Transcript: Is Ontario Prepared for a Nuclear Emergency? | Jan 30, 2018

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, purple gingham shirt, and spotted blue tie.

A caption on screen reads "Is Ontario prepared for a nuclear emergency? @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says ONTARIO HAS THREE
NUCLEAR POWER FACILITIES
OPERATING 18 REACTORS.
THAT ACTUALLY MAKES OUR PROVINCE
ONE OF THE LARGEST NUCLEAR
JURISDICTIONS IN THE WORLD.
LATE LAST YEAR - AND FOR THE
FIRST TIME IN ALMOST A DECADE -
ONTARIO UPDATED ITS EMERGENCY
RESPONSE PLAN AMID QUESTIONS AND
CONCERNS ABOUT AN AGING FLEET
LOCATED IN RELATIVELY DENSELY
POPULATED AREAS OF THE PROVINCE.
JOINING US NOW TO CONSIDER
WHETHER WE ARE WELL-ENOUGH
PREPARED IN CASE OF A NUCLEAR
EMERGENCY:
WE WELCOME:
STEPHANIE SMITH, DIRECTOR OF
OPERATIONS AND MAINTENANCE,
PICKERING NUCLEAR GENERATING STATION...

Stephanie is in her fifties, with short red hair. She's wearing purple-framed glasses and a black blazer.

Steve continues DAVE NOVOG, DIRECTOR, McMASTER
UNIVERSITY'S INSTITUTE OF ENERGY
STUDIES, AND A MEMBER OF
ONTARIO'S ADVISORY PANEL ON THE
NEW PROVINCIAL NUCLEAR EMERGENCY
RESPONSE PLAN...

Dave is in his forties, with shoulder-length straight auburn hair and a trimmed goatee. He's wearing a black blazer over a striped shirt.

Steve continues SHAWN-PATRICK STENSIL, SENIOR ENERGY ANALYST AT GREENPEACE...

Shawn is in his late thirties, with short gray hair and a stubble. He's wearing a gray suit and white shirt.

Steve continues AND THERESA McCLENAGHAN,
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF CELA, THE
CANADIAN ENVIRONMENTAL LAW ASSOCIATION.

Theresa is in her forties, with shoulder-length wavy auburn hair. She's wearing glasses, a burgundy blazer and a black shirt.

Steve continues WE ARE DELIGHTED TO WELCOME YOU TO OUR PROGRAM.
I THINK YOU FOR THE SECOND TIME.
YOU'VE BEEN HERE BEFORE.
YOU TWO FOR THE FIRST TIME.
AS WE CONSIDER THE ISSUE AT
HAND, LET'S JUST, MR. DIRECTOR,
IF YOU WOULD, BRING UP THIS MAP,
WHICH SHOWS IN THE PROVINCE OF
ONTARIO WHERE THE AFOREMENTIONED
NUCLEAR REACTORS ARE.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "Nuclear power stations near Ontario."

A map of Ontario pops up with locations highlighted with the nuclear symbol.

Steve says EAST OF TORONTO YOU HAVE
DARLINGTON AND PICKERING.
GO UP AND TO THE LEFT, THAT'S ON
THE EASTERN SHORE OF LAKE HURON,
IS THE BRUCE.
THEN WE'VE GOT QUITE A FEW, AS
YOU CAN SEE, IN THE UNITED
STATES AND BORDERING STATES,
WHICH, SOME WOULD ARGUE, HAVE AN
IMPACT ON WHAT GOES ON HERE, BUT
OF COURSE ARE NOT UNDER OUR
JURISDICTION.
BUT THAT'S WHAT THE NUCLEAR
POWER STATIONS IN AND NEAR
ONTARIO LOOK LIKE.
SHAWN-PATRICK, I WANT TO START
WITH YOU.
THE LAST NUCLEAR EMERGENCY
MASTER PLAN CAME OUT IN THE YEAR
2009.
SINCE THEN THERE WAS OF COURSE
THE FUKUSHIMA NUCLEAR DISASTER
IN JAPAN, WHICH I THINK WAS THE
LAST TIME WE HAD YOU ON OUR
PROGRAM.
WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S TAKEN SO
LONG TO UPDATE OUR PLAN?

