Transcript: Jews Are Afraid Again | Feb 04, 2019

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and spotted purple tie.

A caption on screen reads "Jews are afraid again. Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Steve says IT DID NOT TAKE THE
TERRIBLE EVENTS OF LAST YEAR AT
A SYNAGOGUE IN PITTSBURGH WHERE
A GUNMAN KILLED 11 PEOPLE TO
REMIND OUR NEXT GUEST THAT
ANTISEMITISM IS STILL WITH US.
SHE HAS CONFRONTED IT HEAD-ON
OVER A DISTINGUISHED CAREER
WRITING AND STUDYING ITS
ENDURING ROT.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT IS THE DOROT
PROFESSOR OF MODERN JEWISH AND
HOLOCAUST STUDIES AT EMORY
UNIVERSITY. HER NEW BOOK IS
"ANTISEMITISM: HERE AND NOW."
AND WE WELCOME HER BACK TO TVO.

Deborah is in her sixties, with short wavy auburn hair. She's wearing a black sweater over a striped blue shirt, and a blue jersey over her shoulders.
A picture of her book appears briefly on screen. The cover features a nighttime picture of a shaven-headed man doing a Nazi salute. His face is not visible in the picture.

Steve continues SO NICE TO HAVE YOU IN THAT
CHAIR THIS TIME.

Deborah says THANK YOU. IT'S A PLEASURE.

Steve says YOU HAVE BEEN HERE BUT
ONLY ON SATELLITE.

Deborah says VIRTUALLY.

Steve says YOU RECENTLY WROTE A
PERFECT STORM OF ANTISEMITISM
IS NOT JUST BREWING BUT IS UPON
US. HOW DO YOU SEE THAT STORM
MANIFESTING ITSELF?

The caption changes to "Deborah Lipstadt. Author, 'Antisemitism: Here and now.'"
Then, it changes again to "An old/new hatred."

Deborah says WELL, WHAT I SEE IS
ANTISEMITISM COMING FROM THE
POLITICAL RIGHT AS IN
CHARLOTTESVILLE. I SEE IT COMING
FROM THE POLITICAL LEFT AS WE
SAW IN THE WOMEN'S MARCH IN THE
UNITED STATES, JEREMY CORBYN
AND THE LABOUR PARTY IN ENGLAND
AND THE THIRD DIRECTION IS
ISLAMIST JIHADIST EXTREMISTS
WHO HAVE CAUSED QUITE A LOT OF
DAMAGE PARTICULARLY BUT NOT ONLY
IN EUROPE.
AND ALSO IN SECTORS OF THE
MUSLIM COMMUNITY.
AN ANTI-SEMITISM THAT IS NOT
GOING TO PROVOKE THOSE PEOPLE TO
TAKE THOSE WHO ARE INFECTED WITH
IT TO PICK UP A MACHETE OR A GUN
BUT WHO GET A SENSE OF ANTIPATHY
OR HATRED AGAINST JEWS.

Steve says YOU MENTIONED EUROPE
AND WE'RE GOING TO PICK UP ON
THAT.
THIS IS FROM A SURVEY OF JEWS IN
12 EUROPEAN COUNTRIES AND
REVEALS THE FOLLOWING.
SHELDON, THE GRAPHIC PLEASE.
HERE WE GO.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "Antisemitic harassment in the European Union."

Steve reads data from the slate and says
28 percent OF ALL RESPONDENTS... 28 percent
SAID THEY EXPERIENCED
ANTISEMITIC HARASSMENT AT LEAST
ONCE DURING THE PERIOD OF THE
SURVEY.
THOSE WHO DISPLAY ITEMS IN
PUBLIC THAT COULD IDENTIFY THEM
AS JEWISH ARE SUBJECTED TO MORE
ANTISEMITIC HARASSMENT THAN
THOSE WHO DO NOT.
NEARLY HALF, 47 percent OF RESPONDENTS
WORRIED ABOUT BEING SUBJECTED TO
ANTISEMITIC INSULTS OR
HARASSMENT AND 4 IN 10 WORRIED
ABOUT AN ANTISEMITIC PHYSICAL
ATTACK.
ABOUT A THIRD, 34 percent OF
RESPONDENTS AVOID VISITING
JEWISH EVENTS OR SITES BECAUSE
THEY SAY THEY DO NOT FEEL SAFE
AS JEWS WHEN THEY ARE THERE OR
ON THEIR WAY THERE.
ALMOST 4 IN 10... 38 percent, IN THE
FIVE YEARS PRECEDING THE SURVEY,
BECAUSE THEY DID NOT FEEL SAFE
AS JEWS IN THE COUNTRY WHERE
THEY LIVE.
THAT'S EUROPE.
HOW WOULD YOU COMPARE THE
EXPERIENCE OF BEING JEWISH IN
EUROPE WHERE WE SEE THOSE
NUMBERS TO BEING JEWISH IN NORTH AMERICA?

The caption changes to "Deborah Lipstadt. Emory University."

