Transcript: Museums: Repatriation, and Ownership | Dec 03, 2018

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and spotted gray tie.

A caption on screen reads "Museums: Repatriation and ownership. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says IT'S A QUESTION THAT
MUSEUMS AROUND THE WORLD
STRUGGLE WITH.
WHO OWNS ART, ANTIQUITIES,
CULTURAL ARTIFACTS AND EVEN
HUMAN REMAINS, TAKEN BY COLONIAL
POWERS OVER THE PAST FEW
CENTURIES IN FROM THE SO-CALLED
ELGIN MARBLES REMOVED FROM
GREECE TO THE CULTURAL ARTIFACTS
OF CANADA'S FIRST NATIONS
DISPLAYED AROUND THE GLOBE.
THERE ARE GROWING Demands FOR
SUCH ITEMS TO BE RETURNED.
WHAT'S A MUSEUM TO DO?
JOINING US NOW TO EXPLORE THAT
IN VICTORIA, BRITISH COLUMBIA,
VIA SKYPE, LUCY BELL, HEAD OF
FIRST NATIONS AND REPATRIATION
AT THE ROYAL B.C. MUSEUM...

Lucy is in her forties, with long straight dark hair. she's wearing a blue shirt with a matching necklace, and a hat.

Steve continues AND HERE IN OUR STUDIO, CARA
KRMPOTICH, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR
AND DIRECTOR OF MUSEUM STUDIES
AT THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO AND
THE AUTHOR OF "THE
FORCE OF FAMILY, REPATRIATION,
KINSHIP AND MEMORY ON HAIDA GWAII.

Cara is in her late thirties, with long straight graying brown hair. She's wearing a burgundy blazer over a gray blouse.
A picture of her book appears briefly on screen. The cover features a picture of people rowing on two canoes in a lake.

Steve continues AND, GAIL LORD, PRESIDENT,
LORD CULTURAL RESOURCES AND
CO-AUTHOR OF CITIES, MUSEUMS
AND SOFT POWER.

Gail is in her seventies, with blond hair in a bob. She's wearing round glasses, a brown shirt, and a colourful stone necklace.
A picture of her book appears briefly on screen. The cover is pink, with a black and white picture of a city skyline.

Steve continues CARA AND GAIL NICE TO HAVE YOU
HERE AND LUCY FROM THE WEST
COAST.
GAIL, LET'S JUST... ONE OF THE
REASONS WE ARE DOING IS THIS IS
THAT THE ELGIN MARBLES HAVE BEEN
SUCH A BIG CASE FOR SUCH A LONG
TIME, WE COVERED IT ON THE
PROGRAM MANY YEARS AGO AND IT'S
GAINED WORLDWIDE ATTENTION.
HOW COMMON ARE THESE CAMPAIGNS
TO REPATRIATE ANTIQUITIES

A picture shows a close-up of an intricately carved marble slate featuring a scene of war.

Gail says GREAT QUESTION.
THEY ARE NOW OFFICIALLY CALLED
THE PARTHENON MARBLES SO I THINK
THAT'S BEEN A BIG SUCCESS OF THE
CAMPAIGN IS TO SAY IT'S REALLY
NOT ABOUT LORD ELGIN BUT ABOUT
THE PARTHENON AND GREEKS AB
THEIR HERITAGE AND HISTORY.

Steve says HANG ON DO THE BRITS
CALL THEM THAT?

The caption changes to "Gail Lord. Lord Cultural Resources."

Gail says I THINK THEY ARE.
THEY ALSO WANT TO TAKE THE LIME
LIGHT AWAY FROM THE HISTORIC
INCIDENT.
SO, THE HISTORIC INCIDENT IS
VERY CONTESTED.
WAS HE SAVING THEM?
WAS HE PILLAGING.
AND FRANKLY, IT'S A 50-50 THING.
FIFTY-ONE 49, DEPENDING HOW YOU
LOOK AT IT.
IT COULD ONLY HAVE HAPPENED
BECAUSE IT WAS A COLONIAL ERA IN
WHICH EVERYBODY WAS PLUNDERING
FROM DEFEATED COUNTRIES.

Steve says HOW MUCH OF
THE ORIGINAL COUNTRY IS TRYING
TO REPATRIATE SOMETHING ONCE LOST.

A picture shows a series of rectangular objects with warriors carved in bronze.

The caption changes to "Who owns antiquities."

Gail says A LOT IT GOING ON AND
THE TWO HIGH PROFILE ARE THE
BEN AND BRONZES AND THE
PARTHENON MARBLES BUT IT'S GOING
ON ALL THE TIME AND, OF COURSE,
THE RESTITUTION OF WORKS THAT
WERE STOLEN AND PLUNDERED FROM
JEWISH PEOPLE DURING THE NAZI
ERA HAS SHED EVEN MORE LIGHT ON
THIS ISSUE.
PEOPLE ACCEPT THIS BECAUSE IT'S
QUITE RECENT AND IT WAS CLEARLY
THEFT, CLEARLY IN A TERRIBLE
MOMENT OF HISTORY.
BUT, THE ACCEPTANCE BY MUSEUMS
OF THE MORE DISTANT PAST IS NOT
VERY STRONG.

Steve says LET ME ADD THIS TO
RECORD FROM THE NEW YORK TIMES A
FEW YEARS AGO.

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Cultural nationalism." The quote reads "IN 2007 AT AN OPENING OF AN EXHIBITION OF REPATRIATED ANTIQUITIES, THE ITALIAN VICE PRIME MINISTER AND CULTURAL MINISTER SAID, "THE ODYSSEY OF THESE OBJECTS WHICH STARTED WITH THEIR BRUTAL REMOVAL FROM THE BOWELS OF THE EARTH DIDN'T END ON THE SHELF OF SOME AMERICAN MUSEUM. 'INSTEAD', HE SAID, 'THESE BEAUTIFUL PIECES HAVE RECONQUERED THEIR SOULS.' MORE RECENTLY, THE TURKISH CULTURE AND TOURISM MINISTER
DECLARED "EACH AND EVERY ANTIQUITY IN ANY PART OF THE WORLD SHOULD EVENTUALLY GO BACK TO ITS HOMELAND. THESE POLITICIANS AND OTHERS LIKE THEM MAINTAIN THAT CULTURAL PROPERTY OBJECTS ARE JUST LIKE PEOPLE. IF THEY ARE NOT REPATRIATED THEY WILL REMAIN REFUGEES OR PRISONERS OF WAR."
Quoted from James Cuno, The New York Times. January 21, 2015.

Steve says LET ME GET YOU TO WEIGH IN ON THAT CARA.

The caption changes to "Cara Krmpotich. University of Toronto."

Cara says I THINK THAT'S TRUE.
RUSSELL THORNTON SPOKE POWERFUL
IN THE UNITED STATES THAT... HE
WAS WITH THE NATIONAL MUSEUM OF
THE AMERICAN INDIAN.
HE OFFERED THAT AS LONG AS THE
ARTIFACTS OR HUMAN REMAINS ARE
STILL WITH THE COLONIAL POWER,
ARE STILL OUTSIDE OF THE HOME
TERRITORY, THAT THE OFFENCE IS
NOT PASSED, IT CONTINUES AND THE
HARM IS NOT A PAST HARM BUT AN
ONGOING VIOLENCE.
AND SO HE REALLY SAW
REPATRIATION AS A CHANCE TO HEAL
AND PUT AN END TO HISTORIC
VIOLENCE THAT WAS ONGOING INTO
THE PRESENT.

