Transcript: The Rise of Hate | Sep 12, 2018

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and checked blue tie.

A caption on screen reads "The rise of hate. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says HER DOCUMENTARY FILMS
HAVE EXPLORED THE BRUTALITY OF
SO-CALLED HONOUR KILLINGS IN THE
U.K. AND THE DREADFUL PHENOMENON
OF WESTERNERS DRAWN TO THE
TERRORIST CALL OF ISIS.
NOW, DEEYAH KHAN HAS TURNED HER
LENS ON THE AMERICAN FAR RIGHT.
AND THE RACIST AND FASCIST
ELEMENTS THAT CONVERGED ON
CHARLOTTESVILLE,, VIRGINIA LAST
YEAR. IT'S CALLED "WHITE RIGHT:
MEETING THE ENEMY."

The film poster appears briefly on screen. It features a portrait of a shirtless, clean-shaven white man with short-cropped blond hair and several tattoos on his body, including a Nazi swastika.

Steve continues AND DEEYAH KHAN JOINS US ON THE
LINE FROM LONDON, U.K. FOR MORE.

Deeyah is in her thirties, with long wavy brown hair. She's wearing a dark gray turtleneck.

Steve continues DEEYAH, IT'S GREAT TO HAVE YOU
ON TVO TONIGHT.
THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

Deeyah says I'M VERY WELL THANK YOU FOR
HAVING ME.

Steve says JUST BEFORE WE SHOW
YOUR PICTURE I THINK IT'S WORTH
TELLING THE NOTION AT HOME WHAT
YOU'VE BEEN UP TO. WE START WIT-
THIS IS JARED TAYLOR.
LEADER OF AN ALT-RIGHT GROUP IN
THE UNITED STATES CALLED THE RENAISSANCE.
SHELDON LET'S ROLL THAT, PLEASE.

A clip plays on screen.

In the clip, Jared Taylor smiles tensely. He's clean-shaven, white, in his sixties.

A caption reads "White right. Meeting the enemy."

Deeyah's voice says AS YOU KNOW I AM A
WOMAN OF COLOUR.

Jared says YES.

Deeyah says I AM THE DAUGHTER OF
IMMIGRANTS.
I AM A MUSLIM.
I AM A FEMINIST.
I AM A LEFTIST.
AND WHAT I WANT TO ASK YOU IS:
AM I YOUR ENEMY?

Jared says YOU'RE NOT SUBJECTIVELY MY ENEMY.
BUT WHAT YOU ARE PROMOTING WILL
LEAD TO THE DISAPPEARANCE OF MY
PEOPLE AND MY CULTURE.
AND I WILL TELL YOU THIS: IT
ANNOYS ME TREMENDOUSLY WHEN I'M
TOLD BY SOME IMMIGRANT OR A
CHILD OF IMMIGRANTS THAT THE
ONLY REASON MY COUNTRY IS
WORTHWHILE IS BECAUSE PEOPLE
LIKE THEM HAVE COME HERE.
IT'S AS IF TO SAY MY ANCESTORS
BUILT A DUNG HEAP AND I DON'T
DOUBT YOUR GOODWILL.
BUT YOUR GOODWILL IS OBJECTIVELY
GOING TO LEAD TO THE OBLIVION OF
MY PEOPLE.
I'M SORRY, THERE IS NO OTHER WAY
TO SEE IT.

The clip ends.

Steve says DEEYAH, LET'S START
WITH THIS: I'M ALWAYS CURIOUS
AS TO WHY FILM MAKERS WANT TO
SPEND TIME WITH PEOPLE WHO DON'T
LOVE THEM AND CLEARLY YOU SPENT
SOME TIME WITH A LOT OF PEOPLE
IN THIS MOVIE WHO DON'T LOVE YOU
OR WHAT YOU REPRESENT.
SO WHY DO IT?

The caption changes to "Deeyah Khan. Filmmaker, 'White right: Meeting the enemy.'"
Then, it changes again to "Am I your enemy?"