Deborah says I THINK IT'S A
LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT.
AND THAT STUDY WHICH WAS A
COMPELLING STUDY WHEN IT CAME
OUT WAS DONE BY THE EUROPEAN
UNION.
SO IT'S GOT A LOT OF GRAVITAS.
I THINK THERE IS A GREATER FEAR
IN EUROPE.
IN EUROPE IT'S NOT COMMON AT
ALL.
OR IT'S INCREASINGLY UNCOMMON IN
CERTAIN CITIES, IN CERTAIN
SECTORS OF CERTAIN CITIES FOR
JEWS TO GO WITH KIPPOT OR A HEAD
COVERING, A T-SHIRT THAT MIGHT
SAY THE JEWISH MUSIC FESTIVAL OR
SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
AND THERE HAVE BEEN SO MANY
ATTACKS IN EUROPE.
I MEAN HERE WE'VE HAD
PITTSBURGH.
AND I THINK IN NORTH AMERICA
BOTH IN THE UNITED STATES AND IN
CANADA, INCREASING NUMBERS OF
SYNAGOGUES ARE INVESTING IN
SECURITY GUARDS.
I WAS TALKING TO SOMEONE
YESTERDAY IN DENVER, COLORADO,
WHERE THE JEWISH PRE-SCHOOL IN
THEIR SYNAGOGUE WITH LITTLE KIDS
IS INVESTING IN GLASS YOU CAN'T
SEE THROUGH.
SPECIAL I-PADS THAT CONTROL WHO
COMES IN AND WHO GOING GOES OUT
AND EVERYTHING CAN BE SEEN.
DOORS THAT ARE SOME LOCKED SOME
ARE KEPT OPEN FOR ESCAPE.
SO PEOPLE ARE LIVING MORE ON THE
EDGE.

Steve says IN THIS CITY IN WHICH
YOU FIND YOURSELF RIGHT NOW
WHICH I THINK HAS THE BIGGEST
JEWISH COMMUNITY IN CANADA
DURING HIGH HOLIDAY SERVICES YOU
WILL SEE AT EVERY MAJOR AND MANY
MINOR SYNAGOGUES IN THIS CITY
POLICE OFFICERS WITH MACHINE
GUNS STANDING AT THE DOORS.

Deborah says THAT'S RIGHT.

Steve says WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT?

Deborah says I THINK I AM GLAD THEY'RE
THERE.
I APPRECIATE THEIR BEING THERE.
I AM ALWAYS CAREFUL TO THANK
THEM, THE SAME THING WITH MY
CITY IN ATLANTA, GEORGIA IN OUR
SYNAGOGUE.
AND I AM SAD THAT THEY'RE THERE.
BECAUSE THE KIDS COMING TO
SYNAGOGUE.
ALL THEY HAVE TO DO IS LOOK
ACROSS THE STREET IN THE CASE OF
MY SYNAGOGUE OR DOWN THE BLOCK
AND THEY DON'T SEE GUARDS ON
GUARD OR WITH MACHINE GUNS.
IT DOESN'T TAKE THEM LONG TO
FIGURE OUT WE NEED TO BE
PROTECTED AND THE OTHER FOLK DON'T.

Steve says THERE'S ONE MORE BIT
OF DATA FROM THE SAME SURVEY BY
THE EUROPEAN UNION THAT WE WANT
TO PASS ALONG TO OUR VIEWERS.
HERE WE GO AGAIN, SHELDON.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "Who harasses?"

Steve reads data from the slate and says
30 percent OF ANTISEMITIC INCIDENTS
WERE PERPETRATED BY INDIVIDUALS
WITH AN EXTREME MUSLIM POINT OF
VIEW.
21 BY LEFT WING POINT OF VIEW.
13 percent BY RIGHT WING POINT OF VIEW.

The caption changes to "Deborah Lipstadt, @deborahlipstadt."

Deborah says IT FITS WITH MY
KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE.
I THINK THAT MAKES SENSE.
I THINK IT'S DIFFERENT IN NORTH
AMERICA.
NOR HAS COME FROM THE RIGHT
WING.
CERTAINLY FROM THE RIGHT WING IN
TERMS OF PHYSICAL ATTACKS THAN
FROM THE LEFT.
THE LEFT EXPRESSES IT
DIFFERENTLY.
IN THE LEFT IT'S MORE
INSTITUTIONALIZED.
IT'S MORE RHETORIC.
WHICH IS EQUALLY DANGEROUS
BECAUSE IT MAKES JEWS FEEL NOT
PART OF THE MAJORITY.
BUT IT'S PRETTY SOBERING.
I WAS IN STOCKHOLM THIS PAST
WEEK.
I JUST CAME HERE DIRECTLY FROM
STOCKHOLM AND I HAD DECIDED I
WOULD GO TO THE GRAND SYNAGOGUE
IN THE CENTRE OF STOCKHOLM
SATURDAY MORNING.
I WAS SURE TO LET MY HOSTS ON
BEHALF OF A GOVERNMENTAL
INSTITUTION TO LET THEM KNOW I
WANTED TO GO SO THEY COULD
INFORM THE SYNAGOGUE BUT SOME
HOW THE PEOPLE INSIDE KNEW I WAS
COMING, THE GUARDS AT THE DOOR
DIDN'T.
I WOULD SAY IT TOOK 6, 7 MINUTES
OF THEM QUESTIONING WHERE ARE
YOU FROM, AND WHAT SYNAGOGUE DO
YOU GO TO, WHAT'S THE NAME OF
YOUR RABBI AND WHAT ARE YOU
DOING HERE BEFORE THEY LET US
IN.
FINALLY SOMEONE WALKED UP AND
SAID THAT'S DEBORAH LIPSTADT.
SHE'S GOING TO SPEAK TO THE
PEOPLE IN THE SYNAGOGUE
TOMORROW.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Steve says JUST BECAUSE WE'RE
INTENDING TO DROWN YOU IN
NUMBERS WE'RE GOING TO SHOW ONE
MORE SURVEY HERE.
THIS IS THE ANTI DEFAMATION
LEAGUE CONDUCTING A WORLDWIDE
SURVEY OF ANTISEMITIC VIEWS.
THE STUDY REVEALED THAT ABOUT A
QUARTER OF THE WORLD'S
POPULATION WITH MUCH MA IN
DIFFERENT COUNTRIES...

