Transcript: The New Age of Billionaire Philanthropy | Sep 26, 2018

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and spotted blue tie.

A caption on screen reads "The new age of billionaire philanthropy. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says THEY GIVE AWAY
BILLIONS OF THEIR OWN MONEY - IF
YOU ADDED IT UP, IT WOULD TOTAL
MORE THAN THE GDP OF MANY
COUNTRIES.
THEY ARE PART OF A NEW CLASS OF
MEGA-PHILANTHROPISTS,
BILLIONAIRES DIRECTING THEIR
PROFITS TO SOLVE THE WORLD'S
PROBLEMS.
IT'S CERTAINLY GENEROUS, BUT IS
IT ALSO PROBLEMATIC?
WITH US TO TACKLE THAT:
IN NEW YORK, NEW YORK:
MATTHEW BISHOP, MANAGING
DIRECTOR OF THE ROCKEFELLER
FOUNDATION AND AUTHOR OF
"PHILANTHRO-CAPITALISM: HOW THE
RICH CAN SAVE THE WORLD."
THAT'S HIM ON THE LEFT...

Matthew is in his late forties, bald, with a gray beard. He's wearing glasses, a black suit and an open-necked white shirt.

Steve continues ANAND GIRIDHARADAS, JOURNALIST
AND AUTHOR OF "WINNERS TAKE ALL:
THE ELITE CHARADE OF CHANGING THE WORLD."

Anand is in his late thirties, with short gray hair and a stubble. He's wearing a blue suit and a black shirt.

Steve continues AND BACK HERE IN OUR STUDIO:
RUDYARD GRIFFITHS, SENIOR FELLOW
AT THE MUNK SCHOOL OF GLOBAL
AFFAIRS AND PHILANTHROPIC
ADVISOR TO SOME OF CANADA'S
LARGEST FOUNDATIONS...

Rudyard is in his forties, clean-shaven, with shirt brown hair. He's wearing glasses, a blue suit, white shirt, and red tie.

Steve continues AND LINDA McQUAIG, JOURNALIST
AND CO-AUTHOR OF "BILLIONAIRES'
BALL: GLUTTONY AND HUBRIS IN AN
AGE OF EPIC INEQUALITY."
SHE ALSO WROTE "THE TROUBLE WITH BILLIONAIRES."
WHICH WE ALL REMEMBER WELL.

Linda is in her early fifties, with long wavy blond hair. She's wearing a floral print black blouse.

Steve continues IT'S GOOD TO HAVE YOU TWO HERE
IN OUR STUDIO, AND TO OUR
FRIENDS IN NEW YORK CITY, THANK
YOU FOR JOINING US ON TVO
TONIGHT.
ANAND, JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE
THIS NEW BOOK OUT, "WINNERS TAKE
ALL: THE ELITE CHARADE OF
CHANGING THE WORLD."
WE'LL BRING EVERYONE INTO THE
CONVERSATION.
THIS BOOK... I SHOULD SAY FIRST
OF ALL, WELCOME BACK TO TVO.

Anand says YOU'RE
ONE OF THE FIRST TV SHOWS I EVER
DID A LONG TIME AGO.
IT'S GREAT TO BE BACK WITH YOU.

Steve says AND YOU'RE STILL
TAKING OUR CALLS, WHICH IS A
BEAUTIFUL THING.
LET'S START WITH THE FACT THAT
THIS STARTED FOR YOU AS A SPEECH
IN 2015 TO THE ASPEN INSTITUTE.
YOU WERE SURROUNDED BY A LOT OF
WEALTHY PHILANTHROPISTS IN THAT
ROOM.
WHAT HAPPENED THEN?

The caption changes to "Anand Giridharadas. Author, 'Winners take all.'"
A caption appears on screen. It reads "An elite charade."

Anand says I WAS
PART OF THIS FELLOWSHIP AT THE
ASPEN INSTITUTE AND THERE ARE
MANY AROUND THE WORLD LIKE THIS,
THE DAVOS FELLOWSHIPS AND TED
FELLOWSHIPS AND CLINTON
FELLOWSHIPS THAT TRY TO TAKE
YOUNG BUSINESS LEADERS AND MAKE
THEM THINK ABOUT GIVING BACK
MORE, STARTING SOCIAL
ENTERPRISES, DOING PHILANTHROPY,
HAVING BUSINESSES THAT ENGAGE IN
CONSCIOUS CAPITALISM.
I STARTED TO OBSERVE AND
CONTINUE TO OBSERVE THAT WE LIVE
IN THIS VERY PARADOXICAL TIME
THAT STARTED TO GRATE ON ME MORE
AND MORE AS I GOT INTO THAT
WORLD.

A picture of Anand's book appears briefly on screen. The cover features a drawing of golden coins with a world map on them.

Anand continues ON ONE HAND IT WAS VERY CLEAR WE
LIVE IN AN AGE OF HISTORIC
GENEROSITY, AND ALL THE NUMBERS
YOU CITED, RICH PEOPLE GIVING
BACK ON AN HISTORIC SCALE.
ON THE OTHER END OF THE AGE
SCALE, COLLEGES IN THE
UNIVERSITY, UNIVERSALLY WANTING
TO CHANGE THE WORLD AND MAKE A
DIFFERENCE AND SEEMINGLY EVERY
PERSON WANTED TO GO TO AFRICA
AND TURN RECYCLED POOP INTO
COFFEE THAT WILL SOMEHOW FUND A
TOTE BAG THAT WILL MAKE A
DIFFERENCE.
THERE SEEMED TO BE ALL THIS
GENEROUS ACTIVITY.
BUT HERE IN THE UNITED STATES,
THIS HAS ALSO BEEN FAMOUSLY THE
MOST UNEQUAL TIME IN 100 YEARS,
THE WORST TIME TO BE A MIDDLE OR
WORKING CLASS AMERICAN IN 100
YEARS, AN ERA OF SIMMERING AND
NOW BOILED OVER RAGE, AND A TIME
IN WHICH MANY, MANY AMERICANS
FEEL CORRECTLY THE SYSTEM TO BE
RIGGED AGAINST THEM.
THE AMERICAN DREAM AS WE KNOW IT
TO BE ELUSIVE AND SOCIAL
MOBILITY TO BE DEAD UNLESS
YOU'RE BORN AT THE TOP AND ONLY
WISH TO STAY THERE.
SO I BECAME INTERESTED IN HOW
THOSE TWO THINGS COULD BE
SQUARED.
HOW IS IT THAT WE LIVE IN THIS
TIME THAT IS SO GENEROUS BY
EVERY MEASURE, AND SO UNJUST IN
SO MANY OTHER WAYS?
AND I WENT ON A JOURNEY OF
INVESTIGATION, OF ACTUALLY
SPENDING TIME... I'M A
REPORTER... AND I SPENT TIME
WITH THE PEOPLE IN THESE WORLDS
WHO WERE DOING THIS AND WHO WERE
OFTEN BEHIND THE SCENES ACTUALLY
WRESTLING WITH THESE VERY
QUESTIONS.
THEY WEREN'T UNAWARE OF THESE
QUESTIONS AND WHO GRAPPLED WITH
THEM THEMSELVES.
AND WHAT I FOUND, IN SHORT, WAS
WHEN THE WINNERS OF OUR AGE STEP
INTO THE ARENA OF PUBLIC
PROBLEM-SOLVING, THEY BRING
THEIR WITS, THEIR TALENTS, THEIR
MONEY, THEIR SPREADSHEET
ANALYSIS SKILLS, AND VARIOUS
OTHER ASSETS.
HOWEVER, THEY ALSO BRING THEIR
TASTES AND THEIR TABOOS AND WHEN
THE WINNERS STEP INTO SOCIAL
CHANGE, THEY DON'T JUST STEP OUT
IN THE BACK ROW, THEY SIT IN THE
FRONT ROW, AND THEY CHANGE WHAT
CHANGE IS.
THEY CHANGE WHAT MANY OF US
THINK ABOUT CHANGE AND THEY
DELIMIT A LOT OF CHANGE THAT IS
THREATENING TO THEM.
YOU END UP WITH THE KIND OF
CHANGE THAT KEEPS THE WINNERS ON
TOP AND PRESERVES THE SYSTEM
THAT KEEPS THEM WINNING AND
SHUTS MOST AMERICANS OUT.
SO I CONCLUDED FROM THIS
REPORTING THAT A LOT OF WHAT
PASSES FOR GENEROSITY IN OUR
TIME IS KIND OF AN ATTEMPT TO
MASQUERADE AS JUSTICE BUT IS NOT
AND THAT GIVING FUNCTION AS A
KIND OF WINGMAN OF CONTINUED
TAKING.

