Transcript: Mental Health and Climate Change | Dec 04, 2018

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and checked purple tie.

A caption on screen reads "Mental health and climate change. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says THE INCREASED IMPACTS
OF CLIMATE CHANGE, INCLUDING
DEVASTATING FLOODING, WILDFIRES,
AND HURRICANES, CARRIES ENORMOUS
COSTS IN PROPERTY DAMAGE AND, OF
COURSE, LIVES LOST.
AND NEW RESEARCH IS NOW POINTING
TO ANOTHER CONSEQUENCE THAT'S
NOT ALWAYS AS VISIBLE: MENTAL
HEALTH EFFECTS.
HERE TO EXPLAIN:
KATIE HAYES, PhD CANDIDATE AT
THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO'S
DALLA LANA SCHOOL OF PUBLIC
HEALTH, AND A CONTRACTOR WITH
HEALTH CANADA'S CLIMATE CHANGE
AND INNOVATION BUREAU...

Katie is in her late thirties, with blond hair in a bob. She's wearing a black blazer over a white blouse, and a golden pendant necklace.

Steve continues AND MELANIE GOODCHILD, RESEARCH
FELLOW AT THE WATERLOO INSTITUTE
FOR SOCIAL INNOVATION AND
RESILIENCE AT THE U OF W.

Melanie is in her late thirties, with short dark hair. She's wearing glasses, a black cardigan and a black shirt.

Steve continues MELANIE, GOOD TO HAVE YOU BACK
IN THAT CHAIR.
KATIE, NICE TO MEET YOU FOR THE
FIRST TIME, TO HAVE YOU HERE.
LET ME START WITH YOU, KATIE.
IN A REPORT YOU JUST
PUBLISHED... SHELDON, WHY DON'T
WE BRING THIS GRAPHIC UP HERE...
YOU SAY...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Threat assessment." The quote reads "It is well understood that climate change affects health; most articles addressing the topic area cite the proclamation [in the Lancet], that 'climate change is the biggest global health threat of the 21st century,' where health is understood to mean physical health. The lesser known, and often overlooked, health impact of climate change is the mental health implications from our changing climate."
Quoted from Katie Hayes and Blake Poland, International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health. September 2018.

Steve says NOW, THIS IS
FASCINATING BECAUSE THIS IS NOT
SOMETHING I THINK MOST PEOPLE
THINK OF, AND I GUESS WE SHOULD
JUST START WITH THIS: HOW DID
THAT GET ON YOUR RADAR SCREEN IN
THE FIRST PLACE, THE NOTION THAT
MENTAL HEALTH COULD BE A
CONSEQUENCE OF CLIMATE CHANGE AS
WELL?

The caption changes to "Katie Hayes. University of Toronto."

Katie says SURE.
WELL, I THINK IT REALLY CAME
FROM THREE DIFFERENT AREAS.
SO FIRSTLY WE KNOW THAT MENTAL
HEALTH IS ONE OF THE MOST
NEGLECTED HEALTH ISSUES OF OUR
TIME, AND THEN WE KNOW THAT
CLIMATE CHANGE IS THE LARGEST
GLOBAL HEALTH THREAT OF THE 21ST
CENTURY.
AND HEALTH INCLUDES MENTAL
HEALTH.
SO SEEING THE PARALLELS, THAT
THERE'S AN UNDER RESEARCHED AREA
IN MENTAL HEALTH AND CLIMATE
CHANGE IS CONTRIBUTING.
AND SEEING THE VAST ARRAY OF
DIFFERENT RESPONSES FROM PEOPLE
WHO HAVE EXPERIENCED EXTREME
WEATHER EVENTS LIKE FLOODING OR
HURRICANE, COMING OUT OF
HURRICANE KATRINA OR THE
FLOODING IN 2013 IN HIGH RIVER,
ALBERTA, AND ALSO SEEING THE
SLOW CREEPING CLIMATE CHANGES,
LIKE RISING TEMPERATURES,
MELTING PERMAFROST, AND WHAT
THAT DOES FOR PEOPLE'S SENSE OF
PLACE, ANXIETY, DEPRESSION,
WORRY... ALL OF THOSE COMPONENTS
COMING TOGETHER.

Steve says THAT IS SOMETHING I
WAS GOING TO FOLLOW UP ON.
THERE'S NO QUESTION, IF YOU
WATCH THE NEWS, YOU CAN SEE THE
DAMAGE DONE TO THE PLANET.

Katie says ABSOLUTELY.

Steve says BUT YOU ARE NOW
COMFORTABLE MAKING THE
ADDITIONAL LINK AND YOU THINK
THERE IS ADEQUATE EVIDENCE TO
SUGGEST THAT THERE IS THIS NEW
ANGLE AS WELL?

Katie says ABSOLUTELY, YEAH.

Steve says IN NOVEMBER, WE
TALKED TO THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR
OF A GROUP CALLED NATURE CANADA,
HIS NAME IS GRAHAM SAUL, HE WAS
IN THAT CHAIR.
HE HAD THIS TO SAY ABOUT THE
LACK OF A QUOTE, UNQUOTE,
DYNAMIC LEADER AT THE FOREFRONT
OF THE CLIMATE CHANGE
EXPERIENCE.
HERE'S HIS CLIP.
SHELDON, PLEASE.