The caption changes to "Shawn-Patrick Stensil. Greenpeace."
Then, it changes again to "A long time coming."

Shawn says
THERE'S A COUPLE OF REASONS.
WE HAVE 18 REACTORS IN ONTARIO,
AND WE HAVE TWO OR THREE PEOPLE
WITHIN THE PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT
THAT OVERSEE NUCLEAR
PREPAREDNESS.
WE SIMPLY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH
CAPACITY TO UPDATE OUR PLANS.
AND THE SECOND ISSUE IS, IN MY
MIND, THERE'S A COMPLACENT MIND
SET THAT SET IN IN THE
PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT RELATED TO
NUCLEAR RISK.
WE DON'T THINK IT'S A PROBLEM.
THIS IS SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS
FAR AWAY.
THE RISK OF AN ACCIDENT ISN'T
HIGH.
AND THE OTHER ISSUE IS THEY JUST
DON'T THINK IT'S THEIR
RESPONSIBILITY.
AFTER FUKUSHIMA, WHAT DID THE
PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT DO?
IT SIMPLY SENT A LETTER TO THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SAYING, YOU
KNOW, MAKE SURE EVERYTHING'S
OKAY.
AND IT SHOULDN'T DO THAT.
THE PROVINCE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR
OFFSITE EMERGENCY PREPAREDNESS.
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS... THE
CANADIAN ECO SAFETY COMMISSION
IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ON-SITE
SAFETY BUT THE PROVINCE HAS
CLEARED JURISDICTION ON OFF-SITE
SAFETY.

Steve says LET ME PICK UP A
WORD YOU SAID AND PUT IT TO
STEPHANIE, COMPLACENT.
THE INDUSTRY IS COMPLACENT WHEN
IT COMES TO THESE ISSUES.

Stephanie says I WOULD
ACTUALLY STRONGLY DISAGREE WITH THAT.
AFTER THE FUKUSHIMA ACCIDENT
THAT HAPPENED IN JAPAN, THE
INDUSTRY TAKES A LOOK AT WHAT
HAPPENS AT A WHOLE, WE STUDY IT,
AND WE WE DID AT ONTARIO POWER
GENERATION, WE LOOKED AT THAT
EVENT AND ASKED IS THAT
SOMETHING THAT COULD HAPPEN HERE?

A map of East Asia appears, showing China, North Korea, South Korea and Japan, and highlighting the location of Fukushima.
Pictures show the wreckage in and around the nuclear plant.

The caption changes to "Stephanie Smith. Pickering Nuclear Generating Station."

Stephanie says REALLY WHAT HAPPENED AT
FUKUSHIMA WAS THE UNEXPECTED HAPPENED.
YOU KNOW, THE TSUNAMI TOOK OUT
THEIR POWER.
SO WHAT OPG HAS DONE IS WE'VE
TAKEN A LOOK AND PUT SAFEGUARDS
INTO PLACE AND SPENT A LOT OF
MONEY, ACTUALLY, HAVING BACKUP
GENERATORS, OTHER WAYS TO ADD
COOLING TO THE REACTOR, AND
WE'VE DONE A LOT OF THAT WORK.
IN FACT, WE'VE ACTUALLY LED THE
INDUSTRY IN NORTH AMERICA IN
IMPROVING OUR PLANTS TO BE ABLE
TO RESPOND TO SOMETHING SIMILAR
TO WHAT HAPPENED AT FUKUSHIMA.

Steve says THERESA, FAIR TO SAY
LAKE ONTARIO IS NOT ABOUT TO
PRESENT US WITH A TSUNAMI AND
THEREFORE WHAT HAPPENED AT
FUKUSHIMA IS UNLIKELY TO HAPPEN
HERE AND THEREFORE WE DON'T
REALLY HAVE TO PREPARE FOR THAT?

The caption changes to "Theresa McClenaghan. Canadian Environmental Law Association."

