONDS?

Steve says OH, OKAY.

Hugh says ABSOLUTELY OUR FRONT-LINE
OFFICERS ARE HEROES.
AND I THINK TOO MANY TIMES WE
CELEBRATE THE PROBLEMS AND THE
ISSUES.
IF I MAY, 7:00 THIS MORNING I
GOT NOTIFIED OF A YOUNG PERSON
IN A MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS WHO
WALKED UP TO ONE OF MY OFFICERS'
CARS WITH A KNIFE TO HIS THROAT
AND WANTED TO BE SUICIDE BY COP.
AND IT WAS THEIR PROFESSIONAL
JUDGMENT THAT SAVED THAT KID'S
LIFE.
THAT IS A HERO.
SO TO YOUR SIU ISSUES, YOUR
THIRD POINT WAS VERY IMPORTANT
ON THE ISSUE OF THE 120 DAYS.
I THINK THAT HAS THE BIGGEST
IMPACT FOR CHIEFS OF POLICE, FOR
COMMUNITIES, FOR POLICE SERVICE
BOARDS, FOR GOVERNING
AUTHORITIES TO KNOW THAT IF
THERE WAS AN ALLEGATION OF
CRIMINALITY RELATED TO POLICE
OFFICERS, NO CIVILIANS, THAT AN
ACCOUNTABLE REPRESENTATION
INDEPENDENT FROM THE POLICE WILL
GET BACK TO THEM WITH THEIR
FINDINGS.
FOR TOO LONG UNDER THE OLD
LEGISLATION ASSOCIATIONS, CHIEFS
AND BOARDS WERE KEPT IN THE
DARK.
THERE WAS AN APPROPRIATE...
MAYBE IT WAS STAFFING, MAYBE IT
WAS APPROACH.
I'M NOT QUITE SURE.
BUT THIS REGULATION, IF YOU WANT
TO CALL IT, IN THE SIU IS
CERTAINLY HELPFUL.
IN TERMS OF YOUR SECOND POINT IN
INVESTIGATING CIVILIANS, THAT
DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY WILL
NEVER BE INVESTIGATED.
CERTAINLY IF THERE'S ANY
ALLEGATION OF CRIMINALITY FOR A
POLICE MEMBER BEING CIVILIAN OR
POLICE, THAT WILL BE READILY
INVESTIGATED.
SO THE COROLLARY TO THAT POINT
THEN IS WE HAVE MORE TIME TO
ENSURE THAT POLICE OFFICERS OR
PEACE OFFICERS AS THE
LEGISLATION TALKS ABOUT WILL
HAVE THE FULL BOUND OF SIU
INVESTIGATION AND TIMELINESS.

Steve says WHAT ARE YOU HEARING
FROM STAKEHOLDERS AS TO WHETHER
THEY THINK THIS IMPROVES THE
SIU'S MISSION?

Wendy says I WOULD SAY ONE OF THE
BIGGEST ISSUES SO FAR IS THE ONE
ABOUT NOTIFICATION.
SO WE EXPECT THAT THE SIU IS
CALLED IN WHENEVER THERE'S A
REASONABLE INDICATION THAT THEY
HAVE A MANDATE, SO THAT THEY
SHOULD BE CALLED IN WHEN SOMEONE
DIES, WHEN SOMEONE IS SERIOUSLY
INJURED AND WHEN THERE'S AN
ALLEGATION OF SEXUAL ASSAULT.
NOTIFICATION HAS BEEN A REALLY
BIG ISSUE FOR THE SIU JUST
BECAUSE, OF COURSE, IT'S THE
POLICE THEMSELVES THAT CALL THEM
IN.
AND SO THEY ARE MAKING THE CALL
AS TO, OKAY, COULD THE SIU
REASONABLY HAVE A MANDATE HERE?
I'LL CALL AND LET THEM DECIDE.
WHAT THIS NEW LEGISLATION DOES
IS ALLOW FOR POLICE UNDER
CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES TO MAKE
THE CALL THEMSELVES.
SO THAT'S... YOU KNOW, THE
EXAMPLE THAT'S BEEN GIVEN HAS
BEEN HAVING TO DO WITH SUICIDE.
RECENTLY THERE'S BEEN A VERY BIG
ISSUE ABOUT NALOXONE, THE OPIOID
ANTIDOTE.
POLICE OFFICERS ARE INCREASINGLY
CARRYING THIS AND USING IT, AND
WHEN THAT FAILS THE SIU HADN'T
BEEN CALLED IN.
THERE WAS A WAR OF WORDS BETWEEN
THE ONTARIO ASSOCIATION OF
CHIEFS OF POLICE AND THE SIU
DIRECTOR TONY LE PARCER RECENTLY
ABOUT THAT, AND NOW THIS
LEGISLATION MAKES SURE THAT THE
POLICE SERVICE DOES NOT HAVE TO
CALL IN THE SIU UNDER THESE
KINDS OF CIRCUMSTANCES.
NOW THIS IS BEING SORT OF
PORTRAYED AS A SLIPPERY SLOPE
BECAUSE BEFORE THIS THE
EXPECTATION WAS THE SIU WOULD BE
CALLED IN NO MATTER WHAT WHEN IT
WAS REASONABLE THAT THEY SHOULD
BE, AND IT'S SORT OF REFERRED TO
AS OVER-NOTIFICATION.
AND NOW I THINK THERE'S THE
INTRODUCTION OF, OKAY, WELL,
UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES THEY
DON'T HAVE TO BE CALLED IN, AND
I THINK WHAT I'M HEARING FROM
SOME OF MY SOURCES IS SOME
CONCERN ABOUT THAT.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Steve says WHAT IS YORE VIEW ON
THE ADVISABILITY OF THESE CHANGES?