A clip plays on screen with the caption "Graham Saul. Nature Canada. November 7, 2018."
In the clip, Graham talks in the studio. He's in his fifties, with short brown hair and a goatee.

He says IT'S THE EVERYDAY FOLKS AND
THE ACTIVISTS AND THE SCHOLARS
AND THE ACADEMICS AND THE
JOURNALISTS AND THE POLITICIANS
THAT ARE WAKING UP EVERY DAY AND
DOING THEIR OWN LITTLE BIT TO
MOVE US IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION
THAT ULTIMATELY MAKES FOR A
POWERFUL SOCIAL MOVEMENT.
BUT AT THE SAME TIME THERE'S NO
QUESTION THAT WE NEED MORE
LEADERSHIP.
IN THE CANADIAN CONTEXT, FROM AN
EXECUTIVE PERSPECTIVE, FROM THE
PERSPECTIVE OF PEOPLE THAT ARE
ACTUALLY LEADING GOVERNMENTS,
WHERE YOU SEE IT COMING FROM
MOST RIGHT NOW IS INDIGENOUS
LEADERSHIP.

The clip ends.

Steve says MELANIE, DO YOU ECHO
THAT?

The caption changes to "Melanie Goodchild. Waterloo Institute for Social Innovation and Resilience."
Then, it changes again to "Indigenous impact."

Melanie says YEAH, I DO.
I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE
TALK ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE, WE
TEND TO THINK OF IT AS NOT
REALLY IN A HOLISTIC WAY.
I'M SORRY A SYSTEMS THINKER.
I STUDY SYSTEMS THINKING AND
COMPLEXITY THEORY AND WHAT
INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS DO
AND CONTRIBUTE TO THAT
LEADERSHIP OF INDIGENOUS LEADERS
IS LOOKING AT THE INTERCONNECTED
WEB OF LIFE AND UNDERSTANDING
THAT COMPARTMENTALIZING
SOMETHING, LIKE THE
ENVIRONMENT... YOU KNOW, THE
SEPARATION OF NATURE AND
HUMANKIND, IS WHAT GOT US INTO
THIS PREDICAMENT THAT WE'RE IN.
AND WHAT INDIGENOUS CULTURES DO
IS THEY PRIVILEGE THE
ENVIRONMENT AS OPPOSED TO
PRIVILEGING HUMANITY.
AND SO I THINK THAT'S A HUGE
DIFFERENCE IN THE, I GUESS YOU
COULD SAY, THE ONTOLOGY, THE
WORLD VIEW OF INDIGENOUS
LEADERS.
AND THOSE INDIGENOUS LEADERS ARE
SPEAKING OUT ON BEHALF OF MOTHER
NATURE BECAUSE IT'S THEIR
RESPONSIBILITY AND THEIR
OBLIGATION.

Steve says LET ME ASK THE SAME
FOLLOW-UP: YOU ARE SEEING DIRECT
EVIDENCE AMONG INDIGENOUS PEOPLE
OF THE MENTAL HEALTH IMPACTS OF
CLIMATE CHANGE?
YES?

The caption changes to "Melanie Goodchild. University of Waterloo."

Melanie says YES, DEFINITELY.
I'M SEEING IT RIGHT AT THE
INDIVIDUAL GRASS ROOTS LEVEL:
HUNTERS, FISHERS, PEOPLE WHO ARE
OUT ON THE LAND AND THEY'RE
MAKING OBSERVATIONS.
MY AUNTIES AND UNCLES ARE MAKING
OBSERVATIONS ABOUT THE ANIMALS
ARE BEHAVING DIFFERENTLY.
THE BEARS ARE COMING INTO THE
COMMUNITY MORE OFTEN.
THEY'RE NOT HIBERNATING WHEN
THEY USED TO BECAUSE
TEMPERATURES ARE SO WARM.
SO ALL OF OUR RELATIVES ARE
CONFUSED.
THEY'RE CONFUSED LIKE WE ARE,
AND THEY'RE STRESSED.
I WOULD ACTUALLY SAY THAT YOU
COULD SAY THAT THE ANIMALS
THEMSELVES ARE EXPERIENCING
STRESS BECAUSE OF CLIMATE
CHANGE.

Steve says KATIE, I WANT TO GO
BACK TO THAT STUDY WE QUOTED
EARLIER, YOUR STUDY, AND HERE WE
GO AGAIN...

Another quote from the report appears on screen, under the title "On the margins." The quote reads "Climate change health effects amplify existing inequities -placing marginalized people, who generally have contributed the least to the climate change problem, at the greatest risk.
In Canada's circumpolar north, a team of researchers conducted a multi-year study on the climate change-related mental health implications to Inuit people. They found that warming temperatures and melting sea ice affect food security, culture, travel, and autonomy of Inuit people, thus impacting a sense of place and identity and contributing to mental health problems and addictions."

Steve says TELL US MORE ABOUT
THAT STUDY AND WHY YOU THINK YOU
COULD GO THERE WITH THAT CONCLUSION?

