Transcript: When Mayhem Comes to Town | Apr 26, 2018

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and striped red and pink tie.

A caption on screen reads "When mayhem comes to town."

Steve says FOLLOWING THE
HORRIFYING VAN ATTACK IN TORONTO
THIS WEEK - IN WHICH MOST OF THE
VICTIMS WERE WOMEN - DETAILS
ABOUT THE MAN CHARGED WITH
MULTIPLE COUNTS OF MURDER AND
ATTEMPTED MURDER SLOWLY BUBBLED UP.
THEY RAISED DIFFICULT QUESTIONS
ABOUT A SO-CALLED "TOXIC
MASCULINITY," THE ONLINE GROUPS
CATERING TO IT, AND GAPS IN OUR
MENTAL HEALTH SUPPORT SYSTEMS.
JOINING US NOW TO SORT THROUGH
SOME OF THE ISSUES:
JUDITH TAYLOR, SHE IS PROFESSOR
IN THE WOMEN and GENDER STUDIES
INSTITUTE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO.

Judith is in her forties, with long wavy blond hair. She's wearing glasses, a black shirt, and a beige sweater vest.

Steve continues JAMIL JIVANI, AUTHOR OF "WHY
YOUNG MEN: RAGE, RACE AND THE
CRISIS OF IDENTITY."
HE'S ALSO A VISITING PROFESSOR
AT THE OSGOODE HALL LAW SCHOOL.

Jamil is in his early thirties, clean-shaven and shaven-headed. He's wearing a gray suit and shirt, red tie, and a neck brace.

Steve continues AND JOOYOUNG LEE, ASSOCIATE
PROFESSOR OF SOCIOLOGY, MUNK
SCHOOL OF GLOBAL AFFAIRS AT THE
UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO.

Jooyoung is in his late thirties, with short black hair and a stubble. He's wearing a gray suit and black shirt.

Steve continues WE ARE DELIGHTED TO WELCOME YOU
TWO ON THE END BACK TO TVO, AND
YOU HERE I THINK FOR THE FIRST TIME.

Judith says THAT'S RIGHT.

Steve says OKAY.
GOOD TO SEE EVERYBODY HERE.
WE ARE JUST GOING TO TAKE A
MOMENT OFF THE TOP HERE BECAUSE
JAMIL HAS BEEN ON THE PROGRAM SO
MANY TIMES IN THE PAST, TO GET
HIM TO EXPLAIN WHY HE IS WEARING
THAT DEVICE AROUND HIS NECK.
GO AHEAD.

The caption changes to "Jamil Jivani. Osgoode Hall Law School."

Jamil says I WEAR THIS
TO STABILIZE MY SPINE BECAUSE I
WAS diagnosed WITH CANCER A
FEW WEEKS AGO AND IT'S CRACKED A
COUPLE OF PARTS OF MY SPINE SO I
HAVE TO WEAR THIS TO PREVENT
FROM THE DAMAGE GETTING ANY
WORSE?

Steve says HOW ARE YOU FEELING?

Jamil says I THINK IT'S RELEVANT TO
TODAY'S CONVERSATION.
WHEN YOU FACE ADVERSITY AND HAVE
GRIEVANCES, TAKE THEM IN STRIDE
AND THINK POSITIVELY AND DO
SOMETHING WITH THAT ENERGY OR
GET ANGRY AND BLAME OTHER PEOPLE
FOR YOUR PROBLEMS.
I'M GOING TO DO MY BEST EVERY
DAY TO TAKE THIS THE RIGHT WAY.

Steve says YOUR SUNNY
DISPOSITION IS A GREAT EXAMPLE
FOR ALL OF US.
CONGRATULATIONS.
YOU'RE DOING GREAT.
GREAT TO SEE YOU.

Jamil says GREAT SEEING YOU TOO.

Steve says YOU HAVE HAD THE
MISFORTUNE OF BEING IN A PLACE
BEFORE TORONTO EARLIER THIS WEEK
WHERE MISERY HAPPENED ON A BIG
SCALE BEFORE.
DAVID ATIUS, 2001.
WHO WAS HE AND WHAT HAPPENED?

The caption changes to "Judith Taylor. University of Toronto."
Then, it changes again to "Vehicular homicide."

Judith says RIGHT.
HE WAS A FAIRLY AFFLUENT STUDENT
IN SANTA BARBARA AND HE WAS
ACTUALLY AT THE CITY COLLEGE BUT
HAD A VERY EXPENSIVE SPORTS CAR
THAT HIS FAMILY HAD PURCHASED
FOR HIM, WAS FEELING LOTS OF
ANIMITY.
HE DROVE INTO A DENSELY
POPULATED STUDENT NEIGHBOURHOOD
KILLING MANY STUDENTS.
AFTER THAT HAPPENED...

Steve says YOU WERE THERE.

Judith says YES, I WAS A DOCTORAL
CANDIDATE AT THE TIME, AND I
ASKED MANY OF THEM, DID ANYONE
KNOW HIM?
COULD ANYBODY HAVE PREDICTED
THIS.
MANY SAID HE WAS IN THE HALLWAY
WITH A BASEBALL BAT MANY TIMES,
OTHERS SAID HE WAS MAKING
COMMENTS ABOUT VIOLENCE.
I SAID, HOW COME NO ONE EVER
REPORTED HIM TO A DORM MANAGER?
HOW COME NO ONE EVER REPORTED
HIM TO A PROFESSOR?
AND WE STARTED TO UNDERSTAND HOW
COMMUNITIES COULD BETTER MONITOR
WHO IS AMONGST US.

Steve says SO WHEN YOU COMPARE
THE AFTERMATH OF THAT SITUATION
TO THE AFTERMATH OF I GUESS WHAT
SOME PEOPLE ARE CALLING THE
MASSACRE ON YONGE STREET THIS
TIME AROUND, WHAT ARE YOU FINDING?

Judith says I WOULD SAY THERE'S JUST A
KIND OF ECOSYSTEM OF MALE RAGE
THAT IS BOTH SHOOTING AND
VEHICULAR MANSLAUGHTER STARTING
IN MY ATTENTION FROM COLUMBINE
HIGH SCHOOL IN 1999 AND MOVING
ON. SO I THINK, BECAUSE SO MANY
OF THESE MASSACRES HAPPEN ON
CAMPUSES, IN HIGH SCHOOLS,
ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS, AND
UNIVERSITY CAMPUSES, I HAVE
BEEN TRACKING AND ATTENDING
TO THEM AND THINKING ABOUT
THEM AND HOW WE CAN PREVENT
THEM AND PROTECT STUDENTS
FOR MOST OF MY CAREER.

