Transcript: Burnout and Despair: Studying the Climate | Jan 15, 2019

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and spotted blue tie.

A caption on screen reads "Burnout and despair: Studying the climate. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says IF YOU FIND THE NEWS ABOUT
CLIMATE CHANGE DISTRESSING,
IMAGINE HOW CLIMATE SCIENTISTS FEEL.
FOR YEARS NOW, THEIR RESEARCH
HAS RETURNED DATA THAT POINTS TO
A LOOMING GLOBAL CLIMATE CRISIS.
AND DESPITE AN OVERWHELMING
CONSENSUS AMONG THE WORLD'S
EXPERTS, THERE ARE STILL THOSE
THAT DENY IT'S EVEN HAPPENING.
HOW DO THEY KEEP ON KEEPING ON?
LET'S FIND OUT.
IN WASHINGTON, DC, DR. LISE VAN
SUSTEREN, A PSYCHIATRIST
SPECIALIZING IN THE MENTAL
HEALTH EFFECTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE
AND BOARD MEMBER OF PHYSICIANS
FOR SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY.

Lise is in her sixties, with shoulder-length wavy gray hair. She's wearing glasses, a red blazer, white shirt, and golden chain necklace with matching earrings.

Steve continues IN STATE COLLEGE, PENNSYLVANIA,
VIA SKYPE, MICHAEL MANN,
DISTINGUISHED PROFESSOR OF
ATMOSPHERIC SCIENCE, AND
DIRECTOR OF THE EARTH SYSTEM
SCIENCE CENTER AT PENN STATE UNIVERSITY.

Michael is in his fifties, balding, with a goatee. He's wearing a purple sweater.

Steve continues AND HERE IN OUR STUDIO, MATTHEW HOFFMANN, CO-DIRECTOR OF THE
ENVIRONMENTAL GOVERNANCE LAB AND
PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL SCIENCE
AT THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO, SCARBOROUGH...

Matthew is in his late forties, with short curly gray hair and a boxed beard. He's wearing glasses, a blue suit, pink shirt and spotted blue tie.

Steve continues AND JASON
THISTLETHWAITE, PROFESSOR,
SCHOOL OF ENVIRONMENT,
ENTERPRISE AND DEVELOPMENT AT
THE UNIVERSITY OF WATERLOO.

Jason is in his late thirties, with short brown hair and a stubble. He's wearing glasses, a gray suit and a checkered shirt.

Steve continues AND WE ARE DELIGHTED TO HAVE YOU
TWO GENTLEMEN HERE IN OUR STUDIO
AND OUR FRIENDS IN POINTS BEYOND
ON OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
JUST TO SET UP THIS DISCUSSION,
I THOUGHT I'D READ A FEW QUOTES
HERE FROM SOME OF YOUR
COLLEAGUES TO SORT OF SET THE
TABLE FOR THE DISCUSSION TO COME.
HERE'S SCIENTIST CAMMIL PARMESAN
WHO SHARES THE NOBEL PRIZE WITH
AL GORE IN 2007, SAYING THAT SHE
BECAME, QUOTE, PROFESSIONALLY
DEPRESSED STUDYING CLIMATE CHANGE.

A quote by Camille Parmesan, 2007 Nobel Peace Prize winner, reads "Professionally depressed."
Quoted from Grist.org, October 28, 2014.

Steve continues ANOTHER CLIMATE JOURNALIST ERIC
HOLTHOUSE WROTE IN 2018: I LOSE
SLEEP OVER CLIMATE CHANGE ALMOST
EVERY SINGLE NIGHT. I CAN'T REMEMBER HOW LONG THIS HAS BEEN HAPPENING, BUT IT'S
BEEN QUITE A WHILE, AND IT'S ONLY GETTING WORSE. I CONFESS: I NEED HELP.
HE WENT TO COUNSELLING FOR WHAT
HE CALLED HIS SOUL-CRUSHING
CLIMATE DESPAIR.
AND ONE MORE.
ACTIVIST JULIAN CALDWELL WHO WROTE: "I BELIEVE THAT I AND MANY OTHER PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD ARE SUFFERING FROM, QUOTE,
CLIMATE TRAUMA. IT'S MY OWN TERM. I AM NOT A MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONAL, BUT I CAN IDENTIFY PLAIN AS DAY THE SYMPTOMS I
RECOGNIZE IN MYSELF AND IN MY COLLEAGUES TRAUMATIZED BY OUR WORK TO TACKLE CLIMATE CHANGE."

Steve continues OKAY.
Lise, PLEASE GET US STARTED ON
THIS.
LET'S START WITH A MENTAL HEALTH
PROFESSIONAL.
HOW COULD YOU CHARACTERIZE WHAT
THEY ARE SAYING THEY ARE EXPERIENCING?

The caption changes to "Lisa Van Susteren. Psychiatrist."
Then, it changes again to "Researching the end of the world."

Lisa says IT'S CLEAR THAT THEY ARE
RESPONDING EMOTIONALLY TO WHAT
IS A VERY LEGITIMATE CONDITION,
AND THAT IS THAT THE CLIMATE IS
CRASHING AND WE HAVE ENORMOUS
CONSEQUENCES.
SO FOR THEM NOT TO BE
EXPERIENCING THESE KINDS OF
EMOTIONS WOULD BE ODD.
THEY WOULD BE OUT OF TOUCH WITH
WHAT THEY ARE ACTUALLY
SURROUNDED BY.
SO ENTIRELY LEGITIMATE, IN MY MIND.

Steve says LET'S DO A QUICK
FOLLOW-UP HERE.
WE'VE ALL HEARD OF
POST-TRAUMATIC STRESS, BUT YOU
HAVE CALLED THIS PRE-TRAUMATIC
STRESS.
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

Lisa says PRE-TRAUMATIC STRESS IS LIKE
POST-TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER,
EXCEPT YOU ARE EXPERIENCING THE
SYMPTOMS BEFORE THE EVENT
HAPPENS.
WHEN I STARTED USING THE TERM
PRE-TRAUMATIC STRESS, IT WAS
BEFORE WE SAW SO MANY
CATASTROPHES, AND NOW IT'S NOT
EVEN LEGITIMATE TO CALL IT
PRE-TRAUMATIC STRESS, EXCEPT IN
THE SENSE THAT PEOPLE ARE
IMAGINING OR CONJURING EVEN
WORSE CONSEQUENCES DOWN THE
ROAD.