Akwasi says I'D PREFER TO SEE THE
OVER-NOTIFICATION RATHER THAN
THE UNDER NOTIFICATION.
I'M THINKING OF A FEW CASES, THE
YOUNG MAN IN OSHAWA ASSAULTED BY
A POLICE OFFICER AND HIS
BROTHER.
THE SIU WERE NOT NOTIFIED
SWIFTLY THERE BY THE...
HEART ATTACKS, I CAN THINK OF A
CASE OF A MAN CHASED BY THE
POLICE AND DIED WHILE IN POLICE
CUSTODY.
THEORETICALLY UNDER THESE
CHANGES, ALTHOUGH THE HEART
ATTACK OCCURRED AS A RESULT OF
THE PURSUIT, THE POLICE WOULD BE
WELL WITHIN THEIR BOUNDS TO SAY,
WELL, WE DON'T HAVE TO CALL THE
SIU IN BECAUSE HE DIED OF A
HEART ATTACK.
IT WASN'T A DIRECT RESULT OF
SOME FORM OF POLICE USE OF
FORCE.

Steve says SO THE ACT IN YOUR
VIEW WOULD BE WORSE OFF AS A
RESULT OF THESE CHANGES?

Akwasi says PRECISELY.

Bruce says WELL, I THINK THE CHIEF HAS
THE ABILITY TO CALL.
IT'S UP TO THE CHIEF TO
DETERMINE THAT, AND I THINK THEY
WILL PROBABLY OVERCALL THAN THEY
WILL UNDER-CALL THE SIU.
THEY STILL HAVE THAT ABILITY AND
THE AUTHORITY TO DO IT, AND I
THINK THEY'LL USE IT.
YOU KNOW, WE TALK ABOUT THAT
CASE IN OSHAWA.
ABSOLUTELY.
BUT ON THE OTHER SIDE, ON THE
FLIP SIDE OF THAT, THERE'S
PROBABLY 15 OR 20 WHERE THE SIU
WAS CALLED WHERE THERE WAS
ABSOLUTELY NO REASON FOR THEM TO
CALL.
6, 9, 12 MONTHS LATER THEY ARE
CLEARING THEM AND SAYING THE
POLICE WEREN'T EVEN ON-SCENE OR
WEREN'T EVEN INVOLVED, AND SO IT
WAS A CASE OF OVER-NOTIFICATION
OF THE SIU DIRECTOR.
THERE'S ONE POINT THAT THE CHIEF
MADE EARLIER WHEN TALKING ABOUT
THE 120 DAYS, ONE PART THAT WAS
MISSED OUT OF THAT WAS AFFECTED
PARTIES OR THE FAMILIES OF THE
AFFECTED PERSON AND ABOUT THE
NOTIFICATION.
SO THE FOUR MONTHS AND THE
TIMELINES AND THE IMPORTANCE OF
ENSURING THAT THE SPEEDY
RESOLUTION AND THOROUGH
INVESTIGATION, AS WE DO AS
POLICE OFFICERS, DAY IN DAY OUT.
I MEAN, WE DO IT FOR PUBLIC
SAFETY.
WE DO IT FOR THE FAMILIES.
WE DO IT BECAUSE IT'S OUR JOB.
AND WE EXPECT THAT SAME OUT OF
THE SIU AND THEIR INVESTIGATORS
TO DO IT IN A TIMELY FASHION.
YOU KNOW, THE PRIME EXAMPLE WAS
THE BARRIE CASE WITH THE
TASERING THAT WAS WITNESSED, AND
EIGHT MONTHS LATER, TO SAY THAT
THE OFFICERS WERE ACTUALLY
HEROES TRYING TO SAVE THAT
UNFORTUNATE, TRAGIC CONSEQUENCES
OF A DEATH OF MR. BROWN.
BUT THE POLICE ACTUALLY TRIED TO
SAVE HIS LIFE, AND WHAT GOT LOST
IN THAT FOR THOSE EIGHT MONTHS
WAS NOBODY THAT... THE CONE OF
SILENCE ON THAT WHOLE
INVESTIGATION.
THE PUBLIC LOSES SUPPORT OF THE
POLICE, YOU KNOW, OUR COMMUNITY
DID.
THERE WAS ACTIVITY THAT WAS...
THERE WAS RALLIES AGAINST THE
POLICE, AND THEY WEREN'T... NOT
AT FAULT IN THAT.
NOBODY KNEW, AND IT'S MOST
UNFORTUNATE FOR THE FAMILY OF
THE PERSON, FOR THE POLICE
OFFICERS AND FOR THE COMMUNITY.
AND WE ALL LOSE TRUST IN THE SIU
WHEN THAT HAPPENS.