Steve says LUCY, WHAT'S YOUR
VIEW ON THE NEED TO QUOTE
UNQUOTE REPATRIATE EVERY ITEM OR
OBJECT OR ANTIQUITY THAT WAS
TAKEN FROM SOMEWHERE ELSE ONCE
UPON A TIME?

The caption changes to "Lucy Bell. Royal BC Museum."

A map of the west coast of Canada appears briefly, highlighting the location of Victoria.

Lucy says WELL I'M A STRONG
BELIEVER IN REPATRIATION.
I HELPED TO REPATRIATE OVER 500
OF MY ANCESTORS AND NOW WE ARE
ON A JOURNEY TO REPATRIATE OUR
CULTURAL BELONGINGS.
AND I GREW UP IN A TIME WHERE WE
LEARNED HOW TO HAIDA DANCE,
BEADING AN ICE CREAM BUCKET
BECAUSE WE DIDN'T HAVE DRUMS IN
OUR COMMUNITY, WEARING MASKS
MADE OF PAPER BECAUSE WE DIDN'T
HAVE MASKS IN THE COMMUNITY.
AND MEANWHILE, THERE IS OVER
10,000 HAIDA BELONGINGS
SCATTERED AROUND THE WORLD.
SO I'M A STRONG BELIEVER IN
PEOPLE HAVING THEIR OWN
BELONGINGS.

Steve says LET ME UNPACK THAT
ANSWER.
YOU SAID AT THE BEGINNING 500 OF
YOUR ANCESTORS.
WHAT IS THAT A REFERENCE TO?

Lucy says WHEN I WAS AN INTERN
HERE AT THE ROYAL B.C. MUSEUM I
LEARNED ABOUT HUMAN REMAINS
BEING IN THE MUSEUM AND THE RBCM
AT THE TIME HAD SEVEN OF MY
ANCESTORS FROM MY COMMUNITY, AND
I BEGAN MY JOURNEY OF TRACKING
DOWN ALL OF MY ANCESTORS' HUMAN
REMAINS THAT ENDED UP IN MUSEUMS
THAT HAVE SAT IN MUSEUMS ON
SHELVES, PAPER, PLASTIC BAGS FOR
OVER A HUNDRED YEARS.
AND IT WAS... IT TOOK MY
COMMUNITY OVER 20 YEARS TO BRING
THEM HOME.

Steve says HOW DID THOSE
REMAINS END UP IN MUSEUMS IN
THE FIRST PLACE?

Lucy says I THINK A NUMBER OF
WAYS.
SO, OFTEN IT WAS LOOTING.
SO AS YOU KNOW, WITH SMALLPOX,
INDIGENOUS CULTURES WERE DYING,
SO MY HAIDA GWAII COMMUNITY
DROPPED DOWN TO LESS THAN A
THOUSAND PEOPLE, SO IMAGINE, YOU
KNOW, THAT THE DEATH THAT WAS ON
MY LITTLE ISLAND AND PEOPLE
THINKING THAT THEY WERE SAVING A
BIT OF SOMETHING.
SO COLLECTORS, VISITORS,
SAILORS, UP TO MODERN DAY
ARCHOLOGY THINKING THEY ARE
SAVING A LITTLE BIT OF SOMETHING
THAT WAS DYING.

Steve says CARA AT WHAT POINT
DID THE TIDE TURN SO THAT THIS
CLEARLY BECAME A THING NOT TO
DO, AND REPATRIATION WAS
NECESSARY?

A picture shows several painted masks on display on stands in a wooden room. Several of them have long blond wigs. Other pictures show a native ceremonial outfit with an eagle mask, and an ornate mask carved in wood with a beard made of brown feathers.

Cara says HERE IN CANADA, ONE
OF THE FIRST BIG REPATRIATION
WE SAW WAS THE RETURN OF A
CONFISCATED POTLATCH COLLECTION.
AND THE MATERIAL WAS CONFISCATED
IN THE 1920s.
IT ENDED UP IN THE FEDERAL
MUSEUMS, THE ROYAL ONTARIO
MUSEUMS, AND IN THE 1960S THE
NATION STARTED TO ASK FOR IT
BACK.
AND IT WASN'T UNTIL LATER IN THE
1970s THAT THE FIRST SET OF
MASKS AND POTLATCH REGALIA WENT
HOME TO THE NATION AND THAT WAS
REALLY ONE OF THE FIRST BIG
MOMENTS IN CANADA WHERE WE SAW
THIS AS A POSSIBILITY.

Steve says FOR DECADES YOU
WOULD HAVE HEARD NOTHING ABOUT
THIS.
WHAT PUT IT MORE ON THE FRONT
BURNER.

Cara says IN THAT CASE IT WAS A
CHANGE IN THE LAW, IN THE INDIAN
ACT.
BUT, I THINK INDIGENOUS
COMMUNITIES WERE ALWAYS ASKING
FOR THINGS BACK.
THEY JUST DIDN'T OFTEN GET A
POSITIVE RESPONSE.
DEFINITELY WITH THE NATIVE
AMERICAN GRAVES PROTECTION AND
REPATRIATION ACT THAT CAME INTO
EFFECT IN THE UNITED STATES IN
1990, THAT REALLY PUSHED THE
MUSEUM COMMUNITY BY LARGE IN
NORTH AMERICA IN PARTICULAR, TO
ADDRESS THIS HEAD ON.

Gail says I WOULD SAY THIS IS A
GREAT EXAMPLE OF CANADA BEING IN
ADVANCE OF THE REST OF THE
WORLD, BECAUSE... AND THEREFORE
OUR INDIGENOUS PEOPLE BEING
ADVANCED OF THE REST OF THE
WORLD AND THERE IS ALWAYS SO
MUCH TO LEARN FROM INDIGENOUS
PEOPLE.
WHAT'S INTERESTING IS IT ONLY
BECOMES A FACT, IF YOU LIKE, OUT
SIDE CANADA IN 1970, WHICH IS A
VERY INTERESTING DATE.
THAT'S THE DATE WHEN UNESCO
WHICH IS AN IMPORTANT PART OF
THE UNITED NATIONS PASSES ITS
COVENANT FOR RESTITUTION OF
STOLEN AND LOOTED GOODS.
NOW WHAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT
1970?
1970 IS ACTUALLY THE END OF
COLONIALISM ON OUR EARTH.
I THINK THAT THERE IS A COUPLE
OF KEY DATES ABOUT US AS HUMAN
BEINGS WHEN WE CHANGE AS HUMAN
BEINGS THROUGH LAW... MAYBE NOT
IN OUR NATURE.
ONE IS 1970.
THERE REALLY ARE NO MORE
COLONIES THERE ARE NEO COLONIES
BUT NO REALLY LEGAL COLONIES
INTERNATIONALLY AT A THAT TIME.
IT BECOMES POSSIBLE TO ACTUALLY
THINK ABOUT THIS AS AN UNIVERSAL
STANDARD OF BEHAVIOUR.
THE OTHER DATE I'LL BE HAPPY TO
TALK ABOUT IS 2008 WHICH IS THE
FIRST TIME WHEN HUMAN BEINGS
BEING URBAN DWELLERS, MORE THAN
50 PERCENT.
SO IN OUR LIFETIME, SOME OF OUR
LIFETIMES, WE HAVE THESE TWO BIG
WATER SHED CHANGES IN HUMAN
RELATIONS.
NOW, WHAT'S INTERESTING, I
THINK, AND SIGNIFICANT AND
REALLY TOUGH, IS OKAY, YOU HAVE
A RECOGNITION IN 1970,
COLONIALISM IS OVER.
SO NOW WE HAVE TO HAVE A NEW
APPROACH.
MEANWHILE, INDIGENOUS PEOPLE IN
CANADA HAVE ALREADY STARTED
DEMANDING REST INSTITUTION AND
AN END TO THEIR HUMILIATION.
LET'S PUT RESTITUTION AND
HUMILIATION ARE CLOSELY RELATED.
AND YET HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE TO
CHANGE HUMAN NATURE?
HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE TO CHANGE
THE BEHAVIOUR OF MUSEUMS FROM
BEING HAND MAIDENS OF
COLONIALISM, TO SOMETHING ELSE.

