Transcript: Unconventional Women | Aug 15, 2018

Nam sits in the studio. She's in her early forties, with shoulder length curly brown hair. She's wearing glasses, a black blazer, spotted blouse, and a black bow.

A caption on screen reads "Unconventional women. Nam Kiwanuka, @namshine, @theagenda."

Nam says MORE AND MORE CANADIANS ARE
OPTING TO LIVE ALONE, ACCORDING
TO THE LATEST CENSUS DATA.
ONE OF THE FACTORS DRIVING THAT
TREND IS MORE WOMEN IN THE
WORKFORCE MEANS MORE ARE ABLE TO
AFFORD TO LIVE INDEPENDENTLY.
BUT HAVING A CHOICE OF A SINGLE
CHILD-FREE LIFE ISN'T ONE FREE
OF IMPLICATIONS.
JOINING US NOW WITH MORE ON THAT
ARE:
ANDREA BAIN, AUTHOR OF SINGLE GIRL PROBLEMS: WHY BEING SINGLE
ISN'T A PROBLEM TO BE SOLVED.

A picture of the book appears briefly on screen. The cover is white, with the title in letters cut-out against a yellow and pink backdrop.
Andrea is in her thirties, with long straight brown hair. She's wearing a bright yellow dress with a red floral print.

Nam continues AND KELLI MARIA KORDUCKI, AUTHOR OF HARD TO DO: THE SURPRISING feminist history of breaking up.

A picture of Kelli's book appears briefly on screen. The cover features a drawing of a floral bouquet made of used paper tissues, next to a tub of ice cream.
Kelli is in her thirties, with short brown hair. She's wearing a pale pink shirt and platelet earrings.

Nam says HI.

ANDREA AND KELLI SAY HELLO.

Nam says I HAVE TO SAY YOU BOTH LOOK
GREAT.

KELLI SAYS OH, THANKS.

ANDREA SAYS THANK YOU.
THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.
THIS IS GOING TO BE FUN.

NAM SAYS AND IT'S NICE TO HAVE YOU
HERE TO SPEAK ABOUT
UNCONVENTIONAL WOMEN.
SO IN THE INTRO, I MENTIONED THE
CENSUS, SO LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT THAT.
AND THE CENSUS CAME OUT IN 2016.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "Household types in Canada. 2016."

A bar chart shows that 28 percent of households are one person, 26 are one couple with children and 26 are one couple with no children.

Nam reads data from the slate and says
THERE ARE MORE... THERE ARE NOW
MORE PEOPLE LIVING ALONE THAN
COUPLES WITH CHILDREN AND
COUPLES WITHOUT CHILDREN.
LAGGING BEHIND THAT ARE
LONE-PARENT FAMILIES, NON-FAMILY
HOUSEHOLDS SHARED BY TWO OR MORE
PEOPLE,
AND MULTIGENERATIONAL
HOUSEHOLDS.
NOTABLY, THE FERTILITY RATE IS
1.6 BIRTHS PER WOMAN, WHICH IS
WELL BELOW THE 2.1 NEEDED FOR
POPULATION RENEWAL.
IT SOUNDS SO SCIENTIFIC.

[CHUCKLES]

ANDREA SAYS MM HMM.

Nam says BUT TO BOTH OF YOU, YOU'RE PART
OF A GROWING DEMOGRAPHIC.
YOU'RE NOT MARRIED; YOU DON'T
HAVE CHILDREN.
EVEN SO, SOME PEOPLE STILL SEE
THIS AS UNCONVENTIONAL.
DOES IT FEEL THAT WAY TO YOU?
ANDREA?

The caption changes to "Andrea Bain. Author, 'Single girl problems.'"
Then, it changes again to "An emerging demographic."

Andrea says ABSOLUTELY.
I'M BORN IN A CARIBBEAN FAMILY.
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
I'M THE ONLY ONE OUT OF EVERY
FAMILY MEMBER WHO'S SINGLE AND
DOES NOT HAVE CHILDREN, SO YOU
CAN IMAGINE FAMILY GATHERINGS
ARE AMAZING.
BUT, YEAH...

NAM SAYS DO YOU GET A LOT OF
QUESTIONS ASKING, LIKE,
"WHEN ARE YOU GOING
TO SETTLE DOWN?"

Andrea says I GET... ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

NAM SAYS YEAH.

Andrea says I'VE BEEN GETTING QUESTIONS
SINCE MY EARLY 20S.
LIKE, I ALWAYS KNEW... MARRIAGE
WAS SOMETHING THAT I WAS
INTERESTED IN.
CHILDREN I KNEW I WAS NEVER
INTERESTED IN HAVING CHILDREN.
AND I WOULD SAY THAT TO MY
FAMILY, AND IT'S LIKE THEY
WOULDN'T HEAR IT.
THEY'RE LIKE, "YOU'LL CHANGE
YOUR MIND."
OR THEY'D LOOK AT ME LIKE I WAS
ABSOLUTELY OUT OF MY MIND.
AND AS I GOT OLDER, AS I GOT OUT
OF MY 20S AND OUT OF MY 30S,
THEY REALLY STARTED TO LOOK AT
ME LIKE,
"OK, THIS IS BECOMING A
DESPERATE SITUATION."
SO, THEN THEY JUST START
POINTING AT ANY WALKING... ANY MAN
WALKING BY, LIKE, "HOW ABOUT
THIS GUY?"

[KELLI CHUCKLES]

Andrea says AND IT'S LIKE, "NO, THAT'S NOT
WHAT I WANT."
AND IT REALLY IS HARD FOR THEM,
BECAUSE CULTURALLY, THAT'S ALL
THEY KNOW, THIS IS WHAT YOU
DO... FOR THEM TO ACCEPT THAT THIS
IS A LIFESTYLE THAT I'M
COMFORTABLE WITH, AND I'M NOT
DESPERATELY LOOKING FOR SOMEONE
TO ATTACH MYSELF TO AND TO PUSH
OUT TWO KIDS FOR THEM.
AND THEY STILL... EVEN WITH THE
BOOK OUT... AND I WROTE A BOOK AND WAS
LIKE, "HERE," SOME OF THEM STILL
ARE JUST LIKE NODDING THEIR HEAD
QUIETLY.
IT'S LIKE, "SHE'LL CHANGE HER
MIND."

Nam says AND WHAT ABOUT YOU, KELLI?

