Transcript: She's Mad as Hell | Dec 13, 2018

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, blue shirt, and spotted gray tie.

A caption on screen reads "The political power of women's anger. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says REMEMBER WHEN THE US
WAS POISED TO ELECT
ITS FIRST FEMALE PRESIDENT,
THEN THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE
PICKED DONALD TRUMP INSTEAD?
THE PINK HAT MARCH ON WASHINGTON
THE DAY AFTER TRUMP'S
INAUGURATION CAPTURED
THE INTENSE REACTION MANY WOMEN
HAD TO THAT CHOICE,
AND IT HAS CERTAINLY
NOT ABATED.
IT'S ADDED TO A LONG TRAJECTORY
OF OUTRAGE,
WHICH IS CAPTURED IN
REBECCA TRAISTER'S NEW BOOK.
SHE IS WRITER AT LARGE FOR
NEW YORK MAGAZINE,
AND AUTHOR MOST RECENTLY OF...
GOOD AND MAD: THE REVOLUTIONARY
POWER OF WOMEN'S ANGER.
AND REBECCA TRAISTER JOINS US
NOW FOR MORE.

Rebecca is in her forties, with shoulder-length straight dark hair. She's wearing a black blazer.
A picture of her book appears briefly on screen. The cover is white, with the title in red and a backdrop of the word "F * U C K" repeated in the background.

Steve continues GREAT TO MEET you.

Rebecca says IT'S WONDERFUL TO BE HERE.

Steve says I MEAN, I GUESS YOU'VE BEEN ON
BEFORE, BUT IT WAS ON SATELLITE.

REBECCA SAYS BUT NOT HERE.

Steve says NOT AT THIS TABLE.
WE'VE NEVER SHAKEN HANDS BEFORE.

Rebecca says RIGHT.

Steve says WAS THERE ONE... I MEAN,
YOU'VE GOT A LIST OF ABOUT A
THOUSAND YOU COULD PICK FROM.
BUT WAS THERE ONE THING IN
PARTICULAR
THAT JUST PUT YOU OVER
THE EDGE AND SAID,
"THAT'S THE LAST STRAW.
I GOT A LOT TO SAY ABOUT THIS.
I GOTTA WRITE THIS BOOK"?

The caption changes to "Rebecca Traister. Author, 'Good and mad.'"
Then, it changes again to "She's mad as hell."

Rebecca says THE BIG, BIG THING WAS
THE ELECTION OF DONALD TRUMP.
SO... BUT IT'S NOT QUITE FAIR TO
SAY THAT THAT PUT ME OVER
SOME KIND OF EDGE.
THERE HAD BEEN...
I THINK IN PART, IT WAS ABOUT ME
CHANGING FRAMES.
AND REALIZING HOW MUCH I'D BEEN
WRITING ABOUT ANGER,
WITHOUT REALIZING THAT I'D BEEN
WRITING ABOUT ANGER
AS A FEMINIST JOURNALIST
FOR MORE THAN 10 YEARS.
I MEAN, THAT WAS REALLY PUT ME
OVER THE EDGE TO WRITE THIS BOOK
WAS THE MERE SUGGESTION... AND IT
ACTUALLY CAME FROM MY HUSBAND.
BECAUSE I... ANGER HAS
UNDERGIRDED SO MUCH OF MY WORK.
I'VE BEEN WRITING ABOUT
FEMINISM,
ABOUT GENDER INEQUALITY,
RACIAL INEQUALITY,
ECONOMIC INEQUALITY,
TRULY FOR ABOUT 15 YEARS.
ANGER HAS OBVIOUSLY BEEN
UNDERNEATH SO MUCH OF WHAT I DO.
BUT LIKE SO MANY WOMEN,
I'VE ALWAYS TAKEN PAINS
TO SORT OF COVER IT UP,
AND NOT MAKE IT TOO AGGRESSIVE,
OR UNPLEASANT,
OR SHRILL SOUNDING.
AND THEN, IN THE WAKE OF THAT
2016 ELECTION,
I WAS HAVING TROUBLE FIGURING
OUT WHAT MY RESPONSIBILITY WAS.
"OKAY, WE'RE GOING INTO THIS
TRUMP ADMINISTRATION,
WHAT'S MY WORK HERE?
WHAT'S MY JOB?"
AND I EXPRESSED TO MY HUSBAND IN
CASUAL CONVERSATION,
"I WISH I COULD THINK CLEARLY,
BUT I'M SO ANGRY,
I CAN'T THINK CLEARLY."
I THOUGHT THE ANGER
WAS CLOUDING MY HEAD.
AND HE SAID, VERY CASUALLY,
HE'S NOT A JOURNALIST,
HE SAID, "WELL, MAYBE YOU SHOULD
WRITE ABOUT ANGER."
AND AS SOON AS THE BAREST
SUGGESTION WAS MADE,
SUDDENLY, EVERYTHING CAME
INTO A KIND OF FOCUS.
AND INSTEAD OF BEING
A MUDDYING FORCE,
SUDDENLY, I SAW ANGER AS THIS
VERY CLEAR THREAD,
RUNNING UNDERNEATH SO MUCH
OF THE HISTORY,
THAT I MYSELF, YOU KNOW, HAVE
ONLY RECENTLY LEARNED ABOUT.
IN TERM OF THE CATALYTIC,
THE TRANSFORMATIVE SOCIAL
AND POLITICAL MOVEMENTS THAT
HAVE RESHAPED
THE UNITED STATES AND ITS
HISTORY AND ITS GOVERNMENT.
AND THE POLITICS THAT
I COVER AS A JOURNALIST.
AND I WAS LIKE, "ANGER!"
ANGER IS A CONNECTING THREAD,
BETWEEN PAST, PRESENT,
AND I THINK, MOVING US INTO
THE FUTURE.
AND WHEN IT COMES TO WOMEN,
THERE'S SUCH A STORY THAT HASN'T
BEEN TOLD ABOUT IT.
THAT AFTERNOON IN MY HEAD,
HAD THE OUTLINE OF WHAT THIS
BOOK TURNS OUT TO BE,
EVEN THOUGH, MUCH OF THE MEAT
OF THIS BOOK
HADN'T EVEN HAPPENED YET.
SO... IT WAS BEFORE
THE WOMEN'S MARCH,
IT WAS BEFORE HISTORIC NUMBERS
OF WOMEN RAN FOR OFFICE,
IT WAS BEFORE hashtag METOO MOVEMENT.
AND YET, THE OUTLINES OF WHAT
THIS BOOK WAS GOING TO BE
MADE THEMSELVES CLEAR
IN THAT ONE AFTERNOON.

STEVE SAYS HERE'S AN EXCERPT
FROM THE BOOK...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Fury." The quote reads "Here it was, an anger that was so intense it blazed it way via stupid hats and foul-mouthed tirades, even from the most official and respectable sources –anything to let people know this: Women. Were. Furious. After the election, everything that had been restrained and secret and muffled could no longer be contained beneath a veneer of 'going high,' or venting only to the like minded. 'Of all the feelings that have surfaced since January -sadness, depression, hopelessness, rare bits of joy,' wrote the feminist journalist Samhita Mukhopadhay at the end of 2017, 'the one that has sustained, motivated and sometimes felt like it was destroying me has been anger.'"
Quoted from Rebecca Traister, "Good and mad." 2018.

Steve says WHAT DOES TRUMP REPRESENT TO
WOMEN WHO FEEL AS YOU DO?

A picture shows Trump giving a speech at a political rally in New York, as his family and Mike Pence stand behind him.

Rebecca says WELL, I THINK HE REPRESENTS SO
MUCH THAT IS UNJUST,
ON ONE VERY SYMBOLIC LEVEL.
HAVING WATCHED HIM... AND THIS IS
ESPECIALLY IN THE WAKE
OF THE ANGER THAT HAD ERUPTED
BEFORE HIS ELECTION.
BECAUSE REMEMBER THERE WAS
THE
ACCESS HOLLYWOOD
TAPE,
A MONTH BEFORE HIS ELECTION,
IN WHICH HE WAS RECORDED
BRAGGING ABOUT GRABBING A WOMAN
AGAINST HER WILL.
AND THAT HAD PRODUCED...
WE FORGET ABOUT IT...

STEVE SAYS HE WAS A LITTLE MORE
EXPLICIT THAN THAT, IF I RECALL.