Steve says LET ME PUT THAT
QUESTION TO LUCY.
I GUESS WHEN THE REPATRIATION
REQUESTS GO INTO MUSEUMS AND
IT'S NOW OFFICIAL, HOW DO
MUSEUMS TEND TO RESPOND TO THOSE
KINDS OF REQUESTS?

Lucy says IN MY EXPERIENCE WE
HAD MUCH BETTER LUCK WITH
CANADIAN MUSEUMS SO STARTING
LOCALLY, MUSEUMS IN BRITISH
COLUMBIA WHO WE ALREADY HAD
RELATIONSHIPS WITH, THEY WERE
MUCH
AND BUILDING A RELATIONSHIP.
THE FURTHER AWAY WE GOT FROM
HOME, THE MORE DIFFICULT TO
BECAME.
GETTING INTO EUROPE, ASKING TO
HAVE A MEETING SIX MONTHS DOWN
THE ROAD, WE WERE OFTEN MET WITH
SORRY, SORRY BUT WE'RE BUSY IN
SIX MONTHS.

Steve says DO YOU WANT TO NAME
AND SHAME THERE, LUCY.
I DON'T MIND IF YOU DO. WHO IS
THE MUSEUM THAT SAID SORRY WE'RE
BUSY SIX MONTHS FROM NOW, WE'RE
WASHING OUR HAIR?

Lucy says IT WAS THE PIT RIVERS
MUSEUM AT OXFORD AND I FELT...
WE FELT VERY PORT NAT WHEN
CARA... FORTUNATE WHEN CARA CAME
ON BOARD AND LIVED WITH ME TO
STUDY HAIDA REPATRIATION WHILE
SHE WAS STUDYING AT OXFORD.

Steve says DO YOU WANT TO PICK
UP THAT STORY, CARA?

The caption changes to "Cara Krmpotich, @MMStCara."

Cara says SURE.
AS A DOCTORAL STUDENT I WAS
INTERESTED IN REPATRIATION AND I
THOUGHT IT WAS GOING TO ALIGN
WITH TREATY RIGHTS IN CANADA.
AND AS I STARTED TO LEARN MORE
ABOUT REPATRIATION HISTORY IN
CANADA PARTICULARLY FROM
INDIGENOUS PERSPECTIVE, THE
HAIDA REPATRIATION COMMITTEE
CAME UP TIME AND TIME AGAIN AS
PEOPLE DOING INCREDIBLY
PROGRESSIVE WORK.
THEY WERE DOING IT FROM AN
ETHICAL POSITION, AND SO I ASKED
IF I COULD COME AND LEARN ABOUT
WHAT THEY WERE DOING.
AND THE PROCESS THEY UNDER TOOK.
SO LUCY AGREED I COULD COME AND
LIVE WITH HER AND HER FAMILY AND
PEOPLE IN SKIDGATE HOSTED ME AND
ENABLED ME TO LIVE WITH THEY
WILL AND UNDERSTAND WHAT
REPATRIATION MEANT.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Steve says TELL ME THIS.
WHEN YOU MAKE AN OFFICIAL
REQUEST TO A MUSEUM AND THEY SAY
TO YOU NOT ONLY ARE WE NOT
INTERESTED IN RETURNING THIS
OBJECT BUT WE'RE NOT EVEN
PREPARED TO TAKE A MEETING WITH
YOU TO TALK ABOUT THIS.
WHAT DO YOU DO THEN?

Cara says A FEW THINGS HAPPENED
WITH PIT RIVERS.
ONE
SIGH COLLEAGUE OF OURS, LAURA
PIERS JOINED.
SHE CAME FROM CANADA.
SHE WAS OPEN, LAURA AND I WERE
BOTH TRAINED IN THE SPIRIT OF
THE TASK FORCE REPORT WRITTEN BY
THE CANADIAN MUSEUM AND ASSEMBLY
OF FIRST NATIONS THAT CAME OUT
IN 1992.
IT WAS MUCH More ABOUT AN
ETHICAL RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN
MUSEUMS AND INDIGENOUS
COMMUNITIES.
AND SO LARA WAS OVER IN THE U.K.
SHE HAD A NUMBER OF STUDENTS WHO
CAME TO STUDY REPATRIATION AB RD
PIT RIVERS STARTED TO OWE YOU.
WE HAD 11 HAIDAS COME TO THE
MUSEUM AND THE HAIDA
REPATRIATION COMMITTEE BROUGHT
21 PEOPLE AND FILLED THE MUSEUM
WITH JOY AND LAUGHTER AND SONG
AND LANGUAGE AND CULTURE.

Steve says DID IT MOVE
YARDSTICKS A THE ALL.

Cara says IT DID.

Steve says IT DID.

Cara says AND AFTER THAT VISIT
THE REQUEST WENT BACK IN FOR
LUCY'S ANCESTOR AND WE WERE ABLE
TO GET THAT ANCESTOR BACK HOME
WITHIN A YEAR.

Lucy says IT WAS THREE MONTHS, CARA.
YES.
IT HAPPENED TO QUICKLY.
AND IN THE SPIRIT OF FRIENDSHIP
WHICH IS HOW... YOU KNOW, WE'RE
CANADIAN, SO YOU KNOW, WE'LL
ALWAYS ACT IN THE SPIRIT OF
FRIENDSHIP AND COLLABORATION AND
FORGIVENESS AND KINDNESS AND IT
WORKED.

Steve says LET'S DO A DEFINITION
HERE.
GAIL, UNIVERSAL MUSEUM WHAT IS
ARE THEY.

The caption changes to "The universal museums."

Gail says THIS IS SOMETHING
WHERE I DON'T FEEL THE MILK OF
HUMAN KINDNESS AND MAYBE LUCY
WILL HELP ME OUT WITH THIS.
IT'S 19 MUSEUMS, BASICALLY WHO
HAVE MULTICULTURAL AND
MULTINATIONAL COLLECTIONS AND
THEY INCLUDE THE BRITISH MUSEUM,
THE LOUVRE, THE HERMITAGE AND
THE MET IN NEW YORK.

Steve says HOW ABOUT OUR OWN.
ROYAL ONTARIO MUSEUM

Gail says ACTUALLY, APPARENTLY NOT.
NOT AS FAR AS WE KNOW, WE DID
CHECK--THAT'S INTERESTING.
HOPEFULLY SOMEBODY FROM THE ROM
CAN TELL US.
HOPEFULLY, THEY REJECTED THE IDEA
I'D WOULD BE HAPPY IF THEY DID
LUCY DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE ROM'S
STATUS IS AS AN UNIVERSAL
MUSEUM?

Lucy says I'M NOT SURE.

Cara says THEY ARE A UNIVERSAL
MUSEUM BY TYPE, BUT
THEY HAVEN'T SIGNED THE
DECLARATION OF UNIVERSAL MUSEUMS

Steve says THE IMPLICATION OF
SIGNING THAT DECLARATION IS WHAT?

Gail says YOU WON'T RETURN
ANYTHING BASICALLY.

