Transcript: China's Footprint in Africa | Oct 30, 2018

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a blue suit, white shirt, and striped lavender tie.

A caption on screen reads "China's footprint in Africa. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says BILLIONS IN FOREIGN
DIRECT INVESTMENT.
MASSIVE INFRASTRUCTURE BUILDS.
EXTENSIVE RESOURCE EXTRACTION,
AND A DEEPENING DEBT
RELATIONSHIP.
IN JUST TWO DECADES, CHINA HAS
BECOME A KEY ECONOMIC PLAYER FOR
MANY COUNTRIES ACROSS AFRICA.
JOINING US NOW TO MAP THE
SIGNIFICANCE OF THOSE EVOLVING
RELATIONSHIPS:
GORDON CHANG, COLUMNIST AT THE
DAILY BEAST AND AUTHOR OF "THE
COMING COLLAPSE OF CHINA."

Gordon is in his fifties, clean-shaven, with short gray hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and blue tie.

Steve continues KENNETH KALU, AUTHOR OF "FOREIGN
AID AND THE FUTURE OF AFRICA,"
HE'S ALSO ASSISTANT PROFESSOR IN
GLOBAL MANAGEMENT STUDIES AT
RYERSON UNIVERSITY...

Kenneth is in his forties, clean-shaven and bald. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and striped yellow tie.

Steve continues AND LYNETTE ONG, ASSOCIATE
PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL SCIENCE
AT U OF T'S MUNK SCHOOL OF
GLOBAL AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC POLICY.

Lynette is in her forties, with long straight black hair. She's wearing a bright red blazer over a black shirt.

Steve continues AND GORDON, WE'RE DELIGHTED TO
WELCOME YOU BACK HERE.
AND SO OUR OTHER TWO GUESTS HERE
FOR THE FIRST TIME, GREAT TO
MEET BOTH OF YOU.
LET US PUT THIS GRAPHIC UP IF WE
CAN, SHELDON, JUST TO SET THE
TABLE FOR THE DISCUSSION TO
COME.
THIS IS A CONVERSATION ABOUT AN
EXPANDING PRESENCE ON THE
AFRICAN CONTINENT.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "An expanding presence."

Steve reads data from the slate and says
AFRICA IS NOW THE THIRD-LARGEST
DESTINATION FOR CHINESE
INVESTMENT BEHIND ASIA AND
EUROPE.
THIS SEPTEMBER THE PRESIDENT
PLEDGED 60 BILLION DOLLARS TO AFRICA.
THAT'S IN THE FORM OF
ASSISTANCE, INVESTMENT AND
LOANS.
HE PLEDGED THE SAME AMOUNT THREE
YEARS AGO.
THERE ARE AN ESTIMATED 10,000 OR
MORE CHINESE-OWNED COMPANIES IN
AFRICA, AND 90 percent OF THEM ARE
APPARENTLY PRIVATELY OWNED.
SHALL WE DO ONE MORE GRAPHIC HERE?

Another slate shows additional information and Steve reads.

He says HERE ARE THE TOP TEN
DESTINATIONS FOR CHINESE
INVESTMENT IN AFRICA AS OF 2005
TO NOW.
AS THE MAP UNFOLDS, YOU WILL SEE
NIGERIA, NUMBER ONE AT ALMOST
50 BILLION DOLLARS.
THEN EGYPT, ETHIOPIA, ANGOLA, AL
GERA, SOUTH AFRICA, KENYA,
ZAMBIA, THE PRC AS IN THE DRC,
AND THEN THE REPUBLIC OF CONGO.
CHINA IS ALL OVER AFRICA.
GORDON, HOW LONG HAS CHINA HAD
AN ECONOMIC PRESENCE IN AFRICA FOR?

The caption changes to "Gordon Chang. The daily beast."
Then, it changes again to "Investing, long-term."

Gordon says WELL, IT GOES BACK, THE
RELATIONSHIP TO THE FOUNDER OF
THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC.
AND THEN IT WAS PRIMARILY
POLITICAL, NOT SO MUCH ECONOMIC,
BUT THIS HAS SORT OF SET THE
TABLE FOR CHINESE INVESTMENT
INTO THE CONTINENT.
YOU KNOW, MAO WANTED SUPPORT.
HE LOOKED TO AFRICA BECAUSE SO
MANY NATIONS THERE, WHICH MEANT
SO MANY VOTES IN THE UN SECURITY
COUNCIL.
AND OF COURSE THIS WAS THE THIRD
WORLD, SO IT WAS REALLY
IMPORTANT.
SO FOR TODAY, FOR INSTANCE, YEAR
AFTER YEAR, YOU KNOW, MORE THAN
HALF OF CHINA'S FOREIGN
ASSISTANCE GOES TO AFRICA.
EVERY TIME YOU HAVE A NEW
CHINESE LEADER, THEIR FIRST TRIP
INCLUDES AFRICAN STATES.
XI JUNG PING WENT TO THREE
AFRICAN COUNTRIES ON HIS FIRST
TRIP.
SO THIS IS A REALLY STRONG
RELATIONSHIP, AND THE ECONOMICS
HAVE FOLLOWED THAT AS CHINA, OF
COURSE, WANTED MATERIALS, WANTED
A PLACE FOR MANUFACTURERS, AND
WANTED ALL SORTS OF
RELATIONSHIPS.
SO YOU SEE IT AS VERY DEEP.

Steve says LYNETTE, HOW COME
SUCH A BIG UPTICK IN RECENT
YEARS IN PARTICULAR?

The caption changes to "Lynette Ong. Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy."

