Transcript: Affording Housing in Ontario | May 24, 2018

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and striped red and pink tie.

A caption on screen reads "Affording housing in Ontario."
Then, it changes to "Ontario 2018 election."

Steve says HOME IS NOT JUST WHERE
YOU HANG YOUR HAT.
IT DEFINES MANY OTHER CHOICES IN
LIFE TOO: HOW FAR YOU COMMUTE,
WHERE YOUR KIDS GO TO SCHOOL,
AND FOR SOME, HOW MANY JOBS YOU
HAVE TO HOLD DOWN TO AFFORD IT.
ALL THE PARTIES ARE FACING
QUESTIONS AT THE DOOR ABOUT
HOUSING AFFORDABILITY.
WHAT DO THE EXPERTS THINK OF HOW
THEY'RE ANSWERING THOSE
QUESTIONS?
LET'S FIND OUT.
HERE ARE:
TIM HUDAK, CEO, OF THE ONTARIO
REAL ESTATE ASSOCIATION...

Tim is in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and striped purple tie.

Steve continues CHERISE BURDA, EXECUTIVE
DIRECTOR, RYERSON CITY BUILDING
INSTITUTE...

Cherise is in her early forties, with shoulder-length wavy blond hair and a nose piercing. She's wearing a black blazer and a white blouse.

Steve continues JOE VACCARO, CEO, ONTARIO HOME
BUILDERS' ASSOCIATION...

Joe is in his late thirties, with wavy black hair and a full beard. He's wearing glasses, a gray suit, white shirt, spotted blue tie, and a purple pin on his lapel.

Steve continues GREG SUTTOR, SENIOR RESEARCHER, WELLESLEY INSTITUTE...

Greg is in his sixties, clean-shaven, with short gray hair. He's wearing a gray suit, striped shirt, and patterned red tie.

Steve continues AND
SIMONE SWAIL, GOVERNMENT
RELATIONS MANAGER, CO-OPERATIVE
HOUSING FEDERATION OF CANADA...

Simone is in her thirties, with long, straight auburn hair. She's wearing a white blazer and black blouse.

Steve continues IT IS GREAT TO HAVE YOU FIVE
AROUND OUR TABLE HERE TONIGHT.
A COUPLE OF ITEMS OF BUSINESS
BEFORE WE START.
AS I ALWAYS DO, JOE, WHEN YOU'RE
ON THIS PROGRAM, IN THE
INTERESTS OF FULL DISCLOSURE, MY
BROTHER, JEFF, IS A MEMBER OF
YOUR ORGANIZATION, A BUILDER IN
THE HAMILTON-HALTON AREA.
AND WE SHOULD ALSO POINT OUT,
THIS IS THE FIRST TIME SINCE
1995 THAT A CERTAIN FELLOW NAMED
TIM HUDAK HASN'T HAD HIS NAME ON
AN ELECTION BALLOT.

Tim says THE MOST RELAXED I'VE BEEN
SINCE 1990.
A LITTLE BIT EASIER.

Steve says GOOD FOR YOU.
LET US PUT YOU TO WORK RIGHT
AWAY.
I WANT TO START WITH MILLENNIALS
AND AFFORDABLE HOUSING IN
ONTARIO.
TIM, IS IT REASONABLE IN THIS
DAY AND AGE FOR PEOPLE IN THEIR
EARLY 30S TO BE ABLE TO... TO
EXPECT TO BE ABLE TO BUY A HOUSE?

The caption changes to "Moving millennials in."

Tim says YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.
MAYBE NOT AS BIG OF A HOUSE AS
THEIR PARENTS HAVE, BUT IT'S ON
THE TABLE.
I KNOW EXPERTS WILL SAY THEY
WILL ONLY WANT TO RENT SHOE BOX
RENTALS IN THE SKY, SO WE ASKED
THEM.
WE SAID TO MILLENNIALS DO YOU
BELIEVE IN HOME OWNERSHIP, IS IT
A GOOD INVESTMENT AND DO YOU
WANT TO BE PART OF IT, AND OVER
81 percent SAID YES.
AND RIGHT NOW THE FIRST WAVE OF
MILLENNIALS ARE GETTING
PROMOTIONS.
THEY ARE LOOKING TO HAVE
FAMILIES, GET MARRIED, AND
LOOKING TO GET INTO THE HOUSING
MARKET.
IF WE DON'T ACT NOW AND START
BUILDING MORE SUPPLY, ABOUT
70,000 OF THEM WHO CAN'T FIND A
HOME AT ALL.

Steve says IS PART OF THE
SOLUTION HERE TO HAVE THEIR
PARENTS DIE TO LEAVE THEM MONEY
SO THEY CAN AFFORD TO BUY
SOMETHING?

Tim says WE DIDN'T POLL ON THAT ONE
PARTICULARLY, BUT LOOK,
MILLENNIALS ARE AT A STAGE WHERE
THEY ARE THE HIGHEST-EDUCATED
DEMOGRAPHIC IN THE HISTORY OF
OUR COUNTRY.
THEY ARE NOT MAKING AS MUCH AS
THEIR FOLKS DID BACK WHEN THEY
WERE AT THAT AGE, JUST THE WAY
THE ECONOMY IS, BUT THEY STILL
ASPIRE TO THAT GREAT CANADIAN
DREAM OF HOME OWNERSHIP.
IT'S JUST A BIT TOUGHER, SO WHAT
DO YOU DO ABOUT IT?
YOU GOT TO HELP GET DOWN THE
COSTS WHEN YOU'RE BUYING A HOME.
FOR EXAMPLE, LOWERING OR
ELIMINATING THE LAND TRANSFER
TAX FOR FIRST-TIME HOME BUYERS.
OTHER STATES AND PROVINCES LOOK
AT ASSISTANCE ON DOWN PAYMENTS
THAT YOU PAY BACK LATER ON.
INCREASING HOUSING SUPPLY, AND
MY COLLEAGUE CHERISE TALKS ABOUT
BUILDING MORE MIDDLE, PERFECT
FOR MILLENNIALS AND BABY BOOMERS
WHO ARE NOW EMPTY NESTERS WHO
WANT TO FIND IN THE CITY.

Steve says DO YOU AGREE THAT IT
SHOULD STILL BE A DREAM OF
MILLENNIALS, PEOPLE IN THEIR
LATE 20S, EARLY 30S, TO OWN A HOME?

The caption changes to "Cherise Burda. Ryerson City Building Institute."

Cherise says WELL, I THINK THAT THERE'S A
LOT OF PRESSURE ON MILLENNIALS
RIGHT NOW TO GO STRAIGHT FROM
LIVING WITH THEIR PARENTS TO
SUDDENLY OWNING A HOME, AND IN
PARTICULAR OWNING A DETACHED
HOME WITH A YARD.
I DON'T THINK THAT'S REALISTIC.
AND I THINK PART OF THE
CHALLENGE IS THAT TORONTO HAS
GOT ONE OF THE HIGHEST RATES OF
OWNERSHIP IN THE WORLD.
WE'RE THIRD ONLY TO CALGARY AND
TO OSLO.
AND THIS... I THINK THAT THERE'S
A LOT OF EXPECTATIONS TO OWN A
HOME RIGHT AWAY.
I THINK THAT HOME OWNERSHIP
SHOULD STILL BE SOMETHING THAT
WE STRIVE FOR LATER IN LIFE, BUT
I THINK THERE'S AN IN-BETWEEN
STAGE WHERE YOU CAN RENT, AND I
THINK THE RIGHT TYPE OF RENTAL
HOUSING SUPPLY IS REALLY
IMPORTANT FOR THAT AS WELL.
LOOK, I RENTED IN MY 20S, 30S
AND WELL INTO MY 40S, AND THEN I
WAS ABLE TO SAVE FOR MY FIRST
HOME IN MY 40S, SO I DON'T THINK
THAT WE SHOULD BE PUTTING THAT
TYPE OF PRESSURE IMMEDIATELY,
BUT WE NEED THAT RIGHT TYPE OF
MISSING MIDDLE SUPPLY, BOTH
RENTAL AND OWNERSHIP.

Steve says THERE'S GOING TO BE A
GENERATION OF PEOPLE WATCHING
THIS SAYING, WHAT, YOU WANT ME
TO WAIT UNTIL MY 40S BEFORE I
CAN OWN A HOME?