Steve says AND PEOPLE'S REACTION
THEN AND NOW?
HOW WOULD YOU COMPARE?

Judith says SO THEN, I THINK THE
GOVERNOR DIDN'T GET INVOLVED,
THE MAYOR DIDN'T GET INVOLVED.
IT WAS SEEN AS JUST THIS
ABERRATION. NOW THAT WE HAVE
THIS KIND OF CYCLICAL PATTERN,
IT'S SEEN AS A NATIONAL CRISIS
MORE OFTEN AND PEOPLE TRY TO
PROBLEM SOLVE, THEY TRY TO TALK
ABOUT GUNS; IS THAT THE PROBLEM?
MENTAL HEALTH, IS THAT THE
PROBLEM? EVERYONE GETS VERY
EXCITED AND THEN WE BECOME
CALM AGAIN AND THEN THIS SAME
PROBLEM HAPPENS AGAIN.

Steve says JAMIL, YOU HAD THIS
TO SAY IN
THE GLOBE AND MAIL
EARLIER THIS WEEK. WE'RE GOING
TO SHARE AN EXCERPT WITH OUR
VIEWERS HERE AND THEN WE'LL
CHAT A BIT ABOUT IT. SHELDON,
LET'S PUT THIS GRAPHIC UP...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Cautious words." The quote reads "Following the van attack, Canada's political leaders and most prominent media personalities were rightfully cautious about how they discussed the incident. They were careful to avoid the word terrorism and cut short any speculation that the van attack was connected to other national security threats."
Quoted from Jamil Jivani, The Globe and Mail. April 24, 2018.

Steve says WHY DID YOU FEEL IT
IMPORTANT TO MENTION THAT?

The caption changes to "Jamil Jivani. Author, 'Why young men.'"

Jamil says WE LOOK FOR ANSWERS AND
SOMETIMES EASY ANSWERS AFTER
THESE TRAGEDIES. I THINK ONE OF
THE EASY ANSWERS PEOPLE WERE
LOOKING FOR IS, IS THIS VAN
ATTACK SIMILAR TO OTHER VAN
ATTACKS YOU MIGHT HAVE SEEN IN
EUROPE OR OTHER PLACES THAT HAVE
BEEN CONNECTED TO JIHADISTS AND
GROUPS THAT SHARE THAT VIEW
OF THE WORLD. I THINK OUR
LEADERS' PUBLIC VOICES WERE
VERY GOOD AT MAKING SURE THAT
WITHOUT EVIDENCE WE DIDN'T GO
IN THAT DIRECTION TOO QUICKLY.
BUT I DO THINK THAT IN BEING
CAUTIOUS WE, PERHAPS, DIDN'T
GO SO FAR IN EXPLAINING THAT
WITHOUT EVIDENCE, THERE IS
STILL A MORAL ACTION HERE
THAT CAN BE CONDEMNED. AND
THAT MORAL ACTION OF TAKING YOUR
PERSONAL DISSATISFACTION OUT ON
OTHER PEOPLE IS WHAT I THINK
LINKS THIS TO SOME OF THE OTHER
INCIDENTS WE'VE SEEN.
WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT
THE MOTIVATIONS WERE BEHIND
THE VAN ATTACK, YET. WE DON'T
KNOW A LOT ABOUT THE ACCUSED.
WHAT WE DO KNOW IS THAT THERE
IS A PATTERN OF YOUNG MEN WHO
DEVELOP, WHAT I WOULD CALL,
MORAL RELATIVISM BECAUSE THEY
FEEL SO UNHAPPY WITH THE WORLD.
THEY PICK OUT CERTAIN SEGMENTS
OF OUR SOCIETY, MORAL SOCIETY
AT LARGE, AND SAY, I AM NOW
MORALLY JUSTIFIED TO TAKE LIVES.
THAT IS WHAT WE KNEW ON MONDAY.
WE STILL KNOW THAT TO BE THE
TRUTH TODAY AND WE KNOW THAT
AFTER MOST TRAGEDIES THAT
INVOLVE YOUNG MEN EXPRESSING
RAGE AGAINST INNOCENT PEOPLE OR
SOMETIMES NOT INNOCENT PEOPLE.

Steve says LET ME ASK YOU A BIT
OF A STRANGE FOLLOW-UP BECAUSE I
KNOW MY E-MAIL INBOX... I WON'T
SAY WAS INUNDATED BUT I
CERTAINLY HAD SOME E-MAILS
FROM PEOPLE AS SOON AS THIS
BROKE... SAYING, WELL, WE KNOW
WHAT THIS IS, RIGHT? THIS IS
INTERNATIONAL JIHADISM COME
TO OUR STREETS. AND CERTAINLY,
ON SOCIAL MEDIA, THERE WAS A
LOT OF THAT AS WELL.
TURNED OUT NOT TO BE THE CASE.
STRANGE QUESTION: ARE YOU GLAD
IT'S NOT THAT AS OPPOSED TO WHAT
IT MAY TURN OUT TO BE?

Jamil says TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, I LOOK
AT THESE THINGS AND FOR ME IT
REALLY DOESN'T MATTER SO MUCH
WHAT THE MOTIVATIONS ARE.
I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE
UNDERSTAND WHAT IDEOLOGIES ARE
AT PLAY IN OUR SOCIETY AND WHAT
IS TURNING PERSONAL ANGER AND
RESENTMENT INTO VIOLENCE.
BUT I CARE A LOT MORE ABOUT THE
YOUNG PEOPLE INVOLVED AND WHAT
IS THEIR EMOTIONAL STATE THAT'S
LEADING THEM TO VIOLENCE, AND
WHAT ARE THE COMMON THREADS
BETWEEN THESE DIFFERENT
IDEOLOGIES.
THAT'S WHAT CONCERNS ME.
BECAUSE I REALLY DO THINK THAT
IT'S IMPORTANT AFTER THESE
THINGS, WE DON'T REPLICATE THE
KIND OF, YOU KNOW, DIVISIVENESS
AND POLARIZATION AND TRIBALISM
THAT MAKES FOR THESE PROBLEMS IN
THE FIRST PLACE.
I REALLY DO BELIEVE THAT WE ARE
COLLECTIVELY... I WOULD NEVER
SAY WE ARE COLLECTIVELY TO BLAME
FOR THESE PROBLEMS, BUT I THINK
THAT WE COLLECTIVELY CAN HELP
SOLVE THEM, AND SEEING WHERE WE
CREATE AN ENVIRONMENT THAT
ALLOWS FOR A YOUNG PERSON TO BE
DRAWN TO IDEAS, YOU KNOW, AND
SOME OF THE MOST TERRIBLE IDEAS
IN OUR SOCIETY, TO MAKE SENSE OF
THEIR OWN LIVES... I MEAN, THAT
IS SOMETHING THAT I THINK WE
SHOULD ALL BE CONCERNED ABOUT.

