Transcript: Flex-Regs for the Win | Jan 22, 2019

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and spotted purple tie.

A caption on screen reads "Flex-regs for the win. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says NOT THAT LONG AGO, A FAIRLY
BROAD CONSENSUS SEEMED TO EXIST
IN FAVOUR OF CARBON TAXES, A
TOOL PREFERRED BY ECONOMISTS FOR
CURBING EMISSIONS.
BUT THE POLITICAL TIDE MAY HAVE
TURNED, RENEWING THE
CONVERSATION ABOUT "IF NOT
CARBON TAXES THEN WHAT?"
ENERGY ECONOMIST MARK JACCARD
RECOMMENDS "FLEXIBLE
REGULATIONS" - OR "FLEX-REGS."
HE IS PROFESSOR OF SUSTAINABLE
ENERGY AT SIMON FRASER
UNIVERSITY, CO-AUTHOR OF THE
BOOK "HOT AIR, CANADA'S CLIMATE
CHANGE CHALLENGE," AND HE JOINS
US NOW VIA SKYPE FROM VANCOUVER, B.C.
BRITISH COLUMBIA.

A picture of the book appears briefly on screen. The cover features an orange and yellow toned picture of glaciers floating in the sea.
Mark is in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short brown hair. He's wearing a blue shirt.
He sits in a study with a bookshelf in the background.

Steve continues MARK, IT'S GOOD TO HAVE YOU ON
TVO TONIGHT.
HOW ARE YOU DOING?

A map shows the location of Vancouver.

Mark says JUST FINE, THANK YOU.
THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

Steve says NOT AT ALL.
I WANT TO START BY READING AN
EXCERPT YOU WROTE LAST MONTH.

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Carbon pricing versus flex-regs." The quote reads "CARBON PRICING IS NOT ESSENTIAL TO STOP BURNING COAL AND GASOLINE. WE ECONOMISTS ONLY SAY IT IS BECAUSE WE PREFER IT. IF WE WERE HONEST, WE WOULD EXPLAIN THAT DECARBONIZATION CAN BE ACHIEVED ENTIRELY WITH
REGULATIONS. THESE WILL COST MORE, BUT NOT A GREAT DEAL MORE IF POLICYMAKERS USE FLEXIBLE REGULATIONS OR FLEX REGS THAT ALLOW COMPANIES AND INDIVIDUALS TO DETERMINE THEIR CHEAPEST WAY TO DECARBONIZE."
Quoted from Mark Jaccard, The Globe and Mail. December 14, 2018.

Steve says OKAY, A LOT TO UNPACK THERE.
LET'S GET INTO THIS.
TELL US OFF THE TOP WHY YOU
THINK ECONOMISTS AS A RULE
PREFER CARBON TAXES TO REGULATION.

The caption changes to "Mark Jaccard. Simon Fraser University."
Then, it changes again to "From one economist to the others."

Mark says WE PREFER THAT BECAUSE A LOT
OF RESEARCH CONSISTENTLY SHOWS
THAT A PRICE ON EMISSIONS, SO
THAT SHOWS UP AS A TAX ON
GASOLINE OR NATURAL GAS FOR
HEATING OR COAL, GIVES A FIRM OR
A HOUSEHOLD THE GREATEST
OPPORTUNITY TO DECIDE HOW THEY
WANT TO RESPOND TO THAT PRICE.
AND SO THEY COULD END UP SAY,
WELL, I'M GOING TO USE MY CAR
LESS OR I'M GOING TO SWITCH TO
TRANSIT, OR I'M GOING TO BUY AN
ELECTRIC CAR OR USE BIOFUELS, OR
I'M GOING TO NOT DO ANYTHING
DIFFERENTLY BECAUSE I REALLY
VALUE THIS CAR OR TRUCK THAT
I'M... THAT I HAVE.
AND THAT, WHEN YOU ALLOW EVERY
FIRM OR HOUSEHOLD TO RESPOND IN
THE WAY THAT'S BEST FOR IT, THEN
THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE ECONOMY
YOU ACTUALLY REDUCE EMISSIONS AT
THE LOWEST POSSIBLE COST.
AND ECONOMISTS HAVE SHOWN THIS
NOT JUST BE CARBON DIOXIDE, THE
MAJOR GREENHOUSE GAS FROM
BURNING COAL, OIL AND GAS.
THEY'VE SHOWN IT WITH OTHER
POLLUTANTS AS WELL.