Cherise says THAT'S A LITTLE BIT LATE.
I MEAN, I DID WORK FOR
NON-PROFITS.

Steve says SPEAKING OF WHICH, WE
HAVE ONE RIGHT HERE.
WHAT... OKAY, RENTAL HOUSING IS
SOMETHING THAT CHERISE HAS PUT
ON THE TABLE AS A POSSIBLE
BRIDGE TO THAT MOMENT OF HOME
OWNERSHIP.
HOW ABOUT WHAT YOU DO?
ANOTHER PIECE OF THE PUZZLE?

The caption changes to "Simone Swail. Co-Operative Housing Federation of Canada."

Simone says ABSOLUTELY A PIECE OF THE PUZZLE.
COOPERATIVE HOUSING, WE SEE IT
AS A STEP IN-BETWEEN RENTAL AND
HOME OWNERSHIP.
IT'S A THIRD OPTION.
IT GIVES PEOPLE A SENSE OF
SECURITY, A SAY IN THEIR HOME.
YOU KNOW, YOU GET TO BE PART OF
A COMMUNITY THAT DECIDES FOR
ITSELF HOW IT WILL BE
MAINTAINED, WHAT WILL BE ADDED
TO IT.
YOU KNOW, HOW MUCH DO YOU NEED
TO INCREASE THE HOUSING CHARGES.
WHAT WE CALL RENT, TO MAKE SURE
THAT THE SUSTAINABLE, QUALITY
COMMUNITY WHERE EVERYBODY WORKS
TOGETHER FOR THE LONG TERM.

Steve says I SUSPECT THERE'S
STILL LOTS OF PEOPLE WATCHING US
RIGHT NOW WHO REALLY AREN'T
FAMILIAR WITH THE INS AND OUTS
OF CO-OP HOUSING, HOW IT ALL
WORKS.
GIVE US THE 30-SECOND SPEECH ON THAT.

Simone says SO HOW IT ALL WORKS.
SO WHAT IT IS IS MEMBERS OF THE
CO-OP, EVERY RESIDENT WHO LIVES
IN THE BUILDING OVER THE AGE OF
16, WE'RE DEMOCRATIC
COMMUNITIES, AND WHAT YOU DO IS
YOU GET TOGETHER AND THEY ELECT
A BOARD OF DIRECTORS, AND THEY
MAKE THE DECISIONS FOR THE
COMMUNITIES.
AND THIS CAME OUT OF INSPIRATION
FROM PAST HOUSING PROJECTS KIND
OF SEEING THAT PUBLIC HOUSING
KIND OF FAILED, BUT WE KNEW WE
NEEDED ANOTHER ALTERNATIVE TO
OFFER PEOPLE GOOD QUALITY HOMES
THAT THEY CAN ACTUALLY AFFORD
AND ARE REMAIN AFFORDABLE FOR
THE LONG TERM.

Steve says HAVING SAID THAT, YOU
KNOW EVERY BIT OF ANECDOTAL
EVIDENCE I HEAR, AND THERE'S THE
SURVEY TO POINT IT OUT AS WELL,
THIS NOTION OF HOME OWNERSHIP IS
A DREAM THAT DIES VERY HARD, NO
MATTER HOW YOUNG YOU ARE.
PEOPLE STILL WANT THIS.
JOE, I GOT TO ASK YOU, DO YOU
THINK IT'S REASONABLE IN THIS
DAY AND AGE FOR PEOPLE IN THEIR
EARLY 20S, MAYBE MID 20S, AFTER
THEY GET OUT OF UNIVERSITY, WITH
THE FIRST JOB, TO BUY A HOME?

The caption changes to "Joe Vaccaro. Ontario Home Builders' Association."

Joe says I THINK WHAT WE HAVE TO
APPRECIATE IS THAT ONTARIO IS
FULL OF HOME BELIEVERS, PEOPLE
BELIEVE IN THE DREAM OF
OWNERSHIP.
SO WHETHER YOU'RE A RENTER OR AN
EMPTY NESTER, THAT BELIEF OF
HOME OWNERSHIP IS LINKED BACK TO
HOW YOU CONNECT TO YOUR
COMMUNITY.
WHEN MY GRANDPARENTS CAME FROM
ITALY THEY WORKED HARD TO BUY A
HOUSE TO SAY WE'RE PART OF THIS
COMMUNITY, ESTABLISHED AND WE
WANT TO GIVE BACK.
I THINK THAT GETS PASSED ON.
WHETHER YOU'RE AN MILLENNIAL OR
EMPTY NESTER, THAT HOME BELIEF,
BEING A HOME BELIEVER IS A REAL
TANGIBLE REALITY.
SO THE QUESTION THEN BECOMES:
HOW DO WE BEST SERVICE THAT
ASPIRATIONAL DESIRE?
AND YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
I MEAN, YOU CAN START WITH CO-OP
HOUSING, RENTAL, ALL THE OPTIONS
NEED TO BE ON THE TABLE BECAUSE,
YOU KNOW, WE ARE BENEFITING FROM
AN UNBELIEVABLY GROWING REGION.
DEMAND IS INCREDIBLE.
WE'VE HAD 200,000 PLUS PEOPLE
JOIN THE REGION, SO I THINK
THERE'S A REAL OPPORTUNITY TO
TALK ABOUT ALL THESE OPTIONS,
BUT THE DREAM OF HOME OWNERSHIP
IS ALIVE AND WELL ACROSS THE PROVINCE.

Steve says LET ME FOLLOW UP ON THAT.
SHOULD WE CRUSH THAT ASPIRATION
OUT OF YOUNG PEOPLE'S MINDS AND
BASICALLY SAY TO THEM: LOOK, YOU
KNOW WHAT THE REALITY IS OF THE
ECONOMY TODAY, OF HOW MUCH MONEY
YOU'RE POTENTIALLY GOING TO BE
ABLE TO MAKE, HOW MUCH HOMES
WILL COST.
JUST FORGET ABOUT THAT DREAM FOR
A LONG TIME, PLEASE.

Joe says I WOULD SAY, BECAUSE WE'RE IN
A POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT, ANYONE
WHO WANTS TO CRUSH THAT DREAM
DOES IT AT THEIR OWN PERIL.
IT'S AN ASPIRATIONAL DREAM.
IT'S MORE IMPORTANT THAT WE
RECOGNIZE THAT IT'S AN
ASPIRATIONAL DREAM.
BE REALISTIC ABOUT IT, BUT ALSO
ASK THE QUESTIONS: WHAT'S THE
LEADERSHIP TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN NOW?
THAT'S THE GAP THAT NEEDS TO BE
FILLED NOW.
I'M NOT IN THE DREAM-CRUSHING
BUSINESS.

Steve says CAN YOU ACTUALLY WHILE
YOU'RE RENTING SAVE ENOUGH MONEY
FOR THAT EVENTUAL DOWN PAYMENT
ON A NEW HOME?

The caption changes to "Greg Suttor. Wellesley Institute."

Greg says IT'S A CHALLENGE, ISN'T IT?
SO MILLENNIALS ARE FACING
CHALLENGES THAT ARE GREATER THAN
MOST OF THE POPULATION, BUT THEY
ARE ALSO FACING A LOT OF ISSUES
IN COMMON WITH ALL THE REST OF
THE ONTARIO POPULATION, RIGHT?
WE HAD THIS HUGE SWING TO HOME
OWNERSHIP IN OUR HOME OWNERSHIP
REACHED 71 percent BY 2006, 2011, AND
NOW WE'VE HAD THIS SORT OF BIG
SWING BACK, AND IN THE LAST
FIVE, SEVEN YEARS, TWO THIRDS OF
THE ADDED HOUSEHOLDS HAVE BEEN
RENTERS, DUE TO THESE HIGH
PRICES.
AND SO WE NEED TO PUT
ATTENTION... THE ONTARIO
GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO GIVE ITS
ATTENTION TO THE RANGE OF
OPTIONS.
YES, ACCESS TO OWNERSHIP, BUT
ALSO GOOD RENTING OPTIONS FOR
THE ALMOST 30 percent OF ONTARIO
HOUSEHOLDS THAT RENT A HOME, AND
THAT INCLUDES THE ONE IN SIX
THAT CAN'T EASILY AFFORD MARKET
RENTS AND INCLUDES, YOU KNOW,
ONE IN SIX WHO THEY CAN AFFORD
MARKET RENTS, BUT WHAT KIND OF
OPTIONS ARE OUT THERE?
BASICALLY OLD POSTWAR RENTAL
BUILDINGS, UPMARKET, HARD TO
AFFORD RENTAL CONDOS.
SO MILLENNIALS ARE BEING
STRONGLY AFFECTED BY THIS KIND
OF SUPPLY-DEMAND CRUNCH, AND THE
LACK OF GOOD OPTIONS ACROSS THE
SECTOR.

