Transcript: Whither the Liberals? | Jun 14, 2018

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, blue shirt, and spotted blue tie.

A caption on screen reads "Whither the Liberals? @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says WE TAKE NO PARTICULAR
JOY IN REPORTING THIS, BUT FACTS
ARE FACTS.
THE ONTARIO LIBERALS SUSTAINED
THE WORST ELECTORAL DEFEAT IN
THEIR 151-YEAR HISTORY A WEEK
AGO TONIGHT: JUST SEVEN MPPs IN
A 124-SEAT PROVINCIAL PARLIAMENT
IS ALL THE GRITS COULD MUSTER,
AFTER WINNING FOUR STRAIGHT
ELECTIONS.
WHAT DOES THIS ONCE PROUD PARTY
DO NOW TO BECOME RELEVANT, OR IS
THIS A MORE EXISTENTIAL CRISIS?
LET'S ASK TWO CANDIDATES WHO
FELT THE STING OF DEFEAT LAST
WEEK:
FORMER ST. CATHARINES MPP JIM
BRADLEY...

Jim is in his sixties, clean-shaven, with short gray hair. He's wearing glasses, a gray suit, pale blue shirt, and striped gray and blue tie.

Steve continues AND FORMER BURLINGTON MPP
ELEANOR McMAHON.

Eleanor is in her fifties, with short blond hair. She's wearing glasses, a gray blazer, and a white blouse.

Steve continues THEY'RE JOINED BY UNIVERSITY OF
TORONTO POLITICAL SCIENTIST
SYLVIA BASHEVKIN...

Sylvia is in her late forties, with shoulder-length auburn hair. She's wearing glasses, a floral blue blazer and a gray shirt.

Steve continues AND THE GLOBE AND MAIL'S
FEATURES COLUMNIST ADAM RADWANSKI.

Adam is in his late thirties, with short gray hair and a stubble. He's wearing a gray suit and blue shirt.

Steve continues GOOD TO HAVE EVERYBODY AROUND
OUR TABLE TONIGHT.
I DO WANT TO START WITH THE TWO
MPPs.
I MAY SPEND A LITTLE TIME OVER
HERE.
WE MAY DO A LITTLE THERAPY HERE,
FOLKS, ON THIS SIDE OF THE
TABLE.
JIM BRADLEY, YOU HAD YOUR LAST
CAUCUS MEETING AS A LIBERAL MPP
YESTERDAY.
HOW DID THAT GO?

The caption changes to "Jim Bradley. Former Minister of the Environment."
Then, it changes again to "Dealing with disappointment."

Jim says IT WAS A SAD
DAY BECAUSE MANY OF US WOULD NOT
SEE EACH OTHER AGAIN PERHAPS IN
OUR LIFETIME, OR AT LEAST NOT
VERY OFTEN.
THERE WAS A FEELING THAT MANY
PEOPLE WHO HAD SERVED VERY WELL
WERE NOT SUCCESSFUL ON THAT
EVENING.
SO THERE WAS A GOOD DEAL OF
SADNESS, BUT THERE WAS
ACCEPTANCE AND IT WAS
INTERESTING THAT THERE WERE
COMMENTS ABOUT HOW DEMOCRACY
WORKS.
THAT WAS OVERALL SAYING THAT,
YOU KNOW, THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN
AND IN A DEMOCRACY, THE PEOPLE
ARE ALWAYS RIGHT.
THOSE OF US WHO ARE ELECTED
REPRESENTATIVES OR CANDIDATES
MUST RESPECT WHAT THE ELECTORATE
HAS DECIDED.
SO THERE WAS A SERENITY ABOUT
THAT AS WELL.
BUT A CONSIDERABLE SADNESS
BECAUSE OF OUR GOOD FRIENDS
LOSING THEIR SEATS AND NOT
SEEING ONE ANOTHER.

Steve says ELEANOR McMAHON,
YOU HAVE BEEN A CABINET MINISTER
FOR THE LAST TWO YEARS, SO YOU
WENT TO A CABINET MEETING
YESTERDAY AS WELL, THE LAST ONE.
HOW DID THAT GO?

The caption changes to "Eleanor McMahon. Former President of the Treasury Board."

Eleanor says SURREAL, I'D SAY.
YOU KNOW, THE PRIVILEGE OF BEING
IN THAT HALLOWED ROOM THAT JIM
KNOWS ONLY TOO WELL, IT'S A
REMARKABLE PRIVILEGE.
SO WHEN YOU REALIZE THAT YOU MAY
NEVER SEE THE INSIDE OF THAT
ROOM AGAIN, IT'S DAUNTING AND,
AGAIN, IT'S HUMBLING.
WE HAD A GOOD DISCUSSION, BOTH
IN CAUCUS AND IN CABINET, I
THOUGHT.
IT WAS CIVIL.
IT WAS THOUGHTFUL.
THERE WAS SOME REMINISCING.
THERE WAS A LITTLE BIT OF WHAT
MIGHT HAVE WE DONE DIFFERENTLY?
BUT THERE WAS ALSO A GOOD DEAL
OF DISCUSSION ABOUT WHAT'S NEXT
AND WHERE WE GO FROM HERE, AND A
REALIZATION THAT, AS JIM SAID,
THERE'S A SERENITY TO REALIZING
THAT THE VOTERS HAVE SPOKEN, AND
THERE'S A HUMBLING REALIZATION
THAT IT'S NOW OUR TURN AND OUR
OPPORTUNITY TO, AS OTHER PARTIES
HAVE DONE WHO HAVE EXPERIENCED
SIMILAR DEFEATS, SIT BACK AND
DISCERN EXACTLY WHAT THE VOTERS
WERE TELLING US, WHAT WE HEARD,
WHAT WE DID AND DIDN'T DO TO
ENSURE THAT WE WON AND TAKE THAT
AWAY AND REBUILD, AND THAT'S
WHAT WE NEED TO DO.

Steve says CAN YOU TELL US WHAT
ELECTION NIGHT WAS LIKE FOR YOU
KNOWING... I MEAN, YOU PRETTY
WELL KNEW YOU WERE GOING TO
LOSE, RIGHT?

Eleanor says YEAH.

Steve says WHAT'S THAT LIKE?

Eleanor says WELL, IT'S DISAPPOINTING.
IT'S DISAPPOINTING ON SEVERAL
LEVELS BECAUSE, IN MY PARTICULAR
INSTANCE, I WANTED TO CONTINUE
SERVING MY COMMUNITY.
BURLINGTON HAS A NUMBER OF
CONSIDERABLE CHALLENGES.
I THOUGHT THAT I HAD WORKED WELL
IN MY COMMUNITY, DELIVERED ON
BEHALF OF MY COMMUNITY,
WORKED... DONE ALL THE THINGS
THAT I, AS A PUBLIC SERVANT,
THINK ARE IMPORTANT.
WORKING WELL WITH CITY COUNCIL
AND THE MAYOR, WORKING WELL WITH
MY FEDERAL COUNTERPARTS.

Steve says AT THE END OF THE
DAY IT'S NOT ABOUT ALL OF THAT.

Eleanor says IT ISN'T ABOUT ANY OF THAT,
AS IT TURNED OUT.
PEOPLE SAID TO ME BOTH AT THE
DOOR AND THAT EVENING, ELEANOR,
THIS ISN'T ABOUT YOU.
THIS WASN'T ABOUT YOU.
YOU DID A GREAT JOB.
YOU DELIVERED WELL.
BUT THIS WASN'T ABOUT YOU.

Steve says BIGGER FORCES AT
PLAY HERE.

Eleanor says THERE'S A SENSE THAT THERE
WERE BIGGER FORCES AT PLAY, YEAH.

Steve says JIM BRADLEY, YOU
KNOW WHERE I'M GOING NEXT.
LOOK AT THE MONITOR IN THE
STUDIO, PLEASE.
CAN WE PLEASE BRING UP THIS
GRAPHIC.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "The All-time leaders."

Steve reads data from the slate and says
THE ALL-TIME MPP TIME SPENT IN
OFFICE AT QUEEN'S PARK IS HARRY
NIXON WHO SERVED FROM 1919 TO 1961.
THAT'S 42 YEARS AND TWO DAYS.
JIM BRADLEY IS IN SECOND PLACE.
FROM 1977, THE 9TH OF JUNE...
YOU JUST PASSED THE
ANNIVERSARY... UNTIL 2018 WHICH
GIVES HIS TENURE 40 YEARS...
MR. BRADLEY, YOU KNOW HAD YOU
WON THIS ELECTION AND SERVED 13
MORE MONTHS, YOU'D HAVE BEEN THE
LONGEST SERVING MEMBER EVER.
AND I WANT TO KNOW HOW
DISAPPOINTED YOU ARE THAT YOU'RE
NOT GOING TO BE NOW?

