Transcript: The Psychological Cost of War Photography | Nov 08, 2018

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, checked purple tie, and a red poppy pin.

A caption on screen reads "The psychological cost of war. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says MOST OF US,
THANKFULLY, HAVE NEVER SEEN WAR
FIRSTHAND.
BUT WE HAVE A SENSE OF IT,
THANKS TO PHOTOGRAPHERS WHO RISK
THEIR OWN LIVES, BECOMING VISUAL
HISTORIANS OF SOME OF THE MOST
HORRENDOUS SIGHTS A PERSON CAN
WITNESS.
WHAT TOLL DOES SUCH A CAREER
TAKE?
AND WHY DO THEY DO IT?
ANTHONY FEINSTEIN IS A
PEABODY-WINNING DOCUMENTARY
FILMMAKER AND A PROFESSOR OF
PSYCHIATRY AT THE UNIVERSITY OF
TORONTO.
HE EXPLORES SUCH ISSUES IN HIS
NEW BOOK, "SHOOTING WAR: 18
PROFILES OF CONFLICT
PHOTOGRAPHERS," AND HE JOINS US
NOW FOR MORE.

Anthony is in his late fifties, clean-shaven, with receding gray hair. He's wearing round glasses, a gray suit, white shirt, and red poppy pin.
A picture of his book appears briefly on screen. The cover features a black and white picture of a young soldier with a shocked gaze.

Steve continues SO NICE TO MEET YOU.

Anthony says THANK YOU.

Steve says THIS BOOK IS JUST...
WELL, I DON'T HAVE TO TELL YOU.
IT IS SPECTACULAR.
A BEAUTIFUL WORK OF ART IN
ITSELF.
I WANT TO GET THE ANTHONY
FEINSTEIN STORY ON THE RECORD
FIRST BEFORE WE LOOK AT
PICTURES.
I WANT TO TAKE YOU BACK TO 1982.
YOU ARE SUB SCRIPTED INTO THE
SOUTH AFRICAN ARMY?

Anthony says DIRECT.

Steve says YOU ARE JUST OUT OF
MED SCHOOL.
YOU ARE SHIPPED OFF TO.
NAMIBIA.

The caption changes to "Anthony Feinstein. Author, 'Shooting war.'"
Then, it changes again to "Behind the lens."

Anthony says I WAS SENT THERE AS A DOCTOR.
FOR A PERIOD I WAS A COMBAT
MEDIC.
I SAW COMBAT.
I SAW HOW MAN REACTED TO BATTLE.
I SAW SOME REMARKABLE REACTIONS
ON THEIR PART, BOTH GOOD AND
BAD.
AND I HAVE NEVER FORGOTTEN IT.
IT WAS SUCH A DRAMATIC TIME.
I DID NOT WANT TO BE THERE.
I WAS AN UNWILLING CONSCRIPT.
I DID NOT SUPPORT THE CAUSE.
BUT IT WAS THE LAW OF THE LAND
AND THEY SHIPPED ME OFF AND I
HAD TO DO IT.
AND I HAVEN'T FORGOTTEN THE
MEN'S RESPONSES TO COMBAT WERE
SO DRAMATIC AT TIMES.
IT STAYED WITH ME.
AND I THINK IN PART IT'S ONE OF
THE REASONS WHY I'VE RETAINED AN
INTEREST IN WAR AND CONFLICT AND
NOW HOW IT RELATES TO JOURNALISM.

Steve says YOU HELPED PRODUCE A
DOCUMENTARY SEVEN YEARS AGO OR
SO ON WHAT IT'S LIKE FOR WAR
PHOTOGRAPHERS IN THE BATTLEFIELD.
IT'S CALLED "UNDER FIRE:
JOURNALISTS IN COMBAT."
IT FEATURES FINBAR O'REILLY, A
REUTERS JOURNALIST, WHO REACHED
OUT TO YOU FOR COUNSELLING.
WE'RE GOING TO SHOW A SNIPPET
AND THEN COME BACK AND CHAT.
IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE.

A clip plays on screen. In the clip, a young man carrying a rifle crouch-runs in an open field as he looks at the camera. Then, Anthony and the young man appear on split screens, each holding a phone. The young man sits in an office holding a mug.

Anthony says YOU MENTIONED THE AWFUL
BUSINESS IN AFGHANISTAN.
IS THAT GIVING YOU PAUSE FOR
REFLECTION AND CONCERN?