Steve says ONE OF THE REASONS WE
WANTED YOU FIVE IN HERE TONIGHT
WAS BECAUSE LAST NIGHT ON THIS
PROGRAM WE HAD A BIT OF AN
ALL-CANDIDATES DEBATE WITH FOUR
PEOPLE WHO ARE RUNNING FOR THE
CURRENT ELECTION CAMPAIGN.
WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF THE
SEASON, AND WE WANTED TO PLAY
SNIPPETS OF THAT DEBATE FOR ALL
OF YOU DURING OUR TIME HERE
TOGETHER TONIGHT AND GET YOUR
FEEDBACK ON WHAT THEY HAD TO
SAY.
LET'S START WITH THE GUY WHO WAS
ACTUALLY STILL THE MINISTER OF
HOUSING IN THE PROVINCE OF
ONTARIO, SEEKING PERSONAL
RE-ELECTION IN ETOBICOKE
LAKESHORE.
HERE'S PETER MILCZYN.
GO.

A clip plays on screen with the caption "Peter Milczyn. Liberal Candidate, Etobicoke-Lakeshore."
In the clip, Peter talks in the studio. He's in his late forties, clean-shaven and shaven-headed.

He says WE INTRODUCED THE FAIR
HOUSING PLAN ABOUT A YEAR AND A
HALF AGO PRECISELY TO ADDRESS
ISSUES OF AFFORDABILITY, AND ON
THE OWNERSHIP SIDE, PUTTING IN
PLACE THE NON-RESIDENT
SPECULATION TAX, SIMILAR TO WHAT
WAS DONE IN B.C., A LITTLE BIT
DIFFERENT, WAS A KEY PART OF
THAT, WAS TO PULL OUT OF THE
MARKET TO THE EXTENT THAT THERE
WAS ABOUT 5.8 percent OF THE
TRANSACTIONS IN THE GTA WERE BY
NON-RESIDENT PEOPLE.
MANY OF THEM SPECULATING ON THE
INCREASE OF NEW HOME PRICES AND
EVEN RESALE HOMES.
SO IT BROUGHT THAT IN, AND WE'VE
SEEN IN THAT PERIOD OF TIME
THOSE NON-RESIDENT TRANSACTIONS
DROP FROM ABOUT 5.8 percent DOWN TO I
BELIEVE THE LAST FIGURE WAS ABOUT 3.4.

The clip ends.

Steve says SO THAT FOREIGN BUYER
SPECULATION TAX, TIM, WAS NUMBER
OF A NUMBER OF THINGS THAT THE
LIBERAL GOVERNMENT BROUGHT IN IN
ORDER TO DEAL WITH THE ON-FIRE
HOUSING MARKET, AND I WONDER IN
YOUR NEW NON-PARTISAN ROLE THAT
YOU WOULD HAVE.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO GIVE THEM A
LETTER GRADE, BUT TELL THEM WHAT
YOU THINK ABOUT THAT POLICY.

The caption changes to "Tim Hudak. Ontario Real Estate Association."
Then, it changes again to "Campaign platform."

Tim says WE DID GIVE THEM A LETTER
GRADE, A B +.
ON THE POSITIVE SIDE, AS PART OF
THAT HOUSING PLAN, AND YOU KNOW,
GIVE THEM CREDIT, I HAD CHATS
WITH THE MINISTER AND WE GOT TO
SIT DOWN WITH PREMIER WYNNE FOR
A GOOD AMOUNT OF TYPE.
THEY LISTENED TO SOME OF OUR
RECOMMENDATIONS THAT WE DID HAND
IN HAND.
YOU CAN MESS AROUND IN THE
MARGINS WITH TAXES AND STUFF
LIKE THAT.
IT'S A SUPPLY ISSUE.
WE HAVE MORE AND MORE PEOPLE
COMING IN.
THAT'S A GOOD THING.
DEMAND IS INCREASING.
NOT ENOUGH SUPPLY.
SO THEY DID ACT IN THAT AREA.
I DON'T BELIEVE YOU CAN TAX YOUR
WAY TO AFFORDABILITY.
I THINK THE MORE YOU RAISE TAXES
THE HIGHER PRICES WILL GO.
YOU'RE NOT TREATING THE LONG-END
PROBLEM AROUND SUPPLY.
THIRD, THE STRICT REGIME OF RENT
CONTROLS WE THINK IN THE SHORT
TERM PEOPLE WILL BE RELIEVED AND
IF THE RENT IS NOT GOING UP, BUT
IN THE LONG TERM THAT WILL BE
LESS SUPPLY ON THE RENTAL SIDE.
THAT MEANS THE MOST VULNERABLE
CAN'T GET HOUSING AT ALL, MAY BE
LEFT ON THE STREETS.

Steve says IS THERE ANYBODY
HERE... SHELDON, COULD WE GO TO
A WIDE SHOT HERE.
DOES ANYBODY HERE THINK IT'S A
GOOD IDEA TO REOPEN THE GREEN
BELT AND BUILD MORE PRODUCT IN
THE GREEN BELT, THE THEORY BEING
THERE'S MORE SUPPLY THEREFORE
THE PRICES MIGHT COME DOWN.

Joe says LET ME START. NO.

Steve says THE HEAD OF THE
DEVELOPER SAYS NO.

Joe says THERE'S PLENTY OF LAND WITHIN
CITY LIMITS TO BUILD.
THE CHALLENGE IS ONCE YOU
RECEIVE THE PLANNING APPROVAL,
YOU STILL NEED TO PUT A PIPE IN
THE GROUND AND BUILD THE ROAD.
IF YOU'VE BEEN WATCHING, THE
DELAY SEEMS TO BE IN THOSE
INFRASTRUCTURAL APPROVAL.
WE OFTEN HAVE THESE
CONVERSATIONS ABOUT GREEN BELT.
WE'RE GOING TO FOCUS ON THE ROAD
PLAN.
WE HAVE LOTS OF LAND IN THOSE
CITY LIMITS.
WE'RE NOT GETTING THE
INFRASTRUCTURE TO BRING THAT
DIRT TO A DOOR, AND SO THAT'S
OUR CHALLENGE.
SO WE SPEND A LOT OF TIME AFTER
WE FIND, OKAY, WE'RE GOING TO
BUILD HERE, THEN WE FIGHT ABOUT
WHAT WE'RE GOING TO BUILD.
IS THAT THE RIGHT PLACE TO PUT
THE PIPE?
THAT TAKES THREE, FOUR, FIVE,
SIX YEARS AND EVERYBODY LOOKS AT
EACH OTHER, WHY HAVEN'T YOU
STARTED BUILDING HOUSING YET?
YOU HAVEN'T GIVEN ME THE
INFRASTRUCTURE APPROVAL TO BUILD
SOMETHING OUT.
SO THAT'S THE FRUSTRATION.
SO AS CLEARLY AS I CAN SAY IT,
THERE'S LOTS OF LAND IN CITY
LIMITS.
LET'S JUST GET ON WITH THE
ACTUALLY BUILDING OF THE
INFRASTRUCTURE.

Steve says HAVING SAID THAT, I AM
CURIOUS ABOUT WHAT CHERISE BURDA
THOUGHT WHEN SHE SAW THIS
VIDEOTAPE OF SEEING DOUG FORD
SAYING WE'RE GOING TO OPEN UP
THE GREEN BELT AND THEN SHUT THE
DOOR ON IT.

The caption changes to "Cherise Burda, @CheriseBurda."

