Transcript: Get Off That Platform! | Nov 05, 2018

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, spotted gray tie, and a red poppy pin.

A caption on screen reads "Get off that platform! @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says IT'S NOT JUST A HOT
TOPIC RIGHT NOW, IT'S BEEN ONE
FOR, WELL, CENTURIES, MILLENNIA
EVEN.
TODAY IT'S OFTEN CALLED
DE-PLATFORMING - TO LITERALLY
BOYCOTT OR SHUT DOWN ACCESS TO
THE PLATFORM FROM WHICH
OBJECTIONABLE VIEWS CAN BE
ESPOUSED - AND IT RAISES ONCE
AGAIN SOME OF THE FUNDAMENTAL
QUESTIONS ABOUT FREE SPEECH AND
HATE SPEECH.
HERE TO CONSIDER THE ISSUE
AFRESH:
IN LONDON, U.K.:
WRITER AND ACTIVIST
JULIE BINDEL, CO-FOUNDER OF THE
FEMINIST ADVOCACY ORGANIZATION,
JUSTICE FOR WOMEN.

Julie is in her forties, with short curly gray hair. She's wearing a gray shirt and undershirt.

Steve continues AND HERE IN OUR STUDIO:
MATTHEW SEARS, ASSOCIATE
PROFESSOR OF CLASSICS AND
ANCIENT HISTORY AT THE
UNIVERSITY OF NEW BRUNSWICK...

Matthew is in his late thirties, clean-shaven, with short blond hair. He's wearing glasses, a red blazer over a blue shirt, and a navy blue tie.

Steve continues JONATHAN KAY, SENIOR EDITOR AT
THE ONLINE PLATFORM
Quillette.com, AND CO-HOST OF
THE PODCAST "WRONGSPEAK."

Jonathan is in his fifties, clean-shaven, with short gray hair. He's wearing glasses, a gray suit, blue shirt, and a red poppy pin.

Steve continues AND ANDRAY DOMISE, CONTRIBUTING
EDITOR AT MACLEAN'S AND CO-HOST
OF THE PODCAST, "BLACK TEA."

Andray is in his forties, shaven-headed, with a boxed beard. He's wearing glasses, a gray jacket and a striped purple shirt.

Steve continues WE ARE DELIGHTED TO WELCOME ALL
OF YOU HERE IN OUR STUDIO.
JULIE, GOOD OF YOU TO BE ON THE
LINE FROM THE U.K. FOR US.
AND WE ARE GOING TO... I MEAN,
OBVIOUSLY WE'RE HAVING THIS
CONVERSATION BECAUSE OF THE
DEBATE THAT TOOK PLACE IN
TORONTO ON FRIDAY.
STEVE BANNON, DAVID FRUM FACING
OFF AT THE MUNK DEBATE AT ROY
THOMPSON HALL IN DOWNTOWN
TORONTO.
MANY WANTED BANNON TO BE ,
DISINVITED INCLUDING THIS MEMBEROF
PARLIAMENT NAMED CHARLIE ANGUS,
WHO SAID...

A tweet by Charlie Angus appears on screen. It reads "If you think Munk should disinvite Bannon, you can sign this petition or make calls. The humanity of minority groups is not for debate. The far right has always exploited platforms like this as a megaphone for their hate."

Steve says PROTESTERS SHOUTED
AT DEBATE GO-ERS AS THEY WALKED
IN, THERE'S SOME VIDEO OF THAT.

A clip plays in which protesters chant and throw clenched fists in the air as they hold up signs.

Steve continues THERE WAS QUITE A GAUNTLET TO BE
RUN BY WHAT WE'RE TOLD IS 1500
PROTESTERS WHO SHOWED UP.
THERE WAS SIGNIFICANT SECURITY.
THE EVENT STARTED AN HOUR LATE
BECAUSE IT TOOK SO MUCH TIME TO
LOAD THE HALL.
JULIE BINDEL, SHOULD STEVE
BANNON HAVE BEEN DISINVITED
HAVING BEEN INVITED IN THE FIRST
PLACE?

The caption changes to "Julie Bindel. Justice for Women."
Then, it changes again to "Banning Bannon."

Julie says NO, I DON'T
BELIEVE IN DISINVITING PEOPLE,
UNLESS WE LEARN SOMETHING NEW
ABOUT THEM THAT COULD CONSTITUTE
A GENUINE FEAR THAT A CRIME
COULD BE INCITED, WHICH IS, I
THINK, A LAW THAT IS PERFECTLY
REASONABLE IN STAMPING OUT THE
KIND OF DANGEROUS SPEECH AS
OPPOSED TO OFFENSIVE SPEECH.

Steve says IN THIS CASE WE HAVE
LEARNED, IN YOUR VIEW, NOTHING
NEW ABOUT HIM, AND IN THAT CASE
IT WAS STILL OKAY FOR HIM TO
HAVE BEEN THERE; IS THAT RIGHT?

Julie says I THINK THEY SHOULD HAVE
ASSESSED PROPERLY WHETHER OR NOT
HE WAS GOING TO CONTRIBUTE TO
ANY DEBATE OR DISCUSSION BECAUSE
OF HIS VIEWS AND BECAUSE OF WHAT
HE COULD BRING TO THE TABLE.
PEOPLE DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO
BE... NOT TO BE OFFENDED, AND SO
I THINK THAT DISINVITING PEOPLE
IS HYPOCRITICAL AND COWARDLY.

Steve says ANDRAY, SHOULD HE
HAVE BEEN DISINVITED HAVING BEEN
INVITED IN THE FIRST PLACE?

The caption changes to "Andray Domise. MacLean's."

Andray says I DON'T
UNDERSTAND HOW HE WOULD HAVE
BEEN DISINVITED WHEN THIS IS THE
KIND OF CHARACTER THAT SHOWS UP
ON THE MUNK DEBATE ALL THE TIME.
YOU HAVE STEVEN PINKER, ANDREW
SULLIVAN, WHO KEEPS ADVOCATING
THE LINK BETWEEN IQ AND RACE,
YOU HAVE NIGEL FARGE, AND
BASICALLY WRECKED THE DECOR RUM
OF CONGRESS.
WHY NOT HAVE STEVE BANNON?

Steve says I'M NOT SURE HOW
STEVEN PINKER FITS IN WITH THE
REST OF THEM.
LET ME KNOW THE EGREGIOUS THING
HE SAID.

Andray says YOU NEVER
SEE SOMEBODY FROM THE OTHER SIDE
OF THAT CONVERSATION UP ON THAT
STAGE.
FOR EXAMPLE, YOU'LL NEVER HAVE A
TROTSKYITE GET ON STAGE AT THE
MUNK DEBATES...

Steve says WE'RE GOING DOWN A
DIFFERENT HOLE.

Andray says I'M JUST SAYING, THERE'S A MAINSTREAMING OF LIBERAL AND FAR
RIGHT VIEWS THAT SHOW UP THERE
AND YOU DON'T HAVE PEOPLE
ARGUING THE OTHER POINTS OF
VIEW.
OF COURSE THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE
STEVE BANNON THERE.

Steve says YOU SAY HE'S
CONSISTENT WITH WHAT THEY
TRADITIONALLY HAVE.
HAVING BEEN INVITED, SHOULD HE
HAVE BEEN DISINVITED REGARDING
THE NOTORIETY AROUND HIM?