Steve says MICHAEL MANN, TELL US,
CAN YOU RELATE TO THESE
EXPERIENCES AS I'VE JUST
DESCRIBED THEM.

The caption changes to "Michael Mann. Penn State University."

Michael says AFTER HEARING ALL OF THIS I
TRULY DO FEEL DEPRESSED.

Steve says SORRY.

A map appears briefly, showing the location of State College, in Pennsylvania, U.S.A.

Michael says IT'S A BIT ODD.
AS A SCIENTIST STUDYING THE
SCIENCE OF CLIMATE CHANGE ON A
DAYBY DAY BASIS, YOU CAN BECOME
SENSITIZED TO IT.
YOU'RE SO USED TO STUDYING IN
TERMS OF NUMBERS AND FIGURES AND
GRAPHS AND EQUATIONS THAT
SOMETIMES YOU LOSE SIGHT OF THE
REALITY AND THE REAL THREAT THAT
CLIMATE CHANGE CONSTITUTES.
BUT THERE ARE MOMENTS WHERE YOU
DO EXPERIENCE THAT INTENSELY.
WHEN I WAS WITH MY DAUGHTER AND
WIFE DOWN IN THE FLORIDA KEYS
SOME YEARS AGO WHEN SHE WAS VERY
YOUNG, AND IT JUST SORT OF
STRUCK ME THAT THIS IS AT
THREAT, THIS IS UNDER THREAT BY
CLIMATE CHANGE, THIS AMAZING
NATURAL WONDER IS UNDER THREAT.
AND WHEN I READ TO MY DAUGHTER
OR I TALK TO HER ABOUT CLIMATE
CHANGE, IT REALLY STARTS TO HIT
HOME THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS ISN'T
JUST ABOUT THE FACTS AND THE
FIGURES AND THE GRAPHS.
THIS IS ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE
FUNDAMENTAL THREAT THAT CLIMATE
CHANGE REPRESENTS, NOT JUST TO
US BUT TO OUR CHILDREN AND
GRANDCHILDREN, AND THE LEGACY
OF, YOU KNOW, THE ACTIONS THAT
WE TAKE TODAY.
AND SO FOR ME, IT'S ACTUALLY IN
A WAY EMPOWERING.
THE FACT THAT I'M REMINDED OF
THAT MEANS THAT I... I
RECOGNIZE, YOU KNOW, THAT
THIS... THERE'S SOMETHING MUCH
LARGER AT STAKE HERE THAN JUST
UNDERSTANDING THE ISSUE OF
CLIMATE CHANGE.
AND IT ACTUALLY GIVES ME THE
ENERGY THAT I NEED, KNOWING THAT
WE CAN STILL, YOU KNOW,
INFLUENCE THE PACK THAT WE
FOLLOW AND THE FUTURE OF OUR
CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN GIVES
ME THE ENERGY AND THE PASSION TO
CONTINUE ON BATTLING TO
COMMUNICATE THE REALITY OF THE
SCIENCE AND ITS IMPLICATIONS.

Steve says OKAY, LET'S GET SOME
REACTION HERE IN THE STUDIO.
MATTHEW?

The caption changes to "Matthew Hoffmann. University of Toronto."

Matthew says WELL, AS A SOCIAL SCIENTIST,
AS SOMEONE WHO STUDIES CLIMATE
POLITICS, I FEEL WHAT MICHAEL
AND LISE ARE TALKING ABOUT ALL
THE TIME, AND MY STUDENTS ASK IF
I FEEL DESPAIR ABOUT CLIMATE
CHANGE AND GLOBAL ENVIRONMENTAL
PROBLEMS, AND I TELL THEM IT
DEPENDS ON THE DAY.

Steve says WHAT WERE YOU TELLING
ME BEFORE WE STARTED TAPING?

Matthew says YEAH, AND THE...

Steve says THE QUESTION YOU ASK.

Matthew says THE QUESTION I ASK AT THE
BEGINNING OF ALL THESE CLASSES I
TEACH: SHOULD WE HAVE THIS CLASS
OR SHOULD WE JUST GO TO THE
BEACH AND GIVE UP?
AND THAT SENSE IS REAL FOR
PEOPLE THAT STUDY THE POLITICS
OF CLIMATE CHANGE I THINK IN A
REAL VISCERAL WAY BECAUSE WE
KEEP UP ON THE SCIENCE.
WE'RE NOT PRODUCING CLIMATE
SCIENCE, BUT WE KEEP UP ON THE
SCIENCE.
BUT WE ALSO ARE INTIMATELY
FAMILIAR WITH WHY SOCIETIES ARE
HAVING SUCH A HARD TIME DOING
SOMETHING WITH THAT SCIENCE AND
WHY SOCIETIES FACE SUCH
CHALLENGES IN MAKING THE KIND OF
TRANSFORMATION THAT WE NEED.
AND SO I READ THE IPCC REPORTS.
I SEE THE SCIENTIFIC REPORTS,
AND THEY MAKE ME SAD.
AND THEN I GO TO WORK AND SAY,
OKAY, HOW DO WE THINK ABOUT THE
WAY SOCIETIES CAN TRANSFORM, AND
THAT MAKES ME SAD.
AND SO I DON'T WANT TO GET IN A
DESPAIR CONTEST, BUT SOCIAL
SCIENTISTS ARE FACING THESE VERY
SAME KIND OF REALLY MENTAL
PRESSURES IN TERMS OF WHAT WE DO
ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS.

Steve says AND LET ME GUESS, THIS
SHOW ISN'T DOING MUCH FOR YOUR
NORMALLY GOOD HUMOUR EITHER?

Matthew says WELL, IT'S NICE TO TALK ABOUT
IT WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING
THROUGH THE SAME THING.

Steve says JASON, HOW ABOUT YOU?

The caption changes to "Jason Thistlethwaite. University of Waterloo."