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Under Fire: Journalists in combat."

The man says IN SOME WAYS, YES.
AS I TOLD YOU, WHEN I CAME BACK,
I WAS WITH HIM A COUPLE OF DAYS
BEFORE HE STEPPED ON A LANDMINE
AND LOST HIS LEGS.

In a clip, the man sits in a military says I ARRIVED AT THE DISTRICT
CENTRE IN HELMAN PROVINCE.
IT WAS AT MY LAST VISIT.
HE WAS SHOT THROUGH THE CHEST
AND ONE SNIPER WHO WAS THERE
ALSO stepped on a landmine.

In a clip, he walks on a beach.

He narrates
FOR ME, YEAH, THERE WAS A
CERTAIN POINT AFTER A COUPLE OF
TIMES IN AFGHANISTAN WHERE I WAS
JUST FEELING UNMOTIVATED OR
WHAT'S THE POINT OF THIS?
WHY AM I DOING THIS?
AND YOU NOT ONLY FEEL
DISCONNECTED BUT YOU DON'T FEEL
LIKE THERE'S A PURPOSE TO WHAT
YOU'RE DOING.
PREVIOUS GENERATIONS DIDN'T EVEN
ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THIS WAS A
PROBLEM.
IT WAS A VERY MACHO BUSINESS.
IT STILL IS TO SOME DEGREE.
BUT THERE'S A GREATER
UNDERSTANDING NOW BY THE
INSTITUTIONS THAT THEY NEED TO
LOOK OUT FOR THEIR EMPLOYEES.

The clip ends.

Steve says DO YOU THINK THAT'S
TRUE, THAT LAST POINT, THAT NEWS
ORGANIZATIONS ARE MORE CONCERNED
ABOUT THEIR EMPLOYEES OUT IN THE FIELD?

The caption changes to "Anthony Feinstein. University of Toronto."

Anthony says VERY MUCH.
I THINK THEY RECOGNIZE IT AS A
MAJOR HEALTH CARE CONCERN.
THERE'S A MORAL DUTY ON THEIR
PART TO LOOK AFTER JOURNALISTS.
IF YOU'RE GOING TO SEND A
JOURNALIST INTO A WAR ZONE, AN
AREA OF CONFLICT, YOU HAVE A
MORAL RESPONSIBILITY TO LOOK
AFTER THAT PERSON, NOT ONLY
PHYSICALLY BUT EMOTIONALLY AND I
THINK THE GOOD NEWS
ORGANIZATIONS DO THAT NOW.

Steve says WHAT KIND OF COPING
SKILLS DO YOU GIVE THEM THAT
PRESUMABLY AT SOME POINT THEY
WILL NEED IN THEIR LIVES IN THE FIELD?

Anthony says ALL THE PHOTOGRAPHS I SPOKE
TO FOR THIS BOOK ARE VERY
EXPERIENCED PHOTOGRAPHS.
THEY'VE DONE IT FOR A LONG TIME.
THEY HAVE WORKED OUT WHAT NEEDS
TO BE DONE AND WHAT SHOULDN'T BE
DONE.
THAT SAID, I THINK THERE ARE
SOME GOOD COMMON-SENSE TIPS
ABOUT PSYCHOLOGICAL WELL-BEING
CAN GO A LONG WAY, HOW TO LOOK
AFTER YOURSELF EMOTIONALLY.
YOU CAN NEVER MAKE WAR SAFE.
THERE IS ALWAYS THIS ELEMENT OF
DANGER AND UNCERTAINTY.
HOW DO YOU NAVIGATE
SUCCESSFULLY?
THAT'S THE CHALLENGE.

Steve says 100 YEARS AFTER
WORLD WAR I, IS IT SAFER OR MORE
DANGEROUS TODAY TO BE A WAR
PHOTOGRAPHER?

Anthony says I THINK IT'S MORE DANGEROUS.
ONCE UPON A TIME JOURNALISTS
WERE LOOKED AT AS IMPARTIAL
OBSERVERS OF CONFLICT.
NOW IT'S NOT THE CASE.
JOURNALISTS ARE NOW IN THE
CROSSHAIRS OF INSURGENTS.

Steve says THEY ARE TARGETED.