Steve says LET ME PUT THAT TO
AKWASI OWUSU-BEMPAH.
IS EIGHT MONTHS TOO LONG FOR ANY
OFFICER UNDER A CLOUD TO HAVE TO
WAIT FOR A VERDICT?

Akwasi says I WOULD AGREE THAT... WELL, I GUESS IT DEPENDS ON THE
PARTICULARS OF THE CASE.
I THINK THIS ALSO COMES DOWN TO
A MATTER OF RESOURCES TOO,
RIGHT?
I THINK WE CAN INCREASE THE
LEVEL OF TRANSPARENCY AND THE
SPEED WITH WHICH INVESTIGATIONS
CAN BE CONDUCTED IF ADEQUATE
RESOURCES ARE PROVIDED TO THE
SIU, AND I KNOW THAT AT THE
MOMENT IT'S NOT... WELL, WE
CONSIDER THE FACT OF SOME OF THE
POLICE SERVICES IN THE PROVINCE,
IT'S NOT A VERY LARGE OPERATION,
AND SO I THINK MORE RESOURCES
COULD BE DIRECTED AT THE
ORGANIZATION TO ALLOW IT TO
CARRY OUT ITS MANDATE IN A
TRANSPARENT AND EFFICIENT
MANNER.

Steve says CAN I JUST UNDERSTAND
THIS, WENDY?
IS THIS TO SAY THAT THE SPECIAL
INVESTIGATIONS UNIT, WHEN IT IS
CALLED IN TO INVESTIGATE
SOMETHING NOW, HAS 120 DAYS,
PERIOD, FULL STOP, TO GET ITS
VERDICT IN PLACE?

Wendy says FROM WHAT I'M HEARING FROM MY
SOURCES, IT'S NOT... THERE'S NO
CLEAR MECHANISM TO ENSURE THAT
IT'S DONE BY 120 DAYS.
THAT'S THE EXPECTATION THAT'S
BEEN SET.
AND NOW THERE'S ANOTHER
EXPECTATION THAT AFTER 30 DAYS
PASSED THAT 120-DAY DEADLINE
THEY HAVE TO REPORT PUBLICLY.
I THINK THAT'S SO HELPFUL.
I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH BRUCE
WHEN IT COMES TO, YOU KNOW, IT'S
NOT JUST THE POLICE OFFICER
THAT'S UNDER STRESS HERE.
THESE ARE FAMILIES WHO ARE
WAITING FOR ANSWERS.

Steve says IT'S EVERYBODY, YEAH.

Wendy says I WILL SAY THAT 120 DAYS IS
NOT GOING TO BE LONG ENOUGH FOR
MORE COMPLEX CASES SUCH AS
DEATH, AND THOSE ARE ARGUABLY
THE MOST HIGH STAKES, AND WE
DON'T WANT THE INDEPENDENT
INVESTIGATOR TO FEEL RUSHED INTO
COMPLETING AND COMING TO A
CONCLUSION ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED
JUST TO MEET SOME DEADLINE.

Steve says GOTCHA.
OKAY, LET'S LOOK AT SOME OF THE
OTHER CHANGES AS WELL.
YOU KNOW WHEN THERE ARE ISSUES
AROUND THE POLICE, THERE HAVE
BEEN BODIES WHOSE RESPONSIBILITY
IT HAS BEEN TO INVESTIGATE SOME
OF THESE THINGS, AND THERE'S
BEEN A CHANGE ON THAT.
SO SHELDON LET'S BRING UP THE
NEXT GRAPHIC AND TALK ABOUT
THOSE, AGAIN, AS WE HAVE A NEW
POLICE SERVICES ACT FOR 2019.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "From O.I.P.R.D. to L.E.C.A. Comprehensive Ontario Police Services Act, 2019."

