Transcript: Are Liberal Democracies Unravelling? | Oct 24, 2018

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and spotted blue tie.

A caption on screen reads "Are liberal democracies unravelling? @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says NEVER ONE TO ASK SMALL
QUESTIONS - A QUARTER CENTURY
AGO, HE FAMOUSLY ASKED WHETHER
WESTERN LIBERAL DEMOCRACY
REPRESENTED "THE END OF HISTORY."
FRANCIS FUKUYAMA'S NEW LINE OF
INQUIRY TAKES UP ANOTHER TOUGH
QUESTION FOR DEMOCRACY.
CAN IT SURVIVE IDENTITY
POLITICS?
HE ASKS THAT IN HIS NEW BOOK
CALLED, "IDENTITY: THE DEMAND
FOR DIGNITY AND THE POLITICS OF
RESENTMENT."

A picture of the book appears briefly on screen. The cover is white, with orange lines.

Steve continues IT'S A FASCINATING READ, AND
WE'RE PLEASED TO WELCOME BACK TO
OUR PROGRAM:
IN STANFORD, CALIFORNIA:
FRANCIS FUKUYAMA, SENIOR FELLOW
AT THE FREEMAN SPOGLI INSTITUTE
FOR INTERNATIONAL STUDIES AT
STANFORD UNIVERSITY.

Francis is in his seventies, clean-shaven and balding. He's wearing a gray suit and a blue shirt.

Steve continues PROFESSOR, WE'RE ALWAYS GRATEFUL
YOU MAKE TIME FOR US AT TVO.
HOW ARE YOU DOING ON THE LEFT
COAST TONIGHT?

Francis says FINE.
THANKS FOR HAVING ME, STEVE.

Steve says I WANT TO START WITH
THE END OF YOUR SUBTITLE WHICH
TALKS ABOUT THE POLITICS OF
RESENTMENT.
HOW MUCH IN AMERICAN POLITICS
TODAY IS FRANKLY ALL ABOUT THE
POLITICS OF RESENTMENT, IN YOUR
VIEW?

The caption changes to "Francis Fukuyama. Stanford University."
Then, it changes again to "The politics of identity and resentment."

Francis says WELL, UNFORTUNATELY, I THINK
IT'S ALL ABOUT RESENTMENT.
I MEAN YOU LOOK AT THE KAVANAGH
HEARINGS THAT WENT ON.
IT'S ALL ANGER ON EITHER PART OF
THE PROPONENTS OR OPPONENTS OF
THAT JUDICIAL NOMINATION THAT
FELT THAT NORMS WERE BEING
VIOLATED IN THE CASE OF, YOU
KNOW, THE OPPONENTS OF KAVANAGH,
IT REPRESENTED THE FEELING OF
WOMEN THAT THEY WERE NOT BEING
ADEQUATELY RECOGNIZED BECAUSE OF
THE DOWNPLAYING OF SEXUAL
ASSAULT.
SO ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE
SWIRLING RIGHT NOW IN AMERICAN
POLITICS, AND IT'S CONTRIBUTING,
YOU KNOW, MIGHTILY TO THE
FUNDAMENTAL POLARIZATION THAT'S
I THINK PARALYSED AMERICAN
GOVERNMENT.

Steve says AND IN WHAT WAY IS
THIS POLITICS OF RESENTMENT AN
OUTGROWTH OF IDENTITY POLITICS?

Francis says WELL, SO YOU FIRST HAVE TO
UNDERSTAND WHAT IDENTITY
POLITICS IS.
I HAVE A BROAD DEFINITION OF IT.
WE ALL FEEL THAT WE'VE GOT THIS
INNER SOURCE OF DIGNITY THAT
OFTENTIMES IS NOT RECOGNIZED
ADEQUATELY BY THE SURROUNDING
SOCIETY.
SO THAT'S WHAT'S BEHIND THE
hashtag METOO MOVEMENT, WOMEN FEELING
THAT THEIR REAL SELVES ARE NOT
BEING TAKEN SERIOUSLY BY MEN.
THIS CAN TAKE MANY DIFFERENT
FORMS.
IT CAN TAKE THE FORM OF
NATIONALISM WHERE A CERTAIN
REGION FEELS IT HAS A SEPARATE
IDENTITY FROM THE COUNTRY IT'S
EMBEDDED IN.
I THINK YOU'VE GOT A CASE OF
THAT IN CANADA.
IT COULD TAKE THE FORM OF
RELIGION, WHERE I THINK A LOT OF
ISLAMISTS FEEL THAT THEIR
RELIGION IS BEING SLEIGHTED.
THE WHOLE PROBLEM IN THE MIDDLE
EAST IS ABOUT IDENTITY POLITICS
WHERE PEOPLE ARE STUCK IN THESE
CATEGORIES LIKE ETHNICITY,
RELIGION, SECT, REGION, TRIBE
THAT DETERMINE HOW THEY'RE GOING
TO ACT.
AND I THINK UNFORTUNATELY WHAT'S
HAPPENED IN THE UNITED STATES IS
THAT WE ARE EVOLVING TOWARDS
THAT KIND OF TRIBALISM IN WHICH
WE BELIEVE THE WAY WE'RE BORN
DETERMINES WHETHER WE'RE RED OR
BLUE, HOW WE'RE GOING TO VOTE IN
ELECTIONS, AND NOW IT'S GOTTEN
TO THE POINT WHERE IT'S
AFFECTING THE WAY WE INTERPRET
BASIC FACTS.
SO THAT WAS ONE OF THE
FASCINATING THINGS IN THOSE
HEARINGS THAT, YOU KNOW, THE
SAME EVENTS, THE ACCOUNT OF THE
SAME EVENTS PRODUCED COMPLETELY
DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS
DEPENDING ON WHICH TRIBE YOU
WERE A MEMBER OF.
SO THAT'S THE SENSE IN WHICH I
THINK IDENTITY HAS REALLY BEGUN
TO... YOU KNOW, IT'S LIKE A
DISEASE.
IT'S BEGUN TO INFECT DEMOCRATIC
POLITICS, NOT JUST IN THE UNITED
STATES BUT IN MANY OTHER
DEVELOPED COUNTRIES AS WELL.

Steve says AND IF WE GO BACK
INTO HISTORY, HOW FAR BACK DO WE
HAVE TO GO TO FIND THE ORIGINS
OF THIS POLITICS OF RESENTMENT?