Andray says IT WOULD BE RIDICULOUS
BECAUSE OF THE OTHERS THEY'VE
HAD ON STAGE.

The caption changes to "Jonathan Kay. Quillette Magazine."

Jonathan says I'M GLAD THAT BANNON, WHO I
DISAGREE WITH ON PRETTY MUCH
EVERYTHING, WAS NOT DISINVITED.
BY THE SAME TOKEN, I THINK IT'S
IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE THAT THE
PROTESTERS THERE WERE ALSO NOT
DEPLATFORMED.
I WENT TO THE DEBATE.
I ENJOYED IT.
I LEARNED A LOT ABOUT VIEWS THAT
I DISAGREE WITH.
BUT THERE WERE SOME PEOPLE IN
LINE WITH ME WHO WERE BEING
HECTORED AND THERE WERE SOME
PEOPLE SCREAMING OBSCENITIES AT
US FROM A FEW FEET AWAY.

Steve says WHAT DID THEY SAY?

Jonathan says F-BOMBS AND THE USUAL STUFF.
IT WASN'T ANYTHING ANYONE WHO
HAS BEEN IN THE SCHOOL YARD
HASN'T HEARD, ACCUSING US OF
BEING NAZIS AND THAT SORT OF
THING.
IT WAS COMPLETELY OVER THE TOP
BUT THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO
THAT.
THERE WERE PEOPLE IN LINE SAYING
ALL OF THESE PEOPLE SHOULD BE
ARRESTED, THEY'RE SHUTTING DOWN
SIMCOE STREET IN DOWNTOWN
TORONTO, CREATING TRAFFIC JAMS,
MANY OF US HAPPENED TO BE JEWISH
AND IT WAS WEIRD BEING ACCUSED
OF BEING NAZIS.
I DISAGREE WITH THAT.
JUST AS I WOULDN'T WANT TO
DEPLATFORM BANNON, I WOULDN'T
WANT TO DEPLATFORM THE
PROTESTERS.
EARLIER ON, SOME HAD BEEN
VIOLATED.
BUT WHEN I WAS THERE THEY DID
NOT PHYSICALLY ASSAULT US.
THEY SHOULD BE FREE TO SAY
ANYTHING THEY WANT, JUST AS MUNK
SHOULD HAVE ANYBODY THEY WANT.

Steve says VERBAL ASSAULTS ARE OKAY.

Jonathan says AS JULIE BINDEL SAID, THERE
IS NO RIGHT IN OUR SOCIETY NOT
TO BE OFFENDED AND I ABHOR
PEOPLE WHO MEDICALIZE
DISAGREEMENT.
ONE OF THESE THINGS... YOU SAW
THIS FROM CHARLIE ANGUS...
THEY'RE DENYING OUR HUMANITY AND
I FELT TRAUMATIZED AND, YOU
KNOW, YOU HEAR THESE STUDENTS
WHO EVERY TIME JORDAN PETERSON
GOES TO A CAMPUS, THEY SAY I
COULDN'T ATTEND MY CLASS I'M SO
TRAUMATIZED.
GROW UP!
YOU LIVE IN A SOCIETY THAT THERE
ARE GOING TO BE PEOPLE WHO
DISAGREE WITH YOU.
SOMEONE WHO HAS DIFFERENT VIEWS
FROM YOU DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE
TRYING TO EXTINGUISH YOUR
HUMANITY.
THEY HAVE A DIFFERENT POINT OF
VIEW.
IF YOU DON'T WANT TO ATTEND,
DON'T ATTEND.
BE AN ADULT.

The caption changes to "Matthew Sears. University of New Brunswick."

Matthew says I THINK THE MUNK DEBATES HAVE
EVERY RIGHT TO INVITE WHOMEVER
THEY WANT TO THEIR PLATFORM.
I AGREE WITH ANDRAY THAT STEVE
BANNON ISN'T AS FAR AFIELD AS
ONE MIGHT THINK IN TERMS OF WHO
COMES TO THE MUNK DEBATES.
I ALSO THINK THAT PEOPLE LIKE
CHARLIE ANGUS HAVE EVERY RIGHT
TO CALL FOR THEM TO BE
DISINVITED.
SO THIS ISN'T... IT'S NOT AN
ISSUE FOR ME OF CENSORSHIP OR
FREE SPEECH.
IF THE MUNK PEOPLE FOUND TOO
MANY WOULD PEOPLE WOULD BE
UPSET, THAT WOULD BE SOMETHING
THEY ARE FREE TO DO.
SO I DON'T THINK HE SHOULD HAVE
BEEN INVITED IN THE FIRST PLACE.
BUT I THINK WHETHER OR NOT HE
SHOULD HAVE BEEN... I DON'T KNOW
THAT IT'S NECESSARILY COWARDICE
MORE THAN RESOUNDING TO REAL
CONCERNS, BUT I THINK THE MUNK
FOUNDATION AND THE PROTESTERS...
I'M GLAD JON BROUGHT THAT UP,
THEY HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO
PROTEST, THE MUNK DEBATE HAS
EVERY RIGHT TO BRING WHOEVER
THEY WANT OR A RIGHT TO
DISINVITE.
THEY MIGHT HAVE LEARNED NEW
INFORMATION ABOUT THE AUDIENCE
OR LEARNED NEW INFORMATION ABOUT
THE POLITICAL CLIMATE INTO WHICH
BANNON WAS COMING.

Steve says HOLD THAT THOUGHT RIGHT THERE.
I GUESS ONE OF THE REASONS SOME
PEOPLE LOOKED TO HAVE BANNON
DISINVITED IS BECAUSE IT JUST
HAPPENED, RIGHT, IN SEPTEMBER
BANNON WAS SCHEDULED TO BE
INTERVIEWED AT THE NEW YORK
FESTIVAL OF IDEAS, AND HE WAS
LATER DISINVITED WHEN A LOT OF
PEOPLE MADE A STINK ABOUT THAT,
AND HERE'S WHAT... I MEAN, WE
HAVE REACTION HERE TO THAT.
MALCOLM GLADWELL TWEETED...

A tweet by Malcom Gladwell pops up that reads "Huh. Call me old-fashioned. But I would have thought that the point of a festival of ideas was to expose the audience to ideas. If you only invite your friends over, it's called a dinner party."

Steve continues WE'VE GOT ONE MORE HERE.

Another tweet by Gladwell reads "Joe McCarthy was done in when he was confronted by someone with intelligence and guts, before a live audience. Sometimes a platform is actually gallows."

Steve continues JULIE, LET ME GO BACK TO YOU ON THIS.
I HEARD LOTS OF PEOPLE AT THE
MUNK DEBATE SAY THEY WERE
ATTENDING BECAUSE ESSENTIALLY
THEY WANTED TO SEE BANNON GET
HIS COMEUPPANCE FROM THE LOCAL
BOY, RIGHT?
DAVID FRUM IS FROM TORONTO.
SMART GUY.
THEY WANTED TO SEE FRUM SCHOOL
BANNON.
WOULD THAT HAVE... I'M NOT GOING
TO SAY WHETHER IT DID OR DIDN'T
HAPPEN, BUT WOULD THAT HAVE BEEN
A PREFERRED CONCLUSION TO
DISINVITING HIM?

