Transcript: What Animals Think and Feel | Mar 05, 2019

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and spotted purple tie.

A caption on screen reads "What do animals think and feel? @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says CENTURIES AGO, ANIMALS WERE
THOUGHT TO BE UNFEELING
AUTOMATONS.
THE GROWING SCIENCE OF ANIMAL
COGNITION IS SHATTERING THAT
ASSUMPTION.
AND AS EVIDENCE OF COMPLEX
EMOTIONAL LIVES MOUNTS, IT
PROMPTS EVER BIGGER QUESTIONS
ABOUT HOW HUMANS INTERACT WITH
CREATURES BIG AND SMALL.
HERE TO CONSIDER SOME OF THOSE,
IN WASHINGTON, D.C., ROSS
ANDERSEN, SENIOR EDITOR AT "THE
ATLANTIC" MAGAZINE.

Ross is in his forties, clean-shaven and bald. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt and burgundy tie.

Steve continues IN MANCHESTER, NEW HAMPSHIRE, SY MONTGOMERY, NATURE WRITER AND
AUTHOR OF MORE THAN 20 BOOKS
INCLUDING, "THE SOUL OF AN
OCTOPUS," AND "THE GOOD GOOD PIG."

Sy is in her sixties, with long curly brown hair. She's wearing a colourful striped sweater and a pendant necklace.

Steve continues AND HERE IN OUR STUDIO, DAPHNA
BUCHSBAUM, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR
OF PSYCHOLOGY AND PRINCIPAL
INVESTIGATOR AT THE CANINE
COGNITION LAB AT THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO...

Daphna is in her early forties, with chin-length curly brown hair. She's wearing blue-framed glasses, a black blazer over a dark green shirt, and a pendant necklace.

Steve continues NOAM MILLER,
ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF
PSYCHOLOGY AND BIOLOGY AT
WILFRID LAURIER UNIVERSITY...

Noam is in his mid forties, with short curly brown hair and a goatee. He's wearing a gray shirt.

Steve continues AND KRISTIN ANDREWS, YORK RESEARCH CHAIR IN ANIMAL MINDS AND
PROFESSOR OF PHILOSOPHY AT YORK UNIVERSITY.

Kristin is in her forties, with long straight silver hair. She's wearing a blue blazer over a striped shirt.

Steve continues AND IT'S GREAT TO HAVE EVERYBODY BOTH HERE IN OUR STUDIO AND
POINTS BEYOND FOR WHAT I'M SURE
IS GOING TO BE A FASCINATING DISCUSSION.
ROSS, I'M KICKING OFF WITH YOU
BECAUSE YOU DID AN ARTICLE, A
VERY NICE LENGTHY PIECE FOR THE
MARCH ISSUE OF THE ATLANTIC, AND
I WANT TO JUST PULL A QUOTE FROM
THAT TO GET US STARTED HERE.
HERE WE GO.

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Animals are not robots." The quote reads "THIS IDEA THAT ANIMALS ARE CONSCIOUS WAS LONG UNPOPULAR IN THE WEST, BUT IT HAS LATELY FOUND FAVOUR AMONG SCIENTISTS WHO STUDY ANIMAL COGNITION. AND NOT JUST THE OBVIOUS CASES -primates, dogs, elephants, whales and others. SCIENTISTS ARE NOW FINDING EVIDENCE OF AN INNER LIFE IN ALIEN-SEEMING CREATURES THAT EVOLVED ON EVER-MORE DISTANT LIMBS OF LIFE'S TREE. FOR MANY SCIENTISTS, THE resonant MYSTERY IS NO LONGER WHICH ANIMALS ARE CONSCIOUS BUT WHICH ARE NOT."
Quoted from Ross Andersen, The Atlantic. March 2019.

Steve says START US OFF, ROSS.
WELL BEFORE THE ERA OF JANE
GOODALL, IF I CAN PUT IT THAT
WAY, HOW DID WE IN THE WEST
UNDERSTAND THE ABILITY OF
ANIMALS TO THINK AND FEEL?

The caption changes to "Ross Andersen. The Atlantic."
Then, it changes again to "From Descartes to Goodall to present day."

Ross says WELL, IT'S A BIT OF AN UNEVEN
RECORD.
SO IT'S HARD TO ACCOUNT FOR, YOU
KNOW, SORT OF IN A SINGLE
SENTENCE HOW EVERYONE IN THE
WEST THOUGHT, BUT GENERALLY
THERE WAS A SENSE COMING OUT OF
THE KIND OF JUDEO CHRISTIAN
TRADITION THAT ANIMALS WERE SORT
OF MUCH LOWER ON KIND OF THE
TOTEM POLE OF BEING OR THE CHAIN
OF BEINGS AND HUMAN BEINGS.
AND SO AS A RESULT YOU HAD
THINKERS LIKE DECART WOULD OFTEN
REFER TO ANIMALS AS AUTO-MATONS,
KIND OF THE WAY WE WOULD
THINK ABOUT SELF-DRIVING CARS.
ABLE TO DO REALLY COMPLEX
BEHAVIOURS, BUT REALLY OPERATING
ON KIND OF A STIMULUS AND
RESPONSE BASIS, NOTHING GOING ON INSIDE.

Steve says THERE IS OBVIOUSLY A
GROWING SCIENCE OF ANIMAL
COGNITION NOW, SO HOW MUCH OF
THAT BELIEF THAT YOU JUST
DESCRIBED HAS NOW BEEN CALLED
INTO QUESTION?

Ross says A GREAT DEAL, AND I'M GLAD WE
HAVE SOME ACTUAL EXPERTS TODAY
WITH YOU IN THE STUDIO WHO CAN
SHED A BIT MORE LIGHT ON THAT.
BUT YEAH, IT'S MY IMPRESSION
THAT THE... OVER THE LAST DECADE
CERTAINLY AFTER THE SECOND WORLD
WAR WHERE YOU HAVE LOTS OF
REALLY RIGOROUS EXPERIMENTATION
AROUND ANIMALS, ANIMAL BEHAVIOUR
BEING RECORDED IN MUCH GREATER
VOLUMES AND IN MUCH GREATER
DETAIL, PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO
THINK THAT, IN FACT, ANIMALS DO
HAVE MINDS THAT, WHILE ARE NOT
NEARLY AS KIND OF RICH AND
COMPLEX AS OURS, THEY ARE AT
LEAST ON RELATIONSHIP TO THEM.

Steve says SY, I WONDER IF YOU CAN
FOLLOW UP ON THAT.
TELL US HOW YOU BELIEVE I GUESS
SINCE JANE GOODALL AND GOING
FORWARD HOW MUCH PROGRESS HAVE
WE MADE IN UNDERSTANDING HOW
ANIMALS THINK SINCE THEN?

The caption changes to "Sy Montgomery. Author, 'The soul of an octopus.'"

Sy says I THINK THERE'S BEEN A REVOLUTION.
WHEN JANE GOODALL WENT INTO THE
FIELD IN TANZANIA TO STUDY THE
CHIMPANZEES IN 1960, HER INITIAL
REPORTS WERE NOT PUBLISHED, EVEN
THOUGH THEY WERE ABSOLUTELY
TOTALLY EXCITING AND FOLKS SAID
IT REDEFINED HUMAN... WHAT WAS HUMAN.
SHE FOUND, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT
CHIMPANZEES COULD USE TOOLS, AND
IT WAS THOUGHT THAT ONLY HUMAN
BEINGS COULD USE TOOLS.
BUT THE REASON NO ONE WANTED TO
PUBLISH HER WORK WAS THAT SHE
NAMED HER ANIMALS AND RECOGNIZED
THEM AS INDIVIDUALS.
PRIOR TO THIS, YOU WERE SUPPOSED
TO NUMBER THESE ANIMALS LIKE ROCKS.
THEY WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE INDIVIDUALS.
TODAY ALMOST EVERY ETHOLOGIST
WHO IS STUDYING ANIMAL BEHAVIOUR
IN THE WILD, THE VERY FIRST
THING THEY DO IS THEY GO OUT AND
THEY FIGURE OUT WHICH
INDIVIDUALS ARE WHO.
YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THE
INDIVIDUALITY OF ANIMALS
BECAUSE, AS SHE HAS SHOWN, AND
OTHERS AFTER HER, EVERY
INDIVIDUAL ANIMAL CAN HAVE AS
MUCH OF AN EFFECT ON HIS OR HER
COMMUNITY AS EVERY INDIVIDUAL PERSON.