The caption changes to "Francis Fukuyama. Author, 'Identity.'"

Francis says IT'S ALWAYS EXISTED.
PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS FELT THEY
HAVE AN INNER WORTH AND THEY
ALWAYS HAVE SOUGHT RECOGNITION
OF IT.
BUT I THINK THE MODERN FORM IS A
LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT BECAUSE WE
VALUE THAT INNER SELF MUCH MORE
THAN WE VALUE THE SURROUNDING
SOCIETY.
SO, YOU KNOW, A COUPLE HUNDRED
YEARS AGO, IF A WOMAN FELT
UNRECOGNIZED, SHE WOULD HAVE
BEEN TOLD, WELL, JUST, YOU KNOW,
STAY IN YOUR PLACE.
YOU KNOW, WE'RE NOT GOING TO
CHANGE.
YOU HAVE TO ADAPT TO OUR RULES.
WHEREAS TODAY, THE FEELING IS
THAT THE WHOLE OF SOCIETY NEEDS
TO CHANGE AND IN FACT THAT'S
WHAT'S GOING ON RIGHT NOW.
IT'S A WHOLESALE CULTURAL SHIFT
IN THE ATTITUDES OF MEN AND HOW
THEY TREAT WOMEN, ESPECIALLY NOW
THAT WOMEN HAVE MOVED INTO THE
WORKPLACE.
AND SO THAT'S SOMETHING THAT'S
QUITE NEW.
WHAT'S ALSO VERY NEW IN AMERICAN
POLITICS IS THIS RIGHT WING
ADOPTION OF THIS IDENTITY
FRAMING.
SO MANY OF THE PEOPLE WHO VOTED
FOR DONALD TRUMP VOTED ON THE
BASIS OF THESE KINDS OF
RESENTMENTS THAT, YOU KNOW,
WHITE VOTERS, FOR EXAMPLE, ARE
INCREASINGLY FEELING THAT THEY
ARE A KIND OF UNDERREPRESENTED,
UNRECOGNIZED GROUP IN AMERICAN
SOCIETY, AND THAT'S A VERY
TOXIC, I THINK, DEVELOPMENT.

Steve says WELL, LET ME PICK UP
ON THAT BECAUSE BARACK OBAMA DID
SAY EARLIER THIS SUMMER:
"SOMETIMES I WONDER WHETHER I
WAS 10 OR 20 YEARS TOO EARLY,"
MEANING THAT, YOU KNOW, BIG
CHUNKS OF WHITE AMERICA WERE NOT
READY FOR AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN
PRESIDENT YET.
DO YOU THINK HE MIGHT BE RIGHT
ABOUT THAT?

The caption changes to "Francis Fukuyama, @fukuyamafrancis."

Francis says I'M AFRAID THERE'S A LOT OF
TRUTH TO THAT.
I THINK PEOPLE WERE PREMATURELY
CELEBRATING THE EMERGENCE OF A
POST-RACIAL AMERICA IN 2008 WHEN
HE WAS FIRST ELECTED.
I THINK WHAT HAPPENED IS HIS
ELECTION HAD ALL THESE FEELINGS
OF DISPLACEMENT ON THE PART OF
THE FORMER WHITE MAINSTREAM IN
AMERICA AND IT'S NOW COMING OUT
IN VERY CRUDE WAYS AND
UNFORTUNATELY IT'S BEING EGGED
ON BY A PRESIDENT WHO SEEMS TO,
YOU KNOW, SHARE A LOT OF THOSE
RACIAL RESENTMENTS.
AND SO THAT'S... YOU KNOW,
THAT'S A REALLY TOXIC MIXTURE.
PRESIDENTS ARE ACTUALLY SUPPOSED
TO TRY TO UNITE PEOPLE AROUND,
YOU KNOW, A SET OF COMMON
VALUES, AND UNFORTUNATELY, WE'VE
GOT A LEADER THAT'S DOING
EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Steve says MORE ON HIM LATER.
YOU DO ASK A LOT OF BIG
QUESTIONS IN YOUR BOOK, AND I
WANT TO ASK ONE OF THEM RIGHT
NOW, EVEN THOUGH THIS IS A
FAIRLY VAST QUESTION.
YOU'VE WRITTEN THAT THE STRUGGLE
OF MODERN LIBERALISM WAS TO GET
AWAY FROM BIOLOGICAL
CHARACTERISTICS.
THAT IS APPARENTLY NOT WHAT IS
HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.
WHY NOT?

Francis says WELL, SO IDENTITY POLITICS IN
THE MODERN ERA REALLY STARTS IN
THE 1960s WITH ALL THE BIG
SOCIAL MOVEMENTS THAT BEGIN TO
ROCK THE WESTERN WORLD.
SO ON BEHALF OF RACIAL
MINORITIES, WOMEN, THE LGBT
COMMUNITY, THE DISABLED... SO
ALL OF THESE GROUPS WERE
MARGINALIZED.
THEY WERE TREATED AS GROUPS.
PREJUDICE, YOU KNOW, OCCURRED
BECAUSE THEY WERE MEMBERS OF
THESE BIOLOGICAL FIXED
CATEGORIES, AND SO THEY
RESPONDED SAYING, WE WANT TO
PUSH BACK IN THE WAYS THAT ARE
SPECIFIC TO OUR GROUP.
BUT OVER TIME I THINK THESE
CATEGORIES BEGAN TO HARDEN, YOU
KNOW, IT CREATED THE ASSUMPTION
THAT SIMPLE MEMBERSHIP IN YOUR
GROUP WOULD DETERMINE WHAT YOU
THOUGHT ABOUT POLITICS, ABOUT
CULTURE AND THE LIKE, AND IT'S
NOW SHIFTED OVER FROM THE LEFT
TO THE RIGHT WHERE THAT KIND OF
THINKING HAS, YOU KNOW, NOW
DOMINATED THE WAY THAT, YOU
KNOW, THE FORMER MAINSTREAM
THINKS ABOUT ITSELF.
SO THAT'S THE SENSE IN WHICH WE,
YOU KNOW, HAVE A NEW KIND OF
POLITICS OF IDENTITY THAT'S
REPLACED THE OLD IDEOLOGICAL
SPECTRUM OF THE 20TH CENTURY,
AND IT'S REPLACED IT IN A WAY
THAT, YOU KNOW, IF YOUR THINKING
IS DETERMINED BY THE WAY YOU'RE
BORN, BY YOUR SKIN COLOUR, BY
YOUR GENDER, BY YOUR SEXUAL
ORIENTATION, THAT MAKES POLITICS
MUCH MORE RIGID AND
NON-NEGOTIABLE.

