Transcript: Vanity Fair Diaries | Jul 04, 2018

Nam sits in the studio. She's in her early forties, with shoulder length curly brown hair. She's wearing glasses and a black blazer over a green blouse.

A caption on screen reads "Inside Vanity Fair. Nam Kiwanuka, @namshine, @theagenda."

Nam says WHILE TINA BROWN HAS BEEN
DESCRIBED AS A "RED PORSCHE."
AND A "GOLD-DUST FAIRY," SHE
CONSIDERS HERSELF A MAGAZINE
ROMANTIC.
AT JUST 25 YEARS OLD, SHE WAS
EDITOR-IN-CHIEF FOR THE U.K.'S
TATLER
MAGAZINE BEFORE SHE
CROSSED THE POND TO REVIVE
VANITY FAIR
IN AMERICA.
SHE SHARES THOSE EARLY DAYS,
MISSING ENGLAND, AND THE ICONIC
MAGAZINE COVER OF A VERY
PREGNANT DEMI MOORE IN HER NEW BOOK...

A picture of the book appears briefly on screen. The cover is beige and reads "The Vanity Fair Diaries."
Tina is in her fifties, with short feathery blond hair. She's wearing a purple blazer over a white blouse, and pearl earrings.

Nam continues AND WE'RE PLEASED THAT IT BRINGS
HER TO OUR STUDIO TONIGHT.
IT IS SUCH A PLEASURE TO HAVE
YOU HERE.

Tina says THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

Nam says I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO OUR
CONVERSATION.
SO PEOPLE KEEP JOURNALS FOR
THEMSELVES, ASSUMINGLY.
NOW YOUR DIARIES ARE BEING
SHARED WITH THE MASSES.
WHY DO THAT?

The caption changes to "Tina Brown. Author, 'The Vanity Fair Diaries.'"
Then, it changes again to "An Englishwoman in new york."

Tina says IT'S INTERESTING, I MEAN, WHEN I
WROTE THESE DIARIES, THEY JUST
CAME TUMBLING OUT OF ME IN THIS
SORT OF NEED TO UNLOAD THE NEW
WORLD I WAS SUDDENLY PLUNGED
INTO, HAVING COME FROM LONDON.
IT WAS REALLY ME TALKING TO MY
INNER SELF, IN A SENSE, JUST TO
MAKE THINGS CLEAR TO MYSELF.
NOW, WHEN I READ THEM, I REALIZE
THAT THEY'RE SO MUCH A JOURNAL
OF BECOMING.
YOU KNOW, THEY'RE A STORY OF WHO
I WAS WHEN I FIRST CAME TO
AMERICA, MY HOPES AND DREAMS,
AND MY LACK OF KNOWLEDGE,
REALLY, OF THE PLACE, AND ANY OF
IT, AND MY SENSE OF LEARNING AND
HOW IT AFFECTED ME AT THE TIME.
AND THE DETAIL OF IT IN THE END
IS WHAT MADE ME FEEL I WANTED TO
PUBLISH THESE AS DIARIES.
BECAUSE IF YOU WROTE A MEMOIR OR
SUCH, YOU KNOW, YOU EXCISE
THINGS, AND YOU HAVE TO SORT OF
CONDENSE.
AND IT WAS SOMETHING ABOUT THE
DAILY DETAIL THAT MADE THEM,
I FELT, MUCH MORE COMPELLING TO
READ AS DIARIES.

Nam says DID YOU HAVE ANY ANXIETY ABOUT
SHARING CERTAIN PARTS OF YOUR LIFE?

Tina says WELL, I DID A SORT OF VERY CLOSE
EDIT OF THE DIARIES.
I MEAN, BUT WHAT I ACTUALLY
MAINLY EDITED OUT WAS THE SORT
OF WHINGEY, SELF-COMMUNION THAT
YOU DO IN A DIARY, WHEN YOU SORT
OF... YOU JUST... YOU OFTEN WHINGE
IN A DIARY, RIGHT?
I MEAN, YOU SORT OF WORRY AND
NIGGLE AT THINGS THAT AREN'T
THAT INTERESTING TO EVERYBODY ELSE.
SO, I HAD A SORT OF CRITERION.
IT WAS LIKE, "I THIS VERY
FUNNY, YOU KNOW?
IS THIS A CANDID SOMETHING THAT
I DOUBT TO SHARE, WHICH PROBABLY
MEANS IT'S INTERESTING?"
YOU KNOW, ARE THE CHARACTERS I'M
WRITING ABOUT COMPELLING ENOUGH?
I HAD THESE SORT OF... YOU KNOW,
AND I KEPT DOING ROUNDS OF
EDITING, SO IN THE END, IT
BECAME SOMETHING THAT I FELT WAS
REALLY ONLY MEETING THAT HIGH
BAR OF WHAT A READER WANTED, RIGHT?
I MEAN, NOBODY WANTS TO READ THE
INNER RUMINATIONS OF SOMEBODY
WHO'S, YOU KNOW, SOME
EGOMANIACAL SORT OF WORRIES.
THEY DON'T LIKE THAT.
BUT WHAT THEY WANNA HEAR IS LIKE
HOW DID THIS PERSON, YOU KNOW,
ADJUST AND BECOME SOMETHING?
AND WHO DID SHE MEET AND WHO
DOES SHE KNOW AND WHAT HAPPENED?

Nam says I MEAN, YOU MET A LOT OF
PEOPLE...

[TINA CHUCKLES]

Nam says...WHO ARE VERY FAMOUS, VERY
POWERFUL.
LOOKING BACK THOUGH IN THE
DIARIES, WERE YOU, I DON'T KNOW,
I GUESS WORRIED ABOUT WHAT SOME
OF THEM MIGHT SAY ABOUT HOW THEY
WERE PORTRAYED IN THE DIARIES?

Tina says WELL, I DID WORRY ABOUT SOME OF
THEM BECAUSE, YOU KNOW,
SOMETIMES PEOPLE DON'T KNOW WHAT
YOU'RE THINKING, RIGHT,
WHEN YOU'RE THINKING IT.
AND THERE HAVE BEEN A COUPLE OF
PEOPLE WHO SAID, YOU KNOW,
"I HAD NO IDEA THAT'S HOW YOU
FELT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, MY DAD."
OR WHATEVER.
AND, I MEAN... AND IT'S DIFFICULT
SOMETIMES TO DECIDE, "WELL, THIS
MAY NOT CAUSE HAPPINESS IN THE
PERSON WHO'S READING IT."
BUT AGAIN, I MADE VERY, VERY
SORT OF DETAILED JUDGMENTS ABOUT
IS THIS REALLY A NECESSARY PART
OF MY STORY?
AND I FELT IF IT PASSED THAT
TEST, THEN I HAD TO SHARE IT.

Nam says AND I GET THE SENSE THAT BEING
HONEST AND TRUTHFUL IS VERY
IMPORTANT TO YOU.