Julie says AS FAR AS I'M
CONCERNED, YOU KNOW, I'M A
PERSON ON THE LEFT, I FIND
BANNON'S POLITICAL VIEWS ABHORRENT.
YES, OF COURSE IT WOULD.
I DON'T BELIEVE IN... YOU KNOW,
A FREE AND OPEN PLATFORM FOR
EVERYONE IN ALL CIRCUMSTANCES.
I THINK IT'S PERFECTLY FINE NOT
TO INVITE SOMEBODY BECAUSE YOU
FEEL THAT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO
BE CHALLENGEABLE.
BUT I THINK ONCE YOU HAVE
INVITED SOMEONE, TO BE BULLIED
OUT OF THAT BY THOSE WHO ARE
VIRTUE-SIGNALING, SUCH AS THOSE
THAT DROP OUT OF EVENTS AND SAY
"I WON'T SHARE A PLATFORM WITH
HIM.
IF YOU CONTINUE WITH YOUR
INVITATION, THEN I WILL DROP
OUT."
AND THEN OF COURSE OTHERS FOLLOW
SUIT.
BECAUSE IF PEOPLE ARE COLOUR ARE
THOSE SAYING IT, THEN OF COURSE
THE WHITE PEOPLE ABOUT TO JOIN
HIM ON STAGE WOULD BE RACIST.
IT GOES TO LOGIC IF THEY DON'T
DROP OUT.
I DO THINK IT'S COWARDICE.
AND I THINK NOW THE BULLIES HAVE
SEEN THAT THEY CAN BE EXTREMELY
EFFECTIVE BY THREATENING TO
DISRUPT AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN
THE ORGANIZERS ARE SAYING, THEY
CAN'T GUARANTEE PEOPLE'S SAFETY,
SO IT LOOKS AS THOUGH THEY'RE
JUST BEING CONCERNED ABOUT THE
SAFETY OF THE AUDIENCE RATHER
THAN THEY DON'T WANT ANY MORE
GRIEF.

Steve says MATTHEW WANTS IN.

The caption changes to "Matthew Sears, @matthewasears."

Matthew says YOU FRAME IT
LIKE BULLYING.
I SEE IT AS EXERCISING THEIR
FREE SPEECH TO TAKE EXCEPTION TO
THIS.
I DON'T THINK IT'S COWARDICE IF
I WAS INVITED TO SPEAK AT AN
EVENT AND SOMEONE LIKE STEVE
BANNON WAS ALSO INVITED.
I WOULD DROP OUT.
I'D SAY I ACTUALLY DON'T THINK
THIS IS THE KIND OF PLATFORM I
WANT TO SHARE WITH SOMEONE LIKE
STEVE BANNON.
AND IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
BULLYING.
IT STRIKES ME AS A LITTLE BIT
RICH TO WORRY THAT STEVE BANNON
IS BEING BULLIED.
AND...

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Julie says THAT'S NOT
WHAT I WAS SAYING.
WITH RESPECT, THAT ISN'T WHAT I
WAS SAYING.
I WAS TALKING ABOUT ORGANIZERS
OF EVENTS BEING BULLIED.
I DIDN'T SAY, I DO NOT CARE WHO
TELLS BANNON THAT HE'S A SCUM
BAG AND THAT HIS VIEWS ARE
ABHORRENT.
I WOULD TELL HIM THAT IF I SAW
HIM.

The caption changes to "Julie Bindel, @bindelj."

Julie continues WHAT I WOULDN'T DO ALSO IS TO
SHARE A PLATFORM WITH BANNON.
WHAT I WOULDN'T DO IS WHAT
HAPPENS ALL OVER THE PLACE RIGHT
NOW, WHICH IS THAT PEOPLE
SAY, "I'M REFUSING TO HAVE... TO
CONTRIBUTE TO THAT EVENT UNLESS
YOU DISINVITE HIM."
WHAT I WOULD DO IS JUST
SAY, "OH, YOU'VE INVITED STEVE
BANNON ALSO.
NO, I'M NOT GOING TO BOTHER
COMING ALONG.
I DON'T WANT TO SIT THERE AND
WASTE MY TIME WITH HIM."
THAT'S AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT
THING FROM BULLYING ORGANIZERS
BY SAYING, "WELL, I'M GOING TO
DROP OUT AND I'M GOING TO DO IT
VERY, VERY PUBLICLY."

The caption changes to "Andray Domise, @andraydomise."

Andray says I THINK THAT'S WHAT THE
PEOPLE THAT DROPPED OUT OF THAT
FESTIVAL DID.
TO COME BACK TO AN EARLIER
POINT, WHEN YOU SAY YOU HAVE TO
EXPOSE PEOPLE TO DIFFERENT
POINTS OF VIEW.
LISTEN, I'M A BLACK PERSON
LIVING IN NORTH AMERICA.
I'VE BEEN EXPOSED TO THESE
POINTS OF VIEW ALL MY LIFE SINCE
I WAS CALLED THE N-WORD ON THE
PLAYGROUND.
WHY THE NEED TO EXPOSE ME TO IT,
FOR EXAMPLE?
WHY DO THEY NEED TO EXPOSE THE
DEBATE AUDIENCE TO IT?
I THINK THIS IDEA THAT
EVERYTHING CAN BE SOLVED IN THE
REALM OF DEBATE IS A VERY
COMFORTING LIE IN THE SENSE THAT
IF WE COULD SOLVE ALL PROBLEMS
IN THE REALM OF DEBATE, WHY DID
THE CIVIL WAR FOLLOW THE
LINCOLN-DOUGLAS DEBATES?
WE DIDN'T HAVE THE PHILADELPHIA
BOMBING?
EVERYTHING IS NOT GOING TO BE
SOLVED IN THE REALM OF DEBATE.
SOMETIMES WE HAVE TO DECIDE
WHETHER OR NOT IT'S WORTH IT TO
HAVE AUDIENCES EXPOSED TO MORE
OF THIS STUFF.
THAT'S HOW WHITE SUPREMACISTS
OPERATE.
HAVING THE PLATFORM IS THE
VICTORY FOR THEM, NOT WINNING
THE DEBATE.

Steve says JON?

Julie says I AGREE.
BUT I DON'T THINK YOU SHOULD
DISINVITE ONCE YOU HAVE INVITED
SOMEONE.
I THINK THAT'S WHERE THE PROBLEM
LIES.
AS A WOMAN AND A FEMINIST AND A
LESBIAN, I HAVE MET MISOGYNY A
MILLION TIMES.
I ABSOLUTELY AGREE.
YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO BE EXPOSED
TO THAT.
YOU DON'T NEED TO BE EXPOSED TO
THOSE WHITE SUPREMACIST IDEAS.
I DON'T NEED TO BE EXPOSED TO
ANY MORE MISOGYNY THAN I ALREADY
HAVE.
BUT WHAT I WANT TO DO IS MAKE
SURE THAT PEOPLE WHO REFUSE TO
ACCEPT THAT MISOGYNY OR RACISM
EXISTS AND CHALLENGE SOMEONE
WITH THOSE VIEWS, SUCH AS
BANNON.

Steve says JON KAY?

Jonathan says PROFESSOR
SEARS SAYS YOU WOULDN'T SHARE A
STAGE WITH BANNON.

Matthew says RIGHT.

The caption changes to "Jonathan Kay, @jonkay."