Steve says HMM.
DAPHNA, WHAT WOULD YOU ADD TO
THAT IN TERMS OF CHARACTERIZING
OUR ENHANCED UNDERSTANDING OF THIS NOW?

The caption changes to "Daphna Buchsbaum. University of Tornto."

Daphna says YEAH, WELL, I THINK THAT SY
MENTIONED A REVOLUTION, AND I
THINK THAT ONE THING THAT WE CAN
TALK ABOUT IS THAT IN SOME SENSE
THERE REALLY WAS A REVOLUTION.
SO IN THE 1950S, SO PRIOR TO
THAT THERE WAS BEHAVIOUR...
YOU'VE HEARD OF SKINNER AND THE
KIND OF DOMINANT APPROACH IN
PSYCHOLOGY WAS TO STUDY BOTH
ANIMALS AND IN FACT PEOPLE AS
KIND OF INPUT-OUTPUT BLACK
BOXES.
YOU GOT SOME STIMULUS AND YOU
GENERATED SOME RESPONSE TO IT,
AND EITHER WHO CARED OR YOU
COULDN'T STUDY WHAT WAS
HAPPENING ON THE INSIDE.
AND IN THE 1950S, WHAT HAPPENED
WAS THAT CHOMSKI AND MINUTESKI
AND OTHERS STARTED WHAT'S BEEN
CALLED THE COGNITIVE REVOLUTION,
AND THAT REALLY BROUGHT TO
PROMINENCE IN SCIENCE SORT OF
LEGITIMACY FOR STUDYING INTERNAL
MENTAL THOUGHTS AND
REPRESENTATIONS AS KIND OF A
CRITICAL PART OF UNDERSTANDING
HUMAN BEHAVIOUR, AND NOW ALSO
ANIMAL BEHAVIOUR.
AND SO I THINK THERE HAS BEEN A
REALLY BIG CHANGE OVER THAT TIME
PERIOD.

Steve says KRISTIN, WHAT WOULD YOU ADD?

The caption changes to "Kristin Andrews. York University."

Kristin says I THINK THAT THE COGNITIVE
REVOLUTION AND THEN THE JANE
GOODALL'S APPROACH OF YOU MIGHT
SAY AN ANTHROPOLOGICAL LENS ON
OTHER ANIMALS IS TODAY REALLY
INTEGRATING IN A WAY THAT'S
SUPER-INTERESTING.
SO JANE GOODALL WENT OUT AND
LIVED WITH THE CHIMPANZEES.
SHE KIND OF SAW WHAT THEY WERE
DOING FROM THE INSIDE.
AND SHE ALLOWED US TO ASK
QUESTIONS ABOUT ANIMALS THAT WE
HADN'T BEEN ASKING BEFORE.
LIKE DO THE OBSERVATIONS ABOUT
THEM USING THEM TOOLS LED TO
OBSERVATIONS THAT CHIMPANZEES
WERE MAKING TOOLS WHICH LED TO
OBSERVATIONS THAT CHIMPANZEES
WERE LEARNING FROM ONE ANOTHER
HOW TO MAKE TOOLS, WHICH LED US
TO SEE THAT THERE IS CULTURE IN
CHIMPANZEES AND MAYBE EVEN
CUMULATIVE CULTURE.
AND SO THESE SORTS OF
OBSERVATIONS, WHAT'S THE
COGNITIVE REVOLUTION AND THE
EXPERIMENTAL APPROACH IN LABS,
ALLOWED US TO GO AND ASK
QUESTIONS ABOUT OTHER SPECIES.
ARE OTHER SPECIES ENGAGED IN
SOCIAL LEARNING?
AND SO WE NOW... AND WE KNOW
TODAY SOME WORK IS THAT EVEN THE
BUMBLEBEE ENGAGES IN SOCIAL
LEARNING AND ENGAGES IN SOCIAL
LEARNING SUCH THAT THERE MIGHT
BE SOMETHING THAT LOOKS LIKE
CUMULATIVE CULTURE BECAUSE THEY
ARE IMPROVING ON WHAT THEY ARE
LEARNING IN THESE TECHNOLOGIES.

Steve says IN WHICH CASE, NOAM,
LET ME TURN THE QUESTION A
LITTLE MORE FOR YOU.
DO YOU THINK, EVEN WITH THE
ADVANCES THAT YOU'VE ALL MADE IN
THE LAST NUMBER OF DECADES, DO
YOU FEEL WE HAVE ANYTHING CLOSE
TO A COMPLETE PICTURE OF
UNDERSTANDING HOW ANIMALS THINK
AND FEEL?

The caption changes to "Noam Miller. Wildrid Laurier University."

Noam says SO I DON'T THINK SO.
I DON'T THINK WE'RE CLOSE TO A
COMPLETE UNDERSTANDING OF ANY OF
THESE THINGS.
I THINK THERE ARE SOME VERY
INTERESTING TRENDS THAT HAVE
BEEN EMERGING OVER THE LAST
COUPLE OF DECADES.
TWO IN PARTICULAR, ONE IS THAT
WE'VE GOTTEN A LOT BETTER
RECENTLY AT EXPLORING AND
OBSERVING THE MECHANISMS INSIDE
THE BRAIN OF WHAT'S HAPPENING.
AND JUST NOW ARE STARTING TO BE
ABLE TO ACTUALLY, IN SOME CASES,
DRAW A LINE FROM EVENTS THAT ARE
HAPPENING IN THE BRAIN THROUGH
TO ACTUAL BEHAVIOURS AND THEN TO
ACTUAL COGNITIVE SKILLS.
AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT IS,
AGAIN, STILL RELATIVELY IN ITS
INFANCY BUT IS DEFINITELY
DEVELOPING A LOT.
THE OTHER THING THAT I THINK
WE'VE BEEN REALIZING RECENTLY
OVER THE PAST COUPLE DECADES IS
THAT THE OLD APPROACH THAT
DAPHNA DESCRIBED MOSTLY SAID
LET'S JUST LOOK AT... LET'S FIND
GENERAL RULES THAT WE CAN APPLY
TO ALL KINDS OF ANIMALS AND THEN
JUST COMPARE ACROSS A BUNCH OF
DIFFERENT SPECIES.
AND WHAT WE'VE BEEN REALIZING IS
THAT IT'S OFTEN MORE HELPFUL AND
DEFINITELY MORE PRODUCTIVE TO
ACTUALLY LOOK AT THE
DIFFERENT... THE VARIOUS
COGNITIVE ABILITIES THAT ANIMALS
HAVE EVOLVED TO SOLVE THE
CHALLENGES PRESENTED BY THEIR
ENVIRONMENTS.
WHICH ARE OFTEN VERY DIFFERENT
ACROSS DIFFERENT SPECIES.
AND THAT APPROACH HAS REALLY, AS
KRISTIN AGAIN WAS MENTIONING,
HAS OPENED UP... SKILLS THAT WE
WOULD NOT HAVE SEEN OR KNOWN TO LOOK FOR.

Steve says LET'S ASK SHELDON TO
ROLL SOME FOOTAGE HERE.
WE WANT TO SHOW YOU SOME QUITE
EXTRAORDINARY FOOTAGE.

A clip plays in which a chimpanzee lies curled up into a ball inside a cage with hay.

Steve says THIS IS MAMA.
SHE IS A 59-YEAR-OLD CHIMPANZEE
AND SHE IS ON HER DEATH BED.
SHE REFUSED FOOD AND WATER.
SHE BARELY MOVED, AND THEN SHE
WAS VISITED BY AN OLD FRIEND, A
BIOLOGIST BY THE NAME OF JAN VAN
HOOF, AND HERE WAS THE REACTION
AFTER SHE SAW HIM.
SHELDON, ROLE IT, PLEASE.