Tina says AS A WRITING VOICE, I WANT IT TO
BE AUTHENTIC, YOU KNOW?
I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY POINT
IN WRITING ABOUT YOUR OWN LIFE
UNLESS YOU'RE REAL, TRUTHFUL,
CANDID, AND TALK ABOUT YOUR
INSECURITIES WHICH... OF WHICH
THERE IS A LOT IN THE BOOK.
TALK ABOUT YOUR DOUBTS AND YOUR
SELF-DOUBTS BECAUSE IT'S BORING
TO HEAR... READ ABOUT SOMEBODY WHO
JUST KINDA SAILED THROUGH AND
NEVER HAD A DOUBT.
I MEAN, THAT JUST WOULDN'T BE
REAL, AND IT WOULDN'T BE TRUE.
ALL OF US ARE WRACKED BY
INSECURITIES.
IT'S JUST A QUESTION OF ARE WE
WILLING TO ADMIT IT?
AND IT'S SUCH A RELIEF TO BE
YOURSELF.
YOU KNOW, THERE IS A KIND OF
WONDERFUL RELAXATION, IN A
SENSE, ABOUT JUST ADMITTING
EVERYTHING ABOUT YOURSELF.
AND IF PEOPLE DON'T LIKE IT,
WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT, HASTA LA VISTA.

[LAUGHS]

Nam says WELL, YOU TELL THIS REALLY GREAT
STORY AT THE BEGINNING OF THE
DIARIES ABOUT YOUR PARENTS.
WHEN YOU WERE A TEEN, YOU WERE
KICKED OUT OF SEVERAL SCHOOLS.
AND YOUR DAD AND MOM WENT TO
PICK YOU UP AT ONE OF THESE
SCHOOLS, AND YOUR DAD SAID TO
THE HEADMASTER, OR HEADMISTRESS,
AND... "YOU KNOW, I FEEL VERY SAD
FOR YOU THAT YOU DON'T GET THIS
UNUSUAL GIRL."

[CHUCKLES]

Nam says IS YOUR FOUNDATION FOR BEING
CONFIDENT FROM YOUR PARENTS?

Tina says WELL, I DID FEEL COMPLETELY
WRAPPED IN MY PARENTS' SORT OF
LOVE AND APPROVAL, I SUPPOSE,
YOU KNOW?
I MEAN, I... YOU KNOW, MY PARENTS
JUST ALWAYS HAD MY BACK,
IF YOU LIKE.
AND, I MEAN, IT DIDN'T MEAN THEY
DIDN'T GIVE ME HELL, OR WHEN I
GOT HOME, THEY DIDN'T ME, YOU
KNOW, A REAL DRESSING DOWN,
BUT CERTAINLY WHEN IT CAME TO ME
VERSUS THE WORLD, THEY ALWAYS
HAD MY BACK, YOU KNOW?
THEY WERE THERE FOR ME.
AND MY FATHER, YOU KNOW, HE WAS
A MOVIE PRODUCER, AND HE
UNDERSTOOD HOW EXPOSED, IN A
WAY, PEOPLE OF A CREATIVE
TEMPERAMENT ARE.
YOU KNOW, HE UNDERSTOOD MY OWN
SENSITIVITIES, I THINK, AND HOW
I WAS A VERY CREATIVE, UNUSUAL
KID, I MEAN, BECAUSE I WAS VERY
QUESTIONING OF AUTHORITY ALWAYS,
IN A WAY THAT WAS SORT OF AHEAD
OF MY YEARS.
AND FRANKLY, I MEAN, HALF THE
TIME HE FELT, AND MY MOTHER
FELT, I WAS RIGHT.
I MEAN, THESE RIDICULOUS, YOU
KNOW, POSH BOARDING SCHOOLS WITH
THEIR SILLY RULES AND THEIR KIND
OF RIDICULOUS...

Nam says I THINK ONE OF THEM YOU GOT INTO
TROUBLE BECAUSE THEY WANTED YOU
TO WEAR TWO PAIRS OF KNICKERS,
AND YOU SAID NO.

Tina says THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.
NO, I LED A DEMONSTRATION ACROSS
THE LACROSSE PITCH...

[NAM CHUCKLES]

Tina says...BECAUSE WE WERE MADE TO WEAR
TWO PAIRS OF UNDERWEAR AT
BOARDING SCHOOL, AND YOU
COULD... ONLY ALLOWED TO CHANGE
THE OUTER UNDERWEAR THREE TIMES
A WEEK, AND SO I DIDN'T LIKE
THAT.
I THOUGHT IT WAS RIDICULOUS.
SO, I LED A DEMONSTRATION ACROSS
THE LACROSSE PITCH SAYING,
"NICKERS OUT, OUT OUT, KNICKERS
IN, IN, IN."
EXCEPT UNFORTUNATELY, IT WAS ME
THAT WAS OUT.

[BOTH LAUGH]

TINA SAYS THAT WAS THE LAST TIME
THAT I WAS KICKED OUT.
IT WAS LIKE, "JUST GET HER OUT
OF HERE.
JUST GET HER OUT."
NAM laughs and says WELL...

Tina says "WE ARE DONE; WE ARE OVER HER."

Nam says WELL, EVENTUALLY YOU LEAVE THE
U.K. AND YOU MOVE TO AMERICA,
AND YOUR DIARY ENTRIES
BEGIN ON APRIL 10, 1983
WITH YOU COMING TO MEET S.I.
NEWHOUSE... THE LEGENDARY HEAD
OF CONDÉ NAST PUBLISHING.
WHY WOULD HE WANT TO MEET YOU?

Tina says WELL, HE HAD ALREADY BOUGHT THE
TATLER
MAGAZINE WHICH WAS MY
FIRST JOURNALIST EFFORT.

NAM SAYS AT JUST 25.

The caption changes to "Tina Brown, @TinaBrownLM."

Tina says AT JUST 25.
I MEAN, THE
TATLER
AT THAT TIME
WAS THIS LITTLE TINY, SHINY
SHEET, AND AN AUSTRALIAN REAL
ESTATE TYCOON WHO COME IN TO
LONDON AND THOUGHT, "I WANT TO
BE A PUBLISHER," AS PEOPLE DO,
AND SO HE BOUGHT THIS TITLE, THE
TO MAKE IT INTO A REAL GLOSSY
MAGAZINE LIKE VOGUE,
AND HE TRIED TO HIRE AN EDITOR.
AND I WAS A YOUNG WRITING
JOURNALIST, JUST OUT OF OXFORD,
AND I THINK HE APPROACHED EVERY
EDITOR IN, YOU KNOW, LONDON TO
DO THIS THING, AND EVERYBODY
LAUGHED AND SAID THEY WOULDN'T
TOUCH IT WITH THE BARGEPOLE, BUT
I HAD BECOME DESIROUS OF HAVING
MY OWN SORT OF LITTLE PLATFORM
BECAUSE I ALREADY FELT THAT I
WOULD RATHER BE THE PERSON
DECIDING WHAT OTHER PEOPLE WROTE
THAN HAVING TO SORT OF SELL MY
WRITING TO OTHER PEOPLE.
I HAD A STRONG SENSE OF WHAT I
THOUGHT WAS INTERESTING.
AND SO WHEN HE STARTED TO LOOK
AROUND FOR A YOUNG EDITOR,
SOMEBODY RECOMMENDED HE MEET ME;
ALTHOUGH ACTUALLY, I HAD NEVER
EDITED ANYTHING, BUT I BEGAN TO
MAKE A REPUTATION AS A WRITER.
AND AS SOON AS... I SAW
IMMEDIATELY IT WOULD BE A GREAT
OPPORTUNITY.
I THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, "IT'S A
FAILING THING, BUT IT WILL BE MY
THING; IT'LL BE MY SHOW."