Jonathan says I WOULD ASK
YOU TO RE-THINK THAT BASED ON
THE EXPERIENCE I HAD AT THE MUNK
DEBATE ON FRIDAY NIGHT, WHICH
WAS WHAT I SAW WAS THAT THE
EXPERIENCE OF DEBATING BANNON
BROUGHT OUT WHAT I THOUGHT WAS
DAVID FRUM'S BEST SELF.
DAVID FRUM IS SEEN AS AN
CONSERVATIVE.
IN THE GREEN ROOM, WE WERE
TALKING ABOUT HIS RECORD IN
REGARD TO THE IRAQ WAR.
BUT IT WAS ACTUALLY INSPIRING TO
SEE FRUM GET ON THAT STAGE AND,
TOWARD THE END HE SAID,
EVERYBODY HERE KNOWS I'M A
CONSERVATIVE, BUT I AM GOING TO
SPEAK ON THESE POINTS IN A WAY
THAT I THINK SPEAKS FOR LIBERALS
AND CONSERVATIVES, THAT WHAT WE
WANT TO DO IS LIVE IN COUNTRIES
WHERE EVERY VOTE IS COUNTED,
WHERE THE COURTS ARE FAIR, WHERE
WE LIVE IN A HUMANE SOCIETY,
WHERE PEOPLE ARE TREATED
EQUALLY, WHERE YOU DON'T HAVE
BIGOTRY, THAT SORT OF THING, AND
HE REACHED ACROSS THE DIVIDE IN
THAT MOMENT, BUT HE ONLY REACHED
ACROSS BECAUSE HE THOUGHT THIS
WAS NECESSARY TO SHOW THE
FALLACIES OF HIS OPPONENT.
SO IT WAS THE DYNAMICS OF THE
DEBATE WHICH SHOWED THE
UNIVERSALITY OF HIS ARGUMENTS IN
A WAY THAT TRANSCENDED
CONSERVATISM AND LIBERALISM,
WHICH I'D LIKE TO THINK,
PROFESSOR SEARS, YOU'D BE
CAPABLE OF DOING THAT IN A
DEBATE.

Matthew says I APPRECIATE
THAT.
I DISAGREE IN THE SENSE THAT I
THINK FRUM HAS BEEN EXPRESSING
THESE VIEWS... HE'S FAIRLY
CLEARLY AT LEAST PUBLICLY
DISTANCED HIMSELF FROM THE WAY
THAT HE USED TO THINK WHEN HE
WAS WORKING FOR PRESIDENT GEORGE
W. BUSH, BUT HE WRITES IN THE
ATLANTIC REGULARLY, HE HAS MANY
PLATFORMS IN WHICH HE'S SHARED
THESE VIEWS ABOUT WHAT HE THINKS
A LIBERAL SOCIETY SHOULD BE, AS
YOU SAY HE BROUGHT OUT BECAUSE
OF BANNON.
I'M NOT WORRIED HE WOULDN'T BE
ABLE TO MAKE GOOD ARGUMENTS
AGAINST STEVE BANNON.
I ACTUALLY THINK I WOULD.
OR SOMEONE WITH STEVE BANNON'S
POPULIST FAR-RIGHT TENDENCIES.
MY WORRY IS, THOUGH, THAT FOR
ME, THERE'S VERY LITTLE AT STAKE
IN THIS KIND OF DEBATE.
WHEN STEVE BANNON IS FOSTERING
FAR RIGHT MOVEMENTS IN HUNGARY,
IN BRAZIL, IN THE U.K...

Jonathan says WHICH FRUM MENTIONED AND CALLED HIM OUT ON THAT.

Matthew says HE SHOULD
CALL HIM OUT ON THAT.

Jonathan says HE DID.

Matthew says MY WORRY IS
I DON'T STAND TO LOSE MUCH IF
STEVE BANNON'S PERSPECTIVE IS
GIVEN EQUAL PLATFORM WITH EVEN
DAVID FRUM'S PERSPECTIVE.
I DISAGREE WITH FRUM ON A LOT OF
THINGS, BUT I THINK HE'S SOMEONE
WE COULD DEBATE.
HOWEVER, WHEN YOU'RE TALKING
ABOUT THINGS LIKE STRAIGHT-UP
WHITE NATIONALISM, WHITE
SUPREMACISM, THE KIND OF
POPULIST NIHILISM THAT LEADS TO
THE DESTABILIZATION OF SOCIETY,
WHICH IS WHAT BREITBART AND
BANNON TRIES TO DO, THAT'S NOT
GOING TO THREATEN MY LIFE IN THE
SAME WAY IT IS THE PEOPLE THAT
ARE DIFFERENT FROM PEOPLE, THE
PEOPLE THAT BANNON IS TARGETING,
PEOPLE LIKE THOSE IN THAT
CARAVAN APPROACHING THE UNITED
STATES BORDER, PEOPLE LIKE
MUSLIM IMMIGRANTS TO CANADA.
AND SO...

The caption changes to "How do you defeat and idea?"

Andray says OR THE GUY
SITTING RIGHT NEXT TO YOU.

Matthew says RIGHT.
I HAVEN'T FACED THOSE KINDS OF
TAUNTS ON SCHOOL YARDS OR
ANYWHERE ELSE...

Andray says I'LL PUT IT
THIS WAY.
I DEDICATED MY DAUGHTER AT A
BLACK CHURCH A COUPLE OF WEEKS
AGO.
THE THOUGHT THAT WENT THROUGH MY
HEAD WHEN I GO THROUGH HISTORIC
BLACK AREAS, INCLUDING THIS
CHURCH, WAS WHAT IF SOMEBODY
BROKE INTO THIS PLACE?
WOULDN'T THIS BE THE PLACE THAT
IF YOU WANTED TO STRIKE FEAR
INTO THE HEART OF BLACK
COMMUNITY, YOU WOULD BREAK INTO
THIS CHURCH AND OPEN FIRE?
THE SAME THING HAPPENS AT
MOSQUES AND SYNAGOGUES.
THE PLACES WHERE YOU COULD BE
UNDER ATTACK BY BANNON ARE ON A
DEBATE STAGE.
THE PLACES WHERE WE ARE UNDER
ATTACK IS PHYSICALLY IN OUR
HOMES, ON THE STREETS AND PUBLIC
PLACES.
I THINK THE STAKES ARE
COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WHEN WE'RE
TALKING ABOUT THE STAKES OF A
DEBATE VERSUS THE STAKES OF WHAT
IS IT THAT BANNON IS ESPOUSING.

The caption changes to "tvo.org/theagenda; agendaconnect@tvo.org."

Steve says LET ME OPEN THIS UP
TO A BROADER CONVERSATION AND,
JULIE, STARTING WITH YOU FIRST.
WHAT DO YOU THINK THE EFFORTS
TO, QUOTE, UNQUOTE, DE-PLATFORM
PEOPLE, IN OTHER WORDS RESCIND
INVITATIONS TO THEM, TO DENY
THEM A STAGE UPON WHICH TO MAKE
THEIR VIEWS KNOWN, WHAT DO YOU
THINK THAT SAYS ABOUT THE
CURRENT STATE OF OUR POLITICAL
CULTURE IN WESTERN SOCIETY?

The caption changes to "The right not to be offended."