The caption changes to "Anand Giridharadas, @anandwrites."

Anand continues AND THIS IDEA OF CHANGING THE
WORLD THAT YOU HEAR FROM MARK
ZUCKERBERG AND OTHERS FUNCTIONS
AS A KIND OF WING MAN OF KEEPING
YOUR WORLD THE SAME AND NOT
BEING REGULATED AND NOT PAYING
PROPER TAXES AND NOT PAYING YOUR
WORKERS ENOUGH.
AND THIS KIND OF IDEA OF MAKING
A DIFFERENCE THAT WE HEAR FROM A
LOT OF THESE RICH PEOPLE
FUNCTIONS AS A WINGMAN OF MAKING
A KILLING AND ACTUALLY NOT
CHANGING ANYTHING.

Steve says LET ME FOLLOW UP
WITH THIS: DO YOU THINK THEY
UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ARE
CONTRIBUTING TO THE PROBLEMS
THAT THEY ARE THEMSELVES TRYING
TO SOLVE?

Anand says I THINK
SOME DO AND SOME DON'T.
BUT ONE OF THE STAGGERING THINGS
I FOUND IS HOW MANY ACTUALLY DO,
AT LEAST QUIETLY, FEEL THAT.
LOOK, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO I
THINK FULLY BELIEVE THAT, YOU
KNOW, THEIR HEDGE FUND
FLASH-TRADING THOSE COMMODITIES
OR THEIR SILICON VALLEY COMPANY,
SIMPLY BY GROWING, IS LIBERATING
HUMANITY.
THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE
THAT.
BUT I THINK IT'S HARD, IF YOU
HAVE A NEWSPAPER SUBSCRIPTION OR
EVEN JUST A TWITTER FEED, IT IS
HARD TO LIVE IN THIS ERA, AS AN
EXTREMELY PRIVILEGED PERSON, WHO
PERHAPS HAS BEEN GOING ABOUT
SOME OF THIS HELPFULNESS FOR NOT
A YEAR BUT FIVE YEARS, TEN
YEARS, TWENTY YEARS, AND NOT
BEING PERSUADED THAT IT'S NOT
WORKING AGAINST THE FUNDAMENTAL
PROBLEMS IN SOCIETY.
AND ONE OF THE THINGS I FOUND...
AND I WANT TO SAY THIS THING
ABOUT... IF DONALD TRUMP HAS
DONE ONE GOOD THING, BECAUSE
OBVIOUSLY HE'S DONE SOME OF THE
MOST ATROCIOUS THINGS IN
AMERICAN HISTORY... BUT IF HE'S
DONE ONE GOOD THING, I FOUND
THAT AMONG THE PEOPLE I WAS
REPORTING ON AND I WAS DOING
THIS REPORTING... I STARTED
RIGHT AROUND THE TIME HE STARTED
RUNNING AND CONTINUED FOR THE
NEXT, YOU KNOW, FEW YEARS AND
HIS PRESIDENCY, I FOUND THAT
AMONG THE RICH PEOPLE THAT I WAS
WRITING ABOUT, DONALD TRUMP HAS
CREATED AN OPENNESS TO
INTROSPECTION ABOUT THEIR ROLES
IN A BAD SYSTEM.
BECAUSE I THINK IF YOU ARE A
THINKING PERSON OF PRIVILEGE OR
ANYBODY ELSE AND YOU LOOK AT THE
FACT THAT DONALD TRUMP IS NOW
PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES,
AND WE NOW HAVE A DUMPSTER FIRE
RAGING THROUGH THE WHITE HOUSE,
IT IS HARD TO LOOK AT THAT AND
NOT SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT?
I'M PROBABLY INVOLVED IN THAT IN
SOME WAY.
I NEED TO LOOK AT MYSELF AGAIN.
I NEED TO LOOK AT MY
ASSUMPTIONS.
I NEED TO LOOK AT HOW I'VE SPENT
MY LIFE.
SO I ACTUALLY WROTE ABOUT PEOPLE
WHO ARE IN THESE SPACES BUT WHO
ARE STARTING TO QUESTION THEM
AND STARTING TO WONDER WHETHER
UNWITTINGLY, THEY WERE, AS YOU
SAY, CAUSING THE PROBLEMS THEY
WERE TRYING TO SOLVE OR
COMPLICIT IN THOSE PROBLEMS AND
WHETHER THEY WERE KIND OF
FIGHTING TWO SIDES OF A WAR.

Steve says NOW THAT WE KNOW THE
THESIS, LET'S OPEN IT UP FOR
DISCUSSION HERE.
MATTHEW, DO YOU WANT TO WEIGH IN
ON WHETHER YOU THINK ANAND IS
ONTO SOMETHING OR OFF-BASE?
WHAT IS YOUR TAKE?

The caption changes to "Matthew Bishop. The Rockefeller Foundation."

Matthew says I REALLY WANTED TO LIKE THIS BOOK WHEN I
PICKED IT UP BECAUSE MY BOOK
PHILANTHRO-CAPITALISM.
THE RICH TRYING TO SOLVE THE
WORLD'S BIG PROBLEMS HAS
INCREASED.
IT'S PROBABLY ONE OF THE FEW BIG
POSITIVE STORIES IN THE WORLD,
AND YET VERY FEW PEOPLE HAVE
WRITTEN SERIOUSLY ABOUT IT AND
LOOKED AT IT PROPERLY AND LOOKED
AT THE KIND OF QUESTIONS THAT IT
DOES RAISE AND ANAND IS RIGHT.
I'VE CERTAINLY... I CERTAINLY
HAVE NO... PER SE FOR
BILLIONAIRES AND THERE'S NO
DOUBT THEY HAVE INFLUENCE IN OUR
SOCIETY.
FOR ME, I CAME TO THE STORY
BECAUSE THEY WERE FUNDING SOME
REALLY PROFOUNDLY IMPORTANT
INITIATIVES, THEY WERE CHANGING
THE WORLD.
AND UNFORTUNATELY ANAND'S BOOK
ENDS UP I THINK WILDLY
MISREPRESENTING WHAT'S GOING ON.
IT'S A SUPERFICIAL ANALYSIS.
IT HAS NO ANSWERS REALLY THAT
ARE REALLY GOING TO BE PRACTICAL.