A slate appears on screen, with the title "Antisemitism around the globe. World population 26 percent."

Steve reads data from the slate and says
IN TURKEY 71 percent.
IN DENMARK JUST 8 percent.
IN CANADA, 14 percent.
IN THE U.S., 9 percent.
WE ALWAYS THINK WE'RE MORALLY
SUPERIOR TO AMERICANS BUT
APPARENTLY WE'RE NOT.
INTERESTINGLY, IN MONGOLIA,
WHERE YOU WOULDN'T THINK THAT HE
HAD RUN INTO TOO MANY JEWS IN
MONGOLIA IT IS 26 percent.
HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE PRESENCE
OF ANTI JEWISH FEELINGS IN
PLACES WHERE THERE ARE NO JEWS?

Deborah says WE'VE SEEN THAT
BEFORE.
LOOK, ANTISEMITISM IS CALLED THE
OLDEST OR LONGEST HATRED.
IT GOES BACK WELL OVER 2,000
YEARS AND IT'S BEEN EMBEDDED IN
SOCIETY AND IT'S BEEN
POLITICIZED.
THE FACT THAT CAN HAVE
ANTISEMITISM WITHOUT JEWS IT'S A
CONSPIRACY THEORY IT'S NOT
RATIONAL.
YOU NEED SOMEONE TO BLAME.
YOU NEED SOMEONE TO SORT OF PUT
ALL THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR
WHATEVER PROBLEMS YOU'RE FACING
AND JEWS ARE AN EASY TARGET.

Steve says I AM GOING TO GIVE YOU
THE TOP FIVE REASONS WHY PEOPLE
HARBOUR ANTISEMITIC FEELINGS AND
YOU TELL ME WHICH IS THE ONE
THAT COMES THE CLOSEST TO
EXPLAINING HATRED CAN HAVE JEWS.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "Top 5 stereotypes reflecting antisemitic feelings."

Steve reads data from the slate and says
NUMBER ONE, JEWS ARE MORE LOYAL
TO ISRAEL THAN THE COUNTRY IN
WHICH THEY LIVE.
NUMBER TWO, JEWS HAVE TOO MUCH
POWER IN THE BUSINESS WORLD.
NUMBER THREE, JEWS STILL TALK
TOO MUCH ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED TO
THEM IN THE HOLOCAUST.
FOUR., JEWS DON'T CARE ABOUT WHAT
HAPPENS TO THEM EXCEPT THEIR OWN
KIND.
FIVE, JEWS THINK THEY ARE BETTER
THAN OTHER PEOPLE.
WHICH ONE COMINGS THE CLOSEST TO
EXPLAINING ANTISEMITISM?

Deborah says I THINK THEY'RE ALL
PART OF ANTISEMITISM.
PEOPLE SOMETIMES HAVE A HARD
TIME DEIFYING ANTISEMITISM.
SOME PEOPLE SAY THEY KNOW IT
WHEN THEY SEE IT.
FROM THE SUPREME COURT OF THE
UNITED STATES.

Steve says GIVE US THE BEST
DEFINITION OF ANTISEMITISM.

Deborah says I WOULD SAY THE TEMPLATE OF
AN ANTISEMITIC CHARGE IS TO DO
WITH THREE ELEMENTS, SOMETHING
TO DO WITH MONEY.
SOMETHING TO DO WITH POWER.
AND SOMETHING TO DO WITH A
NEFARIOUS OR MALICIOUS USE OF
THAT POWER.
THAT JEWS ARE SMARTER THAN BUT
IT'S NOT A GOOD SMART.
IT'S A CUNNING SMART.
AND THEY USE THOSE SMARTEST TO
HURT OTHER PEOPLE TO GET THEIR
WAY, TO GET OTHERS TO DO THEIR
WAY.
THE STEREOTYPES, FOR INSTANCE IN
MY COUNTRY, THE STEREOTYPES OF
AFRICAN AMERICAN, THE
PREJUDICIAL STEREOTYPES ARE
DIFFERENT.
THERE IT'S THEY'RE SHIFTLESS,
LAZY, GANGS, THEY'RE CRIMINALS,
ET CETERA.
EACH GROUP OF THE STEREOTYPES OF
ITALIANS LESS SO NOW BUT YOU SEE
ALL MAFIOSO.
EACH GROUP HAS THEIR OWN
STEREOTYPE THAT'S BEEN APPLIED
TO IT.
WITH JEWS IT'S MONEY, POWER AND
THE NEFARIOUS OF THAT POWER TO
THE DISADVANTAGE OF OTHERS.

Steve says LET'S ASK THE NEXT
QUESTION WHICH IS: ONE OF THE
GREAT DEBATES IN THE WORLD RIGHT
NOW IS WHETHER YOU CAN BE ANTI
ISRAELI BUT NOT BE ANTISEMITIC
OR WHETHER BEING AGAINST ISRAEL
OR AGAINST ZIONISM OR EVEN
DIRECTLY AGAINST THE NETANYAHU
GOVERNMENT WHERE DO YOU COME DOWN?

The caption changes to "Israel: Manna for new anti-Semites."