Theresa says THE
PROBLEM AT FUKUSHIMA THAT THE
OFFICIAL REPORTS NOTED IS THEY
FELT A BIG ACCIDENT COULDN'T
HAPPEN AND THEY SAY THAT'S WHY
THE HARM WAS WORSE THERE THAN IT
SHOULD HAVE BEEN.
UNFORTUNATELY WE DO RUN INTO
THAT HERE IN ONTARIO AND IN
CANADA, AND OUR MESSAGE IS THAT
BIG ACCIDENTS CAN HAPPEN IN ALL
COMPLEX TECHNOLOGY, WHETHER IT'S
NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS LIKE THE
CANDU OR THE CHALLENGER.
THE ANSWER IS YOU NEED TO BE
PREPARED FOR AN EMERGENCY.
YES, WE WANT THOSE EXTRA BACKUP
POWER INSTALLED, ABSOLUTELY.
BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU DON'T
PREPARE FOR THE MOST SEVERE
ACCIDENT SO YOU CAN BETTER
PROTECT THE SURROUNDING
POPULATION, BECAUSE THERE ARE
CONCRETE THINGS YOU CAN DO TO
BETTER PROTECT THE POPULATION IF
YOU TAKE THOSE ACCIDENTS
SERIOUSLY.

Steve says ARE YOU SAYING THAT
WE ARE INADEQUATELY PREPARED
TODAY IN THE EVENT OF A BIG
ACCIDENT?

Theresa says YES.
YES, THAT'S MY VIEW.
I'VE LOOKED AT THE EMERGENCY
PLANS AT ALL OF CANADA'S NUCLEAR
PLANTS AND MY VIEW IS WE'RE NOT
ADEQUATELY PREPARED.

Steve says DAVE, WHAT'S YOUR VIEW?

The caption changes to "Dave Novog. McMaster University."

Dave says MY VIEW IS THE
PROVINCE HAS TAKEN EXCELLENT
STEPS TO IMPROVE THE EMERGENCY
RESPONSE PLAN.

Steve says SO WE ARE ADEQUATELY PREPARED?

Dave says I BELIEVE WE ARE ADEQUATELY
PREPARED TODAY.
I THINK THE PLAN HAS TO STRIKE A
BALANCE BETWEEN WHAT YOU CAN
PLAN FOR AND THE UNKNOWN
UNKNOWNS, AS DONALD RUMSFELD
WOULD SAY.
SO I THINK THE MAJOR UPDATE TO
THE PLAN THAT'S THERE IS THIS
IDEA OF CONTINGENCY PLANNING.
CONTINGENCY PLANNING ZONE,
PREPAREDNESS OF EQUIPMENT THAT
CAN BE USED IN CASE THE UNKNOWN
HAPPENS.
WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT MIGHT
BE, BUT THERE ARE NOW AT LEAST
PROVISIONS WITHIN THE PLAN THAT
CAN ADDRESS THROUGH CONTINGENCY
PLANNING SOME OF THOSE UNKNOWNS
THAT COULD OCCUR.

The caption changes to "Plan for the worst?"

Theresa says IF I
CAN JUMP IN ON THAT, STEVE.
THE CONTINGENCY PLAN THAT'S BEEN
PRESENTED TO THE ONTARIO NUCLEAR
EMERGENCY PLAN DOESN'T ACTUALLY
REQUIRE ANYBODY TO SET UP IN
ADVANCE WHERE THE ALTERNATIVE
EMERGENCY HEADQUARTERS WOULD BE,
DOESN'T REQUIRE EXTRA EDUCATION
OF THE PUBLIC IN THAT NEW
CONTINGENCY ZONE OF 20
KILOMETRES, DOESN'T REQUIRE
DISTRIBUTING POTASSIUM IODIDE TO
THOSE COMMUNITIES.
THEY SHOULD HAVE TAKEN THAT
20-KILOMETRE NUMBER BUT MAKE IT
THE DETAILED PLANNING ZONE.

Dave says I THINK THE
DETAILED PLANNING ZONE OF 10
KILOMETRES ACCORDING TO THE
ANALYSIS THAT WAS AVAILABLE IS STUFF.
WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IS,
THERE IS WORK DONE BY THE ROYAL
INSTITUTE IN LONDON THAT SAID
WHAT YOU WANT TO DO IS EXAMINE
YOUR PREPAREDNESS AND DEVELOP
CONTINGENCY STRATEGIES THAT ARE
FLEXIBLE AND SCALABLE ACROSS A
WIDER REGION FOR AN UNKNOWN
EVENT.
AND I THINK THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT
THE PLAN HAS PUT INTO PLACE, IS
THE ABILITY TO MOVE EQUIPMENT
AND TO DEVELOP NOT NEW EQUIPMENT
BUT PERHAPS UTILIZE THINGS IN
DIFFERENT WAYS.

