Transcript: Finding Canada's Missing History | Feb 14, 2018

Nam sits in the studio. She's in her early forties, with shoulder length curly brown hair. She's wearing glasses and a black blazer over a purple shirt, as well as a golden necklace.

A caption on screen reads "Finding Canada's missing history. Nam Kiwanuka, @namshine, @theagenda."

Nam says NOT MANY PEOPLE CAN SAY
THAT THEIR PODCAST OUTPERFORMED
OPRAH WINFREY'S BUT THAT'S
EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED FOR THE
TEAM BEHIND "SECRET LIFE OF
CANADA."
THE PODCAST SETS OUT TO UNEARTH
CANADA'S UNTOLD HISTORY, AND
WITH
MORE THAN 100,000 DOWNLOADS
OF THEIR FIRST FEW EPISODES ON
ITUNES, THE INTEREST IS THERE.
JOINING US NOW TO EXPLAIN:
KATIE JENSEN, A FREELANCE
PRODUCER OF SEVERAL PODCASTS,
INCLUDING MOST RECENTLY THE
"SECRET LIFE OF CANADA"...

Katie is in her thirties, with long wavy brown hair and bangs. She's wearing a bright yellow blazer over a white shirt.

Nam continues AND THE TWO HOSTS OF THAT PODCAST:
ACTOR AND PLAYWRIGHT LEAH-SIMONE BOWEN...

Falen is in her thirties, with long wavy brown hair and bangs. She's wearing a green sweater over a white shirt.
Leah-Simone is in her thirties, with long curly black hair in a bun. She's wearing glasses and a black blouse.

Nam continues AND PLAYWRIGHT FALEN JOHNSON.
WELCOME TO YOU ALL.

The guests say THANK YOU.

Nam says I'LL TRY NOT TO
FAN-GIRL BECAUSE I KIND OF LIKE
THIS PODCAST.
GOING TO BE PROFESSIONAL, AS
PROFESSIONAL AS I CAN BE.
BUT, KATIE, TELL US, HOW DID
THIS PODCAST COME TO BE?

The caption changes to "Katie Jensen. Producer, 'Secret life of Canada.'"
Then, it changes again to "Starting the conversation."

Katie says LAST SUMMER I
WANTED TO RUN THIS WORKSHOP THAT
REALLY FOCUSED ON GETTING MORE
VOICES INTO THE CANADIAN PODCAST
LANDSCAPE, SO I CREATED THIS
HUGE WORKSHOP AND POSTED ABOUT
IT ON TWITTER AND FACEBOOK
SAYING, HEY, ANYONE CAN COME.
IT'S SLIDING SCALE.
I'LL GET PEOPLE TO SPONSOR THOSE
WHO CAN ONLY PAY 1 dollar OR PAY 5 dollars,
AND THEN THEY SAW THAT ON
FACEBOOK AND CAME TO MY VERY
FIRST WORKSHOP IN APRIL, AND
EVERYONE LOVED THE CONCEPT OF
THE SHOW.

Nam says AND YOU HAD TO DO LIKE
A 20-SECOND PRESENTATION?
TELL US ABOUT THAT.

The caption changes to "Leah-Simone Bowen. Host, 'Secret life of Canada.'"

Leah-Simone says THE END
OF THIS TUTORIAL THAT KATIE GAVE
US, WHICH WAS GREAT, IS YOU HAVE
TO MAKE YOUR OWN LITTLE TRAILER,
AND WE REALLY HARDLY KNEW HOW
TO... I MEAN, EVEN TO OPEN THE
ITUNES AND TO TRY TO FIGURE
OUT... LIKE, WE WERE JUST
TERRIBLE AT EVERYTHING
TECHNICAL.
BUT WE HAD A REALLY GOOD IDEA OF
WHAT WE WANTED THE PODCAST...
THE CONCEPT AND WHAT WE WANTED
IT TO SOUND LIKE, SO WE RECORDED
THIS LITTLE THING WITH MUSIC
OVERTOP OF IT.
I THOUGHT IT SOUNDED PRETTY
TERRIBLE.

Falen says WELL, THE
MUSIC WAS JUST UP REALLY HIGH
BECAUSE AGAIN WE HAVE NO
TECHNICAL ABILITY WHATSOEVER.

Leah-Simone says SO WE
FINISHED IT AND EVERYONE CLAPPED
AND WE FELT GOOD ABOUT OURSELVES
AND WE THOUGHT WE'LL TRY TO PUT
TOGETHER A PODCAST AND LUCKY FOR
US, KATIE CONTACTED US A COUPLE
DAYS LATER AND SAID, I REALLY
LOVED THIS CONCEPT.
I REALLY LOVED YOU GUYS.
WHAT ARE YOU DOING WITH IT?
AND THAT'S HOW IT SORT OF
STARTED YA

Nam says THAT PRESENTATION THATYOU HAD IS EXACTLY WHAT SECRET
LIFE IS, OR?

The caption changes to "Katie Jensen. Producer, 'Secret life of Canada.'"

Katie says IT IS ESSENTIALY
THE TEASER THAT YOU HEAR LIKE
THE TEASER IN I TUNES IS WHATTHEY MADE
AND THEN JUST WITH THE MUSIC
TURNED DOWN A LITTLE BIT.

Nam says WHAT WERE YOU EXPECTING
TO HAPPEN?

Falen says I WASN'T REALLY SURE
BECAUSE WE DIDN'T KNOW KATIE
WE DIDN'T REALLY KNOW WHAT WE
WERE DOING LEAH HAD PURCHASED
SOME MICROPHONES AND WE BROUGHT
OUR LAPTOPS AND ALL OUR GEAR
BUT I DIDN'T HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT
I WOULD WALK OUT WITH I
DEFINETLY DIDN'T THINK THAT WE
WOULD END UP HAVING SUCH A
FORTUITOUS RELATIONSHIP AND THAT
THIS WOULD GO ANYWHERE

Nam says BUT YOU WANTED TO DO A
PODCAST?