Jim says WELL, NO ONE
WILL EVER BELIEVE ME WHEN I SAY
IT.
I NEVER THOUGHT THAT WAS A GREAT
ACCOMPLISHMENT, AND I HONESTLY
DID NOT WANT TO GO AHEAD OF
MR. NIXON.
I WOULD HAVE BEEN HAPPY TO WIN
THE ELECTION.
BUT I TALKED TO BOB NIXON
EARLIER THIS WEEK...

Steve says HARRY'S SON.

Jim says YES.
AND I SAID, YOU KNOW WHAT ONE
GOOD THING ABOUT IT WAS, YOUR
FATHER REMAINS AS THE LONGEST
SERVING MEMBER AND DESERVEDLY SO
BECAUSE HE PLAYED A MUCH MORE
SIGNIFICANT ROLE IN ONTARIO
POLITICS THAN I WOULD HAVE
PLAYED.

Steve says THAT'S OVERLY MODEST
OF YOU TO SAY.

Jim says EVERYONE THOUGHT THAT.
EVEN AS I SAY IT TODAY, THEY'LL
SAY, WELL, HE'S JUST SAYING
THAT.
THAT WAS NOT A CONSIDERATION FOR
ME.
THE ONLY TIME I WOULD KNOW ABOUT
IT WAS WHEN THERE WAS A TWEET
COMING FROM A FELLOW BY THE NAME
OF STEVE PAIKIN.

Steve says I'M PERHAPS
GENETICALLY OVERINTERESTED IN
THIS KIND OF STUFF.
OKAY.
WE'LL TAKE YOU AT YOUR WORD.
YOU FOLKS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF
THE TABLE, LET'S GET INTO SOME
DISCUSSION NOW ABOUT HOW THE
LIBERAL PARTY GETS RELEVANT
AGAIN, BECAUSE CLEARLY THEY
AREN'T TODAY.
AND, SYLVIA, LET ME THROW THE
CONVENTIONAL WISDOM OUT THERE
AND LET'S ALL WEIGH IN ON THIS A
LITTLE BIT HERE.
THE CONVENTIONAL WISDOM IS
KATHLEEN WYNNE TOOK THE LIBERAL
PARTY OVER THE LAST 5 YEARS AND
WHATEVER, 16 DAYS, WAY TOO FAR
TO THE LEFT.
AWAY FROM THE ONTARIO LIBERAL
PARTY'S TRADITIONAL MIDDLE OF
THE ROAD GROUND WHICH IT HAS
OCCUPIED FOR MUCH OF THE LAST,
WELL, YOU COULD GO BACK AND EVEN
SAY 30 YEARS.
DOES THIS PARTY, TO BE RELEVANT
AGAIN, NEED TO MOVE BACK TO THE
MIDDLE?

The caption changes to "Sylvia Bashevkin. University of Toronto."
Then, it changes again to "Back to the centre?"

Sylvia says WELL, I THINK THERE CERTAINLY IS AN
INTERNAL PARTY DEBATE THAT WE'VE
HEARD ABOUT.
MOVING TO THE MIDDLE, YOU KNOW,
MIGHT BE HELPFUL.
BUT I THINK THE PARTY SHOULDN'T
LURCH TO THE RIGHT.
SO I WOULD SAY THAT IF I LOOK
VERY CLOSELY AT THE INTERVIEW
THAT PREMIER WYNNE GAVE TO THE
TORONTO STAR EDITORIAL BOARD IN
2013, SHE SAID SHE WOULD BE A
FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE
COLLABORATIVE LEADER.
WHICH LED THE VOTERS TO BELIEVE
SHE WAS MOVING MORE TO THE
CENTRE AND LEFT THAN PREMIER
DALTON McGUINTY HAD MOVED THE
PARTY.
PEOPLE WERE DISAPPOINTED THAT
EARLY IN HER TERM SHE REALLY WAS
NOT A SOCIAL JUSTICE PREMIER AND
THERE WAS A LOT OF DATA THAT
SUGGESTED SHE WASN'T THAT
COLLABORATIVE.
FOR EXAMPLE, THE HYDRO ONE
PRIVATIZATION OPPOSED BY MANY
MORE VOTERS THAN SUPPORTED IT.
SHE WAS SLOW TO ACT ON
ESCALATING HOUSING PRICES.
SHE WAS SLOW TO ACT ON THE PARTY
FUND-RAISING PRACTICES.
SHE DIDN'T ALLOW TORONTO TO
IMPOSE CONGESTION CHARGING.
TO THE EXTENT THAT THE PARTY
WENT LEFT MORE RECENTLY ON
THINGS LIKE PAY EQUITY AND CHILD
CARE, THAT'S ONLY IN THE LAST
FEW MONTHS.
I THINK THERE ARE PROBABLY A
FAIR NUMBER OF VOTERS WHO
THOUGHT, LOOK, IF YOU PROMISED
TO BE A SOCIAL JUSTICE PREMIER
AND SO MUCH OF WHAT YOU DO
BEFORE JANUARY OF 2018 IS
ACTUALLY MORE TO THE RIGHT THAN
IT IS TO THE LEFT, THEN WHERE
ARE YOU ON PROMISES?
AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE TENOR OF
THE LEGISLATURE, I LOOKED AT
EJECTIONS FROM THE LEGISLATURE
AND THE USE OF TIME ALLOCATION.
ACTUALLY DURING PREMIER WYNNE'S
TENURE, IF YOU CONTROL FOR TIME,
SHE WAS USING TIME ALLOCATION
MORE AND THERE WERE MORE
EJECTIONS.

Steve says TIME ALLOCATION IS
BASICALLY CLOSURE.

Sylvia says CLOSING OFF DEBATE.
THAT'S NOT COLLABORATIVE.
YOU CAN ARGUE THAT RELATIVE TO
PREMIER McGUINTY, IT WAS
ACTUALLY LESS COLLABORATIVE,
ACCORDING TO THOSE MEASURES.
I THINK THOSE ARE SOME OF THE
PROBLEMS.

Steve says LOTS TO CHEW OVER
THERE.
ADAM?

The caption changes to "Adam Radwanski. The Globe and Mail."

Adam says INTERESTING.
THERE IS A COMMON PERCEPTION
THEY WENT TOO FAR TO THE LEFT.
IF YOU TALK TO SOME OF THE FOLKS
WHO RAN THIS CAMPAIGN FOR THE
LIBERALS, AND I SUSPECT PREMIER
WYNNE HERSELF, ALTHOUGH I DON'T
KNOW THAT, A LOT OF THEM WOULD
SAY THEY ACTUALLY SHOULD HAVE
GONE LEFT SOONER OR STUCK LEFT
AFTER THE ELECTION.
THERE WAS HER MORE COMFORTABLE
GROUND, THAT SHE WAS BETTER AT
IT.
AND WHEN THEY WERE DOING THINGS
LIKE THE HYDRO ONE PRIVATIZATION
OR TALKING ABOUT DEFICITS, THAT
WAS NOT REALLY HER STRONG SUIT.
NOW, OF COURSE WE'LL NEVER KNOW
HOW THAT WOULD HAVE PLAYED OUT.
BUT THERE WILL BE PEOPLE
CERTAINLY ARGUING IN THEIR PARTY
THEY SHOULD STAY TO THE LEFT.
THERE WILL BE OTHERS SAYING THE
NDP IS THERE, THEY NOW HAVE MORE
SEATS THAN US.
WHY ARE WE GOING TO TRY TO
OCCUPY THE SAME GROUND AS THEM
AND PUSH TOWARDS THE CENTRE?
IS THERE MUCH OF A CENTRE IN
ONTARIO ANYMORE?
WE'VE SEEN IN ELECTIONS ALL OVER
THE PLACE, NOT JUST HERE, PRETTY
STRONG SHIFTS, A GROWING DEGREE
OF POLARIZATION, A DEGREE OF
KIND OF ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT
SENTIMENT, AND THE CENTRE TENDS
TO BE THE MOST ESTABLISHMENT OF
ANYTHING BY NATURE.
IS THERE A WAY TO KIND OF TAP
INTO THAT SOMEHOW WHILE STILL
BEING KIND OF IN THE CENTRE OF
THE SPECTRUM OR ARE THEY
ACTUALLY BETTER OFF TO STICK TO
THE LEFT?