In the clip, a man in his late fifties approaches Mama and caresses her on the back.
Mama smiles and stretches out a hand to touch Jan's, then squeals.

Jan nods and says YEAH!
YEAH, YEAH.

Mama caresses Jan and continues to squeal excitedly. Jan leans closer to her and they hug.

The clip ends.

The caption changes to "Complex emotional lives."

Steve says NOW WE SHOULD JUST
EXPLAIN FOR THOSE WHO ARE
LISTENING ON PODCAST AND WHO DID
NOT GET TO SEE THAT, MAMA IS
COMPLETELY INERT AT THE BEGINNING.
SHE THEN SEES HER OLD FRIEND,
THE BIOLOGIST, AND SHE BECOMES
COMPLETELY ANIMATED.

The caption changes to "Subscribe to The Agenda Podcast: tvo.org/theagenda."

Steve continues SHE BEGINS HUGGING HIM, STROKING
HIS FACE, PATTING THE BACK OF HIM.
IT'S QUITE EXTRAORDINARY
FOOTAGE.
NOW THAT'S A CHAMP ZEE.
SY, YOU SPENT SOME TIME WITH A
GIANT PACIFIC OCTOPUS.
CAN YOU TELL US WHAT YOU LEARNED
A LITTLE BIT ABOUT, YES, THE
EMOTIONAL LIFE OF AN OCTOPUS?

The caption changes to "Sy Montgomery. Author, 'The good good pig.'"

Sy says WELL, WHEN I SAW THAT
FOOTAGE, IT FELT VERY FAMILIAR
BECAUSE I HAD ALMOST THAT
IDENTICAL EXPERIENCE WITH AN
OCTOPUS NAMED OCTAVIA.
I HAD KNOWN HER SINCE SHE
ARRIVED AT NEW ENGLAND AQUARIUM
AT BOSTON.
WE HAD BECOME GOOD FRIENDS.
IT IS KNOWN THAT OCTOPUSES
RECOGNIZE INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE
BECAUSE THEY'VE DONE EXPERIMENTS
SHOWING THIS, AND WE WERE GOOD
FRIENDS UNTIL SHE LAID EGGS.
WHEN AN OCTOPUS LAYS EGGS, THEY
SPEND THE REST OF THEIR LIVES
JUST CARING FOR AND GUARDING
THOSE EGGS.
FOR OCTAVIA, THEY WERE NOT
FERTILE EGGS.
THERE WAS NO MR. OCTOPUS, SO 10
MONTHS WENT BY THAT SHE DID NOT
INTERACT WITH ME, AND THESE
ANIMALS ONLY LIVE THREE TO FIVE
YEARS.
SO 10 MONTHS APART IS A LONG
TIME.
IT'S LIKE DECADES.
WHEN SHE GOT OLD AND SICK AND
BILL MURPHY, THE AQUARIST,
DECIDED SHE SHOULD BE MOVED OFF
EXHIBIT TO A QUIETER, DARKER
AREA, I WENT IN TO SAY GOOD-BYE
TO HER BECAUSE I KNEW SHE WAS
DYING, AND WHEN I LIFTED UP THE
LID TO HER TANK, SHE FLOATED UP
TO SEE ME, EVEN THOUGH SHE WAS
SICK.
SHE WAS NEAR THE END OF HER
LIFE.
THIS WASN'T AN EASY THING FOR
HER TO DO.
AND SHE REACHED HER ARMS UP OUT
OF THE WATER AND COVERED MY
HANDS AND ARMS WITH HER SUCKERS
AND LOOKED INTO MY FACE.
AND THESE ANIMALS DON'T EAT
DURING THE TIME THAT THEY'RE
INCUBATING THEIR EGGS, SO I
OFFERED HER A FISH.
SHE JUST TOOK THE FISH, DROPPED
IT TO THE BOTTOM.
SHE WASN'T INTERESTED IN THE FISH.
SHE CAME UP TO GREET ME.

Steve says SY, WHEN THIS
HAPPENED, WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?

Sy looks emotional and says WELL, YOU KNOW, I WAS VERY
WRAPPED UP IN THE MOMENT BECAUSE
THIS WAS MY FRIEND, AND NOT
EVERYONE HAS A FRIEND WHO IS A
MOLLUSC, YOU KNOW.
WE'RE SEPARATED FROM THESE
ANIMALS BY HALF A BILLION YEARS.
THEY ARE RELATED TO CLAMS AND
SNAILS.
NOW CHIMPANZEE IS SO CLOSELY
RELATED TO A HUMAN, YOU CAN GET
A BLOOD TRANSFUSION FROM A
CHIMPANZEE, BUT AN OCTOPUS, THIS
IS AN ALMOST ALIEN FORM OF
CREATURE.
SO WHAT STRUCK ME AS I THOUGHT
ABOUT THIS MOMENT, OCTAVIA AND
ME TOGETHER, WAS HOW DIFFERENT
WE WERE.
YOU KNOW, SHE HAS NO BONES.
SHE CAN POUR HERSELF THROUGH A
TINY OPENING.
SHE TASTES WITH HER SKIN.
SHE HAS THREE HEARTS AND BLUE
BLOOD, CAN CHANGE COLOUR AND
SHAPE.
AND YET I HAVE A FRIEND WHO IS
AN OCTOPUS.
AND WE KNEW EACH OTHER.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT AFFECTION FELT
LIKE TO HER, BUT SHE CLEARLY
WANTED TO BE WITH ME AND SEE ME
AND CHOSE TO DO THAT WHEN SHE
WAS TIRED AND SICK AND DYING.
AND THAT'S EXTREMELY MEANINGFUL TO ME.

Steve says AMAZING.
DAPHNA, GIVE ME ONE OF YOUR
FAVOURITE EXAMPLES OF... THAT
MAY GIVE US SOME INSIGHT INTO
THE EMOTIONAL WINDOW OF ANIMALS.

The caption changes to "Daphna Buchsmaum. Canine Cognition Lab."

Daphna says YEAH, WELL, THERE'S SO MANY
INTERESTING THINGS TO TALK ABOUT
THAT I CAN BRING UP, I GUESS,
ACTUALLY TWO THINGS.
SO I DO RESEARCH ON DOGS, AS I
THINK YOU MENTIONED, THAT DOG
OWNERS VERY FREQUENTLY ASK ME
ABOUT.
SO ONE OF THEM IS DOES MY DOG
REALLY LOVE ME.
THAT COMES UP ALL THE TIME,
RIGHT?
OR HAVE YOU JUST LEARNED LIKE HE
ACTS LIKE HE LOVES ME AND JUMPS
ALL OVER ME AND ACTS LIKE HE'S
GLAD TO SEE ME, HE'S GOING TO
GET A LOT OF TREATS, RIGHT?
TO THAT ONE I THINK WE CAN SAY
THAT THE RESEARCH SUGGESTS THAT
YOUR DOG REALLY DOES LOVE YOU
AND HAVE AN EMOTIONAL ATTACHMENT
TO YOU.
THERE'S A LOT OF RESEARCH
SHOWING THAT DOGS SHOW
ATTACHMENT BEHAVIOUR TO THEIR
OWNERS THAT IS VERY SIMILAR THAT
CHILDREN SHOW TO PARENTS, AND
THAT THEY ACT DIFFERENTLY
TOWARDS OWNERS THAN OTHER
STRANGERS OR EVEN OTHER FAMILIAR
PEOPLE.
AND THERE'S ALSO BEGINNING TO BE
EVIDENCE THAT THEIR HORMONAL
REACTIONS, RIGHT, THE UNDERLYING
FUNCTIONS GENERATING THOSE
EMOTIONS MAYBE SIMILAR.
SO YOU MAY HAVE HEARD OXYTOCIN
AS A BONDING HORMONE.
DOGS ACTUALLY GENERATE OXYTOCIN
WHEN THEY ARE LOOKING
LOVINGLY INTO THEIR OWNERS EYES,
AND THE OWNER GENERATE OXYTOCIN
IN RESPONSE.
THE OTHER ONE OWNERS ASK ME IS
WHEN I KNOW MY DOG HAS DONE
SOMETHING BAD AND I COME HOME,
HE LOOKS SO GUILTY.
HE KNOWS.
HE KNOWS.
AND THERE'S EVEN A WHOLE SET OF
YouTube MEMES ABOUT THIS, PEOPLE
FILMING THEIR GUILTY DOGS.
A REALLY GREAT RESEARCHER WHO
HAS WRITTEN SOME BOOKS AS WELL
WHO STUDIES DOGS WANTED TO
INVESTIGATE THIS, AND WE HAD A
STRONG INTUITION WHEN OUR DOG IS
GUILTY, ARE THEY?
SHE SET UP A VERY SIMPLE
EXPERIMENT WHERE DOGS WERE GIVEN
THE OPPORTUNITY TO STEAL FOOD,
AND THEY EITHER DID OR DIDN'T.
AND THEN SHE EITHER TOLD THEIR
OWNERS EITHER WAY THAT THE DOG
STOLE FOOD OR NOT.
AND IT TURNS OUT THAT WHEN THE
DOG LOOKS GUILTY IS WHEN YOU
THINK THE DOG STOLE FOOD.
AND SO WHEN YOU'RE PROBABLY
ACTUALLY SEEING IS A LOT OF
APPEASEMENT AND SUBMISSION BEHAVIOUR.
THE DOG IS LOOKING AT YOU AND
GOING I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE
MAD ABOUT, BUT YOU'RE REALLY
MAD, AND I'M NOT EVEN SAYING
THAT DOGS CAN'T FEEL GUILT, BUT
THAT'S A CASE WHERE OUR HUMAN
PERCEPTION OF WHAT'S GOING ON
WITH THEM ISN'T ALWAYS ACCURATE
TO WHAT'S ACTUALLY GOING ON FOR THEM.