Rebecca says HE WAS MORE EXPLICIT
THAN THAT.
BUT WE FORGET THAT IT PROVOKED A
SORT OF, PRE- hashtag METOO CAMPAIGN.
MILLIONS OF WOMEN TELLING
STORIES,
MANY OF THEM FOR THE FIRST TIME,
ABOUT HOW THEY'D BEEN GROPED
OR ASSAULTED OR HARASSED.
WOMEN WERE FURIOUS.
I REMEMBER FRIENDS OF MINE
WHEELING AROUND
ON THEIR CAT-CALLERS, IN THOSE
WEEKS, BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT
HILLARY CLINTON
WAS GOING TO BE THE PRESIDENT.
WHEELING AROUND AND SAYING
"YOU CAN'T TALK TO ME
THAT WAY ANYMORE!
IT'S GONNA BE A NEW WORLD."
THERE WAS THIS SENSE THAT THERE
WAS THIS TREMENDOUS ANGER
IN ADDITION TO THE ANGER
AT THE RACISM,
THE OPEN RACISM AND XENOPHOBIA
ON WHICH HE RAN,
THE OPEN, YOU KNOW, DISREGARD
FOR WOMEN, FOR PEOPLE OF COLOUR,
HE RAN A FAIRLY GROTESQUE
RHETORICAL CAMPAIGN.
AND THERE WAS THIS SENSE...
AND I THINK MANY PEOPLE ALSO
FELT THAT HE WAS COMPLETELY
UNQUALIFIED FOR THE JOB AT HAND.
AND THERE WAS THIS
OVERCONFIDENCE, AS WE KNOW,
THAT HILLARY CLINTON WAS GOING
TO BEAT HIM HANDILY.
AND WHEN SHE DIDN'T,
IT STOOD IN...
THERE WAS THIS MASSIVE
ELECTORAL RESULT
AND A SURPRISE TO MANY PEOPLE.

STEVE SAYS INCLUDING DONALD TRUMP.

Rebecca says INCLUDING DONALD TRUMP.
AND YET, FOR SO MANY WOMEN,
THIS BIG NEWS STORY WAS SO
FAMILIAR TO THEM,
THE IDEA OF A QUALIFIED...
WHATEVER YOU THOUGHT OF HER,
AN EXTREMELY SMART AND QUALIFIED
PREPARED FEMALE CANDIDATE
FOR A JOB, LOSING THAT JOB
TO A WHOLLY UNQUALIFIED...
TODDLER...

(STEVE CHUCKLING)

A picture shows Hillary Clinton with a grim expression.

Rebecca says WHO'S BEEN REPORTED TO HR,
AND NONETHELESS,
GETS THE PROMOTION,
WAS RECOGNIZABLE
FROM THEIR OWN LIVES.
YOU KNOW, THAT IT WAS LIKE JUST
ANOTHER TUESDAY IN AMERICA.

STEVE SAYS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF
THE UNFAIRNESS OF IT ALL.

Rebecca says AND IT SORT OF HIGHLIGHTED
CERTAIN KINDS OF INJUSTICE.
NOW THEN, ONCE HE WAS IN OFFICE,
THINGS LIKE THE MUSLIM
TRAVEL BAN,
THE IMMIGRATION POLICIES,
THE BANS ON TRANSGENDER PEOPLE
IN THE MILITARY,
THOSE THINGS BEGAN...
DONALD TRUMP'S PRESIDENCY
HAS MADE CLEAR
A LOT OF THINGS THAT WERE
COVERED UP IN THE AMERICAN
RIGHT WING REPUBLICAN PARTY OF
THE PAST COUPLE OF DECADES,
AS IT HAS BEEN MOVING FURTHER
AND FURTHER RIGHT.
I DON'T THINK HE'S SO DISTINCT
FROM THE PARTY
THAT HELPED TO ELECT HIM AND
THAT CONTINUES TO SUPPORT HIM.
I DON'T THINK HE'S THIS, YOU
KNOW, OUTLIER IDEOLOGICALLY.
THE DIFFERENCE IS,
HE SAYS IT ALL OUT LOUD.
BUT IN SAYING IT ALL OUT LOUD,
IT PROVOKES A SORT OF...
THERE'S NO DENIABILITY
IN TERMS OF WHAT
HE'S TRYING TO DO.
AND THAT GIVES PEOPLE PERMISSION
AND SPACE TO BE OPENLY MAD
WITHOUT ANYBODY TELLING THEM
THERE'S NOTHING TO BE MAD AT.

Steve says ANOTHER EXCERPT FROM THE BOOK...

Another quote from the book appears on screen, under the title "Dominion." The quote reads "It is, in fact, an anger on behalf of the nation's supressed majority and therefore especially frightening and combustible because of the threat it poses to the minority. We are primed to hear the anger of men as stirring, downright American, as our national lullaby, and primed to hear the sound of women demanding freedom as the screech of nails on our national chalkboard. That's because women's freedom would in fact circumscribe white male dominion."
Quoted from Rebecca Traister, "Good and mad." 2018.

Steve says WHY DO YOU THINK... I MEAN,
HERE WE ARE IN 2018 ALREADY.
WHY DO YOU THINK THERE HAS NOT
BEEN THE KIND OF PROGRESS
ON THESE ISSUES THAT YOU'D LIKE
TO SEE, SO FAR?

Rebecca says WELL, THE UNITED STATES WAS IN
FACT BUILT ON WHITE PATRIARCHAL
POWER STRUCTURES.
AND IT'S A GREAT IRONY,
BECAUSE IN THE UNITED STATES,
WE FETISHIZE OUR FOUNDING
NARRATIVE, WE ABSOLUTELY...
THIS IS LIKE THE NATIONAL
LULLABY,
THE STORY OF THE FOUNDERS
AND THEIR RIGHTEOUS BREAK
FROM ENGLAND BECAUSE THEY WERE
BEING TAXED
WITHOUT BEING REPRESENTED
IN GOVERNMENT.
AND THE SORT OF PATRIOTIC CALLS
FOR LIBERTY AND EQUALITY,
ARE THE THINGS...
THAT'S LIKE A NATIONAL CATECHISM
IN THE UNITED STATES.
YOU KNOW, THIS IS WHAT WE'RE
FOUNDED ON AS A DEMOCRACY,
A REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY.
BUT IN FACT, THE THING WE TALK
MUCH LESS ABOUT,
OR CERTAINLY NOT TAUGHT CLEARLY
IN SCHOOLS AS YOUNG PEOPLE
IS THAT THE NEW COUNTRY
THAT THEY SET UP
WAS BUILT FROM THE START
OBVIOUSLY ON THE EXCLUSION,
AND THE SUBJUGATION OF MASSES
OF ITS POPULATION.
THE ENSLAVEMENT OF
AFRICAN-AMERICANS,
WRITTEN INTO
THE FOUNDING DOCUMENTS
IS THE FACT THAT THEY'RE NOT
EVEN TREATED AS FULLY HUMAN.
THE LACK OF A FRANCHISE
FOR WOMEN,
ALSO BUILDING AN ECONOMY,
THE GOVERNMENT ON THE LABOUR
OF ENSLAVED PEOPLE AND THE
UNPAID DOMESTIC LABOUR OF WOMEN
AND THAT'S HOW THE COUNTRY
ENRICHED ITSELF.
IT'S HOW IT GAINED
ITS ECONOMIC POWER.
AND ITS LAWS, ITS COURTS,
ITS GOVERNMENT,
ITS ECONOMY IS ALL BUILT
ON THAT.
AND IT'S VERY HARD,
IT'S BEEN 250 YEARS.

STEVE SAYS IT'S 250 YEARS, YOU KNOW.

Rebecca says AND WE HAVE CHIPPED AWAY AT IT.
PEOPLE GOT THE FRANCHISE.
ALTHOUGH, NOTE THAT EVEN THAT
BATTLE IN THE UNITED STATES
IS VERY MUCH AT THE HEART
OF THE HEADLINES
THAT WE ARE READING THIS WEEK.
BECAUSE IT WAS, YOU KNOW,
A 90-YEAR SUFFRAGE BATTLE
FOR WOMEN,
AND THE 19TH AMENDMENT REALLY
COVERED PRIMARILY WHITE WOMEN.
BECAUSE AT THAT POINT,
BLACK WOMEN
AND BLACK MEN
IN THE JIM CROW SOUTH...

STEVE SAYS STILL DISENFRANCHISED.

Rebecca says WERE DISENFRANCHISED.
THEN, IT'S ANOTHER 45 YEARS TO
THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT OF 1965.
WELL, DURING THE OBAMA
ADMINISTRATION,
THE JOHN ROBERTS SUPREME COURT
GUTTED THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT
ENABLING ALL KINDS
OF VOTER SUPPRESSION
THAT YOU'RE SEEING PLAY OUT IN
THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS,
IN STATES LIKE GEORGIA,
AND NORTH DAKOTA AND FLORIDA.
SO, THE FIGHT FOR
ENFRANCHISEMENT IS 250 YEARS OLD
AND IT IS VERY MUCH AT ISSUE IN
TERMS OF WHO GETS TO VOTE,
AND WHO GETS TO HAVE
THEIR VOTES COUNTED.

Steve says WOULDN'T YOU HAVE THOUGHT,
THOUGH, AFTER 250 YEARS,
YOU'D HAVE MADE MORE
PROGRESS BY NOW?

Rebecca says I THINK WHEN YOU BUILD AN ENTIRE
NATION ON THESE INEQUITIES...

STEVE SAYS OKAY, I GET, OKAY...

Rebecca says IT'S HARD TO CHANGE,
BUT WE'RE DOING IT.
WE HAVE MADE A LOT OF PROGRESS.
I DON'T WANT TO DENY THAT.