Falen says YA WE WANTED TO DO A
PODCAST, WE HAD TALKED ABOUT IT
BEFORE AND SO WHEN THIS SO WHEN
THE LITTLE ADVERTISEMENT FOR IT
HAD SHOWED UP, ON FACEBOOK WE
SAID WE SHOULD DO THIS !
AND SO THAT'S HOW WE FOUND OUT
ABOUT IT AND THAT'S HOW WE
ENDED UP GOING.

Nam says KATIE, WHY HAVE THE
WORKSHOP IN THE FIRST PLACE?

The caption changes to "Katie Jensen, @KatieJensen."

Katie says I DON'T KNOW.
I KIND OF GET THESE IDEAS LATE
AT NIGHT AND I'M LIKE MAYBE I
SHOULD DO THIS AND SOMETIMES
THEY END UP BEING THE BEST
IDEAS.
IT WAS A SUNDAY NIGHT AND I WAS
LIKE WHAT IF I DID THIS WEEKEND
WORKSHOP?
I HAD KIND OF BEEN DOING
FREELANCE WORK, I LEFT
CANADALAND IN JANUARY AND THREE
MONTHS LATER I WAS WORKING ON
FREELANCE PROJECTS BUT REALLY
WANTED TO WORK WITH SOME NEW
PEOPLE, AND THE BEST WAY TO MAKE
NEW FRIENDS AND MEET NEW
COLLABORATORS IS JUST KIND OF
DOING A BLIND CALLOUT, AND I
FOUND THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A
HUGE RESPONSE ON TWITTER, I
THINK.
I GOT 60 SIGNUPS IN THE WAIT
LIST THAT NIGHT AND THEN BY THE
TIME I HAD THE FIRST WORKSHOP
THERE WAS 120 PEOPLE ON THE WAIT
LIST AND THEN, YOU KNOW, BY THE
TIME THE SECOND ONE ROLLED
AROUND, 200 PEOPLE.
SO PEOPLE REALLY WANTED TO COME
TO THIS WORKSHOP AND I THINK I
JUST REALLY WANTED TO SEE MORE
INTERESTING WORK BEING MADE.

Nam says WHEN YOU SAY
"INTERESTING," WHAT DO YOU MEAN?

Katie says WHEN WE THINK OF CANADIAN
PODCASTING WE THINK OF CBC AND
THE OFFERINGS FROM OTHER LEGACY
BROADCASTERS, YOU KNOW, THE
PRINT... COMPANIES THAT HAVE
THEIR OWN PODCAST OFFERINGS.
MACLEANS HAS IT, THE STAR HAS
ITS PODCASTS, THE GLOBE, THE
NATIONAL POST HAS TRIED
PODCASTING, BUT IT'S REALLY HARD
TO FIND CANADIAN PODCASTS IF YOU
DON'T KNOW WHAT OR WHO YOU'RE
LOOKING FOR.
I REALLY JUST WANTED TO SEE MORE
PEOPLE WHO WERE TELLING STORIES
THAT WERE SPECIFICALLY CANADIAN
INSTEAD OF TRYING TO HUNT DOWN
AND JUST FIND PODCASTS THAT WERE
INTERESTING AND THEN KIND OF
PARSING THROUGH THEIR TWITTER
BIOS TO SEE IF IT WAS A CANADIAN
SHOW.

Nam says IT'S IMPORTANT TO YOU
THAT THEY'RE WOMEN TOO, RIGHT?

Katie says DEFINITELY.
I REALLY WANT TO WORK WITH WOMEN.
I THINK THERE'S JUST LIKE
SOMETHING INHERENTLY MORE
COLLABORATIVE AND EMPATHETIC
ABOUT WORKING WITH OTHER WOMEN,
AND IT'S JUST... IT'S JUST A LOT
OF FUN TO WORK WITH THESE GIRLS.
IT'S LIKE... THEY'RE LIKE THE
BEST COLLABORATORS.

Nam says ARE YOU STILL DOING
THE WORKSHOP?

Katie says I DID TEN SINCE APRIL.
I WANT TO DO MORE THIS YEAR.
I WANT TO WAIT UNTIL I HAVE A
STUDIO SPACE OF MY OWN AND TAKE
PEOPLE IN AND SAY, HEY, HERE'S
HOW TO USE THIS MICROPHONE WE
SPENT ALL THIS TIME TALKING
ABOUT INSTEAD OF HOLDING UP A
DIAGRAM AND SAYING HERE ARE THE
DIFFERENT MICROPHONES YOU CAN
USE, INSTEAD OF A TABLE-TOP
MIKE, HERE IS A STUDIO
MICROPHONE, COME IN, RECORD IT,
AND TAKE IT HOME.

Nam says WE WERE JOKING BEFORE
WITH LEAH IF SHE COUGHS, SHE HAS
TO GET OFF THE SET.
WE'RE REALLY HAPPY TO HAVE YOU
HERE.
IF YOU NEED TO COUGH, COUGH
AWAY.
HOW DO YOU FIND THE STORIES YOU
TELL ON A SECRET LIFE?

The caption changes to "Leah-Simone Bowen, @LadyBlerd."