Deeyah says YOU KNOW, WHY DO IT
IS BECAUSE I'M ALWAYS INTERESTED
IN WHY PEOPLE DO THE THINGS THAT
THEY DO.
WHY PEOPLE HOLD THE BELIEFS THAT
THEY HOLD.
AND MY DESIRE TO UNDERSTAND IT
IS NOT TO NORMALIZE IT OR TO
EXCUSE IT.
BUT IT IS SO THAT THE REST OF US
CAN BECOME BETTER ADD MORE
EFFECTIVE IN COUNTERING IT.
AND THE RYAN I ACTUALLY ENDED UP
MAKING THE FILM IN THE FIRST
PLACE IS BECAUSE I DID A TV
INTERVIEW WITH THE BBC WHERE TO
MY MIND I HAD SAID VERY BLAND
STATEMENTS IN SUPPORT OF
MULTICULTURALISM AND ABOUT OUR
DIVERSE SOCIETY AND THE FACT
THAT PEOPLE LIKE MY FAMILY AND
OTHER PEOPLE OF COLOUR WHO COME
TO WESTERN COUNTRIES, THAT THEY
WILL HAVE TO ADJUST TO THE
COUNTRIES THAT WE NOW LIVE IN.
AND SIMILARLY, YOU KNOW, WHITE
PEOPLE WHO, WHO WERE USED TO
THEIR COUNTRIES PRE-IMMIGRATION,
FROM VARIOUS PARTS OF THE WORLD,
THAT THEY WILL ALSO HAVE TO GET
USED TO THE FACT THAT WE'RE ALL
HERE NOW TOGETHER.
AND WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO FIND
A WAY TO LIVE TOGETHER WHERE IT
MEANS THAT PEOPLE LIKE MYSELF
AND YOU BELONGING AND BEING A
PART OF OUR SOCIETIES.
SO THAT'S THE GIST OF WHAT I
SAID.
AND THE RESPONSE TO THOSE
COMMENTS... THAT INTERVIEW WENT
VIRAL.
ENDED UP ON VARIOUS VIOLENT
RACIST WEBSITES.
PARTICULARLY IN AMERICA.
I WAS INUNDATED WITH DEATH
THREATS AND VARIOUS DESCRIPTIONS
OF HOW I WAS GOING TO BE KILLED
AND HOW MY COMMENTS WERE
ESSENTIALLY COMMITTING WHITE
GENOCIDE IS WHAT THEY WERE
SAYING.
SO I DECIDED THAT I REFUSED
THEIR PREMISE.
AND ALSO THAT I DIDN'T REALLY
WANT TO BE AFRAID OF THIS.
I DIDN'T WANT TO GO AND HIDE IN
SOMEWHERE.
I WANTED TO ACTUALLY CONFRONT
THIS AND SEE IF IT WAS POSSIBLE
FOR ME TO SIT DOWN WITH PEOPLE
WHO HOLD FEELINGS LIKE THAT.
AND FOR US TO ONE-ON-ONE,
FACE-TO-FACE BE ABLE TO SEE IF
WE CAN RECOGNIZE EACH OTHER'S
HUMANITY.
AND IF IT'S POSSIBLE FOR US TO
GET PAST THE RHETORIC, PAST THE
CHEST BEATING, PAST THE NAME
CALLING AND TO THE HUMAN BEINGS
BEHIND THE HATRED.
SO THAT WAS MY DRIVE, REALLY WAS
TO TRY AND FIND THE HUMANS
BEHIND THIS.

Steve says WELL, GIVEN THAT
EXPLANATION, I UNDERSTAND WHY
YOU WANTED TO SIT DOWN WITH
THEM.
BUT GIVEN WHAT YOU REPRESENT TO
THEM, I MEAN I ASK MYSELF THE
WHOLE TIME I WAS WATCHING THIS
PICTURE: WHY ARE THEY SITTING
DOWN WITH HER?
HOW DID SHE GET ACCESS TO ALL OF
THESE PEOPLE?
WHY WOULD THEY WANT TO SPEAK TO
HER?
WHAT'S THE ANSWER TO THAT?

In a picture, three white, short-haired men in black uniforms and carrying guns, stand by a black van defiantly facing a camera on a tripod.
In another picture, Deeyah stands next to a shaven-headed white man dressed in black in an abandoned warehouse.

Deeyah says WELL, YOU KNOW,
STEVE, THE THING IS, THE VAST
MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE THAT I
REACHED OUT TO AND THE VARIOUS
GROUPS THAT I CONTACTED TO
ACTUALLY REFUSED TO SPEAK TO ME.
SO IN THAT SENSE, THE PEOPLE WHO
MADE IT IN THE FILM, YOU KNOW,
IT SORT OF IS SELF-SELECTING IN
THAT WAY.
EVEN THE PEOPLE WHO AGREED TO BE
IN THE FILM, IT TOOK ME A VERY,
VERY LONG TIME AND' LOT OF
PUSHING, A LOT OF CONVINCING TO
GET THEM TO AGREE TO SPEAK TO
ME.
AND THE FIRST PERSON WHO AGREED
WAS JEFF SCHOEP WHO IS THE
LEADER OF THE NATIONAL SOCIALIST
MOVEMENT IN AMERICA WHICH IS THE
LARGEST NEO-NAZI ORGANIZATION
THERE AND ONE OF THE OLDEST
ORGANIZATIONS THERE.

In another picture, a shaven-headed man in his forties sits on a couch dressed in black, wearing military boots.