Lynette says WELL, THAT IS A RESULT OF
MANY THINGS.
ONE OF IT IS WITH CHANGING
COMPARATIVE ADVANTAGE OF CHINA,
RAISING LABOUR COSTS, CHINESE
MANUFACTURERS ALSO LOOKING AT
GETTING THEIR PRODUCTION AND
THINGS DONE OVERSEAS WHERE
LABOUR COSTS ARE CHEAPER.
AND AFRICA IS THE NATURAL
ALTERNATIVE.
THE OTHER REASON IS, OF COURSE,
AFRICA IS ALSO A CONSUMER MARKET
WITH HIGH PERPETUITY RATES, HIGH
POPULATION RATES.
WITH THE COMBINATION OF TWO
REASONS WE SEE A RANGE OF
INVESTMENT POURING INTO AFRICA
FOR INFRASTRUCTURE,
MANUFACTURING SERVICES SECTOR.

Steve says IF PEOPLE WANT TO KNOW
WHAT THE INVESTMENT IS GOING
INTO, WE HAVE A CHART FOR THAT TOO.
WE GOT A CHART FOR EVERYTHING HERE.
LET'S BRING THAT ONE UP.
HERE'S OUR LITTLE PIE CHART.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "Chinese investment in Africa by industry."

A pie chart shows what areas the investment goes into.

Steve reads data from the slate and says
34 percent, THAT BIGGEST CHUNK ON THE
BOTTOM, IS IN TRANSPORT.
32 percent IN THE TOP LEFT CORNER THERE
IS ENERGY.
12 percent IN REAL ESTATE.
10 percent IN METALS, AND YOU SEE THE
WHOLE LIST ON THE RIGHT-HAND
SIDE THERE OF ALL OF THE
DIFFERENT INVESTMENTS THAT CHINA
IS IN IN AFRICA.
KENNETH, YOU JUST CAME BACK FROM
AFRICA A FEW DAYS AGO.
GIVE US A SENSE OF HOW THOSE
INVESTMENTS ARE CHANGING THE
REGION ON THE GROUND.

The caption changes to "Kenneth Kalu. Ted Rogers School of Management."

Kenneth says ON THE GROUND, LIKE YOU JUST
POINTED OUT, CHINA IS INVESTING
ACROSS SEVERAL SECTORS.
YOU KNOW, IF IF YOU LOOK AT
AFRICA, THE BIGGEST ECONOMIC
PROGRESS THERE IS
INFRASTRUCTURE.
LACK OF ROADS, RAILWAYS AND
WATER SUPPLY.
CHINA... ACROSS THE SECTORS.

Steve says SO THEY ARE BUILDING
ROADS, BRIDGES.

Kenneth says AND INVESTING.
EVEN NOW THEY ARE BUILDING
SPECIAL ECONOMIC ZONES WHICH
ARE... WHERE THEY BUILD
INFRASTRUCTURE TO SUPPORT
COMPANIES WISHING TO INVEST IN
AFRICAN COUNTRIES IN A WAY...
THOSE INFRASTRUCTURE...

[INDISCERNIBLE].

Steve says WHAT IS SPECIAL ABOUT THEM?

Kenneth says BECAUSE THEY HAVE A LOT OF
KIND OF COMPANIES LOOKING
THAT... PAY TAXES AND THEY HAVE
INFRASTRUCTURE ALREADY DEVELOPED
SO THEY DON'T GET... BY POOR
PUBLIC UTILITIES, POOR ROADS AND
ALL THAT.

Steve says SO THERE'S ADDED
ECONOMIC INCENTIVE TO GO THERE.

Kenneth says YES.

Steve says GOTCHA.
I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW, LYNETTE,
WHETHER IT IS MOSTLY
AFRICAN-BASED WORKERS OR MOSTLY
CHINESE WORKERS THAT ARE GETTING
THE BENEFITS FROM ALL OF THIS
INVESTMENT.

The caption changes to "Lynette Ong, @onglynette."

Lynette says I THINK IT'S A BIT OF BOTH.
SO IF WE LOOK AT THE STATISTICS
10, 15 YEARS AGO, WE SEE IT'S
MOSTLY CHINESE WORKERS.
BUT NOW I THINK IN THE LAST 5, 7
YEARS THINGS HAVE ACTUALLY
CHANGED.
SO THERE'S A MCKENZIE STUDY
RELEASED LAST YEAR THAT SHOWS
THERE ARE 10,000 CHINESE-OWNED
FIRMS IN AFRICA, AND 90 percent OF THEM
ARE ACTUALLY PRIVATELY OWNED.
SO IT'S NOT JUST STATE SECTOR
INITIATIVES.
A LOT OF THEM ARE ACTUALLY
PRIVATE SECTOR RESPONDING TO
MARKET SIGNALS, IF YOU LIKE,
RIGHT?
AND THEY ARE PROVIDING JOBS TO
AFRICANS AS WELL AS PROVIDING
TRAINING TO AFRICANS, RIGHT?
AND TO GO BACK TO THE QUESTION
OF MANUFACTURING AND
INFRASTRUCTURE, AND I THINK THEY
GO HAND IN HAND TOGETHER, YOU
COULDN'T, LIKE... COUNTRIES LIKE
INDIA, THE REASON WHY
MANUFACTURING HASN'T REALLY TOOK
OFF IS BECAUSE INFRASTRUCTURE
HAS BEEN LAGGING BEHIND.
AND IF YOU WANT TO HAVE
MANUFACTURING SECTOR GROWING,
YOU MUST HAVE INFRASTRUCTURE AS
WELL, AND I THINK CHINESE IS
GOING THERE TO GET BOTH GOING AT
THE SAME TIME.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Steve says LET ME GET GORDON AND
THEN KENNETH TO RESPOND TO THIS.
CHINA'S INTERACTIONS WITH
AFRICAN COUNTRIES, HOW DOES THAT
DIFFER FROM THEIR INTERACTIONS
WITH WESTERN COUNTRIES?