Nam says I READ SOMEWHERE THAT YOU HAD
BEEN ASSIGNED TO BE A GO-GO
DANCER, AND THAT'S WHEN YOU
SAID, "ENOUGH."

Tina says THAT WAS THE MOMENT.
WHEN I WAS WRITING A COLUMN FOR
THE HUMOUR MAGAZINE
PUNCH,
AND I WAS ASKED TO GO AND TELL,
YOU KNOW, THE READERS WHAT
IT WAS LIKE TO BE A GO-GO DANCER
AND DANCE ON A... YOU KNOW, IN A
GO-GO DANCING BAR... WHICH I DID
GAINFULLY, I HAVE TO SAY.

Nam says WELL, WE SHARE THAT IN COMMON.
I WAS A GO-GO DANCER FOR A
LITTLE BIT IN UNIVERSITY TO PAY
THE BILLS.

[LAUGHS]

Tina says MY GOD, WELL THAT'S... WE'LL HAVE
TO SHARE WHAT IT'S LIKE BACKSTAGE.

[BOTH LAUGH]

Nam says BUT WHEN YOU HAVE THIS MEETING,
YOU ESSENTIALLY GET THIS JOB
OFFER, BUT THEN YOU GET BACK ON
THE PLANE, AND YOU GO BACK TO
ENGLAND.

Tina says THAT'S RIGHT.
WELL, WHAT HAPPENED AT FIRST WAS
THAT NEWHOUSE AT CONDÉ NAST HAD
I CAME IN TO MEET WITH HIM;
AND HE SAID... I SAID I'D BE A
CONSULTANT BECAUSE MY WHOLE
FAMILY WAS IN LONDON, AND I
DIDN'T... YOU KNOW, I WAS BASED IN
LONDON.
AND SO HE HAD ME COME AS A
CONSULTANT, AND WITHIN A FEW
WEEKS, I REALIZED THAT THEY JUST
HAD NO CLUE HOW TO DO IT, AND SO
HE BEGAN TO REALIZE THAT I WAS
THE RIGHT PERSON, AND SO HE
OFFERED THE JOB TO ME, BUT I
DIDN'T WANT TO DO ANYTHING
EXCEPT THE EDITOR-IN-CHIEF,
BECAUSE HE WANTED ME TO COME IN
AND SORT OF BE THE NUMBER TWO
AND SAY... YOU KNOW, AND SORT OF
BE THE KIND OF REAL EDITOR WHILE
SOMEONE ELSE WAS BEING THE
EDITOR OVER ME, AND I JUST
JUMPED ON A PLANE AND WENT HOME,
WHICH WAS QUITE KIND OF COCKY OF
ME, BECAUSE I BASICALLY THOUGHT,
"UNLESS I'M GOING TO BE THE
EDITOR, I DON'T WANT THE JOB AT
ALL."
SO I WENT BACK TO LONDON, AND I
SAT THERE.
AND FOR A WHILE, I STARTED TO
THINK, "MY GOD, I'VE BLOWN IT.
YOU KNOW, I'VE JUST BEEN TOO
COCKY BY HALF."
BUT SURE ENOUGH, AFTER A FEW
MONTHS, THE EDITOR THAT THEY HAD
FAILED... THE SECOND EDITOR... AND
THEY CALLED ME AND SAID WOULD I
COME FOR AN INTERVIEW?
AND I KNEW THAT I WAS COMING IN
THIS TIME TO BE OFFERED THE JOB
AS EDITOR OF
VANITY FAIR.

Nam says WHAT WAS THAT DAY LIKE, WHEN YOU
WALKED DOWN THE HALLWAY TO YOUR
OFFICE AS EDITOR-IN-CHIEF OF
VANITY FAIR?

Tina says WELL, YOU KNOW, IT WAS REALLY
SURREAL BECAUSE I HAD... YOU KNOW,
I'D BEEN THERE AS A CONSULTANT,
SO I GOT TO KNOW ALL THE PEOPLE,
WHICH WAS A BIT LIKE BEING AT
SUMMER SCHOOL BEFORE THE REAL
SCHOOL, RIGHT?
AND SO I HAD WATCHED AND NOTICED
ALL THESE PEOPLE, AND I KNEW WHO
I THOUGHT WAS GOOD AND WHO
WASN'T, BUT I ALSO COULDN'T
BELIEVE THAT I WAS WALKING
THROUGH THIS OFFICE TO THIS... THE
OFFICE AT THE END, AND THAT WAS
GOING TO BE MY OFFICE OF
EDITOR-IN-CHIEF.
AND I WAS MOSTLY MUCH YOUNGER
THAN EVERYBODY THERE.

NAM SAYS YOU WERE 29 AT THE TIME, RIGHT?

Tina says I WAS 29, AND I REALLY DIDN'T
KNOW ANYBODY IN AMERICA, AT ALL.
I MEAN, I'D BEEN A COUPLE OF
TIMES ON VACATION, LIVED THERE
FOR A MONTH OR TWO.

NAM SAYS AND YOU WROTE A PLAY ABOUT
YOUR EXPERIENCE.

Tina says AND I WROTE A PLAY ABOUT THAT
EXPERIENCE, WHEN I WAS JUST OUT
OF OXFORD.
BUT, YOU KNOW, I'D ONLY... I WAS
THERE I THINK FOR SIX WEEKS.
AND SO I FELT IN SOME WAYS
TREPIDATION, BUT IN OTHER WAYS,
I WAS TREMENDOUSLY CONFIDENT
BECAUSE I KNEW HOW TO... WHAT I
WAS GOING TO DO.
I KNEW THAT THIS MAGAZINE COULD
BE ABSOLUTELY CHANGED TOP TO
TOE, AND I KNEW HOW TO GO ABOUT
DOING IT, BECAUSE I HAD DONE
THAT AT
TATLER
WHERE I HAD BEEN
A GREAT SUCCESS.
BUT IT WAS ROCKY.

Nam says THERE WAS A LOT OF OFFICE POLITICS.

The caption changes to "Vanity Fair redux."