Steve says IF ASKED YOU WILL
RETURN.

Gail says YOU WILL NOT.

Steve says IF ASKED YOU WILL NOT.

Gail says THEY ARE NOT THAT
BOLDFACED ABOUT IT.
THEY SAID WE LOOKED AFTER THESE
OBJECTS FOR YEARS AND SPENT
MONEY DOING IT AND WE ARE GREAT
SIGHTS, THE WHOLE WORLD COMES TO
OUR DOOR IF YOU ARE IN NEW YORK,
PARIS OR LONDON OR FRANKLY IF
YOU ARE IN ST. PETERSBURG AS
WELL.
SO EVERYBODY CAN COME HERE AND
SEE IT.
WE PROTECT THEM AND WE ARE NOT
WAR-LIKE PEOPLE, WE'RE NOT ABOUT
TO BE IN WAR WHICH IS CRAZY
BECAUSE IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE
DESTRUCTION DURING THE 18TH
CENTURY DURING THE WARS OF
RELIGION, HOW MUCH WAS ACTUALLY
DESTROYED IN THESE COUNTRIES,
IT'S JUST KIND OF BEGS THE
QUESTION, YOU CAN'T BE SURE
ABOUT THIS FOREVER.
BUT I THINK THERE IS SOMETHING
ELSE TO THINK ABOUT.
ALL THE 19 ARE IN THE NORTH OF
THE HEMISPHERE.
NOT A SINGLE ONE IS IN THE
SOUTH.
SO I THINK THAT THIS IS AN ISSUE
OF HOW ARE WE GOING TO LIVE
TOGETHER ON EARTH... THIS ISN'T
JUST A QUESTION OF WHO OWNS,
WHAT IS THE PROVENANCE-- AND I
THINK YOUR STORY, YOUR HAPPY
STORY IS MAYBE AT THE ROOT OF
WHAT WE HAVE TO DO BECAUSE THE
LEGALISTIC APPROACH IS NOT GOING
ANYWHERE.

Steve says HUMOUR ME HERE FOR A
SECOND, CAUSE
THERE'S NOT A DEBATE
IF YOU DON'T HAVE TWO SIDES.
HERE IS WHAT THE OTHER SIDE
HAS TO SAY ABOUT THIS.
CAN WE PUT THIS GRAPHIC UP.

A quote appears on screen, under the title "What is in the public good?" The quote reads "Critics of repatriation argue that returning human remains or cultural artifacts to the cultures of origin could set a precedent that would eventually decimate museum and university collections, and result in loss of information regarding the history of humanity. Museums, such as those that have signed the 'Declaration on the importance and value of universal museums' (2004), assert that an object does more for the public good in their collections because diverse objects are able to teach society about other cultures, and build appreciation and acceptance through examining multicultural artifacts displayed next to one another."
Quoted from Caitlin S. Wunderlich, The Museum Scholar. 2017.

Steve says OKAY, THAT'S THE ARGUMENT.
LUCY.
YOU PERSUADED AT ALL BY THAT?

Lucy says ABSOLUTELY NOT.

Steve says YOU ARE NOT
PERSUADED BECAUSE WHY?

The caption changes to "Lucy Bell, @RoyalBCMuseum."
Then, it changes again to "The universal museums."

Lucy says WELL THAT KNOWLEDGE
IS NEEDED BY THE PEOPLE WHOSE
BELONGING THEY BELONG TO.
THE SONGS, THE STORIES, THE
FAMILY CONNECTIONS THAT GO WITH
MY HAIDA BELONGINGS THAT ARE IN
WASHINGTON OR EUROPE.
WHO BETTER KNOWS ABOUT THOSE
THAN ME AND MY PEOPLE, AND I
THINK OF THIS ONE PIECE THAT
STOOD OUT TO ME THAT'S IN THE
PIT RIVERS MUSEUM AND IT'S THESE
CARVED SALMON AND THEY ARE USED
FOR... WHEN THE SALMON STOCKS
WERE LOW, YOU KNOW AND THE WORLD
IS IN SUCH CRISIS RIGHT NOW, OUR
OCEANS ARE IN CRISIS AND TO BE
ABLE TO REACH TO THAT
SPIRITUALITY, MY TRADITIONAL
BELIEFS TO HELP OUR OCEANS AND
THOSE BELONGINGS ARE SITTING IN
OXFORD, THAT'S NOT DOING ANYBODY
ANY GOOD.

Steve says THERE, GAIL, ANY
VALIDITY TO THE ARGUMENT THAT IT
MAKES SOME SENSE TO VISIT ONE
MUSEUM AND SEE THE ENTIRE SPAN
OF HUMAN HISTORY IN ONE PLACE
AND LET ME ADD THIS CAVEAT, A
LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH
MONEY NECESSARILY TO TRAVEL ALL
OVER THE WORLD TO SEE ALL THESE
THINGS.
SO, IS THERE ANY LOGIC TO HAVING
THEM ALL UNDER ONE ROOF?

The caption changes to "Gail Lord, @Gail_Lord."

Gail says THERE IS IF WHAT THAT
STATEMENT THAT YOU SAID WAS TRUE.
SO, IF YOU HAVE BEEN... AND I
THINK A LOT OF YOUR VIEWERS HAVE
WITHIN TO THE LOUVRE AND MANY TO
THE BRITISH MUSEUM OR TO THE MET
OR THESE OTHER MUSEUMS.
WHAT THEY WILL SEE IS THEY WILL
NOT SEE OBJECTS FROM DIFFERENT
CULTURES SIDE BY SIDE, THEY WILL
SEE A PARTICULAR INTERPRETATION
OF CIVILIZATION WHICH SUITS,
REALLY AN IMPERIAL MIND SET OF
THE 19TH CENTURY IT'S NOT EVEN
20TH CENTURY MIND SET, WHICH HAS
MOVED ON.
SO NOW WE HEAR THE BRITISH
MUSEUM WILL REINSTALL ITS
COLLECTIONS WHICH WILL TAKE 15
OR 20 YEARS AND THE LOUVRE HAS
DONE IT BY THE WAY, A BRILLIANT
JOB OF DOING EXACTLY THAT KIND
OF INSTALLATION IN ABU DHABI BUT
THEY ARE NOWHERE... ANYWHERE
NEAR THE INTENTION OF DOING THAT
IN PARIS.
SO, IT'S TRUE, YOU CAN SEE
EVERYTHING UNDER ONE ROOF BUT
YOU DON'T SEE A COMPARISON OF
CULTURES AND YOU DON'T SEE A
MULTICULTURAL INTERPRETATION AT
ALL.
THERE IS A LOT OF TRUTH TO THE
IDEA THAT SCHOLARS... IT'S
CONVENIENT FOR SCHOLARS TO DO
ONE STOP SHOPPING, THAT'S A TRUE
STATEMENT.
AND IT'S ALSO TRUE TO SAY THERE
IS LOTS OF RESEARCH THAT NEEDS
TO BE DONE.
BUT THESE ARE ESSENTIALLY HUMAN
PROCESSES AND IF WE WANT HUMAN
PROCESSES WE HAVE TO HAVE A
HUMAN WAY OF ADDRESSING THEM.
GETTING THE STORIES.
AND SO I ACTUALLY HAVE A
QUESTION FOR.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Steve says HANG ON BEFORE YOU
GO THERE I HAVE A QUESTION FOR
CARA.

Cara says I WOULD LOVE TO SEE
IF WE COULD MOVE TO A MUSEUM
WHETHER IT'S UNIVERSAL OR LOCAL
WHERE ALL THE ITEMS WERE
COLLECTED THROUGH FREE AND
INFORMED CONSENT.
SO, WITH RESEARCH...