Deborah says I COME DOWN IN A
PRETTY NUANCED FASHION.
CRITICISM OF ISRAELI POLICIES IS
NOT ANTISEMITISM.
YOU WILL HEAR ISRAELI DIPLOMATS
AND AMBASSADORS MAKE THAT CLEAR.
IF YOU WANT TO READ CRITICISM OF
ISRAELI POLICY READ THE ISRAELI
DAILY, THE MORE LEFT LIBERAL
DAILY THAT IS PRETTY MUCH
OPPOSED TO NETANYAHU'S
GOVERNMENT AND YOU WILL SEE
CRITICISM OF ISRAELI POLICIES
DAILY.
THAT'S NOT ANTISEMITISM.
I THINK WHEN YOU QUESTION THE
RIGHT OF THERE TO BE A JEWISH
STATE.
WHEN YOU QUESTION THE RIGHT OF
JEWS TO HAVE A STATED,
ESPECIALLY NOW THAT A STATE
EXISTS WITH OVER 6 MILLION JEWS
IN IT THAT'S A PRETTY DICEY KIND
OF... YOU'RE GETTING PRETTY...
YOU'RE GETTING AWAY FROM
CRITICISM OF POLICIES TO
CRITICISM OF THE RIGHT TO EXIST.
AND THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT
ISRAEL HASN'T MADE MISTAKES OR
DONE THINGS THAT ARE WRONG AND
THE IDF HASN'T DONE THINGS THAT
ISN'T WRONG.
THERE'S NO ARM ANY THE WORLD
THAT HASN'T DONE THINGS THAT ARE
WRONG.
IT'S MADE UP OF PEOPLE.
PEOPLE DO GOOD THINGS AND THEY
DO BAD THINGS.
BUT WHEN YOU FOCUS ON THE WRONGS
COMMITTED BY ISRAEL.
OR THE FAULTS COMMITTED BY
ISRAEL, TO THE EXCLUSION OF ALL
OTHERS... NOT ONLY ALL OTHERS IN
THE PARTIES IN THE MIDDLE EAST
BUT ALL OTHER WRONGS, ALL OTHER
SHORT COMINGS, YOU HAVE TO ASK
WHY.
WHY THIS FIXATION?
WHY THIS SINGULAR FOCUS?
WHY NOT OTHERS AS WELL?
AND ONE ACADEMIC IN THE UNITED
STATES SAID WELL, YOU HAVE TO
START SOMEWHERE.
THAT'S NOT A SUFFICIENT ANSWER.

THE CAPTION CHANGES TO "WATCH US ANYTIME: TVO.ORG, TWITTER: @THEAGENDA, FACEBOOK LIVE."

Steve says WHAT IF YOU BELIEVE
THAT ALL PALESTINIANS WHEREVER
THEY LIVE IN THE WORLD ARE
ENTITLED TO RETURN TO THEIR
ANCESTRAL HOME LAND, TO THE
TOWNS AND VILLAGES TO WHICH
THEIR ANCESTORS LIVED YEARS AGO
AND YOU CRITICIZE ISRAELI
POLICIES WHICH AT THE MOMENT
PROHIBIT THAT DOES THAT MAKE YOU
AN ANTI-SEMITE?

Deborah says I WOULD SAY YES,
BECAUSE THAT WOULD PRESUPPOSE
THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL.
AS A JEWISH STATE.
AND PEOPLE SAY WELL, WE'LL HAVE
A BINATIONAL STATE.
SHE ME ONE OTHER STATE IN THE...
UNDER A MUSLIM GOVERNMENT IN
WHICH A RELIGIOUS MINORITY HAS
THRIVED?
I MEAN THERE USED TO AND
CHRISTIAN MINORITY THROUGHOUT
THE MIDDLE EAST.
IN MOST COUNTRIES THEY'VE LEFT
OR DISAPPEARED.
THERE CERTAINLY WERE JEWISH
MINORITIES IN ALL THOSE STATES
THEY WERE THROWN OUT.
SO THE RIGHT OF RETURN... THERE
HAVE BEEN GROUPS THAT HAVE BEEN
FORCED TO LEAVE, DISPOSSESSED,
LEFT OF THEIR OWN ACCORD
THROUGHOUT HISTORY.
AND GENERALLY WE WORK TO GET
MAYBE THE PEOPLE WHO LEFT
THEMSELVES TO GO BACK.
BUT ONLY IN THE... THIS CASE IS
IT FIVE GENERATIONS LATER.
I DON'T SEE THE MUSLIM STATES.
EGYPT, IRAQ, IRAN, MOROCCO...
WELL, MOROCCO STILL HAS A JEWISH
POPULATION.
ALGERIA.
ALL COUNTRIES WHICH PUSHED THE
JEWS OUT WELCOMING THEM BACK.

Steve says HERE'S WHERE IT GETS
TRICKIER.
BECAUSE THERE ARE JEWS WHO
BELIEVE IN THE PALESTINIANS'
RIGHT OF RETURN.
ARE THEY ANTI SEMITES AS WELL?

Deborah says YEAH, YOU CAN BE AN
ANTI-SEMITES.
YOU CAN BE A RACIST AND BE
BLACK.
YOU CAN THINK OH, I AM
SUCCESSFUL BUT ALL MY FELLOW
AFRICAN AMERICANS OR BLACK
PEOPLE, THEY'RE NOT... THEY
DON'T WORK HARD.
OR INDIGENOUS PEOPLE, TORQUES I
AM SUCCESSFUL BUT IF THOSE
OTHERS WOULD JUST QUIT DOING
WHATEVER THE STEREOTYPE IS THEY
WOULD BE SUCCESSFUL, TOO.
THERE IS NOTHING TO KEEP A
PERSON WHO IS OF A MINORITY
AGAINST WHOM PREJUDICE IS
DIRECTED FROM ABSORBING AND
INTERNALIZING THAT PREJUDICE.