Tina says THERE WAS.
WELL, OF COURSE, THERE WAS A LOT
OF RESENTMENT... BECAUSE HERE I WAS, THIS
BRITISH EDITOR WHO WALKED IN.
THEY'D SEEN ME IN THE SUMMER,
BUT, YOU KNOW, WHO... WHY WAS I
SUDDENLY THERE?
AND, OF COURSE, THERE'D BEEN TWO
STAFFS ALREADY HIRED BY THE TWO
PRECEDING EDITORS, ALL OF WHOM
DISLIKED EACH OTHER, AND NOW
THEY DISLIKED ME, SO I HAD TO
WIN THEM AND BRING IN MY OWN
TEAM, BUT I HAD TO DO IT ALL AT
WARP SPEED.
AND WHAT I REALIZED WAS, FIRST
OF ALL, I HAD TO REDESIGN THE
MAGAZINE TOP TO TOE, SO OVER THE
FIRST WEEKEND IN
JANUARY... BECAUSE... AND IT WAS
SNOWING; IT WAS... YOU KNOW, I WAS
LIVING IN A HOTEL... BUT WE CAME
IN OVER THE WEEKEND, AND I SAID,
"OK, WE'RE GOING TO REDESIGN
THIS MAGAZINE TOP TO TOE,"
BECAUSE IT WAS A SORT OF MESS
VISUALLY, YOU KNOW?
SO, I DECIDED I WANTED A STRONG,
CLEAR, CLASSIC LAYOUT.
AND I STOOD IN THE ART
DEPARTMENT WITH THE ART
DIRECTOR, AND WE JUST REDESIGNED
IT, TOP... FRONT TO BACK, YOU KNOW?

A Vanity Fair magazine cover appears on screen. It features the title at the top, in bold black letters, and a painting of a fawn playing a flute that creates shapes and colours.

NAM SAYS THE FONTS, EVERYTHING.

TINA SAYS EVERYTHING.
NEW TYPEFACES, NEW EVERYTHING.
AND IT... IT HAS SORT OF
STAYED THE SAME, REALLY,
FOR... SINCE WE DID IT THAT
WEEKEND; IT'S AMAZING.

NAM SAYS BECAUSE YOU WERE GOING FOR
A CLASSIC LOOK.

Tina says I WAS GOING FOR A CLASSIC,
STRONG LOOK.
YOU KNOW, VERY CLASSICAL
TYPEFACES, CLEAN, YOU KNOW,
PROJECTION OF THE PHOTOGRAPHY.
AND I REMEMBER THINKING THAT I
HAD TO PUT OUT AN ISSUE VERY
QUICKLY BECAUSE I CAME IN
JANUARY, THE FIRST ISSUE WAS
APRIL, WHICH FOR A MONTHLY,
MEANS, YOU'VE GOT, YOU KNOW, A
FEW WEEKS.
AND I WAS RANSACKING THE DRAWERS
OF THE ART APARTMENT SAYING,
YOU KNOW, "THERE'S GOTTA BE
SOMETHING IN HERE THAT'S... YOU
KNOW, WHERE'S THE INVENTORY?
LET'S LOOK, WHAT HAVE WE GOT?"
AND I OPENED A DRAWER, AND THERE
WERE THESE AMAZING PHOTOGRAPHS
SITTING THERE, AND THEY WERE BY
ANNIE LEIBOVITZ.
THERE WERE PHOTOGRAPHS OF
COMEDIANS THAT SHE'D TAKEN,
ONE OF WHICH WAS THAT... WHAT
BECAME VERY FAMOUS PICTURE OF
WHOOPI GOLDBERG IN A...

NAM SAYS IN THE BATHTUB?

Tina says IN A BATHTUB OF MILK.
AND I LOOKED AT THESE PICTURES,
AND I SAID, "THESE ARE
UNBELIEVABLE.
WHY... WHAT ARE THEY DOING HERE?"
AND THEY SAID, "WELL, YOU KNOW,
THE OTHER EDITOR DIDN'T LIKE
THEM."
I SAID, "WELL, THAT'S
RIDICULOUS; THIS IS
INCREDIBLE."
I SAID, "LET'S MAKE A PORTFOLIO
OF THEM AND CALL THEM 'APRIL
FOOLS,' AND WE'LL DO THIS... THIS
ANNIE SPLASH.
SO, WE THREW THAT INTO THE
MAGAZINE.
AND THEN IT WAS OSCAR'S COMING
UP, BECAUSE AT THAT TIME, OSCARS
WERE IN... AT THAT TIME OF THE
YEAR, AND WE DECIDED TO DO
"BLONDE AMBITION."
I SAID, "WE'VE GOTTA CHANGE
THESE HORRIBLE COVERS," WHICH
VANITY FAIR
WAS DOING, WHICH
THEY WERE USING BLACK-AND-WHITE
PHOTOGRAPHS OF WRITERS ON THE
COVER OF VANITY FAIR.

Another cove features the title in red, and a picture of a blindfolded Marilyn Monroe in a black gown with a plunging neckline, holding two Oscar statuettes.

Tina says A FAMOUS ONE PARTICULARLY WAS OF
PHILIP ROTH WITH WHAT LOOKED
LIKE HIS FINGER UP HIS NOSE.
IT WAS JUST THE WORST THING,
KIND OF CLOSE-UP OF, YOU
KNOW... AND MY FEELING IS A GREAT
WRITER SHOULD BE READ BUT NOT
SEEN ON THE COVER OF MAGAZINES, RIGHT?

Nam says BUT DARYL HANNAH SHOULD BE SEEN.

TINA SAYS YEAH, EXACTLY.
I MEAN, LET'S PUT THE WRITERS
INSIDE AND THE MOVIE STARS ON
THE COVER.

NAM SAYS YEAH.

Tina says SO, I COMMISSIONED THIS OTHER
PORTFOLIO FROM THE GREAT
PHOTOGRAPHER HELMUT NEWTON WHICH
I WANTED TO CALL
"BLONDE AMBITION."
AND WE PHOTOGRAPHED ALL THE NEW
KIND OF ACTRESSES IN HOLLYWOOD
WHO HAD CAUGHT EVERYBODY'S
EYE, AND I PUT DARYL HANNAH
ON THE COVER, BLINDFOLDED,
HOLDING THE OSCARS.

NAM SAYS KIND OF LIKE THE SCALES.

Tina says LIKE A SCALE.
SCALES OF JUSTICE, I FELT.

NAM SAYS BUT I ALSO NOTICED IT COULD
ALSO MEAN... YOU SAID "BLONDE
AMBITION," COULD THAT ALSO BE
REFERRING TO YOUR AMBITION?

TINA SAYS YES, THIS COVER WAS RIPPED
IN SUBTEXT, RIGHT?