The caption changes to "Matthew Bishop. Author, 'Philanthrocapitalism.'"

Matthew continues AND WHAT WE REALLY NEEDED WAS A
BOOK THAT LOOKED AT WHAT'S
WORKING FROM PHILANTHROPISTS AND
WHAT ISN'T WORKING WHICH IS A
REALLY INTERESTING AND SORT OF
QUITE NUANCED STORY.
FOR EXAMPLE, THERE'S VERY LITTLE
IN HIS BOOK ABOUT BILL GATES.
FOR ME, BILL GATES IS THE POSTER
CHILD OF PHILANTHRO-CAPITALISM
AND WEIRDLY HE ENDORSES ANAND'S
GROUP, WHICH I DON'T UNDERSTAND.
IF ANYONE SHOULD BE CRITICIZED
BY HIS THESIS IS BILL GATES.
HE'S SAVED MILLIONS OF LIVES
AROUND THE WORLD UNQUESTIONABLY.
WHERE'S THE CREDIT FOR THAT?
WHAT COULD WE LEARN FROM BILL
GATES THAT COULD BE SHARED WITH
THE OTHER PHILANTHRO CAPITALISTS
AND COULD HELP SOLVE THE
ENORMOUS CHALLENGES WE'RE FACING
AT THE MOMENT.

Steve says ANAND, I'M GOING TO
LET YOU SIT TIGHT AND LISTEN TO
WHAT EVERYBODY ELSE HAS TO SAY,
GOOD, BAD, AND INDIFFERENT?
LINDA, YOUR VIEW?

The caption changes to "Linda McQuaig. Co-Author, 'Billionaires' ball.'"

Linda says I FOUND THE
BOOK VERY INTERESTING AND VERY POWERFUL.
I JUST THINK IT MAKES SOME
EXCELLENT POINTS THAT OF COURSE
OBVIOUSLY GENEROSITY ON THE PART
OF THE RICH, SOME GOOD THINGS
HAVE BEEN DONE.
BUT THE REAL QUESTION IS, THE
RICH HAVE BECOME ENORMOUSLY
POWERFUL.
THEY ENJOY WEALTH AND POWER
CONCENTRATION LIKE THEY HAVEN'T
FOR, YOU KNOW...

Steve says CENTURIES.

Linda says CENTURIES.
AND THEY'VE USED THAT POWER, NOT
JUST TO GIVE MONEY AWAY BUT TO
REMAKE SOCIETY, REMAKE THE
ECONOMY VERY MUCH TO THEIR
FAVOUR.
CUTTING TAXES FOR THEMSELVES.
GUTTING LABOUR LAWS.
PUTTING IN TRADE DEALS THAT
FAVOUR THEM.
ALL THOSE KINDS OF THINGS ARE
RESPONSIBLE FOR THEM BEING SO
MUCH MORE POWERFUL THAN THEY'VE
EVER BEEN, AND SO MUCH RICHER.
AND WHAT IS IT THAT ALL THIS
PHILANTHRO-CAPITALISM DOES TO
ADDRESS THAT?
THAT'S THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM
OF THE TREMENDOUS INEQUALITY
THAT WE HAVE TODAY.
AND YET PHILANTHRO-CAPITALISM,
AS ANAND SAYS, THAT'S THE LAST
THING IT WANTS TO ADDRESS.
IT WANTS TO CREATE SITUATIONS
WHERE, YOU KNOW, THEY CAN GET
SPIN-OFF BENEFITS OFTEN
ECONOMICALLY.
AND ABOVE ALL, IT DOESN'T WANT
TO CHALLENGE THAT BASIC SYSTEM
THAT HAS BEEN... THAT THEY HAVE
PUT IN PLACE AND THAT HAS BEEN
SO INCREDIBLY FAVOURABLE TO
THEIR INTERESTS.

Steve says RUDYARD, YOU ADVISE
SOME OF THE WEALTHIER CHARITABLE
FOUNDATIONS AND FAMILIES IN THIS
COUNTRY.
WHAT'S YOUR VIEW ON WHAT YOU'VE HEARD?

The caption changes to "Rudyard Griffiths. Munk School of Global Affairs."

Rudyard says TWO OBSERVATIONS.
ONE, ABSOLUTELY, OVER THE LAST
DECADE WE'VE SEEN THIS
INCREDIBLE APPRECIATION OF
ASSETS.
THOSE ASSETS HAVE APPRECIATED
NOT ONLY IN PEOPLE'S STOCK
PORTFOLIOS BUT WITHIN
FOUNDATIONS AND ENDOWMENTS.
AND WHENEVER YOU GET A LARGE
APPRECIATION OF CAPITAL, I THINK
THAT WARRANTS INVESTIGATION, IT
WARRANTS REFLECTION ON THE PART
OF SOCIETY AS TO, HOW IS THAT
CAPITAL BEING DEPLOYED?
IS IT EFFICIENT, EFFECTIVE, AND
IT IS ACHIEVING GOALS?
ESPECIALLY WHEN IT'S IN A
CHARITABLE STRUCTURE THAT HAS
ALLOWED THE PEOPLE WHO PUT THE
CAPITAL THERE A VARIETY OF TAX
ADVANTAGES AND A VARIETY OF,
FRANKLY, MOTIVATIONS, QUITE
PERSONAL, I.E. THEIR AFTER-TAX
POSITION IN MANY CASES TO SET UP
AND ESTABLISH THESE FOUNDATIONS.
SO I THINK IT'S GOOD WE'RE
HAVING THIS CONVERSATION.
I THINK THAT CANADA, THANKFULLY,
LIKE THE UNITED STATES, IS NOT
AS FAR DOWN THIS ROAD AND THAT
THERE ARE OPPORTUNITIES NOW TO
KIND OF STEP IN AND I THINK
THINK ABOUT SOME SMARTER
REGULATION IN TERMS OF THE
GROWTH OF THESE LARGE
FOUNDATIONS AND THEIR IMPACT ON
SOCIETY.
I WILL SAY THAT I THINK THERE
ARE MALIGNED AND GOOD ACTORS IN
ANY SYSTEM.
THE EXAMPLE OF GATES IS AN
EXCELLENT ONE.
THERE ARE SOME PHILANTHROPISTS
THAT ARE GOOD AT IT.
WHO HAVE A VISION.
WHO ARE ABLE TO EXECUTE ON IT.
AND ARE TRULY CONCERNED ABOUT
THE WORLD'S MOST DISADVANTAGED,
REGARDLESS OF ANY LARGER SYSTEM
THAT THEY'RE TRYING TO
PERPETUATE.
THERE ARE OTHERS, THOUGH, THAT
ARE HUGELY OPPORTUNISTIC, WHO
ARE GREEN-WASHING THEMSELVES
THROUGH THEIR PHILANTHROPY.