Steve says OKAY, THAT'S THE
ECONOMIC ARGUMENT.
LET'S LOOK AT THE POLITICAL SIDE
OF THINGS BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY THE
CURRENT FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
AGREES WITH THAT APPROACH AND
HAS BROUGHT IN A CARBON TAX
WHICH STARTED AT THE BEGINNING
OF THIS YEAR.
IF AS YOU TELL US REGULATIONS
CAN GET US WHERE WE NEED TO GO,
AND GIVEN THAT GOVERNMENTS ARE
USUALLY LOATHE TO BRING IN NEW
TAXES BECAUSE THEY ARE OFTEN
UNPOPULAR, WHY DO YOU SUPPOSE
THE CURRENT FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
HAS OPTED FOR A CARBON TAX
INSTEAD OF THE REGULATION APPROACH?

Mark says I'M GLAD THAT YOU WORDED YOUR
QUESTION THAT WAY, AND I'M GOING
TO REVAMP YOUR QUESTION A LITTLE
BIT WITH A PREMISE, BECAUSE...
BECAUSE I'VE HEARD THIS SO MUCH.
IT'S PART OF THE DEBATE OUT
THERE, THIS LANGUAGE THAT THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS OPTED FOR
A CARBON PRICING APPROACH.
THEY HAVE NOT.
IF ANY INDEPENDENT... LOOKS AT
THE SLATE OF POLICIES, THE
PORTFOLIO POLICIES THAT THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN
PUTTING TOGETHER OVER THE LAST
THREE YEARS, CARBON PRICING
PLAYS THE TINIEST... A VERY
SMALL ROLE.
WITH THE CURRENT POLICIES THAT
ARE THERE NOW, CARBON PRICING
WOULD DO ABOUT 15 percent OF THE
LIFTING TO GET THE REDUCTIONS TO
THE... IN THE 2030 AGREEMENT,
PERIOD, WHICH IS WHAT WE AGREED
TO AT PARIS.
INSTEAD, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
IS PHASING OUT COAL PLANTS.
THAT'S HUGE.
THEY ARE PUTTING IN METHANE
REGULATIONS ON INDUSTRY, LEAKS
OF METHANE, WHICH IS A POTENT
GREENHOUSE GAS.
THEY'RE PUTTING IN A LOW-CARBON
FUEL STANDARD, WHICH THEY SAY
WILL GET ANOTHER 30 MEGATONS
FROM ALL DIFFERENT USES OF
FUELS.
SO IN FACT, THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT HAS NOT BEEN RELYING
ON CARBON PRICING.
THIS IS A MYTH, AND THEY PARTLY
SAID THAT BECAUSE THIS IS REALLY
IMPORTANT TO US BUT THEY HAVEN'T
PUT IN A PRICE THAT WOULD DO
THAT, AND THEN PEOPLE WHO WERE
OPPOSED TO CARBON PRICING HAVE
FOCUSED EXCLUSIVELY ON THE
CARBON PRICE WHICH LED ALL OF
US, AND PERHAPS YOU AS WELL, TO
ASSUME THAT, OH, THEY MUST BE
DEPENDING ON CARBON PRICING,
WHICH THEY'RE NOT.

Steve says IF IT'S ONLY 15 percent OF
THE LIFT, AND IT SURE SEEMS
THESE DAYS AS IF THAT 15 percent
REPRESENTS ABOUT 100 percent OF THE
POLITICAL COST OF DOING IT, WHY
BOTHER DOING IT?