Cherise says I WAS ON MY WAY ON VACATION.
IT WAS GOOD TIMING.
BUT I DO FEEL THAT I'M HAPPY
THAT HE BACKPEDALLED ON THAT,
BECAUSE I THINK THAT MOST OF THE
LEADERS AND MOST PEOPLE
UNDERSTAND THAT THE GREEN BELT
IS NOT AN ISSUE AND THAT WE'RE
NOT BUMPING UP AGAINST THE GREEN
BELT.
THERE'S LOTS OF LAND AVAILABLE
TO BUILD GROUND-RELATED HOUSING
FOR YEARS TO COME.
BUT I THINK THAT IT'S REALLY
IMPORTANT THAT WE TALK ABOUT
BUILDING THE RIGHT SUPPLY.
I FEEL LIKE WE'RE BUILDING A
KIND OF TWO TYPES OF SUPPLY.
A LOT OF TALL CONDOS WITH SMALL
ONE-BEDROOMS IN CITY CENTRES,
AND WE'RE BUILDING... WE ARE
STILL BUILDING A LOT OF DETACHED
HOUSING MORE ON THE PERIPHERY IN
OUR FARMERS' FIELDS, AND IT'S
GETTING FURTHER AND FURTHER
AWAY, AND IT MEANS THAT PEOPLE
HAVE TO DRIVE TO QUALIFY FOR A
MORTGAGE AND YOU HAVE MORE
CONGESTION, MORE STALL.
AND THAT AS TIM MENTIONED AT THE
BEGINNING, WHAT WE'RE MISSING IS
THAT IN-BETWEEN HOUSING, BUT IF
WE JUST SIMPLY REDUCE RED TAPE,
IF WE SIMPLY LOOK AT ZONING OR
OFFERING INCENTIVES ACROSS THE
BOARD, WE'RE GOING TO END UP
WITH MORE OF THE TYPE OF HOUSING
THAT WE ALREADY HAVE, AND WE
NEED TO FOCUS OUR POLICIES AND
GET INNOVATIVE TO BUILD THAT
IN-BETWEEN MISSING MIDDLE
HOUSING IN SUBURBAN AND URBAN
LOCATIONS THAT ARE CLOSE TO
TRANSIT, JOBS, SCHOOLS AND
SERVICES.

The caption changes to "Comprehensive election coverage: tvo.org/OntarioElection."

Steve says I WANT TO ASK GREG, IN
HIS VIEW, WHAT THE LIBERAL
RECORD IS ON MAKING ALL OF THAT HAPPEN.

The caption changes to "Greg Suttor, @gfsuttor."

Greg says ON MAKING ALL OF THAT HAPPEN?
SO CLEARLY WE HAVE A
SUPPLY-DEMAND IMBALANCE, AND
THAT'S HELPED RAISE HOME
OWNERSHIP PRICES, BUT CLEARLY WE
HAVE A SHORTFALL OF RENTAL
HOUSING PRODUCTION, AND THAT HAS
LED TO A TIGHT RENTAL MARKET AND
ESCALATING RENTS.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE RATE OF
INCREASE IN THE PAST YEAR OR
TWO, MUCH HIGHER THAN IN THE
YEARS PRIOR.
SO ON THE RENTAL SIDE, WE
NEED...

Steve says TALK ABOUT THIS
IN-BETWEEN.

Greg says OKAY.

Steve says THAT CHERISE TALKS
ABOUT AND WHETHER THE LIBERAL
RECORD IS ANY GOOD.

Greg says I'M MORE INTERESTED IN TERMS
OF PRICE RATHER THAN THE BUILT
FORM.
IN TERMS OF PRICE, IS THERE
MODERATE RENTAL MARKET HOUSING
THAT CAN COVER ITS COSTS AND BE
QUITE VIABLE AT 1500, 1800 A
MONTH BUT IT'S NOT INSECURE
CONDO RENTAL.
THAT'S NOT HAPPENING.

Steve says THAT'S NOT HAPPENING.

Greg says IF THERE IS AFFORDABLE
OWNERSHIP, WHERE IT'S WE HAVE
SOME MODELS, A COUPLE OF
NON-PROFIT DEVELOPERS ARE DOING
WHERE THE NON-PROFIT WILL HANG
ON TO A PORTION OF THE VALUE OF
THE UNIT, LIKE YOU KNOW, THEY
MIGHT HANG ON TO 100,000 OF A
400,000 dollar VALUE, AND THAT
HOUSEHOLD CAN AFFORD 300,000, SO
THAT'S BEING DONE ON A SMALL
SCALE.
EVEN IF TORONTO HAS A SOFTENING
HOUSING MARKET, PRICES AREN'T
GOING TO GO DOWN TO WHERE THEY
WERE 25 YEARS AGO, RIGHT?

Steve says FOR SURE.

Greg says WE NEED MORE OF THOSE KINDS
OF OPTIONS.

Steve says LET ME GET YOUR VIEW
OF THE LIBERAL HOUSING.

The caption changes to "Simone Swail, @simoneswail."

Simone says I THINK THE FEDERAL PLAN DID
A GREAT JOB OF COOLING OFF AN
OUT-OF-CONTROL HOUSING MARKET.
WE'LL GET TO RENT CONTROL LATER,
BUT WE THINK THAT WAS ALSO A
POSITIVE THING FOR THOSE THAT
NEEDED IT.
WHAT IT DIDN'T DO WAS CREATE A
WHOLE LOT OF NEW AFFORDABLE
HOUSING.
SO YOU KNOW, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
THE MISSING MIDDLE, BUT THERE'S
ALSO A WHOLE SEGMENT OF SOCIETY
THAT'S BEEN WAITING FOR NEW
AFFORDABLE HOUSING TO BE BUILT
WHO HAS BEEN IN THIS HOUSING
CRISIS FOR A WHOLE HECK OF A LOT
LONGER, AND NOW WE'RE JUST
GETTING SOME MIDDLE INCOME FOLKS
STARTING TO FEEL THE SAME PAIN
THAT THEY HAVE BEEN FEELING FOR
A VERY LONG TIME.
AND THE CANADIAN RENTAL HOUSING
INDEX CAME OUT WITH A REPORT
LAST WEEK SHOWING 700,000
RENTERS IN ONTARIO ARE SPENDING
MORE THAN 30 percent OF THEIR INCOME ON
RENT.
THAT'S NOT SUSTAINABLE, SO WE
NEED TO BE PROVIDING MORE
OPTIONS.
THAT'S WHERE WE FEEL THE FAIR
HOUSING PLAN COULD HAVE DONE MORE.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: TVO.org. Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, YouTube, Periscope, Instagram."

Steve says I THINK THE GREEN
PARTY CANDIDATE FOR KITCHENER
CENTRE, STACEY, WHO WAS HERE
YESTERDAY MIGHT AGREE WITH YOU.
SHE SUGGESTED SOME ALTERNATIVES.
LET'S HEAR SOME OF THOSE.

A clip plays on screen with the caption "Stacey Danckert. Green Candidate, Kitchener Centre."
In the clip, Stacey talks in the studio. She's in her thirties, with long blond hair.

She says MAKING SURE THAT WE'RE DOING
MIXED USE MEDIUM DENSITY
HOUSING, SO WORKING WITH
MUNICIPALITIES TO ENSURE THAT
WE'RE USING THE LAND THAT WE
HAVE AVAILABLE FOR DEVELOPMENT
IN CREATIVE WAYS.
THAT MAY MEAN BYLAW CHANGES OR
ZONING CHANGES, MAKING SURE THAT
WE CAN USE THAT SPACE AS
EFFICIENTLY AS WE CAN WHILE
STILL MAKING SURE THAT OUR
NEIGHBOURHOODS ARE CREATING
REALLY NICE STRONG COMMUNITIES.

Steve says ISN'T THAT
INTENSIFICATION?
ISN'T THAT WHAT YOU'RE TALKING
ABOUT?

Stacey says YES, SOME INTENSIFICATION,
FOR SURE, IS WHAT YOU'RE TALKING
ABOUT.
I DON'T THINK IT ALWAYS HAS TO
BE THE BIG UGLY CONCRETE BLOCKS
SURROUNDED BY CONCRETE.
I THINK THERE ARE OTHER WAYS
THAT WE CAN DO IT.
MORE MEDIUM DENSITY CAN REALLY
FIT IN NICELY TO NEIGHBOURHOODS,
AS LONG AS YOU THINK ABOUT THE
GREEN SPACE AND HOW IT'S
CONNECTED TO THE DIFFERENT
COMMERCIAL OPPORTUNITIES AROUND.

The clip ends.

Steve says JOE, DO YOU THINK
DEVELOPERS WOULD BE ON-BOARD FOR
BUILDING MORE MIXED USE, MEDIUM
DENSITY, LOTS OF GREEN SPACE
RATHER THAN THE BIG CONDO TOWERS?

The caption changes to "Joe Vaccaro, @JoeOHBA."