The caption changes to "A different way of doing things."

Gordon says WELL, I THINK THAT CERTAINLY
YOU SEE THE DOMINATION OF
AFRICA, AND PART OF IT IS
BECAUSE THEY ARE PROVIDING
MONEY.
AND RIGHT NOW WESTERN COMPANIES
AND WESTERN COUNTRIES ARE NOT
DOING THAT.
YOU KNOW, OUR AID, AMERICAN AID,
WESTERN AID TO AFRICA IS VERY
DIFFERENT.
IT'S MORE IN TERMS OF, FOR
INSTANCE, HIV-AIDS, YOU KNOW,
SOME WATER PROJECTS.
VERY SMALL ONES.
CHINA'S PROJECTS, AS KENNETH
TALKED ABOUT, ARE LARGE.
THEY ARE BIG ONES, THINGS THAT
YOU NEED.
YOU NEED PORTS, YOU NEED ROADS.
THE WEST HAS VERY, VERY
DIFFERENT RELATIONS WITH AFRICA.
YOU KNOW, WESTERN INVESTMENT AS
A STOCK IS STILL BIGGER THAN
CHINA'S, BUT OF COURSE CHINA'S
GROWING MUCH FASTER THAN OUR
INVESTMENT IS.
BUT THAT WILL CHANGE BECAUSE,
YOU KNOW, OUR COMPANIES... YOU
KNOW, EVEN THOUGH MAYBE 10 percent OR
SO OF THE COMPANIES... CHINESE
COMPANIES INVESTING IN AFRICA
ARE STATE, STILL THEY'RE THE BIG
INVESTORS, ARE THOSE STATE
INVESTORS.
WHAT YOU'RE SEEING IN THE U.S.
IS THAT WE DON'T TELL GENERAL
MOTORS, OH, YOU'VE GOT TO GO TO
ZAMBIA, BUT THEY WILL GO THERE
BECAUSE THE ECONOMICS MAKES
SENSE.
YOU LOOK YEAR AFTER YEAR, ABOUT
HALF OF THE 10 FASTEST-GROWING
ECONOMIES IN THE WORLD ARE IN
SUB-SAHARAN AFRICA, AND
EVENTUALLY AMERICAN BUSINESS
WILL CATCH UP.
BUT IT'S GOING TO TAKE A LITTLE
BIT OF TIME.

Steve says LET ME FOLLOW UP ON
THAT BECAUSE ONE HEARS ALL THE
TIME ABOUT CHINA SAYING OUR
RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU IS BASED
ON NO STRINGS ATTACHED.

Kenneth says YES.

Steve says WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

Kenneth says IT MEANS, ONE, CHINA DOES
NOT... AFRICA'S POLITICS TO
AFRICA.
CHINA SEES AFRICA BUT NOT AS
EQUAL BUSINESS.

Steve says AND THE WESTERN
COUNTRIES DON'T?

Kenneth says YEAH.
IT'S TOTALLY DIFFERENT, AND I
HAVE POINTED OUT THE WEST
TRADITIONALLY SEES AFRICA...
[INDISCERNIBLE]
ON POLITICS.
THE WEST WILL COME WITH AID AND
ATTACH THOSE AID OR LOANS WITH
CONDITIONS.
SOMETIMES THROUGH THE WORLD BANK
AND THE IMF.
THEY MIGHT COME AND SAY, LOOK,
GOVERNMENTS HANDS OFF SEVERAL
SECTORS.
WE HAVE TO LIVE OUR LIVES AND DO
THIS TO BE ABLE TO QUALIFY FOR
THIS ASSISTANCE.

Steve says OR WE EXPECT CERTAIN
HUMAN RIGHTS EXPECTATIONS AS WELL.

Kenneth says OR DEMOCRATIC, WHATEVER IT'S
CALLED, BUT CHINA HAS COME TO
SAY, LOOK, WE ARE HERE TO DO
BUSINESS.
WE SEE AFRICA AS CO-PARTNERS.
WE BELIEVE AFRICAN COUNTRIES
HAVE THEIR RIGHTS TO BE ABLE TO
DEVISE THEIR OWN PATH.
WE ARE NOT HERE TO TEACH YOU
ABOUT DEMOCRACY.
WE ARE HERE TO TEACH YOU ABOUT
THE... BECAUSE THERE IS NO BEST
ECONOMIC MODEL.
WE BELIEVE IN THE RIGHTS OF
EVERY COUNTRY TO BE ABLE TO
IDENTIFY WHAT MAKES SENSE FOR
THEM. SO THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE.
BESIDES THAT LIKE GORDON POINTED
OUT CHINA'S INVESTING ACROSS
DIFFERENT SECTORS AND LOOKS LIKE
CHINA HAS COME TO STAY.
YOU CAN DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN
PATIENT CAPITAL AND HOT MONEY.
HOT MONEY--YOU KNOW THAT THEY
BRING MONEY FROM NEW YORK AND
SOMETIMES LONDON. PUT IT IN
THE STOCK MARKET IN AFRICAN
COUNTRIES AND IF THERE IS
A LITTLE BIT OF CRISIS, OF
COURSE THEIR MONEY RUNS AWAY.
CHINA'S INVESTING FOR A LONG
TIME AT LEAST IT LOOKS LIKE THAT
AND THAT IS WHAT WE'RE SEEING
BUILDING INDUSTRIAL, BUILDING
RESIDENCES. THESE ARE LONG
TIME INVESTMENTS. I CALLED
THOSE PATIENT CAPITAL.
AS AGAINST HOT MONEYS.