Steve says PROACTIVELY,
PREVENTIVELY.
AHEAD OF TIME.

Jamil says IT DOESN'T MATTER IF IT'S AN
ALT-RIGHT, JIHADIST, NEO-NAZI...
THAT IS IMPORTANT TO KNOW WHY A
YOUNG PERSON DID WHAT THEY HAD
DONE.

Steve says THE MAN BEHIND THIS
IS A GUY NAMED ALEK MINASSIAN
AND HIS FACEBOOK PAGE APPARENTLY
READ THE INCEL, I-N-C-E-L, THE
INCEL REBELLION HAS ALREADY
BEGUN.
THIS TERM "INCEL" IS NEW TO A
LOT OF PEOPLE.
WHAT IS IT?

The caption changes to "Jooyoung Lee. University of Toronto."
Then, it changes again to "INCEL."

Jooyoung says YEAH, IT'S NEW TO ME.
I ACTUALLY HAD NEVER HEARD OF IT
UNTIL THE POST WENT VIRAL AND
PEOPLE STARTING READING UP ABOUT
INCEL.
FROM MY UNDERSTANDING IT STANDS
FOR "INVOLUNTARY CELIBATE,"
WHICH IS A SHORTHAND FOR A
COMMUNITY OF PEOPLE ONLINE WHO
ARE FRUSTRATED.
THESE ARE YOUNG MEN, MOSTLY
WHITE MEN, I THINK, WHO ARE
FRUSTRATED BY THEIR INABILITY TO
CONNECT TO WOMEN, TO HAVE SEXUAL
RELATIONSHIPS WITH WOMEN, AND
THERE IS THIS BELIEF AND FEELING
OF ENTITLEMENT THAT THESE MEN
FEEL AS IF, WHY AM I NOT GETTING
MINE?
AND THERE'S A WHOLE KIND OF
COMMUNITY THAT EXISTS IN PLACES
LIKE REDDIT AND 4CHAN OF THESE
KINDS OF PEOPLE.

Steve says THE NUMBER 4,
C-H-A-N.
ONE OF THOSE WEB SITES WHERE A
LOT OF DISAFFECTED PEOPLE HANG OUT.

Jooyoung says EXACTLY.

Steve says ARE THEY MOSTLY
YOUNG PEOPLE PART OF THIS INCEL
REBELLION.

Jooyoung says IT'S HARD TO GET THE
DEMOGRAPHICS OF WHO IS ACTUALLY
ACCESSING THESE KINDS OF SITES,
BUT FROM THE ACCOUNTS THAT I'VE
BEEN READING AND MY COLLEAGUES
HAVE BEEN READING, IT DOES SEEM
THAT MOST OF THE USERS ARE...
FALL WITHIN THAT YOUNGER
DEMOGRAPHIC, 18 TO 30 YEARS OLD.
WE ALSO KNOW FROM CRIMINOLOGY
THAT THIS IS A VERY PRECARIOUS
TIME IN THE LIFE COURSE, WHERE
YOUNG PEOPLE ARE SUSCEPTIBLE TO
INFLUENCE AND WHERE THEY'RE SORT
OF TRYING TO FIGURE OUT THEIR
WAY IN THE WORLD, AND SO IT
SEEMS LIKE THESE SITES AND THESE
COMMUNITIES ARE REALLY A
BREEDING GROUND FOR A LOT OF
HATRED AND MISOGYNY TOWARDS
WOMEN AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK
THERE WAS A FIGURE THAT SAID
THERE WERE 40,000 MEMBERS WHO
IDENTIFY AS PART OF THIS
MOVEMENT, AT LEAST ONLINE, AND
THAT'S NOT COUNTING OTHER MEN
WHO MIGHT ALSO FEEL AN AFFINITY
TO THE IDEAS AND ATTITUDES THAT
ARE SHARED IN THESE KINDS OF PLACES.

Steve says WE SHOULD OBVIOUSLY
POINT OUT THAT THE POLICE HAVE
NOT YET CONFIRMED THAT THAT IS
THE MOTIVE FOR THIS.
BUT IN LIGHT OF THE FACEBOOK
POSTING, PEOPLE ARE DRAWING THIS
CONCLUSION AT THIS STAGE.
JUDITH, I WANT TO FOLLOW UP WITH YOU.
HELP US UNDERSTAND THE
SOCIOLOGICAL PHENOMENON WHEREBY
SOME MEN FEEL THE NEED TO BAND
TOGETHER UNDER A BANNER SUCH AS INCEL?
WHAT IS THAT?