Steve says I DO NEED TO ASK YOU ABOUT
A COUPLE OF THINGS
THAT HAVE BEEN JUST OVERWHELMING
AMERICAN SOCIETY
FOR THE LAST YEAR.
AND SO, WE'RE JUST GOING TO
TACKLE THEM HEAD-ON HERE.
HARVEY WEINSTEIN.
LOTS OF PEOPLE KNEW ABOUT IT.
YOU HEARD STORIES OVER
THE YEARS.
WHY DID IT TAKE
SO LONG TO STOP HIM?

The caption changes to "Rebecca Traister, @rtraister."

Rebecca says WELL, THERE WAS NOT A LOT OF
EVIDENCE ON HAND
THAT PEOPLE WERE GOING TO CARE.
AND WHEN I SAY THAT,
I MEAN THAT VERY SERIOUSLY.
CHARGES OF SEXUAL HARASSMENT
AGAINST BILL O'REILLY,
FOR EXAMPLE, WERE MADE PUBLIC.
A WOMAN WITH NAME ATTACHED,
CAME FORWARD.
BILL O'REILLY,
NOTHING HAPPENED TO HIM.
HE PAID OFF THE WOMAN
IN A SETTLEMENT.
IT WAS REPORTED,
IT WAS WIDELY REPORTED.
HE KEPT HIS MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR
POWERFUL SEAT AT FOX NEWS
FOR DECADES AFTERWARDS.
BILL COSBY, THE STORIES OF
BILL COSBY'S ALLEGED RAPES
OF MULTIPLE WOMEN WERE PUBLIC...
IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN.
THEY WERE NOT KEPT SECRET.
HE STILL KEPT GETTING LIFETIME
ACHIEVEMENT AWARDS,
HAILED AS A COMEDIC HERO.
NOTHING HAPPENED TO BILL COSBY
FOR A LONG TIME...

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

STEVE SAYS SO, THE CULTURE DOESN'T
CARE ABOUT IT.

Rebecca says DONALD TRUMP WAS ELECTED
PRESIDENT AFTER, RIGHT?
THERE WAS ALL KINDS OF EVIDENCE
THAT SAID,
"WHAT DIFFERENCE WOULD IT MAKE?"
IN ADDITION, THERE WERE ALL
KINDS OF MECHANISMS IN PLACE,
NON-DISCLOSURE AGREEMENTS,
PAYOUTS.
BECAUSE YOU'RE TALKING
IN MANY CASES,
WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT MANY
OF THE MEN
WHO WERE PUBLICLY ACCUSED OF
SEXUAL MISCONDUCT
DURING THE hashtag METOO PERIOD,
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT MEN WHO HAD
IMMENSE POWER OVER THE CAREERS,
NOT JUST OVER OF THE PEOPLE
THAT THEY ALLEGEDLY HARASSED,
BUT PEOPLE WHO WERE INVESTED IN
THEM MAINTAINING THEIR JOBS,
BECAUSE THEY WERE
ECONOMICALLY DEPENDANT ON THEM,
PROFESSIONALLY DEPENDANT
ON THEM.

Steve says OKAY, SO, THAT'S WHY IT TOOK
SO LONG. WHAT FINALLY BROUGHT IT TO AN END?

Rebecca says WELL, I THINK THERE WAS A MASS
LEVEL OF BOILING FURY,
AND WE HAD SEEN IT IN THESE
OTHER ITERATIONS,
THE WOMEN'S MARCH,
THAT WAS THE SINGLE...
THE BIGGEST SINGLE DAY
POLITICAL PROTEST
IN UNITED STATES HISTORY,
UM, RECORD NUMBERS,
TENS OF THOUSANDS OF WOMEN
SIGNING UP TO RUN FOR OFFICE,
TEACHERS' STRIKES.
THERE WERE INDICATIONS THAT
WOMEN WERE SO ANGRY
AND SO MANY WOMEN WERE SO ANGRY,
THAT THERE WAS THIS KIND OF
BOILING OVER POINT,
AND I THINK THAT THAT HAPPENED
TO HIT AT THE MOMENT THAT
FINALLY, REPORTERS WERE ABLE TO
TELL THE STORY OF
HARVEY WEINSTEIN,
AND ONCE THAT HIT,
I WAS SHOCKED BY THE REACTION.
I HAD KNOWN THE WEINSTEIN
STORIES FOR YEARS,
I HAD KNOWN THE IMPOSSIBILITY OF
REPORTING THEM.
I TRIED TO HELP
OTHER REPORTERS DO IT.
WHEN IT WAS FINALLY TOLD...

Steve says THE DAM BURST.

Rebecca says IT WAS...
IT WAS A HOT MATCH TO,
YOU KNOW, A BUNCH OF TINDER.
WOMEN WERE SO LIVID AT WHAT HAD
BECOME SO CLEAR
TO SO MANY OF THEM,
AND HERE WAS THIS STORY,
NOT ONLY OF GROTESQUE
AND VIOLENT BEHAVIOUR
AND MISCONDUCT, BUT OF THE FACT
THAT FOR YEARS HE'D BEEN
GETTING AWAY WITH IT, BEING
REWARDED FOR IT IN MANY CASES,
AND IT JUST CREATED
A CONFLAGRATION,
AND THEN IT BECAME...
OTHER PEOPLE...
THE INTENSITY OF THE ANGER
AND THE INTEREST THAT IT DREW
PERMITTED OTHER PEOPLE TO TELL
OTHER STORIES ABOUT
OTHER HARASSERS AND PREDATORS,
AND THEN IT BECAME THE STORY OF
HOW COMMON THIS BEHAVIOUR WAS.
SO, IT CREATED WAVES.
AND, BY THE WAY,
THE MOST INTENSE PERIOD OF THAT
WAS THE FALL OF 2017,
BUT IT CONTINUES A YEAR LATER.
YOU KNOW, THE GROTESQUE STORIES
ABOUT THE CBS CHIEF LES MOONVES,
THOSE WERE PUBLISHED JUST
SIX WEEKS AGO, EIGHT WEEKS AGO?
STORIES ABOUT SEXUAL MISCONDUCT
AT GOOGLE BEING SORT OF REWARDED
WITH MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR
PAYOFFS FOR THOSE
ALLEGED OF BAD...
ALLEGED TO BE BADLY BEHAVED.
THESE STORIES ARE STILL COMING.
I DON'T THINK ME TOO IS OVER,
THOUGH THE MOST INTENSE PERIOD
WAS CERTAINLY LAST FALL.

Steve says WELL, LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THE
SECOND THING THAT WAS
VERY DOMINANT AND OVERWHELMING
MORE RECENTLY,
AND THAT IS, OF COURSE,
THE SUPREME COURT HEARINGS
INTO BRETT KAVANAUGH.
I DON'T KNOW TOO MANY,
I WAS ABOUT TO SAY,
I DON'T KNOW TOO MANY PEOPLE,
I'M NOT SURE I KNOW ANYBODY
WHO DIDN'T WANT SOME OF
THAT AT LEAST.
HOW DID THAT CONTRIBUTE TO THE
CURRENT CLIMATE OF ANGER
THAT YOU SEE RIGHT NOW?

Rebecca says WELL, I THINK IT PROBABLY
WOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED
IF WE HADN'T HAD
THE TWO YEARS PRECEDING.
THERE WERE A VERY DISTINCT SET
OF CIRCUMSTANCES THAT PERMITTED,
FOR EXAMPLE,
CHRISTINE BLASEY FORD TO THINK
THAT IT MIGHT BE WORTH REACHING
TO HER REPRESENTATIVE,
AND TELLING HER ABOUT HER
EXPERIENCE.
THERE WERE A DISTINCT SET OF
CIRCUMSTANCES THAT LED REPORTERS
TO SAY, "HEY, THIS IS AN
IMPORTANT RELEVANT FACT."
THERE WAS A DISTINCT SET OF
CIRCUMSTANCES THAT LED,
FOR EXAMPLE, MAZIE HIRONO,
THE SENATOR FROM HAWAII
WHO WAS ON THE SENATE
JUDICIARY COMMITTEE,
TO HAVE BEEN ASKING ALL
JUDICIARY NOMINEES
OVER THE PAST...
OVER THE PREVIOUS YEAR
WHETHER THEY'D EVER
HARASSED ANYONE.
THE QUESTION OF WHETHER A
POWERFUL FIGURE HAD PARTICIPATED
IN HARASSMENT OR ASSAULT WAS ONE
THAT SEEMED RELEVANT IN A WAY
THAT, AGAIN, IT HADN'T EVER
SEEMED TO BE RELEVANT
PREVIOUSLY, AND, IN FACT,
THE ONE EXAMPLE THAT WE HAD OF
EXACTLY THIS, CLARENCE THOMAS
BEING, UM, PUBLICLY ACCUSED OF
SEXUALLY HARASSING ANITA HILL IN
1991 DURING HIS CONFIRMATION
HEARINGS FOR THE SUPREME COURT,
AGAIN, LIKE TRUMP, HE'D GOTTEN
ON THE COURT ANYWAY AND HAS
SHAPED LAW THERE EVER SINCE.
SO, THERE WASN'T EVIDENCE THAT
THIS SHOULD BE...
THAT THIS WOULD NECESSARILY STOP
THE FURTHER ACCRUAL OF POWER
BY A JUDGE, EXCEPT THAT
THE CLIMATE HAD CONTRIBUTED TO
THE FACT THAT REPORTERS WERE
TAKING IT SERIOUSLY ENOUGH TO
REPORT ON, AND THEN IT BECAME
A QUESTION OF
WHETHER THERE WOULD BE HEARINGS.