[NAM CHUCKLES]

TINA SAYS IT WAS "BLONDE AMBITION."
WHICH WAS A DOUBLE ENTENDRE WITH ME...
AND THERE WAS THE
SCALES... SHE WAS THE SCALES OF
JUSTICE... BLIND JUSTICE... BUT, YOU
KNOW, IT WAS ALSO THE FATE OF
THE MAGAZINE IN THE BALANCE.
AND THERE WERE... SHE WAS CARRYING
OSCAR STATUETTES.
AND THE GREAT THING WAS AT THAT
TIME, SHE WAS AN UNKNOWN
STARLET, BUT AS WE PUBLISHED,
SHE CAME OUT IN
SPLASH... WHICH WAS AT THAT TIME HER
BIG, HUGE DÉBUT HIT.
AND SO WE HAD THE RIGHT BLONDE
ON THE COVER, WHICH WAS A SORT
OF... THE WAY
VANITY FAIR
WENT
FROM THEN ON.

Nam says THERE WAS A LOT OF BUZZ ABOUT
THE FIRST ISSUE... YOUR FIRST
ISSUE.
HOW WAS IT RECEIVED?

Tina says WELL, EVERYBODY LOVED MY NEW
DISCOVERY.
HIS NAME WAS DOMINICK DUNNE.
HE WROTE THE PIECE ON "BLONDE
AMBITION," AND HE WAS... AT THAT
TIME, HE'D BEEN A FAILING FILM
PRODUCER, AND I HAD MET HIM AT A
DINNER PARTY OF A FRIEND, AND HE
WAS SO ENTERTAINING, SO
INTERESTING...

NAM SAYS AND HE HAD LOTS... HE HAD
TRAGEDY IN HIS LIFE.

TINA SAYS AND HE HAD THIS TRAGEDY... WHEREBY HE TOLD ME THAT HIS
DAUGHTER HAD BEEN MURDERED,
AND HE WAS GOING OUT TO LA
FOR HER MURDERER'S TRIAL.
AND I TOLD HIM... I SAID TO HIM,
YOU KNOW, "YOU HAVE SUCH A VOICE
FOR STORY AND HAVE GONE THROUGH
SUCH TRAGEDY, YOU SHOULD KEEP A
DIARY, AND MAYBE IT WILL BE
SOMETHING THAT YOU COULD
PUBLISH."
BEING A DIARIST MYSELF, OF
COURSE, I WAS ALWAYS FEELING
THAT DIARIES WERE THE WAY TO
KIND OF LEARN WHAT YOU KNEW AND
THOUGHT.
AND HE DID, AND HE KEPT THAT
DIARY, AND HE CAME IN WITH A
PIECE WHICH WAS CALLED
"JUSTICE," WHICH WAS PROBABLY
ONE OF THE MOST BEST PIECES
VANITY FAIR
EVER PUBLISHED.
IT WAS SO MOVING, ABOUT THIS
TRIAL, AND ABOUT HIS FURY AT THE
JURY HAVING GIVEN TOO LENIENT A
SENTENCE, AS HE BELIEVED, TO HIS
DAUGHTER'S MURDERER.
AND THAT WAS REALLY THE START.
I... HE WAS MY FIRST HIRE, AND...

Nam says BECAUSE YOU ENRICHED A LOT OF
YOUNG WRITERS ALONG THE WAY.

Tina says I DID; I FOUND MANY WRITERS...

NAM SAYS WHAT WERE YOUR LOOKING FOR
WHEN YOU...

Tina says WELL, WHAT I ALWAYS LOOK FOR IS
VOICE, YOU KNOW?
VOICE IS WHAT I LISTEN... WHAT I
LOOK FOR.
AND THE OTHER THING I HAVE
LEARNED IS THAT YOU CAN TEACH A
WRITER TO HOW TO WRITE A LEAD,
BUT YOU CAN'T TEACH A WRITER HOW
TO NOTICE THE RIGHT THINGS.
SO, IF I'M TALKING TO SOMEBODY
AND I AM SEEING THAT THEY ARE
TELLING ME A STORY AND I'M
NOTICING THINGS, THEN I KNOW
THAT THAT PERSON MIGHT BE ABLE
TO DO THAT ON THE PAGE.
BECAUSE OTHERWISE, YOU KNOW, YOU
HAVEN'T GOT THE BASIC THINGS YOU
NEED TO BE A WRITER.

Nam says EDITORIAL IS ONE ASPECT OF WHAT
YOU WERE DOING, BUT YOU ALSO HAD
TO GET ADVERTISING ON BOARD.
AND YOU WERE COURTING A LOT OF PEOPLE.
PLEASE DISH ON THE NAMES

[CHUCKLES]

Tina says OH, WE WERE... I MEAN, I HAD TO
GET ALL OF THESE FASHION GUYS.
THEY WERE THE MAIN PEOPLE I HAD
TO GET IN.
I HAD TO GET CALVIN KLEIN; RALPH
LAUREN; AND AT THE TIME, PERRY
ELLIS WHO DIED LATER.
BUT... AND THEY ALL SORT OF
COMPETED AGAINST EACH OTHER, AND
IT WAS ALL ABOUT COURTING
THEM... CONSTANTLY COURTING THEM
AND TRYING TO MAKE THEM
UNDERSTAND WHAT I WAS DOING.
AND, YOU KNOW, AT FIRST... FOR A
LONG TIME,
VANITY FAIR
WAS NOT
UNDERSTOOD BY THE ADVERTISERS.
YOU KNOW, THEY WOULD TURN
THROUGH IT... AND I USED TO DREAD
IT... YOU KNOW, THEY WOULD GO
THROUGH IT, AND THEY'D GO,
"HMM, HMM, HMM.
WELL, WHAT IS IT, YOU KNOW?
I MEAN, IS IT A FASHION
MAGAZINE?
IS IT A FILM MAGAZINE?
IS IT A, YOU KNOW, SOME KIND OF
A POLITICAL MAGAZINE?
I'VE GOT... YOU KNOW, POLITICS IN
HERE," YOU KNOW?
AND I KEPT TRYING TO MAKE THEM
UNDERSTAND THIS IS A MAGAZINE
LITERALLY AS A STORE.
YOU KNOW, IT IS A MAGAZINE THAT
IS A... A SORT OF CUTTING EDGE OF
THE SORT OF FRONTLINES OF THE
WHOLE CULTURE, YOU KNOW, CURATED
TOGETHER.
BUT, YOU KNOW, TRY SAYING THAT
IN A SHORT WAY.