Julie says THAT WHO
SHOUTS THE LOUDEST IS THE ONE
WHO IS GOING TO REAP THE
BENEFIT, AND IT SHOULDN'T BE
LIKE THAT.
I THINK THAT IT SHOWS THAT WE
HAVE AN ILLIBERAL POLITICS IN
THE WESTERN WORLD, IN THE GLOBAL
NORTH; IN PARTICULAR, WE HAVE
FEAR, HYPOCRISY, AND COWARDICE I
THINK RATHER THAN PEOPLE
STICKING UP FOR PRINCIPLES AND
DOING THE KIND OF COLD-FACE
CHALLENGING, THE KIND OF THING
THAT GETS YOUR HANDS DIRTY.
YOU KNOW, I REPORT ON ISSUES OF
SEXUAL VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN
AND GIRLS ALL OVER THE WORLD,
AND I SEE GOVERNMENTS AND POLICE
OFFICERS AND PROSECUTORS AND
MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC LYING
ABOUT THE PREVALENCE OF THIS
HORROR AND DISMISSING THE
EFFECTS ON WOMEN BECAUSE WE ARE
LIVING UNDER TERROR, WE ARE AT
WAR, AND WE ARE BADLY LOSING.
AND RATHER THAN PEOPLE STAND UP
FOR WHAT IS RIGHT IN OUR
POLITICAL SYSTEM, I OFTEN FIND
THAT PEOPLE WILL JUST APPEASE
THOSE WHO THEY THINK THEY CAN
GET THE VOTE FROM.
AND THIS IS WHAT'S HAPPENING
WITH NO PLATFORMING.
WE NOW CAN SEE IT WORKING
AGAINST THE HUMAN RIGHTS
DEFENDERS; FOR EXAMPLE, WITHIN
FEMINISM.
RATHER THAN AGAINST THE
MISOGYNISTS.
WE CAN SEE THAT BULLYING CULTURE
BE TARGETED TO THOSE WHO
ACTUALLY ARE NOT WRONG DOERS BUT
ARE HUMAN RIGHTS DEFENDERS.

Steve says IT'S HAPPENED TO
YOU, HASN'T IT?
YOU'VE BEEN DE-PLAT FORMED.
TELL US THE CIRCUMSTANCES.

Julie says I'VE BEEN ALL MY ADULT LIFE,
COMING UP TO 40 YEARS NOW, I'VE
BEEN A FEMINIST CAMPAIGNER.
PROPER CAMPAIGNING.
NOT KEYBOARD WARRIOR TYPE
CAMPAIGNING.
BUT ACTUAL CAMPAIGNING.
AND THAT'S WHAT I'VE DEVOTED MY
UNPAID TIME TO AS WELL AS A LOT
OF MY JOURNALISM AND RESEARCH.
AND IN 2004, I WROTE AN ARTICLE
THAT OFFENDED SOME PEOPLE WITHIN
THE TRANSGENDER COMMUNITY.
THIS IS NOT INDICATIVE AT ALL OF
TRANSGENDER PEOPLE IN GENERAL.
IT WAS A CABAL OF MISOGYNISTS
WHO DECIDED THAT THEY WOULD GIVE
FEMINISTS A GOOD KICKING WHO
SAID THINGS SUCH AS GENDER IS A
SOCIAL CONSTRUCT.
WE ARE NOT BORN WITH BLUE BRAINS
AND PINK BRAINS.
SEX IS NOT THE SAME AS GENDER.
THAT KIND OF THING.
OR FULLY INTACT MALE-BODIED
PEOPLE SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO
IDENTIFY AS WOMEN AND COUNSEL
RAPE VICTIMS.
I WAS IMMEDIATELY PUT ON A NO
PLATFORM LIST THAT THE NATIONAL
STUDENTS HAVE IN THIS SOCIETY.
I WAS THE OPENLY INDIVIDUAL ON
THAT LIST.
AND I WAS ADDED TO THE LIST THAT
HAD SIX FASCIST GROUPS THAT WERE
NO-PLATFORMED.
I BECAME THE SEVENTH
NO-PLATFORMED.
AND I HAVE BEEN ON UNIVERSITY
CAMPUSES WHERE STUDENTS HAVE
SAID THAT THEY'RE TOO TRIGGERED
AND TRAUMATIZED TO READ THE
ARTICLES I'VE WRITTEN ABOUT THIS
ISSUE, DESPITE THE FACT THESE
ARE THREE OR FOUR ARTICLES OUT
OF HUNDREDS OF PIECES I'VE
WRITTEN ABOUT OTHER TOPICS,
BECAUSE OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, I
AM DEBATING... THEY'RE NOT UP
FOR DEBATING THEIR RIGHT TO
EXIST, WHICH IS ALWAYS WHAT IS
THROWN AT US.
SO I'M WITH THE FASCISTS.
IT'S JUST WHAT THEY CALL ME,
WHICH IS TERSE, IT MEANS WITCH,
IT MEANS SOMETHING WORSE THAN
THAT THAT WE CAN'T SAY ON YOUR
PROGRAM.
THAT'S HOW EASY IT'S BEEN FOR
THEM BECAUSE THEY INSTILL
COWARDICE IN THE LIBERALS WHO
SAY THIS ISN'T RIGHT.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Steve says ANDRAY, I WANT TO
FOLLOW UP.
CLEARLY SOME PEOPLE HAVE FOUND
JULIE'S VIEWS TO BE SO OFFENSIVE
SHE IS NO LONGER TO SPEAK ON A
PUBLIC PLATFORM ABOUT THINGS
BECAUSE OF PEOPLE SHE JUST CITED.
DO PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT NOT TO
BE OFFENDED?

Andray says I THINK
THAT'S A... FRAMING THE QUESTION
THAT WAY IS NOT WHAT'S HAPPENING
ON THE GROUND.
I THINK FOR SOME PEOPLE, AND
I'LL SAY THAT I'M FRIENDS WITH
MANY PEOPLE IN THE
TRANS COMMUNITY, IT'S NOT A
MATTER OF BEING OFFENDED.
IT'S A MATTER OF... AS FAR AS
WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE UNITED
STATES, FOR EXAMPLE, THEIR VERY
EXISTENCE BEING REDEFINED AWAY
BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
THAT BASICALLY WANTS TO OR AT
LEAST IS PUTTING FORWARD A
MOTION TO DEFINE THE GENDER AT
BIRTH, THAT IS WHAT THE CHILD'S
GENITALS ARE, THAT IS SIMPLY
WHAT YOU ARE FOR LIFE REGARDLESS
OF HOW YOU IDENTIFY.
FOR THE TRANS COMMUNITY TO FEEL
THEY'RE UNDER ATTACK, I CAN
COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND.

Jonathan says TO BE CLEAR,
JULIE IS NOT ADVOCATING THE
TRUMP POSITION, SHE'S ADVOCATING
HER OWN...

Andray says I'M NOT
SAYING SHE IS.
I'M NOT FAMILIAR ENOUGH WITH
YOUR WORK, JULIE, TO COME DOWN
ON ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER.
WHAT I AM SAYING, THOUGH, IS DO
PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT NOT TO BE
OFFENDED?
THAT'S INCREDIBLY REDUCTIONIST
AS TO WHY PEOPLE PROTEST SOMEONE
LIKE STEVE BANNON'S SHOWING UP.
I'VE HEARD OTHER PEOPLE BEING
NOT PLAT FORMED THAT DO NOT HAVE
THE RIGHT TO BE ON UNIVERSITY
CAMPUSES.
IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN, ANNE
COULTER WAS NO PLATFORMED FROM
RYERSON.
WHY WOULD THEY WANT TO HOST
RACISTS AND...