Steve says THAT IS REALLY SOMETHING.
ROSS, YOU GOT A FAVOURITE STORY
YOU WANT TO SHARE?

Ross says I DO, ACTUALLY.
EVEN BEFORE I WROTE THIS PIECE I
HAD OCCASION TO DO A PRETTY DEEP
DIVE OF RESEARCH INTO ELEPHANT
BEHAVIOUR, AND ONE OF THE THINGS
THAT STRUCK ME OVER THAT
RESEARCH WAS NOT JUST DEATH BUT BIRTH.
AND THIS IS NOT... YOU KNOW,
OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE A TON OF
EXAMPLES OF ELEPHANT TO HUMAN
INTERACTIONS THAT ARE REALLY
REACH AND EMOTIONAL, BUT THIS IS
JUST EVEN ELEPHANT TO ELEPHANT,
WHICH IS WHERE I IMAGINE THAT
ANIMAL EMOTIONAL LIFE IS EVEN
MORE DEVELOPED.
AND YOU KNOW, WHEN NEW CALF ARE
BORN IN THE WILD, THE SORT OF...
LIKE, THE BIG TROUPE OF
ELEPHANTS COMING OVER AND
HOOTING AND ALMOST STAMPING AND
CELEBRATING THE BIRTH OF A BABY
ELEPHANT.
OR, LIKE, THE REALLY WELL
DOCUMENTED GRIEVING BEHAVIOURS
WHERE WHEN AN OLDER ELEPHANT
DIES, YOU KNOW, THEY SOMETIMES
WILL BURY THEM WITH SORT OF
STICKS AND LEAVES, AND THEY'LL
KIND OF ATTEND WHAT ALMOST LOOKS
TO AN ANTHROPOMORPHIC EYE A FUNERAL.
I THINK ALL OF THIS SUGGESTS
THERE IS A LOT MORE GOING ON
THAN FIRST MEETS THE EYE WHEN IT
COMES TO ANIMAL EMOTIONS.

Steve says KRISTIN, TELL US ABOUT
A DOLPHIN NAMED PHOENIX.

The caption changes to "Kristin Andrews, @KristinAndrewz."

Kristin says SO I LOVE THIS STORY BECAUSE
IT SHOWS YOU HOW IMPORTANT IT IS
FOR US TO HAVE RELATIONSHIPS
WITH THE ANIMALS WHOM WE'RE
STUDYING AND THEY RESPOND SO
MUCH BETTER WHEN WE HAVE THESE
RELATIONSHIPS.
PHOENIX WAS A DOLPHIN WHO LIVED
IN A MARINE MAMMAL LABORATORY IN
THE '90S.
LOU HERMAN WAS DOING
COMMUNICATION RESEARCH WITH FOUR
BOTTLE NOSED DOLPHINS, AND
PHOENIX'S FRIEND AND TANKMATE
WAS TAUGHT A GESTURAL LANGUAGE.
SHE HAD A TRAINER WHO STOOD UP
IN FRONT OF HER, WOULD ASK HER TO
DO THINGS LIKE TAIL TOUCH THE
SURFBOARD.
AND THEN THE DOLPHIN WOULD GO
OUT AND DO THE BEHAVIOUR, COME
BACK, GET A FISH, GET A LOT OF
APPLAUSE AND ATTENTION.
PHOENIX WAS BEING TAUGHT A
DIFFERENT KIND OF LANGUAGE.
SHE WAS BEING TAUGHT A VOCAL
LANGUAGE, BUT SINCE HUMANS CAN'T
MAKE VERY GOOD DOLPHIN SOUNDS,
THIS VOCAL LANGUAGE WAS
PRESENTED ON A SPEAKER THAT WAS
PUT IN THE WATER.
AND INSTEAD OF HAVING A HUMAN TO
INTERACT WITH AS A COMMUNICATIVE
PARTNER, PHOENIX HAD A SPEAKER
MADE OF PVC PIPES IN THE WATER.
PHOENIX DID NOT LIKE THAT.
PHOENIX WOULD GO AND START TO
ATTACK THE SPEAKER AFTER A WHILE
WHEN IT WAS PLACED INTO THE
TANK.
AND THE EXPERIMENT JUST
COMPLETELY FAILED WHEN IT CAME
TO PHOENIX.
AND SO THEY STOPPED DOING THIS
RESEARCH WITH PHOENIX, BUT THEY
KEPT DOING IT WITH THE OTHER
DOLPHIN BECAUSE IT WAS WORKING
SO WELL.
PHOENIX WOULD THEN GO AND
INTERVENE IN THE OTHER DOLPHIN'S
EXPERIMENT.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT SHE WAS
FEELING.
WAS SHE ENVIOUS, WAS SHE
SPITEFUL?
BUT SHE WAS UNHAPPY, CLEARLY
UNHAPPY WITH WHAT WAS GOING ON.
AND SO MY JOB WHEN I WAS THERE
WAS TO CUDDLE PHOENIX AND OCCUPY
HER SO THE DOLPHIN COULD BE
TESTED.
AND WE JUST HUNG OUT TOGETHER,
AND LIKE PET EACH OTHER.
SHE PUT HER PEC FIN UP, I PUT MY
ELBOW OUT.
WE'D CUDDLE, GAZE INTO EACH
OTHER'S EYES.
I FELT LIKE PHOENIX WAS MY
FRIEND, WE HAD THIS
RELATIONSHIP.
AND BECAUSE WE HAD THIS
RELATIONSHIP IT WAS WORTH NOT
GOING AND EXPRESSING WHATEVER
ANGER SHE HAD TOWARDS THE OTHER DOLPHIN.

Steve says FASCINATING.
NOAM, I WANT YOU TO TALK JUST
ABOUT ZEBRA FISH AND THE NOTION
THAT THEY APPARENTLY CAN GET DEPRESSED.

Noah says RIGHT.

Steve says HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT?

The caption changes to "Noam Miller. Collective Cognition Lab."