Anthony says THEY ARE.
THEY ARE HIGH-PROFILE TARGETS AS
WELL, NOT JUST FOR KILLING BUT
ALSO FOR KIDNAP AND RANSOM AND,
YOU KNOW, YOU KIDNAP A
JOURNALIST OR YOU KIDNAP A
BIG-NAME JOURNALIST AND YOU GET
A LOT OF MEDIA ATTENTION.
I THINK IT'S MUCH MORE DANGEROUS
FOR JOURNALISTS NOW.

Steve says YOU HAVE 18 PROFILES
IN THIS BOOK AND THERE ARE
CLEARLY HUNDREDS, IF NOT
THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO DO THIS
AND DO THIS WELL IN THE WORLD.
HOW DO YOU MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT
WHICH 18 TO PROFILE?

The cover picture appears in close-up. Then, another black and white portrait shows a clean-shaven man in his fifties.

Anthony says WELL, THE GROUP OF WAR
PHOTOGRAPHS IS I THINK QUITE A
TIGHT, SMALL GROUP.
I'VE BEEN LOOKING AT JOURNALISTS
IN COMBAT ZONES FOR THE PAST,
YOU KNOW, 19 YEARS, AND OVER
THIS PERIOD I'VE BUILT UP
MEMORIES OF, YOU KNOW, GREAT
PHOTOGRAPHS THAT I'VE SEEN.
AND SO THIS BOOK IS BASED ON...
LET ME START WITH A PHOTOGRAPH,
LET ME PICK A PHOTOGRAPH THAT I
FIND RIVETING AND THEN GO IN
SEARCH OF THE PHOTOGRAPHER AND
WORK BACKWARDS.
FIND OUT ABOUT HIS LIFE.
WHAT DID HE DO TO GET THIS
PHOTOGRAPH?
HOW HAS HIS PROFESSION TREATED
HIM?
HOW HAS HE MANAGED THE
CHALLENGES OF WAR?
BUT IT ALL STARTED WITH ONE
PHOTOGRAPH.

Steve says WELL, I'M GOING TO
ASSUME THAT YOU FOUND THIS
PHOTOGRAPH REMARKABLY RIVETING
BECAUSE IT'S ON THE COVER OF THE
BOOK, AFTER ALL.

Anthony says YES.

Steve says THIS IS A
SHELL-SHOCKED MARINE FROM THE
TET OFFENSIVE IN THE VIETNAM WAR.
WHY IS THIS IMAGE CONSIDERED SO
ICONIC IN YOUR VIEW?

Anthony says IT'S A FAMOUS PHOTOGRAPH
TAKEN BY SIR DON McCULLEN.
HE'S IN HIS 80s NOW.
HE'S HAD AN UNPARALLELED CAREER
DOING WAR AND CONFLICT.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE IMAGE, THIS
IS IN THE AFTERMATH OF A VERY
INTENSE BATTLE, AND JUST BY
LOOKING AT THE MAN'S EXPRESSION,
YOU GET A SENSE OF WHAT HE'S
BEEN THROUGH.

Steve says THERE IS A VACANCY
IN THOSE EYES.

Anthony says THERE'S A VACANCY IN THOSE EYES.
IT'S QUITE HAUNTING.
I THINK IT SPEAKS VOLUMES.

Steve says WHAT MAKES
McCULLEN... I SHOULD CALL HIM
SIR DON McCULLEN SUCH A UNIQUE
WAR PHOTOGRAPHER, IN YOUR VIEW?

The caption changes to "Anthony Feinstein. Author, 'Shooting war.'"

Anthony says NUMBER ONE, HIS GREAT
ABILITY, HIS TREMENDOUS SKILL.
BUT THE OTHER THING WHICH IS
VERY UNUSUAL IS HIS AGE.
HE'S BEEN DOING IT FOR SUCH A
LONG TIME, HE'S BEEN DOING IT
FOR DECADES.
YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU LOOK AT
INDIVIDUALS OR JOURNALISTS THAT
GO INTO WAR ZONES, THEY DO IT
WHEN THEY'RE YOUNG FOR THE MOST
PART.
AND AS THEY START GETTING
TOWARDS MIDDLE AGE, ETC., THEY
START MOVING INTO SOMETHING
ELSE.
IT'S UNUSUAL TO SUSTAIN A CAREER
IN THE FRONT LINES OF CONFLICT
FOR SUCH A LONG TIME.

Steve says DOWN WHAT IT IS
ABOUT HIM?
HE WAS IN SYRIA AT THE AGE OF 77.
HE'S IN IRAQ AT THE AGE OF 79.
WHY DO THAT?