Steve reads data from the slate and says
THE PROPOSED LEGISLATION WOULD
TRANSFORM THE OFFICE OF THE
INDEPENDENT POLICE REVIEW
DIRECTOR INTO SOMETHING NEW.
IT'S NOW GOING TO BE CALLED THE
LAW ENFORCEMENT COMPLAINTS
AGENCY.
AND ITS RESPONSIBILITIES WOULD
INCLUDE RECEIVING AND SCREENING
PUBLIC COMPLAINTS INVOLVING
POLICE OFFICERS AND ASSIGNING
COMPLAINTS FOR INVESTIGATION TO
ITS POLICE SERVICE OR AN AGENCY
INVESTIGATOR.
NOW LET'S GO AROUND THE TABLE ON
THAT ONE.
CHIEF STEVENSON, WHAT DO WE MAKE
OF THESE CHANGES?

The caption changes to "Who you gonna call?"

Hugh says I THINK IN ESSENCE, IN
PRACTICALITY, I DON'T THINK A
LOT WILL CHANGE ON THE FRONT
LINE IN TERMS OF THE COMPLAINT
PROCESS.
THIS STILL DEMONSTRATES AN
INDEPENDENT BODY TO GO TO WITH
YOUR COMPLAINT ABOUT THE POLICE,
WHICH GIVES, YOU KNOW,
TRANSPARENCY TO THE PROCESS.
IT REMOVES BIASES THAT WE'RE
INVESTIGATING OURSELVES.
AND I GUESS THE THIRD POINT IS
THAT YOUR NEW INSPECTOR GENERAL
THAT REPRESENTS THE GOVERNMENT
CAN MAKE THE DECISION TO SEND
THAT TO ANOTHER SERVICE TO
INVESTIGATE THAT COMPLAINT OR DO
IT THEMSELVES.
SO REALLY AT THE END OF THE DAY,
HOPEFULLY THIS INITIATIVE WILL
IMPROVE THE EFFICIENCY OF
COMPLAINT INVESTIGATIONS,
COMPLAINT CALL TAKING AND
GETTING BACK TO MEMBERS OF THE
PUBLIC AND THE OFFICER.

Steve says IF YOU WANTED TO MAKE
A COMPLAINT ABOUT AN OFFICER
ALLEGEDLY MISTREATING YOU, WOULD
YOU FEEL BETTER UNDER THIS NEW
SYSTEM OR THE PREVIOUS SYSTEM?

Akwasi says THE PREVIOUS ONE MOSTLY
BECAUSE THERE WAS THE IDEA THAT
IT WAS GOING TO BECOME
COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT WITHIN
FIVE YEARS.
ONE OF THE GREATEST WEAKNESSES
OF POLICE OVERSIGHT AND
ACCOUNTABILITY THAT HAS THE
POLICE INVESTIGATING THE POLICE
IS THE VERY FACT THAT IT'S THE
POLICE INVESTIGATING THE POLICE.
AS A MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC, I
DON'T WANT TO HAVE MY COMPLAINT
AGAINST A POLICE OFFICER WHOSE
PART OF A VERY COHESIVE POLICE
CULTURE BEING INVESTIGATED BY
ANOTHER MEMBER OF THAT POLICE
CULTURE, WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE
PART OF THE SAME AGENCY.
SO I WOULD HAVE LIKED TO HAVE
CONTINUE THE CONTINUATION OF
THIS INDEPENDENT BODY TO
INVESTIGATE THESE COMPLAINTS.
I THINK IT'S A SEVERE WEAKNESS
THAT IT'S NOW BEEN REVISED I
WOULD SAY BACKWARD.

Steve says WHY DO YOU THINK THE
GOVERNMENT CHOSE THAT APPROACH?

Akwasi says THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION.
PART OF ME THINKS IT'S, AGAIN,
NOT WANTING THE POLICE TO FEEL
THAT THE PENDULUM SWINGING TOO
FAR IN THE DIRECTION OF THE
COMMUNITY ORIENTATION, IF WE CAN
EVEN CALL IT THAT.
PART OF IT MIGHT ALSO BE
RESOURCES AND EXPEDIENCY AS
WELL.
WE CAN'T FORGET IT'S THE SAME
WITH THE SIU.
POLICE OFFICERS AND POLICE
AGENCIES DO HAVE SKILLS AND
EXPERIENCE IN INVESTIGATION,
RIGHT?
AND SO THEY ARE ABLE TO DO THESE
THINGS IN A WAY THAT MANY OTHER
PUBLIC AGENCIES AREN'T, SO THERE
COULD BE AN EFFICIENCY THING
THERE, BUT I DO THINK PART OF IT
IS ALSO TO APPEASE POLICE
PARTIES.