Steve says DO YOU WANT TO NAME
NAMES?

The caption changes to "Rudyard Griffiths, @rudyardg."

Rudyard says I'M NOT GOING TO.
WE'VE SEEN THAT IN THE UNITED
STATES.
CORPORATIONS ARE NOTORIOUS FOR
THIS.
NIKE, WE CAN LOOK AT THE COLIN
KAEPERNICK ADD.
WHAT'S THE PURPOSE OF SUPPORTING
HIS CHARITY?
IS IT TO ADVANCE THE CAUSES OF
BLACK MEN IN AMERICA OR SELL
MORE NIKE SNEAKERS?
IT'S PROBABLY THE LATTER,
STEVEN.
THERE ARE GOOD AND BAD ACTORS.
THAT'S MY POINT.
FURTHER TO MATTHEW'S POINT, WHY
NOT INVESTIGATE WHAT THE GOOD
ACTORS ARE DOING, WHY THEY'RE
SUCCESSFUL.
UNDERSTAND THAT, YES, THERE ARE
PEOPLE WHO I THINK THAT A
SPOTLIGHT OF SCRUTINY NEEDS TO
BE SHINED ON AND BELIEFS NEED TO
BE CHALLENGED.
LET'S NOT THROW OUT THE BABY
WITH THE BATH WATER.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Steve says ANAND, YOU'VE HEARD
SOME OF THE CRITICISMS ON WHAT
YOU WRITE.
DO YOU WANT TO COME BACK ON THAT?

Anand says FIRST
IN TERMS OF MATTHEW CALLING MY
BOOK SUPERFICIAL, I WANT TO SAY
IN MY DEFENCE, I AM ONLY
SUPERFICIAL ON THE SURFACE.
I AM MUCH DEEPER DEEP DOWN.

Steve laughs.

Anand says SECOND
OF ALL, I WAS ONLY ABLE TO WRITE
THIS BOOK BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE
MATTHEW.
MATTHEW WORKS FOR THE
ROCKEFELLER FOUNDATION.
AND THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE
LIKE MATTHEW WHO HAVE TO TAKE
THE KIND OF LINE HE TOOK HERE ON
TV IN HIS DAY JOB...

Matthew says ALTHOUGH
WHEN I WROTE MY BOOK, I WAS
WORKING FOR THE ECONOMIST AS A
JOURNALIST AND I WAS REPORTING
WHAT I SAW AS THE FACTS.
YOU ACCUSED ME OF HAVING SOLD MY
SOUL TO PHILANTHROPY.
I WROTE A BOOK AS A
JOURNALIST...

Anand says CAN YOU
ACTUALLY LET ME FINISH?

Matthew says I WILL DO.
I DON'T WANT YOUR SUPERFICIALITY
TO CONTINUE TO ACTUALLY PUT ME
IN A BAD LIGHT.

Anand says WE'LL
DO THIS AGAIN WHEN HE'S GOING TO
BE RESPECTFUL.

Anand stands up and leaves.

Steve says OKAY.
WELL, THERE'S A FIRST FOR
EVERYTHING... I DON'T KNOW IF
YOU CAN SEE HIM THERE AND URGE
HIM TO COME BACK.
IF YOU CAN'T...

Matthew says I'M AFRAID
THERE'S A DOOR BETWEEN US NOW AS
WELL AS...

Steve says THERE IS A DOOR.
OKAY.
WELL, LET'S CONTINUE ANYWAY HERE.
WHERE DO WE WANT TO PICK UP?
I THINK THE POINT YOU WERE
MAKING, MATTHEW, IS YOU WERE
WORKING AS A JOURNALIST WITH THE
ECONOMIST WHEN YOU WROTE YOUR
BOOK TEN YEARS AGO AND THEREFORE
THE VIEWS YOU'VE JUST EXPRESSED
ON TELEVISION ARE NOT, QUOTE,
UNQUOTE, BOUGHT AND PAID FOR BY
THE ROCKEFELLER FOUNDATION.
HAVE I GOT THIS RIGHT?

Matthew says PRECISELY.
I'VE COME TO THIS AS A
JOURNALIST, AS A REPORTER, TO
RESPOND TO WHAT I SEE HAPPENING
IN THE WORLD.
PART OF THIS IS SOME OF THESE
PHILANTHROPISTS, LIKE BILL
GATES, I THINK WERE DOING
POSITIVE THINGS AND ARE
CONTINUING TO DO POSITIVE
THINGS.
WHAT I THINK IS NEEDED IS A
PROPER DEBATE ABOUT THOSE WHO
ARE DOING WELL AND WHY THEY'RE
DOING IT AND CALLING OUT THOSE
WHO AREN'T DOING WELL.
I THINK WE NEED TO SOLVE THESE
PROBLEMS.
I THINK ANAND DOES RAISE A
NUMBER OF IMPORTANT QUESTIONS,
NOT LEAST THAT WE ARE IN A WORLD
OF GROWING INEQUALITY AND WE DO
FACE ENORMOUS CHALLENGES.
BUT I THINK THAT TO SIMPLY PAINT
EVERYBODY WITH THE SAME BRUSH
AND SAY THEY ARE ALL ESSENTIALLY
A BEAR'S LIPSTICK ON A PIG OF A
BAD SYSTEM AND WE NEED TO BE
FINDING OUT ANSWERS AND
SOLUTIONS TO ACTUALLY SOME OF
THESE HUGE CHALLENGES THAT WE
FACE.

The caption changes to "Linda McQuaig. Co-Author, 'The trouble with billionaires.'"

Linda says I DIDN'T
THINK ANYBODY IS SUGGESTING
EVERYBODY GIVING AWAY... ALL THE
RICH GIVING AWAY MONEY, THAT
THEY HAVE BAD MOTIVES OR
ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
SOME MIGHT.
SOME MIGHT BE MORE INTERESTED IN
THE PRESTIGE THAT THEY GET.
BUT SOME ARE GENUINELY COMMITTED.
I GUESS THE QUESTION IS: DOES
THIS... A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS:
DOES THIS HAVE THE EFFECT OF
WHITEWASHING THE SITUATION WHERE
THEY HOLD SO MUCH POWER AND
WEALTH?
THAT THAT IS THE FUNDAMENTAL
PROBLEM, AND THAT THEY DON'T
SEEM WILLING TO ACTUALLY
QUESTION THE STRUCTURE OF THE
ECONOMY THAT HAS ALLOWED THEM TO
BE REWARDED LIKE THAT.

Steve says HOW DO YOU ANSWER
THAT QUESTION?