Anthony says WELL, YOU KNOW, I CAN SPEAK
FOR A LONG TIME ABOUT THE
BIOLOGY OF RISK AND WHY PEOPLE
DO THIS.
BUT CLEARLY YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE A
CERTAIN BIOLOGICAL TEMPERAMENT
THAT ALLOWS YOU TO DO THIS WORK
YEAR AFTER YEAR, DECADE AFTER
DECADE.
USUALLY WHAT HAPPENS YOU GET TO
YOUR 40s AND 50s AND YOUR
TRANSMITTERS THAT DRIVE RISKY
BEHAVIOUR START TO DECLINE.
AS WE AGE, THINGS CHANGE.
BUT FOR SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE
STATISTICAL OUTLIERS, THOSE
THINGS DON'T NECESSARILY CHANGE.
THEY HAVE THIS ABILITY TO
SUSTAIN THIS KIND OF INTENSE
ACTIVITY ASSOCIATED WITH
EXTRAORDINARY RISK WELL INTO
THEIR MIDDLE AND LATE LIFE, AND
HE'S DONE THAT AND REMAINED VERY
CREATIVE.

Steve says HE TOOK THIS PICTURE
OF THE SOLDIER IN VIETNAM... I
MEAN, IT'S A HALF A CENTURY AGO
ALREADY.

Anthony says YES.

Steve says WHAT IS HIS VIEW OF
THIS PICTURE TODAY?

Anthony says WELL, HE'S SLIGHTLY IRRITATED
BY IT BECAUSE HE SAYS IT'S
BECOME LIKE AN ART PHOTOGRAPH.
AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT
IRRITATES HIM.
SOMETHING THAT HE RECOGNIZES AS
A GREAT PHOTOGRAPH, BUT IN SOME
WAYS HE PUSHES BACK AGAINST THE
ICONIC STATUS OF IT.
HE SAYS PEOPLE BUY IT AS
DECORATION ALMOST, WHICH IS
SOMETHING THAT I THINK HE
RESENTS.
I THINK HE HAD NO NOTION AT THE
TIME, OF COURSE, WHEN HE TOOK
IT, THAT IT WOULD TURN OUT TO BE
SUCH A REMARKABLE PHOTOGRAPH.
I SUSPECT, HAVING MET HIM AND
INTERVIEWED, I THINK HE'S
SOMEWHAT AMBIVALENT ABOUT THIS
PARTICULAR PHOTOGRAPH.

Steve says IF I READ YOU RIGHT,
HIS CONCERN IS THAT IT IS NO
LONGER EVOKING THE KIND OF
HORROR THAT HE INTENDED AT THE
TIME.
IT'S BECOME MORE OF AN ART
PIECE, THAT KIND OF...

Anthony says FOR SOME PEOPLE.
THAT'S WHERE THE OBJECTION LIES,
YES.

Steve says DOES HE FEEL ANY
GUILT ABOUT THAT?

Anthony says WELL, HE FEELS A LOT OF GUILT
ABOUT HIS CAREER IN GENERAL.
HE SPEAKS ABOUT, YOU KNOW,
LIVING OFF THE SUFFERING OF
OTHERS.
I'VE BUILT THIS REMARKABLE
CAREER BASICALLY PHOTOGRAPHING
THE MISERY AND DISTRESS OF OTHER
PEOPLE.
I THINK THAT'S MISPLACED GUILT,
PERSONALLY.
BUT, YOU KNOW, I CAN'T TELL HIM
WHAT TO FEEL.

Steve says RIGHT.

Anthony says HE SPEAKS ABOUT THIS THEME
REPEATEDLY, THE GUILT THAT HE
FEELS AT HOW HE... HE'S ALMOST
PROFITING OFF THE SUFFERING OF
OTHER PEOPLE.

Steve says PROFITING.
BUT WE NEED PEOPLE TO CHRONICLE
THESE MOMENTS IN OUR HISTORY.

Anthony says EXACTLY.

Steve says SO HE'S AMBIVALENT
ABOUT THAT.

Anthony says AND I THINK HE'S A REMARKABLE CHRONICLER OF THAT.