Judith says YEAH.
I MEAN, IT WAS FASCINATING THAT
THERE'S A KIND OF LARGER
ECOSYSTEM OF ENTITLEMENT THAT
THE SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTRE
HAS REALLY ENABLED MANY OF US
SCHOLARS TO SEE THAT THIS GENDER
IDEOLOGY FALLS INTO, AND IT'S
REALLY ABOUT THE TRANSFORMATIONS
IN SOCIETY THAT HAVE BEEN
HAPPENING OVER THE LAST 50
YEARS.
SO BIG SHIFTS IN THE ECONOMY.
BIG SHIFTS IN WHAT A JOB IS.
SHIFTS IN CIVIL RIGHTS.
AND SHIFTS IN GENDER ROLES HAVE
MADE FOR A LOT MORE FREEDOM.
AND SO MANY GROUPS THAT FEEL
THAT THEIR PLACE IN SOCIETY IS
NOT WHAT THEIR GRANDFATHER'S
PLACE WAS, ARE LOOKING TO BLAME
SOMEONE.
SO IMMIGRANTS ARE TAKING THE
JOBS THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN FOR
ME.
SUCCESSFUL MEN, LIKE ALPHA
MALES... THEY CALL THEMSELVES
BETA MALES... ALPHA MALES GET A
DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBER OF THE
BEST WOMEN AND WE ARE LEFT WITH
NONE, WHEREAS IN PAST PERIODS,
WOMEN WOULD HAVE BEEN ASSIGNED
TO MEN IN ARRANGED MARRIAGE
SITUATIONS AND SO I WOULD HAVE
HAD SOMEONE BY NOW.
NOW I DON'T GET TO HAVE ANYONE.
SO THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF
IDEOLOGIES.
NOW THEY COULD AGAIN SAY, LIKE,
HOW IS IT THAT THE ECONOMY IS
STRUCTURED IN THIS WAY THAT
THERE AREN'T SAFE JOBS ANYMORE,
THAT THE JOBS THAT MY
GRANDFATHER COULD COUNT ON, I
CAN'T.
IT'S NEVER ABOUT SHIFTS IN
GLOBALIZATION AND THE ECONOMY.
IT'S THIS INTERWOVEN MIX OF
IMMIGRANTS ARE TAKING THE JOBS
AND OTHER MEN WHO HAVE BETTER
OPPORTUNITIES ARE TAKING THE
WOMEN.
AND SO I'M LEFT REALLY WITH NO
WAY TO MARK MY MASCULINITY.

Steve says APPARENTLY IT SOUNDS
LIKE IT'S ALWAYS SOMEBODY ELSE'S FAULT.

Judith says RIGHT, RIGHT.
THERE'S A WONDERFUL SCHOLAR WHO
WROTE A BOOK CALLED MODERN
MISOGYNY AT THE UNIVERSITY OF
HOUSTON AND SHE HAS STUDIED HOW
MEN FEEL ENTITLED TO MANY MORE
THINGS THAN WOMEN DO.
SO THERE ARE MANY LONELY WOMEN
IN THE WORLD, RIGHT, WHO
PROBABLY SHARE THE SAME KINDS OF
CONCERNS: WHY IS IT THAT I HAVE
TO GO OUT THERE AND DATE?
I DON'T FEEL SUCCESSFUL.
BUT THEY DON'T FEEL THAT THEY'RE
ENTITLED TO THAT NECESSARILY.
THEY THINK, WELL, I GUESS I
BETTER ENJOY OTHER THINGS.
AND THEY DON'T FEEL THAT SOMEONE
HAS TO PAY FOR THE FACT THAT
THEY'VE BEEN FORSAKEN.

Steve says LET'S PLAY THIS...
LET'S DO THIS FACEBOOK POSTING
RIGHT NOW. THIS IS FROM
CATHERINE McDONALD WHO IS A
GLOBAL TELEVISION REPORTER,
AND SHE TWEETED THIS...

A tweet by Catherine McDonald pops up on screen briefly. It reads "Facebook has confirmed to @globalnewsto that the post I tweeted last night allegedly written by Alek Minassian was authentic. Comment: 'This is a terrible tragedy... We have found and immediately deleted the suspect's Facebook account.' – Facebook Spokesperson."

Steve continues JAMIL, I'D LIKE TO GET YOUR
THOUGHTS ON YOUR BELIEF ON THE
ROLE THAT SOCIAL MEDIA HAS
PLAYED IN ALL OF THIS.

The caption changes to "Jamil Jivani, @jamiljivani."

Jamil says WELL, THE INCEL GROUP WE WERE
TALKING ABOUT JUST NOW IS AN
EXAMPLE OF WHAT IS I THINK NEW
ABOUT FACING VIOLENCE AND HATRED
TODAY AS COMPARED TO A COUPLE OF
DECADES AGO PERHAPS, WHICH IS
THAT NOW IT IS EASY FOR ORGANIC
ONLINE COMMUNITIES TO FORM
AROUND GRIEVANCES AND
FRUSTRATIONS TO THE POINT WHERE
THEY CAN BE HOW YOUNG PEOPLE
IDENTIFY THEMSELVES.
SO FEELINGS OF DISSATISFACTION
THAT PREVIOUSLY MIGHT HAVE
PASSED OR FEELINGS THAT WE MIGHT
HAVE BEEN COMPELLED TO WORK
THROUGH ON OUR OWN OR SPEAK TO
OTHER PEOPLE ABOUT OR LOOK IN
THE MIRROR AND SAY MAYBE I NEED
TO CHANGE MY LIFE OR I NEED TO
DO SOMETHING DIFFERENTLY.
NOW YOU GET TO GO ONLINE AND
FIND OTHER PEOPLE THAT AFFIRM
THAT NEGATIVE FEELING YOU HAVE
AND TELL YOU IT'S WORTH RALLYING
AROUND.
IT'S SOMETHING IN A PREVIOUS
GENERATION YOU MIGHT HAVE SAID
THIS HAS GOT TO LEAVE MY LIFE.
NOW YOU'RE EMBRACING IT.
THAT IS VERY DANGEROUS BECAUSE
WHAT IT MEANS IS YOUR IDENTITY
AS A YOUNG PERSON IS BEING
FORMED WITH NEGATIVITY AT ITS
CORE, AND THAT IS, YOU KNOW,
ALSO INTRODUCING A SET OF TOOLS
TO WORK THROUGH YOUR PROBLEMS
THAT ARE LEADING TO DISASTROUS
CONCLUSIONS, RIGHT?
THEY'RE NOT GETTING TO A
POSITIVE FUTURE WHERE YOU CAN
IMAGINE YOUR LIFE BEING BETTER.
IT'S ACTUALLY MAKING YOU FEEL
LIKE THESE NEGATIVE FEELINGS
YOU'RE DEALING WITH AS A YOUNG
PERSON MIGHT BE THE WAY YOU
EXIST, AND THAT IS A SCARY
THOUGHT BECAUSE THAT IS
PARTIALLY HOW A YOUNG PERSON
ACTS IN WAYS THAT BRING
FINALITY, RIGHT?
THAT YOU ARE SO ANGRY NOW THAT
YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE DECISIONS
AND COMMIT TO BEHAVIOURS THAT
MIGHT DETERMINE THE REST OF YOUR
FUTURE.
THE IDEA THAT YOU KNOW YOURSELF
WELL ENOUGH THAT YOU CAN COMMIT
TO THAT KIND OF DECISION-MAKING
IS SCARY TO THINK A YOUNG PERSON
THINKS THAT WAY, BUT THAT'S THE
REALITY OF HOW SO MANY ARE
FEELING RIGHT NOW.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: TVO.org. Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, YouTube, Periscope, Instagram."