Kelli says YOU KNOW, I'M CERTAINLY BREAKING
CONVENTION WITHIN MY OWN FAMILY,
LIKE YOURS.
I GREW UP IN A SALVADORIAN AND
POLISH, VERY CATHOLIC KIND OF
TRADITIONAL FAMILY STRUCTURE.
BUT THAT BEING SAID, AMONG MY
FRIEND GROUPS, I'M... I'M
THE NORM.
SO, NO, IT DOESN'T FEEL
UNCONVENTIONAL; IT FEELS LIKE
THE WAY THINGS ARE.

Nam says AND THE BOOK THAT I MENTIONED IN
THE INTRO, IT'S ABOUT THE
HISTORY OF BREAKING UP.

KELLI SAYS MM HMM.

NAM SAYS WHY WRITE A BOOK ABOUT THE
HISTORY OF BREAKING UP?

Kelli says GREAT QUESTION.

[NAM LAUGHS]

The caption changes to "Kelli Maria Korducki. Author, 'Hard to do.'"

Kelli says WELL, I WENT THROUGH A BREAKUP
THAT WAS VERY SIGNIFICANT IN
MY LIFE.
I HAD BEEN WITH THIS PERSON FOR
NINE YEARS, BASICALLY MY
ENTIRE 20S.
AND I JUST REALIZED OVER THE
COURSE OF THE BREAKUP, MANY OF
THE QUESTIONS THAT I WAS ASKING
MYSELF, MANY OF THE THOUGHTS IN
MY HEAD, HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH
THE RELATIONSHIP ITSELF, BUT HAD
MORE TO DO WITH LIKE THE SOCIAL
IMPLICATIONS AND KIND OF LIKE
THINKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WHY IT
WAS OK FOR ME TO MAKE A DECISION
TO END A RELATIONSHIP THAT WAS
HEALTHY AND FINE IN
MANY REGARDS.
IT JUST WASN'T THE RIGHT
RELATIONSHIP FOR ME.

NAM SAYS I WANT TO PICK UP ON WHAT
YOU JUST SAID:
SOCIAL IMPLICATIONS.
LIKE WHAT?

Kelli says YOU KNOW, WE HEAR SO MANY
MESSAGES AS WOMEN WHO DATE MEN
ABOUT JUST HOW RARE IT IS TO
FIND THE LIKE ILLUSIVE GOOD GUY,
RIGHT?

ANDREA chuckles.

Kelli says SO, I THOUGHT THAT I WAS ALMOST
BEING LIKE IRRESPONSIBLE OR
FRIVOLOUS TO DECIDE TO LIKE PART
WITH THAT.
LIKE, IN MY...

Nam says AND WHERE DO YOU THINK YOU GOT
THAT MESSAGE FROM?
'CAUSE YOU WERE 29, RIGHT, WHEN
YOU BROKE UP?

KELLI SAYS I WAS 28, YEAH.

NAM SAYS 28.
SO, I GUESS WE'VE ALL HEARD
THAT, "OH, YOUR BIOLOGICAL CLOCK
IS TICKING."

ANDREA SAYS IT'S PRIME TIME TO GET
MARRIED.

Nam says I ALWAYS THOUGHT MINE WAS BROKEN
BECAUSE I NEVER HEARD IT.

[WOMEN CHUCKLE]

NAM SAYS BUT IT'S AROUND THAT AGE
WHERE, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE ALMOST
30, BUT THEN YOU DECIDE TO BREAK
UP.
BUT YOU... YOU WERE AWARE THAT YOU
MIGHT BE DOING SOMETHING THAT
OTHER PEOPLE WOULD FROWN ON?

KELLI SAYS TOTALLY.
WELL, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT
KIND OF INSTIGATED THE BREAKUP
ITSELF WAS THAT A BUNCH OF OUR
FRIENDS WERE GETTING MARRIED.
ACTUALLY, DURING THE COURSE OF
OUR BREAKUP, WE ATTENDED FOUR
WEDDINGS OVER SIX WEEKS... OVER A SIX-WEEK PERIOD, LIKE,
WHILE WE WERE ACTIVELY BREAKING
UP AS DATES.
WE WENT...

NAM SAYS AND FOR YOU, IT WAS LIKE,
"THIS IS NOT WHAT I WANT"?

KELLI SAYS WELL, YEAH.
I MEAN, I JUST... YEAH.
AND MAYBE... NEVER SAY NEVER, BUT
AT THAT MOMENT AND IN THAT
PARTNERSHIP, IT WAS NOT WHAT I
WANTED.
NO, IT WASN'T RIGHT FOR ME.

Nam says AND, ANDREA, WHY WAS IT
IMPORTANT TO TELL YOUR STORY
ABOUT BEING SINGLE, AND WHY IT'S
NOT A PROBLEM?

Andrea says WHERE DO I EVEN START?

[NAM LAUGHS]

Andrea says WELL FIRST OF ALL, I WAS
PERSONALLY JUST SICK AND TIRED
OF PEOPLE TALKING AT ME, BECAUSE
I WAS... WHETHER IT WAS A PERSON
THAT KNEW ME VERY WELL OR A
STRANGER, PEOPLE FELT VERY
COMFORTABLE TO ASK ME QUESTIONS
LIKE, "SO, WHY ARE YOU
STILL SINGLE?
LIKE, I DON'T UNDERSTAND.
YOU SEEM LIKE YOU HAVE ALL YOUR
STUFF TOGETHER."
AND I ALWAYS FELT LIKE...
YEAH, I ALWAYS FELT LIKE, "WOW,
I DON'T EVEN KNOW YOU, OR I
THOUGHT I KNEW YOU," AND YOU
FEEL LIKE WHY... I FEEL LIKE
THERE'S A LOT OF JUDGMENT IN
THAT QUESTION.
AND ALSO, "WHY DO I HAVE TO
EXPLAIN MYSELF TO YOU?"
I WOULD NEVER WALK UP TO A
MARRIED PERSON AND BE LIKE,
"SO, THIS HUSBAND, WHY DID YOU
CHOOSE THIS GUY?" BECAUSE THAT
WOULD JUST BE LUDICROUS, BUT
PEOPLE VERY COMFORTABLE,
NO MATTER WHERE YOU ARE,
NO MATTER THE SETTING.
IT'S HEIGHTENED AT A WEDDING;
IT'S HEIGHTENED AT LIKE,
YOU KNOW, SOMEBODY'S... SOME CHILD
CHRISTENING... BUT PEOPLE FELT VERY
COMFORTABLE.
AND I ALWAYS FELT REALLY
COMFORTABLE IN MY SKIN, AND IT
TOOK ME A LONG TIME TO TURN DOWN
THE VOLUME ON EVERYBODY ELSE'S
COMMENTS AND ACCUSATIONS OR
INSINUATIONS ABOUT WHO I WAS,
AND TO TURN UP THE VOLUME ON
"HOW AM I FEELING?
AM I OK?
AM I... DO I LIKE THIS
RELATIONSHIP THAT I'M IN?
DO I REALLY WANT TO GET MARRIED?
AM I WIFE MATERIAL RIGHT NOW?"
AND AS SOON AS I DID THAT, I WAS
LIKE, "OK, YOU'RE FINE.
IT'S... YOU HAVE TO JUST REALIZE."
AND THAT'S WHAT KIND OF LAUNCHED
ME INTO WRITING THIS BOOK AND
TALKING ABOUT IT ON TELEVISION
SHOWS, AND DOING LIKE... WRITING
LITTLE ARTICLES, JUST KIND OF... I
KNEW THAT I WASN'T THE ONLY ONE.
AND UNLIKE YOU, I WAS THE ONLY
ONE IN MY PEER GROUP WHO WASN'T
MARRIED...
SO I WAS GETTING IT FROM
EVERYWHERE.
SO FOR A LONG TIME, I FELT LIKE,
"WOW, IT'S ONLY ME.
I'M THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN'T GET
THEIR ACT TOGETHER
AND FIND SOMEBODY."