Steve says OKAY, LET'S GO BACK TO PARTISAN
POLITICS HERE,
AND I DO WANT TO TALK ABOUT
HILLARY CLINTON,
BECAUSE YOU CAN'T TALK ABOUT
THIS WITHOUT TALKING ABOUT
SOME OF THE DOUBLE STANDARDS
THAT EXISTED DURING THE COURSE
OF THAT 2016 PRESIDENTIAL
CAMPAIGN.
TO BE SURE, SHE WAS NOT
A PERFECT CANDIDATE.

Rebecca says NOPE.

In a picture, Hillary Clinton gives a speech at a political rally standing behind a lectern that reads "Fighting for us."

Steve says TO BE SURE, SHE GAVE
A SPEECH AT GOLDMAN SACHS
FOR A QUARTER OF A MILLION
DOLLARS, AND THEN TRIED TO
PORTRAY HERSELF AS A CHAMPION OF
THE LITTLE GUY
AGAINST WALL STREET, WHICH IS A
PRETTY HARD THING TO DO.
SHE DIDN'T CAMPAIGN BEHIND
THE BIG BLUE FORTRESS
IN SOME OF THOSE STATES WHICH
SHE ENDED UP LOSING.
UH, YOU KNOW, AN ESTABLISHMENT
CANDIDATE IN THE YEAR OF
DISRUPTION
AND ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT FERVOR.
IS IT FAIR TO BLAME HER
DEFEAT ON MISOGYNY?

The caption changes to "Angels of rage."

Rebecca says I DON'T THINK IT'S A QUESTION.
I DON'T THINK ANY, SORT OF,
MONO-CAUSAL EXPLANATION
FOR WHAT HAPPENED IN 2016 IS
GONNA GET US VERY FAR.
THERE ARE SO MANY FACTORS
CONTRIBUTING.
UM, TO THE DEGREE THAT I COVER
WOMEN IN POLITICS,
THE PARTICULAR THING THAT
I WRITE ABOUT VERY OFTEN WITH
HILLARY CLINTON, AND I'VE
COVERED HER FOR MANY YEARS,
IS THE DEGREE TO WHICH, UM,
GENDER AND MISOGYNY,
NOT ONLY, IT'S NOT JUST
A QUESTION OF BLAME,
HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO SHAPING
WHO SHE IS.
HER CAREER, HER LIFE,
HER MARRIAGE,
HER PUBLIC PERSONA,
THE RANGE OF EXPRESSIONS
SHE HAD AVAILABLE TO HER,
RHETORICALLY, AS A POLITICIAN.
ALL THAT STUFF.
IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO DISENTANGLE
IT FROM GENDER, UM,
AND SO THAT'S PART OF WHAT
I LOOK AT,
BUT I WOULD NEVER GO SO FAR
AS TO SAY SHE LOST
BECAUSE OF SEXISM.
SHE LOST FOR ALL KINDS OF
REASONS THAT ARE TIED TO
THE ONES YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

Steve says SO, TELL ME THIS, IN THE MIDDLE
OF THAT PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE,
WHEN TRUMP WAS KIND OF...
WHAT'S THE...
LURKING BEHIND HER.

Rebecca says YES, MENACING.
PAWING THE GROUNDS.
YEAH.
SNORTING, YES.

Steve says YEAH, AND SHE HAD TO MAKE
A DECISION,
"DO I CALL HIM ON IT,
AND TURN AROUND,
AND, YOU KNOW, BUST HIS CHOPS
FOR IT?
OR DO I JUST KEEP CALM
AND CARRY ON?"

Rebecca says SHE CHOSE THE LATTER.
WHAT SHOULD SHE HAVE DONE?
WELL, I THINK SHE CHOSE
CORRECTLY.
I MEAN, THIS, LET ME,
TO PUT NO FINER A POINT ON IT,
IT SUCKS THAT THESE ARE
THE OPTIONS AVAILABLE, UM,
BECAUSE, YEAH, WE LIKE TO THINK
THAT WE'RE THE, THE KIND OF
PUBLIC THAT WOULD SEE THAT
AND SAY, "YES, YOU GO!"
BUT THE FACT IS LET'S TRY TO
IMAGINE IF THAT HAD HAPPENED,
AND SHE DOES,
SHE SECOND GUESSES IT NOW.
IN HER OWN BOOK SHE DOES.
IN HER OWN BOOK,
AND SHE DESCRIBED TO ME IN
AN INTERVIEW AFTERWARDS,
HOW MUCH MATH SHE WAS DOING
IN HER OWN HEAD.
"DO I TURN AROUND
AND SAY GET AWAY FROM ME?
DO I NOT? IS IT GONNA..."
AND SHE SAYS IT'S GONNA
REDOUND NEGATIVELY TO ME.
NOW, LATER, SHE SAYS,
"OH, MAYBE I SHOULD HAVE
DONE IT."
LET'S IMAGINE THAT SHE'D TURNED
AROUND ON HIM,
AND SAID, "GET AWAY FROM ME!"
WE WOULD LIKE TO THINK
IN RETROSPECT, BECAUSE WE ALWAYS
FLATTER OURSELVES,
THAT WE WOULD HAVE SAID,
"YOU GO! WAY TO GO!"
BUT LET'S BE REAL ABOUT WHAT
WOULD HAVE HAPPENED.
"WAS HILLARY CLINTON PLAYING
THE GENDER CARD?
WAS SHE BEHAVING LIKE A VICTIM?
WAS SHE TRYING TO TURN...
DID SHE FEEL LIKE SHE WASN'T
DOING WELL IN THE DEBATE AND HAD
TO TURN IT INTO A DEFENSIVE..."
YOU KNOW, THERE WOULD HAVE
BEEN A...

Steve says SHE COULDN'T WIN.

Rebecca says THERE WAS NO WAY THAT THAT WAS
GONNA COME OFF WELL.
I THINK SHE CHOSE CORRECTLY.
IT'S TOO BAD.
JUST AS IT IS TOO BAD THAT
CHRISTINE BLASEY FORD
COULD NOT HAVE RAISED
HER VOICE IN ANGER,
THAT THERE ARE THESE...
AND BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY.

Steve says I'M SURPRISED BY YOUR ANSWER,
I GOTTA TELL YOU.
YOU'VE WRITTEN A BOOK CALLED
GOOD AND MAD.
IN SOME RESPECTS, YOU WANT,
YOU WANT NORTH AMERICAN WOMAN,
YOU WANT WOMEN WORLDWIDE TO
START TO DEMONSTRABLY
INDICATE THAT THEY HAVE
HAD ENOUGH,
AND YET, HERE'S THIS MOMENT,
IN FACT THE WHOLE PRESIDENCY
MIGHT HAVE RESTED ON THIS ONE
MOMENT IN THE DEBATE WHERE
SOME PEOPLE WERE LOOKING AT
HILLARY CLINTON,
AND SAID, "NOW'S YOUR MOMENT,
NOT TO BE CALCULATING.
NOW'S YOUR MOMENT TO SHOW SOME
RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION
TO THE, TO WHAT YOU'RE
EXPERIENCING."
AND SHE DIDN'T,
AND YOU'RE OKAY WITH THAT.

Rebecca says WELL, "OKAY WITH THAT,"
IT'S THE SYSTEM IN WHICH,
IN WHICH WE LIVE, BUT... I'M NOT,
BUT WHAT I SAID WAS,
"IT SUCKS."
THIS IS... SO THE BOOK IS NOT
ADVOCATING,
I WANT TO BE REALLY CLEAR,
'CAUSE I THINK THERE'S
THE ASSUMPTION THAT WHAT
THE BOOK IS SAYING IS, LIKE,
"GIVE 'EM HELL! RAGE ON!,"
RIGHT?
IT'S NOT... NO, NO, NO.

STEVE SAYS YOU'RE JUST DESCRIBING
WHAT'S THERE.