Noah says WELL, SO THAT'S A VERY
INTERESTING QUESTION, AND I
THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO GET INTO
THE DETAILS OF SOME OF THESE EXPERIMENTS.
ONE OF THE WAYS THAT... SO ZEBRA
FISH, THEY ARE VERY SMALL FISH,
AND THEY ARE... PET STORE FISH,
AND THEY ARE USED A LOT IN
MOLECULAR BIOLOGY, ENVIRONMENTAL
BIOLOGY, AND THEY ARE USED A LOT
FOR DRUG DISCOVERY, SO YOU CAN
TEST A BUNCH OF SUBSTANCES ON
THEM, AND THE WAY THEY REACT
TELLS US A LOT ABOUT HOW HUMANS
ARE GOING TO REACT TO THOSE SAME
DRUGS, WHICH IN ITSELF IS very
INTERESTING.
AND SO WHEN YOU WANT TO STUDY
DEPRESSION, POTENTIALLY, IN
ZEBRA FISH, THE FIRST THING YOU
HAVE TO DO IS MAKE SOME
DEPRESSED ZEBRA FISH.
AND THE WAY YOU DO THAT IS BY
DOING WHAT'S CALLED
UNCONTROLLABLE MILD STRESS.
SO A COUPLE TIMES A WEEK
THROUGHOUT THEIR LIFETIME YOU
PRESENT THEM WITH SOME EVENT
THAT THEY DISLIKE, LIKE BEING
HANDLED OR BEING RESTRAINED, OR
PRESENTING THE ODOUR OF
SOMETHING THAT MIGHT BE A
PREDATOR.
AND YOU DO THAT AT UNPREDICTABLE
TIMES EVER SO OFTEN OVER A
PERIOD OF TIME.
WHICH IS SUPPOSED TO BE
ANALOGOUS TO GROWING UP UNDER
UNCERTAIN CONDITIONS WHERE YOU
NEVER KNOW WHEN YOU'RE GOING TO
GET FED OR WHO'S GOING TO BEAT
YOU UP.
THAT KIND OF ANALOGY.
WHAT YOU CAN THEN DO IS YOU CAN
TEST THEM TO SEE WHETHER THEY'RE
DEPRESSED OR NOT.
AND AGAIN, YOU CAN'T ASK A FISH
HOW ARE YOU FEELING.
FISH, IN FACT, HAVE VERY LIMITED
WAYS OF EXPRESSING WHAT THEY ARE
DOING.
SO THEY CAN MOVE THEIR BODIES
AROUND.
THEY CAN PUT THEIR FINS OUT,
OPEN AND CLOSE THEIR MOUTHS.
THAT'S ABOUT IT.
THE STANDARD WAY FOR MEASURING
WHETHER FISH ARE DEPRESSED IS
YOU PUT THEM IN A TANK AND YOU
SEE WHETHER THEY SPEND TIME NEAR
THE TOP OF THE TANK, WHICH IS
SUPPOSED TO BE EXPLORING THEIR
ENVIRONMENT, OR DOWN NEAR THE
BOTTOM OF THE TANK JUST KIND OF
HIDING OUT.
AND ONE OF THE IMPORTANT THINGS
TO REALIZE ABOUT THIS, THIS IS
NOT THE ONLY MEASURE, BUT ONE OF
THE IMPORTANT THINGS TO REALIZE
ABOUT THIS IS IT'S A VERY COARSE
MEASURE AS OPPOSED TO SAY IF
YOU'RE A CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST
OR A PSYCHIATRIST TRYING TO
EVALUATE WHETHER A HUMAN IS
DEPRESSED, YOU WOULD GO THROUGH
A MUCH WIDER RANGE OF MEASURES
TO FIGURE OUT WHETHER THIS
ACTUALLY QUALIFIES AS
DEPRESSION.
SO WE SAY THAT THE ZEBRA FISH
GET DEPRESSED, AND MAYBE THEY
DO.
THERE ARE CERTAINLY SOME
ANALOGIES BETWEEN WHAT'S
HAPPENING TO THE ZEBRA FISH AND
WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH HUMANS.
THERE'S AN INTERESTING ASPECT
WHICH IS THAT SOME OF THESE
BEHAVIOURS THAT THE ZEBRA FISH
GO AWAY WHEN YOU GIVE THEM
ANTIDEPRESSANT DRUGS, THE SAME
KIND THAT WORK ON HUMANS.
ZEBRA FISH ARE VERTEBRATES, JUST
LIKE WE ARE.
THAT TELLS US SOME OF THE
MECHANISMS GOING ON IN OUR
BRAINS ARE VERY, VERY SIMILAR.

Steve says WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT
INTELLIGENCE HERE FOR A SECOND,
AND ROSS I'M GOING TO PLUCK SOME
MORE EXAMPLES OUT OF THE ARTICLE
YOU DID FOR THE ATLANTIC.
FOR EXAMPLE, APPARENTLY WE NOW
KNOW THAT...

A slate appears on screen, with the title "I think, therefore I..."

Steve reads data from the slate and says
ELEPHANTS CAN CLASSIFY
HUMANS BY AGE, GENDER AND LANGUAGE.
SPERM WHALES ENGAGE IN
CONSENSUS-BASED DECISION-MAKING.
OCTOPUSES, YES, THAT IS
APPARENTLY THE PLURAL, NOT
OCTOPI, OCTOPUSES USE SHELLS AS TOOLS.
RAVENS CAN PLAN FOR THE FUTURE.
AND WHAT WE HEARD EARLIER,
LAB-BOUND HONEYBEES CAN LEARN TO
RECOGNIZE ABSTRACT CONCEPTS,
INCLUDING SIMILAR TO, DIFFERENT FROM, AND ZERO.
UMM, OKAY.
SY, I WANT TO GO TO YOU AGAIN ON THIS.
YOU TALKED TO US ABOUT YOUR
EXPERIENCE WITH THE OCTOPUS.
I WANT TO TALK ABOUT A DIFFERENT
ANIMAL, INCLUDING A 750-POUND
PIG NAMED CHRISTOPHER HOGWOOD.
TELL US ABOUT CHRISTOPHER.

The caption changes to "Are we too dumb to realize how smart they are?"

Sy says WELL, HE WAS CERTAINLY
SMARTER THAN WE WERE BECAUSE HE
HAD US WORKING FOR HIM 24-7.
HE WAS JUST A GREAT BIG BUDDHA
MASTER, A FABULOUS PIG.
NOW PIGS, EVEN THOUGH A LOT OF
PEOPLE THINK OF THEM AS SIMPLY
THE SIDE NEXT TO YOUR EGGS IN
THE MORNING, THEY'RE VERY SMART,
AND PEOPLE HAVE COMPARED THEIR
INTELLIGENCE TO DOGS.
THEY FIGURE OUT ALL KINDS OF
THINGS.
AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT
CHRISTOPHER WAS VERY GOOD AT
FIGURING OUT WAS HOW TO GET OUT
OF HIS PEN.
HE LIKED HIS PEN FINE, BUT HE
LIKED SOCIAL INTERACTION, AND HE
WOULD THREAD HIS FLEXIBLE NOSE
DISK AND HIS LIPS THROUGH THE
SLATS OF HIS GATE, AND HE WAS
ABLE TO MOVE THE LATCH, WHICH
WASN'T JUST A LATCH THAT MOVED
TO ONE SIDE.
YOU HAD TO FLIP IT AND THEN MOVE IT.
THEN HE WOULD REMOVE THE BUNGEE
CORDS THAT WE HAD ON TOP OF
THAT, LET HIMSELF OUT AND GO
VISIT HIS NEIGHBOURS.
HE ALSO WAS EXTREMELY... HE HAD
GREAT SOCIAL INTELLIGENCE,
GREAT EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE.
HE REMEMBERED PEOPLE.
FOR YEARS.
HE'D SEE SOMEONE ONCE AND
REMEMBER THEM YEARS LATER.
ONE OF HIS FRIENDS WAS A GUY
NAMED RAY, AND HE LOVED RAY.
RAY WEIGHED 300 POUNDS, SO I
THINK HE KIND OF FELT LIKE THIS
GUY KNOWS WHERE ALL THE FOOD IS.
WELL, HE MET RAY ONCE, DID NOT
SEE HIM FOR YEARS, AND THE NEXT
TIME RAY CAME BACK, HE GAVE HIM
THIS LAVISH GREETING.
AND ANOTHER THING HE DID, HE
UNDERSTOOD... I HAVE A NUMBER OF
FRIENDS WHO USE WHEELCHAIRS, AND
EVEN THOUGH CHRISTOPHER WOULD
LOVE TO KNOCK OVER THE WOODPILE
AND LOVE TO... HE LOVED TO WRECK
STUFF.
YOU WOULD THINK IT WOULD BE A
TON OF FUN TO KNOCK OVER SOMEONE
IN A WHEELCHAIR, BUT HE KNEW NOT
TO DO THAT.
AND HE WAS ALSO VERY TENDER WITH
A LITTLE FRIEND OF MINE WHO WAS
14 NAMED KELLY WHO HAD BRAIN
CANCER WHO WAS QUITE FRAIL, AND
YET HER PARENTS KNEW THAT SHE
COULD LEAVE... THEY COULD LEAVE
KELLY WITH CHRISTOPHER, 750
POUNDS WITH GREAT LONG TUSKS,
AND THAT HE WOULD BE ABSOLUTELY
TENDER WITH HER AND LOOK AFTER HER.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Steve says HMM. OKAY.
WE HAVE LOOKED AT THE EMOTIONAL
COMPONENT OF THIS STORY.
WE HAVE LOOKED AT THE
INTELLIGENCE COMPONENT OF THIS
STORY.
KRISTIN, GET US STARTED AND IN
SOME CONVERSATION NOW ABOUT
WHETHER YOU THINK ANIMALS HAVE
CONSCIOUSNESS.