Steve says THIS IS ALSO PRETTY
CLEARLY NOT JUST AN AMERICAN
ISSUE.
WE LOOK AROUND THE WORLD RIGHT
NOW.
WE SEE VLADIMIR PUTIN, WE
ERDOGAN IN TURKEY, WE SEE THE
BREXIT VOTE WHICH WENT THAT WAY,
DONALD TRUMP, OF COURSE, ORBAN,
EASTERN EUROPE.
IS THERE SOMETHING THAT COMBINES
ALL THESE ELEMENTS?

Francis says I THINK SO.
YOU'RE SEEING THE EMERGENCE
SIMULTANEOUSLY OF POPULIST
MOVEMENTS ALL OVER THE WORLD.
I THINK THAT THEY ARE TRIGGERED
ULTIMATELY BY ECONOMIC CAUSES.
SO WE'VE HAD THIS 40-YEAR PERIOD
OF EXPANDING GLOBALIZATION WHERE
THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF MOVEMENT
OF CAPITAL, OF GOODS AND
SERVICES AND OF PEOPLE ACROSS
INTERNATIONAL BORDERS, AND
THAT'S CAUSED A LOT OF
DISRUPTION.
IT'S HURT THE INTERESTS OF, YOU
KNOW, THE WORKING CLASS IN MANY
DEVELOPED COUNTRIES WHOSE JOBS
HAVE BEEN SHIPPED TO CHINA OR
BANGLADESH OR OTHER DEVELOPING
COUNTRIES, AND IT'S LED TO A
LOSS OF STATUS.
IT'S ALSO LED TO HUGE FLOWS OF
PEOPLE, SO THAT THE NUMBER OF
FOREIGN-BORN IN MANY RICH
COUNTRIES HAS INCREASED VERY
DRAMATICALLY, AND THAT KIND OF
CULTURAL CHANGE, COUPLED WITH
THE PERCEIVED ECONOMIC LOSSES, I
THINK IS WHAT'S TRIGGERED A LOT
OF THE RESENTMENT THAT YOU'RE
NOW SEEING IN THESE BACKLASH
VOTES FOR POPULIST PARTIES.

Steve says IT'S PROBABLY TOO
FACILE TO SAY THIS IS A FAILURE
OF LIBERALS AND LIBERAL
DEMOCRACY TO, WELL, AS WE WOULD
SAY IN CANADA, PUT THE PUCK IN
THE NET, YOU KNOW?
TO PROVIDE DELIVERABLES TO
PEOPLE IN ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT
COUNTRIES.
BECAUSE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY
ISN'T THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT
I GREW UP WITH OR THAT YOU GREW
UP WITH EITHER ANYMORE.
SO IS THIS JUST A VAST REJECTION
OF ALL KIND OF ESTABLISHMENT
ELITES IN WESTERN COUNTRIES THAT
WE'RE SEEING RIGHT NOW?
IS THAT HOW YOU READ IT?

Francis says WELL, I WOULDN'T OVERESTIMATE
THE STRENGTH OF THIS MOVEMENT
BECAUSE, FIRST OF ALL, HILLARY
CLINTON IN THE LAST ELECTION IN
2016 WON, YOU KNOW, THE POPULAR
VOTE BY ALMOST 3 MILLION VOTES.
AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE CORE
SUPPORT FOR DONALD TRUMP, YOU
KNOW, IT'S NEVER BEEN MORE THAN
ABOUT 40 percent OF THE WHOLE
POPULATION.
SIMILARLY, I THINK IN EUROPE, A
LOT OF THE POPULIST PARTIES
STILL REMAIN MINORITIES.
THEY'RE VERY ANGRY AND THEY'RE
VERY NOISY AND ACTIVE, BUT THEY
DO NOT REPRESENT THE DOMINANT
VIEW IN THOSE COUNTRIES.
SO I WOULDN'T, YOU KNOW, SAY
THAT THIS IS AN INEVITABLE WAVE
THAT'S GOING TO OVERWHELM, YOU
KNOW, LIBERAL DEMOCRACY ACROSS
THE WORLD.

Steve says NO, I HEAR WHAT
YOU'RE SAYING.
BUT HAVING SAID THAT, THIS GROUP
OF PEOPLE CLEARLY HAS NO TIME
FOR THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
ANYMORE.
HILLARY CLINTON GOT 3 MILLION
MORE VOTES.
BUT MOST OF THEM WERE SORT OF
CLUSTERED ON THE COASTS AMONG
MORE EDUCATED, MORE ELITIST TYPE
PEOPLE, IF I CAN PUT IT THAT
WAY.
AND THEN THE REPUBLICANS UNDER
GEORGE W. BUSH GAVE US THE IRAQ
WAR.
ONCE AGAIN, BUSH WAS IN POWER
WHEN THE GREAT RECESSION CAME IN.

Francis says NO, THAT'S RIGHT.

Steve says AND, YOU KNOW, MAIN
STREET LOOKS AND SEES NOBODY
WENT TO JAIL BECAUSE OF THE
GREAT RECESSION.
MAIN STREET LOOKS AND SEES THAT
THERE ARE STILL, YOU KNOW, THE
IRAQ WAR WAS A DISASTER WITH NO
APPARENT CONSEQUENCES PAID
EXCEPT BY THOSE FAMILIES WHO
SENT SOLDIERS OVER.
SO HOW MUCH OF THE
DISILLUSIONMENT IS ROOTED IN
THOSE EVENTS IN PARTICULAR.

The caption changes to "The politics of identity and resentment."