Steve says INDEED HE IS.
I THINK THAT'S THE CASE FOR MANY
WHO CONTINUE TO GO BACK AND
CONTINUE TO GO BACK... LOOK IT,
YOU'RE THE PSYCHIATRIST, SO YOU
TELL ME.
I'LL PLAY AMATEUR PSYCHIATRIST.
IS THERE KIND OF SOME OBSESSION
OR SOME ADDICTION TO THE RUSH
YOU GET WHEN YOU'RE IN THE FIELD
AND YOU'RE TAKING YOUR OWN LIFE
INTO YOUR HANDS TRYING TO BE THE
CHRONICLER OF THE WORLD?

Anthony says I DO HESITATE TO USE THE
WORDS ADDICTION, ALTHOUGH I KNOW
WHERE YOU'RE COMING FROM.
ADDICTION KIND OF PATHOLOGIZES
SOMETHING.
I DON'T SEE THIS AS PATHOLOGY AT
ALL.
THE DRAMA AND THE EXCITEMENT AND
THE MAGNITUDE OF THESE EVENTS
CAN BE SO COMPELLING THAT THEY
KEEP ON SUCKING YOU BACK IN.
SO YOU'RE KIND OF WITNESSING
EXTRAORDINARY EVENTS AND THEY
SPEAK ABOUT THIS ALL THE TIME,
HAVING AN ARMCHAIR AS HISTORY
UNFOLDS IN FRONT OF YOU, THERE'S
CERTAINLY A VERY COMPELLING
REASON TO RETURN.
BUT I DO THINK YOU'VE GOT TO
HAVE A CERTAIN BIOLOGY THAT
ALLOWS YOU TO DO THIS.

Steve says INDEED.
LET US... I WANT TO CYCLE
THROUGH SOME PICTURES NOW SO
PEOPLE GET A SENSE OF WHAT'S IN
THE BOOK HERE.
THIS FIRST ONE HERE, THIS IS BY
TIM HEATHERINGTON.

A colour picture shows a young soldier leaning against a trench wall as he holds a palm against his face and his helmet in his other hand.

Steve continues TIM HEATHERINGTON, HE WAS KILLED
AT THE AGE OF 40 WHILE COVERING
THE LIBYAN WAR, AND THIS IS ONE
OF HIS MOST POWERFUL
PHOTOGRAPHS.
IT WAS FOUR YEARS BEFORE HIS
DEATH.
THIS WAS AN AMERICAN SOLDIER IN
AFGHANISTAN.
WHAT DID STUDYING HIS LIFE TEACH
YOU ABOUT THE HUMAN CONDITION?

Anthony says WELL, NUMBER ONE, HE'S A REMARKABLE PHOTOGRAPHER.
HE DIDN'T REGARD HIMSELF AS A
WAR PHOTOGRAPHER.
HE SAW HIMSELF AS A STORYTELLER.

Steve says THAT'S HIM THERE.

A picture shows the young Tim, with short brown hair and a mustache.

Anthony says HE WANTED TO TELL PEOPLES'
STORIES, WHICH I THINK HE DID
VERY EFFECTIVELY WITH
PHOTOGRAPHS AND WITH TEXT.
OBVIOUSLY THE ENDING HERE IS A
VERY TRAGIC ONE.
HE HAD HAD A LOT OF COMBAT
EXPERIENCE WITH ANOTHER
JOURNALIST, SEBASTIAN JUNGER.
AFTER THEIR TIME IN AFGHANISTAN,
THEY HAD SPOKEN ABOUT NOT GOING
BACK INTO CONFLICT ZONES, AND
YET HEATHERINGTON WENT BACK TO
LIBYA.
YOU HAVE THIS PULL OF WAR.
IT'S ALMOST LIKE THE SIREN CALL
OF CONFLICT THAT JUST ENTICES
PEOPLE BACK IN.
I WAS TOLD THAT WHEN HE WENT TO
LIBYA, HE DID NOT WANT TO FILM
CONFLICT BUT HE WANTED TO DO A
SERIES OF PORTRAITS.
ONCE THERE, HE KIND OF GOT
SUCKED INTO THE VORTEX.

Steve says HOW DID HE DIE?

Anthony says WELL, I THINK, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS A MORTAR ATTACK AND
SHRAPNEL BASICALLY PERFORATED
THE FEMORAL ARTERY IN HIS LEG
AND HE BLED TO DEATH.

Steve says HE BLED OUT.

Anthony says WITH GOOD HEALTH CARE OR GOOD
MEDICAL CARE AT THE SCENE,
PERHAPS HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN
SAVED.