Gail says GREAT IDEA, YES.

Cara says IN RESEARCH THE
ETHICAL PROTOCOL IS THAT PEOPLE
HAVE TO OFFER FREE AND INFORMED
CONSENT.
IF THERE ARE OTHER PARAMETERS
THOSE ARE EXCEPTIONAL
CIRCUMSTANCES.
WHAT WOULD IT BE FOR THE HAIDA
NATION TO DECIDE WHICH OF THEIR
PIECES WOULD BE AMBASSADORS FOR
THEIR NATION AROUND THE WORLD
AND THAT THEY COULD OFFER THOSE?
IF THEY SO CHOSE.
AND TO PUT THOSE INTO
CONVERSATION.
THERE ARE A LOT OF... SOUTH
CONVERSATIONS AND NORTH
CONVERSATIONS HAPPENING.
BUT WHAT WE NEED IS FOR PEOPLE
TO ACTIVELY OPT IN NOT JUST SAY
WE HAVE HAD IT ALL THIS TIME AND
THEREFORE WE'RE JUST GOING TO
CONTINUE TO DO IT.

Steve says DOES SUCH A MUSEUM EXIST TODAY?

Cara says NOT THAT I KNOW OF
ENTIRETY, THOUGH I HAVE SEEN
THE DENVER MUSEUM OF NATURE AND
SCIENCE MOVING TOWARDS THIS,
PARTICULARLY WITH HUMAN REMAINS
AND THEIR COLLECTIONS.

Steve says AND CARA IF YOU WERE
HERE WAY OFFICIAL OF THE BRITISH
MUSEUM WHO THEN SAID TO YOU,
"GREAT, LET'S DO THAT AND BE
COMPLETELY CLEANED OUT OF
ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING AND WE'LL
CEASE TO EXIST," HOW DOES THAT
HELP HUMANITY.

Cara says IT'S NEVER HAPPENED
THAT I TRUCK BACKED UP AND
EMPTIED OUT A MUSEUM.
WE HEAR THIS TIME AND TIME AGAIN
IT WILL EMPTY MUSEUMS AND OPEN
THE FLOOD GATES.
IN THE HISTORY SO FAR OF
REPATRIATION THIS HAS NOT
HAPPENED.
WE HAVE NO PRECEDENT FOR IT.

Steve says BUT IF YOU TAKE YOUR
ARGUMENT TO THE LOGICAL
EXTENSION HOW MUCH OF THE
BRITISH MUSEUM WOULD HAVE TO BE
EMPTIED OUT IF YOU REPATRIATE
EVERYTHING IN THERE THAT'S NOT
FROM THE U.K.

Cara says IT'S NOT THAT
EVERYTHING WOULD NECESSARILY
LEAVE.
COMMUNITIES OF ORIGIN WOULD HAVE
THE OPTION TO SAY YES OR NO, HOW
ABOUT WE SEND THIS INSTEAD.
WE WOULD LIKE TO HIGHLIGHT
CONTEMPORARY ARTISTS.
LET'S SEND CONTEMPORARY ART FOR
AWHILE.
MAYBE... WOMEN ARE UNDER
REPRESENTED IN COLLECTIONS.
MAYBE WE WOULD HAVE A BETTER
INSIGHT INTO WOMEN'S LIVES
THROUGH TIME AND HISTORY.

Steve says IS IT POSSIBLE, GAIL
THAT SOME OF THE ORIGINATING
COMMUNITIES COULD SAY ACTUALLY
YOU ARE DOING A GOOD JOB HOSTING
OUR PIECES THIS WAY.
WE'LL LEAVE THEM THERE UNDER THE
PROVISO WE OWN THEM?

Gail says I THINK THERE IS A
POSSIBILITY.
AND ACTUALLY, I WANT TO ASK LUCY
THIS.
WHEN I WENT TO THE MUSEUM WHICH
IS A CLIENT OF OURS AND I WENT
THROUGH A COLLECTION THAT WAS ON
DISPLAY AND I SAW MAGNIFICENT
HAIDA MATERIAL.

Steve says WHERE IS THIS GAIL?

A picture appears on screen of a poster for an art exhibit. It displays works by Picasso and reads "Picasso. From Africa to the Americas. Face-to-face, past and present."

Gail says IT'S IN PARIS, IT'S
EQUIVALENT OF THEIR... A FAIRLY
NEW NATIONAL ETHNOGRAPHY MUSEUM.
AND WE ALL HAVE OUR GUILTY
SECRETS.
SO THERE I AM AND I AM THINKING
WOW, CANADIAN INDIGENOUS OBJECTS
ARE BEAUTIFUL ENOUGH... BECAUSE
THE FRENCH ARE ALWAYS IN THE
BEAUTY BUSINESS.
BEAUTIFUL ENOUGH TO BE INCLUDED
HERE.
AND THEN, AFTER PEOPLE WHO SAW
THE WONDERFUL, FANTASTIC PICASSO
EXHIBITION AT THE MONTREAL
MUSEUM OF FINE ARTS, REALIZE
THAT THOSE OBJECTS REALLY HAD A
PROFOUND EFFECT ON THE ENTIRE OF
MODERN ART AND IF PICASSO HADN'T
SEEN THEM WHAT WAS THEN IN THE
MUSEUM OF MANN, PROBABLY ART
WOULD NOT BE ANYTHING LIKE WHAT
WE KNOW IT IS TODAY.

Steve says YOU INTRODUCED A
WRINKLE HERE.

Gail says LUCY, UNDER WHAT
CIRCUMSTANCES DO YOU THINK IT'S
IMPORTANT THAT THESE OBJECTS DO
BE IN MUSEUMS ALL OVER THE WORLD
AND NOT JUST IN THE NORTH BUT
ALSO IN THE SOUTH?
AND HOW WOULD YOU GO ABOUT IT?

Lucy says BIG QUESTION.
I OFTEN THINK OF THE ART OF BILL
REID, HIS BEAUTIFUL MASTER
PIECES ARE ALL OVER THE WORLD
AND THEY TELL BEAUTIFUL STORIES
OF THE HAIDA AND REPRESENT HAIDA
AND NORTHWEST COAST, CANADA SO WELL.

A picture shows Bill Reid, clean-shaven, in his late forties, standing next to a black-on-white mural in the shape of an orca, in Haida style.
Another picture shows a sculpture of an eagle standing on top of a shell from which emerge human figures.
A third picture shows a Haida style drawing of an eagle.

Lucy continues AND IT WAS A CHOICE.
HE MADE THAT CHOICE TO MAKE
THOSE PIECES AND HAVE THEM ALL
OVER THE WORLD.
I THINK THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE
THAT I SEE, THAT FOR PEOPLE TO
BE MAKING THAT CHOICE, NOT TO
HAVE THEIR BELONGINGS LOOTED OR
SOLD FOR 25 CENTS, THERE IS A
DIFFERENCE.

Steve says CARA, HELP US OUT
WITH A MORE RECENT EXAMPLE.
IT'S I... I GUESS 15 YEARS SINCE
THE INVASION OF IRAQ AND THERE
WAS COMPLETE LAWLESSNESS AND
CONSIDERABLE LOOTING AND THERE
WERE NUMEROUS ANN ANTIQUITIES IN
IRAQ THAT ARE NO LONGER THERE OR
WERE NO LONGER THERE AND MOVED
OUT TO PLACES ALL OVER THE
WORLD.
EFFORTS HAVE BEEN UNDERTAKEN TO
REPATRIATE SOME OF THOSE
OBJECTS.
FILL US IN.
WHAT'S HAPPENED?