Francis says OH, NO, SO THERE'S NO
QUESTION, THAT IN A WAY,
POPULISM IS A GOOD THING BECAUSE
PEOPLE CAN EXPRESS THEIR
UNHAPPINESS WITH ELITE POLICIES.
AND YOU'RE RIGHT, THE ELITE
POLICIES FAILED IN PRECISELY
THOSE WAYS.
IN EUROPE YOU HAD THE EURO
CRISIS.
ANOTHER ELITE POLICY THAT WENT
BAD.
YOU HAD THE MIGRANT CRISIS IN
2015 AFTER THE SYRIAN CIVIL WAR.
SO THERE WERE A LOT OF
SCREW-UPS, AND I THINK THAT
THERE'S GOOD REASON THAT PEOPLE
SHOULD BE ANGRY ABOUT THEM.
I THINK THAT THAT'S NOW LED TO A
TRANSFORMATION ON THE RIGHT
WHERE IT'S NO LONGER, YOU KNOW,
DOMINATED BY THE BUSINESS
ELITES, YOU KNOW, WALL STREET
JOURNAL, THE OLD WALL STREET
JOURNAL THAT WAS IN FAVOUR OF
FREE TRADE AND OPEN IMMIGRATION.
IT'S NOW BECOME MUCH MORE
NATIONALIST AND CLOSED.
SO THAT TRANSFORMATION HAS
DEFINITELY TAKEN PLACE.

Steve says LET'S TALK FOR A
MOMENT ABOUT POLITICAL
CORRECTNESS BECAUSE, YOU KNOW,
YOU CAN SAY A LOT OF THINGS
ABOUT DONALD TRUMP, BUT ONE
THING I NEVER HEAR ANYBODY SAY,
GEEZ, I WONDER WHAT HE THINKS
ABOUT THIS.
WE LIKE TO DEAL WITH EMPIRICALLY
PROVABLE FACTS ON THIS PROGRAM
AND I SUSPECT IT IS AN
EMPIRICALLY PROVABLE FACT THAT
DONALD TRUMP, NOT HIS POLICIES
BUT AS A PERSON, IS A PRETTY
DISGRACEFUL PERSON FROM TIME TO
TIME.
BUT HAVING SAID THAT, HOW MUCH
OF HIS POPULARITY IS ROOTED IN
THE FACT THAT HE'S JUST GOING TO
TELL IT LIKE IT IS, WHETHER YOU
LIKE IT OR NOT?

Francis says WELL, THAT'S... YOU KNOW, HE
WAS BRILLIANT IN HIS USE OF
TWITTER BECAUSE PREVIOUS
PRESIDENTS THIS TWITTER FEEDS
BUT THEY WERE ALL DONE BY
STAFFERS.
THEY'RE VERY CAREFULLY VETTED,
YOU KNOW, FOR CONTENT, TO MAKE
SURE THEY DIDN'T OFFEND
PARTICULAR GROUPS.
AND TRUMP DOESN'T CARE.
SO I THINK EVERYBODY HAS THIS
FEELING THAT WHAT HE SAYS ON
TWITTER IS THE REAL DONALD
TRUMP, AND I THINK A LOT OF
PEOPLE APPRECIATE THAT BECAUSE
THERE IS THIS REAL HOSTILITY
THAT PEOPLE HAVE TO THE KIND OF
POLITICAL CORRECTNESS THAT HAS
EMERGED AROUND THE PROGRESSIVE
VERSION OF IDENTITY POLITICS,
WHERE YOU HAVE TO BE SO CAREFUL
ABOUT WHAT YOU SAY ABOUT, YOU
KNOW, VIRTUALLY EVERY GROUP, A
LOT OF WHOM YOU DIDN'T EVEN KNOW
EXISTED, YOU KNOW, A FEW MONTHS
AGO.
AND SO THAT'S ANOTHER SENSE IN
WHICH I THINK THE IDENTITY
POLITICS ON THE LEFT HAS
PROMOTED A SIMILAR KIND OF
POLITICS OF AUTHENTICITY ON THE
RIGHT, WHERE PEOPLE WILL SAY,
WELL, I MAY NOT AGREE WITH WHAT
TRUMP SAID, BUT AT LEAST, YOU
KNOW, HE'S NOT AFRAID TO GO
AGAINST PREVAILING OPINION.

Steve says AND WE HAVE TO
RESPECT THAT VIEW, DON'T WE?
IF PEOPLE FEEL THAT THEY LIKE
TRUMP BECAUSE THEY'RE TIRED OF
POLITICIANS BEING MEALLY-MOUTHED
AND LYING TO THEM OVER THE
YEARS, WE HAVE TO CREATE SOME
SPACE FOR THEM FOR THAT VIEW, DO
WE NOT?

Francis says WELL, IT'S A DELICATE LINE TO
WALK BECAUSE THERE'S ACTUALLY A
REASON FOR POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.
YOU KNOW, I THINK A LOT OF
PEOPLE HARBOUR RACIAL FEELINGS
THAT ARE REALLY PRETTY NASTY,
AND IT'S PROBABLY A GOOD THING
THAT THEY KEEP QUIET ABOUT IT,
AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S
HAPPENED... AND ALSO I THINK THE
INTERNET AND SOCIAL MEDIA HAS
ALSO FACILITATED THIS BECAUSE OF
THE ANONYMITY THAT IT PROVIDES.
PEOPLE ARE JUST NOT CONSTRAINED
THE WAY THEY USED TO BE.
AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S LED TO A
KIND OF RAPID SHIFT FROM
EXCESSIVE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS
TO THIS OPEN-ENDED, YOU KNOW,
SAY WHATEVER YOU FEEL, AND THAT,
YOU KNOW, HAS LED TO A REAL
BREAKDOWN IN CIVILITY.
AGAIN, I THINK YOU SAW THAT IN
THE KAVANAGH HEARINGS, THE
DEGREE OF ANGER EXPRESSED AND
THE KIND OF OUTRIGHT HATRED ON
BOTH SIDES.
SO I THINK WE'VE GOT TO PUT THAT
GENIE BACK IN THE BOTTLE.
I THINK WE CAN APPRECIATE
EXCESSIVE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS
FOR WHAT IT IS, BUT I DO THINK
THERE IS A REASON WE OUGHT TO BE
A LITTLE BIT CONSTRAINED.

Steve says UNDERSTOOD.
AT THE RISK OF OVERSIMPLIFYING
THIS, I THINK WHEN I WAS GROWING
UP, IT WAS MOSTLY ABOUT LEFT
VERSUS RIGHT, THE TWO BIG
CLEAVAGES IN SOCIETY, AND
NOWADAYS IT SEEMS TO BE FAR MORE
ABOUT GENDER AND RACE.
WOULD YOU RECOMMEND THAT WE GO
BACK TO THE WAY IT WAS?