[NAM CHUCKLES]

Tina says I MEAN, I CAN'T EVEN DO IT
TODAY.
I NEVER COULD FIGURE OUT, YOU
KNOW, WHAT... HOW TO SAY TO THEM,
"THIS IS ABOUT SENSIBILITY ON
THE PAGE.
YOU KNOW, THIS IS ABOUT GIVING
YOU A SORT OF BANQUET OF THE
CULTURE AT WARP SPEED, WHICH IS
WHAT WE ALL WANT FOR A MAGAZINE."
BUT IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT.
AND IT WAS REALLY ONLY THE
READERS WHO LOVED IT, YOU KNOW,
WHO AFTER A TIME... AND IT TOOK A
WHILE... ABOUT A YEAR AND A HALF
AFTER I CAME IN AND REMADE THE
MAGAZINE, BECAUSE IT WAS FAILING
WHEN I TOOK IT ON.
AND S.I. NEWHOUSE AND CONDÉ
NAST, YOU KNOW, THEY WEREN'T
PREPARED TO LOSE MONEY FOREVER,
SO IT WAS ABOUT HOW FAST I COULD
TURN THIS THING AROUND.
AND, IN FACT, IN JUNE 1985, S.I.
NEWHOUSE VERY NEARLY CLOSED IT,
AND I LEARNT IT BECAUSE I FOUND
THAT THE HUMAN RESOURCES STOPPED
ALLOWING US TO HIRE ANYBODY,
AND YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS.
IT MEANS THAT, YOU KNOW,
NOBODY'S GETTING HIRED, AND WHY
IS THAT, RIGHT?
I LEARNED THAT HE WAS ACTUALLY
GOING TO CLOSE IT.
AND I FLEW BACK FROM SAN
FRANCISCO WHERE I WAS TRYING TO
SELL ADVERTIZING, AS USUAL,
AND...

The caption changes to "All the gossip that's fit to print."

NAM SAYS YOU TURNED IT AROUND.

Tina says YEAH, I PERSUADED HIM.
I GOT INTO HIS FACE AND SAID TO
HIM, YOU KNOW, "YOU'VE GOTTA
GIVE US... GIVE ME SIX MONTHS.
YOU JUST GIVE ME... GIVE ME THE
TIME TO GET THESE STORIES THAT
ARE IN THE WORKS OUT."
ONE OF WHICH WAS DOMINICK
DUNNE'S INCREDIBLE STORY ABOUT
THE CLASSICAL BEULAH MURDER
TRIAL THAT WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF
HAPPENING.
ANOTHER OF WHICH WAS MY OWN
STORY.
I WROTE ABOUT PRINCESS DIANA.

NAM SAYS I WANT TO TALK MORE ABOUT
THAT.

Tina says YEAH, YOU KNOW, WE... I SAID TO
HIM, "WE HAVE THESE INCREDIBLE
STORIES.
YOU GOTTA LET US GET THEM OUT."
AND HE SAID, "OK, I'LL GIVE YOU
TWO YEARS."

NAM SAYS WHICH REALLY MEANT A FEW
MONTHS.

Tina says AND HE ALWAYS SAID TWO YEARS,
AND HE ALWAYS MEANT SIX MONTHS.

NAM SAYS SIX MONTHS.

Tina says AND I KNEW.

NAM SAYS WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT THE
COVERS, BECAUSE THE COVERS WERE
VERY IMPORTANT IN SELLING THE
MAGAZINE.
THE ONE WE HAVE RIGHT NOW IS
JOAN COLLINS, DECEMBER 1983,
WITH THE TAG, "SHE RHYMES WITH RICH."

[TINA CHUCKLES]

NAM SAYS HOW DID THAT COME ABOUT?

Another Vanity Fair cover with the title in black features a portrait of Joan Collins in a white wig.

Tina says WELL, YOU KNOW, DYNASTY
AT THE
TIME WAS THE... SORT OF THE HOT
SHOW.
I MEAN, AND
DYNASTY T
O ME JUST
DEFINED THAT ERA, AND I WANTED
JOAN COLLINS ON THE COVER
BECAUSE I JUST THOUGHT,
"IT'S THIS CRAZY ERA OF BIG
HAIR, YOU KNOW, BIG MONEY,
BIG NOISE, BIG CARS."
IT WAS, YOU KNOW, SHE
RHYMES WITH RICH."
"SHE RHYMES WITH RICH" ACTUALLY
IS SOMETHING THAT BARBARA BUSH
SAID ABOUT THE DEMOCRATIC
VICE-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE
GERALDINE FERRARO.
IT BECAME A KIND OF CATCHPHRASE.
IT WAS A VERY CATTY THING OF HER
TO SAY.
AND OUR JOKE WAS JUST, YOU KNOW,
JOAN IS THE... SORT OF THE
ULTIMATE... YOU KNOW, SHE PLAYED,
YOU KNOW, THE BITCHY, YOU KNOW,
RICH DALLAS WOMAN.
AND, YOU KNOW, WE WERE MAKING A
STATEMENT, REALLY, ABOUT THE '80S.

Nam says AND A BIG STATEMENT WAS HAVING
THE PRESIDENT AT THE
TIME... RONALD REAGAN... ON THE
COVER WITH HIS WIFE NANCY.
THIS WAS A... THERE'S A GREAT
STORY BEHIND THIS.

Another cover features a picture of Ronald and Nancy Reagan in elegant attire, dancing.

Tina says WELL, THIS WAS ONE OF... THIS WAS
REALLY THE COVER THAT I THINK
PROBABLY MOST MADE THE STATEMENT
THAT WE WERE GOING TO LIVE,
YOU KNOW, BECAUSE IT REALLY
HELPED TO TURN THE WHOLE
FORTUNES OF THE MAGAZINE AROUND,
BECAUSE THIS CAME OUT IN THE
SUMMER OF 1985, JUST WHEN S.I.
NEWHOUSE WAS THINKING ABOUT
CLOSING US, AND THIS
REALLY STOPPED THAT HAPPENING.
WHAT HAPPENED WAS IS THAT WE GOT
ACCESS TO THE WHITE HOUSE TO DO
A PHOTOSHOOT ON THE REAGANS... MR.
AND MRS. REAGAN... TOGETHER WITH
HARRY BENSON WHO WAS A
PHOTOGRAPHER WHO SHOT MANY
PRESIDENTS IN THE PAST AND I
KNEW COULD DO IT, RIGHT?
AND THE IDEA WAS TO DO SOMETHING
ABOUT THEIR RELATIONSHIP,
BECAUSE IT SEEMED TO ME THAT THE
INTERESTING STORY ABOUT THE
REAGAN ERA REALLY WAS THEM, WAS
THE TWO OF THEM, NOT JUST HIM.
BUT THEIR RELATIONSHIP AND HOW
THAT RELATIONSHIP SEEMED TO KIND
OF EPITOMIZE WHAT AMERICA WANTED
TO SEE IN TERMS OF THIS BOND,
GLAMOUR, STABILITY, LOVE.
YOU KNOW, IT WAS A KIND OF
INCREDIBLE POSITIVE IMAGERY OF
THE REAGANS TOGETHER THAT PEOPLE
FOUND SO APPEALING.
SO I WANTED TO DO THIS COVER AND
MAKE THAT STATEMENT.
AND...

NAM SAYS IT SOLD A LOT OF COPIES.

Tina says IT SOLD A LOT OF COPIES...
YEAH... MAINLY BECAUSE HARRY BENSON,
WHO'S A GENIUS, DECIDED THAT HE
WAS GOING TO TAKE A BOOMBOX WITH HIM...