Steve says GORDON, DO YOU SEE
ANYTHING NEOCOLONIAL IN CHINA'S
INVESTMENTS IN AFRICA?

Gordon says WELL, NOT IN THE INVESTMENTS.

Steve says IN THE RELATIONSHIP?

The caption changes to "Gordon Chang, @GordonGChang."
Then, it changes again to "Colonial overtones?"

Gordon says IF YOU LOOK AT THE
RELATIONSHIP, THOUGH, BECAUSE IT
IS CHANGING.
YOU KNOW, IF YOU STEP BACK, THE
RURAL IN CHINA IS NOW DROPPING
HINTS THAT HE'S THE WORLD'S ONLY
SOVEREIGN, AND THIS IS REALLY
STUNNING, BUT THEY ARE TALKING
NOW ABOUT... AND THE FOREIGN
MINISTER LAST SEPTEMBER ACTUALLY
MADE IT PRETTY EXPLICIT.
IF YOU THINK AFRICAN COUNTRIES
DON'T HAVE SOVEREIGNTY BECAUSE
WESTERN COUNTRIES DON'T HAVE
SOVEREIGNTY, THAT'S GETTING
CLOSE TO THE ESSENCE OF
IMPERIALISM.
ONE THING IS YOU'RE STARTING TO
SEE THIS DEAD TRAP DIPLOMACY
THAT PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT.
MAYBE FROM A CHINESE PERSPECTIVE
IT'S LIKE WE HAVE GIVEN YOU A
LOT OF EASY MONEY AND THAT'S
HOOKING THE AFRICAN ECONOMIES IN
WAYS WHICH ARE CAUSING DEBT
CRISES LIKE IN ZAMBIA.
THE ESSENCE OF IMPERIALISM ARE
MILITARY BASIS, THE CHINESE HAVE
BEEN SAYING.
BY THE WAY, CHINA'S FIRST
OVERSEAS MILITARY BASE IS IN THE
HORN OF AFRICA WHICH NOW HAS A
DEBT CRISIS BECAUSE OF CHINESE
LOANS.
SO YOU ARE STARTING TO SEE VERY
UNWELCOME TENDENCIES IN THIS.
AND AS THIS PLAYS OUT, I THINK
WE'RE GOING TO HAVE MANY MORE
QUESTIONS, AND THE AFRICAN
STATES ARE GOING TO HAVE MANY
MORE QUESTIONS ABOUT THEIR
RELATIONSHIP WITH BEIJING.

The caption changes to "The new silk road. Tonight 9 and 10 PM. Also streaming at tvo.org/chinahereandnow"

Lynette says WELL, I THINK THE IMPLICATION
ABOUT NO STRINGS ATTACHED IS I
THINK THE ONUS IS REALLY ON THE
HOST COUNTRIES, RIGHT, TO DO THE JOB.

Gordon says THAT'S RIGHT.

Lynette says AND WE SEE, YOU KNOW,
COUNTRIES LIKE UGANDA, KENYA
WHERE THERE'S SOME DEGREES OF
ACCOUNTABILITY IN THE REGION, IN
THE SYSTEM.
WE SEE THE OPPOSITION, THE CIVIL
SOCIETY AND THE CITIZENS MAKING
NOISE ABOUT WHETHER CHINESE
LOANS TO AFRICA IS SUSTAINABLE.
AND I CAN GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE OF
AFRICA.
MALAYSIA RECENTLY HAD A REGIME
CHANGE BECAUSE THE PREVIOUS
GOVERNMENT WAS CAUGHT UP IN THE
MASSIVE CORRUPTION SCANDAL, AND
PART OF THE ALLEGATION IS THAT
GOVERNMENT USED CHINESE
INVESTMENT TO FUNNEL MONEY INTO
THE COUNTRY, BIG CORRUPTION
SCANDAL.
YOU KNOW, THE... AND THE PEOPLE
SPOKEN.
THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN AND VOTED
THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT OUT, AND
THE NEW GOVERNMENT, THE FIRST
THING THEY DO WAS TO CANCEL TWO
CHINESE PROJECTS SAYING WE ARE
NOT ABLE TO REPAY.
SO I THINK THE ONUS IS REALLY ON
THE HOST GOVERNMENT.
THE GOVERNMENT NEEDS MONEY TO
DEVELOP.
CHINESE MONEY COMES IN NO
STRINGS ATTACHED.
SO THE OPPOSITION AND THE CIVIL
SOCIETY HAVE TO GET THEIR ACT
TOGETHER AND, YOU KNOW, PUT THE
GOVERNMENT UNDER SCRUTINY.

Steve says DO YOU SEE ANYTHING
COLONIAL IN THE RELATIONSHIP
THAT CHINA IS DEVELOPING WITH
AFRICAN COUNTRIES?

Kenneth says NOT AT ALL.

Steve says YOU DON'T?

The caption changes to "Kenneth Kalu, @Ken_Kalu."