The caption changes to "The problem with equality."

Francis says I WOULD LOVE FOR THE POLITICS
OF WESTERN DEMOCRACIES TO GO
BACK TO THE OLD 20TH CENTURY
CLEAVAGES WHERE YOU'RE ARGUING
OVER, YOU KNOW, ECONOMIC POLICY,
WHETHER YOU SHOULD HAVE MORE
REDISTRIBUTION OR MORE FREEDOM,
MORE PRO-CAPITALIST, MORE
PRO-MARKET POLICIES OR THE
OPPOSITE.
THE TROUBLE WITH IDENTITY IS
THAT, YOU KNOW, THE WAY YOU'RE
BORN DETERMINES HOW YOU THINK
ABOUT THINGS, AND ONCE YOU GET
INTO THAT KIND OF POLITICS, IT
BREEDS INTOLERANCE, IT BREEDS AN
INABILITY TO DELIBERATE ABOUT
COMPLEX POLICY ISSUES BECAUSE
YOU'RE DEBATING OVER THESE FIXED
CATEGORIES.
I THINK THAT IF YOU WANT TO SEE
IDENTITY POLITICS IN ACTION,
JUST GO TO THE MIDDLE EAST WHERE
YOU'VE GOT SEVERAL STATES, YOU
KNOW, SYRIA, LIBYA, AFGHANISTAN,
IRAQ, ALL OF WHOM HAVE BASICALLY
SUFFERED STATE COLLAPSE BECAUSE
THEY'RE ALL ABOUT IDENTITY
POLITICS.
YOU KNOW, THE SECT, THE REGION,
THE TRIBE THAT YOU'RE BORN INTO
DETERMINES HOW YOU'RE GOING TO
APPROACH POLITICS, AND THEY
CAN'T AGREE ON THE EXISTENCE OF
AN OVERARCHING POLITICAL
COMMUNITY THAT THEY BELONG TO,
WHICH IS WHY YOU'VE HAD STATE
FAILURE THERE.
SO, YOU KNOW, WE'RE NOT CLOSE TO
THAT POINT YET.
BUT THAT'S REALLY I THINK A
WARNING SIGN OF WHAT LIES DOWN
THE ROAD IF YOU CONTINUE TO
INSIST ON THESE IDENTITY
CATEGORIES.

Steve says SO I SEE IN YOU A
YEARNING FOR THE NEXT GREAT
AMERICAN LEADER TO BE SOMEBODY
WHO CAN GET US OUT OF OUR
TRIBES; IS THAT RIGHT?

Francis says WELL, I THINK WHAT WE NEED IS
TO... YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T GET
AWAY FROM IDENTITY BECAUSE
THAT'S THE WAY WE THINK ABOUT
OURSELVES.
BUT YOU CAN HAVE NARROWER ONES
OR YOU CAN HAVE BROADER ONES,
AND I THINK WE NEED TO HAVE AN
INTEGRATIVE IDENTITY THAT GIVES
AMERICANS SOMETHING TO BELIEVE
IN IN COMMON.
AND IT'S TRUE FOR CANADA AND
EVERY OTHER DEMOCRACY.
IF YOU DON'T HAVE A SENSE OF
NATIONAL IDENTITY, YOU BASICALLY
DON'T HAVE A DEMOCRATIC
COMMUNITY, BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE
TO HAVE A COMMON SET OF VALUES
AND BELIEFS IN WHAT'S LEGITIMATE
IN TERMS OF POLITICS IF THEY'RE
ACTUALLY GOING TO CO-EXIST.
AND SO I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING
THAT IS CREATED BY LEADERS.
THAT'S WHAT LEADERS DO.
UNFORTUNATELY, A LOT OF OUR
RECENT LEADERS HAVE BEEN
DIVIDERS.
I THINK OUR PRESIDENT IS THE
DIVIDER IN CHIEF, WHO LOVES TO
PICK ON THESE RACIAL AND OTHER,
YOU KNOW, ISSUES ON WHICH
AMERICANS DISAGREE VERY
STRONGLY, AND THAT DOESN'T HAVE
TO BE.
SO I DO THINK THAT THIS IS A
SITUATION THAT COULD BE TURNED
AROUND BY THE RIGHT KIND OF
POLITICAL LEADER.

Steve says YOU DO HAVE A NUMBER
OF PROVOCATIVE STATEMENTS IN
YOUR BOOK AND I WANT TO PLUCK
ONE OF THEM OUT RIGHT NOW, READ
IT TO YOU, AND FOLLOW UP WITH A
QUESTION.
HERE'S YOU IN YOUR BOOK "IDENTITY."

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Equality for show." The quote reads "Being a citizen of a liberal democracy does not mean that people will actually be treated with equal respect either by their government or by other citizens."
Quoted from Francis Fukuyama, "Identity." 2018.

Steve says I GUESS THE
FOLLOW-UP QUESTION IS: WHY NOT?
SHOULDN'T THAT BE PART OF THE
DEAL IN A LIBERAL DEMOCRACY?

Francis says WELL, IT SHOULD BE.
THAT'S AN ASPIRATION.
BUT THE THING IS, YOU KNOW,
PEOPLE LIVE IN A SOCIETY WHERE
THEY'VE GOT PREJUDICES, WHERE,
YOU KNOW, DIFFERENT GROUPS OF
PEOPLE BEHAVE DIFFERENTLY, THEY
HAVE, YOU KNOW, DIFFERENT
CULTURAL HABITS AND THE LIKE,
AND SO I DON'T THINK THAT IT'S
REALLY PLAUSIBLE THAT EVERYBODY
IN THOSE SOCIETIES ACTUALLY
FOLLOWS THIS INJUNCTION TO TREAT
EVERYONE WITH COMPLETELY EQUAL
RESPECT.
FURTHERMORE, WE ACTUALLY DESERVE
DIFFERENT DEGREES OF RESPECT.
YOU KNOW, A MURDERER OR A RAPIST
DOESN'T DESERVE THE KIND OF
RESPECT THAT A LAW-ABIDING
CITIZEN DESERVES.
AND SO I THINK THAT IT'S JUST
INEVITABLE THAT YOU'RE GOING TO
GET THESE ASSAULTS ON DIGNITY,
WHERE PEOPLE FEEL THAT THEY'RE
NOT BEING SUFFICIENTLY
APPRECIATED, AND THAT CAN BE
EMBEDDED IN GOVERNMENT POLICIES
AS WELL BECAUSE, YOU KNOW,
GOVERNMENTS HAVE INCREASINGLY
STARTED TO TREAT PEOPLE AS
MEMBERS OF GROUPS RATHER THAN
SIMPLY AS INDIVIDUALS.