Deeyah continues AND HIS CONDITION SORT OF WAS
THAT I COME TO HIM AND THAT I
COME TO A SPECIFIC MOTEL THAT HE
SUGGESTED.
AND THAT I WOULD ONLY GET ONE
HOUR.
AND AFTER THAT ONE HOUR I NEEDED
TO JUST BASICALLY DISAPPEAR.
SO I COME TO THIS MOTEL.
AND SUDDENLY DAWNS ON ME THAT I
AM ABOUT TO MEET A NEO-NAZI.
AND SUDDENLY ALL THE SORT OF
WHAT-IF THIS, WHAT IF THAT
STARTS RUNNING THROUGH YOUR
MIND.
WHAT IF HE IS ARMED OR BRINGS
PEOPLE AT HIM.
I DOES SHOW UP AT THE DOOR AND I
REMEMBER BEING TERRIFIED AND
REALLY REALLY NERVOUS.
BUT HE CAME.
WE TALKED FOR THE HOUR THAT HE
SAID.
IN FACT WE ENDED UP TALKING FOR
FIVE HOURS.
AND AT THE END OF THOSE FIVE
HOURS HE SAID, LOOK, YOU KNOW,
IN A FEW WEEKS WE'RE GOING TO
PARTICIPATE IN A RALLY THAT'S IN
A PLACE CALLED CHARLOTTESVILLE
WHICH I HADN'T REALLY HEARD
ABOUT AT THE TIME.
YOU ARE BASICALLY WELCOME TO
JOIN US.
AND HE SAID... I ASKED HIM AS
WELL, LOOK, WHY ARE YOU OKAY FOR
ME TO JOIN YOU NOW?
AND HE SAID, LOOK, I COMPLETELY
DISAGREE WITH YOU.
I DON'T PARTICULARLY LIKE THE
THINGS THAT YOU STAND FOR AND
YOUR VISION OF THE WORLD IS
SOMETHING THAT I DISLIKE AND I
DESPISE AND I WILL ACTIVELY WORK
AGAINST.
BUT HE SAID I HAVE NEVER REALLY
BEEN ASKED THE TYPE OF QUESTIONS
THAT YOU ASKED ME.
I'VE DONE A LOT OF INTERVIEWS
BUT I HAVE NEVER REALLY ENGAGED
WITH SOMEONE IN THE WAY THAT
WILL YOU HAVEN'T ENGAGED WITH
ME.
HE SAID I ALSO SEE THAT YOU'RE
VERY SINCERE IN YOUR DESIRE TO
UNDERSTAND.
AND YOU'RE ALSO VERY SINCERE
ABOUT THE WORLD VIEW THAT YOU
HOLD WHICH IS THAT IT SHOULD BE
DIVERSE, IT SHOULD INCLUDE ALL
OF US.
AND HE SAID: AS MUCH AS I
DESPISE THAT, I RESPECT YOUR
PASSION AND YOUR COMMITMENT TO
IT.
SO YOU'RE WELCOME TO JOIN US.
AND I WAS QUITE SURPRISED BY HIS
ANSWER.
BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, OUR
CONVERSATIONS WERE QUITE
UNPLEASANT.
AND AWKWARD.
MAYBE NOT AS UNPLEASANT BUT MORE
AWKWARD.
BUT, YOU KNOW, WHAT WAS
INTERESTING TO ME IS, YOU KNOW,
WITH HIM AND ALSO WITH SEVERAL
OF THE OTHER MEN THAT I SPOKE
TO, I ALWAYS WONDERED, IS IT
POSSIBLE FOR PEOPLE TO BE
HATEFUL UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL.
AND, OF COURSE, IT IS POSSIBLE
FOR SOME PEOPLE.
AND WITH DEVASTATING
CONSEQUENCES.
BUT FOR THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE
ONES THAT I MET WITH ANY WAY,
THEY WERE UNABLE TO BE HATEFUL
TO MY FACE.
YOU KNOW, WHEN I WOULD USE
DEROGATORY LANGUAGE ABOUT MYSELF
THAT WAS INCLUDED IN THE PRESS
THAT I HAD RECEIVED AND LANGUAGE
THAT THESE GUYS USE THEMSELVES,
IT'S NOTHING THEY HADN'T HEARD
BEFORE WHEN I WOULD CALL MYSELF
SOME OF THOSE NAMES IN FRONT OF
THEM, AND READ THOSE THREATS TO
THEM, THEY WOULD GET REALLY
UNCOMFORTABLE.
AND I FIND THAT REALLY
INTERESTING AND REALLY TELLING.

Steve says DEEYAH I'M GOING TO GO
EVEN FURTHER THAN THAT.
BECAUSE I AM GOING TO SAY DURING
THE COURSE OF WATCHING THE MOVIE
THEY DIDN'T JUST TOLERATE YOU
THEY CAME TO LIKE YOU.
IN FACT I THINK SOME OF THEM
CAME TO HAVE A BIT OF A CRUSH ON
YOU.
AND I THINK YOU CHANGED SOME
MINDS DURING THE COURSE OF THIS
MOVIE.
DID YOU FEEL THAT?

The picture in the film poster appears in full. The portrayed neo-Nazi sits in an underground parking lot.