Kenneth says I DON'T.
AND THESE ARE MY REASONS.
ONE, AS LYNETTE MENTIONED, IT
BEHOOVES ON THE COUNTRY TO
DEVISE THEIR OWN... PROGRESS.
CHINA IS BASICALLY AN
ALTERNATIVE TO THE WEST.
IF YOU LOOK AT IN THE '80S AND
'90S, ALMOST ALL PUBLIC DEBTS IN
AFRICAN COUNTRIES...
[INDISCERNIBLE]
WHY DIDN'T YOU
CALL THOSE
[INDISCERNIBLE]
CHINA HAS COME IN A WAY TO SAY,
LOOK, WE BELIEVE YOU AFRICAN
COUNTRIES HAVE THE CAPACITY,
HAVE THE INTELLIGENCE TO BE ABLE
TO DEVISE YOUR OWN PATH TO
PROGRESS.
IT IS STABILITY TO DEVISE WHAT
YOU'RE GOING TO DO, HOW THEY USE
CHINA'S RELATIONSHIP WITH
AFRICAN COUNTRIES.
IT IS YOUR DUTY AS NATIONAL
GOVERNMENTS TO THINK OF THE BEST
WAYS TO USE THE RESOURCES THAT
WE'RE PROVIDING TO YOU.
WE ARE NOT... [INDISCERNIBLE] WE
ARE NOT ASKING YOU TO CHANGE
YOUR POLICIES OR PROGRAMS AND
GOVERNMENT.
WE ARE JUST PROVIDING
ASSISTANCE.
WE ARE DOING BUSINESS WITH YOU.
WE BELIEVE IT'S THE...
[INDISCERNIBLE]
FOR SURE AFRICAN COUNTRIES ARE
PICKING... [INDISCERNIBLE] CHINA
WHICH IS... THIS IS NOT THE
FIRST TIME IN THE PAST, LIKE I
SAID, USE OF EUROPE AND AMERICA.
CHINA IS JUST... [INDISCERNIBLE]
I DON'T SEE WHY...
[INDISCERNIBLE] COLONIALISM COMING UP.

The caption changes to "Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live."

Gordon says WELL, AREN'T YOU A LITTLE BIT
CONCERNED ABOUT THE CHINESE
RACISM, WHICH IS EVIDENT?
AND THIS IS NOT JUST THE RACISM
OF INDIVIDUAL CHINESE WHO GO TO AFRICA.
THIS IS RACISM WHICH IS
SPONSORED BY THE CHINESE STATE.
AS WE SAW, FOR INSTANCE, IN THAT
14-MINUTE SKIT ON THE CHINA
CENTRAL TELEVISION SPRING GALA,
LET'S CELEBRATE TOGETHER, WHICH
DEPICTED AFRICANS AS OBJECTS OF
DERISION AND ALMOST DEPICTED
THEM AS PRIMATES, WHICH IS A
THEME THAT GOES THROUGH A NUMBER
OF CHINESE OFFICIAL
PRONOUNCEMENTS.
THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT, AND
RACISM, OF COURSE, IS NOT THE
SAME THING AS COLONIALISM, BUT
IT'S CERTAINLY IS PRECURSOR FOR
IT AND IT'S A PRECONDITION FOR
IT.
AND WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN CHINA
RIGHT NOW ARE RACIST ATTITUDES
TOWARD AFRICA, WHICH ARE HORRIFIC.

Kenneth says ACTUALLY, THIS...
[INDISCERNIBLE] POCKETS OF
PROBLEMS HERE AND THERE.
I'M SURPRISED THAT IT'S COMING
FROM... [INDISCERNIBLE] AFRICA
AND CHINA.
I DON'T SEE CHINA AND AFRICA...
[INDISCERNIBLE] WHAT WE HAVE
SYSTEMIC, CONTINUOUS...
[INDISCERNIBLE] FROM THE WEST.
SO WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW IS JUST
A LITTLE BIT... [INDISCERNIBLE]

Lynette says YES.
YES.

Kenneth says YOU KNOW, IT IS STILL...
[INDISCERNIBLE] AFRICAN
COUNTRIES TO FIND A WAY TO
DEVISE A PATH TO RELATIONSHIP,
THE NATURAL RELATIONSHIP TO HAVE
WITH CHINA.
YOU WILL DEFINITELY HAVE ISSUES.
THERE ARE POCKETS OF ISSUES, AND
THERE ARE PROBLEMS...
[INDISCERNIBLE] EVEN IN THE
FACTORIES THAT I'VE BEEN TO IN
AFRICAN COUNTRIES.
WE NEED AFRICAN GOVERNMENT TO
DOMESTICATE THIS RELATIONSHIP,
TO FIND A WAY TO MOVE ALONG, TO
CREATE THE PROSPERITY THAT
AFRICANS NEED.

Steve says I WANT TO GET
LYNETTE'S TAKE ON RACISM.

Lynette says WHETHER OR NOT THE CHINESE
ARE RACIST, AND I'M NOT GOING TO
DEFEND THAT POSITION.
I THINK THERE ARE ACTUALLY A LOT
OF AFRICANS LIVING IN VARIOUS
CHINESE CITIES AND THERE HAVE
BEEN SOCIAL TENSION BETWEEN
THEM.
AND I THINK CHINA HAS A LONG WAY
TO GO.
LIKE, JUST 40 YEARS AGO IT WAS A
COMPLETELY CLOSED COUNTRY, SO I
THINK THE PEOPLE HAVE... AND THE
GOVERNMENT HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO
TO LEARN WITH... TO LIVE WITH
OTHER ETHNIC GROUPS PEACEFULLY.
BUT YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT IS A
TOTALLY SEPARATE QUESTION ON
WHETHER CHINESE INVESTMENT INTO
AFRICA IS A GOOD THING OR NOT.
I THINK WE NEED TO SEPARATE THE
QUESTION OF MONEY, INVESTMENT,
DEVELOPMENT FROM THAT OF RACISM.
AND I ACTUALLY THINK THAT IF WE
IMPROVE THE ECONOMIC
RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE TWO
CONTINENTS
CONTINENTS, CHINA AND AFRICA,
THAT WOULD HELP TO IMPROVE
UNDERSTANDING BETWEEN THE TWO
RACES.
AND YOU KNOW, IT WOULD HELP TO
AMELIORATE SOME OF THE RACIST
ATTITUDES OF THE CHINESE.