Jason says TO THAT POINT, IT'S ONE OF
THE THINGS WE CAN DO TO TRY TO
ALLEVIATE THIS ANXIETY AND TALK
ABOUT IT, AND NOT JUST IN THESE
ENVIRONMENTS, BUT AMONG FAMILY
AND FRIENDS AS WELL.
IT'S INDEED IN THOSE
CONVERSATIONS THAT YOU DO GET A
SENSE OF SOME OF THE ANXIETY
AROUND THIS, A BIG ONE BEING I
HAVE A... PEOPLE MY AGE AND MY
FRIENDS, WE HAVE YOUNG CHILDREN.
SO HOW DO YOU, FOR INSTANCE,
RECONCILE SOME OF THE IMPOSSIBLE
DECISIONS YOU HAVE TO MAKE ON A
DAILY BASIS, THINGS LIKE DRIVING
A CAR, SINGLE-USE ITEMS, ALL OF
THESE THINGS ARE CONTRIBUTING TO
A BURDEN THAT, YOU KNOW, MY
2-YEAR-OLD DOESN'T EVEN KNOW
EXISTS YET.
SO I THINK THAT'S... THAT'S
DEFINITELY A SIGNIFICANT SOURCE
OF ANXIETY THAT WE'RE TRYING TO
PULL APART.
AND THEN OF COURSE, YEAH, AS
MATT SAID ON THE SOCIAL SCIENCE
SIDE OF THINGS, THERE'S... THIS
IS ANXIETY THAT WE KNOW A LOT OF
THE SOLUTIONS.
WE KNOW A LOT OF THE...
PARTICULARLY IN MY AREA, I'M
INTERESTED IN MANAGING THE
CHANGE, AND WE KNOW THE
SOLUTIONS THAT EXIST, BUT
THERE'S THIS SOCIETY WE CAN'T
CONVINCE OURSELVES OR LEADERS TO
ADOPT THEM OR DO ANYTHING ABOUT THEM.

The caption changes to "Through the eyes of my child."

Steve says SPEAKING OF CHILDREN,
MICHAEL I'VE HEARD YOU IN THE
PAST TALK ABOUT READING "THE
LORAX" TO YOUR CHILD AND FEELING
OVERCOME BY IT.
TELL ME WHY.

Michael says YEAH, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU GET
TO THE END OF THE BOOK OF COURSE
THERE'S A VERY SOLEMN MOMENT
WHERE YOU'RE CONFRONTED WITH,
YOU KNOW, THE REALITY OF THE
DESTRUCTION OF THE ENVIRONMENT.
AND IT'S THE VERY LAST TREE HAS
BEEN CUT DOWN, AND I REMEMBER
WHEN MY DAUGHTER WAS VERY YOUNG,
I THINK SHE WAS ONLY ABOUT THREE
OR FOUR, AND I READ THAT BOOK TO
HER BECAUSE IT WAS A BOOK THAT
INSPIRED ME.
BUT I WAS SORT OF CAUGHT BY
SURPRISE AT JUST HOW EMOTIONALLY
IMPACTED SHE WAS, AND SHE CRIED
AT THE END OF THAT.
AND I TRIED TO EXPLAIN TO HER
THAT ACTUALLY IT'S A HOPEFUL
STORY.
YES, SOME TERRIBLE THINGS HAVE
HAPPENED, BUT IT ENDS ON A NOTE
OF HOPEFUL, CAUTIOUS OPTIMISM.
AND SO THAT IS IN A SENSE
INFLUENCED THE LARGER APPROACH
THAT I TAKE TO COMMUNICATING THE
SCIENCE AND ITS IMPLICATIONS.
BECAUSE YOU KNOW, THERE IS GREAT
SUFFERING THAT'S ALREADY
HAPPENING.
THERE'S MORE SUFFERING THAT WE
CAN NO LONGER AVOID JUST BECAUSE
OF THE WARMING THAT'S ALREADY
LOCKED IN, THE CLIMATE CHANGE
THAT'S ALREADY BAKED IN.
BUT THERE'S SO MUCH SUFFERING WE
CAN STILL PREVENT, AND EVERY
ADDITIONAL TONNE OF CARBON THAT
WE DON'T EMIT INTO THE
ATMOSPHERE, EVERY BIT OF FOSSIL
FUELS THAT WE DON'T BURN, EVERY
BIT OF ACTION THAT WE CAN ENGAGE
IN MAKE IT IS FUTURE A LITTLE
BETTER.
IT'S NOT A CLIFF THAT WE FALL
OFF.
IT'S MORE LIKE A MINEFIELD THAT
WE'RE WALKING ON TO, AND WE HAVE
TO MAKE SURE THAT WE DON'T WALK
FURTHER ON TO THAT MINEFIELD.
WE DO EVERYTHING WE CAN.
HOW MUCH CLIMATE CHANGE IS
DANGEROUS?
ANY AMOUNT OF CLIMATE CHANGE.
HOW MUCH DO WE NEED TO PREVENT?
ANY CLIMATE CHANGE THAT WE CAN
PREVENT.

Steve says ALL RIGHT, TO THAT
END, Lise, LET ME GET TO YOU.
FROM YOUR VANTAGE POINT, DO YOU
SEE IN SCIENTISTS AND
RESEARCHERS, YOU KNOW, THE
VARIOUS STAGES OF GRIEF?

The caption changes to "Lise Van Susteren. Physicians for Social Responsibility."
Then, it changes again to "The stages of grief?"

Lisa says I DO, BUT THEY AREN'T LIKELY
TO BRING IT UP TO ME.
TYPICALLY PEOPLE WILL FOCUS ON
WHAT THEY'RE DOING, WHAT THEY
HAVE FOUND IN THEIR RESEARCH,
AND IF I PUSH A LITTLE BIT
THEY'LL TALK ABOUT WHAT THEIR
ANXIETIES ARE, BUT PEOPLE WHO
ARE INVOLVED IN THIS ARENA, WHO
ARE WORKING, TEND TO USE AS A
COPING MECHANISM THAT FOCUS ON
THE WORK THAT THEY'RE DOING.
AND THAT'S REALLY GOOD BECAUSE
THEIR WORK IS IMPORTANT.
AND IT REALLY UNDERSCORES WHAT
ALL OF US CAN BE DOING, AND THAT
IS THAT WE UNDERSTAND, ACCEPT
THE ANXIETY.
WE TALK DIRECTLY TO PEOPLE ABOUT
WHAT'S BOTHERING THEM, WHAT THE
THREATS ARE, WHAT THE
CONSEQUENCES ARE GOING TO BE.
AND LIKE THE OLD MEDICAL MODEL,
YOU GO FROM TELLING A PERSON
WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO SAYING
HERE'S WHAT YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT.
AND IF THERE'S ONE THING THAT I
THINK WE'RE NOT REALLY GOOD AT,
IT'S SEGUEING FROM LOOK AT THIS
AWFUL FIRE AND STORM AND
ET CETERA, HIGH WINDS AND
DROUGHT AND SEA LEVEL RISE, AND
SEGUEING TO HERE'S WHAT YOU CAN
DO PERSONALLY YOURSELF, IN YOUR
COMMUNITY, INSPIRING OTHERS TO
TAKE ACTION.
THAT SECOND POINT IS OFTEN LEFT
ON THE TABLE.