Steve says I GUESS THAT'S A
REFERENCE TO YOU, PERHAPS.

Bruce says YEAH, AND WITH RESPECT, I
THINK POLICE ARE PROFESSIONAL
ALL THE TIME.
YOU KNOW, THE CHANGE OF THE NAME
TO LAW ENFORCEMENT GOES HAND IN
HAND WITH JUSTICE TULLOCH AND
HIS RECOMMENDATIONS.
2016 THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT
WENT AROUND THE PROVINCE AND DID
PUBLIC AND PRIVATE CONSULTATIONS
THROUGHOUT, HAD TOWN HALL
MEETINGS THROUGHOUT, SAULT STE.
MARIE, SUDBURY, TIMMINS, NORTH
BAY.
POLICE ASSOCIATION ATTENDED
EVERY ONE OF THOSE.
MAIN PURPOSE WAS TO HEAR WHAT
THE PUBLIC HAD TO SAY ABOUT
POLICING AND THEIR PERSPECTIVE
ON IT.
FROM THAT, THERE WAS 1700
RESPONSES, WRITTEN SUBMISSIONS
BACK TO GOVERNMENT.
OUT OF 13.5 MILLION, THAT'S
0.00125 percent.
EVEN IF YOU DO EVERYBODY 18 AND
OVER, IT'S STILL 0.00015 percent OF THE
PUBLIC ACTUALLY HAD CONCERNS
WITH POLICE OR WROTE IN ABOUT
ISSUES IN POLICING.

Steve says WHAT DO YOU INFER FROM THAT?

Bruce says WHAT I'M REFERRING TO IS THE
VAST MAJORITY OF ONTARIO SUPPORT
POLICING, PROFESSIONAL POLICING,
AND BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE
TRANSPARENT, FAIR AND
ACCOUNTABLE.
I WORKED IN PUBLIC COMPLAINTS,
AND I DID SEVERAL INTERNAL
INVESTIGATIONS.
NOBODY WANTS A DIRTY POLICE
OFFICER.
AT ALL.
THE FIRST THING YOU DO, PROBABLY
MORE SO THAN ANYBODY, IS YOU
ENSURE THAT YOU REMOVE SOMEONE
THAT DID A CRIMINAL ACT OR WAS
GUILTY OF MISCONDUCT.
SECOND, I THINK WHAT HELPS IS IT
ALLOWS YOU TO DO TRAINING AND BE
ABLE TO EDUCATE YOUR OFFICERS ON
WEAKNESSES MAYBE WE HAVE IN THE
POLICE SERVICES THAT WE DON'T
RECOGNIZE THAT WE'RE SEEING,
WHETHER IT BE CONTINUOUS OR
ONGOING OR WHETHER IT BE
REPETITIOUS, OF SOME ISSUE THAT
WE HAVE THAT WE'RE NOT DOING.
AND WHETHER THAT'S OUR PUBLIC
RELATIONS AND HOW WE'RE DEALING
WITH THE PUBLIC.
SO I THINK WE'RE EQUIPPED TO DO
IT.
I THINK WE DO IT FAIR.
WE SWORE AN OATH, AND 99.999 percent OF
OFFICERS THAT DO THE JOB UPHOLD
THAT OATH.

Steve says DO YOU THINK IT'S THAT
HIGH A NUMBER?

Bruce says I DO.
I REALLY DO.

Steve says DOES EVERYBODY AT THE
TABLE THINK IT'S THAT HIGH A NUMBER?