Katie says SURE.
SO THAT WAS REALLY LED BY A
DOCTOR OUT IN MUNN.
TO HER AND HER TEAM OF
RESEARCHERS REALLY SAW THE
ECOLOGICAL GRIEF AS A RESULT OF
A CHANGING CLIMATE TO
TRADITIONAL PRACTICES,
FOOD-GATHERING, BEING ABLE TO
TRAVEL, AND STARTING TO SEE A
LOT OF ANXIETY, WORRY, STRESS,
DEPRESSION RELATED TO THE
CHANGING ENVIRONMENT.
AND SO WE KNOW THAT CLIMATE
CHANGE CAN AFFECT ANYONE AT ANY
TIME, BUT WE DO KNOW THAT
CLIMATE CHANGE
DISPROPORTIONATELY AFFECTS THOSE
WHO ARE ALREADY MARGINALIZED IN
OUR SOCIETY.
I THINK THAT'S A REALLY STRONG
FOCUS AREA THAT WE NEED TO BRING
THIS RESEARCH, PARTICULARLY WHEN
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MENTAL
HEALTH, TO THOSE WHO ARE MORE
MARGINALIZED.

Steve says IS THERE AN ANGLE
HERE, MELANIE, IN TERMS OF ICE ROADS?

Melanie says FOR SURE.

Steve says WHAT ANGLE?

Melanie says I USED TO WORK WITH A TRIBAL
COUNCIL IN NORTHERN ONTARIO,
YOU'VE PROBABLY HAD GUESTS ON
FROM NAN BEFORE.

Steve says FOR SURE.

Melanie says THE GRAND CHIEF SPOKE TO THIS
LAST YEAR, THAT THE ICE ROADS
ARE A SOURCE OF SUPPLY FOR
PEOPLE IN 31 REMOTE FIRST
NATIONS, AND WHEN THERE'S
WARMING TEMPERATURES, THEY ARE
SEEING EITHER THE ICE ROADS
BEING SHORTER, THE TIME FRAME
THAT THEY CAN USE THE ICE ROADS,
OR THAT THEY'RE NOT ACTUALLY
EVEN HAVING AN OPPORTUNITY TO
HAVE ICE ROADS.
AND THAT CUTS PEOPLE OFF FROM A
REALLY IMPORTANT SUPPLY ROUTE,
IN TERMS OF THEIR OWN PERSONAL
SUPPLIES, BUT ALSO BUILDING
SUPPLIES, DIESEL FOR HEATING.
SO THERE'S A BIG PRICE TO PAY
WHEN THE CLIMATE CHANGE COSTS
ARE MORE THAN FINANCIAL COSTS.
THEY'RE ACTUALLY... YOU'RE
LOOKING AT A HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUE,
I THINK, WHEN YOU'RE SEEING, YOU
KNOW, THE TEMPERATURES BEING
AFFECTED SO MUCH.

Steve says SO YOU CAN IMAGINE A
SITUATION WHERE THE TEMPERATURES
GET SO WARM THAT THESE ICE
ROADS, WHICH INDIGENOUS
COMMUNITIES DEPEND ON TO GET
THEIR SUPPLIES, WILL SIMPLY NOT
BE THERE ANYMORE.

Melanie says YEAH.
IT CERTAINLY BRINGS UP A
QUESTION OF INFRASTRUCTURE AND
WHAT TO DO ABOUT PERMANENT
ROADS.
YOU KNOW, THE PEOPLE ARE IN
SMALL COMMUNITIES SPREAD ACROSS
A VAST GEOGRAPHY, BUT REALLY
THOSE ICE ROADS WERE SOMETHING
YOU COULD RELY ON HISTORICALLY.
I REMEMBER BEING IN SIOUX
LOOKOUT AND SEEING SOMEONE GOING
UP AN ICE ROAD AND THEY HAD
JERRYCANS AND IT WAS A 27-HOUR
DRIVE ON ICE ROADS TO GET BACK
TO THEIR COMMUNITY WITH A
TRUCKLOAD OF SUPPLIES FOR THEIR
FAMILY.

Steve says THE NOTION THAT THAT
ICE ROAD MIGHT NOT BE THERE
COULD HAVE QUITE AN ADVERSE
IMPACT ON YOUR MENTAL HEALTH.

Melanie says FOR SURE, YEAH, I THINK SO.

Steve says WHERE ARE WE GOING
HERE?
GRAHAM SAUL, ONE MORE THING HE
SAID.
HERE'S A QUOTE:
"ENVIRONMENTALISTS DON'T DO HOPE
VERY WELL.
WE TRAFFIC MAINLY IN FEAR, IF
WE'RE GOING TO BE HONEST WITH
OURSELVES."
HOW MUCH DOES THAT, IN YOUR
VIEW, CONTRIBUTE TO WHATEVER
MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES ARE
HAPPENING OUT THERE?

The caption changes to "Hope and fear."

Katie says I THINK FEAR
IS A BIG RESTING POST FOR
CLIMATE CHANGE CONVERSATION.
WE TALK A LOT ABOUT THESE ALARM
BELLS THAT WE'RE RINGING, AND AS
WE SHOULD.
IT'S A HUGE PROBLEM THAT WE NEED
TO START ADDRESSING AND IT DOES
AND IT CAN INCITE WORRY, FEAR,
AND ANXIETY IN PEOPLE.
WHAT I REALLY THINK NEEDS TO BE
APPROACHED IS THIS... NOT JUST
HOPE, BECAUSE I THINK WHEN WE
HOPE, WE SOMETIMES RELY ON
OTHERS FOR ACTION OR WE MAY BE
VERY PASSIVE IN OUR HOPEFULNESS.
I THINK WHAT WE REALLY NEED TO
AIM TOWARDS IS SOMETHING THAT
JOANNA MACY CALLS ACTIVE HOPE.