Joe says I THINK DEVELOPERS ARE
ALREADY DOING THAT.
I THINK THE CHALLENGE IS THIS:
GOVERNMENT TALKS ABOUT
PARTNERSHIPS, BUT THE
GOVERNMENT, THE LIBERAL
GOVERNMENT HAS REALLY BEEN USING
A LOT OF POLICY LEVERS, FORCING,
SHAPING, SQUEEZING APPLICATIONS
AND HOW THE PROCESS WORKS.
PARTNERSHIP SPEAKS TO EVERYONE
BRINGS SOMETHING TO THE TABLE.
SO A GREAT SUCCESS STORY IS THE
PAN AM VILLAGE.
THAT WAS A TRUE PARTNERSHIP.
THE GOVERNMENT PUT UP THE LAND.
PRIVATE BUSINESS CAME IN, BUILT
THOSE UNITS, AND NOW THEY ARE IN
THE RENTAL BANK AND AFFORDABLE UNITS.
THAT'S A PARTNERSHIP.
GOVERNMENT GAVE THE LAND, THE
PRIVATE CAME IN AND BROUGHT THE SPECIES.

Steve says YOU DON'T SEE ENOUGH OF THAT.

Joe says WE SEE WE'LL LET THE PRIVATE
SECTOR FIGURE IT OUT AFTER THIS
OR THAT POLICY.
USUALLY THE DEVELOPER HAS TO
FIGURE OUT CAN I MAKE THIS
PROJECT WORK?
IS IT SUSTAINABLE?
IS IT PROFITABLE?
IF IT'S NOT SUSTAINABLE OR
PROFITABLE, WHY AM I BUILDING IT?
THAT IS WHEN YOU TURN TO
GOVERNMENT AND SAY IF YOU WANT
THIS PROJECT TO HAPPEN, WHAT ARE
YOU BRINGING TO THE TABLE?
AND A LOT OF TIMES WHAT WE HEAR
BACK IS WE DON'T HAVE ANYTHING
TO OFFER YOU, BUT WE CAN FORCE
YOU TO DO IT, AND THE DEVELOPER
WILL SAY, WELL, YOU REALLY
CAN'T, BECAUSE IF IT'S NOT
SUSTAINABLE AND PROFITABLE, I'LL
JUST LEAVE IT AS IT IS AND I'LL
MOVE ON TO THE NEXT PROJECT.

Steve says DOES THE NEXT
GOVERNMENT OF ONTARIO, WHOEVER
IT IS, NEED TO BE MORE OF A PARTNER?

The caption changes to "Tim Hudak, @timhudak."

Tim says YES, TOTALLY.
WE DID SOME POLLING, ESPECIALLY
IN THE VOTE-RICH 905 AND FOUND
THAT ACCESS TO ESPECIALLY FOR
FIRST-TIME HOME BUYERS, A BIG
ISSUE AND MOTIVATING ISSUE FOR
THEM AND THE PARENTS AND THE
GRANDPARENTS.
I SPENT A LOT OF TIME IN
POLITICS AND DEVELOPERS.
I'VE NEVER MET A DEVELOPER WHO
DIDN'T WANT TO MAKE MONEY.
IN THE POSITIVE SENSE, THEY KNOW
WHAT THEIR MARKET IS.
EVERYBODY WATCHING TONIGHT KNOWS
SOMEBODY THAT, YOU KNOW, THEIR
DAUGHTER WENT TO UNIVERSITY, SHE
GOT HER DEGREE, SHE'S GOT A GOOD
JOB, CAN'T FIND A PLACE.
PROBLEM IS TOO MANY GOVERNMENT
RULES, TOO MANY DELAYS, TOO MANY
REGULATIONS AND TOO MUCH
NIMBYISM THAT IS STOPPING GOOD
PROJECTS FROM GOING FORWARD.

Steve says DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT, CHERISE?

Cherise says I THINK THERE'S A WHOLE
OPTION OF SOLUTIONS WE NEED TO
BE TAPPING INTO, AND ONE OF THE
MOST IMPORTANT THINGS AND WE SAW
THAT ON THE CLIP IS IDENTIFYING
WHAT TYPE OF SUPPLY WE NEED
WHERE WE NEED IT.
AND FOR EXAMPLE, WE DID A STUDY
RECENTLY THAT LOOKED AT THE
ENTIRE FOOTPRINT OF MISSISSAUGA
AND FOUND THAT THEY COULD
ACCOMMODATE THEIR ENTIRE
POPULATION GROWTH TO 2041 AND
80 percent OF ALL APPEALS BY BUILDING
MEDIUM DENSITY HOUSING IN THEIR
LIMITS.

Steve says THEY DON'T WANT TO DO THAT?

Cherise says WELL, THE POINT IS THAT YOU
CAN ACTUALLY BUILD HOUSING AND
MEET THE POPULATION LIMITS
WITHOUT BUILDING TALL OR SMALL.
THAT IS AN EXTREME SORT OF
EXAMPLE TO SHOW CASE THAT YOU
CAN DO IT, BUT THE ISSUE IS HOW
DO YOU GET THE POLICIES IN ORDER
TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN?
AND RIGHT NOW IT'S A LOT MORE
COST COMPETITIVE FOR A DEVELOPER
TO BUILD 37 STOREYS THAN IT IS 7
STOREYS, RIGHT, BECAUSE OF THE
LAND COST AND BECAUSE OF ZONING
AND THE APPROVALS PROCESS AND
ALL OF THE THINGS THAT JOE TALKS
ABOUT.
SO WHAT THE NEXT GOVERNMENT
NEEDS TO DO IS SIT DOWN AND SAY
WHERE DO WE NEED THIS HOUSING,
WHAT TYPE DO WE NEED, WHAT ARE A
LOT OF THE CREATIVE DIFFERENT
SOLUTIONS, AND IF WE ARE GOING
TO BE OFFERING POLICY SOLUTIONS,
ZONING CHANGES AND INCENTIVES,
WHERE DO WE DIRECT THAT?

Steve says JOE?

Joe says I THINK THE CHALLENGE WE HAVE
IS THESE ARE ACADEMIC
DISCUSSIONS.
THE PRACTICAL REALITY ON THE
GROUND IS YOU CAN MAKE THE
ARGUMENT, YOU CAN SQUEEZE
EVERYONE INTO MISSISSAUGA, BUT
YOU STILL HAVE TO GO GET
APPROVAL, WHICH MEANS YOU STILL
NEED TO GET A COUNCIL VOTE AND
STILL HAVE TO DEAL WITH
RESIDENTS.
THESE ACADEMIC DISCUSSIONS AT
SOME POINT HIT THE WALL OF
REALITY, AND THE REALITY IS THE
DEVELOPER IN A POSITION TO MOVE
THAT PROJECT FORWARD?
ONE THING THAT WE ALWAYS FOLLOW,
YOU KNOW, HAVE A CONCERN WITH IS
WE HAVE ALL THESE POLICY
ENTREPRENEURS WHO WANT TO PLAY
WITH POLICY AS A WAY TO CREATE
THE PERFECT COMMUNITY.
BUT THERE'S NO FISCAL REALITY TO
HOW THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS, AND
SO THE DEVELOPER IS LEFT THERE
STANDING SAYING IT'S A BEAUTIFUL
IDEA.
SOMEONE ELSE WILL BUILD IT.
I CAN'T MAKE THAT HAPPEN.
I CAN'T GET THE APPROVAL FROM
THE RESIDENTS.
I CAN'T GET THE FINANCING TO
WORK, AND BY THE WAY, THE COST
OF CONSTRUCTION, CONCRETE,
STEEL, KEEPS GOING UP.
SO THE LONGER YOU DELAY THIS TO
HAPPEN, THE LESS LIKELY YOU WILL
HAVE IT HAPPEN.
I LIKE WHAT CHERISE SAID.
IT'S WHAT'S THE RIGHT SUPPLY,
BUT THE NEXT STEP IS LET'S MAKE
IT HAPPEN.
WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH OF THAT
ATTITUDE.
WE HAVE THE ATTITUDE FROM
GOVERNMENT SAYING WE'VE DONE OUR
PART, YOU FIGURE IT OUT NOW.
WHEN YOU GET INTO THAT PLACE,
THAT'S WHEN YOU END UP IN AN
ENVIRONMENT OF PRICE ESCALATION,
SHORTAGE OF SUPPLY.
DEMAND KEEPS GOING UP, AND WE
END UP GOING BACK TO A
CONVERSATION OF IS IT TIME TO
CRUSH THE DREAM.
IT'S NOT TIME TO CRUSH THE
DREAM.
IT'S TIME TO GET TO WORK.