Steve says I WANT TO ASK YOU
ABOUT A COUPLE OF LEADERS IN THE
WESTERN WORLD WHO OFTEN GET
TAGGED WITH BEING ANTISEMITIC.
DO YOU THINK JEREMY CORBYN IS AN
ANTI SEMITES?

Deborah says I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S
IN HIS HEART.
BUT I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE
RIGHT QUESTION.
THE QUESTION IS HAS HE ACCEPTED
ANTISEMITISM, HAS HE LOOKED THE
OTHER WAY WHEN HE'S ENCOUNTERED
ANTISEMITISM?

Steve says HE CERTAINLY HANGS OUT
WITH ANSWER.

Deborah says I THINK YES, THERE
IS ONE GROUP.
IF YOU ARE A RIGHT WING FASCIST,
THAT HE RECOGNIZES AS AN ANTI
SEMITES.
BUT ANYTHING TO THE LEFT OF
THAT HE SEEMS TO HAVE TROUBLE
RECOGNIZING IT.

Steve says THE OTHER GUY I HAVE
TO ASK ABOUT IS YOUR PRESIDENT,
DONALD TRUMP?

Deborah says I DON'T THINK SO. I
THINK HE IS VERY PROUD THAT HIS
DAUGHTER CONVERTED TO JUDAISM.
I THINK HE'S PROUD OF HIS JEWISH
GRANDCHILDREN WHO ARE BEING
RAISED AS JEWS... FAIRLY
TRADITIONAL JEWS.
BUT I THINK, HE, TOO, HAS
FOMENTED SENTIMENTS THAT LEAD
TO ANTISEMITISM. THOSE PEOPLE
MARCHING IN CHARLOTTESVILLE,
CHANTING JEWS WILL NOT REPLACE
US...

Steve says COVER OF THE BOOK,
PLEASE. WIDE SHOT OF THE
JUMBOTRON. THAT'S FROM
CHARLOTTESVILLE.
HE DOESN'T SEE IT, THOUGH.

The caption changes to "Can knowledge inoculate us?"

Deborah says HE HAS TALKED ABOUT
GOOD PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES.
WHEN DAVID DUKE, THE FORMER
LEADER OF THE KU KLUX KLAN WAS
SAYING WONDERFUL THINGS ABOUT
HIM HE DIDN'T WANT TO REJECT THE
SUPPORT.
EVEN THOUGH TEN YEARS EARLIER HE
HAD SAID DAVID DUKE IS NOT A
PERSON TO SUPPORT POLITICALLY.
THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT
ALL RIGHT WINGERS, WHITE
SUPREMACISTS.
WHEN WE TALK ABOUT WHITE
SUPREMACISTS, THAT INCLUDES
ANTISEMITISM.
ON THE SPECTRUM THEY DON'T SEE
JEWS AS OTHER SUCH AS THE KILL
INNER PITTSBURGH JEWS WERE NOT
WHITE.
IF SOMETHING I SAID OR SOMETHING
I... OR PEOPLE WITH WHOM I
DISAGREE SORT OF INTERPRETED MY
ACTIONS AS SUPPORTING THEM, AS
THE FAR RIGHT INTERPRETS DONALD
TRUMP'S ACTIONS AS SUPPORTING
THEM, AS BEING IN THEIR CAMP,
AS, YOU KNOW, WANTING AN AMERICA
THAT'S WHITE AND WANTING AN
AMERICA THAT'S ALL OF A CERTAIN
KIND, AND I DIDN'T BELIEVE THAT,
WOULD SAY HEY, YOU GUYS GOT ME
WRONG.
I'M NOT IN YOUR CAMP.
WE HAVEN'T HEARD THAT.

Steve says NO.
I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY TIMES I
HAVE HAD THIS CONVERSATION WITH
PEOPLE IN THE JEWISH COMMUNITY
HERE IN TORONTO BUT IT'S A LOT.
THE ONE THING THAT IS FREQUENTLY
FED BACK TO ME IS: IF ONLY WE
PUSH EDUCATION, EDUCATION,
EDUCATION ENOUGH WE CAN CONVINCE
PEOPLE THE HOLOCAUST ACTUALLY
HAPPENED.
WE CAN CONVINCE THE DENIERS OF
THAT.
WE CAN CONVINCE PEOPLE THAT
ANTISEMITISM MAKES NO SENSE.
HOW DO YOU SEE THE POWER OF
EDUCATION IN THIS FIELD?