Steve says WHO IS THAT?

Katie says SHE IS A SCHOLAR, A SYSTEMS
BASE THINKER IN THE U.S., THAT
DOES WORK ON ECOLOGICAL
DEGRADATION AND HOW DO WE WORK
THROUGH OUR GRIEF TO ACTION.
FOR ME, I REALLY APPRECIATE HER
APPROACH TO ACTIVE HOPE WHERE WE
DO NEED TO HAVE HOPE THAT WE CAN
GET OURSELVES OUT OF THIS MESS,
THAT WE CAN ADAPT TO THE MESS
THAT WE'RE IN, BUT ALSO THAT WE
CAN DO IT WITH A SENSE OF
COMMUNITY, COMMUNITY ACTION
ORIENTED TOWARDS GROUPS COMING
TOGETHER, INDIVIDUAL BEHAVIOUR
CHANGE, BUT ALSO PETITIONING
GOVERNMENTS AND INDUSTRY TOWARDS
MISSION AND ADAPTATION
OPPORTUNITIES.

Steve says COULD THAT TURN
AROUND, THE MENTAL HEALTH
ADVERSE EFFECTS PEOPLE ARE
SUFFERING FROM RIGHT NOW IF IT
WERE TO TAKE OFF?

Katie says YEAH, SO I THINK ONE OF THE
BIG POINTS OF ADDRESSING THE
MENTAL HEALTH COMPLICATIONS OF
CLIMATE CHANGE, WHAT I'VE SEEN
IN MY RESEARCH, IS THAT WHAT
GETS PEOPLE THROUGH THESE
DIFFICULT EMOTIONS AND
BEHAVIOURS IS A SENSE OF
COMMUNITY, COMING TOGETHER WITH
ALTRUISTIC VALUES AND EFFORTS TO
ADDRESS THE CLIMATE CHANGE
PROBLEM, AND THAT'S SOMETHING
THAT REALLY SUPPORTS THAT
ADAPTATION THAT WE NEED TO SEE.

Steve says PART OF THE
CONSTRUCTIVE SOLUTION THEN TO
SOME OF THESE ISSUES HAS BEEN,
AT LEAST OVER THE PAST SEVERAL
YEARS, SOME GREEN ENERGY
PROJECTS THAT WERE GREEN LIT BY
THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT OF
ONTARIO THAT WERE GOING IN IN
REMOTE COMMUNITIES IN NORTHERN
ONTARIO, FOR EXAMPLE.
WE KNOW THAT THE NEW GOVERNMENT
OF ONTARIO HAS TAKEN OVER.
IT HAS LOOKED AT MANY OF THESE
GREEN ENERGY PROJECTS, FEELS
THAT THE BOTTOM LINE THAT THE
PROVINCE IS UNABLE TO AFFORD
THEM ANYMORE, AND THEREFORE MANY
OF THEM HAVE BEEN CANCELLED.
WHAT'S THE IMPACT?

Melanie says I THINK
THE IMPACT OVERALL, THE 2015,
YOU KNOW, TARGETS OF
TRANSITIONING TO RENEWABLE
ENERGY SOURCES BY 2050 IS
100 PERCENT AND WE'RE NOT GOING
TO REACH THAT TARGET IF WE
REVERSE, YOU KNOW, THE
COMMITMENT TO GREEN ENERGY OR TO
RENEWABLE ENERGY SOURCES.
THERE'S QUITE A BIT OF
DEVELOPMENT IN THAT SECTOR THAT
MAKES IT COMPETITIVE WITH THE
FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY, AND THE
FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY IS A MAJOR
CONTRIBUTING FACTOR TO
GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS AND TO,
YOU KNOW, BASICALLY WE LIVE IN
AN ECONOMY THAT'S VERY FOCUSED
ON FOSSIL FUELS AND UNRENEWABLE
RESOURCES THAT HAVE FINITE
BOUNDARIES... WELL, THE PLANET
HAS FINITE BOUNDARIES, AND
BECAUSE THOSE RESOURCES DO.
SO I THINK IT WOULD BE REALLY
DETRIMENTAL TO THE ASPIRATIONS
OF THOSE PARTICULAR COMMUNITIES
WHO WERE COMMITTED TO FINDING
ALTERNATIVE ENERGY SOURCES...

Steve says CAN WE DO ONE
EXAMPLE HERE?
CURVE LAKE FIRST NATION.
WE HAD THE GRAND CHIEF IN FOR AN
INTERVIEW A FEW MONTHS AGO.
LOST ITS STAKE IN TWO
MULTIMILLION DOLLAR PROJECTS.
FIRST NATIONS HAVE BEEN
PARTICIPATING I GATHER IN ABOUT
A THIRD OF THE PROJECTS THE
GOVERNMENT SCRAPPED.
WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO CURVE
LAKE WITH THE CANCELLATION OF
ITS INVESTMENTS AND PROJECTS?