Cherise says THAT'S THE NEXT STEP, THE
ROLLING UP OF SLEEVES AND SAYING
HOW DO WE MAKE THE LAND MORE...
HOW DO WE MAKE THIS COST
COMPETITIVE TO BUILDING TALL AND
BUILDING SPRAWL, BECAUSE SIMPLY
LETTING MORE OF THAT DEVELOPMENT
HAPPEN IS GOING TO MAKE THAT
MISSING MIDDLE HOUSING MORE RARE
AND EVEN MORE UNAFFORDABLE.
SO THAT'S THE TOUGH QUESTION.
THAT'S THE MILLION DOLLAR
QUESTION.
THAT'S WHAT NEEDS TO BE SOLVED.

Simone says THIS IS WHERE YOU CAN ALSO
LOOK TO NEW PARTNERS.
THERE WAS A TIME THAT CO-OPS AND
NON-PROFITS BUILT THESE
COMMUNITIES THAT ARE STILL
VIBRANT TODAY.
I DIDN'T SAY IT AT THE UPSTART,
BUT MAYBE I SHOULD MENTION,
THERE ARE 550 HOUSING CO-OPS IN
ONTARIO.
WE ARE HOME TO 40,000
HOUSEHOLDS.
WE ARE THE SMALL, SMALL SISTER
TO THE NON-PROFIT SECTOR, AND
THESE ARE LIVELY COMMUNITIES
WHERE PEOPLE WITH REALLY ENGAGE,
AND WE USED TO KNOW HOW TO DO
THIS.
ONTARIO USED TO BE AT THE
FOREFRONT OF HELPING TO BUILD
THESE KIND OF COMMUNITIES.
WE GOT OUT OF THE GAME, AND YOU
KNOW, WE'RE SUFFERING THE
CONSEQUENCES OF 25 YEARS OF
RELATIVELY LITTLE ACTION.
AND YOU KNOW, WE'RE TALKING
ABOUT THE UPWARD PRESSURES, BUT
THERE'S ALSO BUILT UP DEMAND ON
THE LOWER-END SUPPLY THAT IS
ALSO FEELING THIS PROBLEM.
WE GET GOING BUILDING REAL
COMMUNITIES AGAIN, AND THERE'S A
ROLE FOR GOVERNMENT.
IT'S NOT JUST ON THE PRIVATE
SECTOR TO DO IT ALONE.
AND THAT COULD REALLY BE PART OF
THE SOLUTION.

Steve says LET ME JUMP IN HERE.
I GOT TO MAKE SURE WE DON'T RUN
OUT OF TIME BEFORE WE HEAR FROM
THE OTHER TWO PARTIES AS WELL.
DENZIL MINAN-WONG WAS ON OUR
PROGRAM LAST NIGHT.

A clip plays on screen with the caption "Denzil Minnan-Wong. PC Candidate, Don Valley East."
In the clip, Denzil talks in the studio. He's in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short gray hair.

He says SOME OF THE OTHER THINGS WE
NEED TO DO, QUITE FRANKLY, IS WE
NEED TO REDUCE RED TAPE.
THERE ARE...

Steve says LIKE WHAT?

Denzil says THE ENVIRONMENTAL
ASSESSMENTS, ALL THE THINGS THAT
A DEVELOPER HAS TO GO THROUGH.
YOU KNOW, IF SOMEONE IS GOING TO
BUILD AFFORDABLE HOUSING, WE
SHOULD GIVE THEM... WE SHOULD
FAST TRACK THAT.
WE SHOULD HAVE INCENTIVES FOR
THEM TO BUILD THEIR UNITS AND
BUILD THEM QUICKLY.

The clip ends.

Steve says NOW, GREG, I SAW THE
LOOK ON PETER TABUN'S FACE WHEN
HE SAID WE GOT TO GET RID OF
ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENTS FOR
THOSE WHO WANT TO BUILD
AFFORDABLE HOUSING.
THAT WAS A LOOK OF " THAT'S A
DUMB IDEA."
YOU'RE THE EXPERT.
YOU TELL ME.

Greg says BUILDING FOR THE BOTTOM 20 percent
OF THE POPULATION, IT'S MOSTLY
ABOUT MARSHALLING THE MONEY.
IT'S ABOUT PROVIDING A MORTGAGE
THAT'S GOING TO BE PROVIDED TO A
MUNICIPAL OR NON-PROFIT ENTITY
ON A DIFFERENT BASIS THAN A
MARKET DEVELOPER'S GOING TO GET
IT FROM, YOU KNOW, A BANK.
IT'S ABOUT PROVIDING RENT
SUBSIDIES.
YOU KNOW, IT'S ABOUT...

Steve says IS IT ABOUT GETTING
RID OF ENVIRONMENTAL
ASSESSMENTS?

Greg says THAT'S NOT GOING TO DO THE
TRICK.
IT'S REALLY THE FINANCING AND
CAPITAL GRANTS AS WELL THAT ARE
GOING TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN FOR
THE LOW END, AND THAT'S... YOU
KNOW, THAT'S THE SORT OF ONE OR
TWO PER CENT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE,
YOU KNOW, MENTAL HEALTH...
SERIOUS MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES OR
CHRONIC HOMELESSNESS AND NEED
SUPPORTIVE HOUSING.
THAT'S FOR I WOULD SAY THE 10 percent
OF THE POPULATION AND OF THE
PRODUCTION, I HOPE, THAT OUGHT
TO BE KIND OF SUBSIDIZED RENTAL.

Steve says TIM, I KNOW YOU'RE NOT
A GUY WHO WOULD BE IN LOVE WITH
RED TAPE, BUT DO YOU WANT TO GET
RID OF ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENT?

Tim says I THINK WHAT DENZIL IS
ACCELERATING AT, WHAT I USUALLY
HEAR WHEN I TALK TO PEOPLE IN
THE BUILDING SECTOR, TALK TO
REALTOR MEMBERS, IS IT'S THE
OVERLAP.
THEY HAVE SO MANY DEPARTMENTS
AND MINISTRIES AND LEVELS OF
GOVERNMENT.
MULTI-TIER, REGIONAL, PROVINCE,
LOCAL, AND THEY PULL THEIR HAIR
OUT AND PRICES GO THROUGH THE
ROOF OR PEOPLE DON'T GET A HOUSE
IN THE FIRST PLACE.
I THINK FOR THE NEXT GOVERNMENT
AFTER JUNE 7 THEY HAVE TO PLAY A
MORE AGGRESSIVE ROLE IN MOVING
HOUSING SUPPLY FORWARD.
THAT'S ACROSS THE BOARD, WHETHER
ON THE SOCIAL HOUSING SIDE,
STARTER HOMES AND HOMES WHEN YOU
UPGRADE, WHEN YOU HAVE A KID OR
NEED MORE SPACE.
THE PROBLEM IS WHEN YOU HAVE A
LOCAL COUNCILLOR WHO WILL ALWAYS
THINK ABOUT EXISTING VOTERS AND
NOT FUTURE VOTERS.
THE PROVINCE HAS A ROLE TO PLAY
TO SAY, HEY, YOU WANT MONEY FOR
THAT TRUNK LINE, THAT SEWER,
THAT TRANSIT PROJECT, BUILD MORE
HOUSING.
THE PROVINCE... IF YOU DON'T DO
IT, WE'RE GOING TO FORCE THEM ON
TO YOU BECAUSE WHEN YOU HAVE SO
MANY PEOPLE LIVING IN APARTMENTS
THAT CAN'T GET OUT, YOU GOT TO
TAKE ACTION.

Steve says DO WE BLAME THE
MUNICIPAL POLITICIAN WHO HAS TO
GO BACK TO HIS OR HER ELECTORS
IN FIVE MONTHS TIME AND TRIES TO
MAKE THE CASE THAT, OH, IT'S A
REALLY GOOD IDEA TO HAVE THIS
MID-SIZED DEVELOPMENT GO 100
YARDS FROM YOUR HOME?