Steve says ELEANOR, IF I HEARD
IT ONCE I HEARD IT A HUNDRED
TIMES DURING THE CAMPAIGN, WHY
DO WE NEED TWO SOCIALIST PARTIES
IN ONTARIO?
FOR WHATEVER REASON, A LOT OF
PEOPLE SAW THE LIBERALS AND NEW
DEMOCRATS OCCUPYING THE SAME
IDEOLOGICAL TERRITORY.
DID THE ONTARIO LIBERAL PARTY
STRAY TOO FAR FROM ITS
TRADITIONAL MIDDLE OF THE ROAD
SELF?

Eleanor says IN
ANSWERING THAT QUESTION I'M
GOING TO BUILD ON SOMETHING THAT
ADAM SAID BECAUSE I THINK HE'S
QUITE RIGHT.
AS WE LOOK AT THIS ELECTION AND
EVEN LEADING UP TO THE ELECTION
BECAUSE I THINK THERE'S A WHOLE
ARGUMENT ABOUT HOW MUCH
ELECTIONS MATTER, REALLY,
BECAUSE GOING INTO THIS
ELECTION, WE FACED A SIGNIFICANT
UPHILL BATTLE.
DID WE LOSE THE ELECTION?
OF COURSE WE DID.
DID WE GET A RESOUNDING KICK TO
THE CURB?
YES, WE DID.
WERE THERE STEPS IN PLACE BEFORE
THE ELECTION THAT WERE PART OF
OUR UNDOING?
YES, THERE WERE.
SO THERE ARE SOME COMPLEX
FACTORS AT PLAY HERE THAT IN 29
OR 30 DAYS PLAYED THEMSELVES OUT
IN SOME VERY INTERESTING WAYS.
YES, THERE WERE SOME PIECES TO
THAT THAT INTERVENED.
TO BUILD ON ADAM'S POINT ON
WHERE THE LEFT IS NOW... SORRY,
WHERE THE CENTRE IS NOW.
WHERE IS THE CENTRE?
WHERE IS THE IDEOLOGICAL CENTRE?

Steve says DOUG FORD IS CLOSER
TO IT THAN YOU GUYS ARE.
I THINK THAT'S WHAT I HEARD OVER
AND OVER ON THE CAMPAIGN.

Eleanor says I THINK THERE'S SOME TRUTH TO
THAT BUT BY WHOSE DEFINITION?
WHO IS DEFINING WHAT THAT MIDDLE
GROUND IS NOW?
IS AND I THINK AS LIBERALS WE
WERE FOCUSED ON A COUPLE OF
THINGS: NUMBER ONE, BUILDING A
JUST SOCIETY.
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
AND PUTTING THE INSTRUMENTS IN
PLACE FOR PEOPLE WHO, AS A
CONSEQUENCE OF THE LAST
RECESSION, STILL FELT AS THOUGH
THEY HAD BEEN LEFT BEHIND IN AN
ECONOMIC SHIFT THAT WAS GLOBAL
IN NATURE AND WE SAW THAT PLAY
ITSELF OUT IN ONTARIO WITH THE
LOSS OF SOME MANUFACTURING, ETC.
SO WHEN WE LOOKED AT THE FUTURE
FOR PEOPLE AND WANTING TO ENSURE
THAT IN THEIR DAILY LIVES THAT
THE GOVERNMENT WAS THERE TO LOOK
AFTER THEM, WE VERY MUCH
IDEOLOGICALLY PLACED OURSELVES
AS GOVERNMENT, AND THE PREMIER
SAID THIS OFTEN AND I AGREE,
EXIST TO PLAY A FORCE OF GOOD IN
PEOPLE'S LIVES.
IF YOU BELIEVE THAT, AS SHE DID
AND WE DID, AND WE POSITIONED
OURSELVES IN THE CONTEXT OF
BUILDING THAT BETTER SOCIETY,
YOU KNOW, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
IT MEANS THAT THE POLARIZATION
THAT ADAM SPOKE OF, WHICH IS
VERY MUCH IN PLAY AND GLOBAL IN
NATURE AND HAS TO DO WITH FORCES
BEYOND US LIKE POPULISM AND
PEOPLE'S POCKETBOOK
PREOCCUPATIONS THAT REALLY I
THINK PREDOMINATED THIS CAMPAIGN
MUCH MORE THAN WE MIGHT HAVE
REALIZED.
NOTWITHSTANDING THAT THE
CAMPAIGN... SORRY, THE ECONOMY
RIGHT NOW IS EXTRAORDINARILY
SOUND.
I THINK WE HAD A ROLE TO PLAY IN
CREATING THOSE CONDITIONS.
AND YET PEOPLE'S EVERYDAY
POCKETBOOK PREOCCUPATIONS
PREDOMINATED.
HOW MANY Ps CAN I PUT IN THAT
SENTENCE?

Steve says JIM BRADLEY, LET'S
GET YOUR TAKE ON THAT.

Jim says I THINK I
WOULD CERTAINLY CONCUR WITH WHAT
ELEANOR HAD TO SAY.
ONE OF THE THINGS I KEPT SAYING
TO CAUCUS OVER A PERIOD OF TIME
WAS THAT WE CAN'T FORGET THE
PEOPLE WHO ARE ATTRACTED TO
POPULIST CANDIDATES.
THEY HAVE THEIR STRUGGLES AS
WELL.
AND VERY OFTEN THEY WILL LOOK
AND SEE GOVERNMENTS OR THE
ELITES, THEY CONSIDER ALL OF US
SITTING AROUND THIS TABLE TO BE
THE ELITE OF SOCIETY, MAKING
DECISIONS THAT REALLY DON'T TAKE
INTO CONSIDERATION WHAT THEIR
NEEDS HAPPEN TO BE.
AND THIS ANTIELITIST FEELING
THAT'S OUT THERE IS PRETTY
PREVALENT.
WE SAW IT WORKING SOUTH OF THE
BORDER.
WE'VE SEEN MANY BOOKS WRITTEN
ABOUT IT NOW, MANY COLUMNS ABOUT
IT.
AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE ALL
HAVE TO CONSIDER.
HOW DO WE TAP INTO THE NEEDS OF
THOSE INDIVIDUALS?
I USED TO REFER, AND I HAVE ON
THIS PROGRAM, TO THE GOLDEN
PHEASANT TAVERN IN ST.
CATHARINES.

Steve says THE DEAR DEPARTED.

Jim says A MYTHICAL PLACE.
IT ACTUALLY DID EXIST.
IT DOESN'T TODAY.
BUT AS PEOPLE WHO DON'T
NECESSARILY FOLLOW POLITICS ON
AN EVERYDAY BASIS AND THEY MAY
NOT EVEN WATCH "THE AGENDA,"
BELIEVE IT OR NOT, BUT THERE ARE
PEOPLE THAT HAVE NEEDS OUT
THERE.
AND THEY LOOK AT THOSE OF US WHO
ARE THE UNION LEADERS, BUSINESS
LEADERS, POLITICIANS, PEOPLE IN
THE MEDIA AS BEING NOT IN TUNE
WITH WHAT THEIR NEEDS HAPPEN TO
BE.
AND I THINK PARTIES ARE GOING TO
HAVE TO ADDRESS THAT.
CENTRIST PARTIES WILL CERTAINLY
HAVE TO ADDRESS THAT.
AND I REALLY DON'T KNOW IF
THERE'S A FUTURE FOR CENTRIST
PARTIES.
IF WE LOOK AROUND THE WORLD
TODAY, THEY'RE NOT VERY
PREVALENT, WHETHER IT'S EUROPE
OR IT'S ASIA OR IT'S NORTH AND
SOUTH AMERICA.
PEOPLE ARE SHIFTING ONE WAY OR
ANOTHER.
THAT MAY COME BACK AT SOME
PERIOD OF TIME.
BUT IT'S NOT EASY TO IDENTIFY
TODAY.

Steve says THE INFERENCE I DRAW
FROM YOUR ANSWER IS THAT YOU DID
FEEL THAT YOUR PARTY DID VACATE
WHATEVER THE TRADITIONAL CENTRE
HAS BEEN, DID MOVE LEFT, AND I
WONDER HOW COMFORTABLE YOU WERE
WITH THAT IDEOLOGICAL SHIFT.

The caption changes to "Jim Bradley. Former Liberal MPP."