Nam says WHICH HE PULLED OUT OF HIS BAG

[LAUGHS]

Tina says WHICH HE PULLED OUT OF HIS BAG
WITH TAPES OF FRANK SINATRA.
ONE SONG OF WHICH WAS NANCY'S
FAVOURITE.
NANCY WITH A LAUGHING FACE.
AND AS THE REAGANS CAME IN, THEY
WERE ON THEIR WAY TO A BLACK-TIE
STATE DINNER...

NAM SAYS SO THEY WERE DRESSED... FOR THE PRESIDENT OF ARGENTINA... SO THEY WERE DRESSED IN FULL BLACK TIE.
HARRY HITS THE BOOMBOX, AND FRANK SINATRA STARTS TO CROON, AND...

NAM SAYS THE PRESIDENT SAYS SOMETHING LIKE, "YOU DON'T WANT
TO KEEP THE PRESIDENT WAITING."

Tina says THAT'S RIGHT.
NANCY LOOKS AT RONNIE AND SAID...
YEAH... "RONNIE, THAT'S OUR SONG," AND
RONNIE SAYS, "WE CAN'T KEEP THE
PRESIDENT OF ARGENTINA WAITING,
NANCY," AND SHE SAID, "OH, LET'S
DANCE."

NAM SAYS PICTURES.

Tina says AND THE TWO OF THEM START DOING
THIS FOXTROT TOGETHER, AS IF
THERE'S NO ONE ELSE THERE BUT
THEM.
THEY'RE LOOKING AT EACH OTHER;
THEY'RE IN THEIR OWN MOVIE,
COMPLETELY.

NAM SAYS YEAH.

Tina says AND HARRY BENSON IS LEAPING UP
AND DOWN TAKING
PICTURES... [CLICKING]... YOU KNOW,
SNAPPING IT ALL, AND THEN HARRY,
WHO'S VERY SCOTTISH, GOES, "MR.
PRESIDENT, MR. PRESIDENT,
GIVE YOUR WIFE A KISS."

NAM SAYS PICTURE.

TINA SAYS... AND HE LEANS FORWARD,
CLICK, CLICK, CLICK...

NAM SAYS UH HUH.

TINA SAYS... AND I'M STANDING THERE
THINKING...

NAM SAYS YES!

TINA SAYS... "WE HAVE AN AMAZING
COVER."

Nam says YOU MENTIONED DIANA... BECAUSE
WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME, YOU
MENTIONED PRINCESS DIANA AND THE
COVER THAT YOU DID WITH HER.
YOU TAGGED IT, "THE MOUSE THAT ROARED."
WHEN THAT COVER CAME OUT, THE
STORY ITSELF, YOU SAID SOME
THINGS THAT THE PRESS IN THE
U.K. TURNED AROUND YOU AND
ATTACKED YOUR MARRIAGE IN A SENSE.

[TINA CHUCKLES]

Nam says HOW DID YOU RECEIVE THAT?

A Vanity Fair cover features a portrait of Princess Diana wearing a bejeweled tiara, with a grim look in her eyes.

Tina says WELL, ACTUALLY, I WAS VERY
ENTERTAINED BY THE WHOLE THING
BECAUSE THE BRITISH PRESS IN
THEIR TYPICAL TABLOID FASHION,
THEY RIPPED OFF EVERYTHING I
SAID IN THE PIECE, BUT THEN,
YOU KNOW, PRETENDED THEY WERE
OUTRAGED THAT A SO-CALLED
AMERICAN JOURNALIST, AS THEY NOW
CALLED ME, HAD DONE THIS VERY
DISRESPECTFUL COVER, THEY SAID,
ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE WALES'
MARRIAGE... CHARLES AND DIANA'S
MARRIAGE... WAS ACTUALLY NOT
EVERYTHING IT SEEMED.
I MEAN, GUESS WHAT, WE ALL KNOW
NOW, OF COURSE, THAT WAS TOTALLY
TRUE.
BUT AT THE TIME, I WAS THE FIRST
PERSON TO BREAK THAT NEWS,
THAT CHARLES AND DIANA'S
MARRIAGE WAS IN SERIOUS TROUBLE.
SO, THE WAY THEY WROTE ABOUT ME
WAS TO TAKE MY MARRIAGE AND
PARODY OUR MARRIAGES, IF IT WAS
EXACTLY LIKE THIS ONE.
THEY CALLED ME THE "JOAN
CRAWFORD OF PUBLISHING" AND
THEY... WHO TURNED INTO THIS CRAZY
DIVA, WHICH WAS VERY FUNNY.
AND ACTUALLY, I FRAMED IT AND
PUT IT IN THE BATHROOM.

Nam says SO YOU WEREN'T INSULTED AT ALL?

TINA SAYS NOT AT ALL.

[CHUCKLES]

Nam says AND THEN THE MAGAZINE THAT
PEOPLE HAVE COPIED SINCE IS THE
DEMI MOORE COVER.

TINA SAYS YES.

NAM SAYS AND ANNIE DID THIS ONE, RIGHT?

A Vanity Fair cover features a portrait of short-haired Demi Moore naked, covering her chest and holding her pregnant belly.

Tina says ANNIE LEIBOVITZ... ANOTHER GENIUS
COVER FROM ANNIE.
YEAH, THIS CAME ABOUT REALLY
BECAUSE I HAD JUST GIVEN BIRTH
TO MY SECOND CHILD AND HAD BEEN
FEELING VERY SORT OF MUTINOUS,
IF YOU LIKE, ABOUT WEARING
MATERNITY CLOTHES, AS WE THEN DID.
I DON'T THINK MATERNITY CLOTHES
EVEN EXIST ANYMORE, ACTUALLY,
BUT WE USED TO BUY THESE BIG
DRESSES AND ALL THE REST OF IT.
AND I WAS FEELING REALLY... YOU
KNOW, I GOT THROUGH THIS WITH A
KIND OF GRIN-AND-BEAR IT
SECOND-CHILD EXPERIENCE.
AND SO, WE GOT THIS PERMISSION
TO GO AND PHOTOGRAPH DEMI MOORE,
AND I SAID TO ANNIE, "WHY DON'T
YOU." AND SHE WAS PREGNANT, AND
I SAID TO ANNIE, "WHY DON'T YOU
SHOW HER STOMACH," MEANING IN A
TIGHT DRESS, RIGHT?
BECAUSE IT WAS USUALLY AT THAT
TIME, IF YOU'RE PREGNANT,
YOU KNOW, A STAR, YOU WOULD
SORT OF CUT IT HERE.
SO, ANNIE SAID, "THAT SOUNDS
GOOD," SO SHE WENT OFF AND SHE
DID THE PICTURE.
AND SHE CAME BACK, AND SHE
BROUGHT BACK BEAUTIFUL PICTURES
OF DEMI WEARING A BEAUTIFUL
TIGHT DRESS WITH HER BULGE
SHOWING.
AND I SAID, "THESE ARE
FABULOUS."
AND ANNIE SAID, "WELL, THERE IS
THIS OTHER... OTHER PICTURE I
TOOK," THAT WAS REALLY FOR BRUCE
WILLIS AND DEMI... YOU KNOW,
THEY'RE MARRIED.
SHE SAID, "I SORT OF DID THIS AS
A PRIVATE PICTURE, BUT WHY DON'T
YOU LOOK AT IT."
AND I LOOKED AT IT, AND I SAID,
"WE GOTTA DO THIS COVER.
WE HAVE TO DO THIS COVER."
AND...