Steve says MIGHT HAVE SAVED
HIM.
THIS NEXT PICTURE WE'RE GOING TO
SHOW IS, WELL, I REMEMBER THIS
ONE VERY, VERY WELL.
THIS IS OKLAHOMA CITY, THE
BOMBING, THE TERRORIST BOMBING.
CHUCK PORTER, AMATEUR
PHOTOGRAPHER, HE WON A PULITZER
PRIZE FOR THIS PICTURE.
THIS WAS THE BOMBING THAT TOOK PLACE.

In a colour picture, a firefighter carries a baby in his arms. The baby's face is covered in blood.

Steve continues BILL CLINTON WAS PRESIDENT AT
THE TIME OF THE UNITED STATES.
HOW DID THIS PICTURE CHANGE
CHUCK PORTER'S LIFE?

A picture shows Chuck holding a newspaper with the headline "Bombing Terror." He's in his twenties, with short auburn hair.

The caption changes to "Anthony Feinstein, @antfeinstein."

Anthony says IT WAS A FASCINATING STORY.
CHUCK PORTER WAS A BANKER.
HE WAS SITTING IN A BANK WHEN HE
HEARD A TREMENDOUS BOOM.
HE THOUGHT THIS IS a GAS EXPLOSION.
HE SAW BITS OF PAPER FLOATING DOWN.
HE THOUGHT THIS WAS UNUSUAL.
HE WAS AN AMATEUR PHOTOGRAPHER
THAT ALWAYS KEPT HIS CAMERA WITH
HIM.
SO HE RAN OUT OF HIS BANK AND IT
TURNED OUT THAT HE WAS ALMOST
THE FIRST ON THE SCENE OF THIS
GHASTLY TERRORIST ATTACK IN
WHICH THIS FEDERAL BUILDING HAD
BASICALLY BEEN DESTROYED, LIKE
SOMEONE HAD TAKEN AN ICE CREAM
SCOOP AND JUST REMOVED THE FRONT
OF THE BUILDING AND HE WAS THERE
WITH HIS CAMERA WELL BEFORE
FIRST RESPONDERS, WELL BEFORE
ANY OTHER JOURNALISTS, AND HE
STARTED TO TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS.
AND HE BASICALLY CIRCLED THE
BUILDING, PHOTOGRAPHING AND
PHOTOGRAPHING, GETTING A
REMARKABLE SERIES OF IMAGES.
THIS WAS NOT IN THE DIGITAL
PHOTOGRAPH ERA.
LATER THAT DAY HE WENT OFF TO
WAL-MART AND HANDED HIM THIS
FILM AND SAID DEVELOP IT.
HE HAD NO NOTION REALLY OF WHAT
HE HAD PHOTOGRAPHED.
AND THEN SOMEONE SAID, YOU HAVE
SOME INCREDIBLE PHOTOGRAPHS
HERE.
ON THE WAY HOME HE DROPPED THEM
OFF AT I THINK IT WAS ASSOCIATED
PRESS, ONE OF THESE NEWS
OUTLETS, AND HE HAD THIS ICONIC
PHOTOGRAPH OF THIS TERRORIST
ATTACK.

The caption changes to "Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live."

Steve says NOW, THAT PHOTO
OBVIOUSLY CHANGED HIS LIFE IN
MANY REGARDS.
BUT HE SEEMS, FROM WHAT I'VE
HEARD, HE SEEMS TO HAVE A KIND
OF, YOU KNOW, REINTEGRATED
HIMSELF, IF THAT'S THE WORD,
BACK INTO SORT OF NORMAL LIFE.

The caption changes to "Not like the rest."

Anthony says YES.

Steve says HOW WELL DOES THAT
GO FOR THE MAJORITY OF THEM WHO
DECIDE TO GET OUT BEFORE THEY
GET INJURED OR, GOD FORBID,
KILLED, AND THEY TRY TO LEAVE
THAT BEHIND AND PICK UP A MORE
NORMAL LIFE.