Akwasi says I'M NOT CONCERNED JUST ABOUT
INDIVIDUAL OFFICERS.
I'M ALSO CONCERNED ABOUT
SYSTEMIC PRACTICES.
SO ALTHOUGH I AGREE THAT MOST
POLICE... I'M VERY GLAD THAT I
LIVE IN ONTARIO AND IN CANADA
BECAUSE WE HAVE GREAT POLICE
HERE, BUT ISSUES RELATED TO
RACIAL PRO-FILING WERE NOT
BROUGHT FORTH BY POLICE
SERVICES.
ISSUES RELATED TO CARDING WERE
NOT BROUGHT FORTH.
THEY WERE BROUGHT FORTH BY
MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC AND
PEOPLE... JOURNALISTS, GREAT
JOURNALISTS THAT WE HAVE IN THE
MEDIA.
SO ALTHOUGH I DO EXPECT THAT
MOST POLICE OFFICERS GO OUT EACH
DAY AND DO A GOOD JOB AND ARE
THERE TO SERVE THE PUBLIC, I
DON'T THINK ALL OFFICERS ARE,
AND I DON'T THINK ALL POLICE
PRACTICES SERVE ALL MEMBERS OF
THE PUBLIC IN THE SAME WAY, AND
I THINK IT'S THESE TYPES OF
INDEPENDENT OVERSIGHT BODIES
THAT ARE ABLE TO SCREEN FOR
THESE TYPES OF ISSUES AND BRING
THEM TO THE PUBLIC IN A WAY THAT
POLICE AGENCIES, LIKE ANY...
BUREAUCRACY OF PROTECTING THEIR
OWN INTERESTS ARE NOT GOING TO DO.

Bruce says AND I THINK THEY'RE STILL THERE.
I THINK THAT MECHANISM IS STILL
THERE, WHETHER IT BE THE
INSPECTOR GENERAL OR WHETHER IT
BE THE DIRECTOR OF LECA GOING
FORWARD.
THEY WILL STILL HAVE THAT
ABILITY GOING TO DO THAT, TO
SCREEN IN.
I THINK THE ANSWER IS COST.
TO HAVE EVERYTHING IN THE
PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT TO GO
OUTSIDE OF THE POLICE SERVICE
DOING IT WOULD HAVE PROBABLY
QUADRUPLED THE SIZE OF OIPRD OR
LECA AND WOULD HAVE DOUBLED
THE SIU TO BE ABLE
TO DO THE ADDITIONAL
CALLS THEY WERE REQUIRED TO BE
ABLE TO DO THEM IN A TIMELINE.

Steve says I DON'T ASK THE
QUESTION TO BE A SMART ALEK,
WENDY, BUT THE FACT IS THE
POLICE SERVICE IN THUNDER BAY
WAS JUDGED TO HAVE BEEN
SYSTEMICALLY RACIST.

Wendy says RIGHT.

Steve says AND YOU CAN'T GET TO
99.99 percent IF AN ENTIRE POLICE
SERVICE IN THIS PROVINCE IS THUS
JUDGED.
WHAT DO YOU THINK IS CLOSER TO
THE ACCURATE NUMBER?

Wendy says I'M NOT SURE THAT I WANT TO
PUT A NUMBER ON IT EITHER.
I'M WITH AKWASI OWUSU-BEMPAH.
I THINK WE WANT TO BE TALKING
ABOUT SYSTEMIC ISSUES.
ONE THING THAT I THINK IS LOST
IN THE CONVERSATION ABOUT
INVESTIGATIONS INTO COMPLAINTS
THAT GO TO THE OIPRD NOW
RENAMED, THANKFULLY.

Steve says THAT WAS A BAD
ACRONYM, WASN'T IT?

Wendy says IT WAS SO BAD.
AND THEN GET SENT BACK TO THE
POLICE SERVICING QUESTION.
NOW NO DOUBT I HAVE COVERED
CASES WHERE THE INTERNAL
INVESTIGATION HAS PRODUCED, YOU
KNOW, CRIMINAL CHARGES.
THERE ARE REAL PROFESSIONAL
INVESTIGATIONS THAT GET DONE BY
THAT UNIT.
I KNOW THAT FOR SURE, BUT
WHAT... SENDING THE COMPLAINT
BACK TO THAT INITIAL
ORGANIZATION DOES IS CREATE A
PERCEPTION OF BIAS.
AND WHETHER THAT'S FAIR OR NOT,
IT MAY GO BACK INTO THE
COMMUNITY THAT'S AFFECTED BY IT,
AND IF THERE'S A DECISION TO NOT
PURSUE, YOU KNOW, A COMPLAINT
AND THERE'S A DECISION THAT
FINDS, OKAY, THERE'S ACTUALLY NO
WRONGDOING HERE, NOTHING TO SAY,
YOU KNOW, THE COMPLAINANT OR
THE COMMUNITY THAT COMPLAINANT
COMES FROM RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY
MAY CONCLUDE THAT THE FIX WAS IN
FROM THE BEGINNING.
SO WHAT AN INDEPENDENT
INVESTIGATION DOES IS PROVIDE
SOME REASSURANCE THAT THAT
COMPLAINT WILL BE EFFECTIVELY
AND INDEPENDENTLY INVESTIGATED.