Jim says WELL, I WAS PERSONALLY
COMFORTABLE WITH THAT
IDEOLOGICAL SHIFT.
I CAN ASSURE YOU OF THAT.
BECAUSE ON MANY ISSUES OF SOCIAL
JUSTICE AND ISSUES WHICH AFFECT
THE EVERYDAY LIVES OF PEOPLE, I
THOUGHT THAT WE HAD A ROLE TO
PLAY, GOVERNMENT DOES HAVE A
ROLE TO PLAY IN THAT REGARD.
I KNOW THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO
THINK THAT GOVERNMENT IS EVIL,
YOU SHOULD CUT BACK ON
GOVERNMENT AND SO ON.
I'M NOT ONE OF THOSE.
I THINK THE GOVERNMENT HAS A
CENTRAL ROLE TO PLAY AND THAT
GOVERNMENT HAS TO MAKE
SIGNIFICANT INVESTMENTS THAT ARE
GOING TO BENEFIT THE PUBLIC.
SO I WAS NOT UNCOMFORTABLE WITH
THAT, BUT I KNOW THAT THERE WERE
OTHERS WHO WERE.
AND WE HAVE TO TAKE THAT INTO
CONSIDERATION.

Steve says CAN YOU READ THAT
THING?
WHAT WAS THAT DESCRIPTION THAT
KATHLEEN WYNNE SAID SHE WAS
GOING TO BE?

Sylvia reads and says
AS A LEADERSHIP CANDIDATE, KATHLEEN
WYNNE PROMISED TO BE THE SOCIAL
JUSTICE PREMIER WHO WOULD
DEMONSTRATE A COLLABORATIVE
FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE APPROACH TO
GOVERNING.

Steve says THAT'S THE SECOND
PART.
THAT'S WHAT I WANT TO HONE IN
ON.
BECAUSE HAVING PUT THE BOOKS
BACK INTO BALANCE... MAYBE NOT
ACCORDING TO THE AUDITOR
GENERAL, BUT ACCORDING TO THE
MINISTRY OF FINANCE... THE
PREMIER IN HER LAST BUDGET AND
THE LIBERALS IN THEIR LAST
BUDGET THEN SAID: OKAY, WE'VE
BALANCED THE BOOKS.
NOW WE'RE GOING TO GO BACK INTO
DEFICIT FOR THE NEXT SEVEN
YEARS.
DO YOU THINK THERE WAS A
DISCONNECT THERE BETWEEN HER
ORIGINAL PLEDGE AND THE WAY SHE
GOVERNED?

Sylvia says I DO THINK
THERE WAS A DISCONNECT AND I
THINK PARTICULARLY ON FISCAL
RESPONSIBILITY.
WE'RE LOOKING AT PEOPLE WHO ARE
TRYING TO BALANCE THEIR OWN
BOOKS AT HOME, AND WE KNOW THAT
THAT FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY WOULD
HAVE BEEN A VERY HELPFUL ASSET
FOR PREMIER WYNNE, AS WOULD NOT
PRIVATIZING HYDRO ONE.
AT LEAST A MINORITY WOULD HAVE
BEEN POSSIBLE.
WE KNOW THAT MUCH OF THE WHAT
UNDERPINS IS SOCIAL IN NATURE.
IT'S PEOPLE OUT THERE ON SEX
EDUCATION AND THE PEOPLE QUITE
FRANKLY WHO ARE UNCOMFORTABLE
WITH WOMEN IN POSITIONS OF
RESPONSIBILITY AND WITH SEXUAL
ORIENTATION MINORITIES AND
POSITIONS OF POLITICAL
RESPONSIBILITY.
SO I THINK HAD THE LIBERALS BEEN
MORE ABLE TO PURSUE AN ECONOMIC
RESPONSIBILITY PLATFORM, THEY
COULD HAVE VACATED THE SOCIAL
CONSERVATISM TO THE PROGRESSIVE
CONSERVATIVES AS THEY HAVE OFTEN
AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL TO THE
FEDERAL CONSERVATIVE PARTY, AND
THAT WOULD HAVE ALLOWED THEM I
THINK TO HOLD SOME OF THAT
MIDDLE GROUND.
BUT IT WAS VERY HARD TO MAKE
THAT CASE GIVEN THE AUDITOR
GENERAL'S COMMENTS.

Steve says ADAM, I WANT TO
FOLLOW UP WITH THIS: WE LEARNED
IN THE LAST FEDERAL ELECTION,
THIS IS ALREADY 2015, SO A WHILE
IN THE REAR-VIEW MIRROR, THAT
THE ONE THING THE LIBERALS GOT
RIGHT, WE KNOW THIS FROM
POLLING, IS DEFICITS DIDN'T
MATTER ALL THAT MUCH AT THAT
TIME.
JUSTIN TRUDEAU WAS PREPARED TO
RUN DEFICITS AND IT DIDN'T HURT
HIM.
IT MIGHT HAVE HELPED HIM,
ACTUALLY.
WOULD YOU SAY IN THIS CAMPAIGN,
HAVING BALANCED THE BOOKS, THE
LIBERALS MADE A MISTAKE BY
OFFERING TO RUN DEFICITS FOR THE
NEXT SEVEN YEARS?

Adam says I THINK
THEY LOOKED INCONSISTENT AND A
LITTLE DESPERATE.
SO I THINK THAT WAS A PROBLEM.
I DON'T KNOW THAT PEOPLE IN
GREAT NUMBERS VOTED AGAINST
DEFICITS.
IF THEY HAD, I MEAN, DOUG FORD
DID NOT RUN VERY CREDIBLY
AGAINST DEFICITS.

Steve says BUT AT LEAST HE PAID
LIP SERVICE TO BALANCING THE BOOKS.

Adam says HE DID.
IF WE LOOKED AT WHAT PEOPLE WERE
ACTUALLY ANNOYED ABOUT, THOUGH,
IT WAS MUCH MORE AROUND ENERGY.
THAT SEEMED TO HAVE BEEN THE
ISSUE, EVEN THOUGH THAT SEEMED
TO HAVE LEVELLED OFF A BIT WHEN
THE LIBERALS REDUCED PEOPLE'S
ENERGY BILLS AND THE TAX BASE,
SOMEHOW THE ELECTION SEEMED TO
TRIGGER IT AND REMIND PEOPLE HOW
ANNOYED THEY WERE ABOUT IT.
IT WAS A LEFT-RIGHT ISSUE, OTHER
THAN THE HYDRO ONE ISSUE, AND
NOT BEING IN TOUCH WITH PEOPLE,
WHICH I THINK JIM WAS ALLUDING
TO, THE SENSE OF TALKING DOWN...

Sylvia says HYDRO ONE SALARIES, I THINK
THAT CONTINUED TO HIT THE
LIBERALS THROUGHOUT THE
CAMPAIGN.

Steve says THE STICKS MILLION DOLLARS
DOLLAR MAN.
LET ME FOLLOW UP ON THAT WITH
YOU, ELEANOR.
THIS IS PROBABLY TWO OR THREE
YEARS OLD, THIS TWEET, BUT I
STILL REMEMBER IT TO THIS DAY.
I DON'T REMEMBER WHO TWEETED IT
OUT.
BUT THE GOVERNMENT OF ONTARIO
MADE AN ANNOUNCEMENT THAT YOU
ARE NOW ABLE TO RENEW YOUR OHIP
CARD, HEALTH INSURANCE PLAN,
WITHOUT INDICATING MALE OR
FEMALE AS A GENDER.
BECAUSE MANY PEOPLE
SELF-IDENTIFY MORE FLUIDLY AS IT
RELATE TO THEIR GENDER.
AND IT WAS ANNOUNCED AS KIND OF
A GREAT MOMENT OF SOCIAL JUSTICE
IN THE HISTORY OF THE PROVINCE.
AND I RECALL SOMEBODY TWEETING
IN SAYING: ISN'T THAT JUST
GREAT?
MEANWHILE, MY ELECTRICITY BILL
JUST WENT UP 200 percent LAST YEAR.
WAS THAT A DISCONNECT THAT YOUR
GOVERNMENT NEVER GOT ITS HEAD
AROUND?

The caption changes to "Eleanor McMahon. Former Liberal MPP."

Eleanor says I DON'T
KNOW IF IT'S A DISCONNECT.
I THINK THAT BOTH OF THOSE
THINGS ARE POSSIBLE AT ONCE.
IF I HEARD CORRECTLY IN THE
PREMIER'S TORONTO STAR EDITORIAL
BOARD INTERVIEW FROM HER
LEADERSHIP CAMPAIGN, BEING A
SOCIAL JUSTICE PREMIER IS PART
OF THAT.
IT'S NOT A SILVER BULLET ISSUE.
THIS IS THE LARGEST SUB-NATIONAL
IN THE COUNTRY AND IT'S A
COMPLICATED JOB AND IT'S NOT A
SILVER BULLET ISSUE ON JUST
ABOUT ANYTHING ON ANY GIVEN DAY.
IT'S NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.
YOU CAN BE A SOCIAL JUSTICE
PREMIER AT THE SAME TIME AS YOU
ARE AN ECONOMICALLY SOUND
PREMIER.
I WAS ALSO HASTEN TO ADD THAT
WHILE THERE ARE SOME CRITICISMS
ABOUT OUR FISCAL PROBITY, WE
WEREN'T THE ONLY PARTY WHO WERE
GOING TO RUN DEFICITS.