Steve says DO A QUICK FOLLOW-UP
WITH YOU.
THE OLD PLAN WE USED TO HAVE
VERSUS THE NEW PLAN WE HAVE NOW,
WHAT'S THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE?

says THERE WERE TWO MAJOR DIFFERENCES.
THE FIRST IS IN THE PROCESS OF
CREATING THIS PLAN, THE
GOVERNMENT INITIATED A PUBLIC
CONSULTATION PROCESS AND AN
EXPERT ADVISORY GROUP.
AND I THINK UNIVERSALLY,
UNILATERALLY, THE FEEDBACK WE
RECEIVED AS AN ADVISORY PANEL
FROM ALL SUBMISSIONS IS THAT
THIS WAS A BIG POSITIVE
IMPROVEMENT IN PLANNING.
THE SECOND LARGEST CHANGE I
THINK IS THIS ADDITION OF A
CONTINGENCY PLANNING ZONE WHERE
MUNICIPALITIES MUST LOOK AT
ALTERNATIVE COMMUNITY CENTRES IN
DIFFERENT REGIONS WITHIN THEIR
MUNICIPALITY THAT THEY COULD USE
IN THE EVENT THAT THINGS UNKNOWN OCCUR.

Steve says SHAWN-PATRICK, WOULD
YOU AGREE THAT IT IS IN FACT
IMPOSSIBLE TO PREPARE OR PLAN
FOR EVERY POTENTIAL EVENTUALITY
UNDER THE SUN?
YOU HAVE TO BRING THE ISSUE
OF... OR THE NOTION OF
LIKELIHOOD INTO YOUR THINKING.
IS THAT FAIR TO SAY?

Shawn says YES.
AND I THINK WE CAN DO A BETTER
JOB OF PREPARING FOR EVENTS THAT
WE'VE SEEN IN THE REAL WORLD.
WHAT OUR CURRENT PLAN AND OUR
OLD PLAN DIDN'T DO WAS PREPARE
FOR ACCIDENTS WHERE THERE ARE
WIDESPREAD OFFSITE EFFECTS.
THOSE ARE THE TYPES OF ACCIDENTS
WE'VE SEEN AT FUKUSHIMA, WE'VE
SEEN AT CHERNOBYL.
PEOPLE ARE DISPLACED AND PEOPLE
ARE DISPLACED IN THE LONG TERM.
RIGHT NOW OUR EMERGENCY PLANS
ONLY DEAL WITH SMALL-SCALE
ACCIDENTS, A THREE MILE ISLAND
TYPE OF ACCIDENT.
SOME RADIATION IS RELEASED.
YOU NEED TO TRIGGER SOME
EMERGENCY MEASURES.
BUT LARGER EVACUATIONS,
LONG-TERM CONTAMINATION, HOW YOU
HOUSE PEOPLE OVER THE LONG TERM,
NONE OF THAT IS DEALT WITH IN A
DETAILED MANNER IN THE CURRENT
PLAN.

Steve says LET ME PUT THAT TO
STEPHANIE.
IS THAT IN FACT YOUR
UNDERSTANDING OF THINGS, THAT
THESE BIGGER ISSUES AS JUST
DESCRIBED ARE NOT INCLUDED?