Steve says HMM.
JASON, I'VE HEARD YOU TALK ABOUT
A FEELING OF HOME SICKNESS.
WHAT DOES THAT REFER TO?

The caption changes to "Jason Thistlethwaite, @jasonthistle."

Jason says YEAH, THIS IS ACTUALLY A
CONCEPT RECOGNIZED BY A NUMBER
OF PSYCHIATRISTS AND
PSYCHOLOGISTS, AND IT'S KIND OF
THE OPPOSITE OF NOSTALGIA.
IT'S WHERE YOU ARE HOMESICK FOR
THE PLACE THAT YOU LIVE NOW.
SO YOU'RE HOMESICK FOR THE WORLD
THAT YOU GREW UP IN AND THE
CHANGES THAT ARE HAPPENING
AROUND IT.
SO A FEW EXAMPLES OF THIS ARE IN
THE INUIT COMMUNITIES, FOR
EXAMPLE.
THEY ARE FINDING THAT THEY ARE
FEELING ANXIOUS BECAUSE THEY CAN
NO LONGER ACCESS PIECES OF LAND
THAT THEY FOR GENERATIONS HAD
ACCESS TO.
THE ONE THING THAT I THINK ABOUT
FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE LAST
FEW SUMMERS HERE LOCALLY IN
ONTARIO AND CANADA IS THAT
SUMMER SUNSET THAT YOU'RE SO
LOOKING FORWARD TO, ESCAPING THE
HEAT OF THE DAY, BEING OUT IN
THE NICE COOL WEATHER, AND IT'S
HAZY BECAUSE THERE'S SMOKE FROM
WESTERN WILDFIRES, AND THAT IS
EVEN JUST TO SPEAK ABOUT THE
CLOUD AND THE HAZE THAT ARE
EXPERIENCING OUT THERE.
AND THIS HAS BEEN THE LAST TWO
SUMMERS, SO YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST
GOING TO BECOME THE NEW NORMAL
WHERE WE'RE GOING TO LOSE THIS
PART OF OUR SUMMERS THAT REALLY
IS A PART OF OUR IDENTITY AND A
PART OF HOW WE GREW UP.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Steve says MATT, LET ME TRY THIS
WITH YOU.
YOU TOLD US A MOMENT AGO THAT
YOU READ ALL THE IPCC REPORTS,
THE INTERGOVERNMENTAL PANEL ON
CLIMATE CHANGE.
WHEN THE LAST ONE CAME OUT, DO
YOU RECALL WHAT YOUR REACTION
WAS AT THE TIME?

The caption changes to "Matthew Hoffmann, @HoffmannMatt."

Matthew says YEAH, IT WAS SCHIZOPHRENIC IN
SOME WAYS, RIGHT?
SOME TECHNICALLY.
SO I READ IT AND THERE'S NOT A
TON OF NEW INFORMATION IN THERE.
IT'S IPCC REPORTS ARE NOT ABOUT
NEW INFORMATION, BUT IT WAS
FRAMED IN A REALLY IMPORTANT WAY
TO TRY AND GENERATE ANXIETY AND
URGENCY.
AND IT DID.
THAT WORKED.

Steve says EVEN THOUGH THEY
BURIED IT WHEN THEY RELEASED IT.

THE CAPTION CHANGES TO "WATCH US ANYTIME: TVO.ORG, TWITTER: @THEAGENDA, FACEBOOK LIVE."

Matthew says THAT'S RIGHT, AND THE
DISCUSSION AROUND IT THAT COMES
OUT IMMEDIATELY MAKES YOU FOCUS
ON THE CHALLENGE OF THAT
TRANSFORMATION, RIGHT?
AND SO YOUR FIRST THOUGHT IS,
ESPECIALLY AS SOMEONE WHO'S BEEN
TRYING TO STUDY THE CHALLENGES
OF TRANSFORMATION, IS THAT WE
JUST DON'T HAVE THE
TRANSFORMATIVE CAPACITY RIGHT
NOW TO DO WHAT'S NECESSARY.
BUT THE SECOND DAY, SO THE FIRST
DAY YOU'RE SORT OF LIKE "WE'RE
SCREWED."
THE SECOND DAY, YOU KNOW, YOU
GET BACK TO WORK, AND ONE OF THE
THINGS THAT I THINK... AND THIS
HARKENS TO SOMETHING THAT Lise
TALKED ABOUT IN TERMS OF THE
AGENCY INVOLVED, WHAT CAN YOU
DO, AND THAT I THINK IS
IMPORTANT FOR MOST SCIENTISTS
AND THE GENERAL PUBLIC TO THINK
ALONG THOSE LINES, AND ONE OF
THE THINGS, A PARADOX ABOUT THE
ENORMITY OF THE CHALLENGE OF
CLIMATE CHANGE IS THAT, YES,
THAT MAKES IT A HUGE CHALLENGE,
BUT IT ALSO MEANS THAT THERE ARE
AN INCREDIBLE NUMBER OF WAYS
THAT YOU CAN PARTICIPATE IN
WORKING ON CLIMATE CHANGE.
BECAUSE IT'S ABOUT BUILDING
RESILIENT, SUSTAINABLE, JUST
COMMUNITIES.
IT IS ABOUT FINDING NEW
TECHNOLOGIES.
IT IS ABOUT CHANGING YOUR
EVERYDAY LIFE.

Steve says THAT IS ALL TRUE.
HOWEVER... I MEAN, I'VE READ
ACCOUNTS FROM SCIENTISTS WHO
SAID WE'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE
CHILDREN BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT
GOING TO BRING KIDS INTO SUCH A
HOPELESS WORLD.
WHEN YOU'RE READING THOSE
REPORTS AND YOU'RE HAVING ONE OF
YOUR BAD DAYS, WHAT GOES THROUGH
YOUR HEAD?

Matthew says WHAT GOES THROUGH MY HEAD ON
THOSE BAD DAYS IS IT'S
TALKING... AND IT'S A CLICHE,
TALKING TO MY SON.
HE'S IN HIGH SCHOOL AND HE ASKS
ME: ARE WE GOING TO FIX THIS?
IS THIS GOING TO GET BETTER?
AND ON MY BAD DAYS, I'M LIKE,
WELL, I DON'T KNOW.
RIGHT?
I NEVER HAVE GOTTEN TO THE POINT
WHERE I SAY "NO," RIGHT?