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Mark says THAT'S WHY I WROTE "THE GLOBE
AND MAIL" OP ED.
AND IT'S ALSO WHY... AND SO I'VE
BEEN IN THIS GAME FOR QUITE A
LONG TIME.
I HELPED TO DESIGN THE BRITISH
COLUMBIA CARBON TAX OF 12 YEARS
AGO.
I HAVE DONE POLICY WORK 10 YEARS
BEFORE THAT.
AND EVEN 10 YEARS AGO, OR 11
YEARS AGO WHEN STEPHANE DION,
YOU KNOW, MET WITH DIFFERENT
PEOPLE ACROSS THE COUNTRY, HE
CAME AND MET WITH ME, AND I SAID
TO HIM... AND HE ASKED, YOU
KNOW, SHOULDN'T I DO THIS CARBON
TAX?
AND I SAID ABSOLUTELY NOT.
YOU WILL LOSE THE ELECTION.
A CARBON PRICE MIGHT BE A GOOD
POLICY FROM AN ECONOMIC
EFFICIENCY POINT OF VIEW, BUT
IT'S BAD POLITICS.
IT PUTS A BULL'S EYE ON YOUR
BACK AND ENABLES INSINCERE
POLITICIANS WHO REALLY DON'T
INTEND TO DO ANYTHING TO TALK
ABOUT HOW THIS IS RUINING THE
ECONOMY AND MAKING LIFE
IMPOSSIBLE FOR SUBURBAN PEOPLE
THAT NEED TO GET THE KIDS TO
HOCKEY PRACTICE AND SO ON.
AND THEN THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT
STEPHEN HARPER DID AND WON THE
ELECTION.
SO I WAS QUITE SHOCKED WHEN
TRUDEAU'S ADVISORS AND TRUDEAU
STILL THOUGHT, OH WELL, IT'S A
NEW ERA AND WE'LL PUT THIS
CARBON PRICE ON.
A LOT OF CANADIANS SUPPORT
CARBON PRICING, BUT IN THE
FIRST-PAST-THE-POST-ELECTORAL
SYSTEM, YOU ONLY NEED TO
CONVINCE SORT OF 3 TO 5 percent OF
SWING SUPPORTERS IN KEY SUBURBAN
RIDINGS THAT THEY SHOULD VOTE TO
GET RID OF THIS AND YOU COULD
WIN AN ELECTION IN CANADA.

Steve says HMM.
SO IS THAT TO SAY THAT YOU
ACTUALLY PREFER THE APPROACH
THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, PREMIER DOUG
FORD, THAT THE LEADER OF THE
UNITED CONSERVATIVE PARTY IN
ALBERTA, JASON KENNEY, THAT
LEADER OF THE FEDERAL
OPPOSITION, ANDREW SCHEER, YOU
PREFER THE APPROACH THEY ARE
TAKING TO FIGHTING CLIMATE CHANGE?

Mark says WELL, I'M GLAD YOU ASKED ME
THAT TOO, BECAUSE NO.
WHAT THE PROBLEM WITH PUTTING A
CARBON PRICE ON IS, AS I SAID, A
LITTLE BIT EARLIER, IT ENABLES
INSINCERE POLITICIANS TO SAY,
OH, WE'LL GET RID OF THAT BUT
WE'LL STILL REDUCE GREENHOUSE
GAS EMISSIONS.
SO THE REASON I'M USING THE WORD
"INSINCERE" IS BECAUSE CLIMATE
POLICY IS REALLY DIFFICULT ALL
OVER THE WORLD, AND WE'VE BEEN
FAILING MOSTLY FOR THREE
DECADES.
AND WE PARTLY HAVE BEEN FAILING
BECAUSE IT'S EASY FOR
POLITICIANS TO FAKE IT.
AND I DON'T WANT TO PUT TOO FINE
A POINT ON IT, BUT STEPHEN
HARPER SAID, OH, I'M GOING TO DO
REGULATIONS INSTEAD OF STEPHANE
DION'S CARBON PRICING, AND THEN
HE ALLOWED THOSE REGULATIONS TO
DRAG ON FOR ABOUT A DECADE WITH
VERY... WITH NOTHING HAPPENING.
AND SO IT MADE IT LOOK LIKE HE
WAS ACTING TO REDUCE GREENHOUSE
GASES BUT HE WASN'T.
WHEN GORDON CAMPBELL PUT IN A
CARBON PRICE IN BRITISH COLUMBIA
12 YEARS AGO, I WAS ALSO
INVOLVED IN DESIGNING FOR HIM A
REGULATION THAT STOPPED COAL
PLANTS IN THE ELECTRICITY
SECTOR, A LOW-CARBON FUEL
STANDARD THAT COPIED CALIFORNIA.
SO WHAT I'M SAYING IS... OR WHAT
I FEEL LIKE I'M SEEING ACROSS
CANADA IS THAT THE CARBON PRICE
IS ENABLING POLITICIANS WHO ARE
REALLY NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING
TO WIN BY SAYING WE WON'T DO A
CARBON PRICE, WE'LL DO SOMETHING
BETTER.
BUT THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO LAY
OUT EXACTLY, OH, WE'RE GOING TO
KEEP THE COAL PLANT PHASE OUT.
WE'RE GOING TO RAMP UP THE
LOW-CARBON FUEL STANDARD.
WE'RE GOING TO COPY QUEBEC'S
ZERO EMISSION VEHICLE STANDARD
RIGHT ACROSS THE COUNTRY, BUT
THEY'RE NOT SAYING THAT, AND
IT'S A VERY FAMILIAR SCRIPT.