Steve says THE GREENS TOO.

Eleanor says I DIDN'T HEAR MUCH OF THAT AT
THE DOOR, TO BE HONEST WITH YOU.
I DID HEAR IT MORE THAN THE LAST
CAMPAIGN, SO THERE IS A GROWING
PREOCCUPATION WITH THAT, WHICH
TIES INTO SOMETHING I FOUND... I
WOULD BE INTERESTED IN JIM'S
THOUGHTS ON THIS... IS THAT
PEOPLE SEEM TO BE MOVING AWAY
FROM THIS NOTION AGAIN AS
GOVERNMENT A FORCE OF GOOD IN
PEOPLE'S LIVES AND THE SIZE OF
GOVERNMENT AND WHAT'S THAT GOING
TO COST THEM IN THE FUTURE?
I HEARD FROM MORE PEOPLE, OH,
YEAH, CHILD CARE, THAT'S GREAT.
BUT WHAT KIND OF DEBT AM I
LEAVING MY CHILDREN?
AND THAT FROM MIDDLE OF THE ROAD
PEOPLE, NOT SO-CALLED
CONSERVATIVE PEOPLE WHO STARTED
TO BE PREOCCUPIED ABOUT THAT AND
I THINK THAT'S REALLY
INTERESTING.
I THINK THAT SPEAKS TO THE
FABRIC OF OUR SOCIETY AND
PEOPLE'S PREOCCUPATIONS, AND
MAYBE SOMETHING THAT WE MISSED,
WE WERE SO BUSY CREATING THAT
SOCIAL JUSTICE FRAMEWORK,
PUTTING THE PIECES OF GOVERNMENT
IN PLACE TO HELP PEOPLE IN THEIR
DAILY LIVES AND HELP THEM MANAGE
THE ECONOMIC FORCES THAT WERE
OVERTAKING US GLOBALLY AND THE
PEOPLE THAT WERE LEFT BEHIND AND
THE FUTURE NATURE OF WORK, THAT
WE DIDN'T MAYBE PAY CLOSE ENOUGH
ATTENTION TO PEOPLE'S IMMEDIATE
NEEDS.

Steve says LET ME ASK JIM
BRADLEY ABOUT THAT.
THAT BALANCE BETWEEN WANTING TO,
YOU KNOW, ENCOURAGE SOCIAL
JUSTICE WHILE AT THE SAME TIME
BEING FISCALLY PRUDENT.
DID THE BALANCE GET MISSED
SOMEWHERE ALONG THE WAY?

Jim says IT MAY HAVE,
TO THIS EXTENT: THERE WERE A LOT
OF PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO FELT
THAT OUR GOVERNMENT WAS
PREOCCUPIED, IN FACT, WITH
SOCIAL JUSTICE ISSUES, AS THEY
WOULD REFER TO IN THE
HINTERLANDS, THE DOWNTOWN
TORONTO ISSUES, AND THEY WERE
NOT THINKING ABOUT WHAT OTHER
FOLKS OUT THERE WERE SAYING.
ELEANOR MADE REFERENCE TO THE
FACT THAT WHEN YOU'RE TALKING
ABOUT THESE KINDS OF ISSUES AND
PEOPLE ARE STRUGGLING TO PAY
THEIR BILLS, THEY'RE MORE
CONCERNED ABOUT THAT AND
WONDERING WHY THE GOVERNMENT
WOULD FOCUS ON THOSE KINDS OF
ISSUES, WHICH THE GOVERNMENT
JUSTIFIABLY DID AND THERE WERE A
LOT OF GOOD THINGS DONE, BUT
THAT WAS THE IMPRESSION THAT WAS
CREATED.
BUT TO THE OTHER THING YOU
MENTIONED, STEVE, THAT I THINK
WAS VERY SIGNIFICANT,
SYMBOLICALLY AND OTHERWISE, WAS
THE PARTIAL PRIVATIZATION OF
HYDRO ONE.
MOST PEOPLE IN THE PROVINCE FEEL
THAT HYDRO ONE, OR THESE KINDS
OF UTILITIES, SHOULD BE IN
PUBLIC HANDS.
NOW THAT WE'RE NO LONGER IN
GOVERNMENT, WE CAN TALK ABOUT
SOME OF THOSE DISCUSSIONS.
I ADAMANTLY OPPOSE THAT, FOR A
COUPLE OF REASONS.
ONE, MY FEELING, AS MOST OF THE
PUBLIC WOULD, THAT THAT SHOULD
BE IN PUBLIC HANDS.
BUT SECOND I KNEW THAT
POLITICALLY IT WOULD NOT BE
WELL-RECEIVED BY MOST OF THE
PEOPLE IN THE PROVINCE.

Steve says WHEN YOU MADE THAT
ARGUMENT IN CABINET AND CAUCUS,
I PRESUME, WHAT KIND OF PUSHBACK
DID YOU GET?

Jim says THERE WAS NOT A POSITIVE
RESPONSE.
PEOPLE LISTENED...

Adam says HOW DIPLOMATIC.

Jim says PEOPLE
LISTENED BUT THEY DIDN'T
NECESSARILY HEAR WHAT I WAS
SAYING ON THAT OCCASION.

Steve says DO YOU THINK... WAS
IT MORE THAN JUST YOU INSIDE
THAT CABINET THAT WERE SAYING
THAT?

Jim says IT COULD BE.
CERTAINLY THERE WERE MORE THAN A
FEW OF US WHO WERE CONCERNED
ABOUT... SOME WERE APPREHENSIVE.
SOME WERE ADAMANTLY OPPOSED.
I THOUGHT THAT COULD BE A
TURNING POINT FOR OUR
GOVERNMENT.
A LOT OF LIBERALS WERE VERY
CONCERNED WHEN THAT ANNOUNCEMENT
WAS MADE BECAUSE YOU'LL
REMEMBER, MR. CLARK'S FIRST
ADVICE WAS NOT TO SELL ANY OF
HYDRO ONE.
THEN HE CAME BACK AND SAID WE
SHOULD.

Steve says THIS IS ED CLARK...

Jim says ED CLARK IN THIS PARTICULAR
CASE, THE GURU THAT WE LISTENED
TO AT THAT TIME.
AND GOVERNMENTS HAVE TO BE
CAREFUL AS WELL.
I DON'T WANT TO SOUND
ANTIELITIST NOW.
BUT GOVERNMENTS CAN BE CAUGHT UP
IN LISTENING TO GURUS, AND WHAT
HAPPENS IS, THE GENERAL
POPULATION AREN'T ON THE SAME
WAVELENGTH.
AND THE GENERAL POPULATION
SOMETIMES ARE RIGHT, AND THE
EXPERTS ARE NOT ALWAYS RIGHT.
IT MAY HAVE BEEN A DECISION THAT
CERTAINLY MADE SOME SENSE IN
TERMS OF GETTING MONEY FOR
GOVERNMENT.
BUT LET ME GO BACK TO ONE MORE
THING, STEVE, AT THE RISK OF
PROLONGING THIS, AND THAT IS, NO
ONE WANTS TO PAY MORE IN TAXES.
THAT BATTLE WAS LOST IN THE
1990s.
SO GOVERNMENTS ARE LOOKING FOR
WAYS TO GET MONEY WITHOUT
RAISING TAXES, WHETHER IT'S
DIFFERENT FEES THAT THEY WILL
CHARGE OR PRIVATIZATION TAKING
PLACE.
AND SOME DAY, WE'RE GOING TO
HAVE TO SIT DOWN AS A SOCIETY
AND SAY, IF WE WANT ALL OF THESE
SERVICES, WHICH WE BELIEVE WE
NEED, THEN WE'RE GOING TO HAVE
TO INCREASE TAXES TO DO SO.
BUT LET'S FIND A PARTY THAT WILL
EVER BE ELECTED SAYING THAT.

Steve says GOTCHA.
LET'S JUST SPEND A MINUTE HERE
ON WHETHER OR NOT, ADAM
RADWANSKI, YOU THINK THAT THE
RULES OUGHT TO BE CHANGED AT
QUEEN'S PARK TO GIVE A PARTY
WITH ONLY SEVEN SEATS OFFICIAL
PARTY STATUS WHEN WE KNOW THAT
THE THRESHOLD RIGHT NOW IS EIGHT.

The caption changes to "Bringing the Liberals back?"