Deborah says LOOK, EDUCATION IS
MY BUSINESS, EDUCATION IS MY
TOOL.
I WOULD LOVE TO SAY ABSOLUTELY
CORRECT.
BUT I LOOK BACK ON HISTORY.
AND A GOOD PART OF THE MURDERS
THAT WERE... THAT BECAME THE
HOLOCAUST, THE GENOCIDAL ACTIONS
ACTIONS OF THE NAZIS, WERE
COMMITTED BY GROUPS CALLED
THE EINSATZGRUPPEN, THE
MOBILE KILLING UNITS AND THEY
OPERATED ON THE EASTERN FRONT.
THERE WERE FOUR MAJOR UNITS WITH
WITH HELP FROM LOCAL MILITIA AND
GENDARMES, ET CETERA.
THREE OF THOSE FOUR GROUPS WERE
LED BY PEOPLE WITH A PH.D.
ONE WAS AN ORDAINED MINISTER.
A FRIEND ONCE SAID TO ME YOU CAN
BE A PH.D. AND AN S.O.B. AT THE
SAME TIME.
I THINK EDUCATION IS AN
ANTI-DOTE.
I'M NOT SAYING YOU CAN'T EDUCATE
AGAINST THIS.
BUT I THINK IT HAS TO BE
EDUCATION IN THE SCHOOLS AND
WHAT GOES ON AT HOME.
A LOT OF WHAT PEOPLE PICK UP AT
HOME IS THERE.
IN TERMS OF DENIERS, ANSWERING
DENIERS OR PROVING THEM WRONG,
ON SOME LEVELS THAT'S EASY TO
DO.
FOR DENIERS TO BE RIGHT, WHO
WOULD HAVE TO BE WRONG?
ALL THE SURVIVORS HOTEL YOU THE
STORY OF WHAT HAPPENED, THIS
HAPPENED TO ME.
ALL THE BYSTANDERS, THE PEOPLE
WHO LIVED IN THE TOWNS AND
VILLAGES NEAR WHERE THE KILLING
TOOK PLACE.

Steve says WHO KNEW.

Deborah says WHO SAW.
CERTAINLY YOU CAN'T EXPECT THEM
TO HAVE BEEN ABLE TO STOP IT
BECAUSE THERE WAS A GERMAN WAVE.
IN MANY CASES, OF COURSE THEY
PARTICIPATED AND THEY ASSISTED.
BUT WHO ELSE?
THE HISTORIANS.
THOUSANDS OF HISTORIANS.
YOU HAVE VERY FINE HISTORIANS
HERE IN TORONTO, EVEN AND
THROUGHOUT CANADA AND THROUGHOUT
THE UNITED STATES AND THROUGHOUT
EUROPE AND MIDDLE EAST AND EVEN
IN CHINA AND JAPAN WHO HAVE
STUDIED ASPECTS OF THE
HOLOCAUST.
THEY WOULD ALL HAVE TO HAVE BEEN
PART OF THE HOAX.
THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.
ULTIMATELY WHO WOULD HAVE TO BE
WRONG?
THE PERPETRATORS.
IN NOT ONE WAR CRIMES TRIAL
SINCE THE END OF WORLD WAR II
HAS A PERPETRATOR EVER SHADE IT
DIDN'T HAPPEN.
I DIDN'T DO IT.
I I HAD NO CHOICE, I WAS THERE I
WAS ONLY WATCHING BUT IT DIDN'T
HAPPEN.
WHERE ARE THESE PEOPLE WHO WERE
SUPPOSEDLY NEVER KILLED.
WHERE IS THE CONTEMPORARY
EVIDENCE.
THE DENIERS DON'T HAVE A SHRED
OF CONTEMPORARY EVIDENCE TO PROF
THEIR POINT.
IT'S A RIDICULOUS NARRATIVE.
ANYBODY WHO COMES TO IT I WOULD
SAY IS SUCCUMBS TO AN
ANTI-SEMITIC HOAX.

Steve says BUT YOU ARE TRYING TO
INTRODUCE EMPIRICAL FACTS
AGAINST AN IRRATIONAL ARGUMENT.

Deborah says THAT'S RIGHT.

Steve says YOU CAN'T WIN.

Deborah says THAT'S WHY WHEN I
DID MY ORIGINAL WORK ON DENIERS,
I WASN'T TRYING TO CONVINCE
THEM.
I'M NOT TRYING TO CONVINCE THE
ANTI SEMITES IN THIS BOOK.
I AM TRYING TO DO IS EDUCATE
THOSE WHO MIGHT BE IMPACTED BY
THE ANTI SEMITES.
I JUST GOT OFF A PLANE COMING
HERE TO TORONTO.
AND I WAS SITS NEXT TO SOMEONE I
DIDN'T HAVE MUCH OF A CHAT WITH
HIM HELLO, HOW ARE YOU,
WHATEVER.
BUT WHAT IF THAT PERSON HAD BEEN
A BURNING ANTI SEMITE, RACIST OR
HOLOCAUST DENIER.
AND THEY HAD BEGUN TO WORK ON ME
OR GIVE ME THEIR ARGUMENTS.
I AM THE PERSON, NOT THE PERSON
SPREADING IT OR PERSON WHO MIGHT
BE SUSCEPTIBLE.
I WANT TO BE ABLE TO SAY I KNOW
WHAT YOU'RE DOING I KNOW WHAT
YOU'RE SAYING I KNOW WHO YOU ARE.
THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE I'M AIMING AT.

Steve says I WANT TO LET
EVERYBODY KNOW THAT THIS IS A
JOKE, OKAY.
THIS IS A JOKE.
IT'S IN HER BOOK.
BUT IT'S A JOKE.
AND IT'S BEEN AROUND FOR A LONG
TIME.
AN ANTI-SEMITE IS SOMEONE WHO
HATES JEWS MORE THAN IS NECESSARY.

Deborah says MORE THAN IS
ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY.

Steve says MORE THAN IS
ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY.
OKAY.
WHICH RAISES THE QUESTION: ARE
THERE ACCEPTABLE REASONS WHY
SOME PEOPLE WOULD NOT LIKE JEWS?

The caption changes to "An enduring problem."