Steve says EITHER OF YOU TWO A
BIG FACEBOOK PERSON?
A LITTLE BIT OF FACEBOOK?

The caption changes to "We Reddit online."

Jamil says YEAH.

Steve says I WONDER WHETHER YOU
THOUGHT IT WAS WISE FOR FACEBOOK
TO DELETE THE ACCOUNT AND TAKE
IT DOWN RIGHT AWAY INASMUCH AS,
IF PEOPLE WERE ABLE TO LOOK AT
HIS ACCOUNT, THEY MIGHT LEARN
SOMETHING MORE ABOUT HIM THAT
MIGHT BE HELPFUL IN ALL OF THIS.
I DON'T KNOW.
WHAT DO YOU THINK?

The caption changes to "Jooyoung Lee, @theyoungjoo."

Jooyoung says MY SUSPICION IS THAT FACEBOOK
IS IN THIS KIND OF DAMAGE
CONTROL MODE AFTER ALL OF THE
REVELATIONS ABOUT, YOU KNOW,
RUSSIAN MEDDLING IN THE U.S.
ELECTIONS SO I THINK THEY'RE
TRYING TO DO EVERYTHING THEY CAN
IN THIS MOMENT TO SPIN P.R.
THAT'S POSITIVE IN THEIR IMAGE.
BUT IF I COULD JUST GO BACK TO
THE POINT TO ADD A LITTLE MORE
NUANCE TO THIS DISCUSSION ABOUT
INCELS AND ONLINE FORUMS.
I KNOW THAT IN THIS MOMENT WE'RE
SORT OF HYPER-AWARE OF THE
DANGERS OF THESE FORUMS AND THAT
WE HAVE AN EXAMPLE OF A PERSON
WHO MAY HAVE BEEN INCITED TO
VIOLENCE BECAUSE HE'S BEING
ENCOURAGED BY OTHERS WHO SHARE
HIS KINDS OF ATTITUDES TOWARDS
WOMEN OR TOWARDS THE WORLD IN
GENERAL, BUT THERE'S ANOTHER
SIDE TO THESE FORUMS AS WELL.
WE KNOW, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT THE
VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO
IDENTIFY WITH THIS GROUP OR WHO
EVEN HOLD, YOU KNOW, DESPICABLE
VIEWS TOWARDS WOMEN AND TOWARDS
RACIAL MINORITIES WILL NEVER GO
OUT AND DO A MASS KILLING,
RIGHT?
AND THESE ONLINE FORUMS ARE ALSO
A SPACE FOR VICTIMS OF VIOLENCE
TO CONNECT WITH ONE ANOTHER.
THEY'RE ALSO A SPACE FOR LONELY
MEN WHO ARE SOCIALLY AWKWARD AND
DON'T HAVE A LOT OF FRIENDS IN
THEIR EVERYDAY LIFE...

Steve says LET ME PICK UP ON
THE FIRST THING YOU SAID.
ARE YOU SAYING THIS IS A SAFE
PLACE FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE TO GO
AND BLOW OFF SOME STEAM?

Jooyoung says IT CAN BE.
I GUESS I'M SAYING I'M HESITANT
TO PAINT REDDIT AND 4CHAN WITH A
BROAD BRUSH AT THIS MOMENT.
I THINK THEY SHOULD BE
MONITORING FOR ACTIVITIES THAT
COULD LEAD TO ACTUAL VIOLENCE,
THAT'S FOR SURE.
BUT THE AVERAGE PERSON WHO IS
GOING ONTO THESE SITES IS NOT
NECESSARILY GOING TO BE THE NEXT
VAN ATTACK PERSON OR SERIAL
KILLER.

Steve says LET ME TAKE IT EVEN
FURTHER.
DO YOU THINK THAT THESE ONLINE
COMMUNITIES ACTUALLY PLAY SOME
CONSTRUCTIVE OR POSITIVE ROLE IN
SOCIETY?

Judith says THOSE, I DON'T, NO.
I MEAN, I THINK THE KINDS OF...
MATTERS SHAPING A CULTURE AND
BUILDING A CULTURE MATTERS,
RIGHT?
AND THE KINDS OF VIOLENCE THAT
IS TALKED ABOUT, LIKE WOMEN NEED
TO BE KILLED AND THEN YOU NEED
TO HAVE SEX WITH THEM.
THE GRAPHIC NATURE.
THE CALLING WOMEN FEMOIDS OR
FEMBOTS.
IT'S PROCESSES OF DEHUMANIZATION
THAT THEN ENABLE PEOPLE A
LANGUAGE TO THINK ABOUT AND, YOU
KNOW, ADDITIONALLY, WHEN HE SAID
IT'S THE REBELLION.
THERE'S A MILITARIZED LANGUAGE
USED THROUGHOUT THIS.
"I'M THE SOLDIER.
I'M REPORTING TO THE SERGEANT.
WE'RE HAVE AN INSURRECTION.
IT'S A REBELLION.
IT'S WAR."
LANGUAGE MATTERS.
SO MANY THREATS ARE MADE ON
THESE SITES.
AND NO ONE IN LAW ENFORCEMENT ON
THE UPPER DIVISIONS OF LAW
ENFORCEMENT HAS REALLY BEEN
TAKING THESE GROUPS ON, WHEREAS
FEMINIST GROUPS, PEACE GROUPS,
BLACK LIVES MATTER, IN THE U.S.,
IN CANADA, HAVE BEEN MONITORED,
YOU KNOW, TO NO END.
I'M SURE THERE'S A FILE ON ME
BECAUSE I CARE ABOUT PEACE AND I
DO WORK ON WOMEN'S EQUALITY.
IS THERE A FILE ON ANYONE WHO
MAKES THREATS REPEATEDLY IN
THESE FORUMS SUCH AS 4CHAN?
NOT AT ALL.
SO WE ARE BEHIND IN TERMS OF
MONITORING, IN TERMS OF
EVALUATING WHAT IS A REAL THREAT
OF VIOLENCE AND WHAT IS A REAL
THREAT TO INNOCENT PEOPLE IN
SOCIETY.