Steve says YOU CAN'T TAKE AWAY
ALL HIS HOPE.

Matthew says AND I'M NOT THERE, RIGHT?
THE UNCERTAINTY OF THE FUTURE I
THINK IS REALLY IMPORTANT FOR HOPE.
AND SO ON THOSE BAD DAYS,
BECAUSE WHAT HE'S ASKING, I
THINK, WHEN HE SAYS ARE WE GOING
TO FIX THIS, IS IS THERE NOT
HOPE LEFT BUT IS THERE AGENCY
LEFT?
IS THERE... ARE THERE THINGS
THAT INDIVIDUALS AND COMMUNITIES
CAN STILL DO TO WORK ON THIS?

Steve says WELL, LET ME FOLLOW UP
WITH MICHAEL ON THIS.
BECAUSE YOU... FIRST OF ALL,
THERE'S A GREAT PIECE IN ESQUIRE
MAGAZINE, IF PEOPLE HAVEN'T READ
IT, THEY SHOULD GO ON-LINE AND
READ THIS PIECE, BECAUSE YOU
REALLY ARE IN SOME RESPECTS THE
POSTER CHILD OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE
MADE THIS THEIR LIFE'S WORK WHO
HAVE RECEIVED... I MEAN, YOU'VE
BEEN DENOUNCED, INVESTIGATED,
YOU'VE GOT DEATH THREATS.
YOU'VE BEEN ACCUSED OF
EVERYTHING UNDER THE SUN.
ONE PERSON SAID YOU SHOULD BE
SHOT, QUARTERED, FED TO THE
PIGS.
YOU'VE HEARD ALL THIS STUFF
BEFORE.

The caption changes to "Anger, hostility, death threats."

Michael says THOSE ARE THE NICER THINGS.

[Laughter].

Steve says WHAT IMPACT ON YOU
PERSONALLY HAS BEING THE
WELL-KNOWN PUBLIC FACE OF THIS
MEANT TO YOU?

Michael says WELL, YOU KNOW, I'LL TELL
YOU, IT'S ACTUALLY INSPIRED ME
TO DO MORE BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, AT
SOME LEVEL WE WOULDN'T BE
ATTACKED THIS WAY IF THERE
WASN'T SOMETHING IMPORTANT ABOUT
OUR MESSAGE.
AND I WANTED TO RETURN TO THIS
ISSUE OF AGENCY IN THAT CONTEXT
AND RETURN TO THE TALE OF THE
LORAX, BECAUSE IT IS A TALE.
IT ENDS ON A MESSAGE OF AGENCY,
OF HOPE.
THERE'S ONE SEED THAT'S STILL
LEFT, AND THE CHILD THAT'S THE
ABILITY TO DETERMINE HER DESTINY
AND THE DESTINY OF HER WORLD.
IT ALL LIES WITH HER, AND THE
SAME THING IS TRUE WITH CLIMATE
CHANGE, AS WE'VE BEEN DISCUSSING
HERE.
THERE'S SO MANY THINGS THAT WE
CAN DO TO REDUCE OUR OWN
PERSONAL CARBON FOOTPRINT, AND
IT MAKES US IN MANY CASES
HEALTHIER AND HAPPIER, SAVES US
MONEY, ALL THESE THINGS THAT WE
OUGHT TO BE DOING ANYWAYS, BUT
OF COURSE IN THE END IT'S ABOUT
A SHIFT IN THE INCENTIVES, A
SHIFT IN THE INCENTIVES IN OUR
ECONOMY, MOVING AWAY FROM FOSSIL
FUELS TOWARDS RENEWABLE ENERGY,
AND THAT REQUIRES COLLECTIVE
ACTION.
THAT REQUIRES US GETTING
TOGETHER AND MAKING SURE THAT WE
FORCE THE HAND OF OUR
POLICYMAKERS, WE MAKE SURE THAT
OUR POLITICIANS WILL DO WHAT'S
RIGHT FOR US RATHER THAN THE
SPECIAL INTERESTS WHO TOO OFTEN
FUND THEIR CAMPAIGNS.
AND SO THERE'S AGENCY THERE AS
WELL, AND GETTING OUT IN THE
STREET AND DEMONSTRATING AND
VOTING AND RAISING PUBLIC
AWARENESS.
WE HAVE TO DO ALL OF THESE
THINGS, AND ALL OF THEM ARE
EMPOWERING.

Steve says LISE, LET ME READ
SOMETHING TO YOU THAT WAS IN THE
GUARDIAN LAST OCTOBER JUST AFTER
THE IPCC REPORT CAME OUT.
HERE WE GO.
THIS IS REBECCA SOLNUT WRITING...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "With uncertainty there is hope." The quote reads "TAKING ACTION IS THE BEST WAY TO LIVE IN CONDITIONS OF CRISIS AND VIOLATION, FOR YOUR SPIRIT AND YOUR CONSCIENCE, AS WELL AS FOR SOCIETY. IT'S ENTIRELY COMPATIBLE WITH GRIEF AND HORROR; YOU CAN WORK TO ELECT CLIMATE HEROES WHILE BEING SAD. THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES, BUT
JUST AS SOVIET DISSIDENTS PROBABLY DIDN'T IMAGINE THAT THE SOVIET UNION WOULD DISSOLVE ITSELF IN THE EARLY 1990S, SO WE
CAN ANTICIPATE THAT WE DON'T EXACTLY KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN AND HOW OUR ACTIONS WILL HELP SHAPE THE FUTURE.
KNOWING THAT WE DON'T KNOW ISN'T GROUNDS FOR CONFIDENCE, BUT IT IS FUEL AGAINST DESPAIR, WHICH IS A FORM OF CERTAINTY. THIS FUTURE IS UNCERTAIN AS IT'S EVER BEEN."
Quoted from Rebecca Solnit, The Guardian. October 14, 2018.

Steve says WHAT DO WE DO WITH THAT, Lise?