Nam says DID YOU FEEL... THIS MIGHT BE AN
IMPOLITE QUESTION TO ASK...

ANDREA SAYS GO FOR IT...

Nam says BUT DID YOU THINK THAT... LIKE,
DID YOU THINK, "WHY AM I NOT
GETTING MARRIED?
WHY DON'T I... WHY AM I NOT IN A
RELATIONSHIP?
IS SOMETHING MISSING WITH ME?"

Andrea says OH, FOR SURE.

NAM SAYS YEAH.

Andrea says IN MY 20S, WHEN I WAS PROBABLY
LIKE MY MOST INSECURE, AND I WAS
GOING TO A MILLION WEDDINGS,
AND, YOU KNOW, MY GIRLFRIENDS... I
HAD GIRLFRIENDS WHO STARTED
GETTING MARRIED AS EARLY AS LIKE
AGE 21, 22, AND THEN, YOU KNOW,
THE ONES WHO GET MARRIED IN
THEIR MID-20S AND THEN CLOSER TO
30, AND YOU DO FEEL THAT WAY.
ESPECIALLY IN MY 20S.
I WAS SO INSECURE, JUST KIND OF
GOING, "WELL, SHE'S NOT EVEN
THAT NICE AND SHE HAS A
BOYFRIEND AND HE'S PROPOSING.
WHAT AM I DOING WRONG?"
SO, THERE WAS A LONG PERIOD OF
ME DOING THAT.
AND IT TOOK ME KIND OF GETTING
INTO MY 30S, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU
KIND OF FIND YOURSELF AND YOU
FIND YOUR VOICE OF JUST KIND
OF GOING...
"WAIT A SECOND, DO YOU WANT
THAT BECAUSE THEY'RE
DOING THAT?"
KIND OF LIKE YOU KNOW WHEN YOUR
PARENTS ASK YOU,
"SO IF ALL YOUR FRIENDS ARE
JUMPING OFF A BRIDGE, WOULD YOU
JUMP OFF A BRIDGE?"
I HAD TO ASK MYSELF, LIKE, "JUST
BECAUSE EVERYBODY'S DOING THAT,
DO YOU WANT TO DO THAT?"
BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, IT'S A VERY
BIG THING TO GET MARRIED AND TO
TIE... LIKE, TO HAVE CHILDREN AND
TO TIE YOUR FINANCES TOGETHER
WITH SOMEBODY.
IT SHOULDN'T BE SOMETHING YOU'RE
DOING BECAUSE YOU'RE DESPERATE
TO DO WHAT EVERYBODY ELSE IS
DOING.
AND, YOU KNOW, JUST AGAIN,
MATURITY AND OVER TIME AND
RELATIONSHIPS AND LISTENING TO
MYSELF, AND, YOU KNOW, THERAPY
DOESN'T HURT EITHER...

[KELLI CHUCKLES]

Andrea says TO KIND OF FIGURE IT OUT.
BUT YEAH, FOR SURE, ABSOLUTELY.

Nam says NOW, WHEN THE CENSUS CAME OUT IN
2016, IT WAS A BIG DEAL BECAUSE
THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME IN
CANADIAN HISTORY...
THAT PEOPLE IN SINGLE
HOUSEHOLDS OUTNUMBERED THOSE IN
MULTIPLE-FAMILY... IN FAMILY
HOUSEHOLDS.
WHY DO YOU THINK... THIS QUESTION
IS TO BOTH OF YOU.
WHY DO YOU THINK MORE PEOPLE ARE
LIVING SINGLE AND FEWER PEOPLE
ARE HAVING CHILDREN?

Kelli says ECONOMICS.
PEOPLE CAN AFFORD TO... MORE WOMEN
ARE IN THE WORKFORCE AND CAN
AFFORD TO SUPPORT THEMSELVES IN
A SINGLE-OCCUPANCY
HOUSEHOLD SITUATION.
BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THE COST
OF LIVING IS VERY HIGH, AND IT'S
DIFFICULT TO AFFORD KIDS.
AND IT'S GETTING VERY EXPENSIVE
TO LIVE IN URBAN CENTRES.
CERTAINLY TORONTO IS A MAJOR
EXAMPLE OF THAT.
YEAH, I THINK THOSE ARE THE
MAJOR CONTRIBUTING FACTORS.

NAM SAYS AND ANDREA?