Leah-Simone says WE'RE PRETTY LUCKY.
THE REASON WE STARTED THE
PODCAST IS BECAUSE WE KNOW A LOT
OF THESE STORIES BECAUSE WE'RE
BOTH PLAYWRIGHTS, WE BOTH WORK
IN THEATRE, AND BEING A
PLAYWRIGHT MEANS YOU'RE OFTEN
DOING RESEARCH WORK ON A MYRIAD
OF SUBJECTS AND BEING CANADIAN
PLAYWRIGHTS, THAT'S REALLY WHAT
WE'VE BEEN SEARCHING.
SO WE JUST KNOW A LOT OF WEIRD
HISTORY, AND ONE OF THE REASONS
WE STARTED THIS PODCAST IS FALEN
AND I WOULD GET TOGETHER, YOU
KNOW, PERIODICALLY, AND TALK
ABOUT OUR WORK, AND IT WOULD
ALWAYS BE A CONVERSATION OF, OH,
MY GOSH.
YOU KNOW WHAT I JUST FOUND OUT?
I FOUND OUT THIS WILD THING
ABOUT THIS PLACE OR THAT THIS
PERSON DISCOVERED THIS PLACE
BEFORE WE EVEN THOUGHT IT WAS
DISCOVERED OR WHAT HAVE YOU.
SO WE ACTUALLY HAVE A LOT OF
THESE WEIRD FACTS AND KNOWLEDGE
FLOATING AROUND IN OUR HEADS
ALREADY.
BUT ALSO SINCE WE'VE STARTED THE
PODCAST, IT'S BEEN AMAZING.
WE'VE GOTTEN SO MUCH FEEDBACK
AND SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE
CONTACTED US AND SAID, CAN YOU
PLEASE DO A STORY ABOUT THIS
PERSON IN MY COMMUNITY THAT
NOBODY KNOWS ABOUT?
CAN YOU PLEASE DO SOMETHING
ABOUT THIS SUBJECT?
I WANT TO KNOW MORE BUT I DON'T
KNOW ANYTHING.
AND, I MEAN, I THINK THE REALITY
IS, A LOT OF PEOPLE COME TO US
AND SAY, OH, MY GOSH, HOW ARE
YOU FINDING THIS STUFF?
WELL, THE STUFF IS OUT THERE.
I MEAN, HISTORIANS HAVE DONE THE
WORK.
IT'S JUST I THINK WHAT GETS
CHOSEN TO BE PROMOTED, THE
STORIES OF CANADIAN HISTORY THAT
REALLY GET PUSHED OUT THERE ARE
THE SAME OVER AND OVER AND OVER
AGAIN, AND I DO FEEL LIKE IT'S A
CURATED PROCESS.
I DO FEEL LIKE IT'S A COLONIAL
PROCESS IN THOSE NAMES AND
PEOPLE THAT WE KIND OF PROMOTE.
SO WE'RE JUST TRYING TO CHANGE
THE FRAME.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: @theagenda, TVO.org, Facebook, YouTube, Periscope, Instagram."

Nam says AND YOUR FIRST EPISODE
FEATURED A PLACE THAT A LOT OF
CANADIANS GO TO VACATION, IT'S
BEAUTIFUL, IT'S WONDERFUL, AND
IT WAS A FEATURE... IT WAS
CALLED "THE SECRET LIFE OF
BANFF."
FALEN, WHAT DID YOU FIND OUT?

The caption changes to "Falen Johnson, @FalenJohnson."
Then, it changes again to "The past unpolished."

Falen says I MEAN, WHAT
I HAD KNOWN ABOUT BANFF PRIOR TO
GETTING THERE... I'VE HAD THE
OPPORTUNITY TO VISIT BANFF A FEW
TIMES NOW.
AND I DIDN'T REALLY KNOW MUCH AT
ALL.
WHAT I KNEW WAS, I KNEW A LITTLE
BIT OF HISTORY ABOUT THE HOTEL.
I KNEW ABOUT THE ARTISTS
RESIDENCY SPACE THERE AND THE
WORK THAT THEY DO, BUT THAT WAS
PRETTY MUCH IT.
I HAD KNOWN THAT THERE WAS SOME
HISTORY ABOUT INTERNMENT, BUT I
REALLY DIDN'T LEARN ANYTHING
UNTIL WE SORT OF DELVED INTO
THAT RESEARCH AND STARTED TO
LOOK INTO IT.
I FOUND IT SO FASCINATING.
I JUST LISTENED TO IT AGAIN
RECENTLY.
IT'S FUN TO VISIT BACK, WHICH
FEELS LIKE A MILLION YEARS AGO
NOW.
BUT LISTENING BACK TO IT, JUST
THE SIMPLICITY OF THE HISTORY
AND THE KNOWLEDGE THAT THOSE
TRAILS THAT PEOPLE WALKED DOWN,
THAT TOURISTS HIKE DOWN, WERE
CARVED OUT BY PEOPLE WHO WERE
INTERNED, JUST KNOWING THAT THE
SPACE WHERE YOUR FEET LANDS IS
THE SPACE WHERE SOMEBODY WHO WAS
FORCIBLY MADE TO CREATE THAT
SPACE FOR US TO ENJOY OUR, YOU
KNOW, CANADIAN LIFE OF LEISURE,
YOU KNOW, SO WE CAN GO SKIING OR
WALK TO THE HOT SPRINGS.
AND THAT'S JUST SOMETHING THAT
PEOPLE DON'T THINK ABOUT.
SO JUST THE SIMPLICITY OF FACTS
LIKE THAT, I FIND THOSE ARE THE
THINGS THAT REALLY SORT OF TOUCH
MY HEART AND SORT OF REALLY MAKE
ME THINK ABOUT WHERE I AM IN
THIS COUNTRY AND MY
RESPONSIBILITY TO THIS LAND.

Nam says FALEN, YOU MENTIONED
INTERNMENT CAMPS.
WHO WAS INTERNED?