Deeyah says YOU KNOW, I DID FEEL THAT.
SO AFTER.
IT WAS REALLY VERY, VERY
SURPRISING TO ME THAT SOME OF
THE MEN THAT I SPOKE TO, YOU
KNOW, ONE OF THE YOUNGER MEN HIS
NAME IS KEN PARKER.
SO ALSO A NEO-NAZI.
HE USED TO BEFORE BECOMING A
NEO-NAZI HE WAS ALSO A MEMBER OF
THE KLU KLUX KLAN AND HAS BEEN
ACTIVE IN THE WHITE SUPREMACIST
MOVEMENT FOR MANY YEARS.
IN THE TIME I SPENT FILMING WITH
HIM HE TOLD ME THE KINDS OF
HARASSMENT THAT HE HAS INFLICTED
UPON THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY IN HIS
LOCAL AREA.
HOW HE HATES JEWISH PEOPLE.
AND SOME OF THE FILMING THAT I
DID WITH HIM HE WAS FLYERING A
JEWISH NEIGHBOURHOOD ON YOM
KIPPUR THROWING AROUND REALLY
HATEFUL LEAFLETS.
BUT THE MORE TIME THAT I SPENT
WITH HIM TOWARDS THE END OF THE
LAST DAY, HE SORT OF LOOKS AT ME
AND HE SAYS THAT HE CONSIDERS ME
TO BE HIS FRIEND.
AND THAT'S THE MOST SHOCKING
THING I'VE HEARD IN THIS WHOLE FILM.

Steve says I DID WANT TO ASK YOU THAT.
I DID WANT TO ASK YOU HOW YOU
FELT WHEN THESE NEO-NAZIS
DESCRIBED... AND IT WAS MORE
THAN JUST THAT GUY THERE WERE
OTHERS, TOO, WHO CALLED YOU
THEIR FRIEND.

The caption changes to "Deeyah Khan, @Deeyah_Khan."

Deeyah says I GET GOOSE BUMPS
THINKING ABOUT THIS EVEN NOW.
I KNEW THAT WE WERE GOING TO BE
ON OPPOSITE ENDS OF THE
SPECTRUM.
I KNEW THAT WE WERE GOING TO
DISAGREE ABOUT EVERYTHING AND I
KNEW THAT I WAS GOING TO HAVE TO
HEAR REALLY UNCOMFORTABLE THINGS
ABOUT MYSELF AND PEOPLE LIKE ME.
BUT THE LAST THING I EXPECTED
WAS TO BE CALLED A FRIEND BY
SOMEBODY LIKE THAT.
IT WAS ABSOLUTELY... I MEAN, I
WAS AT A LOSS FOR WORDS WHEN HE
SAID IT.
AND THE THING IS, THIS HAPPENED
A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO AFTER I
FINISHED THE FILM.
HE CALLED ME UP.
THE SAME YOUNG MAN WHO HAS A
MASSIVE SWASTIKA TATTOOED ON HIS
CHEST.
AND HE SAID DEEYAH, I HAVE LEFT
THE WHITE SUPREMACIST MOVEMENT.
AND I WAS SO SHOCKED TO HEAR
THIS.
BECAUSE HE WAS SO UTTERLY
COMMITTED TO THE CAUSE.
AND I ASKED HIM WHY IS THAT?
AND HE SAID WELL, YOU WERE
RESPECTFUL TO ME AND YOU DIDN'T
GIVE UP ON ME.
BUT ALSO HE PROMISED ME THAT HE
WOULD START ENGAGING WITH OTHER
PEOPLE WHO ARE ALSO DIFFERENT
FROM HIM.
AND HE ACTUALLY HONOURED THAT.
AND HAD STARTED SPEAKING TO AN
AFRICAN AMERICAN MAN WITHIN HIS
APARTMENT COMPLEX WHO THEN ALSO
TOOK HIM TO HIS CONGREGATION.
HE IS A PASTOR.
HE TOOK HIM TO HIS CONGREGATION
WHICH IS ALL BLACK.
AND THEY WERE LOVING TOWARDS
HIM.
AND COMPASSIONATE AND FORGIVING
TOWARDS KEN EVEN THOUGH HE TOLD
THEM WHO HE IS, WHAT HIS VIEWS
ARE, WHAT HIS BACKGROUND IS.
AND THAT WAS THE FINAL STRAW FOR
HIM AND PUSHED HIM COMPLETELY
OVER THE EDGE.
AND NOW THE MOVEMENT THAT HE
LEFT, YOU KNOW, HIS FORMER
FRIENDS BASICALLY ARE ALL
SHUNNING HIM, HATE HIM,
THREATENING HIM.
SO EVEN I'M NOW FINDING MYSELF
IN A PLACE WHERE I'M TRYING TO
HONOUR THE WORD THAT HE USED FOR
ME WHICH IS A FRIEND R SO NOW HE
IS SO ISOLATED.
IT'S SO DIFFICULT FOR MEN LIKE
THIS TO LEAVE EXTREMIST GROUPS.
BECAUSE IT ENDS UP BECOMING
THEIR ENTIRE FAMILY, THEIR
SOCIAL NETWORK, THEIR COMMUNITY.
AND WHICH IS WHY A LOT OF MEN
FIND IT DIFFICULT TO LEAVE
GROUPS LIKE THIS.
I HAVE ALSO INTRODUCED HIM TO
SOME OF THE MEN IN THE FILM WHO
ARE FORMER NEO-NAZIS AS WELL
JUST TO ENSURE THAT HE HAS A
LITTLE BIT OF SUPPORT AND A
LITTLE BIT OF UNDERSTANDING AS
HE REBUILDS HIS LIFE NOW WITH
THE REST OF US.
BUT, YOU KNOW, IT'S... IF YOU
WOULD HAVE TOLD ME A YEAR AGO
THAT I WOULD BE CALLING A
NEO-NAZI... WELL, NOW A FORMER
NEO-NAZI... MY FRIEND, I WOULD
HAVE LAUGHED AT YOU.
I THINK I WOULD HAVE FELT...