Lisa says WELL, SHE'S RIGHT.
THERE ARE THOSE SORT OF STAGES
OF GRIEF AND BARGAINING AND
ANGER AND ALL THE REST.
AND WE NEED TO TAKE THE ENERGY
OF THOSE EMOTIONS AND TURN IT
INTO ACTION.
AND THIS IS WHAT IS WHAT WE'RE
TALKING ABOUT, THIS EMPOWERING
ACTION.
WITH ANY SITUATION, CHALLENGE
THAT WE'RE FACED WITH, IF WE
JUST ARE KICKING IT AROUND AND
THINKING ABOUT IT AND NOT DOING
ANYTHING ABOUT IT, THE ANXIETY
SITS THERE.
AND I WANT TO UNDERSCORE AGAIN
THAT ANY TIME WE ARE OUT TALKING
TO THE PUBLIC, ANY OF US, OR
WITH OUR FRIENDS AND RELATIVES,
THE ISSUE IS WHAT DO WE WANT TO
COMMUNICATE?
AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS SO
IMPORTANT IS THAT WE WANT TO GO
FROM BEING BYSTANDERS, WATCHING
WHAT'S HAPPENING, TO UPSTANDERS
WHO LOOK AT THE DIFFUSION OF
RESPONSIBILITY OF A BYSTANDER
AND SAY I CAN DO SOMETHING.
I CAN SIGNAL TO ALL THE PEOPLE
AROUND ME THAT MY CARBON
FOOTPRINT HAS BEEN REDUCED BY
SPECIFIC ACTIONS AND THAT THESE
SOCIAL NORMS THAT WE CREATE ARE
MUCH MORE POWERFUL SOMETIMES
THAN ANYTHING WE CAN SAY.
SO IT'S A GRASSROOTS AND A
GRASSTOPS IMPACT ON PEOPLE, BUT
THOSE SOCIAL NORMS, WHEN WE
REACH TIPPING POINTS, WE SAY WE
DON'T DRINK AND DRIVE, WE
PRACTICE SAFE SEX, WE DON'T
SMOKE, BLOW SMOKE IN PEOPLE'S
FACES.
THESE SOCIAL NORMS CAN CHANGE A
CULTURE VERY QUICKLY, AND THAT'S
WHERE WE'VE GOT TO BE.

Steve says JASON, I WONDER IF
PART OF THE TRICK HERE IS THAT
SCIENTISTS THINK THAT THEY CAN
SOLVE EVERY PROBLEM UNDER THE
SUN.
AND THIS MAY BE ONE THAT THEY
CAN'T SOLVE.
AND THAT TAKES THEM DOWN INTO
THE SLEW OF DESPOND, I GUESS.

Jason says YEAH, YOU KNOW, WE KNOW THAT
WARMING IS PROGRAMMED INTO OUR
SYSTEM AND THAT WE'RE GOING TO
SEE UNAVOIDABLE CHANGES IN THE
WORLD AROUND US.
YOU KNOW, BUT AT THE SAME TIME,
THERE ARE SOLUTIONS, POLICIES
AND IDEAS THAT YOU SEE CHANGING,
THE NORMS CHANGING TOWARDS THEM,
FOR INSTANCE.
SO IDEAS ABOUT RENEWABLE ENERGY,
NOT DRIVING TO WORK, YOU KNOW,
AT ALL SCALES, SOME OF THESE
IDEAS ARE NORMATIVELY DIFFERENT
IN THE INCOMING GENERATIONS.
THEY DON'T TAKE... THERE'S VERY
LITTLE CLIMATE DENIALISM, VERY
LITTLE, AND THEY FEEL EMPOWERED
BECAUSE THEY TAKE FOR GRANTED
THAT THIS IS WHAT WE'RE GOING TO
HAVE TO DO.

Steve says YOU SAY THERE'S VERY
LITTLE, BUT THE GUY WITH THE
BIGGEST MICROPHONE IN THE WORLD
IS PART OF IT.

Jason says YES.
YES, THAT... AND THIS IS A
CHALLENGE THAT I THINK ALL OF US
HAVE TO DEAL WITH ON A DAILY
BASIS, AND THAT'S ACTUALLY AS A
SOCIAL SCIENTIST IN ME IS THE
GREATEST SOURCE OF ANXIETY, IS
THAT DESPITE KNOWING THAT WE
HAVE POWER, THE RESOURCES AND
THE IDEAS OF HOW TO SOLVE THIS
PROBLEM, YOU HAVE PEOPLE THAT...
AND THEIR IDEAS THAT TEND TO GET
INTO POWER IN SITUATIONS AND
FURTHER PERPETUATE THAT FEAR AND ANXIETY.

The caption changes to "Walking the line between hope and despair."

Steve says ONE OF THE REASONS
THAT THIS WHOLE ISSUE THAT WE'RE
TALKING ABOUT TONIGHT EXPLODED,
IT WAS ACTUALLY ABOUT FOUR OR
FIVE YEARS AGO, THERE WAS A
CLIMATE SCIENTIST WHO PUT THE
FOLLOWING TWEET OUT.
HE SAID...

A quote from Jason Box appears on screen.

It reads "IF EVEN A SMALL FRACTION OF ARCTIC SEA FLOOR CARBON IS RELEASED TO THE ATMOSPHERE, WE'RE effed."

Steve says MICHAEL, WHAT'S THE BEST WAY TO
COMMUNICATE SCIENCE TO THE PUBLIC?
IS IT THAT KIND OF BRUTAL
HONESTY OR WITH SOME RESTRAINT
AND OPTIMISM, EVEN IF YOU DON'T
TRULY FEEL IT?

The caption changes to "Michael Mann, @MichaelEMann."
Then, it changes again to "Communicating doom."

Michael says WELL, A LITTLE BIT OF BOTH
BECAUSE THE TRUTH IS IN-BETWEEN.
JASON IS A GOOD FRIEND OF MINE,
BUT I DID COMMENT ON TWITTER
MYSELF, MICHAELEMANN ON TWITTER
ABOUT THAT PARTICULAR TWEET, AND
MY POINT IS THAT IT'S NOT
BINARY.
IT'S NOT F-ED OR NOT F-ED.
IT'S A MATTER OF HOW F-ED.
THE MORE CARBON THE WORSE IT
GETS.
THE LESS CARBON WE BURN THE
BETTER CHANCE WE HAVE OF
PRESERVING THIS CLIMATE AND
PLANET FOR OURSELVES, OUR
CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN.
AND ONCE AGAIN, IT POINTS TO THE
AGENCY THAT WE'VE BEEN
DISCUSSING HERE.
WE CAN BECOME ACTIVE
PARTICIPANTS.
WE DON'T HAVE TO WATCH THIS FROM
THE SIDELINES.
THERE ARE ALL THESE THINGS THAT
WE CAN DO FROM AN INDIVIDUAL
STANDPOINT AND FROM A COLLECTIVE
STANDPOINT TO TRY TO MAKE SURE
THAT OUR LEGACY WILL NOT BE THE
DESTRUCTION OF OUR PLANET.