Leah-Simone says SPECIFICALLY THE CAMP THAT
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IS NEAR THE
CAVIN BASIN IN BANFF AND IT WAS
PRIMARILY UKRAINIAN INTERNED
PEOPLE; THEY WERE CALLED ENEMY
ALIENS.
DURING WORLD WAR I THERE WERE
AROUND 24 INTERNMENT CAMPS THAT
INTERNED THESE ENEMY ALIENS
WHICH WERE MOSTLY EASTERN
EUROPEAN DESCENT, BECAUSE THAT'S
WHO WE WERE AT WAR WITH AT THE
TIME, AND MOSTLY UKRAINIANS.
YEAH, SO THIS SPECIFIC
INTERNMENT CAMP THAT WE TALK
ABOUT IN THE BANFF EPISODE, LIKE
FALEN SAID, THESE PEOPLE WERE
RESPONSIBLE FOR BUILDING, YOU
KNOW, THE BANFF SPRINGS HOTEL,
WHICH IS KIND OF THIS JEWEL OF
BANFF WHEN YOU GO THERE, AND SO
MANY OTHER THINGS.
AND I THINK, AS A PERSON WHO
GREW UP IN ALBERTA AND WENT TO
BANFF SEVERAL TIMES A YEAR, IT
WAS ASTONISHING TO ME THAT THIS
HISTORY ABOUT THIS PLACE EXISTED
AND NO ONE KNEW AND IT'S NOT...
YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU DRIVE INTO
BANFF, I DON'T KNOW THAT THERE
ARE ANY PLAQUES THERE
COMMEMORATING THESE UKRAINIANS
THAT REALLY, SOME OF THEM DIED,
YOU KNOW, BUILDING BANFF.
SO IT'S A PRETTY ASTONISHING AND
SOBERING PIECE OF HISTORY.

Nam says LEAH, SOMETHING THAT
YOU AND FALEN DISCUSS ON THE
EPISODE ITSELF IS HOW DO YOU
ENJOY THAT SPACE KNOWING THE
HISTORY OF IT?

Leah-Simone says I KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE
SAID, OH, BANFF IS RUINED NOW.
YOU'VE RUINED IT.
BUT I PERSONALLY FEEL THAT, YOU
KNOW, IN EVERY EPISODE WE DEAL
WITH, REALLY... SOMETIMES
DISTURBING AND HARD INFORMATION
AND I REALLY FEEL LIKE EACH
EPISODE IS A LOVE LETTER TO THAT
PLACE AND TO THOSE PEOPLE, AND I
FEEL THAT I PERSONALLY CAN ENJOY
BANFF SO MUCH MORE KNOWING NOW
WHO BUILT IT, WHOSE BLOOD,
SWEAT, AND TEARS WENT INTO
BUILDING ME THE TRAILS AND I
WOULD FEEL TERRIBLE TO NOT
HONOUR THEM AND NOT KNOW THEIR
STORIES.
YOU KNOW, THE OTHER PART OF THE
EPISODE IS ALSO ABOUT WHOSE LAND
ARE WE ON WHEN WE GO TO BANFF?
AND THAT IS SOMETHING I ALSO
NEVER EVEN CLOCKED GROWING UP
GOING THERE.
AND SO, YOU KNOW, WE TALKED TO
BILL SNOW, A STONEY NAKODA
MEMBER, ABOUT THE DISPLACEMENT
OF THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE TO MAKE
THAT NATIONAL PARK.
YOU KNOW, ALL OF THOSE STORIES
COUNT AND THEY DESERVE TO BE
HEARD.
AND SO THAT'S WHY I THINK IT'S
SO IMPORTANT TO HEAR THEM AND IT
MAKES ME ENJOY THE PLACE SO MUCH
MORE.

The caption changes to "Watch us on Facebook Live: Weekdays at 8 PM."

Nam says AND SOME OF THE
HISTORY PRESUMABLY IT'S... IT'S
A HISTORY THAT BREAKS YOUR HEART
BECAUSE I THINK OF CANADIANS, WE
WANT TO SEE OURSELVES IN A
CERTAIN WAY.
WHAT'S THE REACTION BEEN LIKE
WHEN YOU DO TELL THESE STORIES
THAT MAYBE MAKE US STEP AWAY
FROM WHO WE THINK WE ARE AS A COUNTRY?

Falen says IT'S PRETTY MIXED, I'D SAY.
THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO WOULD
PREFER US TO STICK WITH THE
STATUS QUO OF WHAT CANADIAN
HISTORY HAS BEEN UP AND TO THIS
POINT, BUT THERE ARE ALSO PEOPLE
WHO ARE MORE INTERESTED IN
HEARING THE REALITY AND THE REAL
HISTORY AND THE UNTOLD HISTORY
OF HERE.
ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS SCROLL
THROUGH OUR ITUNES REVIEWS TO
SEE THE SPECTRUM OF PEOPLE WHO
ENJOY IT AND PEOPLE WHO DON'T,
AND OF COURSE NOT EVERYONE IS
GOING TO LOVE IT AND A FRIEND OF
MINE SAID, IF EVERYONE LOVED IT,
THEN YOU WOULDN'T BE DOING IT
RIGHT.
AND I FELT THAT THAT WAS A
REALLY... THAT MADE ME FEEL
GOOD.
I WAS LIKE, YES, THAT'S RIGHT.
IF EVERYBODY LOVED IT, THEN WE
WOULDN'T BE DOING THIS RIGHT.

Nam says HOW MUCH RESEARCH GOES
INTO THE PODCAST?

Katie says A LOT, YEAH, YEAH.
A LOT.
I'D SAY PROBABLY 40 HOURS OF
RESEARCH AND WRITING AND
REFINING THAT RESEARCH.