Tim says I GET THE CREATURE AND I GET
THE DECISIONS THEY HAVE TO MAKE.
WE'RE GOING TO GET FUNDING FOR
THAT, THAT'S GOING TO COME DOWN
THE ROAD, EXPAND TRANSIT OPTIONS
FOR YOU, GET A SUBWAY OR A
HIGHWAY.
THERE'S GOT TO BE TRADE-OFFS.
FIRST AND FOREMOST, THE PROVINCE
CAN USE THE CARROT APPROACH.
IT DOESN'T WORK, STEVE.
THEY GOT TO START PUSHING MORE
SUPPLY, OTHERWISE THE POOL I
TALKED ABOUT WITH ALL THE
EDUCATION, THEY WILL SIMPLY PACK
UP AND GO TO ANOTHER PROVINCE.

Simone says I THINK WHAT WAS PART OF
THAT, THOUGH, IS IF PEOPLE CAN
ACTUALLY SEE HOW THIS HOUSING IS
A BENEFIT TO THEM, OR PEOPLE
LIKE THEM.
A LOT OF THE HOUSING THAT'S
GOING UP THESE DAYS, YOU KNOW,
IT'S NOT A PLACE WHERE THE KID
THAT'S LIVING IN THE BASEMENT
RIGHT NOW CAN ACTUALLY MOVE
INTO.
SO IF WE'RE MIXING UP THOSE
COMMUNITIES, WE'RE PROVIDING A
LITTLE BIT OF AFFORDABLE AS PART
OF THEM, A LITTLE BIT OF SOCIAL,
MAKING REALLY COMPLETE
COMMUNITIES, I THINK YOU CAN
HAVE A BETTER JOB SELLING THEM
TO FOLKS ABOUT HAVING THEM JOIN
THEIR COMMUNITY, IF THEY CAN SEE
THAT THERE'S SOMETHING IN IT FOR
THEM AS WELL.

Cherise says AND WE NEED TO BE CREATIVE
AND INNOVATIVE.
ONE EXAMPLE IS THE FACT THAT
THERE ARE SO MANY EMPTY NESTERS
IN... RATTLING AROUND IN THESE
GIANT HOUSES.
THERE ARE, LIKE, 5 MILLION
UNUSED BEDROOMS IN THE PROVINCE,
AND HALF OF THOSE ARE IN THE GTA.
AND I KNOW THE CITY OF TORONTO
RIGHT NOW IS LOOKING AT MATCHING
THOSE SENIORS WITH STUDENTS TO
RENT THEM, SOME OF THOSE
BEDROOMS.
LET'S GO FURTHER.
LET'S ALLOW SOME ZONING CHANGES
TO SUBDIVIDE THOSE GIANT HOUSES
INTO RENTING THEM OUT, OR EVEN
LET'S TAKE A PAGE OUT OF THE
BOOK OF... FROM B.C., WHERE THEY
ACTUALLY HAVE STRADDLE LAWS THAT
ALLOW YOU TO SELL UNITS OF THESE
BIG HOUSES TO YOUNG FAMILIES WHO
CAN MOVE INTO NEIGHBOURHOODS
WHERE OTHERWISE THEY COULDN'T
AFFORD.
THEN THE SENIOR HAS ACCESS TO
CASH THAT IS LOCKED UP IN THEIR
HOUSE AND THEY DON'T HAVE TO GET
A HOME EQUITY LOAN TO ACCESS IT.

Steve says WHAT'S STOPPING ANY OF
THAT FROM HAPPENING RIGHT NOW?

Joe says LOCAL COUNCIL.
EVERYTHING YOU'RE SPEAKING TO,
FROM AN INNOVATION STANDPOINT,
MAKES PERFECT SENSE.
BUT WOULD YOU IMAGINE CONVINCING
THE LOCAL COUNCIL THAT NOW IS
THE TIME TO ALLOW THAT KIND OF
OPPORTUNITY FOR HOUSING USE?
IT JUST... LOCAL COUNCIL, THEY
GET ELECTED BY THEIR COMMUNITY.
IF THEIR COMMUNITY'S VIEW IS
THIS IS OUR COMMUNITY, THIS IS
THE CHARACTER, AND IT WILL NOT
CHANGE, THEN THEY GET ELECTED TO
DEFEND THAT POSITION.
AND SO WHETHER IT'S HIGH-RISE OR
TOWN HOUSES, THAT'S THE REALITY
OF LOCAL COUNCIL.
AND WE OFTEN SAY, AT THE END OF
EVERY APPROVAL, THERE'S A
POLITICAL VOTE.
EITHER COUNCIL SAYS YES OR
COUNCIL SAYS NO, AND YOU HAVE TO
WORK YOUR WAY THROUGH THAT.
THAT GOES BACK TO PARTNERSHIPS,
HAVING AN HONEST DIALOGUE ABOUT
WHAT IS THE SOLUTION WE'RE
PUTTING FORWARD AND WHY DOES IT
WORK IN OUR COMMUNITY.
AND IT'S A CHALLENGE.
IT'S A PRACTICAL CHALLENGE THAT
WE HAVE TO DO IT.

Steve says WE TALKED ABOUT RENTING ONCE
UPON A TIME, AND I WANT TO COME
FULL CIRCLE AND COME BACK TO
THAT.
PETER TABUNS WAS HERE ON THE
PROGRAM LAST NIGHT AND HAD THIS
TO SAY ABOUT RENTING.
SHELDON, GO.

A clip plays on screen with the caption "Peter Tabuns. NDP Candidate, Toronto-Danforth."
In the clip, Peter talks in the studio. He's in his fifties, clean-shaven, with short white hair.

He says WE GO BACK TO INCLUSIONARY
ZONING, HAVING TO BE PART OF THE
POLICY RESPONSE.
THERE'S GOING TO HAVE TO BE
GOVERNMENT INVESTMENT IN THIS.
IF YOU'LL REMEMBER BACK, AND
EVEN GOING BACK BEFORE RENT
CONTROL, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
WAS PUTTING MONEY INTO LIMITED
DIVIDEND BUILDINGS.
YOU HAVE TO HAVE A GOVERNMENT
COMPONENT OF FINANCING TO
ACTUALLY BUILD HOUSING THAT MOST
RENTERS CAN AFFORD.
THE MARKET IS NOT GOING TO
PROVIDE IT.
WHAT WE DID SEE WITH THE MARKET
BEING ABLE TO DO WHATEVER IT
WANTED UP TO THE TIME I PROVOKED
THE GOVERNMENT TO BRING IN RENT
CONTROL, I BROUGHT IN A BILL
ENDING THE POST-'91 EXEMPTIONS.
THE GOVERNMENT UNDERSTOOD THE
POLITICAL IMPLICATIONS OF NOT
ACTING AND ACTED.
WE SAW PEOPLE BEING DRIVEN OUT.
INVESTORS WANT TO MAXIMIZE THEIR
RETURN.
THAT'S JUST THE WAY THE SYSTEM
WORKS.
IF YOU DON'T PROTECT THEM,
YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE LARGE
NUMBERS OF PEOPLE DRIVEN OUT OF
THEIR HOUSES.

The clip ends.

Steve says JOE, IT'S PETER
TABUNS VIEW THAT YOUR CITY
WASN'T BUILDING MUCH RENTAL,
WHAT DID HE CALL IT
PURPOSE-BUILT RENTAL TO BEGIN
WITH.
THEREFORE, EXTENDING RENT
CONTROLS ON BUILDINGS BUILT
AFTER 1991 DIDN'T DRAMATICALLY
DEPRESS THE MARKET ANYWAY.
IS HE RIGHT ABOUT THAT?

Joe says WELL, I THINK WHAT HE IGNORES
IS THE UNBELIEVABLE CONDOMINIUM
BOOM THAT FOLLOWED.
BUILDERS MOVED OUT OF THE
PURPOSE-BUILT RENTAL MODEL INTO
A CONDOMINIUM MODEL, AND OVER
50 percent OF THE UNITS END UP BECOMING
RENTAL STOCK.
I THINK HE IGNORES THAT FACT.
I AGREE WITH HIM WHEN HE SAYS THAT GOVERNMENT HAS A FINANCIAL
ROLE TO PLAY, WHETHER IT'S
INCLUSIONARY ZONING OR OTHER
PROGRAMMING.
THE REALITY IS IF THE GOVERNMENT
WANTS TO REALLY MOVE THE
AFFORDABLE HOUSING ISSUE, THE
AFFORDABLE RENTAL ISSUE, THEY
NEED TO CUT A CHECK.
THEY NEED TO BE PARTNERS IN
TERMS OF LAND AND FINANCING.