Rebecca says RIGHT, BUT TO THE DEGREE THAT
THERE IS ANYTHING PRESCRIPTIVE.
IT'S ACTUALLY NOT ABOUT THE
EXPRESSION OF ANGER.
IT'S NOT ABOUT RAISE
YOUR VOICE LOUDER,
OR, YOU KNOW, TO HELL WITH THIS
SYSTEM THAT TELLS YOU YOU HAVE
TO BE POLITE OR SOLICITOUS,
LIKE, YOU KNOW, GET MAD.
IT'S ABOUT, TO THE DEGREE THAT
IT'S PRESCRIPTIVE,
IT'S ABOUT, LET'S LISTEN FOR
WOMEN'S ANGER DIFFERENTLY,
AND START TO VALUE IT
DIFFERENTLY,
BECAUSE THE FACT IS WOMEN ARE
OPERATING IN WORLDS IN WHICH
THEIR ANGER UNDERMINES
THEIR POINT.
IN WHICH HAD HILLARY CLINTON
WHIRLED AROUND ON
DONALD TRUMP, SHE WOULD HAVE
PAID A POLITICAL PRICE,
IN WHICH...

Steve says SO, UNFAIRLY UNDERMINES
THEIR ANGER.

Rebecca says YES! THE... PART OF WHAT THE BOOK
DOES IS OUTLINE THE WAY IN WHICH
A POWER SYSTEM IN WHICH THOSE IN
POWER, IN WHICH THE WAY OUR
UM, EXPECTATIONS OF, OF FEMALE
EXPRESSION HAVE BEEN ALIGNED,
CONDEMN WOMEN FOR SHOWING ANGER
WHERE THERE IS REAL RISK,
AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
HILLARY CLINTON OR
CHRISTINE BLASEY FORD,
IF YOU'RE A WOMAN OF COLOUR IN
THE UNITED STATES, AND YOU'RE,
SAY, PULLED OVER FOR NO REASON,
YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO BE
BLAZING MAD,
BUT IF YOU GET MAD AT THAT
ARRESTING OFFICER,
YOU RUN THE RISK OF
INCARCERATION, ARREST,
BEING SHOT,
THERE ARE REAL TOLLS.
YOU CAN BE MAD IN YOUR OFFICE
ABOUT SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN
INCREDIBLY UNJUST, AND YOU HAVE
EVERY REASON TO BE MAD,
BUT IF YOU SCREAM BACK
AT YOUR BOSS,
THE REPUTATION YOU CAN
GET IS AS DIFFICULT.
YOU MIGHT NOT GET
YOUR PROMOTION,
YOU MIGHT LOSE YOUR JOB.
SO, I DON'T WANT TO GO OUT
AND ADVOCATE TO ANYBODY,
LIKE, GO GET MAD,
WHAT I WANT TO DO IS SAY,
"LOOK, THERE IS A SYSTEM OUT
THERE THAT PENALIZES
WOMEN UNFAIRLY, DOESN'T TAKE
THEIR RAGE SERIOUSLY,
ASSUMES IT TO BE IRRATIONAL,
AND WE NEED TO ALTER
THAT SYSTEM."
HOW DO WE DO THAT?
IT'S NOT BY EXPRESSING OURSELVES
DIFFERENTLY,
IT'S ABOUT LISTENING FOR THE
PEOPLE AROUND US
WHO ARE EXPRESSING THEMSELVES
AND NOT BEING TAKEN SERIOUSLY.
SO, IT'S REALLY,
THIS IS A BOOK ABOUT...

Steve says THE MESSAGE IS LESS TO
THE WOMEN, AND MORE TO THE,
TO THE OTHER PEOPLE.

Rebecca says WELL, IT'S TO WOMEN TO LISTEN TO
OTHER WOMEN.
IT'S TO EVERYBODY,
TO SAY "LOOK AT HOW THIS WORKS,"
OR EVEN IDENTIFY THOSE PATTERNS.
CONSIDER WHY IT WAS THAT
HILLARY CLINTON COULDN'T
TURN AROUND ON DONALD TRUMP.

Steve says AND YET, TELL ME, OKAY,
I HEAR YOU THERE.
TELL ME THIS, THOUGH,
DONALD TRUMP GOT THE MAJORITY
OF VOTES FROM WHITE WOMEN.

Rebecca says YES, YES HE DID.

Steve says THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A WHITE
WOMAN MORE QUALIFIED TO BE
PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
THAN HILLARY CLINTON,
AND SHE DIDN'T GET THE MAJORITY
OF VOTES FROM PEOPLE
WHO WERE LIKE HER.

Rebecca says RIGHT.

Steve says EXPLAIN THAT TO ME.

Rebecca says WELL, WOMEN HAVE NEVER VOTED AS
A COHESIVE BLOCK.
EVER IN THE HISTORY OF
WOMEN VOTING,
AND, IN FACT, ONE OF THE KEY
THINGS THAT WE HAVE TO
ACKNOWLEDGE WHEN WE TALK ABOUT
WOMEN AS A BLOCK,
IS THE WAY THAT...

Steve says OF COURSE, MORE DIVERSE THAN...

Rebecca says MORE DIVERSE, BUT NOT ONLY THAT,
THE WAY THAT,
I MEAN, I MENTIONED EARLIER THAT
THE UNITED STATES
IS BUILT AROUND WHITE
PATRIARCHAL POWER STRUCTURES.
WELL, NOT ONLY IS THE PATRIARCHY
PART IMPORTANT THERE,
THE WHITE IS IMPORTANT THERE,
AND WHITE WOMEN
HAVE ALWAYS VOTED CONSERVATIVELY.
SINCE WE'VE BEEN TRACKING THESE
THINGS, WHICH IS 1952,
WHITE WOMAN HAVE VOTED FOR
REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES,
THE MAJORITY OF THEM HAVE VOTED,
HAVE SUPPORTED REPUBLICAN
CANDIDATES IN ALL BUT TWO
ELECTIONS, '92 AND '96.
'92 THEY VOTED FOR BILL CLINTON.
BILL CLINTON RAN ON A VERY
RACIALLY CHARGED,
TOUGH ON CRIME
CAMPAIGN PLATFORM.
HE LEFT THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL
TO GO EXECUTE RICKY RAY RECTOR,
AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN MAN
IN ARKANSAS, UM, WHO HAD
SUSTAINED AN INJURY AND HAD,
AND HAD, UM, DISABILITIES.
WHITE WOMEN VOTED FOR
BILL CLINTON.
THEN THE ONLY REASON THAT
A MAJORITY,
'96 IS MORE CONFUSING,
BECAUSE A PERCENTAGE
OF WHITE WOMEN VOTED FOR
ROSS PEROT,
WHO WAS A THIRD-PARTY CANDIDATE,
BUT EVEN BEFORE 1952,
A LOT OF THE ARGUMENTS FOR
WOMEN'S SUFFRAGE, UM,
DURING THE SUFFRAGE MOVEMENT OF
THE LATE 19TH,
EARLY 20TH CENTURY,
WERE BASED ON THE IDEA THAT
WHITE WOMEN WOULD CANCEL OUT THE
VOTES OF AFRICAN-AMERICAN MEN
WHO HAD BEEN ENFRANCHISED AFTER
EMANCIPATION.
SO, THE IDEA THAT WHITE WOMEN
WOULD NOT OPERATE ALONGSIDE
THEIR SISTERS OF OTHER RACES,
OR ON BEHALF OF WOMEN
AND WOMEN'S RIGHT, BUT INSTEAD
SUPPORT WHITE MALE POWER,
HAS BEEN LONG ENTRENCHED,
THIS HAS ALWAYS BEEN ONE OF
THE IDEAS BEHIND, UM,
THE QUESTION OF,
OF THE ENFRANCHISEMENT OF
WHITE WOMEN.

Steve says ARE YOU SAYING THEY'RE VOTING
AGAINST THEIR OWN SELF-INTEREST
BY DOING THAT?

Rebecca says WELL, IN ONE SENSE THEY ARE
IN THAT, YES,
PATRIARCHY OPPRESSES THEM,
AND EVEN CHRISTINE BLASEY FORD
IS A GREAT EXAMPLE OF EVEN,
YOU KNOW, WHITE WOMEN
WHO ARE THEORETICALLY PROTECTED
WITHIN WHITE PATRIARCHY
AND ENJOY WHITE SUPREMACY, WELL,
THEY'RE STILL NOT BELIEVED,
THEY'RE OFTEN HARASSED.
THIS IS ALSO TRUE OF THE MANY
VERY WEALTHY, PRIVILEGED
WHITE WOMEN WHO ACCUSED
HARVEY WEINSTEIN AND OTHERS.
HOWEVER, WHITE SUPREMACY
IS IN THEIR OWN INTEREST.
THERE IS, I MEAN, A LOT OF,
A LOT OF, AND WE CAN'T PRETEND
THAT THAT'S NOT IN PLAY WHEN WE
TALK ABOUT HOW WHITE WOMEN VOTE.
NOW, INTERESTINGLY,
IN THE MIDTERMS,
THE FIRST NUMBERS WERE REALLY
GRIM ON WHITE WOMEN VOTING,
AND I'M STILL GETTING A LOT OF
THE NUMBERS,
IT DOES LOOK AS THOUGH
WHITE SUBURBAN WOMEN
MOVED PRETTY SHARPLY TOWARD
THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE
DURING THESE MIDTERM ELECTIONS.