Andrea says YEAH, I THINK ECONOMICS PLAYS A
HUGE FACTOR, BUT MORE IN THE
SENSE THAT WOMEN... THINK ABOUT IT.
BEFORE, A WOMAN, YOU LEFT YOUR
PARENTS HOUSE TO GO TO YOUR
MATRIMONIAL HOME... BECAUSE THAT WAS WHAT WAS
EXPECTED, AND ANYTHING... YOU
WOULD LEAVE COLLEGE IF YOU FOUND
A HUSBAND, BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T
NEED TO GET AN EDUCATION BECAUSE
YOU WERE GOING TO BECOME HIS
WIFE AND THEN YOU WERE GOING TO
BE A HOMEMAKER.
BUT NOW WE HAVE... SO THE
ECONOMICS HAVE CHANGED.
WE ARE, YOU KNOW, BREAKING GLASS
CEILINGS EVERYWHERE.
WE ARE GETTING OUR OWN
EDUCATION; WE ARE GETTING OUR
OWN JOBS, SO WE FINANCIALLY CAN
TAKE CARE OF OURSELVES.
AND I THINK, ALSO, WE HAVE CHOICES.
I THINK IT'S NOT JUST MEN... NOT
JUST WOMEN AND OUR CHANGE IN THE
WORKFORCE, BUT ALSO WE
UNDERSTAND THAT WE DON'T HAVE TO
DO WHAT OUR PARENTS DID.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO LIVE THIS
LIFESTYLE.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO HIDE IF YOU'RE
GAY IN A CLOSET AND MARRY
SOMEBODY AND PRETEND TO BE THIS
PERSON.
YOU CAN LIVE YOUR AUTHENTIC
LIFE.
AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE'RE
SEEING.
AND, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF MY
FRIENDS CAME FROM... LIKE MY
PARENTS ARE STILL MARRIED, BUT A
LOT OF MY FRIENDS CAME FROM
SINGLE-PARENT HOMES, SO THEY
DON'T HAVE... SOME OF THEM HAVE
THIS, YOU KNOW, DREAM OF HAVING
THIS WONDERFUL TWO-PARENT HOME
WITH THE TWO KIDS, BUT A LOT OF
THEM ARE LIKE, "YOU KNOW WHAT,
I SAW THAT; I LIVED THROUGH
THAT; AND IT WAS HORRIBLE;
AND I WOULDN'T WANT TO PUT A
CHILD THROUGH THAT OR PUT
MYSELF THROUGH THAT, SO I'M JUST
GOING TO DO MY OWN THING,
BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE SOME KIND
OF, YOU KNOW, FANTASY OF
MARRIED LIFE.
I KNOW THE REALITY OF IT."

Nam says WHAT ABOUT THE STIGMA?
IS THERE STILL A STIGMA FOR
WOMEN NOT TO BE MARRIED AND HAVE
CHILDREN AND TO BE IN A
RELATIONSHIP?

KELLI SAYS OH, ABSOLUTELY.
YEAH, I THINK THAT... IT'S FUNNY,
BECAUSE WE DO HAVE ALL
THIS CHOICE...

ANDREA SAYS YEAH...

The caption changes to "Kelli Maria Korducki, @kelkord."

Kelli says AND WE DO... WE'RE ENCOURAGED TO
PURSUE OUR CHOICES AND TO,
YOU KNOW, CHASE OUR DREAMS.
BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THERE IS,
ESPECIALLY FOR WOMEN, THIS KIND
OF EXPECTATION THAT IT'S WHAT WE
SHOULD WANT.

ANDREA SAYS HMM.

Kelli says THAT, LIKE, UNLESS THERE'S
SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOU...

ANDREA SAYS YEAH...

Kelli says YOU SHOULD REALLY WANT TO BE
IN A RELATIONSHIP AND SETTLE
DOWN AND HAVE KIDS MORE THAN
ANYTHING ELSE.

ANDREA SAYS YEAH.

Kelli says AND IF YOU ARE, SAY, I DON'T
KNOW 30, 35, WHATEVER, AND YOU
HAVEN'T TICKED OFF THOSE BOXES,
THEN THERE'S SOMETHING DEFICIENT.

ANDREA SAYS YEAH.

Nam says AND IN YOUR BOOK TOO, YOU... THERE
ARE SO MANY THINGS THAT I
LEARNED THAT I HAD NEVER EVEN
ACTUALLY THOUGHT ABOUT.
YOU MENTIONED BEFORE YOU WOULD
GO FROM THE FAMILY TO YOUR
OWN HOME.
BUT YOU DETAIL, YOU KNOW, YOU
USED TO BE CALLED ON.

Kelli says YEAH.

NAM SAYS AND THEN HOW THE INDUSTRY
OF DATING, WHICH I'VE NEVER
THOUGHT OF AS AN INDUSTRY, BUT IT IS.
YOU BUY MAKEUP; YOU BUY NEW
CLOTHES; YOU GO TO
THE RESTAURANT.
CAN YOU BRIEFLY TELL US WHAT
YOU'VE LEARNED ABOUT THE HISTORY
OF DATING IN YOUR RESEARCH?

The caption changes to "The history of dating."

Kelli says ABSOLUTELY.
SO YEAH, WHEN... LIKE THE 19TH
CENTURY... IN THE OLDEN DAYS... YOU WOULD GET CALLED ON IF YOU
WERE A WOMAN.
A MAN WOULD GET IN TOUCH WITH
YOUR FAMILY, COME OVER TO YOUR
HOUSE, HAVE SOME TEA IN THE
PARLOUR.
YOUR PARENTS WOULD BE AROUND.
YOUR BROTHER AND SISTER WOULD BE
AROUND.
THE DOG WOULD BE SITTING
SOMEWHERE.
LIKE, IT WOULD BE KIND OF A
FAMILY THING.
AND THEN WHEN WOMEN MOVED INTO
THE CITIES AND GOT JOBS,
DATING KIND OF EMERGED.
AND ACTUALLY, THE FIRST USE OF
THE WORD "DATE" IS RECORDED IN
THE 1890S, AND IT WAS KIND OF
LIKE A WORKING CLASS
SLANG THING.
BUT DATING HAPPENED IN THE
PUBLIC SPHERE.
IT WAS... WOMEN WERE PURCHASING
THINGS TO MAKE THEMSELVES LOOK
NICE, AND THEN OUT ON THE TOWN
AND MAYBE LIKE BUYING DINNER OR
A SODA OR A MOVIE.
SO, IT REALLY BECAME THIS VERY
COMMERCIAL CONSUMPTION
ENTERPRISE.

Nam says AND IT'S NOW OBVIOUSLY MOVED TO
SOMETHING THAT YOU WRITE ABOUT.
YOU KNOW, YOU JUST KIND OF SWIPE.
YOU JUST DO THAT.

ANDREA SAYS YEAH.

Nam says ANDREA, DO YOU THINK ONLINE AND
APP DATING HAS MADE IT MORE
DIFFICULT TO FIND A LONG-TERM PARTNER?

Andrea says YES AND NO, BECAUSE... YES, THERE
ARE 40 MILLION PEOPLE USING
ONLINE DATING APPS.
LIKE, THAT'S A LOT OF PEOPLE.

NAM SAYS AND IT'S A BIG INDUSTRY AS
WELL.