Steve says CHIEF, EVEN THE MOST
PROFESSIONALLY DONE
INVESTIGATION BY POLICE OF
POLICE, CAN IT REALLY EVER GET
OUT FROM UNDER THE IMPRESSION,
AS WENDY SUGGESTS, THAT IT'S NOT
COMPLETELY KOSHER BECAUSE COPS
JUST CAN'T BE... COPS AT THE END
OF THE DAY CAN'T INVESTIGATE
OTHER COPS AND BE SEEN TO BE
DOING 100 percent PURE JOB.
IS THAT A FAIR OBSERVATION?

Hugh says WELL, FROM MY 31 YEARS IN
POLICING, I'VE SEEN VERY FEW IF
ANY SCENARIOS WHERE A POLICE
INTERNAL INVESTIGATION SHOWED
BIAS BECAUSE THEY WERE POLICE.
IN FACT, I WOULD GO EVEN
FURTHER, AND AS A DUTY OFFICER
FOR MANY YEARS IN THE OPP, I
KNOW THAT IF AN OFFICER WAS
INVOLVED IN AN ALLEGATION, THE
ORGANIZATION WOULD GO EXTRA
FURTHER IN ENSURING THAT THE
BIAS WAS LIFTED AND A THOROUGH
INVESTIGATION WAS DONE.
WE WOULD EVEN GO SO FAR AS TO
HAVE EXTERNAL INVESTIGATORS
BROUGHT IN THAT HAD NO KNOWLEDGE
OF THE PEOPLE OR THE SCENARIO.
YOU KNOW WHAT, TO INFER THAT WE
CAN'T INVESTIGATE OUR OWN, I
UNDERSTAND YOUR ARGUMENT ON BIAS
AND PERCEPTION.
AND YES POLICING IS IN THE
PERCEPTION INDUSTRY.
BUT PRACTICE AND ACTUARIAL CASES
WILL DEMONSTRATE THE FACT THAT
YOU DO GET AUTONOMY AND
INDEPENDENCE.
AND IF I MAY, I THINK WE HAVE TO
LOOK AT TRUST IN POLICING, THAT
NO POLICE SERVICE CAN POLICE A
COMMUNITY WITHOUT THE TRUST OF
THEIR COMMUNITY, WITHOUT THE
TRUST OF THEIR ASSOCIATION,
WITHOUT THE TRUST OF MENTAL
HEALTH ORGANIZATIONS, VICTIM
SERVICE AGENCIES, THE CROWN
ATTORNEY.

Steve says IT ALL HINGES ON THAT,
DOESN'T IT?

Hugh says TO BE BLUNT, I THINK THIS
LEGISLATION IS TURNING THE
CORNER A LITTLE BIT, IN BABY
STEPS, TO SHOW THAT LET'S GIVE
THE POLICE A LITTLE BIT MORE SUPPORT.
AND I HAVE WORKED FOR THREE
POLICE SERVICES, STEVE, AND I
HAVE SEEN PROFESSIONALISM IN ALL.
I'VE SEEN ONE-OFFS AND BRUCE AND
I BOTH KNOW THAT, AND THE
REPORTERS AND THE ACADEMICS, BUT
OVERALL IF WE LOOK AT
PERCENTAGES, DO A POLL OF PUBLIC
APPRECIATION FOR POLICE AND
YOU'LL SEE THAT THEY ARE ALL
PLUS 90 percent.

Steve says WELL AHEAD OF
JOURNALISTS, I CAN TELL YOU THAT.
SORRY, WENDY.

[Laughter]

Steve says WE GOT TO WEAR THAT.
WE GOT A FEW MINUTES LEFT.
LET'S DO ONE MORE THING HERE.
YOU GUYS ALL KNOW PETER STOLY
NOW WITH DELOITTE.
WE TALKED ABOUT WHAT POLICE
FUNCTIONS EITHER OUGHT TO BE OR
OUGHT NOT TO BE OUTSOURCED, AND
HE HAD THIS TO SAY ABOUT THAT.
SHELDON, THE CLIP, PLEASE.

A clip plays on screen with the caption "April 26, 2018. Peter Sloly."
In the clip, Peter talks to Steve and other guests in the studio.