Stephanie says A COUPLE
OF POINTS I'M GOING TO MAKE.
THE FIRST IS MY RESPONSIBILITY
IS THE PLANT MANAGER FOR THE
PICKERING POWER PLANT IS TO
FIRST OPERATE THE PLANT SO WE
NEVER HAVE SOME SORT OF AN
ACCIDENT OR LARGE SCALE.
I CAN GO INTO A LITTLE BIT ABOUT
WHAT WE DO.
THE OTHER THING IS YOU CAN'T
PLAN FOR EVERYTHING, BUT FROM
THE OPERATION OF THE POWER
PLANT, YOU KNOW, I'M RESPONSIBLE
TO MAKE SURE THAT IF AN EVENT
DOES HAPPEN, THAT IT'S
MITIGATED.
WE HAVE STRONG PROCEDURES.
WE HAVE STRONG DEFENCE AND...
THAT MEANS WE HAVE SYSTEMS THAT
OPERATE INDEPENDENT OF ONE
ANOTHER.
THE OTHER POINT THAT I WANT TO
MAKE IS WE JUST DID A
LARGE-SCALE DRILL.
WE DID THAT THE FIRST WEEK IN
DECEMBER AND THAT INVOLVED THE
STATION GOING THROUGH AN EVENT,
A SIMULATED EVENT...

Steve says SORRY, SIMULATED
EVENT OF WHAT?

The caption changes to "Fail safes on the floor."

Stephanie says A LARGE SCALE RELEASE, A
LARGE SCALE... MUCH LIKE A
CHERNOBYL SORT OF EVENT.
WE ALL SIMULATED IT.
WE HAD 30 AGENCIES RESPOND.
SO THAT TESTED THE ABILITY OF
THE INFORMATION FLOW BETWEEN THE
POWER PLANT AND THE PROVINCE AND
THE MUNICIPALITY.

Steve says HOW DID YOU DO?

Stephanie says WE DID VERY WELL.
WE MET ALL OUR DRILL OBJECTIVES.
THERE WAS 18 AREAS OF
IMPROVEMENT THAT WERE FOUND AND
WE'RE WORKING THROUGH THOSE AND
THAT WILL BE RELEASED TO THE
PUBLIC SO THEY CAN ACTUALLY SEE
WHAT THE ISSUES THAT CAME UP
DURING THE DRILL.

Steve says DOES THAT GIVE YOU
ANY ADDED CONFIDENCE?

Shawn says NO,
THE DRILLS, GOING BACK TO THE
PLAN, TEND TO DEAL WITH WHAT'S
ON SITE.
WHAT I'M INTERESTED IN IS DO WE
HAVE ADEQUATE MEASURES TO
PROTECT PEOPLE OFF-SITE?
DO WE HAVE THOSE IN THE
PROVINCE'S RESPONSIBILITY, ARE
THOSE MEASURES IN PLACE TO
PROTECT THOSE PEOPLE?

Steve says CAN I UNDERSTAND
THAT AGAIN?
YOU'RE SAYING HALF THE PEOPLE IN
THE PROVINCE LIVE WITHIN 100
CLICKS OF A PLANT?

Shawn says DARLINGTON PICKERING YOU HAVE
4600 PEOPLE, WINDSOR IN THE
SOUTHWEST AND BRUCE UP IN LAKE
HURON.
THAT'S ALMOST HALF OF ONTARIO.
SO THIS IS WHY IT IS A
SIGNIFICANT PUBLIC POLICY ISSUE,
IN MY VIEW, AND WHAT WE HAVEN'T
DONE IS SAY... YOU ASKED THE
QUESTION ABOUT LIKELIHOOD.
NUCLEAR RISK ASSESSMENTS SAY
ACCIDENTS ARE VERY, VERY
UNLIKELY.
IN THE REAL WORLD, WE'VE BEEN
SEEING THEM ABOUT ONCE A DECADE.
AND WHAT HAVE OTHER COUNTRIES
DONE IN RESPONSE TO THAT?
GERMANY, SWITZERLAND, AND NOW
SWEDEN HAVE ALL DECIDED INSTEAD
OF PREPARING FOR SMALL
THREE-MILE ISLAND ACCIDENTS,
THEY ARE GOING TO PREPARE FOR
ACCIDENTS THAT CAUSE WIDESPREAD
EFFECTS.
AND WHAT THAT MEANS IS THERE'S
TANGIBLE PUBLIC BENEFIT TO THAT.
THEY ARE EXPANDING THEIR
EMERGENCY ZONES, SO OUT TO 20
KILOMETRES.
SO IN TORONTO, FOR PICKERING,
THAT BRINGS YOU UP TO I THINK
VICTORIA PARK.