Andrea says AND IT'S A HUGE BILLION-DOLLAR
INDUSTRY, PREYING ON PEOPLE'S
LIKE INSECURITY OF LIKE GROWING
OLD ALONE.
BUT ONLINE DATING HAS MADE IT
EASIER, I THINK, IN A WAY,
BECAUSE NOW YOU HAVE MORE
CHOICES.
IF YOU'RE AN INTROVERT OR
PERHAPS YOU'RE A VERY BUSY
PERSON, NOW YOU CAN JUST HAVE
THIS APP, AND EVERYTHING IS ON
OUR PHONE, RIGHT...
WHERE YOU CAN MEET SOMEBODY
AND SET UP YOURSELF FOR A COUPLE
DATES IN A WEEK, IN A MONTH,
HOWEVER OFTEN YOU WANT TO
LIKE... HOWEVER MUCH TIME YOU WANT
TO INVEST INTO DATING, YOU CAN
DO IT.
AT THE SAME TIME, THERE IS THE
BACKLASH WHERE NOW PEOPLE HAVE
TOO MANY CHOICES.
SO NO ONE'S REALLY GOING... AS
OPPOSED TO THE TIME WHERE A
YOUNG MAN CAME OVER AND SAT DOWN
WITH YOUR FAMILY AND THE DOG IN
THE PARLOUR... NOW THIS GUY'S LIKE, "LISTEN,
I DON'T REALLY HAVE TIME FOR
THAT BECAUSE I ALREADY HAVE LIKE
FOUR OTHER MATCHES THAT I COULD
MEET TONIGHT AND TALK TO."
SO, PEOPLE... THE ATTENTION SPAN
IS NOT THERE.

NAM SAYS AND DO WOMEN HAVE THE SAME
CHOICES AS MEN?
OR LIKE... WE'RE SPEAKING ABOUT
HETEROSEXUAL RELATIONSHIPS.

Andrea says YEAH, I THINK SO.

NAM SAYS YEAH.

Andrea says I THINK IT'S... I REALLY THINK
IT'S ATTITUDE.
I THINK THE MEN HAVE A BETTER
ATTITUDE ABOUT DATING, AND LIKE
THINKING THAT THERE ARE LOTS OF
OPTIONS OUT THERE, AS OPPOSED
TO WOMEN.
A LOT OF WOMEN HAVE A VERY
NEGATIVE ATTITUDE ABOUT DATING
PROSPECTS.
THEY'RE LIKE, "THERE ARE NO MEN
HERE."
AND IT'S LIKE, "THE CITY HAS
FIVE MILLION PEOPLE.
TRUST ME, THERE'S SOMEBODY."
SO, I THINK THE ATTITUDE
CHANGES.
BUT IT HAS CHANGED BECAUSE WE
HAVE ALL OF THESE OPTIONS,
AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO SETTLE
DOWN.
OR IF SOMEONE JUST KIND OF
ANNOYS YOU A LITTLE BIT, YOU CAN
JUST BE LIKE, "YOU KNOW WHAT,
LET ME JUST GO BACK ON THIS APP
AND SWIPE AND FIND SOMEBODY
ELSE."
SO, IT IS A LITTLE BIT... IT IS A
LITTLE BIT MORE DIFFICULT.

Nam says BUT THERE'S... THIS IDEA OF
GETTING MARRIED AND HAVING
CHILDREN IS STILL REALLY
STRONG...

ANDREA SAYS YEAH...

Nam says DESPITE DEMOGRAPHICS OF THE
CONTRARY.
KELLI, WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

The caption changes to "Domesticity reigns."

Kelli says BECAUSE OUR SOCIETY IS SET UP TO
PRIVILEGE THAT.
AND ALSO, REALLY FRANKLY, IT'S
THE WAY THAT IT'S ALWAYS BEEN.
YOU KNOW, IT'S REALLY DIFFICULT
TO KNOW WHAT... WHAT
SOMETHING... WHAT AN ALTERNATIVE
WOULD LOOK LIKE WHEN YOU DON'T
HAVE ANY MODELS.
AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE MY
AGE ARE SORT OF TRYING TO FIGURE
OUT WHAT THEY WANT THEIR MODELS
TO BE.
AND MAYBE MODELLING THEMSELVES
AS THE MODELS.
SO... BUT THAT'S THE
REASON, I THINK.

Nam says AND, ANDREA, WHY DO YOU THINK
THAT IS, THAT WE STILL HAVE LIKE
THIS BAR... YOU STILL... PEOPLE
STILL STRIVING FOR THE MILESTONE
OF MARRIAGE OR PARTNERSHIP WITH
CHILDREN?

The caption changes to "Andrea Bain, @AndreaMBain."

Andrea says WELL, I THINK... EVEN THOUGH I
WROTE THIS BOOK, I THINK A LOT
OF PEOPLE THINK THAT I'M
ANTI-MARRIAGE, ANTI-CHILDREN,
AND I AM PRO ALL OF THOSE
THINGS.
I THINK IT'S... I THINK MARRIAGE
AND CHILDREN CAN BE A... THE BEST
THING YOU'VE EVER DONE TO YOUR
LIFE, TO MEET SOMEBODY WHO YOU
REALLY HAVE A CONNECTION WITH,
AND FOR THE BOTH OF YOU TO BE ON
THE SAME PAGE AND CREATE YOUR
FAMILY I THINK IS BEAUTIFUL.
AND THEREFORE, I TOTALLY
UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE STILL WANT
TO DO IT.
BUT THE REALITY AND WHAT I KIND
OF WHAT TO WANT TELL PEOPLE IS:
IT'S NOT THE ONLY CHOICE.

Nam says WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT CHOICES,
BECAUSE I THINK PEOPLE OFTEN
THINK THAT WOMEN CHOOSE CAREER
OVER FAMILY, OR FAMILY
OVER CAREER.
BUT ARE THOSE THE ONLY TWO
CHOICES THAT WE HAVE?

[KELLI SIGHS]

Andrea says THAT'S SUCH A TOUGH ONE.
THAT'S A REALLY TOUGH QUESTION.
THAT IS A TOUGH QUESTION.
BECAUSE I THINK IT DEPENDS ON
THE CAREER PATH THAT YOU CHOOSE.
I THINK CERTAIN CAREER PATHS
MAKE IT A LITTLE BIT MORE
CHALLENGING FOR WOMEN TO BALANCE
FAMILY AND WORK.
I KNOW THAT I WORK IN
TELEVISION; MY SISTER'S
A LAWYER.
THESE ARE TWO VERY DEMANDING
CAREER PATHS THAT DON'T ALWAYS
FAVOUR WOMEN WHO WANT TO TAKE
TIME OFF TO GO RAISE
THEIR CHILDREN.
I KNOW A LOT OF WOMEN ARE VERY
INSECURE... WOMEN WHO HAVE THOSE
TYPES OF JOBS ARE VERY INSECURE
ABOUT LEAVING FOR THEIR
MAT LEAVE.
HERE IN CANADA, WE HAVE A WHOLE
YEAR.
I KNOW A LOT OF WOMEN WHO WILL
NOT TAKE THE YEAR, NOT BECAUSE
THEY DON'T WANT TO, IT'S JUST
THEY FEEL TOO INSECURE ABOUT
LOSING THEIR JOB BECAUSE IT'S
TOO LONG TO BE AWAY FROM
YOUR... FROM YOUR JOB.
SO THEY TAKE SIX WEEKS, THEY
TAKE THREE MONTHS, AND THEN THEY
QUICKLY FIND THEMSELVES BACK AT
WORK.
AND THAT'S ALL OUT OF
INSECURITY.
THEY WOULD LOVE TO STAY FOR A
YEAR, BUT NOT EVERYBODY
HAS THAT.
SO YEAH, THAT'S A HUGE FACTOR.
BUT AGAIN, IT DEPENDS ON WHAT
YOU DO FOR A LIVING.