Steve says IF YOU BAN AN ONLINE
COMMUNITY, DOES THAT ACHIEVE ANYTHING?

Jamil says WELL, WHAT I THINK WE'RE
GOING TO SEE WITH THE AFTERMATH
OF THIS WEEK'S TRAGEDY IS THAT
YOU CAN BAN SOME OF THESE
GROUPS, YOU CAN DELETE THEM, BUT
THEY WILL EMERGE ELSEWHERE.
IN SOME WAYS THIS MIRRORS THE
FREE SPEECH DEBATE, RIGHT, WHICH
IS THAT YOU CAN TRY TO CONTROL
WHAT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO SAY BUT
PEOPLE WILL FIND OTHER WAYS TO
COMMUNICATE...

Steve says WHACK-A-MOLE.

Jamil says YES.
MY VIEW AS IT PERTAINS TO YOUNG
PEOPLE IS WE HAVE CULTURALLY
CREATED AN EXPECTATION THAT YOU
HAVE ALMOST A DOUBLE LIFE.
YOUR ONLINE LIFE YOU CAN SAY
THINGS AND TREAT PEOPLE IN A WAY
THAT YOU WOULDN'T IN CIVIL
DISCOURSE...

Steve says BECAUSE IT'S ANONYMOUS.

Jamil says EXACTLY.
AND WHAT THAT MEANS FOR A YOUNG
PERSON, THOUGH, IS THAT WE... A
LOT OF ADULTS LEAVE THEM TO
THEIR OWN DEVICES IN TERMS OF
WHAT THEY WILL READ ONLINE.
AND WHAT YOU FIND IN A LOT OF
THE YOUNG MEN WHO ARE
RADICALIZED BY THE IDEAS THEY
READ ON THE INTERNET IS NO ADULT
WAS AWARE OF WHAT THEY WERE
READING IN.
THEY WERE LIVING IN SEPARATE
UNIVERSE, A UNIVERSE OF IDEAS.
PENETRATING THAT IS WHAT I THINK
IS MOST IMPORTANT.
I DON'T THINK YOU'RE GOING TO
COMPLETELY CONTROL WHAT A YOUNG
PERSON CAN FIND ON THE INTERNET.
YOU CAN PROVIDE MENTORSHIP AND
STEWARDSHIP AND CRITICALLY
THINKING OF WHAT THEY FIND
ONLINE AND WE'RE NOT DOING A
GREAT JOB ON THAT AT ALL.

Steve says JUDITH, THE MAN AT
THE CENTRE OF THIS, ALEK
MINASSIAN, IS THOUGHT TO HAVE
BEEN SOMEWHERE ON OR IS THOUGHT
TO BE SOMEWHERE ON THE AUTISM
SPECTRUM.
MAYBE HE HAS ASPERGER'S,
SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
A NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO CAME INTO
CONTACT WITH HIM OVER THE YEARS
DESCRIBED HIM AS BEING SOCIALLY
AWKWARD, NOT SPEAKING AT ALL.
HOW RELEVANT IN YOUR JUDGMENT IS
IT TO FOCUS ON THE MENTAL HEALTH
ANGLE OF THIS STORY?

The caption changes to "A question of mental health."

Judith says WELL, THERE ARE SEPARATE
CATEGORIES HERE AND JOOYOUNG CAN
INTERRUPT BECAUSE HE ACTUALLY
HAS WORKED WITH SOME OF THESE
POPULATIONS TOO.
BUT THERE'S MENTAL ILLNESS.
THEN THERE'S AUTISM SPECTRUM.
AND THEN THERE'S CULTURE.
AND THOSE ARE THREE VERY
SEPARATE THINGS.
I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT
MEN THEMSELVES ARE CALLING OUR
ATTENTION TO ON THESE SITES THAT
I DO FIND REALLY IMPORTANT AND
THAT I AM PAYING ATTENTION TO IS
THAT MEN WHO ARE ON THE AUTISM
SPECTRUM FEEL BULLIED AND THEY
FEEL SOCIALLY DISLOCATED AND
THEY FEEL IGNORED IN SCHOOL.
AND THAT CAN MAKE AN ONLINE
COMMUNITY MORE ATTRACTIVE TO
THEM.
AND I'M THINKING TOO OF THE
YOUNG MAN WHO COMMITTED THE
MURDERS IN THE MOSQUE 6 YEARS
AGO IN QUEBEC CITY.
TEACHERS SAID, OF COURSE, HE WAS
BULLIED, HE WAS SOCIALLY
OSTRACIZED, HE DIDN'T FIT IN.
SIMILARLY THE YOUNG MAN WHO SHOT
TEN PEOPLE AT THE COMMUNITY
COLLEGE IN OREGON IN 2015, HIS
MOTHER AND HE ALSO SAID THAT
THEY WERE SOCIALLY DISLOCATED
BECAUSE OF AUTISM SPECTRUM.
SO YOU DO SEE THIS...

Steve says ARE THEY BOTH THE
SAME THING, THE YOUNG MAN AT
SANDY HOOK...

Judith says I DON'T KNOW.
IT WOULDN'T SURPRISE ME.
SO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MEN WHO
FEEL THAT THEY ARE OUTSIDERS,
THAT THE COMMUNITY WORKS HARD TO
EXCLUDE THEM, THAT THEY DON'T
HAVE THE TOOLS TO BECOME
INTEGRATED, AND THAT THE SOCIAL
MEDIA SPHERES ARE THE ONLY
PLACES THAT THEY CAN, YOU KNOW,
FIT IN.
I THINK THAT IS SOMETHING WE
REALLY NEED TO PAY ATTENTION TO.

Steve says DO YOU WANT TO WEIGH
IN ON THAT AS WELL?