Steve says I WANT TO TALK, FOR A MOMENT,
NOT A ABOUT WHITE WOMAN,
BUT AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMAN.

Rebecca says YES.

Steve says MICHELLE OBAMA.
HAVE YOU EVER MET HER?

Rebecca says YES, I HAVE.

Steve says YES?

Rebecca says I HAVE. VERY EARLY IN 2007
I GOT TO PROFILE HER WHEN SHE
WAS CAMPAIGNING IN IOWA.

A picture pops up of the cover of the National Review magazine, with a portrait of an angry Michelle Obama and the title "Mrs. Grievance."

Steve says THERE'S THE COVER OF THE
NATIONAL REVIEW, WHICH IS
A CONSERVATIVE PUBLICATION,
AND IT'S CALLED, WELL,
THERE'S THE HEADLINE,
MRS. GRIEVANCE.
WHAT WAS THE STORY BEHIND
ALL OF THAT?

Rebecca says HM, WELL, IN TERMS OF HOW
WOMEN'S ANGER IS PENALIZED,
ALMOST NO ONE'S ANGER IS
AS PENALIZED AS BLACK WOMEN'S
ANGER IN THE UNITED STATES,
AND A LOT OF BLACK WOMEN TALK
ABOUT THE PRESUMPTION,
THE CARICATURE OF ANGRY
BLACK WOMANHOOD IS SO INTENSE,
AND SO PERVASIVE, THAT LOTS OF
BLACK WOMEN TALK ABOUT
THE ASSUMPTION THAT THEY'RE
ANGRY WHEN THEY WALK
INTO THE ROOM, WHETHER THEY'VE
EVEN OPENED THEIR MOUTHS.
UM, THERE IS A WAY IN WHICH
BLACK WOMEN'S ANGER IS MADE
INTO A CARTOON,
A KIND OF ENTERTAINMENT OF
A NECK SNAPPING SIDE-EYE CASTING
BLACK WOMAN.
OFTEN, WHITE WOMEN TURN TO THOSE
KINDS OF MEMES AND GIFS
ON SOCIAL MEDIA, FOR EXAMPLE,
YOU KNOW, A BEYONCÉ GIF
OR MAXINE WATERS LOOKING OVER
HER GLASSES TO EXPRESS
THEIR OWN ANGER,
WHICH IS INTERESTING.
I WRITE ABOUT THIS IN THE BOOK.
IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE
THE WHITE WOMEN AREN'T PUTTING
THEMSELVES ON THE LINE
BY SAYING, "I'M ANGRY."
THEY'RE USING THE EXPRESSION OF
A BLACK WOMAN TO CONVEY
THEIR ANGER,
AND IT'S THE BLACK WOMAN WHO
GETS PENALIZED, AS MAXINE WATERS
HAS BEEN, FOR INSTANCE,
BUT THIS IS PART OF WHAT...

Steve says THIS IS, WE SHOULD JUST SAY,
SHE'S A CALIFORNIA CONGRESS
WOMAN FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW.

Rebecca says I'M SORRY, CALIFORNIA CONGRESS
WOMAN, MAXINE WATERS, HAS BEEN,
BUT THIS IS ONE OF THE THINGS
THAT HAPPENED TO MICHELLE OBAMA.
WHEN SHE'S ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL
IN 2007, 2008,
SHE IS CHARISMATIC, WARM,
I MEAN, MICHELLE OBAMA,
ONE OF THE WARMEST, FUNNIEST,
UM, FRANKEST, FIRST LADIES
WE COULD POSSIBLY THINK OF,
AND SHE WAS VERY WARM
AND LOVING, OBVIOUSLY TOWARDS
HER HUSBAND, BUT SHE SORT OF
MADE SOME CUTTING REMARKS
ABOUT HIM.
FUNNY, RIBBING HIM ABOUT
BEING SNOREY, AND STINKY,
AND SOMEDAY HE'LL...

Steve says HE'S STILL GOT TO TAKE OUT
THE GARBAGE.

Rebecca says YES, EXACTLY, AND IT WASN'T JUST
THE RIGHT WING MEDIA.
MAUREEN DOWD, A COLUMNIST IN
THE NEW YORK TIMES,
WENT AFTER HER FOR BEING
EMASCULATING.
THAT WAS AT THE VERY BEGINNING.
AND THEN, WHILE ON
THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL,
I BELIEVE IT WAS AFTER
HE WON IOWA,
SHE MADE WHAT I THOUGHT AS
THOUGHT OF AS A VERY
FORWARD-LOOKING, WARM COMMENT,
SAYING,
"THIS IS ONE OF THE FIRST TIMES
I'M PROUD OF MY COUNTRY."
IN TERMS OF MAKING THAT
KIND OF PROGRESS,
WE WERE TALKING ABOUT EARLIER,
HERE...

Steve says SHE GOT CLOBBERED FOR THAT.

Rebecca says SHE WAS CHARACTERIZED
INSTANTANEOUSLY,
AS THE ANGRY BLACK WOMAN.
YOU CAN SEE FROM THAT
NATIONAL REVIEW COVER.
SHE WAS ON LOTS OF MAGAZINE
COVERS,
AND SHE RARELY MADE ANGRY FACES,
THAT WAS PROBABLY HER MAKING
A JOKE, RIGHT?
WHENEVER THAT PHOTO WAS TAKEN.
SHE WAS NOT AN ANGRY PERSONA
AT ALL, BUT PICTURES OF HER
WITH HER MOUTH OPEN,
HER BROWS KNIT, UM,
THERE WERE OTHER HEADLINES,
"WHY IS MICHELLE OBAMA SO
ANGRY?"
AND THIS IS THE OTHER THING THAT
HAPPENS TO BLACK WOMEN
IF THEY ARE ANGRY, ESPECIALLY IF
THEY'RE IN A POSITION THAT
THREATENS WHITENESS,
OR WHITE MEN,
AND HERE'S MICHELLE OBAMA,
ABOUT TO BECOME
THE FIRST BLACK WOMAN TO MOVE
INTO THE WHITE HOUSE,
SHE WAS CERTAINLY IN A POSITION
THAT WAS THREATENING A HISTORY
OF WHITENESS IN THAT
WHITE HOUSE, RIGHT?
AND, AND SHE, THE WAY IN WHICH
SHE WAS TURNED INTO
A THREATENING CARTOON.
SHE WAS ON THE COVER OF
THE NEW YORKER, LITERALLY,
THE NEW YORKER MAGAZINE,
LITERALLY AS A CARTOON OF
A BLACK POWER ADVOCATE.

A picture of said cover appears. In the caricature, Michelle Obama wears an afro and has a machine gun. She bumps fists with Barack Obama inside the oval room. Barack wears a beige robe and a taqiyah.

Rebecca says UM, AFTER, I BELIEVE, THE NIGHT
HE CLINCHED THE NOMINATION,
THEY DAPPED, THERE WAS A DAP,
A, YOU KNOW, THEY FIST BUMPED.

Steve says THE TERRORIST FIST BUMP.

Rebecca says THE TERRORIST FIST JAB,
AS IT WAS CALLED.
SO, AND YOU CAN SEE...

Steve says IN FAIRNESS, ONLY ON FOX.

Rebecca says ONLY ON FOX, BUT THIS IS,
THIS IS VERY AKIN
TO HOW THE ANGER OF MARGI...
AND, AGAIN, WITH MICHELLE OBAMA,
IT WASN'T EVEN ANGER,
BUT IT'S, THAT'S...
ANGER IS SO USEFUL IN
DAMAGING VULNERABLE PEOPLE,
BY SAYING,
"OH, THEY'RE ANGRY,
AND THEREFORE DANGEROUS."
I MEAN, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT
SEEMS COMPLETELY UNRELATED,
BLACK LIVES MATTER,
A GROUP, A PEACEFUL GROUP
BORN OUT OF ANGER AT POLICE
KILLINGS OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS,
ARE CHARACTERIZED ALSO,
ON FOX VERY OFTEN,
AS A TERRORIST GROUP, AS A MOB,
AS THUGS.
MEGHAN MCCAIN, THE DAUGHTER OF
ARIZONA SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN,
ONCE CALLED THEM A HATE GROUP.
THE WAY IN WHICH ANGER,
OFTEN ANGER AT INEQUITY
OR INJUSTICE, IS CHARACTERIZED
ITSELF AS DISRUPTIVE,
CHAOTIC, AGGRESSIVE,
DANGEROUS, THREATENING,
AND, AND THAT'S...
MICHELLE OBAMA, AND, IN FACT,
THE WAY THAT MANY BLACK WOMEN,
POWERFUL BLACK WOMEN,
ARE TREATED AS THREATENING,
MILITANT FORCES
IS A GREAT EXAMPLE OF THAT.

Steve says WELL, LET ME FOLLOW UP WITH
ANOTHER ANGLE ON FOX NEWS,
WHICH IS, THERE ARE LOTS OF
ANGRY WOMEN ON FOX.
JUDGE JEANINE PIRRO,
LAURA INGRAM,
ELISABETH HASSELBECK.
DO YOU RESPECT THEIR ANGER,
AS WELL?