Melanie says I THINK THERE'S HOPE THAT
THERE WOULD BE A REVERSAL TO
THIS.
THE GLOBAL ECONOMY NEEDS...
ACTUALLY IS THE UNDERLYING
CAUSE.
WHEN YOU MAKE A FINANCIAL
ARGUMENT AGAINST THE COST OF
SOME OF THESE, YOU KNOW,
MEASURES, ULTIMATELY, EVEN THE
WORLD BANK HAS SAID THAT IT'S
BETTER TO FIGHT CLIMATE CHANGE
AND TO WEIGH THOSE COSTS WITH
WHAT WE'RE GOING TO PAY IN THE
FUTURE.
AND SO I THINK THAT CURVE LAKE
AND OTHER FIRST NATIONS, YOU
KNOW, ARE GOING TO SUFFER
BECAUSE THEY'RE TRYING TO
PROTECT THE ENVIRONMENT AND ALSO
LOOKING AT IT AS A SOURCE OF
PARTICIPATING IN THE ECONOMY.

Steve says KATIE, LET ME MAKE
THE GOVERNMENT'S ARGUMENT.
THERE IS, BY VARIOUS MEASURES,
EITHER A 15 BILLION dollar OR A
14.5 BILLION OR A 7 BILLION...
PICK WHATEVER FIGURE YOU LIKE...
THE BOOKS OF THE PROVINCE ARE IN
ROUGH SHAPE RIGHT NOW.
AND IN THEIR VIEW, THEY HAD TO
MAKE SOME AWFULLY HARD DECISIONS
IN ORDER TO TRY TO GET THOSE
BOOKS BACK INTO SHAPE.
WHAT WOULD YOU ADVISE THEM ABOUT
THIS?

The caption changes to "Katie Hayes, @katieahayes."

Katie says I THINK THAT,
AS MELANIE WAS SAYING, WE ARE
SEEING THAT THERE ARE LONG-TERM
COSTS AND CONSEQUENCES OF
CLIMATE CHANGE, AND WE'RE NOT
JUST GOING TO SEE THEM 20, 30
YEARS DOWN THE ROAD, WE'RE
SEEING THEM NOW, ESPECIALLY TO
OUR HEALTH SYSTEM.
SO WHEN WE LOOK AT MENTAL
HEALTH, FOR EXAMPLE, MENTAL
HEALTH DOESN'T RECEIVE AS MUCH
FINANCES AS DOES OUR HEALTH CARE
SYSTEM, AND SO WE ARE STARTING
TO SEE PEOPLE WHO ARE NEEDING TO
RELY ON THE MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM
AND THOSE ARE DOLLARS THERE.
SO WE NEED TO REALLY HAVE THIS
CONVERSATION THAT THE FINANCIAL
IMPACT IS NOT JUST THE FINANCIAL
IMPACT TO THE FOSSIL FUEL
INDUSTRY OR TO INDUSTRIES IN
GENERAL, BUT WE HAVE TO LOOK AT
THE LONG-TERM ECONOMIC COSTS
THAT ARE GOING TO WEIGH ON OUR
HEALTH SYSTEM.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Steve says POLITICS DOESN'T DO
THAT WELL.
POLITICS DOESN'T REALLY LOOK
FOUR OR EIGHT YEARS DOWN THE
ROAD, IT'S HOW YOU GET THROUGH
THE NEXT QUARTER.
WHAT CAN YOU SAY TO GET SOMEBODY
TO DEAL IN THE... IF YOU DON'T
PAY NOW, YOU'RE GOING TO PAY
LATER ATTITUDE?

Katie says I THINK WE NEED TO REALLY
START TO RING THE ALARM BELLS
WHEN WE HAVE THESE DISASTERS,
WHEN WE HAVE THESE WILDFIRES OUT
WEST, WHEN WE HAVE FLOODING UP
NORTH, WHEN WE HAVE THESE HEAT
WAVES THROUGHOUT QUEBEC, THAT
THOSE ARE COSTS TO
INFRASTRUCTURE, TO OUR HEALTH
SYSTEM, AND REALLY SHINING A
LIGHT THAT THOSE EVENTS ARE
REALLY SPARKING LONG-TERM COSTS
AND CONSEQUENCES OF LIVES LOST
AND ALSO ON OUR HEALTH SYSTEM.
SO I THINK HAVING THAT
RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THESE
EVENTS AND WHAT IT MEANS TO
PEOPLE AND POCKETBOOKS IS AN
IMPORTANT STORY TO TELL.

Steve says MELANIE, I'M GOING
TO GET YOU TO COMMENT ON THIS
NEXT PIECE.
I'M GOING TO READ SOMETHING FROM
PETER FOSTER WRITING IN THE
NATIONAL POST LAST MONTH WHO HAD
THE FOLLOWING TO SAY AND-OR
WRITE...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "The cost of green." The quote reads "The International Energy Agency's latest World Energy Outlook report projects that global fossil fuel use -and related emissions- will grow out to 2040, as oil, gas and coal continue to dominate the energy picture. But it also struggles to put a positive spin on wind and solar. Solar had a 'record-setting' year in 2017. The Chinese solar business is 'booming.' New wind and solar additions 'outpaced those of fossil fuels in 2017, driven by policy support and declining costs.
'Policy support' means subsidies worth hundreds of millions of dollars. As for declining costs, solar is at least twice as expensive a generator as coal and almost twice as expensive as gas."
Quoted from Peter Foster, The Financial Post. November 22, 2018.