Linda says LET'S PUT IT
THIS WAY... LET ME JUST SAY THAT
IF YOU GO BACK TO THE EARLY
POST-WAR PERIOD, THE '50s AND
'60s, WE LIVED IN A MUCH MORE
EQUAL SOCIETY.
THERE WERE RICH PEOPLE AND
MIDDLE CLASS, ETC., BUT THE RICH
WERE NOT SO FAR AHEAD OF
EVERYONE ELSE.
WHAT'S HAPPENED IN RECENT
YEARS... AND IT'S HAPPENED
BECAUSE OF A VERY AGGRESSIVE
PUSH BY THE BUSINESS
INTERESTS... IS THAT THEY PUT IN
PLACE POLICIES THAT HAVE ALLOWED
THEMSELVES TO BECOME ENORMOUSLY
WEALTHY AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHER
MEMBERS OF SOCIETY.
THEY ENJOY A MUCH BIGGER SHARE
OF THE OVERALL WEALTH OF
SOCIETY, THE OVERALL GDP, THAN
THEY DID IN THOSE EARLIER YEARS.
IT'S NOT BECAUSE THE RICH TODAY
ARE MORE TALENTED AND MORE
ENTREPRENEURIAL THAN THE RICH
WERE BACK THEN.
WE'VE ALWAYS HAD VERY TALENTED
PEOPLE IN THE ELITE.
IT'S BECAUSE THEY'VE
AGGRESSIVELY PUSHED FOR THESE
POLICIES THAT FAVOUR THEIR OWN
INTERESTS.
SO IF WE'RE GOING TO GET AT
ANYTHING THAT'S GOING TO
FUNDAMENTALLY IMPROVE THE LIVES
OF MORE CITIZENS, WE'RE GOING TO
HAVE TO CHALLENGE SOME OF THOSE
THINGS.
AND I THINK THE POINT THAT ANAND
IS TRYING TO GET AT IN HIS BOOK
IS THAT THESE PEOPLE THAT ARE
CLAIMING TO RESHAPE THE WORLD
FOR BETTER ARE NOT WILLING TO
LOOK AT THOSE PROBLEMS...

Steve says LET ME ASK THAT TO
RUDYARD.
YOU WORK WITH SOME OF THE
WEALTHIEST PEOPLE IN THE
COUNTRY, THE LATER PETER MUNK
AND GALEN WESTON.
IN YOUR EXPERIENCE, DID THESE
PEOPLE EVER THINK THAT THEY WERE
SOMEHOW GIVING MONEY AWAY AND
BEING PHILANTHROPIC AS A WAY FOR
COMPENSATING FOR THE FACT THAT
THEY HAD COOKED THE SYSTEM IN
THE FIRST PLACE TO FAVOUR THEMSELVES?

Rudyard says I THINK
ACTUALLY QUITE THE CONTRARY.
PETER MUNK ESPECIALLY, WAY
BEFORE BILL GATES AND PEOPLE
LIKE WARREN BUFFET MADE IT
POPULAR, HAD THIS IDEA THAT
CANADA, WELCOMING HIM AS A
REFUGEE FROM NAZI-OCCUPIED
EUROPE, HAD GIVEN HIM
EVERYTHING.
AND THE WEALTH HE HAD
ACCUMULATED OVER THE COURSE OF
HIS LIFE NEEDED TO BE RETURNED
TO THAT SOCIETY FOR THE
BETTERMENT OF IT.
AND HE DID THAT, IN A
SPECTACULAR FASHION IN THE FINAL
YEARS OF HIS LIFE, 100 MILLION DOLLARS
GIFT TO THE CARDIAC CENTRE AT
THE U OF T.
THE MUNK SCHOOL AT THE U OF T
ALSO EXISTS NOW AS AN
INSTITUTION IN PERPETUITY THAT
WILL ADVANCE A VISION OF CANADA
IN THE WORLD.
YOU KNOW, THESE WERE THINGS THAT
PETER ACTED ON NOT OUT OF A
SENSE, I THINK, OF SOME AGENDA,
AS SOME MIGHT IMPLY, BUT RATHER
IN A SPIRIT OF WHAT GOOD
PHILANTHROPY IS ABOUT, WHICH IS
GIVING BACK TO THE SOCIETY THAT
GAVE YOU EVERYTHING.
I THINK THE MOTIVATIONS, IN SOME
CASES, NOT IN ALL CASES, LINDA,
BUT IN SOME CASES, CAN BE
INCREDIBLY SIMPLE AND INCREDIBLY
POWERFUL AND POSITIVE.

Linda says BUT I GUESS
ONE OF THE THINGS, WHEN YOU LOOK
AT SOMETHING LIKE THE MUNK
DONATIONS, IS THE AMOUNT OF
TAXES WE LOSE WHEN CHARITABLE
DONATIONS ARE MADE.
I RECALL THE MUNK DONATION TO
THE MUNK SCHOOL, I THINK IT WAS
35 MILLION DOLLARS.
IN FACT, AFTER THE TAX
DEDUCTIONS, THE DONATION WAS
CLOSER TO I THINK 16 MILLION DOLLARS
AND MAY HAVE EVEN BEEN LESS
DEPENDING ON HOW THE DONATION
WAS GIVEN.
SO WHAT YOU END UP WITH THERE IS
A SCHOOL THAT IS IN FACT, YOU
KNOW, THERE IS A CONTRIBUTION
FROM PETER MUNK, BUT THERE'S A
HUGE CONTRIBUTION FROM THE
CITIZENS, FROM TAXPAYERS, TO
BUILD THAT PLACE.
IN FACT, WHEN YOU ADD IN THE
DONATION... THE CONTRIBUTIONS
FROM THE FEDERAL AND PROVINCIAL
GOVERNMENT...

Rudyard says LINDA I
THINK IS WHY PRECISELY THE
FEDERAL AND PROVINCIAL
GOVERNMENT ENCOURAGE AN ACTIVE...

The caption changes to "Linda McQuaig, @LindaMcQuaig."

Linda says LOOK WHAT
ENDS UP HAPPENING.
WE HAVE THE MUNK SCHOOL OF
GLOBAL AFFAIRS.
WE DON'T HAVE THE CANADIAN
TAXPAYER SCHOOL OF GLOBAL
AFFAIRS WITH A LITTLE HELP FROM
PETER MUNK.
THE POINT IS MUNK GETS ALL THAT
CREDIT...

Watch us anytime: tvo.org, Twitter: @theagenda, Facebook Live."

Rudyard says I DON'T
THINK HE GETS ALL THE CREDIT.
U OF T GETS CREDIT, I THINK THE
GRADUATES AND FACULTY AND STAFF
GET A LOT OF CREDIT...

Linda says ONE THING I
WOULD SAY IS WHEN A
PHILANTHROPIST IS REWARDED BY
HAVING THEIR NAME ON A BUILDING
OR, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING, A
CONCERT HALL OR SOMETHING LIKE
THAT, THAT'S ESSENTIALLY...
THAT'S ESSENTIALLY SOMETHING
WONDERFUL FOR THEM.
YOU CAN'T BUY BETTER PUBLICITY.
THAT SHOULD NOT BE DEDUCTIBLE
FOR TAX PURPOSES.
THAT SHOULD BE... THAT SHOULD
BE...

Steve says OKAY.
I'M GOING TO... WE HAVE A VERY
DELIGHTFUL DEVELOPMENT HERE ON
THE PROGRAM.
I'M LOOKING AT A SHOT OF NEW
YORK CITY RIGHT NOW, AND I SEE
BOTH OUR GUESTS BACK THERE.
I GUESS... HMM.
WHAT DO WE WANT TO DO?
ANAND, I'M DELIGHTED THAT YOU
HAVE RETURNED TO YOUR SEAT.
DO YOU WANT TO JUST SORT OF PICK
UP FROM THE POINT THAT YOU WERE
TRYING TO MAKE EARLIER?

Anand says WHEN I
WAS INTERRUPTED?