Cara says AS I UNDERSTAND WITH
THE IRAQ SITUATION THERE WERE
TWO LEVELS.
ONE WAS HIGHLY ORGANIZED
TARGETED LOOTING AND ONE WAS
VERY SORT OF SPONTANEOUS, PEOPLE
FROM THE AREA WHO WERE LOOKING
FOR THINGS TO HELP THEM SURVIVE
IN A WAR.
SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WERE
TAKEN FOR THE MUSEUM... FROM THE
MUSEUM WERE FURNITURE AND THINGS
THAT PEOPLE COULD SELL READILY
OR USE IN THEIR HOMES AND OTHER
THINGS WERE ARTIFACTS.
THE LAST NUMBER I HAVE NOW, THIS
IS A LITTLE BIT OUT OF DATE, BUT
15,000 ITEMS WERE LOOTED AND
6,000 HAD BEEN RETURNED.
QUITE QUICKLY IN THE FIRST
INTERVENING MONTHS, THE FIRST
FEW INTERVENING MONTHS.
SINCE THEN, VARIOUS
INTERNATIONAL BODIES TRIED TO
HELP IN THESE SITUATIONS.
SO, INTERPOL HAS A DATA BASE OF
MISSING ART.
ICOM WILL RELEASE RED LISTS WHEN
THERE IS GLOBAL CRISIS WHETHER
IT IS FROM CIVIL CONFLICT OR
CIVIL WAR OR NATURAL DISASTERS
AND THEY WILL PUBLICIZE THE
KINDS OF ITEMS THAT ARE LIKELY
TO ENTER THE MARKET AND RAISE
AWARENESS AMONGST PEOPLE TO NOT
PURCHASE THEM IF THEY ENCOUNTER
THEM AT AUCTION OR IF THEY
ENCOUNTER THEM ON A MARKET TO
NOTIFY AUTHORITIES AND HOPEFULLY
STOP THEM FROM ENTERING THE
BLACK MARKET AND THERE ARE
PEOPLE WHO SPECIALIZE IN
UNDERSTANDING THE BLACK MARKET
AND HOW, ESSENTIALLY, THE
PROCESS OF MONEY LAUNDERING
HAPPENS THROUGH ANTIQUITIES AND
SO CERTAIN PORTS ARE LIKELY TO
FOR RAJ EXPORT PERMITS OR MIGHT
FORGE... FORGE EXPORT PERMITS.
AND SO IT'S TREATED LIKE
ORGANIZED CRIME.
WE SEE THIS AGAIN WITH CONFLICT
IN IN SIR YEAH.
AND MY COLLEAGUE AT THE ROM
BELIEVES SYRIAN LOOTING WILL
DWARF THE IRAQI CASE.

Steve says AND TELL US ABOUT
THE BLACK MARKET.
HOW MUCH ACTIVITY IS THERE.

Gail says I CAN'T TELL... I IMAGINE THERE IS A LOT AT ANY
GIVEN POINT IN TIME.
THE WORLD OF ART IS... INCLUDING
CONTEMPORARY WORK BY LIVING
ARTISTS, IS ALL ABOUT THINGS
THAT YOU COULD NEVER DO ON THE
STOCK MARKET.

Steve says BUT HOW DO YOU...
YOU KNOW, HOW DO YOU BUY
SOMETHING ON THE BLACK MARKET...
YOU CAN'T SHOW IT, CAN YOU.

Gail says IT'S PRESENTED TO YOU
BY A LEGITIMATE DEALER, USUALLY,
WHO HAS A PROVENANCE WHICH IS...
OR PROVENANCE IS JUST ONE OF OUR
FANCY WORDS FOR THE CASE HISTORY
OF THE OBJECT, THAT HAS BEEN
FAKED.
WHAT DO YOU THINK?

Cara says ONE OF THE THINGS
PEOPLE OFTEN DON'T REALIZE IS
THE POOR STATE OF MUSEUM
RECORDS.
SO, A LOT OF THE ITEMS IN
MUSEUMS WERE COLLECTED REALLY
BEFORE PHOTOGRAPHY SO THERE
ISN'T AN IMAGE.
YOU MIGHT HAVE VERY CURSORY
DESCRIPTIONS OF PIECES.
AND IF YOU HAVE 5,000 CYLINDERS
FOR EXAMPLE AS THE IRAQ MUSEUM
DID, RARELY ARE THEY ALL
DESCRIBED IN A WAY YOU COULD
SEPARATE ONE FROM THE OTHER.
SO WE HAVE A DOCUMENTATION
CRISIS.
THIS IS TRUE IN TERMS OF
INDIGENOUS HUMAN REMAINS AND
INDIGENOUS ARTIFACTS AS WELL.
OFTEN MUSEUM REFERENCES ARE NOT
SOUND OR NOT COMPLETE ENOUGH TO
GIVE US THE PROVENANCE WE'RE
HOPING FOR.
BUT ALSO, PEOPLE WILL PURCHASE
ON THE BLACK MARKET BECAUSE THEY
LOVE THE PIECE AND THEY KNOW
IT'S ILLEGAL AND THEY KNOW IT'S
WRONG BUT THEY BUY IT ANYWAY.

Steve says AND THEN DISPLAY IT
IN THEIR HOMES?

Cara says SURE OR IN A PRIVATE
COLLECTION.

Steve says AND THEY DON'T WORRY
ABOUT GETTING BUSTED?
GUESS NOT.

Cara says NO.

Steve says LET'S BRING UP THE
PICTURE OF THE CHEST, LUCY, YOU
CAN SEE THAT, YES?

Lucy says I CAN SEE THAT.

A picture shows a carved wood chest, with faces painted on it in shades of orange and green.

Steve says DO YOU WANT TO
DESCRIBE WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT
PLEASE.

Lucy says THIS IS THE MOON
CHEST FROM THE PEOPLE OF
SKIDGATE VILLAGE AND IT'S BEEN
IN NEW YORK FOR A VERY LONG
TIME.
AND IT RECENTLY WENT HOME TO
HAIDA GWAII FOR THE CHIEF'S HOT
BATCH AND IT WAS USED IN
CEREMONY.
THE HAIDA GWAII MUSEUM WHERE THE
HOST... WERE THE HOSTS OF THE
CHEST AND BROUGHT IT HOME ON
LOAN FROM NEW YORK, AND IT WAS
ESCORTED HOME AND USED IN A
CEREMONY WHERE IT WAS FILLED
WITH COPPER SHIELDS THAT THE
CHIEF'S FAMILY GAVE OUT TO
COMMUNITY MEMBERS, AND NOW IT'S
ON LOAN AND SITS IN THE HAIDA
GWAII MUSEUM.

Steve says LET ME READ
SOMETHING THAT MARSHA LEDERMAN
WROTE IN THE GLOBE AND MAIL
ABOUT THIS LAST YEAR.

A quote appears on screen, under the title "A return home." The quote reads "After more than a century away from home, the mountain goat moon chest was allowed to live again. Liberated from museum storage in a foreign land, the iconic chest was wheeled out to the middle of a packed rec centre gym in Skidegate, B.C., on remote Haida Gwaii, as hundreds watched. The crowds were there for a historic potlatch when the surprise guest star stole the show. No protective glass, no roped-off borders -just a dolly separating the chest from the old-growth wood floor where the Haida play basketball. A treasure itself, the box was packed with more: 25 copper shields, important symbols of wealth in Haida culture, which were handed out that Easter weekend in a powerful ceremony."
Quoted from Marsha Lederman, The Globe and Mail. July 8, 2017.