Anthony says I THINK IT WOULD BE A
CHALLENGE TO REINTEGRATE BACK
INTO CIVIL SOCIETY.
YOU LEAVE BEHIND THE DRAMA OF IT
AND GET BACK TO LIFE WHICH TO
BEGIN WITH CAN SEEM QUITE
MUNDANE, WORRYING ABOUT PAYING
BILLS AND THE TRAFFIC AND THE
WASHING MACHINE BREAKING DOWN
AND THE CAR NEEDING SERVICE.
THESE KINDS OF THINGS ARE
CONSIDERED VERY MUNDANE AND
PERHAPS QUITE IRRITATING.
BUT IT'S OBVIOUSLY ESSENTIAL
THAT YOU MAKE A GOOD TRANSITION
BACK TO YOUR LIFE BACK HOME.
YOU HAVE YOUR PARTNER, YOU HAVE
YOUR FAMILY.
IF YOU CAN'T MAKE THAT
TRANSITION, LIFE CAN BE VERY
DIFFICULT FOR YOU.

Steve says LET'S BRING UP THE
NEXT PICTURE HERE.
THIS IS FROM HAITI.
A WOMAN IN HEELS WALKING THROUGH
THE RUBBLE, HOLDING THE HAND OF HER PARTNER.

In said picture, the couple walks on a pile of rubble, surrounded by flaming buildings and smoke.

Steve continues THIS WAS TAKEN BY CAROL GUZHI.
WHAT'S THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THIS
PICTURE FOR YOU?

Anthony says NUMBER ONE, CAROL IS A
REMARKABLE PHOTOGRAPHER.
SHE HAS WON FOUR PULITZER
PRIZES, WHICH SAYS A LOT ABOUT HER.

A colour portrait of Carol appears in which she wears a slight smile as she clasps her hands.

Anthony continues IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT THE
PULITZERS, IT'S ABOUT HER AS A
PERSON AND THE KIND OF
PHOTOGRAPHS SHE TAKES.
SHE'S A VERY EMPATHETIC PERSON.
SHE TRAINED AS A NURSE BEFORE
SHE BECAME A PHOTOGRAPHER.
HER PHOTOS ARE IMBUED WITH A LOT
OF SYMPATHY.
GETTING A FEEL OF HER SUBJECTS
AND THE TOPIC.
AND THERE'S A GREAT HUMANITY TO
HER WORK.
SHE CAPTURES THE PAIN AND THE
SUFFERING AND THE RESILIENCE OF
HER SUBJECTS IN A REMARKABLE
WAY.
SHE BRINGS A GREAT SENSITIVITY
TO WHAT SHE DOES.
SHE SAID TO ME THAT ONE OF THE
DOWNSIDES OF HAVING ALL THIS
EMPATHY IS THAT YOU PERSONALLY,
AND SHE HERSELF, CAN FEEL A LOT
OF THIS PAIN.
IT CAN BE VERY EMOTIONALLY
CHALLENGING FOR HER TO WORK IN
THIS ENVIRONMENT.

The caption changes to "Empathy: A blessing and a curse."

Steve says SHE GOT PTSD, DID
SHE NOT?

Anthony says SHE DID.
AND SHE SPEAKS QUITE OPENLY
ABOUT THIS.

Steve says WHAT'S THE
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PTSD AND
MORAL INJURY?

Anthony says PTSD IS A MENTAL ILLNESS, AND
YOU DEVELOP THAT IN RESPONSE TO
CONFRONTING AN OVERWHELMING
STRESSOR, A LIFE-THREATENING
EVENT.
THEN YOU HAVE PARTICULAR KINDS
OF SYMPTOMS THAT ARE VERY
CLEARLY DEFINED.
YOU'RE EXPERIENCING SYMPTOMS,
DREAMS, NIGHTMARES, FLASHBACKS,
THE AVOIDANCE SYMPTOMS, WANTING
TO STAY AWAY FROM RECOLLECTIONS,
TRYING TO PUSH AWAY MEMORIES OF
TRAUMA.
THE HYPERAROUSAL, YOU COME BACK
TO A SAFE CITY LIKE TORONTO BUT
YOU FEEL UNDER THREAT.
YOU'RE SCANNING YOUR ENVIRONMENT
BECAUSE YOU DON'T FEEL SAFE.
IRRITABILITY, YOU CAN'T FALL
ASLEEP AT NIGHT, ETC.
THAT'S A MENTAL ILLNESS.
MORAL INJURY IS NOT A MENTAL
ILLNESS.
SOMEHOW YOU'VE LOST YOURSELF
MORALLY.
IT'S ASSOCIATED WITH STRONG
FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME IN
PARTICULAR.
IT MIGHT BE THE GATEWAY DOWN THE
ROAD TO PTSD, BUT BY ITSELF IS
NOT A MENTAL ILLNESS.