Leah-Simone says I MEAN,
YES, IN THE FINISHED PRODUCT,
BUT EVEN MORE, LIKE I SAID,
WE'VE DONE BACK RESEARCH FOR
YEARS ABOUT CERTAIN SUBJECTS.
YOU KNOW, SOMEONE WROTE US
RECENTLY AND SAID, OH, I LOVED
YOUR PODCAST BUT, YOU KNOW, YOU
ONLY PUBLISH TWICE A MONTH.
WE WANT MORE.
AND THE REASON WE DON'T PUBLISH
MORE OFTEN IS BECAUSE, YOU KNOW,
WE FEEL SUCH A RESPONSIBILITY
THAT THE INFORMATION BE ACCURATE
AND ALSO WHEN YOU'RE TELLING
MOSTLY MARGINALIZED PEOPLE'S
STORIES WHO HAVE NOT REALLY BEEN
HEARD OR GOTTEN THEIR DUE, WE
WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE DO IT
WITH A LOT OF LOVE AND CARE.

Nam says IT'S NOT ABOUT
QUANTITY, IT'S ABOUT QUALITY.

Leah-Simone says THAT'S RIGHT, YEAH.

Nam says SIX EPISODES SO FAR,
RIGHT, INCLUDING "SHADOW"?
I KNOW THIS IS PROBABLY LIKE
PICKING YOUR FAVOURITE BABY, BUT
WHICH EPISODE HAS MEANT THE MOST
TO EACH OF YOU INDIVIDUALLY?

Falen says I DON'T WANT TO START.

[LAUGHTER]

Katie says I THINK
"THERE" BECAUSE IT WAS SUCH A
WILD RIDE.
SO THAT'S EPISODE 4.
I THINK AT THAT POINT FALEN AND
LEAH REALLY STARTED TO GET THEIR
LEGS AND STARTED TO... THEY
HADN'T DONE A PODCAST BEFORE SO
IT'S INCREDIBLE WHEN YOU LISTEN
TO EPISODE ONE "THE SECRET LIFE
OF BANFF" AND THINK THESE ARE
PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T DONE IT
BEFORE.
THEY HAVE THIS INCREDIBLY GIFT.
THE NEXT IS RAUNCHY, NOT SAFE
FOR WORK, NO CHILDREN.
BUT IT'S JUST THIS... YOU KNOW,
IT JUST EXPLORES THIS... I THINK
1972 OR...

Leah-Simone says 1976.

Katie says IT'S THIS
PIECE OF CANLIT... I DON'T WANT
TO BLOW THIS GREAT REVIEW, BUT
IT'S A BOOK WHERE SOMEONE FALLS
IN LOVE WITH A BEAR AND HAS THIS
VERY EXPLICIT SEX THAT'S
DETAILED IN THIS SHORT NOVELLA
AND THEY DIVE INTO THE HISTORY
AND HOW THAT FITS INTO THE
FRAMEWORK OF CANADIAN FEMINIST
HISTORY AND THE SECOND WAVE OF
FEMINISM, WHAT COMES BEFORE,
WHAT COMES AFTER.
IF IT WAS JUST ABOUT THE BOOK,
IT WOULD BE LIKE A PUFF, KIND OF
A FUN THROWAWAY EPISODE... A
REALLY ENJOYABLE EPISODE, PURELY
ENTERTAINMENT BUT BECAUSE THEY
PUT THIS IN THE FRAMEWORK OF WHY
THIS WAS IMPORTANT AND WHY IT
WON AN AWARD, IT BECOMES THIS
COMPREHENSIVE LOOK AT CANADIAN
LITERARY HISTORY.

Nam says AND THAT'S
INTENTIONAL, RIGHT?

Katie says YEAH, YEAH.

Leah-Simone says LIKE I SAID, WE ALWAYS WANT
TO PROVIDE A FRAME FOR ALL OF
THE SUBJECTS THAT WE COVER AND
SO THAT'S THE FRAME.
REALLY, WHAT HAPPENED IN CANADA
IN THE WORLD OF FEMINISM TO GET
MARION ENGEL TO WRITING THAT
BOOK AND WHY WAS THAT BOOK
SUBVERSIVE AT THAT TIME AND WHY
IS IT STILL SUBVERSIVE?
SO IT WAS A LOT OF FUN, THAT
EPISODE.

Nam says FALEN, YOUR TURN NOW.

Falen says IT'S HARD.
I ALWAYS FALL IN LOVE WITH LIKE
THE YOUNGEST CHILD.
RIGHT NOW NEW BRUNSWICK IS
PROBABLY UP THERE.
NIAGARA FALLS IS ALSO REALLY
CLOSE TO ME JUST BECAUSE IT'S
MY... YOU KNOW, I GOT TO
INTERVIEW MY DAD, WHICH WAS
REALLY FUN.
SO THAT'S SORT OF, YOU KNOW...
THAT'S A FUN ONE FOR ME.

Nam says AND IT WAS ALSO
BILINGUAL, RIGHT?

Falen says THE NEW BRUNSWICK ONE, WHICH
WAS, YEAH, A KIND OF INTERESTING
EXPERIMENT TO SEE HOW THAT WOULD
LAND.
BUT I THOUGHT... I LEARNED I
THINK THE MOST FROM THE NEW
BRUNSWICK EPISODE.
SO I THINK THAT'S MY FAVOURITE
RIGHT NOW.

Nam says LEAH, YOUR TURN.

Leah-Simone says IT'S HARD.
I'M ACTUALLY GOING TO SAY THE
EPISODE ON BIRCHTOWN BECAUSE I
GOT TO INTERVIEW LAWRENCE HILL,
WHO I LOVE AND I LOVE HIS
WRITING, AND BECAUSE WE REALLY
WANTED IN THAT EPISODE TO,
AGAIN, CHANGE THE FRAME OF WHAT
WE TALK ABOUT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT
BLACK HISTORY, WHICH WE OFTEN
TALK ABOUT IN SCHOOLS AND, YOU
KNOW, DURING BLACK HISTORY
MONTH.
IT'S BETTER NOW, BUT IT WAS
ALWAYS ABOUT THE UNDERGROUND
RAILROAD.
AND SO WE WENT OUT AND WE
INTERVIEWED JUST EVERYDAY BLACK
CANADIANS, LIKE WHAT DID YOU
LEARN ABOUT YOURSELF IN SCHOOL
AND AND THEY ALL SAID EITHER THE
UNDERGROUND RAILROAD OR NOTHING.