Steve says OKAY.
I'M GOING TO DO A FOLLOW-UP ON
THAT, BECAUSE LET'S STIPULATE
THAT ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL.
SO NOT CRIMINALS, NOT RAPISTS,
NOT MUGGERS AND SO ON.
ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, DO YOU
NOT THINK THAT GOVERNMENTS
SHOULD ASPIRE TO TREAT ALL OF
THEIR CITIZENS EQUALLY?

Francis says OH, OF COURSE.
NO, THAT'S PART OF WHAT IT MEANS
TO BE A LIBERAL DEMOCRACY AND TO
HAVE A RULE OF LAW.
NOBODY IS ABOVE THE LAW.
EVERYBODY IS TREATED
IMPERSONALLY BY OUR
INSTITUTIONS.
SO THAT'S A FUNDAMENTAL OF A
MODERN GOVERNMENT.
ALL I'M SAYING IS THAT, YOU
KNOW, GOVERNMENTS SIMPLY FAIL TO
DO THAT.
YOU KNOW, LOOK AT AMERICA.
I MEAN, OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM.
IN THEORY IT'S SUPPOSED TO GIVE
EVERYBODY AN EQUAL EDUCATION,
BUT THE WAY IT'S FUNDED, THE WAY
IT'S ORGANIZED, MEANS THAT IF
YOU LIVE IN AN INNER CITY, YOU
GET A MUCH WORSE EDUCATION THAN
IF YOU LIVE IN AN AFFLUENT
SUBURB.
SO THERE ARE MANY WAYS IN WHICH
MODERN GOVERNMENTS FAIL TO
ACHIEVE THAT EQUALITY OF RESPECT
THAT, IN THEORY, IS DUE ALL OF
ITS CITIZENS.

Steve says WELL, THIS NEXT
QUESTION MAY BE A CASE OF SIX OF
ONE, HALF A DOZEN OF ANOTHER.
LET ME ASK IT ANYWAY.
WHAT DO YOU THINK IS A MORE
ACCURATE DESCRIPTION OF THE
PROBLEM OF LIBERALISM AND
EQUALITY NOWADAYS?
IS IT OVERPROMISING OR IS IT
UNDERDELIVERING?

Francis says WELL, IT'S... I WOULD SAY
THAT IT'S UNDERDELIVERING IN A
COUPLE OF SENSES.
SO ONE IS THAT IN FACT YOU HAVE
HAD THESE BIG ELITE POLICY
MISTAKES THAT HAVE REALLY
DISAPPOINTED PEOPLE.
IT'S UNDERDELIVERED IN TERMS OF
ECONOMIC EQUALITY.
SO WE HAVE PERMITTED IN MANY
ADVANCED COUNTRIES THESE VAST
GAPS TO OPEN UP BETWEEN, YOU
KNOW, THE ONE PERCENT AND THE 9.
EVERY COUNTRY HAS A LAYER OF
OLIGARCHS THAT REALLY HAVE UNDUE
INFLUENCE IN POLITICS AND IN
SOCIETY.
AND THESE ARE ALL THINGS THAT
COULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTED BY
DIFFERENT SORTS OF POLICIES.
SO I THINK THAT REALLY THE...
IT'S THE PERFORMANCE OF
GOVERNMENTS THAT IS MORE THE
ISSUE THAN OVERPROMISING.
THE IDEALS ARE FINE, AND I THINK
WE SHOULD STICK WITH THEM.

Steve says LET'S CONSIDER
ANOTHER WAY OF LOOKING AT THESE
CLEAVAGES, AND THAT IS, I GUESS
DONALD TRUMP HAS CERTAINLY
BROUGHT TO THE FORE THE NOTION
THAT THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO
SEE THEMSELVES AS AMERICANS, AS
NATIONALISTS FIRST AND ONLY, AND
THEN THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE WHO
ARE MORE GLOBAL IN THEIR
ORIENTATION.
I GUESS SOME PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE
IN THE EUROPEAN UNION, SOME ARE
PART OF THE REMAIN SIDE IN THE
UNITED KINGDOM.
THOSE OF US WHO ARE FROM
SOMEWHERE AS OPPOSED TO THOSE OF
US WHO ARE FROM ANYWHERE.
HOW USEFUL IS THAT AS A WAY OF
LOOKING AT THIS THING?

The caption changes to "Too much universalism."

Francis says NO, IT'S VERY USEFUL.
THAT WAS A DISTINCTION MADE BY
DAVID GOODHEART IN A RECENT BOOK
WHERE SOME PEOPLE JUST HAVE A
MORE COSMOPOLITAN OUTLOOK.
THEY DEPEND... THEY TRAVEL.
THEY DEPEND ON FOREIGN PRODUCTS
AND FRIENDS AND SO FORTH.
AND OTHERS ARE MUCH MORE ROOTED
IN A SINGLE PLACE, AND THAT
ACTUALLY CORRESPONDS TO A BIG
CLASS DISTINCTION.
SO THE PEOPLE IN THE "ANYWHERE."
CATEGORY USUALLY HAVE A COLLEGE
EDUCATION OR HIGHER.
THOSE THAT ARE ROOTED IN ONE
PLACE, YOU KNOW, TEND TO BE LESS
EDUCATED.
AND THAT'S A HUGE DIVISION IN
SOCIETY.
AND BOTH, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE
PROBLEMS IN BOTH OF THOSE
PERSPECTIVES.
BECAUSE I THINK THE ANYWHERES,
THE COSMOPOLITAN ANYWHERES, TEND
TO LOOK DOWN ON THE PEOPLE THAT
ARE ROOTED.
THEY DON'T REALLY APPRECIATE
THEIR PERSPECTIVES AND THEIR
PROBLEMS, AND IT GENERATES THIS
INCREDIBLE RESENTMENT, WHICH YOU
SAW THEN EXPRESSED IN THE BREXIT
VOTE, IN THE VOTE FOR TRUMP, AND
THE LIKE.