Steve says Lise, CAN I GET YOU ON THAT?
THE BEST WAY IN YOUR JUDGMENT OF
COMMUNICATING AROUND THESE ISSUES?

Lise says WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I'M
MINDFUL... FIRST, I AGREE WITH
WHAT MICHAEL SAYS, OBVIOUSLY.
IT'S NOT A BINARY ISSUE.
AND I'M MINDFUL OF THE
LED-TAINTED WATER IN FLINT.
PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW, AND THEY
WILL BE VERY ANGRY AND UPSET IF
YOU DOWNPLAY OR SUGGEST THAT THE
DATA IS NOT RELIABLE.
THEY NEED TO KNOW THE TRUTH.
THE PUBLIC NEEDS TO HEAR BECAUSE
AFTER ALL, IF IT ISN'T URGENT,
THEN WHAT'S THE REASON?
IF IT'S NOT A CRISIS, WHAT'S THE
NEED FOR URGENT ACTION?
SO WE NEED TO TALK TO THE
PUBLIC, BUT AGAIN, YOU CAN'T
PULL A PERSON'S PANTS DOWN AND
THEN... WITHOUT TURNING AROUND
AND SEGUEING IMMEDIATELY TO
HERE'S WHAT WE CAN DO ABOUT IT.
THAT'S WHERE THE LEGITIMACY OF
TELLING THE PUBLIC THE TRUTH IS.
AND AGAIN, WITH THE FACTS WE'RE
MUCH BETTER... WE'RE IN MUCH
BETTER SHAPE THAN IF WE'RE
TRYING TO PRETEND PUTTING A ROSY
PICTURE ON THINGS.

Steve says OKAY, LET ME DO A
FOLLOW-UP WITH YOU BECAUSE I
NEED A GOOD PSYCHIATRIST AGAIN
TO HELP ME WITH THIS ONE HERE.
PEOPLE MAY BELIEVE IN CLIMATE
CHANGE.
THEY MAY SEE THAT THEIR ACTIONS
ARE CONTRIBUTING TO IT.
THEY SEE THE NEWS AND WATCH
WHAT'S HAPPENING AROUND THE
WORLD.
THEY CAN BELIEVE IT.
AT THE SAME TIME, THEY MAY FEEL
IT'S GONNA SOLVE ITSELF OR IT'S
NOT GONNA BE A PROBLEM FOR
DECADES.
I DON'T REALLY HAVE TO DO
ANYTHING ABOUT THIS AND
THEREFORE ARE IN A STATE OF
EMOTIONAL DENIAL.
CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO US HOW THOSE
THINGS CAN HAPPEN SIMULTANEOUSLY?

The caption changes to "Breaking through denial."

Lise says THERE ARE MYRIAD WAYS AND
REASONS WHY PEOPLE DENY,
DISCOUNT, DISAVOW.
IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, IT
SOUNDS LIKE IT'S A DEPENDENCY
ISSUE WHERE YOU SAY SOMEBODY
ELSE WILL TAKE CARE OF IT.
PEOPLE SOMETIMES DENY BECAUSE
THEY... IT'S EMASCULATING TO BE
A SCAREDY-CAT.
PEOPLE WILL DENY BECAUSE THEY'RE
POLITICAL LIFE DEPENDS ON IT.
THEY WILL DENY BECAUSE THEY ARE
A MEMBER OF A GROUP THAT WOULD
OST SIZE THEM IF THEY QUESTION A
TIGHTLY HELD VALUE WHICH WAS TO
DISCOUNT THE IMPACT.
PEOPLE DENIED OR DISCOUNT
BECAUSE IT IS UNNERVING TO THINK
THAT GOD OR THE WORLD WOULD
SOMEHOW FALL APART.
GOD WOULDN'T DO THIS TO US.
AND SO THERE'S AN OPTIMISM BIAS
JUST BECAUSE OF THE INERTIA IN
OUR WAY OF THINKING.
WE'VE NEVER SEEN THINGS LIKE
THAT BEFORE.
SO THERE ARE COUNTLESS REASONS
WHY WE DENY.
CERTAINLY PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO
TALK ABOUT CLIMATE AT A DINNER
PARTY, WHICH I CAN SHUT DOWN IN
MINUTES, BECAUSE IT IS
ASSOCIATED WITH A SENSE OF DEATH
AND DYING AND IRRETRIEVABLE LOSS
AND THINGS LIKE THAT.
BUT THAT'S BECAUSE, AGAIN, WE
ARE NOT SEGUEING TO WHAT THE
SOCIAL NORM... WHAT WE CAN DO BY
TALKING TO PEOPLE AND SAYING,
LOOK, I DON'T PAY FOR
ELECTRICITY ANYMORE.
I HAVE SOLAR PANELS ON MY ROOF.
YOU SHOULD DO IT TOO.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO SAY A WORD
ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE.
THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF TRICKS,
COMMUNICATION TRICKS THAT CAN
GET PEOPLE TO ACT QUICKLY.

Steve says MATT, YOU CAN OR
CANNOT DISCUSS THIS AT A DINNER PARTY?

Lise says I CAN, BUT I'VE EVEN BEEN
WARNED NOW LATELY BEFORE I OPEN
MY MOUTH TO KEEP IT DOWN.
INVARIABLY I KEEP IT DOWN FOR A
WHILE AND THEN THEY ARE STARTING
TO TALK ABOUT A FOOTBALL TEAM OR
SOMETHING ELSE, ALL VERY
INTERESTING, BUT I START
RATCHETING UP, AND PRETTY SOON
OUT IT COMES.

Steve says MATTHEW, HOW ABOUT YOU?
CAN YOU TALK TO YOUR FRIENDS ABOUT THIS?
I'M GOING TO MATTHEW HERE. GO AHEAD.