Steve continues LUCY I HAVE TO ASK, WERE YOU THERE AT THAT CEREMONY?

The caption changes to "The patrimony of Haida Gwaii."

Lucy says I WASN'T.
BUT YOU KNOW, I FOLLOWED IT ON
SOCIAL MEDIA AND WE HAVE BEEN
WORKING WITH GUUJAW HERE AT THE
MUSEUM IN VICTORIA AND I HAVE
HEARD SUCH AMAZING THINGS.
AND HOW GREAT THAT OUR
RELATIONSHIP... WE HAVE HAD A
LONG... THE HAIDA HAVE HAD A
LONG RELATIONSHIP WITH THE AMNH.

Steve says THAT'S THE AMERICAN
MUSEUM OF NATURAL HISTORY.

Lucy says YES.
WE HAVE REPATRIATED ANCESTRAL
REMAINS AND DONE EXHIBITS WITH
THEY WILL AND HAD A LOT OF
VISITING ARTISTS GO TO THE
MUSEUM, AND HAVE SOME
LONG-LASTING FRIENDSHIPS THERE.
SO, TO BE AT A POINT NOW IN
HISTORY WHERE BELONGINGS ARE
COMING BACK INTO THE COMMUNITY,
I THINK WE'RE MAKING PROGRESS.

Cara says WHAT I THINK IS
REALLY AMAZING ABOUT THIS STORY
AND THE STORY YOU TOLD THAT
HAPPENED IN OXFORD IS THAT WE
CAN SEE THAT TAKING AWAY OF
PEOPLE'S CULTURE IS PART OF
HUMILIATION AND PART OF MAKING
PEOPLE FEEL INFERIOR.
DISEMPOWERING THEM AND
ULTIMATELY DESTROYING THEM
AND THAT'S WHAT THE NORTH
HAS BEEN ABOUT FOR A FEW
HUNDREDS OF YEARS IN THEIRRELATIONSHIP
BETWEEN BROADLY SPEAKING THE
SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE.
SO I GUESS THE THING THAT'S
SO... I HATE TO SAY
HEART-WARMING BUT IT'S REALLY
VERY HEART-WARMING IS TO SEE
THAT THE IMPACT OF THESE
RETURNS, HOW IT BUILDS
CONFIDENCE AND HOW IT BUILDS
CULTURE AND IS IT POSSIBLE TO
HOPE FOR THE DAY... SO
MEANWHILE, OF COURSE, OUR BIG
MUSEUMS GET MORE AB MORE MEAN
SPIRITED.
THINK ABOUT IT.
BIG PEOPLE FORMERLY FEELING
TERRIBLE ABOUT THEMSELVES, ARE
STARTING TO REGAIN FOR LOTS OF
REASONS, ECONOMIC AS WELL,
REGAIN SELF CONFIDENCE IN
THEMSELVES.
OUR MUSEUMS IN THE NORTH ARE
GETTING MORE AND MORE MEAN.
THEY ARE GETTING MORE AND MORE
LEGALISTIC ABOUT WHAT THEY OWN,
WHAT THEY DON'T, WHAT IS TITLE,
WHAT ISN'T TITLE.
SO, IS THERE A HOPE THAT THIS
KIND OF A SPIRIT OF KINDNESS CAN
BE THE FUTURE AND MAYBE IN
ANOTHER HUNDRED YEARS?
AFTER ALL IT'S ONLY SINCE 1970
THAT WE HAVE OFFICIALLY STOPPED
COLONIALISM?

Cara says WELL, I THINK LUCY IS
RIGHT ABOUT THE AMERICAN MUSEUM
OF NATURAL HISTORY AND THE
RELATIONSHIP WITH THE HAIDA IS
NOT UNCOMMON.
OFTEN WHAT WE SEE IS THE RETURN
OF ARTIFACTS FROM A MUSEUM TO A
COMMUNITY LEADS TO AN IMPROVED
AND CONTINUED ONGOING
RELATIONSHIP.
SO, AFTER THE VISIT OF HAIDAS TO
THE PIT RIVERS MUSEUM OTHER
PROJECTS FOLLOWED, AND THERE ARE
OTHER CASES AS WELL.
I DON'T KNOW IF LARGE MUSEUMS
ARE MEANER.
ONE OF THE THINGS WE SEE
HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IN EUROPEAN
MUSEUMS, PARTICULARLY SAY IN
BERLIN FOR EXAMPLE, IS REFUGEES
BECOMING DOCENTS AND TOUR GUIDES
AND TELLING THEIR HISTORIES WITH
THOSE COLLECTIONS.
AND THIS IS ONE EFFORT ON THE
PART OF MUSEUMS TO THINK ABOUT
SOCIAL HARMONY, TO THINK ABOUT
JUSTICE, TO THINK ABOUT WHAT IT
IS TO BE REFUGEE.
NOW, WE ARE THEN IN THIS
DIFFICULT POSITION BECAUSE
SOMETIMES THOSE COLLECTIONS,
MAYBE THEY WERE NOT COLLECTED
ETHICALLY IN THE FIRST PLACE.
YOU KNOW, THERE IS THE QUESTION
OF SHOULD THEY GO HOME AND MAYBE
THAT'S A LONGER QUESTION AND IN
THE SHORT-TERM, YOU KNOW, WHAT
OTHER WORK WITH THOSE
COLLECTIONS DO?
AND I THINK THE PAIRING OF
REFUGEES AND MUSEUM COLLECTIONS
IS POWERFUL FOR BOTH REFUGEE,
THE COLLECTIONS THEMSELVES, BUT
ALSO SOCIETY.

Steve says LUCY, DO YOU HAVE
ANY SENSE ABOUT HOW MANY ITEMS
ARE STILL OUT THERE THAT YOU
WOULD LIKE IT SEE REPATRIATED?

Lucy says I THINK OUR ESTIMATES
ARE OVER 10,000 HAIDA OBJECTS
ARE OUT THERE.
AND AS FAR AS WE KNOW THERE IS
ONE HAIDA ANCESTOR STILL IN THE
BRITISH MUSEUM.

Steve says SO THIS IS LITERALLY
GENERATIONS AND
GENERATIONS AND GENERATIONS OF
WORK AHEAD, NOT JUST FOR YOU BUT
FOR MANY GENERATIONS TO COME, I
GUESS?

Lucy says OH YEAH, DEFINITELY.
AND I THINK... I THINK NOT ALL
OF THOSE BELONGINGS... I THINK
IT MIGHT BE UNREALISTIC TO THINK
ALL 10,000 OF THOSE WOULD EVER
GO HOME, THAT WE WOULD EVER HAVE
THE SPACE FOR THEM.
THE HAIDA GWAII MUSEUM IS
BURSTING AT THE SEAMS SO YOU
KNOW, IT'S A REPATRIATION IS
SUCH A BIG AND COMPLICATED
ISSUE.

Steve says AND THERE ARE STILL
PRESUMABLY LOTS OF HUMAN REMAINS
THAT STILL NEED REPATRIATING IS
THAT FAIR TO SAY?

Lucy says ALL OVER.
MUSEUMS ALL OVER THE GLOBE.
AND I KNOW MY REPATRIATION WORK
WITH MY ANCESTORS IS PARTLY WHY
THE ROYAL B.C. MUSEUM ASKED ME
TO COME HERE TO HELP REPATRIATE
THE ANISES STORM REMAINS FROM
OUR COLLECTION.