Steve says LET'S INTRODUCE SOME
NUMBERS HERE.
WE HAVE SOME ON WHAT AFRICANS
THINK OF CHINA.
LET'S BRING THIS GRAPHIC UP.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "What Africans think. China's influence."

Steve reads data from the slate and says
APPARENTLY 63 percent OF THE PEOPLE
SURVEYED IN 36 AFRICAN COUNTRIES
CONSIDERED CHINA TO BE A
SOMEWHAT OR VERY POSITIVE
INFLUENCE ON THEIR COUNTRY.
ONLY 15 percent SAW IT AS SOMEWHAT OR
VERY NEGATIVE.
ALMOST A QUARTER OF AFRICANS
SURVEYED SAW CHINA AS WIELDING
THE GREATEST EXTERNAL INFLUENCE
IN THEIR COUNTRY.
22 percent, A LITTLE LESS, THOUGHT IT
WAS THE U.S.
28 percent, A LITTLE MORE, SAW THEIR
FORMER COLONIAL POWER AS HAVING
THE GREATEST EXTERNAL INFLUENCE.
AND LET'S DO ONE MORE HERE.
ALMOST A QUARTER SAID CHINA
OFFERS THE BEST DEVELOPMENT
MODEL FOR THE FUTURE OF THEIR
COUNTRY.
30 percent, A LITTLE MORE, SAID IT WAS
THE UNITED STATES THAT HAD THE
BEST PLAN.
ONLY 13 percent FAVOURED THEIR FORMER
COLONIAL POWERS' DEVELOPMENT
MODEL.
OKAY, GORDON, WHAT ARE WE GOING
TO MAKE OF THESE NUMBERS?

Gordon says I THINK WHAT WE'RE GOING TO
MAKE OF THE NUMBERS IS THAT, YOU
KNOW, PEOPLE LIKE FREE MONEY OR
THEY LIKE CHEAP MONEY.
AND THAT IS... THERE'S NO
QUESTION ABOUT IT.
AND AS KENNETH AND LYNETTE HAS
SAID, IT'S UP TO THE HOST
COUNTRIES TO DO THEIR BEST TO
MAKE SURE THAT THEIR RELATIONS
WITH OTHER COUNTRIES ARE ON AN
ACCEPTABLE BASIS TO THEM.
UNFORTUNATELY IT HASN'T BEEN THE
CASE BECAUSE THERE'S BEEN A LOT
OF CHINESE CORRUPTION.
BECAUSE WHERE CHINESE MONEY GOES
YOU DO HAVE A LOT OF CORRUPTION,
AND IT STARTS AT THE TOP.
THE CHINESE POLITICAL SYSTEM.
AND IT DOESN'T REALLY HELP, BUT
YOU KNOW, AT THE LONG TERM, I
AGREE WITH LYNETTE AND KENNETH
THAT THEY'LL WORK IT OUT.
BUT IT'S GOING TO BE TOUGH, AND
PEOPLE AT THIS POINT HAVE GOT TO
UNDERSTAND THAT CHINA'S MODEL
PROBABLY IS NOT GOING TO BE
SUSTAINABLE IN THE LONG TERM
BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, KENNETH, YOU
TALK ABOUT, WELL, IT'S PATIENT
MONEY, BUT IT'S MONEY THAT IS
BEING EXTENDED NOT FOR ECONOMIC
REASONS AND IT'S BASICALLY
POLITICAL REASONS.
AND IF THE CHINESE ECONOMY CAN'T
SUSTAIN THAT, THEN YOU'RE GOING
TO HAVE REAL PROBLEMS IN AFRICA
AS CHINA STARTS TO WITHDRAW.
AND YOU'RE STARTING TO SEE RIGHT
NOW SIGNS OF EXTREME STRESS IN
THE CHINESE ECONOMY.

The caption changes to "tvo.org/theagenda; agendaconnect@tvo.org."

Steve says WELL, IS THERE AN
EXPECTATION THAT WITH THIS MONEY
WILL COME AFRICAN COUNTRIES
ADOPTING CHINA'S SYSTEM OF GOVERNANCE?

The caption changes to "We scratch your back..."

Kenneth says THAT'S ACTUALLY WHY I SAID...
[INDISCERNIBLE] I WAS WONDERING,
WELL, HOW, WHY CHINA VERY
CLEARLY FROM THE BEGINNING SAYS WE ARE NOT HERE TO DICTATE YOUR
POLICIES FOR YOU.
WE ARE NOT ASKING YOU TO ADOPT
OUR PARTY STATUS OR PARTY
STRUCTURE.
WE DON'T EVEN WANT TO KNOW.
CHINA INVESTS IN DEMOCRACIES AND
OTHERS ALIKE ACROSS AFRICAN
COUNTRIES.
THAT'S WHY WE SAY COMPARED TO
THE REST OF THE WEST AND THE
U.S., THIS IS DEMOCRACY, THIS IS
IT, YOU HAVE TO FOLLOW OUR SYSTEM.

Steve says YOU CAN'T BE SHOCKED
THAT THE WEST THINKS THAT
AFRICAN DICTATORSHIPS OUGHT TO
BE MORE DEMOCRATIC.

Kenneth says THEY WANT AFRICAN...
[INDISCERNIBLE] WHAT IS
AVAILABLE IN THE WEST.
SOMETIMES WHAT THEY MISS IS...
[INDISCERNIBLE].
YOU KNOW, IF YOU GOING TO ASK A
COUNTRY TO HOLD DEMOCRATIC
ELECTIONS, YOU HAVE TO...
[INDISCERNIBLE] AND THEN
CITIZENS ARE ABLE TO CORRECTLY
INTERPRET FOR THEMSELVES
MANIFESTOS AND MAKING DECISIONS.
YOU HAVE TO BE SURE THAT THOSE
EXIST FOR THEM.