NAM SAYS THE RESPONSE WAS GREAT.

Tina says A LOT OF PEOPLE WROTE IN... A LOT
OF WOMEN WROTE...
OH MY GOD, AND ANNIE, OF COURSE,
PERSUADED DEMI TO DO.
KUDOS TO DEMI THAT SHE AGREED.

NAM SAYS YEAH.

Tina says WELL, FIRST OF ALL, WALMART
REFUSED TO CARRY IT, AND WE HAD
TO SHRINK-WRAP IT LIKE A PORN
MAGAZINE, WHICH MADE IT EVEN
MORE, OF COURSE, SORT OF HOT CONTRABAND.
AND I THOUGHT WE WERE GOING TO
GET A LITTLE BIT OF, YOU KNOW,
DISCUSSION, BUT I NEVER THOUGHT
IT WOULD TURN INTO WHAT IT DID,
WHICH WAS THIS MASSIVE
SENSATION.
I MEAN, THE DEMI MOORE COVER HAS
BEEN REPRODUCED I... I WOULD
PROBABLY SUGGEST MORE THAN ANY
OTHER COVER I'VE EVER SEEN.
I MEAN, IN THE SENSE IT STILL
GETS REPRODUCED.
AND THE INCREDIBLE THING IS IS
THAT NOW SO MANY STARS HAVE
COPIED IT.
I MEAN, LAST SUMMER EVEN, SERENA
WILLIAMS SUDDENLY DOES HER DEMI
MOORE COVER.

Nam says HER VERSION, YEAH.

TINA SAYS IT'S LIKE IT'S A RIGHT OF
PASSAGE NOW FOR PREGNANT FEMALE
SUPERSTARS TO WANT TO DO THEIR
"DEMI MOORE SHOT."
AND ANNIE'S DONE MANY SINCE.

Nam says YOU WRITE ABOUT... IN YOUR
DIARIES, YOU WRITE ABOUT THE
STOCK MARKET CRASH.
WE WERE SPENDING TIME WITH
PRINCESSES, COUNTESSES, ACTORS,
MUSICIANS, VERY, VERY WEALTHY
PEOPLE.
WHAT SIGNS DID YOU SEE THAT ALL
WAS NOT RIGHT IN NEW YORK CITY?

Tina says WELL, I MEAN, ACTUALLY, IN... IN
THE VANITY FAIR DIARIES, THERE
IS A VERY SORT OF... THERE'S
ALWAYS A DARK STRAND, ACTUALLY,
AND THE DARK STRANDS ARE MY
SENSE THAT HOW PRECARIOUS ALL OF
THIS IS, THIS CRAZY... THIS BOOM,
BOOM, BOOM WITH THE REAGAN ERA,
THE ANIMAL SPIRITS ON WALL
STREET, THE SORT OF ACQUISITIVE
THRILL OF THE... OF MERGERS AND
ACQUISITIONS, AND A SENSE THAT
THE WORLD WAS SPINNING FASTER
AND FASTER.
AND I KEPT FEELING... AND, YOU
KNOW, MANY AN ENTRY IS TALKING
ABOUT HOW DISPARATE AND HOW I
DON'T LIKE THE RISING INEQUALITY
THAT I'M SEEING, THAT I'M
FEELING THAT IT'S EITHER THE
LIMO OR THE SIDEWALK OF THE
HOMELESS, YOU KNOW, THAT IT'S A
KIND OF... THERE'S NOTHING IN
BETWEEN.

Nam says BUT EVEN YOU AND YOUR
HUSBAND... HARRY EVANS... YOU MADE
MORE MONEY IN THE STATES THAN
YOU DID IN ENGLAND, AND YOU
MENTION THAT IN THE DIARY, BUT
YOU WORRIED ABOUT MONEY A LOT.
WHY?

TINA SAYS YEAH, WE DID.
IT'S FUNNY, I MEAN, I TALK ABOUT
HAVING... ABOUT REALIZING THAT,
YOU KNOW, WE WERE PAID MUCH LESS
IN ENGLAND, IN LONDON, AND YET
WE NEVER TALKED ABOUT MONEY.
YOU KNOW, WE NEVER REALLY FELT
THE PRESSURE OF MONEY.
WHEN... AS SOON AS WE CAME TO NEW
YORK, YOU SUDDENLY REALIZE THAT
YOU'RE ON THIS KIND OF... THE
ACQUISITIVE PRESSURE IN NEW
YORK, THE MATERIALISM OF IT, WAS
VERY MUCH, YOU KNOW, IN MY FACE
ALL THE TIME.
I MEAN, THE PEOPLE WERE JUST
SPENDING THESE INSANE SUMS,
AND THERE WAS THIS
COMPETITIVE SENSE OF MATERIALISM
AT ALL TIMES, WHICH I OFTEN FIND
IN THE BOOK YOU READ,
YOU KNOW, HOW SORT OF
INSECURE-MAKING IT WAS,
VERY OFTEN, JUST TO HAVE THIS
CONSTANT SORT OF PRESSURE OF
EVERYBODY SPENDING IN A SENSE
THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS
THIS... YOU NEVER HAD ENOUGH.
AND MY OWN VALUES, OBVIOUSLY,
WERE VERY MUCH MORE ABOUT FAMILY
AND ABOUT MY HUSBAND AND BEING
WITH MY KIDS, AND I ALWAYS SAW
ALL OF THIS GOING OUT THAT I DID
AS A WAY TO GET STORIES.
TO ME THIS WAS ABOUT, YOU KNOW,
DIGGING INTO THE CULTURE,
LEARNING... LEARNING WHAT WAS
GOING ON AND COVERING IT AS AN
EDITOR.
BUT I DIDN'T WANT TO BE THERE AS
A GUEST, PARTICULARLY.
I WANTED TO BE THERE AS THE
EDITOR LOOKING FOR STORIES.
AND THAT'S ALWAYS BEEN TRUE OF
ME, ACTUALLY.

The caption changes to "Producer: Sandra Gionas, @sandragionas."

Nam says WELL, IT'S BEEN REALLY GREAT
TALKING TO YOU, TINA.

Tina says THANK YOU.

NAM SAYS WE'VE RUN OUT OF TIME, BUT
WE'LL CONTINUE OUR CONVERSATION
FOR THE NEXT SHOW.

TINA SAYS THANK YOU, YEAH.

NAM SAYS THANK YOU.

Watch: Vanity Fair Diaries