Steve says LET'S TRY IT WITHOUT
INTERRUPTION THIS TIME.
YOU MAKE THE POINT...

Anand says I
UNDERSTAND THAT MATTHEW IS A
WHITE MAN OF A CERTAIN AGE AND
NOT A WHITE MAN THAT CAN BE
INTERRUPTED AT WILL.

Steve says WE'RE NOT GOING TO
IMPUTE ANYBODY'S MOTIVE.
LET'S GET ON WITH THE POINT YOU
WANTED TO MAKE.

Anand says THE
POINT I WANTED TO MAKE IS A LOT
OF PEOPLE I SPOKE TO IN THIS
BOOK ARE LIKE MATTHEW, THAT THEY
WORK FOR THESE INSTITUTIONS,
THEY BELIEVE IN THESE
INSTITUTIONS, THEY ALSO ARE PAID
BY THESE INSTITUTIONS AND THEIR
COMPLICATED FEELINGS CANNOT ALL
BE PUT ON THE TABLE.
A LOT OF PEOPLE I SPOKE TO WHO
LET ME WRITE THIS AND WHO
PROVIDED THE AMMUNITION FOR MY
CRITIQUES ARE PEOPLE, SOME
NAMED, SOME NOT NAMED, WHO FEEL
THE WAY I DO WITHIN THESE SPACES
WHO ARE STUCK AND WHO GAVE ME
THEIR TRUTHS, THEIR EXPERIENCES
OF FEELING THAT WHILE THEY WORK
SOLVING THESE PROBLEMS IN A VERY
REAL WAY, THEY WERE HELPING TO
CAUSE THEM.
SO TO MATTHEW'S SUBSTANTIVE
POINT AROUND BILL GATES.
FIRST OF ALL, I THINK IT'S WORTH
NOTING, AS YOU DID, THE BILL
GATES BLURB IN THE BOOK, WHY
SOMEONE LIKE THAT WHO IS SAFE,
WHO DOESN'T NEED MORE MONEY, WHO
HAS NO CAREER NEEDS, FREER THAN
MOST PEOPLE ON EARTH, WHY HE
FELT PERMISSION TO HAVE THIS
CRITIQUE.
IF HE HAS TRULY DONE AS MUCH AS
HE HAS, AND HE HAS DONE
TREMENDOUS THINGS FOR PEOPLE.
WHY IS HE OPEN TO A BOOK CALLED
"THE ELITE CHARADE OF CHANGING
THE WORLD."
IF EVEN HE IS OPEN TO IT, I
THINK A LOT MORE OF US SHOULD BE
OPEN TO IT.
I SAY REPEATEDLY IN THE BOOK
THESE INITIATIVES HELP PEOPLE,
FEED THE HUNGRY, HOUSE THE
HOMELESS, SAVE LIVES, MILLIONS
OF LIVES.
I TALK ABOUT BILL CLINTON'S
INITIATIVES, THE GATES'
INITIATIVES, ALL KINDS OF
INITIATIVES.
THAT IS REAL.
WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT AT A MORE
FUNDAMENTAL LEVEL IS THAT THESE
EFFORTS LEAVE UNTOUCHED IN
GENERAL THE FUNDAMENTAL SYSTEM
THAT HAS ALLOWED THE VERY
RICHEST PEOPLE ON EARTH, THE
SAME PEOPLE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT
SOLVING THESE PROBLEMS, TO
SIPHON ALMOST ALL THE GAINS FROM
GROWTH UPWARD.
THE NEW NUMBERS LAST YEAR WERE I
THINK SOMETHING LIKE 80 PERCENT
OF NEW WEALTH CREATED LAST YEAR
WENT TO THE GLOBAL 1 percent.
YOU HAVE IN THE UNITED STATES
OVER THE LAST NEARLY 40 YEARS
ALMOST ALL OF THE GAINS FROM THE
FUTURE GOING TO PEOPLE ON TOP.
WE HAD AN AMAZING ARRAY OF
THINGS HAPPENING IN THIS COUNTRY
OVER THE LAST 40 YEARS.
IT WAS NOT THAT THE RAIN OF THE
FUTURE DIDN'T COME DOWN ON US.
BUT ALL OF THAT RAINWATER WAS
HARVESTED, ALMOST ALL OF IT, BY
PEOPLE IN THE TOP HALF OR TOP
10 percent...

Steve says UNDERSTOOD.
LET'S MAKE SURE...

Anand says IN
ADDITION, IS THAT DO-GOODING
THAT IS REAL PART OF EVEN AN
ACCOMPLICE TO A SYSTEM THAT MAY
BE HURTING MANY, MANY MORE
PEOPLE BUT IN WAYS THAT ARE NOT
SO EASY TO COUNT.

Steve says I TAKE YOUR POINT.
I UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT.
MATTHEW, LET ME GET YOU TO
FOLLOW UP BY SAYING, DO YOU
THINK THAT THE ROCKEFELLER
FOUNDATION IS OUT THERE DOING
GOOD IN PART BECAUSE IT'S TRYING
TO BURNISH THE REPUTATION OF
JOHN D. ROCKEFELLER WHO WAS ONE
OF THE EARLY CAPITALISTS,
INDUSTRIALISTS IN THE COUNTRY,
WITH A COMPLICATED RECORD OF
WHETHER HE MADE THE SYSTEM WORK
BETTER FOR HIM MORE THAN THE
PEOPLE HE EMPLOYED.

The caption changes to "Can the rich save the world?"

Matthew says LET ME
RESPOND TO THE ATTACK.
I HAVE AN INDIAN WIFE BORN IN
TROIS-RIVIERES OUTSIDE OF
MONTREAL, I HAVE A 12-YEAR-OLD
SON WHO IS NOT WHITE, SO I
RESENT... OBVIOUSLY I
INTERRUPTED WHEN APPROPRIATE.
WE HAVE LIVELY CONVERSATIONS.
I REALLY WANTED TO FOCUS ON THE
FACTS.
YOUR POINT ABOUT ROCKEFELLER
FOUNDATION.
ROCKEFELLER FOUNDATION I THINK
IS ONE OF THE PRODUCTS OF THE
GOLDEN AGE OF PHILANTHROPY AT
THE START OF THE 20TH CENTURY
WHICH RESHAPED THE WORLD AND
LARGELY AMERICA AS HE RESPONDED
TO THE INEQUALITY CHALLENGES OF
THOSE DAYS, AND I THINK THE
FOUNDATION CONTINUES TO FUND
PROJECTS AROUND THE WORLD THAT
BASICALLY IT IS TRYING TO SOLVE
BIG PROBLEMS LIKE HOW DO YOU
FEED THE POOREST PEOPLE ON THE
PLANET IN A NUTRITIOUS WAY?
HOW DO YOU GIVE PEOPLE ACCESS TO
RENEWABLE ENERGY IN PARTS OF
AFRICA AND INDIA WHERE THEY HAVE
NO ENERGY AT ALL?
HOW DO YOU SORT OF AVOID BABIES
AND MOTHERS DYING IN THE
DEVELOPING WORLD?
IT'S A VERY, VERY GOOD THING, AS
IS THE GATES FOUNDATION.

The caption changes to "Matthew Bishop, @mattbish."