Nam says WHAT IMPACT, KELLI, DID YOU
THINK... DO YOU THINK THAT THE
AVAILABILITY OF DIVORCE, HOW IT
CHANGED THIS IDEA OF
DOMESTIC BLISS?

Kelli says WELL, CERTAINLY GAVE PEOPLE THE
IDEA THAT IF YOU'RE NOT HAPPY,
IF THE SITUATION ISN'T WORKING
FOR YOU, THEN PERHAPS YOU SHOULD
RECONSIDER THE FOREVER.

NAM SAYS AND IT'S RECENT, RIGHT,
BECAUSE YOU WROTE ABOUT IT.
I THINK RONALD REAGAN... CAN YOU
TELL US ABOUT THAT?

Kelli says SURE.

NAM SAYS YEAH.

Kelli says SO RONALD REAGAN, WHEN HE WAS
THE GOVERNOR OF THE STATE OF
CALIFORNIA, HE REINTRODUCED THE
NO FAULT DIVORCE INTO THE
UNITED STATES.
CALIFORNIA WAS THE FIRST STATE
TO HAVE IT, AND...

NAM SAYS 1969, RIGHT?

Kelli says '69 WAS WHEN HE APPROVED IT, AND
THEN IT WENT INTO EFFECT ON
JANUARY 1ST OF '71.
SO, YOU KNOW, NOT THAT...

NAM SAYS HOW DID THAT CHANGE THINGS
FOR...

Kelli says NOT THAT LONG AGO.

NAM SAYS IT'S NOT.

Kelli says IT ESTABLISHED AT LEAST THE
INKLING OF THE IDEA THAT YOU
COULD LEAVE A RELATIONSHIP AS A
WOMAN, ON THE GROUNDS OF
UNHAPPINESS, ON THE GROUNDS OF
INCOMPATIBILITY, THAT IT DIDN'T
NEED TO BE A MATTER OF ABUSE.
AND BEFORE THEN, YOU NEEDED TO
CITE... IN ORDER TO GET DIVORCED,
ONE NEEDED TO CITE BASICALLY
SAYING THAT WAS
SOMEBODY'S FAULT.
EITHER LIKE EMOTIONAL OR
PHYSICAL ABUSE.
SO THAT'S A HUGE CHANGE, AND
VERY SYMBOLIC IN ITS EFFECT.

Nam says AND I THINK A LOT OF
PEOPLE... WELL, I WAS SURPRISED TO
KNOW IT WAS SO RECENT.

KELLI SAYS VERY RECENT.

ANDREA SAYS YEAH.

Nam says 1969, YOU KNOW?
WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT
SEX AND
THE CITY,
BECAUSE I THINK... I
THINK YOU WERE YOUNGER WHEN IT
CAME OUT...
OUT, I THINK IT WAS A SHOW THAT
BROKE A LOT OF GROUND BECAUSE IT
TACKLED TABOO TOPICS, AND ALSO
TALKED ABOUT SOMETHING THAT WE
ARE PROBABLY TALKING ABOUT
RIGHT NOW.
SO, I JUST WANT TO SHOW YOU THE
CLIP, AND THEN WE'LL TALK
ABOUT IT.
SHELDON, CAN YOU PLEASE ROLL?

A clip from the TV show Sex and the City plays.

In the clip, a man and a woman sit at a long table in a meeting room. Both wear suits and look through papers.

The man SAYS So it's JUST YOU?

The woman says YEAH, JUST ME.

The man says CHECK THE "SINGLE WOMAN" BOX, AND INITIAL.
AND THE DOWNPAYMENT IS COMING
FROM YOUR FATHER?

The woman signs a form.

Then, she says NO, JUST ME.

Then at dinner, with three female friends, she annoyedly says
I'M TELLING YOU, IF I WAS A
SINGLE MAN, NONE OF THIS WOULD
BE HAPPENING.

A blond friend says
IF YOU WERE A SINGLE MAN, I'D
DATE YOU.

The woman says
I'VE GOT THE MONEY; I'VE GOT A
GREAT JOB; AND I STILL GET,
"IT'S JUST YOU?"

A curly-haired friend SAYS NO, THEY'RE THREATENED.
BUYING A PLACE ALONE MEANS YOU
DON'T NEED A MAN.

The woman says
I DON'T.

A brunette friend says
EVERYONE NEEDS A MAN.
THAT'S WHY I RENT.
IF YOU OWN AND HE STILL RENTS,
THEN THE POWER STRUCTURE IS
ALL OFF.
IT'S EMASCULATING.
MEN DON'T WANT A WOMAN WHO'S TOO
SELF-SUFFICIENT.

The blond friend says
I'M SORRY, DID SOMEONE JUST
ORDER A VICTORIAN STRAIGHT UP?

The clip ends.
Nam and her guests laugh.

Andrea says I WATCHED THAT SHOW RELIGIOUSLY,
BY THE WAY.

NAM SAYS IT'S HARD TO BELIEVE THAT
THAT WAS 20 YEARS AGO.

ANDREA SAYS I KNOW.

KELLI SAYS YEAH.

Nam says BUT ARE MEN STILL INTIMIDATED BY
INDEPENDENT, HOME-OWNING WOMEN?
I MEAN, I KNOW YOU WRITE ABOUT
THIS IN YOUR BOOK, ANDREA.

The caption changes to "Women, work, and money."