Deborah says LOOK, 0 TO DISLIKE
ALL JEWS IS LIKE DISLIKING ALL
KINDS OF PEOPLE.
PREJUDGE DON'T TELL ME THE FACTS
I'VE MADE UP MY MIND.
YOU WANT TO DISLIKE JEWS GO TO A
SYNAGOGUE BOARD MEETING OR A
JEWISH BOARD EDUCATIONAL
MEETING.
PEOPLE YELLING AND SCREAMING AT
EACH OTHER.
JEWS ARE A ROWDY PEOPLE IN THAT
SENSE.
BUT EVEN THAT JOKE, DISLIKING
JEWS MORE THAN IS ABSOLUTELY
NECESSARY.
THINK ABOUT IT.
IMAGINE YOU'RE DRIVING ON THE
HIGHWAY AND SOMEBODY SWIPES YOU
AND YOU GO OFF.
YOU FLIP, YOU ALMOST GET KILLED
AND YOU COME TO AND YOU ARE
SHAKEN BUT YOU GET HOME AND YOU
COME IN AND EVERYONE SAYS WHAT
HAPPENED AND YOU SAY I WAS ON
THE HIGHWAY AND I WAS FORCED OFF
THE HIGHWAY BUT A TERRIBLE
DRIVER.
HE DID IT ON PURPOSE BECAUSE I
WASN'T IN HIS WAY.
A BLACK DRIVER.
THAT'S RACIST.
BECAUSE BEING BLACK HAS NOTHING
TO DO WITH WHAT HAPPENED.
IF A POLICE OFFICER STOPS YOU
AND SAYS I SAW WHAT HAPPENED,
DESCRIBE THE DRIVER TO ME AND
YOU TELL HER OH, THAT DRIVER WAS
DRIVING THIS KIND OF CAR AND
THIS OR THAT AND HE WAS BLACK,
THAT'S NOT RACIST.
THAT'S DIFFERENT.
SO, YOU KNOW, IF I AM IN TROUBLE
WITH THE LAW, AND I KNOW I NEED
A GOOD LAWYER AND I SAID I NEED
A REALLY SMART, REALLY TALENTED
LAWYER.
THAT'S ONE THING BUT IF I SAY I
REALLY NEED A REALLY SMART
TALENTED JEWISH LAWYER THAT'S
ALREADY... THAT'S PHILOSEMITISM.
SOMEONE WHO LOVES THEM AS AN AN
AT THIS SEMITE WHO LIKES JEWS.
WHAT SO GOING TO TURN AROUND?
HE'S GOING TO SAY THAT DAMN
JEWISH LAWYER.
I DON'T KNOW IF I CAN SAY THAT.

Steve says YOU JUST DID.
WELL, WE HAVEN'T MET BEFORE, ACTUALLY.

Deborah says RIGHT.

Steve says BUT WE'VE TALKED
BEFORE VIA SATELLITE.
YOU WERE ON THIS PROGRAM 12
YEARS AGO AND YOU WERE TALKING
ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THERE MIGHT
BE... YOU JUST MENTIONED THE
JEWISH LAWYER, WHETHER JEWS ARE
DISPROPORTIONATELY REPRESENTED
IN VARIOUS PROFESSIONS OR
VARIOUS FIELDS.
YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU SAID
12 YEARS AGO?

Deborah says TELL ME WHAT I SAID
I MAY SHUDDER.

Steve says LET'S SEE, SHELDON,
PLEASE.

A clip plays on screen with the caption "April 5, 2007."
In the clip, a younger Steve and Deborah appear on split screens. A caption under Deborah's screen reads "Atlanta."

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Deborah Lipstadt. Author, 'History on trial.'"

Deborah says ABSOLUTELY.
EMERY UNIVERSITY MANY, MANY
YEARS AGO, HAD ADMITTED A LARGE
NUMBER OF JEWS.
THIS IS LONG BEFORE I CAME HERE.
AND THE STUDENT NEWSPAPER BEGAN
TO INTERVIEW PEOPLE ON CAMPUS.
ARE THERE TOO MANY JEWS AT
EMERY?
AND THEY ASKED ONE PUNDIT ON
CAMPUS AND HE SAID: I THINK IT
WAS THE HILO RABBI.
HE SAID: I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE
CONCEPT OF TOO MANY JEWS THERE
ARE ONLY THREE PLACES WHERE
THERE COULD BE TOO MANY JEWS:
HOSPITALS, CEMETERIES AND
CONCENTRATION CAMPS.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT MEANS "TOO
MANY."
ARE THERE TOO MANY BLACKS IN THE
NBA?
ARE THERE TOO MANY I DON'T KNOW,
ITALIANS IN POLITICS IN NEW
YORK?
I DON'T KNOW WHAT "TOO MANY."
MEANS.
YES, PEOPLE... DIFFERENT GROUPS
SEEM TO GRAVITATE TO DIFFERENT
AREAS.
I DON'T... I'M NOT DENYING THE
FACT... I'M NOT HIDING THE
FACTOR MADE UNCOMFORTABLE BY THE
FACT THAT MANY JEWS HAVE
ACCOMPLISHED AND DONE VERY WELL
BOTH ECONOMICALLY, ACADEMICALLY.
THEY ARE HIGH ACHIEVERS.

The clip ends.

Steve says DO YOU STILL AGREE
WITH YOUR SELF 12 YEARS LATER?