Matthew continues AND I THINK ULTIMATELY, THERE
ARE A NUMBER OF THE
PHILANTHRO-CAPITALISTS THAT I
WRITE ABOUT IN THE BOOK AND
ANAND, GEORGE SOROS IS TRYING TO
CHANGE THE SYSTEM, HE HAS
BROUGHT DOWN GOVERNMENTS, HE HAS
PROMOTED TRANSPARENCY IN THE WAY
THAT BUSINESS IN THE MINING
INDUSTRY RELATES TO GOVERNMENTS
IN AFRICA AND AROUND THE WORLD
WHERE THERE MAY HAVE BEEN
CORRUPTION GOING ON.
THESE PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO
CHANGE THE SYSTEM AND I THINK WE
NEED TO LEARN FROM WHAT THEY ARE
DOING TO FIND OUT WHAT WORKS AND
WHAT DOESN'T WORK, AND THIS
BLANKET VIEW THAT THESE PEOPLE
ARE ALL NOT CHALLENGING THE
SYSTEM IS JUST WRONG.
I MEAN BILL GATES AND WARREN
BUFFETT, THE BIGGEST
PHILANTHRO-CAPITALISTS OF THE
DAY HAVE COME OUT AND SAID THEY
SHOULD BE TAXED MORE HEAVILY.
I JUST THINK YOU HAVE TO STICK
TO THE FACTS AND ACTUALLY REPORT
HONESTLY AND ACCURATELY RATHER
THAN JUST LIKE A HAMMER, SEE
EVERY RICH PERSON AS A NAIL.

Steve says RUDYARD GRIFFITHS
WANTED TO ADD SOMETHING HERE.

Rudyard says ONE
QUICK POINT, STEVE.
I THINK WE ALL ADMIT THAT THE
GROWTH OF INEQUALITY IN WESTERN
SOCIETIES IS A PROBLEM, BUT TO
LAY THAT AS A PHENOMENON THAT
EMERGES OUT OF BILLIONAIRE
CAPITALISM I THINK IS TO
MISUNDERSTAND ALL THE OTHER
PROFOUND EFFECTS THAT ARE
FUELLING INEQUALITY, LIKE U.S.
SUPREME COURT DECISIONS LIKE
CITIZENS UNITED THAT GIVE
CORPORATIONS FREE POLITICAL
SPEECH, FROM K STREET LOBBYISTS
AND THE EXTENT TO WHICH THE
AMERICAN GOVERNMENT IS INFESTED
WITH A LOBBYIST CULTURE THAT
CHANGES RULES.
I WONDER IF THE EMPHASIS HERE IS
A BIT OVERDONE AND A BIT... IS
PLACED IN THE WRONG AREA.
WE CAN SPEND A LOT OF TIME
TRYING TO SOLVE INEQUALITY.
WE SHOULD.
BUT TO THINK THAT BOTH THE CAUSE
AND SOLUTION IS EXCLUSIVELY
ACCESSED THROUGH LARGE-SCALE
PHILANTHROPY IS SOMEWHAT
ERRONEOUS.

Linda says BUT RUDYARD,
SURELY, YOU TALK ABOUT SUPREME
COURT DECISIONS, ETC., LOBBYING.
THAT COMES BACK TO THE POWER OF
BIG MONEY.

Rudyard says LINDA, I
DON'T DENY THE POWER OF BIG
MONEY.
BUT LET'S BE CLEAR.
THIS IS A SHOW ABOUT
PHILANTHROPY, NOT A SHOW
ABOUT...

Linda says WHAT I'M
SAYING IS THAT THE POWER OF THE
ELITE, YOU KNOW, THE
BILLIONAIRES, HAS GOTTEN WILDLY
OUT OF CONTROL.
AND THERE'S SOMETHING
FUNDAMENTALLY UNDEMOCRATIC ABOUT
THAT.
WHEN WE LOOK TO PHILANTHROPISTS,
TO THE RICH TO SOLVE OUR
PROBLEMS, WITH THE IDEA THAT
THEY HAVE SOME SPECIAL
KNOWLEDGE, NO DOUBT THEY HAVE
SOME IDEAS, BUT I DON'T THINK WE
WANT TO LIVE IN A SOCIETY WHERE
WE ABDICATE ALL THAT POWER AND
INFLUENCE TO THOSE AT THE VERY
TOP.
IF WE... IF WE TAXED
BILLIONAIRES HIGHER, AS IN
FACT...

Steve says AS WARREN BUFFETT
SAYS YOU SHOULD.

Linda says AS WARREN
BUFFETT HAS ARGUED MOST
ELOQUENTLY.
I LOVE HIS QUOTES ON THAT.
AND HE IS A REAL HERO, I THINK.
IF WE FOLLOW THAT, YOU KNOW,
MORE CLOSELY, WE'D HAVE THE
GREATER TAX REVENUE.
THEN WE COULD COLLECTIVELY MAKE
DECISIONS ABOUT WHERE ALL THIS
MONEY IS GOING TO GO.

Steve says LET ME GET A SENSE
FROM ANAND AS TO WHETHER OR NOT
THIS IS PRIMARILY AN AMERICAN
PHENOMENON THAT YOU REPORT ON,
OR IS IT IN OTHER PLACES IN THE
WORLD AS WELL?

The caption changes to "But not in Canada?"

Anand says YOU
KNOW, I LEARNED A LONG TIME AGO
THAT IT'S BETTER TO BOUND THESE
THINGS.
I WROTE ABOUT THIS AS AN
AMERICAN PHENOMENON, AND I THINK
IT'S ALWAYS BETTER TO HAVE
PEOPLE TELL YOU THAT THIS
RESONATES WITH WHAT THEY'RE
SEEING ELSEWHERE, WHICH HAS BEEN
HAPPENING A LOT.
BUT I DO THINK IN MANY WAYS A
CERTAIN PART OF IT IS AMERICAN.
THE RISE OF THE GLOBAL 1 percent IS NOT
AN AMERICAN PHENOMENON.
BUT THE SOCIAL CHOICE TO HAVE
GOVERNMENT DO LESS OVER THE LAST
GENERATION, TO HAVE BILLIONAIRES
AND CORPORATIONS EARN MORE
PROFITS BECAUSE OF LOWER TAXES
AND LESS REGULATION, AND THEN TO
HAVE SOME OF THAT MONEY THAT
ENDS UP IN THEIR PROFITS AND IN
THEIR WEALTH SOLVE SOME OF THOSE
SOCIAL PROBLEMS THAT GOVERNMENT
IS DOING LESS OF, THAT IS
SOMEWHAT A UNIQUELY AMERICAN
PHENOMENON.

The caption changes to "tvo.org/theagenda; agendaconnect@tvo.org."