Steve says TIM, IN YOUR VIEW WAS
IT GOOD OR BAD POLICY TO PUT
RENT CONTROLS ON POST '91-BUILT
BUILDINGS.

Tim says SHORT TERM GOOD POLITICS, BAD
POLICY.
SHORT TERM AND LONG TERM.
TELL YOU WHY.
A LOT OF MOM AND POP INVESTORS
IN OUR SOCIETY.
THEY'LL BUY A CONDO OR TWO AS AN
INCOME PROPERTY AND RENT IT OUT.
THAT HAS BEEN THE BIGGEST
SUPPORT OF RENTAL SUPPLY IN THE
GREATER TORONTO AREA, HAMILTON
AND PROBABLY THROUGHOUT THE
PROVINCE.
NOW THE MOM AND POPS HAVE LESS
INCENTIVE TO INVEST, LESS RENTAL
UNITS COMING ON BOARD.
THEY HAVE TO DEAL WITH SOME
PRETTY THICK RED TAPE WHEN IT
COMES TO THE LANDLORD-TENANT
RELATIONSHIP.
HONESTLY, I'LL INVEST ELSEWHERE.
WHO PAYS THE CONSEQUENCES?
STUDENTS ARE TRYING TO FIND A
GOOD PLACE TO LIVE, A SINGLE MOM
LOOKING FOR A PLACE CLOSE TO
WORK OR THOSE LOSING HOMES ALL
TOGETHER.
BAD POLICY.

Steve says IF YOU WERE IN, IF YOU
HAD A RENTAL ACCOMMODATION AND
YOU HAD RENT CONTROLS ON THAT,
YOU'RE GOLDEN.

Simone says YEAH.

Steve says BUT IF YOU'RE NOT IN,
IF YOU'RE OUTSIDE TRYING TO GET
IN, DOES THIS POLICY HELP YOU AT ALL?

Simone says DOES IT HELP YOU?
WELL, NOT THE WAY IT'S CURRENTLY
WRITTEN.
I'LL SAY THAT.
BUT I WANT TO PUSH BACK ON A FEW
THINGS THAT TIM AND JOE HAVE
SAID, AND I AGREE WITH THEM ON
SO MUCH, BUT YOU KNOW, A FEW
THINGS.
YOU'RE RIGHT, THEY'RE RIGHT, THE
NEW RENTAL SUPPLY HAS BEEN IN
THE CONDO MARKET.
THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE DEPENDED ON
FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS.

Steve says RENT CONTROLS APPLY TO
THE CONDO MARKET?

Simone says IT DIDN'T, AND NOW IT DOES.
WHICH IS GOOD, WHICH IS
IMPORTANT FOR THE FOLKS THAT
ACTUALLY LIVE THERE, FOR THE
PARTICULAR PEOPLE, AND MY AGE
GROUP PRIMARILY LIVING IN A LOT
OF THOSE BUILDINGS, YOU KNOW,
THAT'S ALL THAT'S BEEN BUILT.
BUT IT'S ACTUALLY NOT A GREAT
SOURCE OF RENTAL HOUSING.
IT'S NOT A GREAT LIFESTYLE FOR
THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE THERE
BECAUSE IT'S VERY INSECURE.
YOU HAVE VERY FEW PROTECTIONS
WHEN YOU'RE RENTING FROM A MOM
AND POP LANDLORD, YOU KNOW.
THEY COULD SELL AT ANY TIME.
THEY MIGHT NEED TO TAKE OVER THE
UNIT, GIVE IT TO A MEMBER OF
THEIR FAMILY.
THERE'S ALL SORTS OF ISSUES.
THEY MADE A FEW CHANGES TO OFFER
A BIT OF PROTECTION TO THAT, BUT
WE KNOW FROM NUMEROUS STUDIES,
RYERSON'S BEEN INVOLVED IN SOME
OF THESE, THAT PURPOSE-BUILT
RENTAL IS ACTUALLY MUCH BETTER
HOMES FOR FOLKS.
IT'S MORE AFFORDABLE OVER THE
LONG TERM, AND IT'S WHAT WE NEED
TO SEE.
SO HOW DO WE INCENTIVIZE THAT?

Steve says THAT WAS MY NEXT
QUESTION.
ARE THERE ENOUGH INCENTIVES IN
PLACE TO GET DEVELOPERS TO BUILD
PURPOSE-BUILT ACCOMMODATION?

Cherise says I THINK THIS COMES DOWN TO
THIS WHOLE SUITE OF SOLUTIONS
THAT IT'S INCENTIVES, IT'S
ZONING, IT'S CHANGES IN
DIFFERENT POLICIES IN ORDER TO
MAKE IT MORE COST COMPETITIVE.
ROLL UP THE SLEEVES, FIGURE OUT
WHERE WE NEED THE SUPPLY, WHAT
TYPE OF SUPPLY, AND HOW TO MAKE
IT HAPPEN.
I'LL JUST GIVE ONE EXAMPLE.
LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT
PARTNERSHIPS AND LET'S TAKE A
LOOK AT OUR GO TRAIN STATIONS.
THE PROVINCE IS INVESTING $16
BILLION IN THE RER, THE REGIONAL
EXPRESS ROUTE, ABOUT HALF OF THE
MONEY THAT THEY'RE INVESTING IN
ALL OF OUR TRANSIT
INFRASTRUCTURE.
NOW THESE ARE PROVINCIAL... THE
STATIONS ARE PROVINCIALLY OWNED.
LET'S LOOK AT DOING SOME JOINT
DEVELOPMENT, PARTNERSHIP WITH
THE DEVELOPERS AND LET'S BOTH
PUT SKIN IN THE GAME.
YOU KNOW, THE PROVINCE COMING TO
THE TABLE...

Steve says BUILDING RENTAL
ACCOMMODATION TO THE TRAIN STATION?

The caption changes to "Building the right supply."

Cherise says BUILDING COMPLETE COMMUNITIES
THAT INCLUDE RENTALS, INCLUDE
MARKET HOUSING, INCLUDE
OWNERSHIP, INCLUDE A MIX OF
HOUSING OPTIONS FOR A RANGE OF
FAMILY BUDGETS AND FAMILY SIZES
AND COMPLETE COMMUNITIES, MIXED
USE, SCHOOLS, SERVICES.
YOU ALREADY HAVE THE TRANSIT
STATION THERE.
YOU ALREADY HAVE THE PUBLIC
LAND.
THE DEVELOPER COMES, THEIR SKIN
IN THE GAME IS BUILDING IT, AND
GUESS WHAT, THEY CAN SHARE IN
THE PROFITS.
AND THIS IS BEING DONE ELSEWHERE
IN THE WORLD, AND THAT MONEY CAN
GO INTO BUILDING MORE TRANSIT.

Steve says CAN I ASK, I GOT 20
SECONDS LEFT HERE.
TIM, CAN I ASK YOU A DUMB
QUESTION.
DO PEOPLE WANT TO LIVE ON TOP OF
A TRAIN STATION?

Tim says SURE.
THEY'D KILL NOT TO HOP ON THE
SUBWAY AND GET TO WORK.
SOME WOULD.
WE CAN'T LOSE SIGHT THAT THERE'S
NOT TWO DIFFERENT SPECIES.
WE NEED TO INCREASE SUPPLY IN
ALL OF THOSE AREAS.

The caption changes to "Producer: Jane Burke, @JBurkeTweets."

Steve says GOTCHA.
THAT'S TIM HUDAK, CEO OF THE
ONTARIO REAL ESTATE ASSOCIATION.
I ALSO WANT TO THANK SIMONE
SWAIL, GOVERNMENT RELATIONS
MANAGER FOR THE CO-OP HOUSING
FEDERATION OF CANADA.
JOE VACCARO, CEO OF THE ONTARIO
HOME BUILDERS ASSOCIATION.
ALSO THANKS TO CHERISE BURDA,
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, RYERSON
CITY BUILDING INSTITUTE, AND
GREG SUTTOR, SENIOR RESEARCHER,
WELLESLEY INSTITUTE. IT'S A CAST
OF THOUSANDS AT TVO TONIGHT.
THANKS SO MUCH, EVERYBODY, FOR
BEING HERE.

All the guests say THANK YOU.

Watch: Affording Housing in Ontario