Deborah says YEAH, YEAH.
PEOPLE GRAVITATE TOWARD CERTAIN
THINGS.
SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT "TOO MANY."
IS.
"A" AS I WAS ARGUING 12 YEARS
AGO SO THERE'S A CERTAIN
CONSISTENCY.
PLUS THE FACT THAT EVEN IF THERE
ARE MANY PEOPLE IN ONE
PARTICULAR FIELD, IS THAT A
REASON TO HATE THEM?
YOU KNOW, TOO MANY LAWYERS.
IF YOU ARE IN TROUBLE WITH THE
LAW YOU NEED A LAWYER.
IF YOU ARE BUYING A HOME YOU
NEED A LAWYER.
IF YOU'RE HAVING A FIGHT WITH
SOMEONE, YOU KNOW, YOU NEED A
LAWYER.
BANKERS, YOU KNOW, WE CAN
DISLIKE BANKERS.
BUT IF I NEED A MORTGAGE I WANT
A BANKER.
IF I WANT A START-UP, I NEED
FINANCIAL HELP.
SO THIS WHOLE IDEA OF
DEMONIZING, I THINK IS
DANGEROUS.

Steve says DOES IT, THOUGH, HELP
EXPLAIN WHY SOME PEOPLE ARE
NERVOUS OR SUSPICIOUS OF JEWS IF
THEY SEE JEWS OVERREPRESENTED IN
CERTAIN PROFESSIONS?

Deborah says NO, BECAUSE I THINK
THEY COME TO IT WITH A
PRE-EXISTING NOTION.
SO THAT, YOU KNOW, THE MANY JEW
WHO IS ARE DOCTORS.
THERE ARE JEWS WHO ARE,
QUOTE-UNQUOTE, "OVERREPRESENTED
IN THE MEDICAL FIELD" DO WE GO
IN AND SAY I DON'T WANT A JEWISH
DOCTOR.
I WANT A SMART DOCTOR.
I DON'T CARE WHAT THAT DOCTOR'S
BACKGROUND IS.
I WITH A WANT A DOCTOR WHO CAN
CURE ME.
A LAWYER, I WANT TO MAKE SURE I
HAVE A LAWYER WHO'S DOTTING ALL
THE Is AND CROSSING ALL THE
Ts IN MY LEGAL DOCUMENTS.
I THINK ANYBODY WHO PRESUPPOSES
BECAUSE THEY'RE JEWS THEY MUST
BE DOING SOMETHING NEFARIOUS IS
SEEING IT THROUGH AN ANTISEMITIC
LENS.
THEY ARE JEWS?
THEY ARE EVIL.
THE PREJUDICE PRESUPPOSES,
PREEXISTS AND THEN THEY BRING IT
TO THEIR SITUATION.

Steve says LET'S FINISH UP ON
ANOTHER CLIP HERE, SHALL WE?
IT IS SAID THAT JEWISH OPTIMISM,
THE JEWISH OPTIMIST IS SOMEONE
WHO THINKS THAT THINGS CAN'T GET
ANY WORSE.
ARE YOU AN OPTIMIST?

Deborah says I AM AN OPTIMIST.
I AM AN OPTIMIST.
THEY SAY THE JEWISH OPTIMIST IS
SOMEONE WHO SAYS THINGS CAN'T
GET ANY WORSE AND THE PESSIMIST
KNOWS THAT THEY CAN.
AND KNOWS THAT THEY ARE.
I'M A PRETTY OPTIMISTIC PERSON.
I'M CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT WE'RE
SEEING TODAY.
BUT I COULDN'T HAVE SPENT THE
PAST THREE TO FOUR DECADES
WORKING ON THE HOLOCAUST,
WORKING ON HOLOCAUST DENIERS AND
NOW SWIMMING IN THE SEWERS OF
ANTISEMITIC ANTISEMITISM IF THE
OF I WANT AN OPTIMISTIC PERSON.
HAVE I A HOPE THAT IF WE EDUCATE
PEOPLE, IF WE EXPOSE PEOPLE, IF
WE MAKE THEM UNDERSTAND "A" HOUR
APP HOW DANGEROUS THIS IS, IT'S
A GOOD THING.
AND MAYBE TO END ON A NOTE, YOU
KNOW, IF YOU ARE GOING TO FIGHT
ANTISEMITISM, DON'T FIGHT JUST
BECAUSE HAVE YOU A JEWISH
NEIGHBOUR JEWISH FRIEND AND YOU
DON'T WANT THEM TO BE HURT OR
LIVE IN FEAR.
THAT'S GOOD BUT THAT'S NOT THE
REASON.
OR IF YOU ARE GOING TO FIGHT
ANTISEMITISM JUST BECAUSE YOU
HATE PREJUDICE AGAINST ALL
MINORITIES, RELIGIOUS, ETHNIC,
WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE, THAT'S A
GOOD THING.
BUT THAT'S NOT SUFFICIENT.
THE REASON TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM
IS THAT IT POSES A DANGER TO THE
DEMOCRATIC SOCIETIES IN WHICH WE
LIVE. NO HEALTHY DEMOCRATIC
SOCIETY CAN HARBOUR THAT KIND
OF ANIMUS, THAT KIND OF HATRED
AND BE CALLED A HEALTHY SOCIETY.

Steve says THAT IS A GREAT PLACE
TO LEAVE THIS.
THE BOOK IS CALLED
"ANTISEMITISM: HERE AND NOW."
DEBORAH LIPSTADT, WOULD YOU
PROMISE TO COME BACK HERE BEFORE
12 YEARS FROM NOW?

The caption changes to "Producer: Wodek Szemberg, @wodekszemberg."

Deborah says ABSOLUTELY.
AND I WON'T WEAR A SWEATER TIED
AROUND MY SHOULDERS.

Steve says YOU'RE ON.
THANKS SO MUCH.

Deborah says YOU'RE WELCOME.
THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

Watch: Jews Are Afraid Again