Steve says YOU ARE USING THAT WORD.

Deeyah says I AM USING THAT WORD.
FOR HIM I AM USING THAT WORD.
ANOTHER MAN ALSO WHO WAS A PART
OF THE MOVEMENT FOR OVER A
DECADE ENDED UP LEAVING AS I WAS
EDITING THE FILM.
HIS STORY IS ACTUALLY INCLUDED
IN THE FILM.
HAVING SAID THAT I DON'T WANT TO
UNDERESTIMATE AND UNDERSTATE HOW
DANGEROUS THIS MOVEMENT IS.
I ALSO SPENT TIME WITH... IN
VARIOUS TRAINING CAMPS, IN
VARIOUS COMPOUNDS AROUND AMERICA
WHERE I ACTUALLY WAS NOT ALLOWED
TO FILM.
WHERE I WAS TOLD THAT A BULLET
WAS GOING TO BE PUT THROUGH MY
HEAD.
A BULLET WAS GOING TO BE PUT
THROUGH MY CAMERA AND LOTS OF
LANGUAGE THAT I CANNOT SAY ON
AIR.
WAS USED ABOUT ME.
AND, YOU KNOW, HAD SEVERAL VERY,
VERY UNCOMFORTABLE ENCOUNTERS
WHERE ONE OF THEM I ACTUALLY
THOUGHT I REALLY WAS NOT GOING
TO MAKE IT OUT ALIVE.

Steve says AND LET'S JUST
CONFIRM, DEEYAH, THAT YOU DIDN'T
SHOW UP AT THESE INTERVIEWS WITH
ARMED SECURITY, RIGHT?

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Deeyah says NO, IT WAS JUST
MYSELF AND MY COLLEAGUE AND MY
CAMERA.
AND THAT WAS IT.
AND, OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, I...
SEVERAL TIMES, REALIZED THAT
WHAT I'M DOING IS A LITTLE BIT
CRAZY.
AND, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE
ENCOUNTERS THAT I DID HAVE AT A
COMPOUND WHERE THEY WERE WAVING
GUNS AT ME, THEY WERE SHOUTING
AT ME.
THEY WERE CALLING ME ALL KINDS
OF THINGS.
AND EVEN TELLING ME WHAT COULD
HAPPEN TO ME AND ALSO REMEMBER
LOOKING AT MY MOBILE FIONA
HUNTER SEEING THAT THERE IS NO
SIGNAL.
AND REMEMBER THINKING: IF THEY
WANTED TO THEY COULD JUST PUT A
BULLET IN MY HEAD AND PUT ME IN
THE GROUND RIGHT NOW.
NOBODY WOULD KNOW WHERE I WAS.
NOBODY WOULD FIND OUT.
BECAUSE ALSO I HADN'T TOLD
ANYONE AT THAT POINT THAT I WAS
MAKING THE FILM AND THAT I WAS
IN SOME OF THESE AREAS.
AND THE FIRST THING I DID WHEN I
GOT BACK HOME TO THE HOTEL IS
THAT I CONTACTED MY COLLEAGUE.
EVEN MY COLLEAGUES THAT I HADN'T
TOLD BACK IN LONDON AND I TOLD
HER I SAID LOOK, THIS IS THE
NUMBER OF MY MOTHER AND MY
BROTHER.
IF YOU DON'T HEAR FROM ME EVERY
TWO DAYS YOU NEED TO INFORM THEM
THAT SOMETHING HAS HAPPENED TO
ME.
SO IT WAS A VERY, VERY
DIFFICULT, VERY HARD FILM FOR ME
TO MAKE.
BUT ALSO A REALLY IMPORTANT ONE.
ON A PERSONAL LEVEL.
BECAUSE I STARTED OUT MAKING
THIS FILM FEELING VERY
PESSIMISTIC ABOUT THIS MOVEMENT
AND ABOUT WHERE WE'RE HEADED IN
OUR SOCIETY IN GENERAL.
AND ALSO VERY AFRAID OF THESE
PEOPLE.
AND AT THE END OF IT, I DO FEEL
LIBERATED FROM MY OWN FEAR.
BUT, AGAIN, I'M UNDER NO
ILLUSION THAT THIS IS NOT A
DANGEROUS MOVEMENT.
IT VERY MUCH IS.
AND IT HAS HAD DEADLY
CONSEQUENCES.
EVEN IN CHARLOTTESVILLE WHERE I
WAS A YOUNG WOMAN LOST HER LIFE
HEATHER HEYER.
BUT I THINK WHAT LIVE' LEARNED
FROM THE FILM IS HOW WE ENGAGE
WITH THESE PEOPLE I THINK IS
QUITE IMPORTANT.
I UNDERSTAND THE DESIRE TO
CONDEMN THEM.
AND TO SORT OF SHOUT THEM DOWN.
AND THROW THINGS AT THEM.
AND BAN THEM.
AND ALL OF THIS.
BUT AT THE SAME TIME, I THINK AS
SATISFYING AS THAT IS AND AS
SELF-RIGHTEOUS AS WE CAN FEEL
ABOUT US HAVING ALL THE RIGHT
OPINIONS AND THEM HAVING ALL THE
WRONG ONES, I THINK I'M
ABSOLUTELY SURE ON MY END THAT
WHAT DRIVES A LOT OF THESE MEN
IS IDEOLOGY SORT OF SECOND AND
MORE PRIMARY WHAT MAKES THEM
SUSCEPTIBLE TO THESE TYPES OF
MOVEMENTS IS PSYCHOLOGICAL,
SOCIAL, EMOTIONAL,
VULNERABILITIES THAT THEY HAVE.
WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT WE AS A
SOCIETY CAN ACTUALLY DO A LOT
MORE ABOUT.