Nam says WHAT HAPPENS BETWEEN
ALL THAT OTHER HISTORY, RIGHT?

Leah-Simone says YEAH.
SO WE UNCOVERED 200 YEARS OF
SLAVERY BEFORE THE UNDERGROUND
RAILROAD.
THAT WAS KIND OF MY FAVOURITE
EPISODE SO FAR FOR ALL OF THOSE
REASONS.

Nam says WE'VE MENTIONED THE
SHOUTOUTS WHICH IS PART OF THE
SHOW.
A FEW MINUTES LONG, USUALLY.
YOU DID ONE ON ROSEMARY BROWN.
WHO WAS SHE?

Falen says I'LL LET
LEAH TAKE THIS ONE.
THIS WAS LEAH'S SHOUT OUT.

A black and white picture shows a woman speaking into a microphone. She's in her forties, with curly hair in an afro and glasses. A banner behind her reads "Women and Development. 1975-1985."

Leah-Simone says ROSEMARY
BROWN WAS AMAZING.
SHE WAS THE FIRST BLACK WOMAN
AND WOMAN TO RUN FOR THE
LEADERSHIP OF A FEDERAL PARTY,
FOR THE NDP, AND NOT ONLY THAT,
SHE WAS AN ADVOCATE FOR WOMEN,
SHE WAS AN ADVOCATE FOR BROWN
AND BLACK PEOPLE AND INDIGENOUS
PEOPLE AT A TIME WHEN, YOU KNOW,
THERE WERE VERY FEW BLACK AND
BROWN WOMEN ON THE SCENE
POLITICALLY.
AND SO HER IMPACT IN CANADA WAS
SO HUGE, BUT, AGAIN, SHE IS A
PERSON I HAD NEVER HEARD OF
UNTIL PROBABLY ABOUT TWO YEARS
AGO.
AND I KNOW THAT'S CHANGED IN THE
CANADIAN SCHOOL SYSTEM NOW.
I HAVE A SISTER WHO'S A TEACHER
AND THEY'RE DOING A GREAT JOB AT
KIND OF PROMOTING AND PUSHING
OUT A LOT OF WOMEN IN CANADA
THAT WE DON'T USUALLY HEAR
ABOUT.
BUT ROSEMARY BROWN, SHE REALLY
TOUCHED A CORE WITH ME.
HER SLOGAN WHEN SHE RAN FOR THE
FEDERAL LEADERSHIP WAS "BROWN IS
BETTER."
WHICH, I MEAN, THAT IS SO
BAD-ASS.
YOU KNOW, IN THE LATE '70S,
EARLY '80S, THAT WAS HER
SLOGAN AND SHE WAS UNAPOLOGETIC
AND POWERFUL AND SOMEONE THAT I
FEEL THAT WE ALL SHOULD KNOW
MORE ABOUT.

Nam says THANK YOU.
I LEARNED ABOUT HER FROM
LISTENING TO YOUR PODCAST SO...
FALEN, WHY DO YOU THINK THESE
HISTORIES, SUCH AS ROSEMARY
BROWN'S, ARE SO UNDERTOLD?

Falen says BECAUSE I
THINK FOR THE MAJORITY OF OUR
TIME AS A COUNTRY, HISTORY HAS
BEEN WRITTEN BY WHITE MEN.
OUR STORIES AREN'T WRITTEN DOWN.
OUR STORIES AREN'T TOLD BECAUSE
IT WOULD GIVE US TOO MUCH POWER.

Nam says SO YOU THINK IT'S
INTENTIONAL?

Falen says I THINK SO, YEAH, DEFINITELY.
WE ARE STILL UNDER THE THUMB OF
COLONIALISM, AND I THINK THAT
THAT'S A SCARY THING.
WE'RE AT A TIME RIGHT NOW WHERE
IT SEEMS LIKE THINGS ARE
SHIFTING AND REALLY UNSETTLED.
I THINK IT'S INTENTIONAL.
I THINK IT'S A POWER MOVE.
AND I THINK PART OF THE REASON
WHY WE STARTED THIS WAS TO START
TO DISRUPT THAT POWER.
YOU KNOW, I JUST... I THINK OF
THE YOUNG CREE MAN WHO WAS JUST,
YOU KNOW, SHOT, AND THE NOT
GUILTY VERDICT THAT WAS JUST
HANDED DOWN, AND IT'S A REALLY
HARD TIME RIGHT NOW FOR
INDIGENOUS PEOPLE IN THIS
COUNTRY WITH THIS VERDICT
HAPPENING FOR COLTEN BOUSHIE AND
HIS FAMILY.
HIS FAMILY IS IN OTTAWA RIGHT
NOW, RIGHT?
AND THE PRIME MINISTER MADE THIS
REALLY INTERESTING STATEMENT.
SO I'M REALLY CURIOUS TO SEE HOW
MUCH WE HAVE CHANGED POST-CANADA
150.
I'M REALLY CURIOUS TO SEE AND I
THINK PART OF TELLING THESE
HISTORIES AND TELLING THESE
STORIES WILL HELP TO GIVE PEOPLE
A DIFFERENT SET OF KNOWLEDGE, A
DIFFERENT SET OF KNOWLEDGE AND
DIFFERENT SET OF SKILLS TO
UNDERSTAND WHO WE ARE, WHERE WE
COME FROM, AND HOW IT'S STILL
IMPACTING PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY TODAY.