Pictures flash by of said women.

Steve says THEY'RE ANGRY ABOUT DIFFERENT
THINGS THAN YOU ARE,
BUT THEY'RE ANGRY.

Rebecca says HERE'S WHAT I WOULD SAY,
I DISAGREE WITH
THEIR ANGER ENTIRELY.
HERE'S THE DEGREE TO WHICH
I RESPECT IT
IS TO SAY THAT IT IS POTENT.
THOSE, I MEAN, THAT IS...
WOMEN'S ANGER IS NOT
ALWAYS PROGRESSIVE.
WE SPOKE EARLIER ABOUT
WHITE WOMEN WHO HAVE,
HISTORICALLY, SUPPORTED
CONSERVATIVE AND WHITE
PATRIARCHAL POLITICS,
AND POWER STRUCTURES, UM...
WHITE WOMEN ARE VERY OFTEN ANGRY
ON BEHALF OF A WHITE PATRIARCHY
IN A WAY IN WHICH, WHICH IS
VERY, VERY POWERFUL.
YOU CAN LOOK BACK FURTHER TO
PHYLLIS SCHLAFLY,
WHO LED AN ARMY OF WHITE WOMEN
IN THE 1980'S
AGAINST THE RATIFICATION OF
THE EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT.
IT HAD GOTTEN THROUGH CONGRESS
WITH BIPARTISAN SUPPORT.
IT NEEDED TO BE RATIFIED IN
A CERTAIN NUMBER OF STATES,
AND PHYLLIS SCHLAFLY MARSHALLED
THE FORCES OF
CONSERVATIVE WHITE WOMEN IN
THE UNITED STATES
TO FIGHT BACK AGAINST
THE RATIFICATION OF THAT ERA,

Steve says AND SHE WON.

Rebecca says SHE WON, YUP.
SO, TO SAY, NO, DO I RESPECT IT
IDEOLOGICALLY?
NOT IN THE LEAST. I COULDN'T BE
MORE OPPOSED TO IT.
THE ANGER OF SARAH PALIN,
THE FORMER VICE PRESIDENTIAL
CANDIDATE IN 2008,
SHE WOULD GO ON IN 2010 TO HELP
LEAD THE CHARGE OF THE FAR RIGHT
TEA PARTY IN THE UNITED STATES,
UNDER THE... YOU KNOW, SHE CALLED
HERSELF A "MAMA GRIZZLY,"
SHE TOOK... AND, IN FACT,
ONE OF THE WAYS IN WHICH
WHITE WOMEN'S ANGER IS OFTEN
CELEBRATED CULTURALLY
IS IF IT IS ON BEHALF OF
A WHITE PATRIARCHY,
NOT CHALLENGING IT,
AND OF COURSE,
SARAH PALIN, WORKING ON BEHALF
OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY,
WAS DOING JUST THAT.

Steve says I WANT TO GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE,
THOUGH, OF A BLACK WOMAN,
WHO RECENTLY GOT ANGRY IN PUBLIC
BIG TIME, AND SEEMED TO HAVE
A LOT OF SUPPORT BEHIND HER.
SERENA WILLIAMS,
AT THE US OPEN TENNIS
CHAMPIONSHIPS.
THE UMPIRES MADE A CALL THAT WAS
CONTROVERSIAL,
LET'S PUT IT THAT WAY,
AND SHE REACTED WITH
IRE, TOTAL IRE,
AND THE PUBLIC WAS WITH HER.
WHAT DO YOU INFER FROM THAT?

In a picture, the angered Serena Williams points at a male umpire in his fifties who holds up a palm gesturing her to stop.

Rebecca says WELL, THE PUBLIC WAS WITH HER...
(CHUCKLING)
IT'S INTERESTING THAT YOU SEE
THAT AS THE PUBLIC HAVING BEEN
WITH HER, THAT'S FASCINATING.

Steve says YOU DON'T THINK THEY WERE?

Rebecca says WELL, THE, AT THE MATCH THEY
WERE, THE CROWD WAS WITH HER.
CERTAINLY,
THEY WERE CHEERING HER.
AND I THINK, BY THE WAY,
THAT IN PART THAT IS ALSO
A PRODUCT OF THE MOMENT.
I THINK THERE WAS SUCH
A HYPER-AWARENESS OF
THE DYNAMICS THAT WERE IN PLAY
ON THAT NIGHT, THAT THE FACT
THAT WE HAVE HAD A ROBUST
CONVERSATION ABOUT
SERENA WILLIAMS AND THAT
FINALS MATCH, IS INDICATIVE OF
THE WAY THAT WE ARE TRYING TO
HEAR ANGER DIFFERENTLY
AND UNDERSTAND ITS DIMENSIONS.
SO, THE PUBLIC MAY HAVE BEEN
WITH HER, THE CROWD MAY HAVE
BEEN WITH HER.
SHE WAS THE SUPERSTAR OF THAT
NIGHT, AND SHE WAS IN A VERY
DRAMATIC POSITION OF...

Steve says THERE WERE EXTENUATING
CIRCUMSTANCES. SHE WAS ON THE
COMEBACK TRAIL,
SHE WAS THE LOCAL GIRL,
THE OTHER TENNIS PLAYER
WAS FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY.

Rebecca says AND MY VIEW OF WHAT HAPPENED
THAT NIGHT IS THAT THOSE
EXTENUATING CIRCUMSTANCES CAN'T
BE TAKEN OUT OF.
I'VE HAD SEVERAL, YOU KNOW,
DISAGREEMENTS ABOUT THIS.
LOTS OF PEOPLE WHO SAY,
"LISTEN, I'M A TENNIS FAN.
SHE BROKE HER RACKET.
THAT'S JUST CLEAN AND SIMPLE."
RIGHT? MY VIEW IS THAT YOU
CAN'T, WHEN IT COMES TO
SERENA WILLIAMS, YOU CAN'T TAKE
RACE AND GENDER OUT OF
THE PICTURE BECAUSE THE SPORT
THAT SHE HAS DOMINATED NOW
FOR SEVERAL YEARS, HAS
HISTORICALLY BEEN SUCH A WHITE
SPORT, AND HER PRESENCE IN IT
HAS NEVER BEEN TREATED EASILY
OR SHE HASN'T BEEN TREATED WITH
THE KIND OF RESPECT
AND LEGITIMACY EVEN AS SHE'S
HELPED TO REMAKE THAT SPORT.

Steve says REALLY?

Rebecca says SHE, OH, SHE HAS DEEP FANDOM,
I'M NOT QUESTIONING THAT.

Steve says COVER OF THE NEW YORK TIMES
MAGAZINE AS
THE GREATEST ATHLETE OF
OUR TIME.

Rebecca says SHE ABSOLUTELY HAS BEEN,
BUT SHE'S ALSO HAD HER DRESS,
HER OUTFITS, YOU KNOW,

Steve says CRITICIZED.

Rebecca says NOT ONLY CRITICIZED,
BANNED BY THE FRENCH OPEN
IN THIS PAST YEAR.
UM, I THINK YOU CAN'T,
THE CIRCUMSTANCES BEHIND
THAT MATCH YOU CAN'T SEPARATE
FROM HER RACE AND GENDER,
INCLUDING THE FACT THAT SHE HAD
TO COME BACK FROM HAVING BEEN
UNSEATED AFTER HAVING A BABY.
WE KNOW, I MEAN, THAT'S RELATED
TO HER GENDER. THAT DOESN'T
HAPPEN TO MALE PLAYERS
WHEN THEY HAVE A BABY.
YOU KNOW, THAT THE HEALTH
PROBLEMS THAT SHE'D HAD ARE TIED
TO BLACK MATERNAL HEALTH,
BLACK WOMEN'S, UH, MATERNAL
HEALTH AND MORTALITY RATES
IN WAYS THAT ARE REALLY CLOSE.
SHE'D HAD HER SYMPTOMS KIND OF
IGNORED, AND SHE'S AN EXTREMELY
POWERFUL, WEALTHY WOMAN,
AND SUFFERED CERTAIN MEDICAL
DIAGNOSES THAT HAD LED TO HER
TO HAVE TO WEAR DIFFERENT
KINDS OF CLOTHING,
WHICH THEN IS CENSORED,
AND THE FIRST, WHEN IT GETS TO
WHAT HAPPENED IN THAT MATCH,
I THINK IT REALLY MATTERS,
BEFORE WE GET TO THE RACKET
BEING BROKEN,
THAT THE VERY FIRST WARNING
THAT SHE GOT,
WHICH WAS FOR THIS COACHING,
THAT HER COACH HAD GIVEN HER
A SIGNAL, IT WORKED...
THE THING SHE GOT SO MAD ABOUT
WAS THIS SUGGESTION
THAT THERE WAS SOMETHING
ILLEGITIMATE ABOUT HER PLAY.
THAT SHE CHEATED.