Steve says DO THOSE CONDITIONS
EXIST NOW?
THAT'S A QUESTION.
WHAT'S YOUR VIEW, LYNETTE, ON
WHETHER OR NOT CHINA IS
EXPECTING THE COUNTRIES THAT ARE
TAKING ITS MONEY RIGHT NOW TO
FOLLOW THEIR POLITICAL SYSTEM?

Lynette says NO, I DON'T THINK CHINA IS
ACTIVELY INTERVENING OR SHAPING
THE POLITICAL SYSTEM IN THE HOST
COUNTRIES, BUT CHINA IS
INVESTING A LOT TO IMPROVE
ITSELF POWER IN THE CONTINENT.
IT'S BUILDING 40 CONFUCIUS
PROGRAMS THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY.
BASICALLY TRYING TO IMPROVE THE
IMAGE OF CHINA.

Steve says The Economist MAGAZINE
HAS REPORTED THAT MEMBERS OF
PARTIES AND LABOUR UNIONS AND
MINISTRIES ARE BEING BROUGHT TO
CHINA TO ATTEND COMMUNIST
TRAINING PROGRAMS.
WHAT DO WE INFER FROM THAT?

Lynette says THIS IS ALSO TO LEARN ABOUT
CHINESE CULTURE, IS IT?

Gordon says OR IS IT TO LEARN ABOUT HOW
TO BE A GOOD authoritarian.

Kenneth says I DON'T THINK SO, LYNETTE.

Lynette says YOU CAN LEARN ABOUT CHINESE
CULTURE TOGETHER WITH CHINESE POLITICS.
I THINK THEY GO HAND IN HAND IN
AN ENTIRE PACKAGE.
BUT I DON'T THINK CHINA IS
ACTUALLY INTERVENING IN THE
DOMESTIC POLITICS OF THESE
COUNTRIES WHICH I THINK ARE TWO
SEPARATE THINGS.
WHAT CHINA IS DOING WITH THE
FRONT IN AUSTRALIA, IN SOME
DEVELOPED COUNTRIES, I THINK
THAT IS A SEPARATE QUESTION FROM
INVESTING IN CONFUCIUS INSTITUTE
OR BRINGING THEM TO CLASSES.

Gordon says I THINK A COUPLE THINGS.
FOR INSTANCE, LAST COUPLE YEARS
WE'VE HAD THE CHINESE FOREIGN
MINISTER TALK ABOUT HOW AFRICA
AND CHINA SHOULD SPEAK WITH A
COMMON VOICE, YOU KNOW.
AND THE CHINESE ARE NOT SAYING
WE SHOULD JUST SORT OF FIGURE
THIS OUT TOGETHER.
WHAT THEY'RE SAYING IS THAT
AFRICA SHOULD FOLLOW CHINA'S
LEADS ON EXTERNAL ISSUES.
I AGREE WITH YOU, ON INTERNAL
MATTERS CHINA DOESN'T GO TO A
COUNTRY AND SAY YOU HAVE TO HAVE
YOUR FORM OF POLITICAL SYSTEM.
BUT THE ONE THING THAT'S
EMERGING IS, ESPECIALLY WE HEARD
THIS IN THE WORK REPORT LAST
YEAR, YOU KNOW... I MEAN THE
BEGINNING OF THIS YEAR, IN
MARCH, WAS THAT, LOOK, CHINA NOW
DOES OFFER A MODEL FOR THE REST
OF THE WORLD, AND THIS IS
SOMETHING NEW.
SO YOU KNOW, IT IS TRUE, YES,
CHINA HAS NOT BEEN INTERVENING
IN DOMESTIC POLITICS IN THESE
COUNTRIES FOR THE MOST PART.
BUT WE'RE SEEING A MUCH MORE
AGGRESSIVE, MUCH MORE ASSERTIVE
BEIJING UNDER XI JINGPING AND
THINGS ARE MOVING IN AN
UNWELCOME DIRECTION.
YEAH, WE CAN ARGUE ABOUT ALL
THIS STUFF, WHETHER IT'S
COLONIALISM OR WHATEVER, BUT
CHINA IS MOVING VERY MUCH IN THE
DIRECTION THAT YOU SAW WESTERN
COUNTRIES, YOU KNOW, 60, 70, 100
YEARS AGO.

The caption changes to "Subscribe to The Agenda Podcast: tvo.org/theagenda."

Steve says CAN YOU IMAGINE,
KENNETH, THAT 20 YEARS FROM NOW
THERE WILL BE SOME AFRICAN
COUNTRIES THAT BY THEN WILL HAVE
ADOPTED THESE SORT OF
AUTHORITARIAN DICTATORSHIPS,
ALBEIT OF A CAPITALIST NATURE,
THAT CHINA FEATURES TODAY?