Nam says AND IT MUST BE
POWERFUL TO REALIZE THAT YOU ARE
PART OF A CONVERSATION THAT'S
GETTING PEOPLE TALKING. KATIE?

Katie says OH, YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.
IT'S SO EXCITING BECAUSE, FIRST
OF ALL, JUST FROM LIKE A
PRODUCER'S PERSPECTIVE, TO GET
PEOPLE ENGAGED WITH YOUR CONTENT
CAN BE CHALLENGING, RIGHT, TO
SAY, HEY, DID YOU LIKE THIS
EPISODE?
TALK ABOUT IT ONLINE.
PRODUCERS STRUGGLE WITH THIS ALL
THE TIME.
BUT THE FACT THAT PEOPLE ARE
GOING OUT OF THEIR WAY TO TALK
TO US ABOUT THEIR STORIES AND
CHALLENGE SOME THINGS AND
REINFORCE OTHERS AND KIND OF
BRING STUFF... SOME KNOWLEDGE WE
MAY HAVE MISSED OR IT'S LIKE
ADJACENT, THAT'S VERY EXCITING.
AND IT'S SO INSPIRING TOO TO
FIND OUT THIS INFORMATION AND
LEARN THESE HISTORIES AND MAKE
YOU RECONSIDER YOUR OWN POSITION
WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK OF CANADIAN
HISTORY.

Nam says I KNOW SOME OF THE
TOPICS ARE VERY... THEY'RE HARD
TO TALK ABOUT.
I THINK THAT'S WHY YOU'RE
PROBABLY DOING IT.
BUT YOU ALSO GET TO SEE YOUR
PERSONALITIES.
WE GET TO SEE FALEN'S
PERSONALITY, WE SEE LEAH'S
PERSONALITY.
SO IS THAT INTENTIONAL AS WELL?

The caption changes to "tvo.org/theagenda."

Leah-Simone says THE WAY
WE TALK ON THE PODCAST IS THE
WAY WE TALK AND THAT IS THE WAY
WE DISCUSS HISTORY.
I DON'T THINK WE EVER WANTED TO
CENSOR OURSELVES OR TRY AND DO
KIND OF A STAID HISTORY LESSON,
BECAUSE THAT'S CERTAINLY NOT HOW
I LIKE TO CONSUME HISTORY.
AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF
PEOPLE HAVE COMMENTED, "OH, IT'S
STRANGE.
YOU DO THIS HISTORY PODCAST.
BUT YOU ALSO MAKE JOKES ABOUT
THINGS."
AND THAT WAS INTENTIONAL BECAUSE
A LOT OF THIS INFORMATION IS SO
HARD, AND BECAUSE WE'RE DEALING
WITH A LOT OF MARGINALIZED
GROUPS WHO DON'T GET TO HEAR
THEIR STORIES BUT ALSO THIS
INFORMATION A LOT OF TIMES IS
ABOUT TRAUMA.
SO WE DON'T WANT TO RE-TRAUMATIZE
PEOPLE.
A LOT OF TIMES THE WAY HISTORY
IS DELIVERED, BECAUSE IT'S SO
DIVORCED, IT CAN BE EVEN HARDER
TO HEAR.
SO WE USE HUMOUR AS A TOOL.
I MEAN, MOSTLY BECAUSE THAT'S
HOW WE TALK, BUT ALSO BECAUSE WE
WANT TO KIND OF DISSOLVE THAT
POWER OF THE COLONIZER, OF THE
PEOPLE WHO IMPLEMENTED THE
TRAUMA, OF THE, YOU KNOW,
SOMETIMES THE CANADIAN
GOVERNMENT WHO HISTORICALLY HAS
PERPETRATED A LOT OF THESE
STORIES THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
WITH THE INTERNMENT CAMP, WITH
INDIGENOUS PEOPLE BEING KICKED
OFF THEIR LAND.
IT'S DEFINITELY INTENTIONAL TO
TRY TO KEEP IT AS LIGHT AS
POSSIBLE BUT ALSO BEING MINDFUL
THAT WE'RE TELLING A REALLY
DELICATE, SERIOUS THING.

The caption changes to "Telling hard stories."

Falen says I THINK IF
IT WAS TOO HARD THE WHOLE WAY
THROUGH, THEN WE WOULD LOSE
PEOPLE.
SO A SPOONFUL OF SUGAR...

Nam says YOU'RE BOTH
PLAYWRIGHTS, RIGHT?
WHY DID YOU CHOOSE A PODCAST TO
TELL THESE STORIES?

Leah-Simone says IMMEDIACY.
I MEAN, PLAYS TAKE A LONG TIME
TO DEVELOP AND THEY TAKE A LOT
OF PEOPLE TO PUT ON.
AND SO WE LOVE THAT.
THERE WAS SOMETHING ABOUT CANADA
150, WHEN WE WERE TALKING ABOUT
IT, IT JUST SEEMED SO URGENT TO
DO IT RIGHT THEN BECAUSE THERE
WAS A LOT OF MISINFORMATION AND
A LOT OF, YOU KNOW, GREAT THINGS
ABOUT CANADA BEING PROMOTED BUT
WE WEREN'T REALLY SEEING ALL OF
THESE STORIES THAT WE KNOW.
SO WE THOUGHT, WELL, THIS WILL
BE THE FASTEST WAY TO GET THIS
OUT THERE.
HOPEFULLY SOMEONE WILL LISTEN
AND WILL TAKE IT FROM THERE AND
IT TURNED OUT PEOPLE DID.

Nam says QUITE A FEW PEOPLE
LISTENED, 100,000 DOWNLOADS.

Katie says WELL OVER.