Steve says WHEN THESE ARGUMENTS
ARE MADE, WHAT DO YOU COME BACK WITH?

The caption changes to "Melanie Goodchild, @leaders_indig."
Then, it changes again to "The economics of climate action."

Melanie says WELL,
THE CHALLENGE IS THAT CLIMATE
CHANGE ITSELF SUFFERS FROM AN
ISSUE OF COMPLEXITY.
SO WE WANT TO HEAR SIMPLE
SOLUTIONS, AND WE WANT TO HEAR,
YOU KNOW, WHAT WE THINK ARE
SHORT-TERM, UNDERSTANDABLE,
FAVOURABLE OPTIONS.
WHAT'S DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND
IS THAT THE LONG-TERM
CONSEQUENCES AND THE COMPLEXITY,
THE MULTIPLE FACTORS THAT ARE
INVOLVED IN ALL OF THESE THINGS
RELATED TO CLIMATE CHANGE,
INCLUDING, YOU KNOW, THE FOSSIL
FUEL INDUSTRY BEING HEAVILY
SUBSIDIZED, IS THAT REALLY THE
COST THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT
IS SOMETHING THAT CAN'T BE
MEASURED NECESSARILY
FINANCIALLY.
BUT THAT'S DIFFICULT TO SAY.
THAT'S A DIFFICULT MESSAGE TO
CONVEY.
IT'S DIFFICULT, LIKE YOU SAY,
WHEN POLITICIANS ARE GETTING
REELECTED, THERE ARE... YOU
KNOW, PEOPLE UNDERSTAND
FINANCIAL LOGIC.
BUT THAT'S A REALLY SIMPLE AND
FACILE, I GUESS YOU COULD SAY,
ARGUMENT, THE FINANCIAL...
BECAUSE IT'S A FINANCIAL LOGIC
THAT GOES UNQUESTIONED, AND
WHAT'S UNQUESTIONED IS
HYPER CONSUMPTION, WASTEFUL
PRODUCTIONS, ALSO THE IDEA THAT,
YOU KNOW, THE CONSUMER SOCIETY
THAT WE'RE IN... IT'S EASIER TO
SAY, WELL, THAT'S JUST THE WAY
IT IS, AND IT'S DIFFICULT FOR
MOST OF US, YOU KNOW, KIND OF
REGULAR FOLKS, TO UNDERSTAND
THAT WE CAN HAVE AN IMPACT ON
IT.
BUT WE CAN.
THAT'S THE SOCIAL MOVEMENT THAT
I THINK YOUR OTHER GUEST WAS
TALKING ABOUT PREVIOUSLY.
IT REALLY TAKES EVERYBODY TO
UNDERSTAND THIS AND NOT JUST
ENVIRONMENTALISTS PER SE OR
SCIENTISTS OR ECOLOGICAL
ECONOMISTS, THAT I MYSELF AS A
CONSUMER CAN DO SOMETHING AND
PUT PRESSURE ON SO THAT THERE'S
SOMETHING DONE INSTITUTIONALLY.

The caption changes to "Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live."

Steve says YEAH, BUT EVEN IF
YOU DO... KATIE, WE HAVE A
FEDERAL ELECTION COMING IN 11
MONTHS.
AND MY BET THERE WON'T BE TOO
MANY CANDIDATES RUNNING IN THAT
ELECTION TALKING ABOUT WHAT'S
HAPPENING IN THIS COUNTRY AND
THIS WORLD IN THE YEAR 2040.
SO WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO ABOUT
THAT?

Katie says AGAIN, I THINK
IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO
COMMUNICATE THE HEALTH IMPACTS.
TO HAVE THE STORIES TOLD.
TO LEND PEOPLE'S EAR TO WHAT IT
MEANS TO THE PEOPLE, TO
CANADIANS, WHAT'S HAPPENING TO
OUR HEALTH.

Steve says IN WHICH CASE, TELL
ME IF HEALTH CANADA IS SEIZED OF
THIS ISSUE.

Katie says SURE.
I'M WORKING WITH HEALTH CANADA
RIGHT NOW ON THE NEXT CLIMB
CHANGE AND HEALTH ASSESSMENT
THAT'S DUE OUT IN 2021.
THIS WILL BE A FULL REPORT
LOOKING AT THE HEALTH IMPACTS OF
CLIMATE CHANGE, AND I'M LEADING
THE CHAPTER ON CLIMATE CHANGE
AND MENTAL HEALTH.
SO FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME THERE
WILL BE A CHAPTER SPECIFICALLY
FOCUSED ON THE MENTAL HEALTH
IMPACTS.
THIS WILL PROVIDE CANADIANS,
PUBLIC HEALTH AUTHORITIES, WITH
THE INFORMATION THAT THEY NEED
TO UNDERSTAND WHAT ARE THE
CURRENT HEALTH ISSUES RELATED TO
OUR CLIMATE HAZARDS BUT ALSO
WHAT ARE THE OPPORTUNITIES?
HOW CAN WE SUPPORT ADAPTATION?
IS I THINK THAT THAT'S A REALLY
STRONG PIECE OF INFORMATION THAT
IS GOING TO BE AVAILABLE TO ALL
CANADIANS, TO HAVE THIS AT THEIR
SIDE TO REALLY HAVE A STRONG
UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT IT CAN
MEAN FOR THEM AND THEIR FAMILY.