Matthew says YES AND NO.
SOMETIMES I DON'T WANT TO TALK
ABOUT IT BECAUSE FRANKLY TALKING
ABOUT IT MAKES ME DEPRESSED.
BUT I THINK, THOUGH, AND GETTING
BACK TO THIS NOTION OF TELLING
THE TRUTH, AT A DINNER PARTY,
THIS IS I THINK IMPORTANT THAT A
CERTAIN AMOUNT OF FEAR AND
ANXIETY, THE TRUTH ABOUT CLIMATE
CHANGE, IS ACTUALLY NECESSARY TO
GENERATE ACTION.
THE PROBLEM IS... THE PARADOX IS
TOO MUCH GENERATES INACTION
BECAUSE THEN THEY'RE LIKE...
WELL, THEN THE FEELINGS OF NOT
HAVING AGENCY.
AND SO I THINK THAT Lise IS
RIGHT.
TELLING THE STORIES ABOUT WHAT
CAN BE DONE AND ALSO I THINK
IMAGINING A LOW-CARBON FUTURE.
IMAGINING WHAT SOCIETY CAN LOOK
LIKE MOVING FORWARD IS
ACTUALLY... THAT'S WHERE YOU GET
SOME REALLY EMPOWERING, AND
THAT'S WHAT I LIKE TO TALK ABOUT
AT DINNER PARTIES, IS NOT THE
SORT OF WHAT WE'RE LOSING BUT
THE STUFF FROM MY OWN RESEARCH
AND FROM OTHER PEOPLE'S RESEARCH
ABOUT WHAT WE'RE HEADING TOWARDS
IF WE CAN KIND OF TAKE THE
ACTION THAT WE KNOW IS
NECESSARY.

Steve says MICHAEL, HOW ABOUT YOU
ON THAT?
CAN YOU TALK TO OTHER PEOPLE
ABOUT IT WITHOUT THEM SAYING TO
YOU, OKAY, WE'VE HEARD ENOUGH?

Michael says MAYBE THIS IS WHY EVERYBODY
LEAVES MY DINNER PARTIES BEFORE
THE MAIN COURSE IS SERVED.
[Laughter].
YOU KNOW, YOU CAN, AND AS A
SCIENTIST, I UNDERSTAND THE
SCIENCE.
I UNDERSTAND THE PROJECTIONS.
I KNOW WHAT THE UNCERTAINTIES
ARE AND WHAT THE LIMITATIONS
ARE.
AND THAT ACTUALLY ONCE AGAIN IS
EMPOWERING BECAUSE I KNOW THAT
WE CAN STILL AVERT CATASTROPHIC
CLIMATE CHANGE.
TOO OFTEN WE ENCOUNTER
INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE CONVINCED
THAT THERE'S NOTHING WE CAN DO,
THAT WE'VE GONE PAST SOME, YOU
KNOW, TIPPING POINT.
THERE ARE INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE
MADE A NAME FOR THEMSELVES BY
ARGUING THAT WE WILL BE EXTINCT
IN 10 YEARS BECAUSE OF
EXPONENTIAL CLIMATE CHANGE,
WHATEVER THAT MEANS.
AND THERE'S NOTHING THAT WE CAN
DO ABOUT IT.
AND THAT'S SIMPLY WRONG.
IT WOULD BE ONE THING IF THAT
WERE TRUE, BUT IT'S NOT.
AN OBJECTIVE ASSESSMENT OF THE
SCIENCE TELLS US THERE IS GREAT
URGENCY.
BAD THINGS ARE HAPPENING, MORE
BAD THINGS ARE GOING TO HAPPEN
INEVITABLY, BUT WE CAN PREVENT
THE WORST.
THE SCIENCE, THE MATH TELLS US THAT.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Steve says LET ME ASK OUR
DIRECTOR FOR A SECOND IF HE CAN
GO ON A WIDE SHOT.
I DON'T KNOW IF HE CAN GET
EVERYBODY ON ALL AT ONCE, BUT I
WONDER IN THE MIDST OF YOUR
LECTURING TO YOUR STUDENTS
WHETHER ANY OF YOU, AND I'M
SORRY I DON'T WANT TO GET TOO
TOUCHY FEELY HERE, BUT THIS IS
WHAT OUR SUBJECT IS ABOUT
TONIGHT, ANYBODY STARTED TO CRY
OR BROKEN DOWN OR JUST HAD AN
EMOTIONAL MOMENT WHERE YOU WERE
OVERCOME?
ANYBODY?
MICHAEL, I SEE YOU NODDING.

Michael says YEP.

Steve says WHAT HAPPENED?

Michael says UMM, SOMETIMES I'LL BE
TALKING ABOUT NOT JUST THE
SCIENCE BUT THE DENIAL, THE
DENIAL INDUSTRY AND THE THINGS
THAT FOSSIL FUEL INTERESTS DID
TO LEAD US ASTRAY THAT ARE SO
LIKE WHAT THE TOBACCO INDUSTRY
DID DECADES TYING TO LEAD US
ASTRAY ON THE HEALTH IMPACTS OF
TOBACCO.
AND I'LL TEAR UP, ESPECIALLY
WHEN I'M TALKING TO AN AUDIENCE
OF YOUNG PEOPLE, BECAUSE YOU
KNOW, WHAT A TERRIBLE INJUSTICE
WE'VE DONE THEM, WE'VE ALLOWED
OTHERS TO DO THEM BY MISLEADING
THEM ON WHAT IS ARGUABLY THE
GREATEST CHALLENGE WE FACE AS A
CIVILIZATION.
AND SOMETIMES I TEAR UP JUST
DESCRIBING THAT, TALKING ABOUT THAT.

The caption changes to "Producer: Eric Bombicino, @ebombicino."

Steve says WELL, ONE OF THE
IRONIES OF THIS PROGRAM IS I
CAN'T RECALL A TIME I LAUGHED AS
MUCH AS I DID ABOUT... DURING A
PROGRAM THAN TONIGHT, SO YOU ALL
HANDLED THE DEPRESSING PART OF
THIS AND ALSO THE GOOD HUMOUR
PART OF THIS QUITE WELL.
SO THANK YOU FOR THAT.
AND FINALLY, AS WELL, LET ME
ANSWER THE QUESTION THAT
EVERYBODY IS PROBABLY THINKING
RIGHT NOW AND WANTS ME TO
CONFIRM ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.
YES, Lise IS VAN SUSTEREN'S
SISTER.
SO WE GOT THAT SETTLED AS WELL.
I WANT TO THANK Lise VAN
SUSTEREN FOR BEING THERE FOR US
FROM WASHINGTON, D.C., MICHAEL
MANN FROM STATE COLLEGE PENNSYLVANIA.
JASON THISTLETHWAITE FROM THE
UNIVERSITY OF WATERLOO.
MATTHEW HOFFMANN FROM THE
UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO
SCARBOROUGH.
GREAT OF ALL OF YOU TO COME ON
TVO
TONIGHT.
THANKS SO MUCH.

The guests say THANK YOU.

Watch: Burnout and Despair: Studying the Climate