Steve says SO WHAT STOPPED
TALKING ABOUT INSINCERE
POLITICIANS AND START TALKING
ABOUT SINCERE SIMON FRASER
UNIVERSITY PROFESSORS WHO HAVE
SOMETHING CALLED FLEX REGS OR
FLEXIBLE REGULATIONS THAT COULD
OFFER A DIFFERENT PATH.
WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THAT?

Mark says RIGHT, AND SO WHAT I'M DOING
IS JUST GIVING A NAME TO
SOMETHING THAT IS BEING
IMPLEMENTED EVERYWHERE.
LET'S JUST LOOK AT ELECTRICITY.
THE TWO KEY SECTORS THAT WE CAN
ACT ON IN CANADA ARE ELECTRICITY
AND TRANSPORTATION, AND SO I'M
GOING TO FOCUS ON THOSE TWO
SECTORS, BUT YOU CAN ALSO DO
THINGS IN BUILDINGS, AND WE ARE
DOING A KIND OF A... THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT'S CALLING IT PRICING,
OUTPUT-BASED PRICING IN THE
INDUSTRY, BUT IT'S A LOT OF US
WOULD CALL IT A KIND OF
REGULATION.
BUT THESE ARE REGULATIONS THAT
ALSO TRY TO BE ECONOMICALLY
EFFICIENT IF POSSIBLE BY, AG
GIVING ALL OF THAT CHOICE TO
HOUSEHOLDS... FOR EXAMPLE.
IN BRITISH COLUMBIA, WE
IMPLEMENTED A CLEAN ELECTRICITY
STANDARD.
THIS IS, AGAIN, 10 YEARS AGO,
AND IT MEANT THAT NO... TWO COAL
PLANTS THAT BC HYDRO HAD
CONTRACTS FOR DID NOT GET BUILT
AND GAS PLANTS DID NOT GET
BUILT.
AND THEN WHAT WE DID IS WE HAD
COMPETITION TO SEE WHAT
RENEWABLES WOULD REPLACE THEM.
WE DIDN'T SAY WE MUST HAVE THIS
RENEWABLE OR THAT RENEWABLE.
WE ALLOWED THE MARKET FORCES TO
DETERMINE THAT.
ALBERTA RIGHT NOW IS PHASING OUT
ITS COAL PLANTS, AND THIS IS A
WAY MORE IMPORTANT POLICY THAN
RACHEL NOTLEY'S CARBON PRICE,
AND THAT'S PHASE OUT THE COAL PLANTS.
THEN SHE'S ALLOWING COMPETITION
TO HAPPEN TO DETERMINE IF IT'S
WIND, IF IT'S SOLAR, IF IT'S
BIOMASS, IF IT'S HYDRO POWER
THAT WILL REPLACE THE COAL.
IF I MOVE TO TRANSPORTATION JUST BRIEFLY.

Steve says SURE.