Adam says I THINK
PROBABLY IN THE LONG RUN THEY
SHOULD BE.
I THINK THAT PARTY STILL HAS A
PRETTY STRONG VOICE.
THE FACT THAT THE LIBERALS WOULD
NOT DO THAT FOR THE NDP WHEN
THOSE ROLES WERE REVERSED MEANS
THAT THE NDP WILL PROBABLY TRY
TO OBSTRUCT IT AND
UNDERSTANDABLY SO AND IT'S IN
THEIR INTERESTS TO DO SO.
I THINK IT'S AN INTERESTING
DECISION FOR DOUG FORD, NOT ONLY
ON THAT BUT FOR THE
(INDISCERNIBLE) AND WHETHER HE
WOULD DO AWAY WITH THAT.
THEY'RE GOING TO NEED IT THE
MOST IN THAT THEY'RE DEEPLY IN
DEBT AND THEIR FUND-RAISING IS
GOING REALLY BAD.
HE HAS TO DECIDE FOR HIMSELF,
DOES HE WANT TO TRY TO KEEP A
SORT OF DIVIDED CENTRE LEFT...

Steve says YOU WOULD THINK
THAT'S IN HIS INTERESTS.

Adam says YOU WOULD THINK SO.
THERE ARE OTHER TORIES THAT SAY
KILL THE LIBERALS.
THEY WIN ELECTIONS.
THE NDP DOESN'T.
THE NDP BRAND IS WORTHLESS.
GO AGAINST THEM.
THERE'S GOING TO BE A REAL
DEBATE AND HE'S GOING TO HAVE TO
DECIDE HOW MUCH DOES HE WANT TO
KEEP THE LIBERALS ALIVE, WHICH
IS TERRIBLE FOR THE LIBERALS.
OF ALL THE PEOPLE IN WHOSE HANDS
THEY WANT THE FUTURE, DOUG FORD
IS PROBABLY THE LAST PERSON.

Steve says I DO REMEMBER TEN
YEARS AGO THERE WAS A DISCUSSION
IN THE McGUINTY GOVERNMENT AS
TO WHETHER OR NOT TO GIVE THE
NDP OFFICIAL PARTY STATUS EVEN
THOUGH THEY DIDN'T MEET THE
THRESHOLD.
THERE WAS AN MPP WHO SAID WE
SHOULD BECAUSE SOME DAY WE MAY
BE THERE TOO.
MR. BRADLEY, WHO SAID THAT?

Jim says I DID.
WE HAVE TO RECOGNIZE WHAT GOES
AROUND COMES AROUND.
ALSO THE NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY
HAD IN FACT GAINED A LOT IN
TERMS OF THE POPULAR VOTE.
I THINK YOU LOOK NOT ONLY AT THE
NUMBER OF SEATS BUT THE POPULAR
VOTE.
IF WE LOOK IN PROPORTIONAL
REPRESENTATION, FOR INSTANCE, IN
EUROPE.
IT KICKS IN AT 5 PERCENT OR
WHATEVER THEY HAPPEN TO HAVE IN
THAT COUNTRY.
I THINK WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THAT
AS WELL AND IN THIS CASE THE
LIBERAL PARTY GOT AROUND 20 percent.
I THINK THERE'S A CASE TO BE
MADE, JUST AS I THOUGHT THERE
WAS A CASE TO BE MADE WHEN THE
NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY WANTED TO
HAVE THAT.
IT'S A SENSE OF FAIRNESS.
ONE ALWAYS HAS TO REMEMBER THAT
WHAT YOU DO WILL BE REMEMBERED
BY THOSE OR HURT BY IT.

Steve says THEY ARE REMEMBERING
TODAY.
I DON'T EXPECT ANYBODY AT THIS
TABLE TO SAY AT THIS EARLY
JUNCTURE, HERE'S WHO I THINK
OUGHT TO BE THE NEXT PERMANENT
MEMBER OF THE LIBERAL PARTY TO
BRING THEM BACK TO
RESPECTABILITY, BUT THOSE
CONVERSATIONS, ELEANOR, ARE
GOING TO HAPPEN VERY SOON.
JOHN FRASER FROM OTTAWA, IT
LOOKS LIKE HE'S GOING TO BE THE
NEW INTERIM LEADER IN THE
LEGISLATURE.
JUST SHARE SOME OF WHAT YOU'RE
TALKING TO YOUR COLLEAGUES
ABOUT, WHAT YOU'RE THINKING
YOURSELF ABOUT WHAT KIND OF A
PERSON YOU NEED TO LEAD THIS
PARTY PERMANENTLY GOING FORWARD?

Eleanor says BOY, WE
COULD HAVE A WHOLE SHOW ON THAT,
STEVE.

Steve says IF YOU HAVE A NAME,
YOU CAN SHARE IT.

The caption changes to "Eleanor McMahon, @EMcMahonBurl."

Eleanor says I DON'T HAVE A NAME RIGHT
NOW.
I THINK, AND I BELIEVE THIS...
I'M NOT JUST SPINNING HERE... I
THINK THAT OUR FIRST TASK IS TO
DIGEST WHAT HAPPENED, TO UNPACK
WHAT WE NEED TO DO DIFFERENTLY,
WHAT WE CAN LEARN FROM THIS
RESULT AND FIGURE OUT WHERE WE
GO NEXT AND WE HAVE TO DO A LOT
OF TALKING AND A LOT OF
LISTENING.
I DON'T WANT TO GIVE AWAY CAUCUS
SECRETS, BUT I CAN TELL YOU THAT
PART OF THE DISCUSSION YESTERDAY
WHICH WAS PRODUCTIVE AND
PASSIONATE AND VERY CIVIL WAS
LISTENING IS SOMETHING THAT, IF
ALL GOVERNMENTS AREN'T CAREFUL,
ESPECIALLY AS YOU GET LONGER IN
TENURE, YOU CAN IN VERY REAL
WAYS FORGET HOW TO LISTEN TO
PEOPLE.
AND I THINK IF THERE'S ANYTHING
THAT WE TAKE AWAY FROM THIS
DEFEAT OR THIS LESSON IS THAT
LISTENING TO PEOPLE IS SOMETHING
THAT YOU CAN NEVER, THE GOLDEN
PHEASANT... LISTENING TO PEOPLE
IS CRITICAL.
BEFORE WE THINK ABOUT WHO THIS
CAN BE, AT A PRACTICAL LEVEL,
WE'RE IN DEBT.
WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT THAT
BEFORE HAVING ANY KIND OF
LEADERSHIP CONVENTION.
LEADERSHIP ALSO ALLOWS YOU TO
RAISE MONEY, WHICH IS HELPFUL,
AND PUTS YOU OUT THERE IN WAYS
THAT ARE IMPORTANT AND CAN GET
MORE PEOPLE... WE NEED TO CALL
THE LIBERALS THAT LEFT US HOME
AGAIN.
SO WHO THAT PERSON IS... IT'S
INTERESTING.
I ALSO THINK WE NEED TO THINK
ABOUT SOCIAL MEDIA AND WOMEN IN
LEADERSHIP AND WHAT THAT MEANT.
WE COULD HAVE A WHOLE
CONVERSATION ABOUT THE PREMIER
AND THE DISMANTLING OF THAT AND
THE WEBSITE AND THE SOCIAL MEDIA
CAMPAIGN THAT WAS WAGED AGAINST
HER AND WHAT THAT MEANT FOR THE
FUTURE OF ATTRACTING REALLY GOOD
PEOPLE TO PUBLIC LIFE.
A LOT OF WOMEN ARE GOING TO SHY
AWAY FROM IT, I CAN TELL YOU...
NOT JUST WOMEN, BUT PARTICULARLY
WOMEN, AFTER WHAT WE SAW DURING
THIS LAST CAMPAIGN.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: TVO.org. Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, YouTube, Periscope, Instagram."

Steve says YOU REFER TO THE
CURSE OF FEMALE LEADERSHIP IN
THE COUNTRY, WHICH IS NO FEMALE
PREMIER HAS EVER BEEN REELECTED.
YOU'RE ABOUT TO HAVE A BOOK
PUBLISHED ON THIS.
DO YOU WANT TO WEIGH IN?

Sylvia says SURE.
THERE'S AN UNFORTUNATE PATTERN
THAT PARTICULARLY WOMEN LEADERS
ARE TARGETED IN SOCIAL MEDIA.

Steve says IS THAT WHY KATHLEEN
WYNNE LOST, THOUGH?

Sylvia says I DO NOT THINK THAT'S WHY SHE
LOST.

Steve says DID IT PLAY A ROLE?
DOES HER GENDER AND HER SEXUAL
ORIENTATION PLAY A ROLE AT ALL
IN THE DEBACLE THAT WAS LAST WEEK?