Steve says LET ME EXPLORE THAT
FOR A SECOND WITH YOU.
BECAUSE WE UNDERSTAND THAT THE
FELLOW WITH THE SWASTIKA
TATTOOED ON HIS CHEST IS ONE
KIND OF NEO-NAZI SKIN HEAD THAT
EVERYBODY GETS.
BUT YOU ALSO PROFILE IN THIS
DOCUMENTARY A GUY NAMED RICHARD
SPENCER WHO DOESN'T LOOK
ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
THIS IS OBVIOUSLY AN ELITE,
AVERAGE LOOKING GUY WHO DRESSES
IN NICE CLOTHING AND TAKING A
LOOK AT HIM RIGHT NOW.
AND HE IS, I GUESS, A DANGER OF
A DIFFERENT KIND FROM A WELL
EDUCATED, WELL OFF, ELITE FAMILY.
WHAT EXPLAINS PEOPLE LIKE
RICHARD SPENCER BECOMING HATEFUL RACISTS?

In a picture, the young Richard Spencer raises his right arm Nazi-style at a rally.

The caption changes to "What national socialism looks like today."

Deeyah says I THINK THE
MOTIVATIONS, AS YOU SAY, I THINK
THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE TO ME IN
THE AIR VARIOUS GROUPS THAT I
INTERVIEWED AND MET WITH, YOU
HAVE THE WORKING CLASS GUYS AND
THE BOOTS ON THE UNDER GROW, THE
NEO-NAZIS WHO ARE IN STREET
FIGHTS AND THINGS LIKE THAT AND
ENGAGE IN VIOLENCE.
THEN YOU DO HAVE WHAT CRY CALL
THE SUIT AND TIE BRIGADE WHO DO
COME FROM EDUCATED, ELITE,
FINANCIALLY WELL OFF
BACKGROUNDS.
MEN LIKE JARED TAYLOR WHO YOU
SAW EARLIER AND ALSO RICHARD
SPENCER.
I THINK THEIR MOTIVATIONS ARE
MUCH MORE SINISTER.
I THINK... I FOUND THEM TO BE
ACTUALLY MORE HATEFUL THAN THE
NEO-NAZIS, THE NEO-NAZIS.
I COULD ACTUALLY RELATE TO SOME
OF THEIR GRIEVANCES.

The caption changes to "White Right: Meeting the enemy, coming up next."