Kenneth says IT'S HARD TO SAY.
IF THAT IS WHAT WILL WORK FOR
YOU AS COUNTRY A, CHINA IS SAY,
IF THAT IS... [INDISCERNIBLE] IF
THAT IS WHAT WILL PRODUCE
PROSPERITY LIKE IN CHINA,
CHINA'S BEEN ABLE TO MOVE
HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE
OUT OF POVERTY.
NOT BECAUSE OF THEIR
DEMOCRATIC... [INDISCERNIBLE]
BUT BECAUSE OF SUCCESS IN THE
ECONOMIC SPHERE.
CHINA IS SAYING IF THAT IS WHAT
MAKES SENSE TO YOU...
[INDISCERNIBLE] IF THE
OPPORTUNITY HAS PRODUCED...
[INDISCERNIBLE] AND DEVASTATION
THAT WE ARE SEEING ACROSS THE
CONTINENT, WHATEVER MAKES SENSE
TO YOU, WE BELIEVE YOU HAVE THE
CAPACITY.
YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE ABLE TO
DEVISE YOUR OWN POLITICAL
PROGRESS.
IF THAT'S WHAT MAKES SENSE TO
YOU IN 20 YEARS TIME, TO A
COUNTRY, SO BE IT.
SINGAPORE, CHINA, THESE ARE
SUCCESSFUL... OVER THE LAST
THREE DECADES.
THEY WERE NOT WESTERN
DEMOCRACIES.
THEY ARE NOT.
BUT THE GOVERNMENT IS SAYING
CHANGES... [INDISCERNIBLE] AND
SOCIAL AND LIVING STANDARDS OF
THE PEOPLE COMPARED TO AFRICA,
WHICH HAS LARGELY ADOPTED, IN
QUOTES, THE WESTERN MODEL.
SO IF CHINA IS SAYING WE'RE NOT
ASKING YOU TO COME WITH US,
WE'RE ASKING YOU TO OPEN YOUR EYES.

Steve says GOTCHA.
LET'S DO... WE JUST GOT A FEW
MINUTES HERE, AND LYNETTE, LET
ME START WITH YOU IN THIS.
I'M CURIOUS ABOUT HOW INTEGRATED
THE TWO POPULATIONS ARE.
HOW MANY CHINESE PEOPLE ARE
MOVING TO AFRICAN COUNTRIES TO
MAKE A LIFE THERE?
HOW MANY AFRICAN COUNTRIES ARE
HAVING FAMILIES MOVE TO CHINA TO
MAKE A LIFE THERE?
HOW MUCH TWO-WAY TRAFFIC IS THERE?

Lynette says I THINK THEY ARE ESTIMATED
ABOUT A MILLION CHINESE
POPULATION IN AFRICA, BUT I
THINK FEWER AFRICANS ARE
ACTUALLY GOING TO CHINA.
SO THOSE GOING TO CHINA ARE ON
SCHOLARSHIP, CHINESE SCHOLARSHIP
TO STUDY CHINESE LANGUAGE AND
VARIOUS THINGS IN CHINA.
BUT A LOT OF CHINESE ARE
ACTUALLY GOING TO AFRICA TO TAKE
ADVANTAGE OF MARKET
OPPORTUNITIES.
CHINA IS A VERY COMPETITIVE
MARKET, AND THEY SEE THAT, YOU
KNOW, THERE'S MORE MONEY TO BE
MADE IN AFRICA.
SO I THINK IN TERMS OF HUMAN
FLOW, POPULATION FLOW, WE SEE
MORE GOING TO AFRICA RATHER THAN
AFRICA GOING TO CHINA.

The caption changes to "Making it home."

Steve says IF YOU'RE FROM AN
AFRICAN COUNTRY AND YOU HAVE
MOVED TO CHINA FOR WHATEVER
REASON, EDUCATION, JOB,
WHATEVER, HOW COMFORTABLE
GENERALLY SPEAKING TO YOU FEEL THERE?

Lynette says I'M NOT GOING TO DENY THAT I
HAVE READ REPORTS OF RACISM,
ENCOUNTERED BY AFRICAN PEOPLE IN
CHINESE CITIES.
THEY DEFINITELY EXIST.
BUT I THINK THE QUESTION IS THE
AFRICAN COMMUNITY HAS ACTUALLY
GROWN SO LARGE THAT IT'S
ACTUALLY A CRITICAL MASS.
SO THEY COULD ACTUALLY MINGLE
AMONG THEMSELVES AND LIVE WITHIN
THE EXPAT COMMUNITY, THAT THERE
IS ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, VERY
LITTLE INTERACTION BETWEEN
AFRICANS AND CHINESE, AND
WHETHER OR NOT THAT IS
NECESSARILY A GOOD THING IS DEBATABLE.

Steve says YOU GET THE LAST
MINUTE ON THIS ONE, GORDON.

Gordon says I AGREE WITH WHAT LYNETTE IS
SAYING.
THE QUESTION IS: IS ANYBODY SAFE
IN CHINA THESE DAYS?
BECAUSE YOU SEE WHAT BEIJING HAS
BEEN DOING TO FOREIGNERS.
BUT AFRICANS HAVE LARGELY STAYED
AMONG THEMSELVES IN CHINA.
THE THING THAT'S REALLY
IMPORTANT ABOUT CHINESE AND
AFRICA, THOUGH, IS THAT MANY
PEOPLE ARE MOVING THERE NOT ONLY
FOR THE ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY BUT
ALSO BECAUSE IT'S FREE AIR AND
YOU HEAR A LOT OF CHINESE TALK
ABOUT THIS, HOW IT'S MUCH BETTER
TO LIVE IN AFRICA BECAUSE THEY
CAN HAVE A BIG SAY IN THEIR OWN LIVES.
IT'S FASCINATING THAT THE
DIFFERENCE IN POLITICAL SYSTEMS.

The caption changes to "Producer: Harrison Lowman, @harrisonlowman."

Steve says GREAT.
THANKS, EVERYBODY, FOR THIS
DISCUSSION TONIGHT.
KENNETH KALU FROM RYERSON
UNIVERSITY.
LYNETTE ONG FROM THE MUNK SCHOOL
OF GLOBAL AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC
POLICY AT U OF T.
GORDON CHANG WHO YOU CAN READ IN
THE DAILY BEAST AND WHO WROTE
ONCE UPON A TIME THE COMING
COLLAPSE OF CHINA.
MY THANKS TO ALL THREE OF YOU
FOR YOUR PARTICIPATION HERE ON
TVO TONIGHT.

All the guests say THANK YOU.

Watch: China's Footprint in Africa