Steve says HERE'S ANOTHER THEME
YOU RAISE IN THE BOOK, AND I'D
LIKE YOU TO JUST AMPLIFY ON THIS
A BIT AS WELL.
YOU SUGGESTED THAT UNIVERSAL
DIGNITY, AFFORDED THROUGH HUMAN
RIGHTS, IS NOT SUFFICIENTLY
SATISFYING FOR MANY.
WHY DO YOU THINK?

Francis says WELL, SO THAT'S WHAT A
DEMOCRACY DOES IN THEORY, RIGHT?
IT SAYS YOU'RE A CITIZEN, AND
THEREFORE WE GRANT YOU RIGHTS OF
SPEECH, ASSOCIATION, FREEDOM OF
RELIGION, YOU CAN VOTE, AND SO
FORTH.
AND I THINK IF YOU LIVE IN AN
AUTHORITARIAN COUNTRY, THOSE ARE
REALLY VALUABLE, RIGHT?
SO IF YOU ARE LIVING IN BURMA OR
TUNISIA OR UKRAINE OR A COUNTRY
THAT REALLY DIDN'T ALLOW PEOPLE
TO PARTICIPATE, THAT'S SOMETHING
VERY PRECIOUS.
BUT, YOU KNOW, ONCE YOU GET IT,
YOU START THINKING TO YOURSELF,
OKAY, WELL, OF COURSE I'M
TREATED THIS WAY, BUT I WANT
SOMETHING MORE, YOU KNOW?
I'M A MEMBER OF A GROUP THAT'S
NOT BEING RESPECTED BECAUSE OF
MY GENDER, BECAUSE OF MY, YOU
KNOW, ETHNIC BACKGROUND, BECAUSE
OF THE REGION IN WHICH I LIVE,
AND SO YOU BEGIN TO DEMAND OTHER
MORE PARTICULAR FORMS OF
RECOGNITION.
FOR EXAMPLE, IN EASTERN EUROPE,
THE GENERATION THAT LIVED UNDER
COMMUNISM I THINK, YOU KNOW,
FELT INTENSELY THAT THEY WANTED
THESE UNIVERSAL EQUAL RIGHTS
THAT A DEMOCRACY PROVIDES.
BUT VIRTUALLY, YOU KNOW, A GREAT
MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE LIVING IN
THOSE COUNTRIES NOW... POLAND,
HUNGARY, AND SO FORTH... WERE
BORN AFTER THE COLLAPSE OF
COMMUNISM.
THEY HAVE NO PERSONAL EXPERIENCE
OF THAT KIND OF DICTATORSHIP,
AND THEY CAN THINK TO
THEMSELVES, WELL, THE REAL
PROBLEM THAT'S SUPPRESSING ME IS
THE EUROPEAN UNION, IT'S
BRUSSELS.
AND THEY DON'T REALLY HAVE A
POINT OF COMPARISON LIKE THEIR
PARENTS DID, THAT WOULD, YOU
KNOW, ALLOW THEM TO APPRECIATE
THAT UNIVERSAL FORM OF
CITIZENSHIP RATHER THAN THESE
PARTICULAR FORMS OF RECOGNITION
THAT THEY'RE SEEKING.

Steve says IN WHICH CASE, IF
THIS IS THE MUCK WE NOW FIND
OURSELVES IN, LET'S GO TO WHAT
WE CAN DO TO GET OURSELVES OUT
OF THIS MUCK, AND YOU HAVE PUT
FORWARD SOME IDEAS IN THE BOOK.
FOR EXAMPLE, IMMIGRATION REFORM,
CIVICS EDUCATION, AND NATIONAL
SERVICE.
IF THOSE THREE THINGS, WHICH
HAVE BEEN... WELL, IMMIGRATION
REFORM IN PARTICULAR...
ABSOLUTELY INTRACTABLE IN THE
UNITED STATES OVER THE LAST
COUPLE OF DECADES, BUT IF
SOMEHOW YOU'RE ABLE TO WAVE A
MAGIC WAND AND MAKE THESE THREE
THINGS HAPPEN, WHAT WOULD BE THE
VALUE OF DOING IT?

The caption changes to "What is to be done?"

Francis says WELL, ALL OF THEM I THINK
SOLVE DIFFERENT KINDS OF
PROBLEMS.
IMMIGRATION REFORM... YOU KNOW,
OPPOSITION TO IMMIGRATION IS
ACTUALLY WHAT'S DRIVING PEOPLE
TO VOTE FOR THESE POPULIST
PARTIES, BOTH IN THE UNITED
STATES AND IN EUROPE.
I THINK ACTUALLY, FRANKLY, IF WE
HAD SOMETHING MORE LIKE A
CANADIAN SKILL-BASED IMMIGRATION
POLICY AND BETTER ENFORCEMENT,
IT WOULD TAKE THE WIND OUT OF
THE SAILS OF A LOT OF THE
ANTI-IMMIGRATION GROUPS IN THE U.S.
NATIONAL SERVICE I THINK IS
IMPORTANT BECAUSE IN A
DEMOCRACY, PEOPLE DON'T JUST
HAVE RIGHTS.
IT'S NOT JUST A MATTER OF THE
GOVERNMENT GIVING YOU STUFF.
I THINK PEOPLE HAVE TO BE MADE
AWARE THAT THEY HAVE TO BE
ACTIVE PARTICIPANTS IN A
DEMOCRATIC COMMUNITY.
AND THEN I THINK THE IDEA OF
NATIONAL IDENTITY, YOU KNOW, THE
CIVICS IS JUST A MEANS TO THE
END OF CREATING A SENSE OF
NATIONAL IDENTITY, WHICH HAS TO
BE ACCRETAL OPEN ONE.
IT HAS TO BE ONE THAT CAN
ACCOMMODATE A DE FACTO
MULTICULTURAL SOCIETY, BUT YET
GIVE PEOPLE SOMETHING IN COMMON
TO BELIEVE IN, WHICH I THINK HAS
TO DO WITH DEMOCRATIC POLITICAL
INSTITUTIONS, BELIEF IN
FUNDAMENTAL EQUALITY.
SO I THINK IF YOU COMBINE ALL OF
THOSE AND YOU HAVE THE RIGHT
KIND OF LEADERSHIP TO PUSH THEM,
I THINK IT WOULD PUSH BACK
AGAINST THIS, YOU KNOW, THIS
FRACTIONALIZING IDENTITY
POLITICS ON BOTH THE RIGHT AND
THE LEFT THAT WE'VE EXPERIENCED
IN RECENT YEARS.