Kristin says AH.
WELL, CAN I DEFINE CONSCIOUSNESS FIRST?

Steve says PLEASE DO.

The caption changes to "Oh, their humanity?"

Kristin says I FOUND THIS IS A REALLY
HELPFUL THING TO DO.
CONSCIOUSNESS CAN BE UNDERSTOOD
AS AN UMBRELLA TERM.
SO WE ALL THINK, OH,
CONSCIOUSNESS IS ALL OF THE
STUFF, LIKE ME THINKING ABOUT
MYSELF AND AM I SELF-CONSCIOUS
IN FRONT OF PEOPLE.
THERE'S ANOTHER SENSE OF
CONSCIOUSNESS THAT'S NOT AS
REFLECTIVE.
IT'S JUST FEELING THINGS.
SOMETIMES IT'S DESCRIBED AS SENT
YENS.
I FEEL COLD, PAIN, HEAT, JOY, I
FEEL THE SUN ON MY SKIN.
ALL OF THIS COUNTS UNDER THIS
LARGE UMBRELLA OF CONSCIOUSNESS.
SO IF WE WANT TO ASK A QUESTION
ABOUT WHETHER OTHER ANIMALS ARE
CONSCIOUS, OR WE'RE INTERESTED
IN THIS ISSUE, WE MIGHT BE
BETTER OFF STARTING WITH THIS
IDEA, THIS QUESTION ARE OTHER
ANIMALS SENTIENT.
DO OTHER ANIMALS FEEL THINGS?
AND ONCE WE HAVE THAT
ESTABLISHED, WE CAN ASK THESE
MORE COMPLICATED QUESTIONS ABOUT
KINDS OF CONSCIOUSNESS.
DO ANIMALS HAVE SELF-REFLECTIVE
MENTAL STATES WHERE THEY THINK
ABOUT THEIR THOUGHTS?
DO THEY HAVE EMOTIONAL STATES OF
GUILT THAT ARE MORE
SOPHISTICATED THAN WANTING SOMETHING?

Steve says DO WE HAVE ANSWERS TO
THOSE QUESTIONS YET?

Kristin says WE DEFINITELY HAVE ANSWERS TO
WHETHER OTHER ANIMALS HAVE SENT
YENS, HAVE FEELINGS, AND PART OF
THIS HAS TO DO WITH A HOST OF
RESEARCH THAT'S BEEN DONE ON
ANIMAL PAIN EXPERIENCE.
I THINK NOAM'S GOING TO TALK
ABOUT THAT.
BUT I'M REALLY INTERESTED IN
THIS QUESTION OF HOW WE
UNDERSTAND, WHY WE TAKE OTHER
HUMANS TO BE CONSCIOUS, BECAUSE
WE DON'T KNOW, RIGHT?
I SEE YOU AND I TREAT YOU LIKE
YOU'RE CONSCIOUS, BUT I DON'T
FEEL YOUR CONSCIOUSNESS.
SO WHAT IS IT ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE
DOING THAT MAKES ME THINK YOU'RE
CONSCIOUS?
IS IT, LIKE SOME PEOPLE ARGUE,
THAT YOU CAN SAY THIS IS HOW I FEEL?
I DON'T THINK SO FOR TWO
REASONS, AND ONE IS THAT WHEN
KIDS SAY I WANT THIS, I FEEL
THIS WAY, WE'RE NOT LIKE, OH,
WOW, YOU'RE CONSCIOUS.
NOW ALL OF A SUDDEN I BELIEVE
YOU'RE CONSCIOUS.
WE THOUGHT THEY WERE CONSCIOUS
ALL ALONG.
AND THE OTHER WORRY IS THAT
WE'RE GOING TO SOON HAVE ROBOTS
THAT SAY I FEEL LIKE PLAYING
ANOTHER GAME OF GO TODAY.
AND ARE WE GOING TO THEN TAKE
THAT AS DEFINITIVE EVIDENCE THAT
THEY ARE CONSCIOUS?
IT'S ALL OF THESE MARKERS AND
BEHAVIOURS THAT WE SEE, YOUNG
CHILDREN, OUR DOGS, OUR
OCTOPUSES THAT WE'RE FRIENDS
WITH, THE RATS THAT WE INTERACT
WITH AS EVIDENCE THAT THEY FEEL
THINGS, THAT THEY ARE
EXPERIENCING THINGS.
IT'S THE EYE CONTACT, IT'S THE
CONTINGENCIES AND INTERACTION
WITH ONE ANOTHER.
IT'S THE EXPRESSIONS OF
EMOTIONS.
THERE'S A WAY IN WHICH WE JUST
PERCEIVE THE MENTALITY OF OTHER
BEINGS, AND SO THERE'S NO
QUESTION THAT OTHERS FEEL.

Steve says ADD SOMETHING TO THAT,
DAPHNA, IF YOU WOULD.

Daphna says I WOULD LOVE TO ADD QUITE A
BIT TO THAT, ACTUALLY.
SO I DO THINK THAT ONE OF THE
CHALLENGES THERE THAT I WANTED
TO CIRCLE BACK TO IS A LOT OF
THESE EXAMPLES WE FIND
COMPELLING IS THESE EXAMPLES
WHERE WE FEEL OR SEE... WE THINK
THAT THE ANIMAL IS EXPERIENCING
VERY AKIN TO WHAT WE EXPERIENCE
AS AN ADULT HUMAN, AND WE FIND
THAT REALLY COMPELLING.
OH, THEIR EMOTION OF, YOU KNOW,
GRIEF, OR THEIR BEHAVIOUR IN THE
FACE OF GRIEF OR JOY SEEMS SO
LIKE OURS.
BUT I THINK PART OF THIS
QUESTION IS CAN ANIMALS AND EVEN
FOR INSTANCE VERY YOUNG
CHILDREN, THEY MAY BE HAVING A
RICH, SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCE IN
THE WORLD THAT WE SHOULD TAKE
SERIOUSLY THAT'S NOT AT ALL LIKE
OURS AND THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT
LESS VALUABLE OR INTERESTING,
RIGHT?
I THINK WE HAVE THIS VERY HUMAN
TENDENCY TO LOOK AT WHAT'S
SPECIAL ABOUT US AND DO OTHER
ANIMALS HAVE IT, RIGHT?
SO COMING BACK TO THIS QUESTION
OF INTELLIGENCE, WE POINT TO
THINGS LIKE TOOL USE AND
BEHAVIOURAL FLEXIBILITY.
OR WE LOOK AT OUR ABILITY TO USE
LANGUAGE AND SAY THAT MUST MAKE
US VERY SPECIAL BECAUSE WE DON'T
SEE OTHER ANIMALS TALKING, BUT
THAT'S THE DOLPHIN, RIGHT?
AND DOGS CAN SNIFF OUT A CANCER
CELL IN I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY
MILLIONS OF DILUTION.
THOSE ARE VERY UNIQUE SKILLS,
AND THEY ARE BASED ON PERCEPTUAL
ABILITIES THAT MAY BE VERY
DIFFERENT FROM OUR OWN.
I THINK IT'S VERY INTERESTING
AND VALUABLE TO EXAMINE THE WAYS
THAT ANIMALS ARE SIMILAR TO US,
BUT ALSO NOT TO DISCOUNT THE
WAYS IN WHICH THEIR EXPERIENCE
OF THE WORLD MAY BE
FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT FROM
OURS.
COMING BACK TO SOME OF THESE
MORE SOPHISTICATED MARKERS WE
OFTEN ASSOCIATE WITH
CONSCIOUSNESS.
SO FOR HUMANS WE OFTEN TALK
ABOUT WHAT'S CALLED MENTAL TIME
TRAVEL.
THE IDEA IS THAT ONE OF THE WAYS
IN WHICH WE THINK PEOPLE HAVE A
SENSE OF THEMSELVES IS THAT THEY
CAN THINK OF THEMSELVES AS KIND
OF A SINGLE ENTITY DRIFTING
THROUGH TIME.
I CAN REFLECT ON WHAT HAPPENED
TO ME IN THE PAST.
I CAN PLAN FOR AND PREDICT WHAT
MIGHT HAPPEN TO ME IN THE
FUTURE, AND THAT REQUIRES
THINKING ABOUT ME AND MY PERSONAL...