Andrea says I THINK THAT MEN WHO ARE NOT
SECURE WITHIN THEMSELVES ARE.
I DON'T THINK ALL MEN ARE
THREATENED BY WOMEN WHO HAVE
THEIR OWN STUFF GOING ON.
BUT I THINK IF YOU'RE AN
INSECURE PERSON AND YOU MEET
SOMEBODY WHO HAS ALL THEIR STUFF
TOGETHER, YOU ARE GOING TO FEEL
VERY INSECURE.
AND A LOT OF YOUNG MEN WERE
RAISED IN FAMILIES WHERE THE
FATHER KNEW EVERYTHING, AND HE
DID ALL THE DRIVING AND HE PAID
ALL THE BILLS.
SO ALL OF A SUDDEN TO MEET A
WOMAN WHO'S DOING ALL OF THOSE
THINGS, SOME GUYS DON'T QUITE
KNOW HOW TO HANDLE THAT WOMAN.
BUT I DON'T THINK THAT'S ALL
MEN.
I REALLY DON'T THINK THAT'S ALL
MEN.
BUT THAT SHOW,
SEX AND THE
CITY,
IS SO INTERESTING.
LIKE, I WATCHED THAT SHOW, AND
IT WAS THE BEST THING.
LIKE, I COULDN'T WAIT TO WATCH
EVERY EPISODE.
AND NOW WHEN I WATCH IT BACK,
I'M A LITTLE DISAPPOINTED IN
SOME OF THE WAY THAT THE
CHARACTERS ALL KIND OF... AT THE
END, EVERYBODY JUST KIND OF
SUBSCRIBES TO THE SAME THING,
EXCEPT FOR SAMANTHA... WHERE IT'S LIKE SHE STILL
WANTS TO MARRY BIG, THIS
EMOTIONALLY UNAVAILABLE GUY WHO
LEAVES HER AT THE ALTAR.
AND IT'S STILL LIKE... EVERYBODY'S
LIKE, "YEAH, BUT JUST MARRY..."
LIKE IT'S...

Nam says BECAUSE THE OTHER CHARACTERS
CHOOSE CHILDREN OR MARRIAGE...
AND SAMANTHA CHOSE HERSELF.

Andrea says AND SAMANTHA'S THE ONLY ONE WHO
BREAKS UP WITH SOMEBODY WHO'S
JUST LIKE, "THERE'S NOTHING
WRONG WITH THE RELATIONSHIP,
BUT I JUST DON'T FEEL GREAT
ABOUT IT."
BUT ALL THE OTHER CHARACTERS,
YOU KNOW, FOR BETTER OR FOR
WORSE, END UP CHASING THAT RING
LIKE GOLLUM, SO IT'S...

[NAM LAUGHS]

Nam says FROM LORD OF THE RINGS?

ANDREA SAYS RIGHT?
IT'S THE TRUTH, WHERE IT'S LIKE
EVEN IF HE LEAVES YOU AND
EMBARRASSES YOU, STILL, THIS IS
THE BEST THING THAT COULD EVER
HAPPEN TO YOU, SO GIVE IN TO
WHATEVER IT IS THAT HE WANTS
JUST SO YOU CAN BE "HAPPY."
SO, IT'S INTERESTING TO LOOK
BACK ON THAT SHOW.

Nam says KELLI, YOU'VE SAID THAT YOUR
GENERATION IS CONNECTING GENDER
ROLES, THE NATURE OF
PARTNERSHIPS, AND EMPLOYMENT,
AND HOW THEY ALL FEED ONE
ANOTHER.
CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT, PLEASE?

Kelli says YEAH.
WELL, IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE SO MUCH
OF THE WAY THAT DOMESTIC
PARTNERSHIPS ARE STRUCTURED,
LIKE MARRIAGE AND RELATIONSHIPS,
THEY RELY ON THIS LIKE
OLD-SCHOOL TRADITIONAL MODEL,
RIGHT... OF LIKE VERY ORDER... AN ORDER
OF A VICTORIAN, AS SAMANTHA
SAID IN THAT CLIP.
AND MY GENERATION IS BEGINNING
TO KIND OF QUESTION THOSE
BOUNDARIES, QUESTION THOSE
ROLES.
AND ALSO, WE HAVE KIND OF A
DIFFERENT WORK SITUATION THAN
PEOPLE OLDER THAN US.
I GRADUATED INTO THE RECESSION,
AND I'M 32, SO THE MILLENNIALS
WHO ARE EVEN YOUNGER THAN ME
GRADUATED INTO A
PRECARIOUS WORKFORCE.
AND SO, NOT A LOT OF
CERTAIN... NOT A LOT IS STABLE,
AND IN A WAY, THAT'S GIVEN US
THE FREEDOM TO KIND OF REINVENT
THE WHEEL AND DECIDE WHAT WILL
WORK FOR US, AND HOW TO PERHAPS
COLLECTIVELY ARRIVE AT THE KIND
OF LIFE THAT WE WANT.
AND IN MANY INSTANCES, THE LIKE
MAN, WOMAN, HOUSE,
MARRIAGE, KIDS... THAT JUST DOESN'T EVEN MAKE LOGISTICAL SENSE.

The caption changes to "From stigma to acceptance."

NAM SAYS WHAT ABOUT POLICY?
BECAUSE I THINK WHEN WE HEAR
FROM POLITICIANS...
YOU ALWAYS HEAR ABOUT THE
FAMILY HOUSEHOLD,
THE MIDDLE-CLASS FAMILY, BUT YOU
RARELY HEAR ABOUT THE
SINGLE-PERSON HOUSEHOLD.
DO YOU THINK THAT POLITICIANS
NEED TO START PAYING ATTENTION
TO THIS DEMOGRAPHIC?

ANDREA SAYS UH, YEAH.
I WRITE ABOUT THAT SPECIFICALLY
IN THE BOOK, WHERE WE ARE KIND
OF JUST IGNORED AND PUSHED TO
THE BACK AND NO ONE
REALLY... LIKE, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT
COMES TO MARKETING LIKE ALL
KINDS OF STUFF.
LIKE, WE BUY HOUSES; WE BUY
CARS; WE'RE THE AUNTIE WHO CAN
COME AND BUY A REALLY NICE
EXPENSIVE PRESENT BECAUSE WE
HAVE ALL THAT EXTRA MONEY...

NAM SAYS AND YOU VOTE.