Jooyoung says SURE.
SO AS MY COLLEAGUE POINTED OUT,
BEFORE I WENT TO GRAD SCHOOL I
TAUGHT KIDS ON THE SPECTRUM,
ELEMENTARY SCHOOL KIDS, AND I
THINK ONE THING I WANT TO PUT
OUT THERE, BECAUSE I SEE IT
POPPING UP ON MY SOCIAL MEDIA,
IS THAT THERE IS THIS SORT OF
PRESUMED LINK BETWEEN A PERSON
ON THE SPECTRUM AND VIOLENT
BEHAVIOUR, RIGHT?
THERE'S DEFINITELY NOT A LINK,
SCIENTIFICALLY SPEAKING, THAT
LINK HAS NEVER BEEN MADE.
BUT WHAT I THINK IS IMPORTANT IS
THIS CASE SHOWS US THAT IT'S NOT
JUST ABOUT THIS BEING ON THE
SPECTRUM OR NOT.
DETAILS ARE STILL UNFOLDING, BUT
THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENT KINDS
OF MENTAL HEALTH CONDITIONS THAT
CAN SEND A PERSON INTO A KIND OF
FRENZY AND A RAGE WHERE THEY
WOULD DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS.
SO I THINK... YOU KNOW, AS MORE
DETAILS UNFOLD, THE THING THAT
STRUCK ME WAS THAT WHEN THE
OFFICER WHO DIDN'T SHOOT HIM
APPROACHED HIM, THE GUY SEEMED
TO BE PROVOKING HIM.
HE KEPT REACHING FOR HIS WALLET...

Steve says HE WAS SAYING "KILL
ME, KILL ME."

Jooyoung says THIS REMINDED ME OF VARIOUS
MASS SHOOTINGS WHERE THE RAMPAGE
WAS DONE BEFORE A FINAL ACT OF
SUICIDE.
THERE'S A TERM SUICIDE BY COP
AND POLICE INTERVENTION.
SO MY SUSPICION, AND THIS IS ALL
SPECULATION, IS THAT THIS MIGHT
HAVE BEEN SOMEBODY WHO WAS
SUFFERING ALSO FROM DEPRESSION
AS WELL, AND WE KNOW AGAIN THAT
DEPRESSION DOES NOT NECESSARILY
CAUSE VIOLENCE, BUT IT'S ONE OF
MANY DIFFERENT KINDS OF THINGS
THAT CAN PUSH SOMEBODY CLOSER TO
THIS EDGE.

Steve says JUDITH, I DO WANT TO
FOLLOW UP WITH THIS ANGLE,
BECAUSE I HEAR FROM TEACHERS
WHO, YOU KNOW, FEEL VERY
OVERBURDENED AND WHO SAY, YOU
KNOW, YOU NOT ONLY WANT US TO
TEACH ENGLISH AND MATH BUT YOU
WANT US TO BE SURROGATE PARENTS
FOR KIDS AND BE ON TOP OF
EVERYTHING THAT GOES ON IN THEIR
LIVES 24... ANYWAY, BOTTOM LINE:
IS IT REASONABLE TO EXPECT THE
EDUCATION SYSTEM TO TAKE ON THIS
ADDED ROLE NOW OF BEING ABLE TO
SORT OF FIGURE OUT WHO'S GOING
TO BE THE NEXT KID THAT SNAPS
AND TAKES OUT A WHOLE BUNCH OF
PEOPLE IN A VAN?

Judith says RIGHT.
I DO THINK TEACHERS AND PARENTS
ARE NOT DOING THEIR JOBS IN THIS
REGARD.
I DO THINK THAT TOO MANY OF US
SEE AN ALARM BELL AND JUST KIND
OF ARE OVERWHELMED BY THE WORK,
AND I THINK IF TEACHERS THOUGHT
OF CALLING PARENTS FOR 20
MINUTES EVERY NIGHT.
AFTER DINNER, CALL PARENTS.
ANYONE YOU THINK... "THIS IS
JUST NOT GOING WELL."
I NEED TO SET OFF ALARM BELLS
HERE.
I NEED TO CREATE A BRIDGE OF
COMMUNICATION BETWEEN ME AND THE
FAMILY.
I NEED TO GET A BETTER SENSE OF
WHAT'S GOING ON THERE. I NEED TO
BRING IN HEALTH PROFESSIONALS.
THERE ARE SOCIAL WORKERS.
THERE ARE PSYCHOLOGISTS AT THE
SCHOOLS.

Steve says ISN'T THAT WHAT
TEACHER-PARENT MEETINGS ARE FOR?
ISN'T THAT SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN THEN?

Judith says RIGHT.
I THINK IT HAS TO HAPPEN MUCH
MORE REGULARLY, THAT TEACHERS
SHOULD THINK OF CONTACTING
PARENTS AS A KIND OF HABITUAL
PART OF THE JOB.

Steve says HERE IS JONATHAN KAY
WRITING IN THE
NATIONAL POST
TODAY. SHELDON, LET'S BRING THIS
GRAPHIC UP...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Jumping to judgement?" The quote reads "Just as many Canadian conservatives treated Parliament Hill killer Michael Zehaf-Bibeau as a one-man vanguard for a coming Islamist insurgency, social media this week was afire with claims that Minassian is a men's-rights culture warrior channelling a cult of toxic misogyny. It all reminds me of the hysterics who responded to the 1999 Columbine High School massacre by insisting that Eric Harris and Fylan Klebold were goth occultists and 'Trench coat mafia' members waging a terrorist war on jocks and Christians."
Quoted from Jonathan Kay, National Post. April 26, 2018.

Steve says JAMIL, EVERYBODY IS
SEARCHING FOR AN EXPLANATION, RIGHT?
WE ALL WANT TO KNOW WHY.
YOU KNOW, IF THERE'S NO
EXPLANATION... MAYBE THE COPS
WILL GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS
EVENTUALLY.
BUT MAYBE THEY WON'T.
AND MAYBE WE AREN'T GOING TO
KNOW.
HOW DO WE PROCESS ALL OF THAT IF
AT THE END OF THE DAY THERE'S NO ANSWER?

The caption changes to "Searching for answers."

Jamil says I THINK IT'S SCARY FOR A LOT
OF PEOPLE TO THINK WE MIGHT NOT
HAVE AN EASY EXPLANATION FOR
THIS AND THAT THERE MIGHT NOT BE
A VERY CLEAR CAUSE AND EFFECT
THAT WE CAN POINT TO.
ACTUALLY ON MONDAY, THE DAY OF
THIS TRAGEDY, ONE OF THE PARIS
ATTACKERS FROM 2015 WAS
SENTENCED AND THAT HEADLINE KIND
OF GOT LOST IN ALL THE NEWS.
AND I THOUGHT ABOUT IT BECAUSE I
THOUGHT A LOT ABOUT THE PARIS
ATTACKS AND THE RESEARCH I'VE
DONE AND REALIZED WE DON'T KNOW
ANY MORE ABOUT HIS MOTIVATIONS
THAN WE DID A YEAR AGO.
HE'S BEEN IN CUSTODY.
HE'S BEEN THROUGH THE COURTS.