Steve says YES, THAT SHE CHEATED. RIGHT.

Rebecca says YOU'RE CALLING ME A CHEAT.
AND I DON'T THINK YOU,
AND THE LEVEL OF FURY THAT
SHE WAS PROVOKED TO BY THAT
PARTICULAR WARNING,
BEFORE SHE'D LOST A POINT,
BEFORE SHE'D LOST THE GAME,
THAT WAS ABOUT QUESTIONING
THE LEGITIMACY OF
HER BEING ON THAT COURT,
AND I THINK YOU CANNOT SEPARATE
THAT FROM HER HISTORY WITHIN
THIS SPORT.

Steve says OKAY.
SO, I SHOULDN'T GET
TOO EXCITED THAT
THAT'S AN EXAMPLE OF PROGRESS?

Rebecca says NO, THE PROGRESS IS WE HAD THE
CONVERSATION ABOUT IT.

Steve says YES, WE DID.

Rebecca says THE PROGRESS IS THAT PEOPLE
WROTE A LOT OF SMART THINGS
AND SAID A LOT OF SMART THINGS
ABOUT IT,
AND THAT WE HAD FIGHTS ABOUT IT.

Steve says OKAY, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT,
JUST IN OUR REMAINING MOMENT
HERE, LET ME ASK YOU
ABOUT THE, UH, THE MARCH ON
WASHINGTON,
AND, IN FACT,
ALL AROUND THE WORLD,
ECHOED ALL AROUND THE WORLD,
THE DAY AFTER DONALD TRUMP'S
INAUGURATION. DID THAT
ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING?

Rebecca says OH, YEAH.

A picture shows thousands upon thousands of people marching on Capitol Hill holding signs.

Steve says WHAT DID IT ACCOMPLISH?

The caption changes to "Don't get mad, get even."

Rebecca says WELL, IT BROUGHT A LOT OF PEOPLE
WHO HAD NEVER PREVIOUSLY BEEN
INVOLVED IN PROTEST,
AND WHO'D NEVER, YOU KNOW,
HELD A SIGN IN THE AIR BEFORE,
NEVER THROWN A FIST IN THE AIR,
IT BROUGHT A LOT OF PEOPLE INTO
CIVIC PARTICIPATION IN A WAY
THAT THEY FOUND EXCITING,
AND ALSO, ONE OF THE THINGS
I ARGUE IN THIS BOOK
IS THAT WHILE PEOPLE THINK OF
ANGER AS ONLY DIVISIVE
OR DESTRUCTIVE, AND IT HAS THOSE
QUALITIES,
I DON'T MEAN TO BEHAVE
AS THOUGH IT DOESN'T,
WE NEVER TALK ABOUT HOW
IT CAN BE CONNECTIVE,
AND THE ANGER THAT BROUGHT SO
MANY OF THOSE WOMEN OUT
INTO THE STREETS,
NOT JUST IN WASHINGTON,
BUT IN ALASKA, AND IN
ANTARCTICA, AND IN TORONTO...

Steve says YUP. ON THAT DAY THOUGH, REBECCA.
ON THAT DAY. DID IT HAVE LEGS?

Rebecca says YES!

Steve says OKAY, TELL ME HOW.

Rebecca says THAT'S WHERE PEOPLE DECIDED, MET
EACH OTHER,
REALIZED THAT THEY WERE NOT ALONE.
REALIZED THAT THEY WERE PART OF
POTENTIALLY A MOVEMENT,
OR A COALITION OF PEOPLE WHO
WERE ANGRY AT HOW THINGS WERE.
THAT THEY COULD RUN FOR OFFICE.
THAT THEY COULD ORGANIZE
ON BEHALF OF OTHER PEOPLE WHO
WERE RUNNING FOR OFFICE.
THAT THERE WERE OTHER WOMEN FROM
OTHER PLACES AROUND THE WORLD
WHO FELT THE SAME AS THEY.

Steve says OKAY, IF THOSE WERE THE SEEDS
THAT WERE PLANTED, WHAT WERE
THE BUDS THAT SPROUTED?

Rebecca says IN THE UNITED STATES WE JUST
ELECTED 110 WOMEN TO, UH,
THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
AND GUBERNATORIAL MANSIONS.

Steve says UNPRECEDENTED.

Rebecca says UNPRECEDENTED! HISTORIC!
THE ME TOO MOVEMENT ITSELF
AS WE TALKED ABOUT, I THINK
SPRUNG FROM SOME OF THAT ANGER.
NOT ONLY THAT, WITHIN A WEEK OF
THAT WOMEN'S MARCH,
YOU HAD THE PROTESTS AGAINST
THE TRAVEL BAN, THE MUSLIM BAN,
PEOPLE RUSHING TO AIRPORTS NOT
JUST TO HOLD PROTEST SIGNS,
THOUGH THEY DID THAT,
BUT TO WRITE OUT THE WRITS
OF HABEAS CORPUS TO HELP GET
PEOPLE, DO ACTUAL
POLITICALLY CONSEQUENTIAL,
PERSONALLY CONSEQUENTIAL
THINGS TO HELP THOSE
WHO'D BEEN DETAINED.
THE MAJORITY OF THOSE PEOPLE,
THE PROTESTS AT THOSE AIRPORTS,
WERE WOMEN.
WITHIN A FEW MONTHS OF THAT,
YOU HAD, THERE WAS THE...
REPUBLICAN CONGRESS HAD THE
FULL ABILITY TO REPEAL
HEALTHCARE REFORM,
REPEAL OBAMACARE.
THERE WAS A MASS PROTEST.
MILLIONS OF CALLS AND LETTERS
PLACED TO MEMBERS OF THE SENATE.
THE MAJORITY, LOTS OF STUDIES
FOUND THAT SOMETHING LIKE 85 percent
OF THOSE DOING THE CALLING
AND THE WRITING TO THE SENATORS
EVERY DAY FOR THAT PERIOD IN THE
SPRING OF 2017 WERE WOMEN.
IT WORKED. IT APPLIED ENOUGH
PRESSURE THAT THREE
REPUBLICANS VOTED AGAINST THE
REPEAL OF OBAMACARE.
OBAMACARE DIDN'T GET REPEALED IN
THAT VOTE.
SO, ALL OF THAT IS STEMMING FROM
A LOT OF THE SAME
IMPULSE TO PARTICIPATE IN CIVIC
CHALLENGE,
CIVIC EDUCATION,
AND CIVIC ENGAGEMENT
THAT WE SAW FIRST IN THIS
MASS WOMEN'S MARCH.

Steve says I HAVE ONE MORE QUESTION FOR
YOU, AND IT'S ABOUT, UH,
THIS PAGE OF YOUR BOOK.
WHO ARE BELLA AND ROSIE?

Rebecca says THEY ARE MY DAUGHTERS.

Steve says AND, WHAT KIND OF AMERICA DO YOU
THINK THEY'RE GONNA GROW UP IN?

Rebecca sighs, then says
I DON'T KNOW.
I DON'T KNOW. I THINK THAT'S AN
OPEN QUESTION,
AND I THINK THAT, UM,
MANY OF US ARE ENGAGED IN
WHAT WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND IS
A FIGHT THAT'S GONNA LAST
BEYOND MY LIFETIME,
AND PROBABLY THROUGH THEIR'S,
AND I THINK THAT, UM, THE ERA IN
WHICH I WAS BORN,
IN WHICH PART OF THE MESSAGES
THAT I WAS SENT WHEN I WAS
THEIR AGE,
NOT NECESSARILY BY MY PARENTS,
WHO ARE POLITICALLY ENGAGED
PEOPLE,
BUT BY A CULTURE
AND A POP CULTURE,
WAS THAT THERE WAS NOTHING LEFT
TO BE ANGRY ABOUT.
WE'D FIXED THE PROBLEMS,
AND THAT THERE WEREN'T
BIG FIGHTS TO BE HAD,
AND IF THERE'S ONE THING THAT
I WANT THEM AND SO MANY OTHERS
TO KNOW, IT'S THAT THERE'S
AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT TO STILL BE
ANGRY ABOUT,
AND AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT
TO FIGHT ABOUT.
I'M GONNA SPEND THE REST OF MY
LIFE FIGHTING FOR IT,
AND I STRONGLY SUSPECT THAT THEY
WILL SPEND THEIR LIVES
FIGHTING, TOO.

Steve says WELL, YOU'VE CERTAINLY GIVEN US
250 PAGES
OF STUFF TO BE GOOD AND MAD
ABOUT.

Rebecca says THANKS.

The caption changes to "Producer: Sandra Gionas, @sandragionas."

Steve says I CAN'T THANK YOU ENOUGH FOR
COMING UP TO TORONTO,
AND FOR BEING ON THIS SET TO
HAVE THIS CONVERSATION.

Rebecca says THANK YOU SO MUCH.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.

Steve says THAT'S REBECCA TRAISTER.
GOOD AND MAD: THE REVOLUTIONARY
POWER OF WOMEN'S ANGER.

Watch: She's Mad as Hell