Steve says I SEE.
WOULD THE RATES OF... HOW DO THE
RATES OF PTSD, IN THIS
PARTICULAR COHORT, COMPARE TO
THE GENERAL POPULATION?

Anthony says IF YOU GO AND TAKE A SNAPSHOT
OF JOURNALISM AT ANY ONE POINT
IN TIME, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO
FIND A PROFESSION THAT'S FULL OF
PTSD.
YOU DON'T.
BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE
CUMULATIVE EFFECT... I MEAN,
THESE ARE INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE
GONE BACK TO WAR FOR TWO, THREE,
FOUR DECADES, AND OVER THE LIFE
SPAN OF THIS CAREER, THAT'S WHEN
YOU START SEEING THE RATES OF
PTSD GOING UP RELATIVE TO THE
GENERAL POPULATION.

Steve says HOW ABOUT ANXIETY OR
DEPRESSION?

Anthony says LIKEWISE.
WHEN YOU'RE PUTTING YOURSELF
INTO THESE REALLY DIFFICULT
ENVIRONMENTS THAT CAN
POTENTIALLY HAVE PSYCHOLOGICAL
CONSEQUENCES, THAT SAID, THIS IS
A VERY RESILIENT GROUP OF
PEOPLE.

Steve says WE'VE GOT A COUPLE
MINUTES LEFT WHICH IS ENOUGH
TIME I THINK TO SHOW ONE MORE
PICTURE.
THIS HOLDS SPECIAL SIGNIFICANCE
TO YOU, THIS PICTURE, BECAUSE I
THINK, I'M TOLD, THIS ONE HANGS
IN YOUR OFFICE.

In a colour picture, three women stand in the foreground as a house blazer in the background. One woman looks into the distance. The second woman looks at the third, who laughs as she smells red flowers.

Anthony says IT DOES.

Steve says WHY THIS PICTURE?

Anthony says WELL, IT'S TAKEN BY THIS REMARKABLE PHOTOGRAPHER
ALEXANDRA BULLARD.
SHE IS NO LONGER ALIVE.
SHE DIDN'T...

Steve says AN ANEURYSM.

A picture shows Alexandra, in her thirties, with short dark hair.

Anthony says SHE HAD AN ANEURYSM IN THE WEST BANK. IN
YOU SEE THESE TWO YOUNG WOMEN,
THEY'RE SMILING, THEY'RE HOLDING
A FLOWER.
YOU KNOW... A HAPPY PHOTOGRAPH.
YOU FOCUS ON THE BACKGROUND AND
YOU SEE HOMES BURNING.
AND THE HOMES BURNING REFLECT
THE ETHNIC CLEANSING OF CIVIL
WAR.
SO THEY ARE KOSOVAR ALBANIANS,
THE CONFLICT WITH THE SERBS.
THIS IS ETHNIC CLEANSING WHICH
HAS RETURNED TO EUROPE 40, 50
YEARS AFTER THE SECOND WORLD
WAR.
WHO THOUGHT IT WOULD COME BACK,
THAT KIND OF BEHAVIOUR?
IT HAS COME BACK.
AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, THE
SUBTLETIES OF THIS PHOTOGRAPH,
YOU SEE THE UTTER MISERY OF
CIVIL WAR.
BUILDINGS ARE DESTROYED, PEOPLE
LOSE THEIR HOMES.
IT'S SERBS, THE KOSOVAR
ALBANIANS, IT GOES BACK AND
FORTH.
DEEP ETHNIC HATRED WHICH REALLY
HASN'T LIFTED.
I THINK THIS PICTURE CAPTURES IT
WITH GREAT SUBTLETY.

The caption changes to "Producer: Patricia Kozicka, @TrishKozicka."

Steve holds up a copy of the book and says INDEED.
I CAN'T THANK YOU ENOUGH FOR
COMING IN AND SHARING YOUR
THOUGHTS AND PICTURES WITH US.
"SHOOTING WAR: 18 PROFILES OF C."
THAT'S IT RIGHT THERE, WITH THAT
ICONIC PICTURE THAT THE
PHOTOGRAPHER IS SO AMBIVALENT
ABOUT BUT WHICH CAPTURES... BOY,
DOES THAT NOT CAPTURE THE
BATTLEFIELD THERE IN SO MANY WAYS.
ANTHONY FEINSTEIN, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

Anthony says THANK YOU.

Watch: The Psychological Cost of War Photography