Steve says TO BE FAIR, RYERSON
DIDN'T WANT TO.
THERE WAS A STUDENT GROUP WITHIN
RYERSON THAT WANTED TO.
WHEN THE SECURITY CONCERNS GOT
OUT OF CONTROL, THE WHOLE THING
WAS CANCELLED.

Andray says THE WHOLE
THING WAS CANCELLED.
FRANKLY, WHY WOULD WE WANT TO
HAVE THAT?
I DON'T BELIEVE THE UNIVERSITY
OR THE ACADEMY IS THE PLACE TO
PLACE ALL IDEAS IN FRONT OF
PEOPLE AND LET THEM MAKE UP
THEIR OWN MINDS.
THAT'S NOT HOW UNIVERSITIES
WORK.

Steve says WE HAVE A GUY MAKING
HIS LIVING AT A UNIVERSITY, SO
LET US HEAR FROM YOU NOW.

Matthew says THE RIGHT TO
BE NOT OFFENDED, IT'S A BIT OF A
CANARD.

Steve says WRONG QUESTION FOR
THE CIRCUMSTANCES?

Matthew says RIGHT.
I AGREE WITH ANDRAY.
I DON'T THINK THAT'S WHAT'S
GOING ON.
ALSO, THESE PEOPLE HAVE A RIGHT
TO SAY I ACTUALLY DON'T WANT TO
GO AND HEAR A CERTAIN PERSON
SPEAK.
THEY HAVE THAT RIGHT.
THEY HAVE THAT RIGHT TO COMPLAIN
TO THE ORGANIZER OF THE EVENT
SAYING, "I ACTUALLY DISAGREE
WITH YOU INVITING THIS PERSON TO
SPEAK."
AND I ALSO THINK THE NO-PLATFORM
THING IN SOME CIRCUMSTANCES
MIGHT BE A LITTLE OVERBLOWN.
I'M GRATEFUL THAT YOU, STEVE,
HAVE DR. BINDEL ON OR MS. BINDEL
ON TODAY.
SHE IS NOT BEING NO-PLATFORMED
HERE.
SHE IS ABLE TO WRITE ABOUT THESE
EXPERIENCES IN THE GUARDIAN.
I'VE NEVER PUBLISHED IN THE
GUARDIAN, FOR EXAMPLE, BUT I
DON'T FEEL NO-PLATFORMED BY THE
GUARDIAN.
SO IF YOU'RE NOT AS WELCOME OR
TURNED AWAY FROM CERTAIN
ACADEMIC EVENTS ON CAMPUS OR
CERTAIN DEBATE NIGHTS, THINGS
LIKE THAT, I'M NOT SURE THAT
THAT'S THE SAME KIND OF THING WE
MEAN WHEN WE THINK
DE-PLATFORMING.
THESE PEOPLE OFTEN HAVE MANY
OTHER PLATFORMS THAT THEY CAN
TAKE ADVANTAGE OF.

Steve says LET ME TRY THIS WITH
JON KAY.

Julie says THAT'S
COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.

Steve says LET ME TRY THIS WITH
JON.
YOU JUST HEARD ANDRAY SAY THIS
ISN'T A QUESTION OF BEING FREE
FROM OFFENCE.
IT'S A BIGGER QUESTION THAN
THAT.
IS THAT HOW YOU SEE IT?

The caption changes to "Does it work?"

Jonathan says IT IS A
BIGGER QUESTION.
I THINK I AGREE TO A CERTAIN
EXTENT WITH PROFESSOR SEARS THAT
ONE OF THE GREATEST INDICTMENTS
YOU COULD MAKE OF THE NO
PLATFORM MOVEMENT IS IT'S
COMPLETELY INEFFECTIVE.
JULIE BINDEL, THEY TRIED TO
DEPLATFORM HER.
IT'S ACTUALLY HOW I FOUND OUT
ABOUT HER AND PUBLISHED HER IN
QUILLETTE.
I WOULDN'T HAVE KNOWN HER NAME
UNLESS THEY MADE THIS EFFORT TO
DEPLATFORM HER.
THE GREATEST DEPLATFORM EFFORT
HAS BEEN AGAINST JORDAN
PETERSON.
AS A RESULT OF THAT EFFORT, AS A
RESULT OF PEOPLE SHOWING UP,
SOMETIMES ALLEGEDLY WITH
WEAPONS, YOU KNOW, WHEN HE TRIES
TO SPEAK ON CAMPUS, HE HAS
BECOME THE MOST SUCCESSFUL
PUBLIC INTELLECTUAL IN CANADA
LARGELY ON THE BACKS OF PEOPLE
SAYING HIS VIEWS ARE SO
DANGEROUS, NO ONE SHOULD BE
PERMITTED TO HEAR THEM.
AS SOON AS PEOPLE SAY THAT,
PEOPLE LIKE ME ARE LIKE, I WANT
TO HEAR THOSE VIEWS.

Steve says DEPLATFORMING JUST
DOESN'T WORK?

Jonathan says IN MOST CASES IT DOESN'T.
FOR THOSE IT DOES WORK AGAINST
TEND TO BE THE MOST POWERLESS
MINOR PLAYERS... THE EXAMPLE,
THE CANADIAN EQUIVALENT OF JULIE
BINDEL IS AN ACTIVIST NAMED
MEGAN MURPHY WHO WORKS OUT OF
VANCOUVER, ALSO A LIFE-LONG FEMINIST.
SHE WAS THROWN OUT OF A
LEFT-WING PUBLICATION BECAUSE,
AGAIN, SHE WASN'T ON...

Julie says AND THESE
STUDENTS, MAINLY WOMEN BUT ALSO
SOME MEN, ARE NOT ALLOWED TO
HEAR ME.
IT'S PUNISHMENT.
IT'S LIKE A WITCH HUNT.
SO IT'S ACTUALLY MY UNPAID WORK
THAT SUFFERS AND THE FEMINIST
STUDENTS WHO WANT TO HEAR
ANOTHER VERSION OF REALITY,
BECAUSE WHAT THEY'RE BEING
PEDALED AT THE MOMENT IS THIS
ORWELLIAN NONSENSE WHICH IS THAT
A WOMAN IS JUST A FEELING RATHER
THAN GROUNDED IN BIOLOGICAL
REALITY OR THAT PROSTITUTION IS
EMPOWERING OR THAT THE VEIL IS
NOT THE A SYMBOL OF WOMEN'S
OPPRESSION AND RELIGION IS GOOD
FOR WOMEN... THEY'RE HEARING
THIS ORWELLIAN NONSENSE AND THEY
HAVE A RIGHT TO LISTEN TO
ANOTHER VIEW.
AND SO IT'S ABOUT THE
HUMILIATION THAT FEMINISTS SUCH
AS MYSELF GO THROUGH AT
UNIVERSITIES THAT ACTUALLY
PLATFORM MINOR DICTATORS OR, FOR
ONE EXAMPLE WHERE I WAS SCREENED
AT AND HECKLED WALKING THROUGH A
UNIVERSITY, I WAS THERE TO
DEBATE A PORNOGRAPHER WHO MAKES
RACIST AND DEEPLY MISOGYNISTIC
PORNOGRAPHY.
THEY DIDN'T EVEN PROTEST HIM.
THEY WERE SCREAMING AT ME
BECAUSE I DEBATE THEIR RIGHT TO
EXIST.
WELL, THAT'S NONSENSE.
IT'S JUST ANOTHER EXCUSE FOR
SO-CALLED PROGRESSIVE MEN TO
SCREAM BITCH AT FEMINISTS LIKE
ME AND STILL BE SEEN AS BEING ON
THE RIGHT SIDE OF HISTORY.
THAT'S WHAT IT'S ABOUT.