Steve says THAT'S CONSCIOUSNESS.

The caption changes to "Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live."

Daphna says BUT WE DON'T EVEN THINK OR WE
DON'T KNOW.
IT'S AN OPEN RESEARCH QUESTION
THE EXTENT TO WHICH VERY YOUNG
CHILDREN HAVE THAT EXPERIENCE IN
THE WAY WE DO AS ADULTS.
AS KRISTIN ALLUDED TO WE DON'T
IN MODERN TIMES POINT TO YOUNG
CHILDREN AND SAY, WELL, UNTIL
YOU CAN EXPERIENCE EPITHETIC
MEMORY AND FUTURE PLANNING
YOU'RE NOT REALLY CONSCIOUS.
AND SO WE WANT TO BE CAREFUL IF
WE'RE HOLDING THAT UP.
THAT MAY BE A BAR THAT'S TOO
HIGH OR TOO SPECIFIC IN MANY WAYS.

Steve says SURE.
LET ME GET NOAM, SINCE YOU
SUGGESTED HE HAD SOMETHING TO
SAY ABOUT PAIN, WHY DON'T YOU
COME ON IN ON THAT ANGLE.

Noam says SURE.
SO THERE ARE INTERESTING
EXAMPLES ABOUT PAIN IN FISH, FOR
EXAMPLE.
SO ONE OF THE MOST INTERESTING
EXAMPLES OF THIS WAS DONE BY
VICTORIA BRAITHWAITE, WAS
SHOWING THAT IF YOU DO SOMETHING
THAT WOULD CAUSE PAIN IN US TO
CERTAIN FISH, SO ONE OF THE
THINGS THAT THEY DO IS THEY
INJECT THIS UNPLEASANT
SUBSTANCE.
IT'S LIKE DISTILLED BEE VENOM,
INTO THE LIPS OF THE FISH, THE
FISH THEN STOP... THEY BEHAVE AS
IF THEY ARE IN PAIN, IN A WAY
THAT IF WE WERE BEHAVING THAT
WAY WE WOULD CERTAINLY
EXPERIENCE PAIN.
AND AGAIN, SIMILARLY TO THE
OTHER FISH EXAMPLE BEFORE, IF
YOU GIVE THESE FISH PAINKILLERS,
THAT ALSO... PAINKILLERS THAT
WORK ON HUMANS, THAT ALSO HAS AN
EFFECT ON HOW THEY BEHAVE
RELATIVE TO THE PAIN.

Steve says HMM.

Noam says I THINK THE INTERESTING POINT
OF CONSCIOUSNESS AND I THINK
WHAT KRISTIN AND DAPHNA HAVE
BEEN POINTING TOWARDS, WHAT I
THINK IS HAPPENING TODAY IN
CONSCIOUSNESS RESEARCH IS THAT
WE'RE REALIZING THAT
CONSCIOUSNESS IS NOT A SINGLE
THING.
THAT YOU CAN BREAK IT DOWN INTO
A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT ABILITIES
OR KINDS OF PROPHECIES THAT ARE
GOING ON.
MUCH LIKE WHAT HAPPENED WITH
LANGUAGE RESEARCH.
WE USED TO SAY, WELL, ANIMALS
DON'T HAVE LANGUAGE, OR ANIMALS
DO HAVE LANGUAGE.
WHAT WE THEN REALIZED IS
LANGUAGE IS NOT A THING.
LANGUAGE IS A WHOLE SUITE OF
THINGS, AND SOME OF THOSE WE
SHARE WITH A WHOLE BUNCH OF
OTHER SPECIES AND SOME OF THOSE
MAYBE WE SHARE WITH A FEW
SPECIES AND MAYBE SOME ARE
UNIQUE TO HUMANS.
AND I THINK THE SAME THING IS
HAPPENING ARE CONSCIOUSNESS.
WE REALIZE ANIMALS FEEL THINGS
AND MAYBE ANIMALS CAN PERCEIVE
THINGS.
MAYBE ANIMALS CAN LEARN, CAN
PROCESS THINGS.
ALL OF THOSE WE HAVE PRETTY GOOD
EVIDENCE FOR, AND MOST OF THOSE
ARE COMPONENTS OF CONSCIOUSNESS.
AND SO MAYBE ANIMALS HAVE
CONSCIOUSNESS, BUT IT'S NOT A
CONSCIOUSNESS THAT LOOKS LIKE
OURS.
MAYBE IT'S GOT DIFFERENT
COMPONENTS THAN OURS DOES.

Steve says WELL, LET ME TRY THIS
FOLLOW-UP WITH SY.
CLEARLY THROUGH YOUR EXPERIENCE
YOU HAVE TOLD US THAT ANIMALS
FEEL DEEPLY, BUT DO YOU GET THE
SENSE THAT THEY... FOR EXAMPLE,
THERE'S A... THAT OCTOPUS THAT
YOU TALKED ABOUT EARLIER,
OCTAVIA, I GUESS, DO YOU KNOW
WHETHER OCTAVIA FELT THAT SHE
WAS DYING AS OPPOSED TO JUST SAD OR SICK?

Sy says WELL, SHE CERTAINLY KNEW SHE
DIDN'T FEEL WELL, BUT I OFTEN
WONDER IF WE ALWAYS KNOW THAT
WE'RE DYING.
WE DON'T NECESSARILY KNOW
BECAUSE WE'VE NEVER DONE IT BEFORE.

Steve says I DON'T KNOW.
I'VE DONE IT ON THIS SHOW A FEW TIMES.

Sy says AND PEOPLE DON'T COME BACK TO
TALK ABOUT IT, RIGHT?
SO I KNOW SHE DIDN'T FEEL WELL,
BUT YOU KNOW, WITH OCTOPUSES,
WHAT'S SO INTERESTING IS A LOT
OF THEM LIVE A SOLITARY
EXISTENCE.
SO WHAT SHE KNEW SHE DIDN'T
LEARN FROM HER MOTHER, FOR
EXAMPLE.
A LOT OF STUFF IS ALSO GIVEN TO
US HUMANS.
WE HAVE INSTINCTS AS WELL, BUT
CONSCIOUSNESS IS ADAPTIVE.
WE KNOW THAT BECAUSE IT'S
ADAPTIVE IN OUR LIVES.
SO WHY SHOULDN'T OTHER ANIMALS
HAVE IT?
WHY SHOULD IT ARISE DE NOVO IN
ONE SPECIES ALONE?
THAT SEEMS KIND OF CRAZY TO ME.

Steve says HMM.
LET'S DO ONE MORE EXCERPT FROM
ROSS'S ARTICLE IN THE ATLANTIC.
HERE WE GO.