Deeyah continues I DISLIKE AND DISAGREE WITH
THEIR OPINIONS AND HOW THEY'RE
CHOOSING TO SORT OF EXPRESS
THEIR GRIEVANCES.
BUT WITH THE SUIT AND TIE GUYS I
FIND THEM TO BE FAR MORE
DANGEROUS BECAUSE THEY ALSO HAVE
ACCESS TO POWER.
AND WHAT THEY'RE AFTER IS POWER.
THEY ARE NOT JUST TRYING TO
REGAIN THEIR SENSE OF DIGNITY
AND SENSE OF MAN HOOD.
THEY ARE ALSO GUNNING FOR POWER.
AND THEY ALSO... VERY MANY OF
THEM... HAVE ACCESS TO THAT
POWER AND HAVE THE EAR OF PEOPLE
WITHIN THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT.
SO I THINK MEN LIKE THAT ARE FAR
MORE DANGEROUS, FAR MORE
SINISTER AND FAR MORE STRATEGIC
IN SORT OF DEPLOYING THEIR HATE.
AND WHAT I ALSO WOULD SAY IS
THAT WHAT I FIND VERY CYNICAL
ABOUT THEM IS THAT THEY ARE VERY
MUCH PREYING ON THE
VULNERABILITIES OF YOUNG MEN,
FOR EXAMPLE, LIKE KEN AND OTHERS
THAT I MET IN THE MOVEMENT.
THEY ARE VERY MUCH PREYING ON
THE DISENFRANCHISED YOUNG WHITE
MEN WHO FEEL ALIENATED, WHO FEEL
ANGRY AND WHO ARE STRUGGLING
WITH KEEPING UP WITH THE WAY
THEIR SOCIETY IS CHANGING.
AND FINDING THAT THEY CAN'T
QUITE KEEP UP.
BUT WHAT I WOULD SAY THE
SIMILARITIES ARE, YOU KNOW,
DIFFERENCES OF CLASS AND
MOTIVATIONS THAT THE MEN HAVE.
BUT THE SIMILARITIES I WOULD SAT
MEANS, MANLINESS AND MASCULINITY
IS SOMETHING THAT I FOUND TO BE
A CONSISTENT THREAD THROUGHOUT
THE VARIOUS GROUPS.
WHERE MANLINESS IS ASSOCIATED TO
DOMINANCE AND TO VIOLENCE AND TO
A HIERARCHY OF OPPRESSION,
BASICALLY.
SO THAT I FIND REALLY
INTERESTING AS WELL.
AND ALSO, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE
FILMS THAT I HAVE DONE BEFORE
THIS AS YOU MENTIONED IS ALSO
ABOUT JIHADISTS.
AND WHAT STRUCK ME TO BE VERY,
VERY INTERESTING ABOUT THIS FILM
IS HOW THEY ARE TREMENDOUS
SIMILARITIES BETWEEN YOUNG
MUSLIM MEN WHO ARE DRAWN TO
VIOLENT EXTREMISM AND WHITE
ALIENATED MEN WHO ARE ALSO
SEEKING, YOU KNOW, VIOLENCE AND
KIND OF A GREAT LOST PAST, A
GOLDEN AGE THAT THEY'RE ALSO
HARPING BACK TO.
BUT THE TYPE OF GUY, THEIR
SOCIAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL MAKE UP
IS VERY SIMILAR.
AND WHAT THESE MOVEMENTS ARE
PROVIDING FOR THEM, THE NEEDS
THAT THEY SATISFY FOR THEM IS
ALSO VERY MUCH THE SAME AND ALSO
JUST AS CYNICAL.

Steve says RIGHT.
WE'VE GOT A COUPLE OF MINUTES
LEFT HERE.
AND I DO... WELL, I FEEL IT
INCUMBENT UPON ME TO BRING THE
AMERICAN PRESIDENT INTO THIS
SOME HOW.
BECAUSE I AM WONDERING WHETHER
YOUR SUBJECTS COMMENTED ON
WHETHER DONALD TRUMP'S ELECTION
AFFECTED THEIR MOVEMENT IN ANY WAY.

The caption changes to "An intractable movement?"

Deeyah says ABSOLUTELY.
THEY WERE CRYSTAL CLEAR FROM THE
SUIT AND TIE GUYS TO THE
NEO-NAZIS.
THEY WERE ABSOLUTELY CRYSTAL
CLEAR THAT THE ELECTION OF
DONALD TRUMP HAS HELPED THEIR
CAUSE AND THAT THERE IS ABSOLUTE
SYNERGY THERE.
ONE OF THE MEN SAID IT CRYSTAL
CLEAR.
HE SAID: OUR TALKING POINTS ARE
NOW IN THE WHITE HOUSE.
OUR TALKING POINTS USED TO BE ON
THE FRINGES.
BUT NOW THEY'RE ACTUALLY IN THE
WHITE HOUSE.
SO THEY'RE ALL SEEING THE
ELECTION OF DONALD TRUMP AS A
VICTORY FOR THEM.
OF COURSE, THEY DON'T FEEL THAT
HE IS GOING QUITE FAR ENOUGH.
BUT, YOU KNOW, BUILD A WALL, BAN
MUSLIMS OR BAN PEOPLE FROM
CERTAIN COUNTRIES.
EVEN THE ATTEMPTS OF TRYING TO
SEE IF THEY CAN STRIP EXISTING
CITIZENS FROM THEIR PASSPORTS.
ALL OF THESE ARE INCREDIBLY
WELCOME MEASURES THROUGHOUT THE
SPECTRUM OF THE WHITE
SUPREMACIST MOVEMENT IN AMERICA.
AND ALSO, WE CANNOT IGNORE
DONALD TRUMP'S RESPONSE AFTER
CHARLOTTESVILLE.