Andray says I DON'T
THINK THAT ANYBODY... A
REASONABLE HUMAN BEING WOULD
THINK THAT WHAT YOU DESCRIBE IS
RATIONAL, REASONABLE, LOGICAL,
SOMETHING THAT SHOULD HAPPEN IN
ANY SETTING...

Jonathan says IT GOES ON
ALL THE TIME ON CAMPUSES.
EVEN TRANSGENDER SPEAKERS ARE
SHOUTED DOWN IF THEY'RE NOT
RADICALIZED ENOUGH ACCORDING TO
THE MOST RECENT DOGMA.
OFTEN THIS ISN'T PUBLICIZED.
ACROSS CAMPUSES THERE ARE MINOR
LEAGUE FIGURES, THIS HAPPENS IN
OBSCURITY AND THEIR CAREERS ARE
KILLED, THEY'VE BEEN
DEPLATFORMED BECAUSE THEY DON'T
TOW THE LINE OF THE FLAVOUR OF
THE WEEK ON DOGMA.

Matthew says CAN YOU GIVE
ME AN EXAMPLE?

Jonathan says MEGAN MURPHY.
NO ONE COVERS THIS.
MEGAN MURPHY WAS SUPPOSED TO
SPEAK AT LAURIER.

Matthew says I HEARD ABOUT THAT.

Jonathan says DID she SPEAK
AT LAURIER?
NO.
SHE SPOKE OFF-SITE.
SOMEBODY DECIDED THAT AN 8,000 dollar
SECURITY FEE WAS REQUIRED.
AS A RESULT THEY TRIED TO SHUT
IT DOWN.
SHE WENT OFF-SITE.
BY HER OWN INITIATIVE, SHE WAS
ABLE TO DO THE EVENT.
BUT GUESS WHAT?
BLACK LIVES MATTER CAME TO
LAURIER AND THEY CHARGED BLACK
LIVES MATTER 8,000 dollars, I WOULD BE
THE FIRST TO PROTEST BECAUSE I
WOULD SAY THAT'S BULL SHIT.
YOU'RE TRYING TO SHUT THE SPEECH
DOWN.
YOU'RE USING THE PRETEXT OF
MONEY.
IF BDS CAME TO TORONTO AND YOU
HAD A PALESTINIAN GROUP
PROTESTING, WE WOULD KNOW THAT'S
A PRETEXT AND THEY'RE TRYING TO
SHUT IT DOWN AND I WOULD PROTEST
THAT...

Andray says I'M GLAD YOU
BROUGHT THAT UP.
FOR EXAMPLE, BEYOND THE
DISCOURSE OF DEPLATFORMING, WHAT
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IS FREE
SPEECH.
WHEN KHAN SAID SOMETHING
DALHOUSIE STUDENTS DIDN'T LIKE.
A PROFESSOR FROM NEW JERSEY WENT
ON TUCKER CARLSON'S SHOW AND SHE
WAS FIRED.
I DIDN'T SEE FREE SPEECH
WARRIORS SPEAKING OUT FOR THEM.
WHEN THERE WAS A NEWS
BROADCASTER WHO SHARED AN
ARTICLE ABOUT WHITE WOMEN
FRAGILITY COSTING BLACK WOMEN
THEIR CAREERS, SHE PUT IT ON HER
PERSONAL FACEBOOK PAGE.
SHE WAS FIRED FROM HER JOB.
I DIDN'T SEE THE STALWARTS...

Jonathan says CONSERVATIVES CAN BE JUST AS
BAD AS LIBERALS ON THIS.
WE TALK ABOUT TRIGGER WARNINGS.
THE STATISTIC THAT'S SELDOM
SHARED IS THE BIGGEST TRIGGER ON
CAMPUSES ARE CONSERVATIVES.
RELIGIOUS STUDENTS ARE SAYING
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SEX OR
SATANISM AND I FEEL TRIGGERED AS
A CHRISTIAN CONSERVATIVE.
YOU SEE CONSERVATIVES ARE TAKING
THE DEPLATFORM WARNINGS, SNOW
FLAKE, ALL THAT STUFF.
I OBJECT TO IT ON THE LEFT, I
OBJECT TO IT ON THE RIGHT.
I THINK IT'S TIME FOR PEOPLE TO
ACT LIKE ADULTS.
JULIE IS VERY MUCH A WOMAN FROM
THE LEFT.
I'M OFTEN CALLED A CONSERVATIVE.
YOU OFTEN SEE AN ALLIANCE ACROSS
THE SPECTRUM OF PEOPLE FED UP
WITH THIS AND HAVE A BACK BONE.

Steve says LET'S PICK UP FROM
WHERE JONATHAN KAY LEFT OFF.
WHAT DO WE DO?
WE HAVE SORT OF ESTABLISHED THAT
DEPLATFORMING DOESN'T ACTUALLY
WORK.
IT DOESN'T HAVE THE EFFECT THAT
THOSE WHO WANT IT TO WORK HAVE
IN THE FIRST PLACE.
WHAT DO WE DO NOW?