Peter, in his forties, clean-shaven, says
TOUCHED ON PRIVATE SECTOR A
COUPLE OF TIMES.
REGARDLESS OF THE CHANGE IN
BILL, PUBLIC SECTOR IN GENERAL
POLICING I WOULD SAY EVEN MORE
SPECIFICALLY NEEDS TO HAVE MORE
PUBLIC-PRIVATE PARTNERSHIPS,
REGARDLESS OF HOW YOU SEE
WHETHER IT'S LOST JOBS TO THE
PUBLIC SECTOR OR LESS MEMBERSHIP
DUES COMING INTO THE ASSOCIATION
OR A CHIEF WHO FEELS THAT HE OR
SHE MAY LOSE CONTROL OVER THEIR
WORKFORCE, IF YOU LOOK AT THE
ELEMENT OF CYBER IN ALL THE
CRIMES, IF YOU LOOK AT THE
MODERNIZATION, THE NEED TO
LEVERAGE TECHNOLOGY, THE NEED
FOR SPECIALIZATION AROUND
PSYCHOLOGICAL SERVICES, HEALTH
SERVICES IN DESIGNING AND
DELIVERING THESE NEW COMMUNITY
WELL-BEING PLANS, THE POLICE
THEMSELVES AREN'T STAFFED FOR
THAT LEVEL OF EXPERTISE.
TO TO BE A MODERN POLICE SERVICE
YOU HAVE TO HAVE MODERN
PARTNERSHIPS.
COME WILL INCLUDE CONTRACTING
SERVICES THAT YOU DON'T HAVE THE
HR RESOURCES OR THE CAPABILITY
TO ACTUALLY PROVIDE.

The clip ends and the caption changes to "Outsourcing."

Steve says BRUCE, YOUR TAKE ON THAT?

Bruce says WELL, A COUPLE ISSUES THAT I
SEE WITH IT, AND I THINK THE
FIRST ONE GOES BACK TO IS
CORRECTIONS CANADA IN 2001 TO
2003 OPENED TWO JAILS,
PENETANGUISHENE AND LINDSAY.
ONE WAS PRIVATE, ONE WAS PUBLIC.
AND OUT OF THAT, WITHIN THREE TO
SIX YEARS, MONTE KWINTER AT THE
TIME SWITCHED IT BACK TO PUBLIC.
THERE WAS NO COST SAVINGS.
THERE WAS NO... THERE WAS WORSE
HEALTH AND SAFETY RECORD FOR
BOTH INMATES AND STAFF THERE.
THE SANITARY CONDITIONS WERE NOT
UP TO PAR AS THEY WERE.
IT'S FOR-PROFIT POLICING, AND
THAT'S A CONCERN THAT I HAVE
WHEN WE TALK ABOUT KEEPING
POLICE PUBLIC.
THERE'S NO OVERSIGHT OR LACK OF
IT IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR.
SO I TOTALLY AGREE ABOUT
PARTNERSHIPS IN IT.
I THINK WE'RE SEEING IT WITH OUR
COAST PROGRAMS, WITH MENTAL
HEALTH EXPERTS WHO ARE TRAINED
AND EXPERTS AND PROFESSIONALS
AND ABLE TO DEAL WITH THOSE
CALLS.
WHAT IS IT, ONE IN SIX... LESS
THAN ONE IN SIX CALLS NOW HAS A
MENTAL HEALTH COMPONENT IN THE
CALLS THAT THE POLICE ARE GOING
TO.
SO HAVING A PROFESSIONAL WITH
YOU WILL HELP THAT.
THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE TRAINED
WITH.

Steve says I GOT ABOUT A MINUTE
AND A HALF TO GO.
I WANT TO HEAR YOU ON THIS TOO.

Akwasi says I DON'T WANT TO SEE THE
OUTSOURCING OF CORE POLICE
FUNCTIONS.
I AGREE WITH PETER THAT WE DO
NEED TO TAP EXPERTISE WHERE
NECESSARY.
I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE
CIVILIANIZING OF MANY POLICE
FUNCTIONS, RIGHT, WHICH WILL
BRING DOWN COSTS.
WE DON'T NEED SWORN OFFICERS
PERFORMING FUNCTIONS THAT
SOMEONE WITHOUT A BADGE AND A
GUN CAN DO, AND IN RELATION TO
SOME OF THE CYBERCRIMES AND
THINGS LIKE THAT, THAT IS WHERE
WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO GET PEOPLE
WITH A CERTAIN SET OF EXPERTISE,
WHETHER THEY WORK DIRECTLY FOR A
POLICE AGENCY PERMANENTLY OR
BROUGHT IN ON CONTRACT TO
FULFILL SPECIFIC NEEDS DO THOSE
ROLES AND FUNCTIONS.
DO SOME MORE EFFECTIVELY AND
PERHAPS MORE COST EFFICIENTLY.

The caption changes to "Producer: Colin Ellis, @ColinEllis81."

Steve says OUR FRIEND FROM UTM
GETS THE LAST WORD ON THIS PROGRAM.
THANKS, EVERYBODY, FOR COMING
INTO TVO TONIGHT FOR A GREAT
DISCUSSION.
THANKS SO MUCH.

The guests say THANK YOU.

Watch: Police Oversight in Ontario