Steve says WE HAVE ABOUT FIVE
MINUTES LEFT HERE AND LET'S GET
INTO SOME OF THE POLITICAL
RESPONSE AROUND THIS AND CARA
LET ME BRING NEW ON THIS.
BILL C391 WHAT IS THAT?

The caption changes to "Bill C-391."

Cara says THIS IS A PRIVATE
MEMBERS BILL.
I BELIEVE IT'S IN ITS 2ND
READING AT THE MOMENT AND IS AN
EFFORT TO CREATE A NATIONAL
STRATEGY, A FEDERAL LAW THAT
SUPPORTS THE RETURN OF
ABORIGINAL CULTURAL PATRIMONY TO
COMMUNITIES.

Steve says REGARDLESS OF WHERE
THEY ARE IN THE WORLD?

Cara says CORRECT.
IT'S NOT LAID OUT EXPLICITLY BUT
THAT IS THE IMPLIED WORDING.

Steve says HOW, GAIL, CAN YOU
FORCE ANOTHER COUNTRY THROUGH A
LAW OF THE CANADIAN PARLIAMENT,
TO TO DO THIS.

Gail says THE WAY THE BILL IS
WRITTEN YOU CAN'T EVEN FORCE
CANADIAN INSTITUTIONS EITHER.
IT'S REALLY VERY MUCH... I THINK
IT'S VERY MUCH IN THE POSITIVE
SPIRIT WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT NOT
PARTICULARLY LEGALISTIC.
IT DOESN'T FORCE ANYBODY TO DO
ANYTHING.
ITS... IT SAYS THIS WOULD BE A
DESIRABLE FUTURE, THAT IT'S
REALLY AN OUTGROWTH OF THE TRUTH
AND RECONCILIATION PROCESS WHICH
CLEARLY IT IS, AND THAT IT IS A
TWO YEAR PERIOD AFTER THE BILL
IS PASSED IN WHICH THERE HAS TO
BE A MAJOR REPORT WHICH WILL
THEN TALK ABOUT PROCESSES AND
PROCEDURES, WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT
BE LEGALLY BINDING.
IN ANY CASE, OUT SIDE OUR OWN
COUNTRY IT WOULD DEPEND ON
DIPLOMACY.

Steve says IS IT ANYTHING MORE
THAN A HOPEFUL STATEMENT OF
INTENT?

Gail says THOSE ARE GOOD THINGS
AS OPPOSED TO HOPEFUL STATEMENTS
OF BAD INTENT, YES, WHICH WE
HAVE A LOT OF IN THE WORLD TODAY
AS A MATTER OF FACT.

Cara says CANADIAN MUSEUMS HAVE
BEEN WORKING SINCE 1992,
INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES AS WELL,
BASED ON HOPEFUL STATEMENTS OF
INTENT.
AND A SET OF ETHICAL PRINCIPLES.
WE HAVEN'T GONE A LEGALISTIC
ROUTE TO DATE SO IT'S
INTERESTING IT'S IN FRONT OF
PARLIAMENT.

Steve says LUCY DO YOU IMAGINE
IF AND WHEN THIS LAW IS PASSED
THAT IT WOULD BE HELPFUL TO YOU
IN YOUR FUTURE REQUESTS?

Lucy says I THINK IT WOULD BE
HELPFUL IF IT'S MORE IN THE
SPIRIT OF THE TASK FORCE REPORT,
ENCOURAGING MUSEUMS TO WORK IN
THE SPIRIT OF FRIENDSHIP AND
COLLABORATION AND
RECONCILIATION, AS OPPOSED TO
NAGPRA WHICH IS GET IT DONE, GET
IT DONE NOW. I THINK THAT WAS
YOU KNOW, MUSEUMS WERE TIRED.
WHEN WE HIT THE MUSEUMS IN THE
UNITED STATES, THE PEOPLE WERE
TIRED AND RESENTFUL AND JUST NOT
WILLING TO
WORK WITH US.
SO I'M HOPEFUL.
I'M ALWAYS HOPEFUL FOR A
POSITIVE CHANGE IN CANADA.

Steve says YOU USED AN ACRONYM
I WASN'T FAMILIAR WITH, NAGPRA.
WHAT DOES THAT STAND FOR?

Lucy says NATIVE AMERICAN GRAVES
REPATRIATION ACT, DID I GET THAT
RIGHT CARA.

Cara says NATIVE AMERICAN
GRAVES PROTECTION ACT.

Steve says GOT IT.
THIS LAW IS NOT IN PLACE YET.
WE ARE RELYING ON THE KINDNESS
OF STRANGERS TO MAKE THIS WORK
OUT. SO GAIL, IN OUR REMAINING
TIME HERE, WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE
IS THE IDEAL WAY
TO GO ABOUT REPATRIATION
REQUESTS?

Gail says I BELIEVE THE IDEAL
PATH FORWARD IS REALLY WHAT CARA
DESCRIBED, WHICH IS THAT WE
SHOULD ALL... AND NOT EVERYTHING
IS INDIGENOUS OR ABORIGINAL
ISSUES.
SOME ARE FROM COUNTRIES WHERE
BORDERS HAVE CHANGED AND PEOPLE
ARE CHANGED AND WHO WAS A GREEK
THEN, WHO IS A GREEK NOW.
THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF ISSUES
BUT COUNTRIES NEED TO SIT DOWN
AND MUSEUMS SIT WITH PEOPLE AND
I THINK ULTIMATELY, PEOPLE ARE
GOING TO WANT THEIR GREAT
OBJECTS TO BE SHOWN AROUND THE
WORLD.
I THINK THAT INDIGENOUS PEOPLE
IN LATIN AMERICA WOULD LOVE TO
SEE THE GREAT ACHIEVEMENTS OF
THE HAIDA BUT IT'S UP TO THE
HAIDA TO DECIDE WHAT THEY DON'T
NEED FILLING THEIR STORAGE
RATHER THAN HAVING IT IN THE
STORAGE OF SOME NORTHERN MUSEUM.
AND LIKEWISE, I THINK IT'S
PROBABLY TRUE ABOUT GREEK
ANTIQUITIES.
I'M SURE PEOPLE FROM GREEK WOULD
LIKE COUNTRIES LIKE LATIN
AMERICA WITH HUGE CITIES IN
AFRICA, IT SEE AND BE INSPIRED
BY THEIR WORK AND THEN COME TO
GREECE.
SO I THINK IT'S ABOUT EMPOWERING
PEOPLE REALLY.

Steve says THEY WANT TO BE THE
DECIDERS?

Gail says DON'T YOU WANT TO BE
TOO.

Steve says I'M NEVER THE
DECIDER.
THEY THINK I AM BUT I AM NEVER
THE DECIDER.

Gail says I THINK THEY WOULD
LOVE TO HAVE MORE AGENCY.

The caption changes to "Producer: Sandra Gionas, @sandragionas."

Steve says I UNDERSTAND THE
INSTINCT.
OKAY.
GOOD.
THANKS, EVERYBODY FOR THIS
CONVERSATION.
CAN WE THANK LUCY BELL WHO IS ON
FROM VICTORIA, BRITISH COLUMBIA
VIA SKYPE, ROYAL B.C. MUSEUM
THAT IS WHERE SHE WORKS AND THE
TWITTER HANDLE AS WELL TO FIND
OUT MORE ABOUT THEM.
GAIL LORD CULTURAL RESOURCES
HERE IN THE BIG
SMOKE AND CARA KRMPOTICH
UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO.
SO GOOD TO HAVE ALL OF YOU ON
TVO TONIGHT.
THANKS SO MUCH.

Lucy and Cara say THANK YOU.

Gail says SUPER.

Watch: Museums: Repatriation, and Ownership