Steve says AND JUST ONE POINT
OF CLARIFICATION.
WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT NATIONAL
SERVICE, IS THAT NATIONAL
MILITARY SERVICE?

Francis says WELL, IT COULD BE, BUT I
THINK THAT SINCE WE DON'T
HOPEFULLY WANT TO FIGHT A LOT OF
WARS IN THE FUTURE, IT COULD BE
CIVILIAN SERVICE.
IT COULD BE TEACHING IN THE
SCHOOL SYSTEM.
IT COULD BE, YOU KNOW,
CONTRIBUTING TO PUBLIC GOOD IN
EVERY TOWN AND VILLAGE AND CITY
IN THE UNITED STATES.
I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF WAYS
YOU CAN APPROACH THIS.

Steve says IT'S A BIT CHEEKY TO
ASK ONE AUTHOR TO COMMENT ON
ANOTHER AUTHOR'S WORK, BUT I'M
GOING TO DO THAT ANYWAY HERE,
BECAUSE THE FORMER CANADIAN
PRIME MINISTER, STEPHEN HARPER,
HAS JUST COME OUT WITH A BOOK
AND I WANT TO READ A QUOTE FROM
HIM TO YOU AND GET YOUR TAKE ON
WHAT HE HAS TO SAY.
HERE'S FORMER PRIME MINISTER
HARPER IN HIS BOOK "RIGHT HERE
RIGHT NOW"...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Don't dismiss or else!" The quote reads "If policy does not seem to be working out for the public, in a democracy, you are supposed to fix the policy, not denounce the public. But, if you listen to some leaders and much of the media, you would not know it. Their response is wrong, frustrating and dangerous. Wrong, because most of today's political upheaval has readily identifiable causes. Frustrating, because it stands in the way of credible, pragmatic solutions that do exist. Dangerous, because the current populist upheaval is actually benign and constructive compared with what will follow if it is not addressed."
Quoted from Stephen Harper, "Right here, right now." 2018.

Steve says YOUR VIEW ON THE
FORMER PM'S COMMENTS?

Francis says WELL, I HAVE A CERTAIN
SYMPATHY WITH ESPECIALLY THE
LAST OF THOSE POINTS, YOU KNOW,
THAT I DO THINK THAT BECAUSE A
LOT OF THE POPULISM IS DRIVEN BY
REAL PROBLEMS, LIKE GROWING
INEQUALITY, YOU KNOW, JOB LOSS,
OUTSOURCING OF JOBS AND THE
LIKE, AND THIS FEAR OF TOO RAPID
CULTURAL CHANGE, I DO THINK THAT
UNLESS YOU BEGIN TO CHIP AWAY AT
SOME OF THOSE UNDERLYING
DRIVERS, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO
REDUCE THE DEGREE OF ANGER, AND
I THINK YOU COULD TAKE THE WIND
OUT OF THE SAILS OF POPULISTS IF
YOU MADE SOME ACCOMMODATION.
THE PROBLEM IS GOING TOO FAR IN
THAT, BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO
ACCOMMODATE RACISM AND OUTRIGHT
XENOPHOBIA, AND THAT'S WHAT THE
REAL POPULIST RIGHT IS SOMETIMES
TOYING WITH AND SOMETIMES, YOU
KNOW, WHOLEHEARTEDLY PUSHING
FOR.
SO IT REALLY DEPENDS ON WHERE
YOU DRAW THE LINE, YOU KNOW,
BETWEEN POLICIES THAT ARE
LEGITIMATE AND WILL HELP TO
DEFUSE THAT ANGER AND ONES THAT
WILL SIMPLY LEGITIMIZE IT.

Steve says IN WHICH CASE LET'S
FINISH UP ON THIS: ALL OF HIS
FAULTS NOTWITHSTANDING, WOULD
YOU SAY THAT YOUR CURRENT
PRESIDENT IS AT LEAST MAKING
SOME PROGRESS IN DEALING WITH
THE ISSUES THAT HAVE RESULTED IN
THE POPULIST UPRISING THAT GAVE
FORCE TO HIS ELECTION?

Francis says I DON'T THINK, YOU KNOW, HE'S
GOTTEN AT ANY OF THOSE.
IF YOU LOOK AT HIS ECONOMIC
POLICIES, THEY'RE BASICALLY
CLASSIC REPUBLICAN POLICIES THAT
FAVOUR THE RICH.
YOU KNOW, DEREGULATION.
THIS SO-CALLED TAX REFORM THAT
BASICALLY REDISTRIBUTES INCOME
UPWARDS.
THE TRADE POLICIES, YOU KNOW,
ARE COMPLICATED BECAUSE A LOT OF
WORKING CLASS VOTERS ACTUALLY
WANT THIS KIND OF PROTECTIONISM,
BUT I THINK IN THE END,
EVERYBODY'S GOING TO BE HURT BY
THAT.
SO I DON'T THINK HE'S DOING
ANYTHING TO ACTUALLY FIX THOSE
UNDERLYING PROBLEMS.
AND IN THE MEANTIME, ON THIS
IMPORTANT SYMBOLIC IDENTITY
LEVEL, HE'S DOING EVERYTHING HE
CAN TO MAKE THE PROBLEMS WORSE
AND TO WEAKEN THE FUNDAMENTAL
CHECK-AND-BALANCE INSTITUTIONS
THAT A DEMOCRACY REALLY DEPENDS ON.

The caption changes to "Producer: Wodek Szemberg, @wodekszemberg."

Steve says WE ARE HAPPY TO
REMIND PEOPLE THAT YOUR LATEST
OFFERING ON WHAT AILS US THESE
DAYS IS CALLED "IDENTITY: THE
DEMAND FOR DIGNITY AND THE
POLITICS OF RESENTMENT."
FRANCIS FUKUYAMA, WE'RE ALWAYS
DELIGHTED TO HAVE YOU JOIN US ON
TVO.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.

Francis says THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR
HAVING ME.

Watch: Are Liberal Democracies Unravelling?