Mark says QUEBEC HAS A ZERO EMISSION
VEHICLE STANDARD.
BRITISH COLUMBIA IS ABOUT TO
IMPLEMENT THAT.
IT SAYS... IT DOESN'T SAY YOU
HAVE TO GO TO ELECTRIC VEHICLES
OR YOU HAVE TO GO TO HYDROGEN
VEHICLES OR YOU HAVE TO GO TO
BIOFUEL VEHICLES.
IT SAYS LET THE MARKET DECIDE
THAT, BUT WE KNOW WE HAVE TO
STOP BURNING GASOLINE IN OUR
CARS, SO LET'S PUT IN A
REGULATION THAT PHASES IN THAT
REQUIREMENT OVER TIME, BUT IT
DOES IT FLEXIBLY.
SO THAT'S WHAT I MEAN AND THOSE
ARE THE TWO SECTORS I WOULD GIVE
AS THE EXAMPLE FOR WHAT IS
CALLED A FLEXIBLE REGULATION.
AND JUST TO POINT OUT, THAT IS
WHAT WE'RE DOING.
CALIFORNIA, FOR EXAMPLE, MAJOR
LEADER IN NORTH AMERICA, IN THE
WORLD IN REDUCING EMISSIONS, AND
OUR CALCULATIONS AND COLLEAGUES
OF MINE IN THE UNITED STATES IS
THAT ABOUT 85 percent OF THE REDUCTIONS
THAT CALIFORNIA'S DOING ARE
COMING FROM FLEXIBLE REGULATIONS
AND FROM OTHER REGULATIONS NOT
FROM CARBON PRICING.
I DID THE SAME ANALYSIS FOR
ALBERTA, SO IT'S WHAT WE'RE
ACTUALLY DOING.

Steve says MARK, DOESN'T THAT
PRESUPPOSE, THOUGH, THAT THE
PEOPLE OF QUEBEC WANT TO BUY
ZERO EMISSION CARS, AND ISN'T
THE PROBLEM WITH THAT ASSUMPTION
THAT THERE'S ACTUALLY NOT MUCH
EVIDENCE THAT PEOPLE ARE
PREPARED TO DO THAT?
THEY STILL SEEM TO LOVE THEIR
INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE, SUVS
AND PICK-UP TRUCKS, RIGHT?

Mark says ABSOLUTELY.
YOU MENTIONED ONE BOOK I WROTE
10 YEARS AGO.
I ALSO WROTE ANOTHER BOOK CALLED
"SUSTAINABLE FOSSIL FUELS."
FOSSIL FUELS ARE FANTASTIC.
THEY HAVE DONE SO MUCH FOR
HUMANITY, AND SO WE SHOULDN'T
ASSUME THAT WE CAN JUST EASILY
MOVE AWAY FROM THEM.
BUT WE HAVE TO STOP BURNING
THEM, AND WE'VE KNOWN THAT FOR
30 YEARS, AND WE'VE BEEN
IMPLEMENTING POLICIES TO DO
THAT.
SO THE POLICIES STILL HAVE TO DO
THE SAME KIND OF THING THAT A
CARBON PRICE DOES.
THEY HAVE TO MAKE IT MORE
EXPENSIVE TO BUY ONE THING
RATHER THAN ANOTHER.
AND I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE OF
THAT.
THE ZERO EMISSION VEHICLE
STANDARD THAT QUEBEC HAS, AND AS
I SAY... WELL, CALIFORNIA REALLY
STARTED THAT POLICY.
WHAT IT DOES IS IT SAYS TO
VEHICLE SELLERS, YOU HAVE TO
HAVE A RISING SHARE OF ZERO
EMISSION VEHICLES OVER TIME OR
YOU WILL PAY THIS MUCH PENALTY
PER CAR.
SO WHAT HAPPENS IS THE
RETAILERS, THE SELLERS OF THE...
MANUFACTURERS, RETAILERS OF
CARS, THEY SAY, OH, NO, WE'LL
SLIGHTLY INCREASE THE PRICE OF
CERTAIN GAS GUZZLERS, AND WE'LL
USE THAT TO GET THE PRICE OF
ELECTRIC CARS LOWER AND LOWER,
AND MAYBE EVEN HYDROGEN FUEL
CELL CARS, AND WE SHOULD BE
DOING MORE ON THE BIOFUEL, AND
SO THE MARKETPLACE MAKES IT MORE
AND MORE ATTRACTIVE TO BUY AN
ELECTRIC CAR.
AND THIS IS WHAT'S GOING ON.
NORWAY HAS THESE AMAZING TARGETS
FOR ZERO EMISSION VEHICLES.
THE SALES OF ZERO EMISSION
VEHICLES, ESPECIALLY ELECTRIC
VEHICLES, IS REALLY SKYROCKETING
IN DIFFERENT PLACES HERE.
AND THAT'S PARTLY DUE TO POLICY
AND PARTLY TO DO WITH MORE AND
MORE PEOPLE REALIZING THAT COULD
BE A VIABLE OPTION OR THEY CARE
ENOUGH ABOUT THE PLANET TO MAKE
THAT CHOICE.