Sylvia says I THINK OVER TIME THAT THE
DEBATE OVER SEX EDUCATION OFTEN
BECAME A KIND OF PROXY FOR
PEOPLE'S COMFORT LEVELS WITH
WOMEN AND SEXUAL ORIENTATION
MINORITIES IN POSITIONS OF
RESPONSIBILITY.
BUT TO GO BACK TO THE LARGER
QUESTION OF WHERE THE ONTARIO
LIBERALS GO, I THINK THERE IS AN
IMPORTANT NEED TO BRIDGE THE
URBAN-RURAL DIVIDE.
ONE OF THE IMPORTANT THINGS ED
CLARK SAID IN PROMOTING
PRIVATIZATION, I BELIEVE HE TOLD
THE TORONTO STAR, IS THAT IT
WOULD HELP RURAL HYDRO USERS
BECAUSE IT WOULD BRING THE
DISCIPLINE TO THE MARKET.
MANY RURAL HYDRO USERS ARE THE
MOST ADAMANT ABOUT THE FACT THAT
THEY FEEL THEY'VE BEEN GOUGED BY
HIGH RATES.
WE ALSO SEE THERE WERE LOTS OF
PEOPLE WHO THOUGHT THAT THE
LIBERALS WERE PANDERING TO
DOWNTOWN TORONTO VOTERS.
I LIVE IN A DOWNTOWN TORONTO
SEAT.
IT GOT AN UNPRECEDENTED NDP
MEMBER ELECTED.
I MEAN, THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF
PEOPLE IN DOWNTOWN TORONTO WHO
FEEL LIKE THE LIBERALS LEFT
THEM.

Steve says IS IT FAIR, ADAM, TO
SAY THAT THE NEXT LEADER IS
ALWAYS THE OPPOSITE OF THE
PREVIOUS LEADER, RIGHT?
SO KATHLEEN WYNNE'S TOO TORONTO.
IS THE NEXT LEADER OF THE
LIBERAL PARTY GOING TO COME FROM
RURAL AND DOES IT HAVE TO BE A MAN?
DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

The caption changes to "Adam Radwanski, @aradwanski."

Adam says I HOPE THEY
DON'T THINK OF IT THAT WAY.
THE PENDULUM DOES CORRECT
ITSELF.
DOUG FORD IS A CORRECTION OF
SORTS TO KATHLEEN WYNNE.
AND THE NEXT PREMIER WILL BE A
CORRECTION OF SORTS TO DOUG
FORD.
BUT WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT
CORRECTION IS.
IT COULD HAVE BEEN SOMEBODY WHO
RAN FISCALLY CONSERVATIVELY AND
WAS FOCUSED ON GETTING THE BOOKS
BACK IN ORDER.
INSTEAD WE HAVE A STYLISTIC
CORRECTION, SOMEBODY PEOPLE
WOULDN'T FEEL WAS TALKING DOWN
TO THEM.
THAT KIND OF THING.
SOMEBODY WHO IS ANTIELITE.
WE DON'T KNOW WHAT IT WILL BE.
I THINK WHAT YOU REALLY NEED IS
JUST SOMEBODY THAT HAS A STRONG
IDENTITY.
WE'VE SEEN... PEOPLE SEEM TO
VALUE AUTHENTICITY IN THEIR
POLITICIANS RIGHT NOW.
THEY NEED SOMEBODY... FRANKLY
THE NEXT LEADER IS GOING TO
AFFECT THE COURSE OF THE PARTY.
THAT'S WHAT LEADERS DO RIGHT
NOW.
THE FEDERAL LIBERALS LUCKED INTO
SOMEBODY OR WERE LUCKY ENOUGH TO
HAVE SOMEBODY WHO WERE ABLE TO
REVIVE THEM.
THE ONTARIO LIBERALS CAN'T
EXPECT JUSTIN TRUDEAU'S LEVEL AS
A GENERATIONAL CANDIDATE BUT
SOMEBODY WHO HAS A STRONG ENOUGH
PERSONALITY THAT THEY'RE ABLE TO
TAKE A LOT ON THEIR SHOULDERS.
THAT THEY'RE GOING TO NEED.

Steve says YOU GO BACK TO THE
LAST ELECTION AND FIND OUT WHAT
HAPPENED.
SANDRA PUPATELLO CAME SECOND.
WHAT DO YOU THINK IF THE LIBERAL
PARTY WERE LED BY HER?

Jim says SHE WAS A VERY
GOOD CANDIDATE, A VERY STRONG
CANDIDATE, A VERY LIKEABLE
INDIVIDUAL.
I DON'T KNOW WHETHER SHE HAS ANY
INTEREST IN PURSUING THAT...

Steve says SHE SAYS SHE HAS NO
PLANS TO HAVE PLANS.

Jim says THAT'S BILL
DAVIS SAYING THAT.
I CAN RECALL THAT.
SHE WOULD CERTAINLY BE A SERIOUS
CONTENDER WERE SHE TO DECIDE TO
DO SO.
ONE OF THE THINGS WE HAVE TO
LOOK AT IS IF YOU LOOK AT THE
BOOK CALLED "THE POLITICAL
BRAIN," IT TALKS ABOUT PEOPLE
BEING ATTRACTED TO LEADERSHIP
CANDIDATES EMOTIONALLY AS
OPPOSED TO INTELLECTUALLY.
WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THAT WITH ALL
LEADERS.
LEADERS HAVE TO BE LIKEABLE, OR
IF NOT LIKEABLE, DISTINGUISHED
IN A DIFFERENT WAY.
SOMETIMES EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE.
EITHER NOT LIKEABLE AT ALL BUT
VERY MUCH RESPECTED, OR VERY
LIKEABLE.
SO THE LIBERAL PARTY WILL HAVE
TO LOOK CAREFULLY AT WHO THE
NEXT LEADER IS GOING TO BE.
I THINK THE SUGGESTION THAT
THERE BE A BRIDGE BETWEEN URBAN
ONTARIO AND RURAL ONTARIO IS
VERY IMPORTANT BECAUSE WE HAVE
BEEN DIVIDED FOR SOME PERIOD OF
TIME, AND THAT'S NOT UNIQUE TO
THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO.
THAT'S ACROSS NORTH AMERICA, IF
YOU LOOK AT IT, THAT DIVIDE.
WE HAVE TO START BRINGING PEOPLE
TOGETHER.
THAT'S NOT EASILY DONE BECAUSE
WHAT ATTRACTS SOME CANDIDATES IS
ATTRACTIVE FOR SOME CANDIDATES,
IS NOT ATTRACTIVE TO THOSE IN
ANOTHER PART OF THE PROVINCE.

Steve says WHILE YOU HAVE THE
FLOOR, YOU WERE HERE A YEAR AGO.
I DON'T KNOW IF YOU REMEMBER
THIS.
BUT IT WAS ALMOST EXACTLY A YEAR
AGO YOU WERE HERE TALKING ABOUT
40 YEARS IN PUBLIC LIFE BECAUSE
YOU HAD HIT THE 40TH YEAR
ANNIVERSARY MARK.
WHEN I ASKED YOU ABOUT WHETHER
IT WAS WORTH IT TO SPEND 40
YEARS OF YOUR LIFE IN PUBLIC
LIFE, HERE IS WHAT YOU SAID.
SHELDON, GO.

A clip plays on screen with the caption "Jim Bradley, MPP. June 8, 2017."
In the clip, Jim talks in the studio.

He says PROBABLY, AND
THIS IS VERY DANGEROUS, I ALWAYS
TELL PEOPLE, BUT PROBABLY FROM
THE TIME I WAS A LITTLE KID, I
WANTED TO BE A MEMBER OF
PARLIAMENT.
I WAS IN A GRADE 5 CLASS AND
THERE WAS A MUNICIPAL ELECTION
AT THE TIME AND I JUST TOOK TO
IT.
THE TEACHER WAS TEACHING THAT,
AS THEY DO TO KIDS TODAY.
AFTER I THOUGHT THIS WOULD BE
SOMETHING OF INTEREST TO ME.
I NEVER THOUGHT OF ANYTHING
ELSE, ALTHOUGH IF I DID, PERHAPS
A SPORTS ANNOUNCER OR SOMETHING
OF THAT NATURE.

Steve says MAYBE THE SABRES
NEED A NEW PLAY-BY-PLAY GUY.

Jim says OR MAYBE A
GENERAL MANAGER.

Steve says YOU DON'T WANT THAT JOB.
IT'S A KILLER OF A JOB.

Jim says IT DOESN'T
LAST 40 YEARS, I ASSURE YOU.