The caption changes to "A national effort."

Steve says FOR NON-INDIGENOUS
CANADIANS, THIS MAY BE THE FIRST
TIME THIS IS ON THEIR RADAR
SCREEN.
BECAUSE FRANKLY, I'VE HEARD
PRECIOUS LITTLE TALK ABOUT THIS
AT ALL.
SO YOU MAY BE GETTING IT OUT
THERE TO GET SOME ATTENTION FOR
THE FIRST TIME EVER.

Katie says YEAH.
SO WHAT'S REALLY INTERESTING IS
THAT THERE ARE CLIMATE CHANGE
ASSESSMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN DONE
AROUND THE GLOBE, DIFFERENT
GOVERNMENTS ARE MANDATED TO DO
SO, IN THE U.S., FOR EXAMPLE,
AND THEY IN THEIR LAST REPORT IN
2016 HAD A MENTAL HEALTH
CHAPTER, AS DID THE U.K.
SO THIS IS REALLY THE FIRST TIME
IN CANADA THAT WE'RE GOING TO
SEE THE MENTAL HEALTH HAVE A
SPOTLIGHT ON IT.
AND SO I THINK THAT REALLY WHAT
WE'RE STARTING TO SEE IS PEOPLE
ARE HUNGRY FOR THIS INFORMATION.
I KNOW WHEN I TALK TO PUBLIC
HEALTH AUTHORITIES, THEY ARE
REALLY HUNGRY TO HAVE THIS
INFORMATION.
THEY WANT TO KNOW WHAT'S BEING
DONE, BECAUSE TRADITIONALLY
THERE HASN'T BEEN A LOT OF
RESEARCH IN THIS AREA.
SO I THINK WE'RE JUST STARTING
TO TURN THE PAGE AND SEE THE
VALUE IN THIS TYPE OF
INFORMATION.

Steve says IS INDIGENOUS
KNOWLEDGE BEING BROUGHT TO BEAR
TO CONTRIBUTE TO HEALTH CANADA
AS WELL?

Melanie says YOU
KNOW, I CAN'T SPEAK TO THE
SPECIFICS, BUT IN MY... WITH
HEALTH CANADA.
BUT MY EXPERIENCE HAS BEEN
INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS AND
THE WISDOM ENCODED IN THE
LANGUAGE AND THE STORIES, YOU
KNOW, THERE'S A LAKOTA SCHOLAR,
MARIA YELLOW HORSE BRAVEHEART,
TALKS ABOUT THE MEMORIAL PEOPLE
AND CARRYING IN YOUR DNA THOSE
EXPERIENCES.
ALSO THE RESILIENCE THAT YOU
CARRY.
AND I THINK THAT'S AN IMPORTANT
PART OF THE DISCUSSION, THAT
INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS CAN
CONTRIBUTE TO.
OUR MEDICINE WHEEL, FOR EXAMPLE,
THE MEDICINE WHEEL TEACHING
TALKS ABOUT SPIRITUALITY,
MENTAL, EMOTIONAL AND PHYSICAL.
WE'VE ALWAYS HAD THE FRAMEWORK
OF HOLISTIC THINKING AND
BALANCE, AND THE PRESENCE OF
BALANCE AS OPPOSED TO THE
ABSENCE OF DISEASE.
SO INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS
HAVE BEEN CHALLENGING THE
COMPARTMENTAL APPROACH OF THE
BIOMEDICAL MODEL FOR QUITE SOME
TIME NOW.

Steve says AS GRAHAM SAUL TOLD
US A MONTH OR SO AGO, THE
LANGUAGE AND THE WORDS YOU USE
WHEN... I GUESS CONFRONTING IS
THE RIGHT WORD... WHEN TRYING TO
CONFRONT THE PEOPLE OF CANADA
WITH THIS ISSUE, IS KEY, RIGHT?
BECAUSE YOU CAN EITHER TURN THEM
ON OR TURN THEM OFF.
DO WE NEED A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE
RIGHT NOW IN DISCUSSING ALL OF
THESE ISSUES?

Katie says IT'S
INTERESTING THAT YOU SAY THAT.
HAVING RESEARCHED THIS FOR A
NUMBER OF YEARS, THERE IS
ALREADY LANGUAGE THAT EXISTS
WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MENTAL
HEALTH AND CLIMATE CHANGE.
IT'S NOT A TANGIBLE LANGUAGE FOR
EVERYDAY CANADIANS, BUT THERE IS
A LANGUAGE THAT WE DO NEED TO
START BRINGING TO THE FOREFRONT.
SO THINGS LIKE ECO GRIEF.
WHAT DOES ECO GRIEF MEAN?

Steve says I'VE NEVER HEARD
THAT WORD BEFORE.
IT'S SELF EXPLANATORY, BUT...