Steve says LET'S JUST FINISH UP
HERE ON CONSERVATIVE
POLITICIANS, BECAUSE AS YOU'VE
SUGGESTED, CERTAINLY BACK IN THE
STEPHEN HARPER DAYS, HE
CERTAINLY DIDN'T APPRECIATE A
CARBON TAX, AND YOU SAY HE
DIDN'T BRING IN REGULATIONS THAT
WERE VERY HELPFUL EITHER.
DO YOU THINK WE HAVE IN CANADA
TODAY, AND LET'S START IN THE
PROVINCE OF ONTARIO, WHERE WE
JUST ELECTED A CONSERVATIVE
GOVERNMENT SEVEN MONTHS AGO, DO
YOU THINK THAT THIS CONSERVATIVE
GOVERNMENT IS PREPARED TO PUT IN
PLACE REGULATIONS THAT ARE
ADEQUATE TO THE TASK AS YOU'VE
DESCRIBED IT?

Mark says NO.
AND TO ME THE OBVIOUS THING IS
THAT WE KNOW ABOUT CLIMATE
POLICIES FOR THREE DECADES NOW.
SO IF A POLITICIAN SAYS TO YOU,
OH, THAT GUY'S POLICY'S TERRIBLE
AND WHEN I GET IN, YOU KNOW,
WE'RE GOING TO GET TOGETHER A
CITIZENS GROUP OR WE'RE GOING TO
PACKAGE TOGETHER SOMETHING AND
THAT'S AN OBVIOUS TELL RIGHT
THERE THAT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO
DO IT.
AND SO IF YOU REALLY CARE ABOUT
CLIMATE CHANGE, AND THAT'S
IMPORTANT TO YOU AS A VOTER, YOU
SHOULDN'T VOTE FOR THEM.
BECAUSE THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO
TELL YOU, OH, WE'RE GOING TO
ADOPT NORWAY'S POLICY ON
ELECTRIC VEHICLES.
IT'S GOING TO... YOU KNOW, IT'S
GOING TO TAKE OUT ELECTRIC
VEHICLES IN SUCH AND SUCH A TIME
FRAME.
WE'RE GOING TO ADOPT THIS POLICY
IN THE ELECTRICITY SECTOR, AND
YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING TO COPY
CALIFORNIA IN THIS POLICY.
AND THEY ARE ALREADY THERE, SO
YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE ELECTED TO
SAY THIS IS WHAT I'M GOING TO
DO.
IN FACT, YOU SHOULD BE SAYING IT
BEFORE YOU'RE ELECTED.
SO WHAT HAPPENED WAS THE FORD
GOVERNMENT CAME IN.
I LOOKED AT WHAT THEY OFFERED AS
AN ALTERNATIVE, AND I... AND
PEOPLE THAT I TRUST, ECONOMISTS,
SOME OF THE PEOPLE THAT I'VE
TRAINED OVER THE YEARS ACROSS
THE COUNTRY IN DIFFERENT
POSITIONS, ALL LOOKED AT IT AND
SAID, NO, NO, THIS IS... THIS IS
JUST WHAT WE'VE SEEN BEFORE.
IT LOOKS DIFFERENT THAN THE
SINCERE POLICY THAT WILL MAKE A
DIFFERENCE, AND WE'LL LEAVE THIS
PROBLEM FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS.

The caption changes to "Producer: Meredith Martin, @MeredithMartin."

Steve says HMM.
WELL, AT THE VERY LEAST I
SINCERELY WANT TO THANK YOU FOR
COMING ON TO TVO TONIGHT AND
HELPING US OUT WITH THIS.
THAT'S MARK JACCARD, PROFESSOR
OF SUSTAINABLE ENERGY AT THE
SCHOOL OF RESOURCE AND
ENVIRONMENTAL MANAGEMENT, SIMON
FRASER UNIVERSITY.
THANKS, MARK.

Mark says THANK YOU.
IT'S BEEN MY PLEASURE.

Watch: Flex-Regs for the Win