A quote from the same source appears on screen, under the title "Comparing suffering." The quote reads "Fish PAIN IS SOMETHING DIFFERENT FROM OUR OWN PAIN. IN THE ELABORATE MIRRORED HALL THAT IS HUMAN CONSCIOUSNESS, PAIN TAKES ON EXISTENTIAL DIMENSIONS. BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT DEATH LOOMS, AND grieve FOR THE LOSS OF RICHLY IMAGINED FUTURES, IT'S TEMPTING
TO IMAGINE THAT OUR PAIN IS THE MOST PROFOUND OF ALL SUFFERING."

Steve says ROSS, HAVING STUDIED THIS NOW AS
MUCH AS YOU HAVE, DO YOU THINK
OUR PAIN IS THE MOST PROFOUND OF
ALL SUFFERING?

The caption changes to "If you prick us, do we not bleed?"

Ross says I'M NOT SURE, TO BE HONEST.
I MEAN, I DO THINK THAT WE ARE
AT THE VERY BEGINNING OF A
REALLY LONG PROCESS THAT KIND OF
HAS TWO PRONGS TO IT.
ONE IS REALLY FIGURING OUT WHAT
THE KIND OF QUALITATIVE NATURE
OF ANIMAL SUFFERING IS LIKE AND
ACROSS THE VERY MANY ANIMAL
SPECIES THAT THERE ARE.
AND THEN I THINK A LARGER
PROJECT, WHICH IS A SORT OF
CULTURAL AND PHILOSOPHICAL
PROJECT, OF DECIDING HOW WE KIND
OF VALUE ANIMAL PAIN AND
SUFFERING, WHICH IS TO SAY HOW
MUCH DO WE THINK WE OUGHT TO GO
OUT OF OUR WAY TO MAKE SURE THAT
IT DOESN'T OCCUR OR AT LEAST
DOESN'T OCCUR BY OUR OWN HAND.
BUT I WOULD STRESS THAT DESPITE
WHAT I MIGHT HAVE SAID IN THE
PIECE, I THINK WE'RE STILL AT
THE VERY, VERY BEGINNING OF THAT PROCESS.

Steve says ALL RIGHT.
WITH JUST A FEW MINUTES TO GO
HERE, LET'S FINISH ON THIS.
DAPHNA, I'LL GO TO YOU FIRST.
WHAT DOES THIS... ALL OF WHAT
WE'VE TALKED ABOUT OVER THE LAST
ALMOST 40 MINUTES HERE, WHAT
DOES IT ALL MEAN FOR, IN YOUR
VIEW, HOW WE SHOULD TREAT ANIMALS?

Daphna says I THINK THAT'S A GREAT
QUESTION, AND I THINK THAT THIS
RELATES TO WHAT ROSS BROUGHT UP.
SO KIND OF RELATED TO THIS
QUESTION OF THE COGNITIVE
REVOLUTION, IT WASN'T THAT LONG
AGO WHEN WE DIDN'T EVEN GIVE
INFANTS ANAESTHESIA BEFORE
SURGERY BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T
YET TALK AND ARTICULATE FEELINGS
AND SAY, AS KRISTIN SAID, YOU
KNOW, I WANT THIS OR I THINK
THAT.
WE THOUGHT THAT THEY DIDN'T HAVE
THEM.
OBVIOUSLY WE RADICALLY CHANGED
OUR THOUGHTS ON THAT.
WE THINK THAT INFANTS HAVE A LOT
OF EXPERIENCE OF THE WORLD,
INCLUDING PAIN.
AND SO YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT WE
HAVE LEARNED ENOUGH TO SAY FROM
WHAT NOAM POINTED TO ANOTHER IS
THAT ALMOST EVERY ANIMAL SPECIES
THAT EXISTS REACTS, YOU KNOW, IN
A PAIN-LIKE MANNER TO ADVERSIVE
STIMULI AND HAS A PERCEPTUAL
EXPERIENCE OF THE WORLD, AND WE
NEED TO TAKE THAT SERIOUSLY.
I GUESS ONE THING I DO WANT TO
SAY ABOUT THAT IS THAT WE WANT
TO TREAT ANIMALS ETHICALLY, BUT
WE ALSO DO, AGAIN, WANT TO BE
AWARE OF WHAT THAT MEANS FOR
THAT ANIMAL.
SO THERE HAVE BEEN, FOR
INSTANCE, CASES WHERE PEOPLE
WITH VERY WELL-INTENTIONED
APPROACHES TRIED TO MAKE AN
ANIMAL'S CONDITION BETTER IN THE
WAY THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER
IF THE HUMAN WERE THAT ANIMAL.
SO THE SPECIFIC CASE I'M
THINKING OF IS WITH FREE RANGE
CHICKENS.
THAT THERE'S ACTUALLY BEEN A LOT
OF RESEARCH THAT THE CHICKENS,
NOT THAT THEY SHOULD BE ALL
PACKED IN TOGETHER, BUT THAT
THEY WANT TO BE CLOSE TO OTHER
CHICKENS.
THAT IF YOU... PEOPLE DID AN
EXPERIMENT IF YOU TAKE THE
CHICKENS, THEY HAVE ENOUGH ROOM
TO RUN AROUND, YOU PUT THEM NEXT
TO THE OTHER CHICKEN OR YOU MOVE
THEM FAR AWAY, THE CHICKEN WHO
IS MOVED FAR AWAY WILL CHOOSE TO
GO BACK TO THE OTHER CHICKENS.
SO WHEN WE THINK ABOUT TREATING
THE ANIMALS, ESPECIALLY
DOMESTICATED ANIMALS WHO WE HAVE
A RESPONSIBILITY FOR, ETHICALLY,
PART OF THAT MEANS GIVING THEM
THE SORT OF EXPERIENCE THAT'S
NATURAL TO THAT ANIMAL AND GIVE
THAT ANIMAL THE SORT OF MOST
ENJOYABLE LEAST PAINFUL LIFE FOR
ITS SORT OF SPECIES TYPICAL BEHAVIOURS.

Steve says GOTCHA.
SY, I'M DOWN TO MY LAST MINUTE.
HOW DO YOU THINK THIS SHOULD
AFFECT HOW WE TREAT ANIMALS
GOING FORWARD?

Sy says OH, I THINK, ONE, OUR
UNDERSTANDING OF CONSCIOUSNESS
WILL EXPAND THANKS TO THIS, AND
IT'S MY HOPE THAT OUR FEELING OF
COMPASSION WILL EXPAND AS WELL.
ONCE WE KNOW THAT ANIMALS ARE
THINKING, FEELING AND KNOWING,
WE OWE THEM THE BEST LIFE WE CAN
GIVE THEM.
AND THAT'S WITHIN OUR GRASP.

The caption changes to "Producer: Eric Bombicino, @ebombicino."

Steve says THAT'S A GREAT PLACE
TO LEAVE THIS.
CAN I THANK OUR TWO GUESTS ON
THE LINE IN POINTS BEYOND IN
UNITED STATES, ROSS ANDERSEN,
WHOSE WORK YOU CAN READ IN THE
ATLANTIC, THE MARCH EDITION ON
THIS.
HE'S COMING TO US TODAY FROM
WASHINGTON, D.C., SY
MONTGOMERY'S 20 BOOKS, PICK ONE.
THEY ARE ALL GREAT.
NOAM MILLER AT WILFRID LAURIER
UNIVERSITY.
KRISTIN ANDREWS WHO HAS THE YORK
RESEARCH CHAIR, YOU'RE A FULL
PROFESSOR NOW, AREN'T YOU?

Kristin gives Steve a thumb up and Steve continues
YORK UNIVERSITY, RIGHT ON.
AND DAPHNA BUCHSBAUM, ASSISTANT
PROFESSOR PSYCHOLOGY UNIVERSITY
OF TORONTO, PRINCIPAL
INVESTIGATOR AT THE CANINE
COGNITION LAB AT THE UNIVERSITY
OF TORONTO.
GREAT TO HAVE ALL OF YOU ON TVO
TONIGHT.
THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH.

Kristin says THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

Ross says THANK YOU.

Sy says Thank you.

Watch: What Animals Think and Feel