Andrea says AND WE VOTE!
WE MOST DEFINITELY VOTE.
IN THE LAST PRESIDENTIAL
ELECTION IN THE U.S., SINGLE
WOMEN WERE THE MOST POTENT
GROUP.
THEY'RE THE ONES WHO DECIDED.
THERE WAS A HUGE SHOWING OF
SINGLE WOMEN WHO VOTED.
SO, IT'S VERY INTERESTING
THAT... AND EVEN IN THE REAL
ESTATE MARKET.
LIKE IN NEW YORK, TORONTO, AND
CHICAGO, SINGLE WOMEN ARE THE
LEADING BUYERS OF BRAND NEW
HOMES.
BUT STILL, WE'RE NOT REALLY
TAKEN SERIOUSLY.
NO ONE REALLY... WE'RE NOT AT THE
FOREFRONT OF CONVERSATIONS.
WE'RE THERE A LITTLE BIT, BUT IT
IS VERY INTERESTING THAT WE HAVE
ALL THIS... EDUCATION-WISE, WE'RE
VERY HIGHLY EDUCATED.
FINANCIALLY, WE'RE, YOU KNOW,
VERY SMART WITH OUR MONEY.
BETTER THAN THE MEN.
THAT'S STATISTICS.
THAT'S JUST NOT MY OPINION.
I DON'T WANT ANYBODY TO GET
UPSET.
AND STILL, I DON'T FEEL LIKE
WE'RE EVER REALLY AT THE TABLE
OR TAKEN SERIOUSLY OR TALKED
ABOUT IN A REALLY... IN A SERIOUS
WAY AS A GROUP, WHICH IS
INTERESTING.

Kelli says YEAH.

NAM SAYS WHAT DO YOU THINK, KELLI?

Kelli says WELL, I THINK PART OF THAT ALSO
HAS TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT I
DON'T THINK A LOT OF SINGLE
WOMEN REALIZE HOW COMMON THEIR
SITUATION IS.
LIKE, I DON'T KNOW IF...
IF PEOPLE ARE AWARE THAT
THEY'RE NOT AN ANOMALY.
AND I CERTAINLY... LIKE WHEN I WAS
GOING THROUGH MY BREAKUP THAT I
WROTE THE BOOK ABOUT, LIKE, I
DIDN'T REALIZE KIND OF THAT I
WASN'T THIS FREAK OF NATURE.
SO I THINK...

NAM SAYS SO THERE'S A LACK OF ROLE
MODELS, OR...

Kelli says WELL, A LACK OF ROLE MODELS, AND
ALSO JUST LIKE I DON'T REALLY
THINK THAT WE'RE VOICING OUR
EXISTENCE QUITE LOUDLY ENOUGH...
IN A WAY THAT WOULD GET THE
POLITICIANS TO LISTEN.
AND NOT TO SAY THAT IT'S ALL ON US.
ABSOLUTELY NOT.
BUT... AND I SHOULD CLARIFY THAT
I'M NOT... I'M IN A RELATIONSHIP
BUT I'M NOT MARRIED.
SO, SINGLE IS LIKE... MEH.
BUT, YEAH, I THINK THAT WE NEED
TO BE A LITTLE BIT LOUDER ABOUT
OUR EXISTENCE TOO.

Andrea says I DON'T... HERE'S THE DEAL: I KIND OF DISAGREE.
I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD BE LOUDER.
I THINK THEY SHOULD JUST HAVE
THE COMMON SENSE AND TO PAY
ATTENTION TO IT.
EVERY COMPANY, IF YOU ARE
SELLING SOMETHING, YOU HAVE TO
PAY ATTENTION TO YOUR GROUP,
YOUR FOCUS GROUP.
WHO ARE YOU TRYING TO TARGET?
AND YOU SHOULD KNOW, AND YOU
SHOULD BE PAYING ATTENTION TO
THE FACT THAT, "WOW, THERE'S
THIS HUGE GROUP WITH A LOT OF
MONEY TO SPEND, AND THEY'RE
REALLY FINANCIALLY SAVVY.
WE SHOULD BE PAYING MORE
ATTENTION TO THEM."
WHY SHOULD WE HAVE TO STOMP OUR
FEET AND BE LIKE, "PAY ATTENTION
TO US.
WE WANT TO SPEND MORE MONEY.
WE WANT TO BE." WE SHOULDN'T
HAVE TO DO THAT.
IF WE WERE TALKING ABOUT
ANYTHING ELSE... IF WE WERE
TALKING ABOUT SPORTS, PEOPLE WHO
CATER TO THAT GROUP KNOW EVERY
SINGLE THING ABOUT THAT
DEMOGRAPHIC, SO WHY DO... WHY
SHOULD WE HAVE TO RAISE OUR
VOICES AND LIKE MARCH DOWN THE
STREET FOR THEM TO PAY ATTENTION?
THEY SHOULD JUST BE PAYING
ATTENTION.

KELLI SAYS YEAH, FOR SURE.
BUT ALSO I WILL SAY THAT... SO, I
WORK FOR A WOMEN'S LIFESTYLE
DIGITAL MAGAZINE, AND IT'S FUNNY
BECAUSE OUR READERSHIP IS
BASICALLY MY DEMOGRAPHIC:
MILLENNIAL WOMEN, VERY EDUCATED,
LIVING IN CITIES, AND LARGELY
UNMARRIED, ACTUALLY... AND LARGELY CHILDLESS, BASED
ON THE AUDIENCE INSIGHTS THAT
WE HAVE.
AND YET, THE STORIES THAT
PERFORM THE BEST WOULD NOT
INDICATE THAT THAT'S THE CASE.
WHICH IS WHY I'M SORT OF
THINKING LIKE, YOU KNOW,
"MAYBE WE NEED TO NORMALIZE OUR
EXISTENCE.
MAYBE THERE ARE STILL PEOPLE WHO
ARE LIVING OUR REALITY... WHO DON'T REALIZE THAT THEY'RE
THE NEW NORMAL, THAT THIS
ASPIRATIONAL IDEA OF THE FOREVER
AFTER THAT THEY'RE STILL KIND OF
LIKE CHASING ISN'T ACTUALLY LIKE
THE DEFAULT," SO.

NAM SAYS RIGHT.
THERE'S A NEW WAY TO BE A FAMILY.

KELLI SAYS YEAH.

Nam says EVEN IF IT'S A FAMILY OF ONE.

ANDREA SAYS YEAH.

The caption changes to "Producer: Carla Lucchetta, @carrletta."

Nam says WELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR
BEING HERE.
I MEAN, I COULD TALK ABOUT THIS
FOR A LONG TIME.

[KELLI CHUCKLES]

NAM SAYS AND, KELLI, THIS IS YOUR
FIRST TELEVISION PROGRAM...

Kelli says IT IS, YEAH.

NAM SAYS SO I THINK YOU WERE
FANTASTIC.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING ON
THE SHOW.

Kelli says THANKS SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

NAM SAYS AND, ANDREA, THANKS FOR THE
LAUGHS IN THE BOOK.

Andrea says ANYTIME.

NAM SAYS AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT A
PROBLEM TO BE SINGLE.
THANK YOU.

[LAUGHS]

Watch: Unconventional Women