Steve says REMIND EVERYBODY
WHAT HE DID.

Jamil says HE ORGANIZED THE 2015 PARIS
ATTACKS WHERE MORE THAN 500
PEOPLE WERE KILLED OR INJURED
THROUGH A SERIES OF ATTACKS
AROUND THE PARIS AREA, AND HE
WAS AN ISIS RECRUIT AND HIS
FRIENDS WERE ALL ISIS RECRUITS,
AND IT WAS, YOU KNOW, PROBABLY
ONE OF THE MOST PROLIFIC
JIHADIST ATTACKS IN THE WESTERN
WORLD OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS.
BUT HE'S BEEN IN CUSTODY FOR A
YEAR AND WE DON'T KNOW ANY MORE
ABOUT WHY HE JOINED ISIS, WE
DON'T KNOW ANY MORE ABOUT WHY HE
TURNED TO VIOLENCE.
I THOUGHT MAYBE THIS IS GOING TO
BE SIMILAR WHERE, YOU KNOW, THE
COURT PROCESS COULD UNFOLD, LAW
ENFORCEMENT COULD DO THEIR JOB,
AND YET WE STILL MIGHT NOT HAVE
ANY MORE ANSWERS.
I THINK THAT'S UNCOMFORTABLE FOR
PEOPLE.
BUT IT'S IMPORTANT I THINK A
REMINDER TO FOCUS ON WHAT DO WE
KNOW FOR SURE?
THE MORAL ACT OF KILLING PEOPLE
AND THE PROCESS OF COMING TO THE
CONCLUSION THAT IT'S JUSTIFIABLE
IS SOMETHING THAT WE KNOW FOR
SURE, RIGHT?
THE OTHER THING WE KNOW FOR SURE
IS THAT IN THIS INCIDENT WHERE
THERE'S VERY CLEARLY AN EXAMPLE
OF DEALING WITH YOUR
FRUSTRATIONS, YOUR HEALTH ISSUES
IN A TERRIFYING WAY, THERE'S
ALSO A POLICE OFFICER THAT
HANDLED THE SITUATION IN A WAY
THAT IS VERY COMMENDABLE.
AND IN THAT PROCESS, HE MODELLED
A NON-VIOLENT WAY THAT IS
IMPORTANT TO PAY ATTENTION TO.
WE SEE SO MANY IMAGES OF POLICE
OFFICERS THAT ARE KEEN TO PULL
OUT A GUN...

Steve says MOSTLY SOUTH OF THE BORDER.

Jamil says WE SEE THOSE SAME IMAGES HERE
AND THAT SHAPES OUR POLITICAL
CONVERSATION, MAYBE MORE THAT
WHAT HAPPENS BEYOND OUR BORDERS.
WHEN YOU THINK OF THAT AND SAY
HERE IS AN OFFICER WHO DIDN'T
TAKE THE EASY EXCUSE HE MIGHT
HAVE HAD TO HURT SOMEBODY,
DIDN'T SHOOT SOMEONE, AND
EXEMPLIFIED A WAY OF TREATING
SOMEONE IN CRISIS WITH I THINK
SOME REAL RESPONSIBILITY AND
CARE.
I THINK THOSE THINGS THAT WE
KNOW FOR SURE ARE REALLY
VALUABLE TO EXTRACT LESSONS FROM
AND TO THINK ABOUT WHAT MIGHT WE
TAKE FROM THIS TRAGEDY AND THESE
25 PEOPLE KILLED AND INJURED IN
TORONTO.
THAT COULD BE HELPFUL, RIGHT?
THAT WE CAN LEARN SOMETHING.
THAT WE CAN SHOW YOUNG PEOPLE
THAT ARE WAYS TO HANDLE THIS AND
DISCUSS THIS AND LEARN FROM IT
TO MAKE WAY FOR A BETTER
SOCIETY.
THAT'S WHAT WE KNOW FOR SURE.
I THINK THERE'S ACTUALLY FAR
MORE TO GAIN FROM IT THAN MAYBE
THEORIZING THINGS AND LETTING
OUR MINDS TRAVEL TO PLACES WE
DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE EVIDENCE
TO GO TO.

Steve says JOOYOUNG, 30 SECONDS TO GO.

Jooyoung says I THINK ANOTHER... JUST TO
BUILD ON MY COLLEAGUE'S POINT...
ANOTHER THING WE KNOW FOR SURE
IS THAT THIS PERSON HAD AN
AFFINITY TO THE INCEL MOVEMENT
AND WE KNOW FOR SURE THAT THERE
ARE LOTS OF MEN WHO FEEL
ALIENATED AND LONELY AND WE
SHOULD REALLY BE THINKING, HOW
CAN WE TEACH YOUNG MEN TO NOT BE
VIOLENT, TO NOT THINK THEIR
SENSE OF MANHOOD IS CONNECTED TO
SLEEPING WITH WOMEN, BEING ABLE
TO FIGHT OR EXPEL VIOLENCE ON
OTHER PEOPLE.
I THINK THAT THE LARGER
CONVERSATION IS NOT NECESSARILY
ABOUT SOCIAL MEDIA BUT IT'S
REALLY ABOUT, HOW CAN WE RAISE
BOYS TO BECOME BETTER MEN?

The caption changes to "Producer: Gregg Thulbeck, @GreggThurlbeck."

Steve says HEAR, HEAR.
THANKS, EVERYBODY, FOR THIS.
REALLY GRATEFUL FOR YOUR TIME
TONIGHT HERE ON TVO.
JAMIL JIVANI, VISITING PROFESSOR
FROM OSGOODE HALL LAW SCHOOL AND
WHOM WE WISH A SPEEDY RECOVERY
FROM ALL THE CHALLENGES YOU ARE
FACING RIGHT NOW.
THANK YOU, JAMIL, FOR COMING IN
TONIGHT. JUDITH TAYLOR FROM THE
UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO'S WOMEN
AND GENDER STUDIES INSTITUTE.
JOOYOUNG LEE, MUNK SCHOOL OF
GLOBAL AFFAIRS AT THE U OF T
AS WELL. THANKS, EVERYBODY.

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