Anand continues YOU CAN SEE IT ELSEWHERE, BUT
WE'VE PRACTISED THAT KIND OF
GAME MORE THAN OTHERS.
I THINK, JUST TO PICK UP ON SOME
OF THE EARLIER POINTS.
ONE OF THE THINGS I FOUND IN THE
BOOK AND I WAS LOOKING AT SOME
OF THE TERMINOLOGY THAT THESE
FOLKS POPULARIZE, WIN-WIN, DOING
WELL BY DOING GOOD, YOU NOW FIND
INDIGENT COLLEGE STUDENTS IN
POOR COUNTRIES WRITINGESS SAYS ON THE... ESSAYS ON THE INTERNET
ADOPTING SOCIAL CHANGE MUST BE A
WIN-WIN.
AND MY PROBLEM WITH THAT IS,
THOSE ARE... IT'S IN THE OBVIOUS
INTERESTS OF ELITES TO HAVE
SOCIAL CHANGE ALWAYS BE A
WIN-WIN.
BECAUSE WHAT THAT MEANS IS,
LET'S HELP OTHERS IN WAYS THAT
DON'T HURT US AND MAYBE HELP US
WIN.
LET'S DO IMPACT INVESTING,
SOCIAL ENTERPRISES, MAKE OUR
MONEY AND THEN DO PHILANTHROPY.
AND MY CONCERN IS NOT THAT THERE
AREN'T SOME PEOPLE DOING SYSTEM
CHANGE.
MY CONCERN IS THAT OUR
CONVERSATION ABOUT SOCIAL CHANGE
HAS BECOME ONE THAT IS DOMINATED
BY AN ETHIC OF THE WIN-WIN,
WHICH IS THAT THE MOST
MEANINGFUL, IMPORTANT, AND
CORRECT KIND OF SOCIAL CHANGE,
GIVE A KICK-BACK TO THE WINNERS.
I'M CONCERNED ABOUT THAT BEING A
DOMINANT TENDENCY IN OUR
CULTURE.

Linda says AND I THINK
THAT THE BIAS OF A LOT OF THOSE
BILLIONAIRES IS SO CLEARLY THE
MARKET SYSTEM, OUT OF WHICH
THEY'VE DONE SO WELL.
IF WE HAD MORE... MORE PUBLIC
CONTROL OVER WHERE THE MONEY IS
GOING, THERE COULD BE MORE
INVESTMENT AND FOCUS ON PUBLIC
SOLUTIONS...

Steve says I SEE MATTHEW TRYING
TO GET IN IN NEW YORK.
GO AHEAD, MATTHEW.

Matthew says THERE
REALLY ARE GOOD BILLIONAIRES AND
BAD BILLIONAIRES AND LEFT WING
PHILANTHRO CAPITALISTS AND RIGHT
WING PHILANTHRO CAPITALISTS.
IT IS DUE TO A 40-YEAR CAMPAIGN
BY PHILANTHROPISTS ON THE RIGHT
TO TRY TO CHANGE THE FUNDAMENTAL
NATURE OF SOCIETY, WHICH I THINK
PHILANTHROPISTS ON THE MORE
PROGRESSIVE SIDE NEED TO LEARN
FROM AND UNDERSTAND HOW THEY DID
THAT AND WHAT WORKED AND AGAIN
WHAT DIDN'T.

Steve says LET ME JUMP IN HERE.
ONE OF THE FUNDAMENTAL TRUTHS OF
THIS BUSINESS IS THAT OUR
SATELLITES HAVE A FINITE AMOUNT
OF TIME, AND WE'RE ABOUT TO LOSE
OURS TO NEW YORK CITY.
WE HAVE ABOUT A MINUTE AND A
HALF TO GO.
ANAND, YOU'VE HEARD WHAT YOU'VE
HEARD.
DO YOU WANT TO COME IN WITH SOME
CONCLUDING COMMENTS ABOUT WHERE
WE OUGHT TO BE GOING WITH THIS?

The caption changes to "Who decides the future?"

Anand says LOOK, I
THINK YOU HAVE TO DECIDE AS A
REGULAR CITIZEN LISTENING TO
THIS WHO YOU WANT SHAPING YOUR
FUTURE.
I AM NOT CALLING FOR AN END TO
CAPITALISM, AN END TO
PHILANTHROPY, OR AN END TO
PHILANTHRO-CAPITALISM.
YOU KNOW WHEN YOU STAND ON YOUR
FEET AND YOU SHIFT YOUR WEIGHT
FROM ONE FOOT TO ANOTHER?
BOTH FEET ARE STILL ON THE
GROUND.
BUT I THINK WE HAVE LIVED IN AN
AGE THAT HAS PUT WAY TOO MUCH
WEIGHT ON THE PRIVATE, ON WHAT
WE DO ALONE, ON BUSINESS AND
THEN ON THE SPOILS OF BUSINESS
SOLVING SOCIAL PROBLEMS.
AND I'M CALLING FOR MERELY A
SHIFT IN OUR WEIGHT AS A SOCIETY
IN THE UNITED STATES TO THE
OTHER FOOT, TO PUBLIC-SPIRITED
ACTION, TO REFORMING THE DEEP
SYSTEMS WE SHARE IN COMMON.
SO, YES, HAVING RICH PEOPLE PAY
MORE TAXES.
TO NOT HAVE UNEQUAL PUBLIC
SCHOOLS.
AND I THINK YOUR VIEWERS AND
PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD NEED TO
THINK ABOUT, DO YOU WANT TO LIVE
IN A SOCIETY FUNDAMENTALLY
SHAPED AND RESHAPED BY PEOPLE
WHO HAPPEN TO MAKE A GREAT BET
ON A HEDGE FUND OR HAPPEN TO
START A STARTUP IN SILICON
VALLEY?
OR DO YOU WANT IT TO BE SHAPED
BY YOU?
AND THAT IS A FUNDAMENTAL VALUES
CHOICE THAT WE ALL FACE AND WE
FACE ACUTELY IN THE UNITED
STATES RIGHT NOW.

Steve says WE SHOULD REMIND
EVERYBODY THE NAME OF THE BOOK
IS CALLED "WINNERS TAKE ALL: THE
ELITE CHARADE OF CHANGING THE WORLD."
ANAND GIRIDHARADAS IS THE AUTHOR.
AS YOU CAN TELL, THIS IS A TOPIC
THAT DOES PROVOKE SOME PASSION.
SO WE ARE DELIGHTED THAT THE
FOUR OF YOU WOULD COME ON TVO
TONIGHT TO TALK ABOUT IT.
ANAND GIRIDHARADAS, MATTHEW
BISHOP IS IN NEW YORK CITY AS
WELL, THE MANAGING DIRECT OF THE
ROCKEFELLER FOUNDATION.
HIS CONTRIBUTION TO THIS MANY
YEARS AGO,
"PHILANTHRO-CAPITALISM: HOW THE
RICH CAN SAVE THE WORLD."
HERE IN OUR TORONTO STUDIO,
LINDA McQUAIG,
JOURNALIST, AUTHOR,
"BILLIONAIRES' BALL: GLUTTONY
AND HUBRIS IN AN AGE OF EPLIC
INEQUALITY."
AND RUDYARD GRIFFITHS WHO IS AT
THE MUNK SCHOOL OF GLOBAL
AFFAIRS AT U OF T AND ALSO AN
ADVISOR TO MANY OF THE... WHAT
DO WE CALL THEM?...
THE WEALTHIER FOUNDATIONS.

Rudyard says LARGE FOUNDATIONS.

The caption changes to "Producer: Eric Bombicino, @ebombicino."

Steve says GOOD ENOUGH.
WE SHALL DO THAT.
THANK YOU, EVERYONE.
APPRECIATE YOUR TIME TONIGHT.

All the guests say THANK YOU STEVE.

Watch: The New Age of Billionaire Philanthropy