Steve says GOOD PEOPLE ON BOTH
SIDES, DEEYAH THAT'S WHAT WE HEAR.

Deeyah says I WAS THERE AND I TELL
YOU THERE WERE NOT GOOD PEOPLE
ON BOTH SIDES.

Steve says SINCE IT IS NOT OUR
DESIRE TO CHANGE EVERY THE MINDS
OF EVERY SINGLE NEO-NAZI WE
PROBABLY NEED SOME OTHER
ALTERNATE APPROACH.
DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEAS ON THAT?

Deeyah says I THINK THE ALTERNATE
APPROACH IS WE NEED ALL HANDS ON
DECK NOW.
I THINK THE POLITICS OF
RESENTMENT, FEAR AND DIVISION IS
SPREADING ABSOLUTELY AND
DEFINITELY ACROSS EUROPE AND IN
SO MANY OTHER WESTERN COUNTRIES.
I THINK THE REST OF US HAVE TO
RESIST IT.
I THINK WE HAVE TO ABSOLUTELY
ALSO ENGAGE WITH PEOPLE WHO WE
DISAGREE WITH.
I REALIZE THAT I AM JUST ONE
PERSON.
BUT, YOU KNOW, WE ALL CAN PLAY A
PART IN THIS.
AND WHAT WE MUST NOT DO IS ALLOW
FOR THE FAR RIGHT TO OCCUPY THE
CONVERSATIONS ABOUT ALSO THE
CHALLENGES OF LIVING TOGETHER.
YOU KNOW, DIVERSITY AND
MULTICULTURALISM IS A BEAUTIFUL
THING.
BUT THERE ARE ALSO CLEAR
CHALLENGES WITHIN THAT.
AND THE REST OF US HAVE TO BE
OPEN AND HONEST ABOUT IT AND BE
WILLING TO CONFRONT IT AND NOT
JUST SORT OF SWEEP IT UNDER THE
RUG.
BECAUSE IF WE DO THAT, THE ONLY
PEOPLE THAT WE'RE LEAVING IN THE
FIELD TO SPEAK ABOUT ALL OF THIS
IS THE FAR RIGHT.
AND I THINK SPEAKING ABOUT
DONALD TRUMP, WHAT'S SO POWERFUL
ABOUT HIM, IS THAT HE
ACKNOWLEDGING THE PAIN AND
SUFFERING THAT THE UNDER CLASSES
AND WORKING CLASSES OF AMERICA
AND THE POOR OF AMERICA ARE
STRUGGLING WITH AND ARE
SUFFERING.
AND HIM SAYING, YOU KNOW, YOU
WERE FORGOTTEN BUT YOU ARE
FORGOTTEN NO MORE IS INCREDIBLY
POWERFUL.
WE NEED TO ENGAGE WITH PEOPLE
LIKE THAT.
AND I KNOW SOME PEOPLE WILL SAY
WHY IS IT THE BURDEN OF THE REST
OF US.
ESPECIALLY US PEOPLE FROM
MINORITIES, EVEN.
WHY SHOULD WE HAVE TO HAVE ANY
RESPONSIBILITY FOR REFORMING
PEOPLE WHO HATE US?
I DON'T THINK IT'S OUR
RESPONSIBILITY.
I THINK IT'S ALL OF SOCIETY'S
RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE SURE THAT
WE TRY AND ENSURE THAT PEOPLE
DON'T FALL AWAY.
AND FALL OFF... AND BECOME
FORGOTTEN AND FEEL AS IF THEY'RE
BEING LEFT BEHIND.

A slate appears that reads "Next on TVO, North American Broadcast Premiere. White Right: Meeting the enemy. Also streaming at tvo.org/documentaries."

The caption changes to "Producer: Sandra Gionas, @sandragionas."

Steve says WELL, WE'RE VERY HAPPY
TO REMIND PEOPLE TO KEEP IT
RIGHT HERE ON TVO.
BECAUSE THE NORTH AMERICAN
BROADCAST PREMIERE OF YOUR
PICTURE "WHITE RIGHT: MEETING
THE ENEMY" IS TONIGHT RIGHT
AFTER THIS PROGRAM.
WE SHOULD ALSO TELL YOU YOU CAN
STREAM IT ON OUR WEBSITE THAT'S
tvo.org/DOCUMENTARIES.
I CAN'T THANK YOU, DEEYAH,
ENOUGH FOR COMING ON TVO TONIGHT
AND SHARING YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT
THIS.
IT IS A FANTASTIC PICTURE.
AND WE HEARTILY RECOMMEND IT TO
EVERYBODY. THANK YOU SO MUCH.

Deeyah says THANK YOU SO MUCH.

Watch: The Rise of Hate