The clip ends.

The caption changes to "Is there a future after politics?"

Steve says YOU'RE ABLE TO TAKE
THAT SABRES' G.M. JOB IF YOU
WANT IT.
DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING TO ANNOUNCE
TODAY?

Jim says I HAVE NOTHING
TO ANNOUNCE IN THAT REGARD BUT I
WILL HAVE MORE TIME TO PURSUE MY
SPORTS INTERESTS.
BOTH LOCALLY AND I MUST SAY
INTERNATIONALLY EVEN, I ENJOY
SPORTS VERY MUCH.
SO WHO KNOWS WHAT COULD BE IN MY
FUTURE THERE?

Steve says LET ME ASK YOU
ANOTHER WEIRD QUESTION.
FRANK MILLER WAS PREMIER OF
ONTARIO.
HE THEN WENT ON TO BECOME THE
REGIONAL CHAIR IN MUSKOKA AFTER
HIS PREMIERSHIP WAS OVER.
YOU KNOW, JOHN QUINCY ADAMS WAS
THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED
STATES.
HE WENT ON AFTER HE LOST TO
BECOME A MEMBER OF THE HOUSE OF
REPRESENTATIVES.
QUESTION: IS YOUR POLITICAL
CAREER OVER?

Jim says I HAVE NO
PLANS TO HAVE PLANS.

[LAUGHTER]

Steve says IS IT FEASIBLE THAT
YOU COULD, IN FOUR YEARS' TIME,
TRY TO BECOME THE LIBERAL
NOMINEE IN ST. CATHARINES AGAIN
OR RUN FOR SOMETHING ELSE?

Jim says ONE CANNOT PREDICT THE FUTURE
EASILY.
WHEN ONE DOES, IT'S PLAYED BACK
ON TVO.

[LAUGHTER]

Steve says WHAT A CAGEY ANSWER
THAT WAS.
OKAY.
ALL RIGHT.
I'VE GOT SOME TAPE OF YOU TOO.
ARE YOU READY FOR THIS?

Eleanor says UH-OH.

Steve says YOU WERE HERE FOUR
YEARS AGO AFTER YOU HAD WON YOUR
ELECTION.
YOU WERE PART OF A SHOW HERE WE
DID CALLED THE ROOKIES.

Eleanor says THAT'S RIGHT.

Steve says LET'S SEE WHAT YOU
HAD TO SAY THEN.
SHELDON, GO.

A clip plays on screen with the caption "Eleanor McMahon, MPP. October 14, 2014."
In the clip, Eleanor talks to Steve in the studio.

Steve says SO PLEASE COMPLETE... ELEANOR,
TO YOU FIRST... THE FOLLOWING
SENTENCE: MY TIME IN PUBLIC
LIFE, HOWEVER LONG IT LASTS,
WILL HAVE BEEN WORTH IT IF I
MANAGE TO...
WHAT?

Eleanor says IF I MANAGE TO MAKE A
DIFFERENCE IN PEOPLE'S LIVES.
IF I MANAGE TO CREATE A
PROSPERITY AGENDA FOR BURLINGTON
AND BRING SOME PROSPERITY TO
BURLINGTON AND ENHANCE THE
QUALITY OF LIFE AND POTENTIALLY,
ON A BROADER SCALE, AS A
PARLIAMENTARY ASSISTANT IN MY
CURRENT ROLE, MAKE A DIFFERENCE
TO THE PEOPLE OF ONTARIO.

The clip ends.

Steve says THAT IS THE
BENCHMARK YOU SET FOR YOURSELF
FOUR YEARS AGO.
HOW DID YOU DO?

Eleanor says WOW.
I THINK I DID WELL.
I AM PROUD OF WHAT I
ACCOMPLISHED, BOTH IN BURLINGTON
AND BEYOND.
AS I SAID EARLIER, IT'S A
TREMENDOUS PRIVILEGE TO BE IN
THIS ROLE AND TO HAVE THIS
OPPORTUNITY.
THERE USED TO BE ONLY 107 OF US.
THERE'S NOW 124.
IS THAT RIGHT?
IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT IN THAT
CONTEXT, IT IS A PRIVILEGED
OPPORTUNITY.
DID I BRING JOBS AND PROSPERITY
TO BURLINGTON?
YES, I DID.
I'M GLAD I DID THAT.
AGAIN, I WOULD HAVE LOVED TO
CONTINUE BUT, AGAIN, PEOPLE
SPOKE.
DID I DO THAT ON A PROVINCIAL
BASIS?
YES.
I THINK YOU KNOW ONE OF THE
REASONS I CAME TO PUBLIC LIFE IS
I HAD A TRAGIC LOSS, MY HUSBAND
WAS KILLED BY A CARELESS DRIVER
IN 2006.
I AMENDED THE HIGHWAY TRAFFIC
ACT IN HIS MEMORY.
WE INVESTED 100 MILLION DOLLARS IN
CYCLING.
AS THE CURRENT CONVERSATION IN
TORONTO AND ELSEWHERE BUILDS TO
ROAD SAFETY, I PASSED A LAW IN
GREG'S MEMORY TO ADDRESS THAT
GAP IN VULNERABLE ROAD USERS.
SO I FEEL AS THOUGH I TOOK THAT
OPPORTUNITY AND BECAUSE OF SOME
VERY SMART AND HELPFUL PEOPLE
ALONG THE WAY, INCLUDING THE
PREMIER, GAVE ME THE
OPPORTUNITY, I WAS ABLE TO MAKE
A DIFFERENCE.
AND I'LL ALWAYS BE GRATEFUL FOR
THAT.
AND THE 100 MILLION DOLLARS THAT I
INVESTED IN CYCLING ACROSS
ONTARIO, I WILL NEVER... NO ONE
CAN TAKE THAT AWAY FROM ME.
AND I FEEL VERY PRIVILEGED ABOUT
THAT.
AND I HOPE I CHANGED PEOPLE'S
LIVES AND MADE IT SAFER FOR
THEM.

Steve says NICE.

Eleanor says THANK YOU.

Steve says DO YOU THINK YOUR
POLITICAL CAREER IS OVER?

Eleanor says I DON'T KNOW.
I THINK THE PARTY HAS A VERY
BRIGHT FUTURE, AS SUNNY AS THAT
SOUNDS.
I'M AN OPTIMIST.

Steve says DO YOU WANT TO BE
INVOLVED IN THAT?

Eleanor says I NEED TO THINK ABOUT THAT.
I THINK ONE HAS TO BE ASKED IN
THESE OPPORTUNITIES AND SOMEONE
NEEDS TO KNOCK ON YOUR DOOR AND
SAY WE THINK THERE'S A ROLE FOR
YOU, AND IN THAT CONTEXT, IF
THERE'S A ROLE THAT I CAN
PLAY... I HAVE ALREADY TOLD MY
COLLEAGUES WHO REMAIN AS ELECTED
REPRESENTATIVES, THE MAGNIFICENT
SEVEN AS WE'RE CALLING THEM,
THOSE SEVEN REPRESENTATIVES ARE
GOING TO BE THE FACE OF OUR
PARTY IN THE LEGISLATURE, BUT
THEY DON'T STAND ALONE.
THERE ARE MILLIONS OF ONTARIANS
WHO ARE LIBERALS AND CONSIDER
THEMSELVES LIBERALS, EVEN THOUGH
THEY MIGHT HAVE VOTED
DIFFERENTLY THIS TIME, AND WE
NEED TO BRING THOSE PEOPLE HOME.
SO IF THERE'S AN OPPORTUNITY IN
THAT CONTEXT FOR ME TO PLAY A
POSITIVE ROLE, I WELCOME THAT.

The caption changes to "Producer: Steve Paikin, @spaikin; Producer: Colin Ellis, @ColinEllis81."

Then, it changes again to "tvo.org/theagenda."

Steve says GOTCHA.
I WANT TO THANK ALL OF YOU FOR
COMING AROUND OUR TABLE AND
SHARING YOUR VIEWS.
JIM BRADLEY THE FORMER MPP FOR
ST. CATHARINES, NUMBER TWO ON
THE ALL-TIME LIST OF TIME SPENT
AT QUEEN'S PARK, ELEANOR
McMAHON, PRESIDENT OF THE
TREASURY BOARD FOR A COUPLE MORE
WEEKS ANYWAY, UNTIL THE 29TH OF
JUNE WHEN THE TRANSITION TAKES
PLACE.
SYLVIA BASHEVKIN FROM THE
UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO.
ADAM RADWANSKI FROM THE GLOBE
AND MAIL.
THANKS SO MUCH, EVERYBODY.

Watch: Whither the Liberals?