Katie says IT'S A NORMAL RESPONSE TO
LOSS AND LAMENT FOR
ENVIRONMENTAL DEGRADATION
RELATED TO CLIMATE CHANGE AND
FUTURE LOSSES.
SO REALLY HAVING THIS SENSE OF
SEEING ENVIRONMENTAL CHANGE
AROUND YOU AND FEELING AS THOUGH
YOU DON'T HAVE ANY CONTROL OVER
THESE CHANGES.
OTHER SCHOLARS SAY IT BASICALLY
MEANS YOUR HOME SICK WHEN YOU'RE
AT HOME.
YOU'RE HOME SICK IN YOUR HOME
ENVIRONMENT AND FEELING YOU
CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT.
OR ECO PARALYSIS, WHICH
BASICALLY MEANS YOU FEEL AS
THOUGH YOUR ACTIONS DON'T REALLY
PUT A DENT INTO THE CLIMATE
CHANGE PROBLEM.
SO REALLY TRYING TO GET TOWARDS
A STATE WHERE WE CAN HAVE
SOMETHING LIKE ACTIVE HOPE...
AGAIN, ANOTHER TERM THAT COULD
BE PUT INTO OUR DICTIONARY OF
TERMS TO DEAL WITH CLIMATE
CHANGE AND MENTAL HEALTH.

Steve says I'VE GOT ANOTHER
EXPRESSION FOR YOU.
YOU TELL ME WHETHER THIS ONE
NEEDS CHANGING.

Katie says SURE.

Steve says CARBON TAX.

Katie says HMM.

Steve says WHAT DO YOU THINK?

Katie says I LIKE THE TERM, AND I THINK
THAT THERE ARE... THAT FOR ME
WHAT IT SIGNIFIES IS THAT IT
SIGNIFIES ACTION, AND SO WHAT WE
NEED IS ACTION.
WE NEED TO PUT A PRICE ON
POLLUTION.
AND I THINK THAT THAT IS ONE OF
THE MOST IMPORTANT PIECES AND I
THINK... I WAS RECENTLY AT A
CONFERENCE WHERE THEY SAID,
INSTEAD OF TALKING ABOUT CARBON
TAX, LET'S TALK ABOUT PUTTING A
PRICE ON POLLUTION.
THAT'S SOMETHING I CAN VERY MUCH
GET BEHIND.

Steve says YOU LIKE THE
EXPRESSION CARBON TAX.
THE FEDERAL LEADER OF THE
OPPOSITION DOESN'T.
SIX PROVINCES OUT OF TEN DON'T.
OKAY, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
DOES.
I DON'T KNOW, MELANIE, YOU TELL
ME: DO THE PEOPLE WHO HOLD YOUR
POSITION NEED TO FIND TWO
DIFFERENT WORDS BESIDES CARBON
TAX TO PERHAPS GET PEOPLE ON
BOARD?
NO ONE LIKES TAXES.

Melanie says EXACTLY,
YEAH, NOBODY LIKES TAXES.
I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY PART OF
THE ISSUE.
I PARTICIPATED IN SOMETHING
CALLED THE CLIMATE CHANGE DESIGN
CHARRETTE LAST YEAR.
IN THE ARCHITECTURE SECTOR, IT'S
WHEN ARCHITECTS ARE ASKED TO PUT
TOGETHER DESIGNS FOR A NEW
BUILDING.
THIS WAS TALKING ABOUT CHANGING
THE CLIMATE CHANGE DIALOGUE,
CHANGING THE NARRATIVE.
PEOPLE BEING OVERWHELMED BY
IMAGES OF A POLAR BEAR, YOU
KNOW, ISOLATED, HUNGRY ON AN ICE
SHEET ALL BY ITSELF.
YOU FEEL EMPATHY, BUT WHAT
REALLY CAN YOU DO?
AND THEN WHAT SETS IN IS A
PARALYSIS, RIGHT?
BECAUSE OF THE FEAR.
I THINK MAYBE BRINGING TOGETHER
THE ARTISTS, LIKE CLIMATE CHANGE
THEATRE AND THE WILD SALMON
CARAVAN AND THINGS LIKE THAT,
THAT'S AN OPPORTUNITY FOR FOLKS
TO GET IN ON THE DISCUSSION, NOT
JUST ENVIRONMENTALISTS,
SCIENTISTS OR ECONOMISTS OR
POLITICIANS.
EVERYDAY PEOPLE NEED TO GET
INVOLVED IN THE CONVERSATION AND
START FIGURING OUT AND
CO-CREATING SOME NEW LANGUAGE
TOGETHER THAT RESONATES WITH
EVERYBODY, BECAUSE IT REALLY
AFFECTS ALL OF US.

The caption changes to "Producer: Gregg Thurlbeck, @GreggThurlbeck."

Steve says THERE ARE TWO WORDS
THAT WORK REGARDLESS OF WHAT
SIDE OF THE ISSUE YOU'RE ON, AND
THEY ARE THANK YOU.
THANK YOU TO KATIE HAYES AND
MELANIE GOODCHILD FOR COMING IN
TO TVO TONIGHT.

Melanie says THANK
YOU.
MIIGWETCH.

Steve says MIIGWETCH.

Watch: Mental Health and Climate Change