Nam says WELL OVER THAT NOW.
THAT WAS IN DECEMBER.

Katie says I HAVEN'T CHECKED BUT WE'RE
PROBABLY CLOSER TO 200 AT THIS
POINT, 200,000.

Nam says SO YOU SURPASSED "THIS
AMERICAN LIFE" AND OPRAH WINFREY...

Katie says FOR THAT EPISODE.

Nam says THAT'S WILD.

Katie says THAT ONE EPISODE, YEAH.

Falen says WE FELT
REALLY GOOD.
EVERYBODY BURNED TO THEIR DATA.

Leah-Simone says IT WAS A LONG WEEKEND.
MY PHONE BILL IS GOING TO BE 200 dollars.
IT WAS AMAZING TO WATCH IT GO UP
AND UP AND UP THE CHARTS AND WE
CERTAINLY DID NOT EXPECT THAT AT
ALL.
I MEAN, I THINK KATIE HAD DONE A
REALLY GREAT JOB AT MANAGING OUR
EXPECTATIONS OF HOW MANY PEOPLE
LISTEN TO A CANADIAN PODCAST.
SO SHE SAID, YOU KNOW, PROBABLY
AT MOST 2,000 PEOPLE.
IF YOU HIT THAT, WE'RE DOING
REALLY GREAT.
AND POWER TO YOU.
AND THEN WHEN WE EVEN GOT ON THE
CHARTS OF ITUNES, WE'RE LIKE,
YAY, WE'RE ON THE CHARTS OF
ITUNES, WE'RE 101 OR WHATEVER.
AND THEN IT KEPT GOING UP FOR
DAYS.
IT WAS PRETTY ASTONISHING.

Nam says I'M THINKING YOU
PROBABLY DON'T HAVE THE SAME
KIND OF BUDGET AS OPRAH, RIGHT?

Katie says TOTALLY NOT.
THIS IS OUR WHOLE TEAM.

Nam says THIS IS THE WHOLE TEAM.
BUT YOU HAVE RESEARCHERS TOO, RIGHT?

Katie says WE HIRE
RESEARCHERS ON A PER EPISODE
BASIS AND WE WORK WITH MATT
MCKINNON WHO HELPS KIND OF
POKE HOLES IN ANYTHING HE THINKS
THE LISTENER MIGHT NEED TO KNOW
MORE ABOUT.

Nam says LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT A
PICTURE HERE OF YOUR BLANKET
BOARD TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT...
WHAT IS THIS?
THIS IS WHERE YOU DO YOUR WORK.

A picture shows the three standing underneath a blanket, with recording equipment.

Katie says YEAH, YEAH.
IT LOOKS LIKE WE'RE HAVING FUN
AND ARE SLIGHTLY TERRIFIED.

[LAUGHTER]

Katie says HIGH CAST RAVE.

Nam says WHAT'S THE PURPOSE OF
THE BLANKET?

Katie says TO MINIMIZE REFLECTION.
THEY HAVE A GORGEOUS CONDO.
BECAUSE IT'S IN A CONDO, AS MANY
PROBABLY VIEWERS AND LISTENERS
DO LIVE IN CONDOS IN TORONTO,
THEY'RE EXTREMELY, EXTREMELY
REFLECTIVE, WHICH MEANS THAT
ECHO AND BOUNCE HAPPEN ALL THE
TIME AND THAT CAN MAKE EDITING
REALLY HARD.
SO IF YOU NEED TO CUT A
SENTENCE, YOU'RE GOING TO BE
CUTTING THAT REFRACTION AND IT'S
GOING TO SOUND WEIRD TO THE EAR.
SO TO MAKE IT AS EASY FOR ME TO
EDIT AS POSSIBLE, WE HAVE THIS
BLANKET FOR IT AND WE BRING OUR
LAPTOPS AND THE MIKE'S ON A
TRIPOD.
IT'S HARD TO MAKE THE BLANKET
NOT TOUCH ANYTHING, BECAUSE IF
IT TOUCHES THE MIKE, YOU GET THAT...

She makes a scraping sound and continues
LET'S PROP THAT UP A LITTLE HIGHER.

Nam says YOUR LITTLE DOG TOO.

Katie says OH, MY GOSH.

Leah-Simone says ALWAYS
UPSET WE'RE IN A BLANKET PORT
WITHOUT HER.
I DEFINITELY, BEFORE WE STARTED
PODCASTING, I HAD THIS IDEA IN
MY HEAD, PEOPLE GO INTO THE
STUDIO AND IT'S LIKE THE CBC
KIND OF AND IT'S VERY
PROFESSIONAL.
AND I THINK IT SOUNDS GREAT.
AND WE DO THAT TO MAKE IT SOUND
REALLY GOOD.
BUT IT IS QUITE RIDICULOUS AT
TIMES WHEN YOU'RE SITTING IN A
VERY HOT AND SWEATY... WE ALL
KNOW EACH OTHER REALLY WELL NOW
BECAUSE WE PERFORM IN A BLANKET POD.

Nam says KNOWING THAT YOU'RE
DOING SO MUCH WITH SO LITTLE
MUST BE SO REWARDING.

Katie says YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.
THIS IS MY FAVOURITE PROJECT TO
WORK ON.THEY'RE SO
THESE GIRLS ARE SO SMART AND I
JUST FEEL SO, YOU KNOW, I'VE
GOT... I'M SO BLESSED TO WORK
WITH YOU GUYS.

Leah-Simone says RIGHT BACK ATCHA.

The caption changes to "Producer: Jane Burke, @jburketweets."

Nam says FALEN, LEAH, AND
KATIE, THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING
HERE AND CONTINUED SUCCESS WITH
"SECRET LIFE OF CANADA."
WE'LL BE LISTENING.

Katie says YAY!

Watch: Finding Canada's Missing History