Julie says WELL, I WOULD
SHUN THE VIEWS OF THOSE I DON'T
WISH TO BE ON A PLATFORM WITH OR
COLLUDE WITH, FOR EXAMPLE,
RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALISTS.
NO.
I WON'T GO THERE.
THERE'S NO WAY THAT THIS WOULD
BENEFIT FEMINISM AND IT
CERTAINLY WOULDN'T BENEFIT THEM.
WHAT WE DO NOW IS, I THINK THAT
WE SAY THAT THE LEFT HAS A MAJOR
PROBLEM WITH WOMEN, WHICH IT
DOES.
MISOGYNY IS NEVER AN ISSUE UNTIL
SOMEBODY THEN...
(UNCLEAR.)
NOBODY CARED ABOUT HIS MISOGYNY
ON THE LIBERAL LEFT, FOR
EXAMPLE, TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT
HIM.
IT TOOK HIM COMING OUT WITH SOME
FAIRLY BANAL COMMENT ABOUT HOW
GAY MEN SHOULD BE ABLE TO HAVE
SEX WITH YOUNG PEOPLE THAT ARE
OLD ENOUGH TO APPRECIATE IT.
IT'S BEEN SAID BY ACTIVISTS SEEN
AS HERO'S IN THIS COUNTRY AND NO
ACTION HAS EVER BEEN TAKEN
BECAUSE THE GAY ACTIVISTS THAT
SAID IT IN THIS COUNTRY IN PRINT
IS OF THE LEFT.
SO I THINK WHAT WE HAVE TO
RECOGNIZE IS WHERE THIS IS
COMING FROM.
IT'S NOT ABOUT BLANKET FREE
SPEECH.
I AM NOT A PROPONENT OF BLANKET
FREEDOM OF SPEECH.
I APPRECIATE THE LEGISLATION WE
HAVE IN THIS COUNTRY TO LOOK AT
INCITEMENT TO CRIME, AND I WANT
IT TO STAY.
BUT WE HAVE TO STOP TARGETING
PARTICULAR GROUPS BECAUSE WE
KNOW IT'S EFFECTIVE IN SHUTTING
THEM UP.
STEVE BANNON IS ONE CASE IN
POINT.
BUT HE IS AN EXAMPLE OF HOW
PEOPLE GET TERRIFIED OF STANDING
THEIR GROUND ONCE THEY HAVE
INVITED THEM.
I FIND HIM ABHORRENT, AS I'VE
SAID.
BUT UNFORTUNATELY WHAT HAPPENS
WITH EVERY SUCCESS OF HAVING
SOMEONE LIKE BANNON DEPLATFORMED
IS THAT THEY COME AFTER THOSE OF
US WHO ARE PROGRESSIVES BUT WHO
SPEAK ABOUT UNPOPULAR THINGS,
SUCH AS MALE VIOLENCE, FOR
EXAMPLE.
BECAUSE NEXT IT WILL BE ANOTHER
GROUP, ANOTHER GROUP THAT WILL
BE USED AS AN EXAMPLE AGAINST
ALL OF THE OTHERS THAT ALSO NEED
TO SHUT UP IN THE EYES OF THE
SO-CALLED SOCIAL JUSTICE
WARRIORS.
SO WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS IF WE
INVITE SOMEBODY, WE NEED TO
STAND OUR GROUND.
WE NEED TO REPORT PEOPLE TO THE
POLICE, IF THEY'RE THREATENING
TO BOMB THE VENUE, SUCH AS HAS
HAPPENED WITH WOMEN IN THE U.K.
SPEAKING ABOUT GENDER
SELF-IDENTIFICATION, FOR
EXAMPLE.
WE NEED TO ACCEPT, AS JONATHAN
SAID, THAT THERE ARE GROWN-UP
CONVERSATIONS TO BE HAD AND
BULLYING SHOULD NOT BE A PART OF
THAT.

Steve says JUST A COUPLE OF
MINUTES TO GO.
GO AHEAD, MATT.

Matthew says SO IF
NO-PLATFORMING DOESN'T WORK, I
THINK ONE OF THE WAYS THAT WE
CAN HAVE THESE GROWN-UP
CONVERSATIONS IS TO HOLD
ORGANIZATIONS LIKE THE MUNK
FOUNDATION TO ACCOUNT.
SO WHAT I THINK... I'M NOT
ADVOCATING FOR CENSORSHIP.
I'M NOT ADVOCATING FOR OUTLAWING
SPEECH.

Steve says WHAT ARE YOU
ADVOCATING FOR?

Matthew says WHAT I'M ADVOCATING IS THAT JOURNALISTS, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE
MAINSTREAM JOURNALISTS, ACTUALLY
QUESTION WHETHER DAVID FRUM AND
STEVE BANNON IS A LEGITIMATE
DEBATE TO HAVE.
ASK WHY IS THE MUNK FOUNDATION
CONCERNED WITH THESE KINDS OF...

Jonathan says WHAT DOES THAT MEAN
LEGITIMATE?
CAN YOU DEFINE THE WORD
LEGITIMATE?

Matthew says WHAT IS A
PRODUCTIVE DEBATE TO HAVE?

Jonathan says WHY IS THAT A QUESTION TO ASK?
IF PEOPLE WANT TO GO, WHY ARE
YOU PUTTING A LITMUS TEST ON IT?

Matthew says THEY WEREN'T
QUESTIONING WHETHER THIS IS A
PRODUCTIVE, THIS IS A REAL
DEBATE THAT REALLY GETS ACROSS
THE SPECTRUM...

Jonathan says THEN DON'T GO.

Matthew says WE CAN STILL
CALL OUT THE MUNK FOUNDATION
FOR...

Jonathan says I AGREE.

Matthew says THAT'S ALL
I'M SAYING.
WE CAN CALL THEM OUT FOR SKEWING
THE DEBATE IN A CERTAIN
DIRECTION.
WE CAN ASK WHAT IS THE MUNK
FOUNDATION AND ITS FUNDING?

Steve says IT IS ASSUMING TO
HAVE TWO CONSERVATIVES DEBATING SOMETHING?

Matthew says YES, AND IN
GENERAL, AS AN ACADEMIC, WE NEED
TO BE MORE UP-FRONT AND OPEN
ABOUT HOW DEBATES AND ACADEMIA
ACTUALLY HAPPEN.
THEY DON'T HAPPEN ON AN
ENTERTAINMENT STAGE.
AND THEY DON'T HAPPEN BETWEEN
TWO ALMOST SIMILAR OR IDENTICAL
VIEWS OR AT THE END OF THE
SAME...

Steve says FRUM AND BANNON WERE
ALMOST IDENTICAL VIEWS?

Matthew says THEY'RE NOT AS DISSIMILAR...

Jonathan says YOU SAY IT'S NOT IN MY TRIBE IDEOLOGICALLY.
IN OTHER WORDS, THEY'RE PART OF
THE OTHER... LOOK, IN TORONTO
EVERY WEEK, EVERY MONTH, THERE
ARE ALL KINDS OF DEBATES THAT
ARE MONOTONE LEFTIST.
I USED TO WORK FOR THE WALRUS
FOUNDATION, AND ONE OF THE
REASONS THAT I WAS IDEOLOGICAL
DISCORDANT WITHIN THAT
ORGANIZATION IS THEY'D HAVE
THESE CORPORATE SPONSORED WALRUS
TALKS WHERE THEY WOULD HAVE
SEVEN OR EIGHT SPEAKERS, EVERY
SINGLE ONE OF THEM OFTEN A
LEFTIST.
NO ONE CAME TO PROTEST.

Andray says WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY A
LEFTIST?
IF WE'RE GOING TO GET INTO
DEFINITIONS, WHAT IS A LEFTIST?

Jonathan says NO ONE CAME TO PROTEST AND NO
ONE SHOULD COME TO PROTEST.
IF YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR PEOPLE
WHO ARE WELL-INTENTIONED
ACTIVISTS ON BEHALF OF WHATEVER
GROUP YOU WANT, THESE ARE OFTEN
PEOPLE I RESPECT AS MY FRIENDS,
THEY WERE MONOTONE LEFT.
YOU CAN GO TO MONOTONE RIGHT.

The caption changes to "Producer: Eric Bombicino, @ebombicino."

Steve says FRIENDS, THANK YOU
FOR COMING IN TO TVO AND HELPING
US OUT WITH THIS.
I DO WANT TO MAKE SURE WE HAVE
ENOUGH SATELLITE TIME LEFT,
WE'RE DOWN TO OUR LAST 20
SECONDS, SO WE CAN THANK JULIE
BINDEL BEING THERE ON THE LINE
FROM LONDON, U.K., THE FOUNDER
OF JUSTICE FOR WOMEN.
JULIE, WE'RE GRATEFUL FOR YOUR
CONTRIBUTION TO OUR PROGRAM
TONIGHT AND TO YOU THREE IN OUR
STUDIOS TONIGHT IN TORONTO,
THANKS SO MUCH TO YOU AS WELL.

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