Steve says THE EAST END OF
TORONTO, SCARBOROUGH BASICALLY.

Shawn says ALL OF SCARBOROUGH WOULD BE
COVERED.
THEY WILL HAVE DETAILED PLANS IN
PLACE FOR 20 KILOMETRES TO
EVACUATE PEOPLE.
AND ALSO OUT TO 100 KILOMETRES,
YOU WILL HAVE THE CAPACITY TO
MONITOR FOR HOT SPOTS.

Steve says LET ME ASK DAVE.
DAVE, DO WE HAVE THAT KIND OF
PLANNING IN PLACE?

Dave says I THINK OUR
PLANS ARE AT A VERY DETAILED
LEVEL TO 10 KILOMETRES.
THINGS LIKE BUSING,
TRANSPORTATION, POLICE OFFSITE
EMERGENCY RESPONSE TEAMS AND HOW
THEY WORK.

Steve says DO WE NEED TO GO TO
20, THOUGH, AS SHAWN-PATRICK IS
SUGGESTING?

Dave says I THINK THE DISTANCE OF 10
KILOMETRES ADDRESSES A
LARGE-SCALE... LARGE SPECTRUM OF
ACCIDENTS, FROM THOSE WHICH
SHAWN-PATRICK MENTIONED, ALL THE
WAY UP TO MORE SEVERE ACCIDENTS.
AND I THINK THAT THE ANALYSIS
DOES NOT JUST LOOK AT THREE MILE
ISLAND TYPE EVENTS.
THE ANALYSIS ACTUALLY LOOKS AT A
BROAD SPECTRUM OF EVENTS
INVOLVING SIGNIFICANT AMOUNTS OF
RADIATION RELEASE.
SO FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, WHAT WE
NEED TO OBTAIN IS A BALANCE
BETWEEN THE RISKS THAT WE
DETERMINE FROM A NUCLEAR
ACCIDENT AND THOSE RISKS THAT
OCCUR FROM EVACUATION, FROM
PUTTING PLANNING CENTRES OUT TOO
FAR AWAY FROM WHERE THEY'RE
NEEDED.
IT'S EASY TO SAY WE SHOULD JUST
EVACUATE EVERYBODY.
BUT EMERGENCY PLANNERS WILL KNOW
THAT EVACUATIONS HURT PEOPLE.
PEOPLE ARE INJURED OR EVEN DIE
DURING AN EVACUATION.
SO YOU HAVE TO BE PREPARED AS A
PLANNER TO JUDGE WHERE IS THE
MOST APPROPRIATE DISTANCE TO PUT
A RECEPTION CENTRE SO THAT YOU
MINIMIZE THE IMPACT OF THE
EVACUATION ON THE POPULATION, AS
WELL AS MAKING SURE IT'S
SUFFICIENTLY FAR OUT SO THAT YOU
MINIMIZE THE RISK OF THAT
FACILITY BEING CONTAMINATED.

Steve says THERESA, DO YOU WANT
TO COME BACK ON THAT?

Theresa says YEAH.
IN JAPAN, WHICH IS OFTEN
MENTIONED BY THE INDUSTRY AS A
REASON NOT TO EVACUATE BECAUSE
PEOPLE DID DIE FROM EVACUATION
OR AFTER EVACUATION, THE REASON
WAS THAT THEY HADN'T IMAGINED
THAT THEY MIGHT HAVE TO EVACUATE
VULNERABLE PEOPLE, SUCH AS
SENIORS NEEDING COMPLEX CARE IN
HOSPITALS.
SO MANY OF THOSE PEOPLE HAD NO
HEALTH PROFESSIONALS LEFT.
THEY LEFT WITH THEIR FAMILIES.
AND THEY WERE EVACUATED TO
GYMNASIUM FLOORS WITH NO CARE.
SO THE REPORTS AND THE ANALYSIS
SHOW THAT IF YOU HAD PLANNED FOR
EVACUATING THOSE FACILITIES, HAD
PROPER PLACES TO TAKE THEM,
FEWER PEOPLE WOULD HAVE DIED.

Steve says DOES OUR NEW PLAN
INCORPORATE THAT?

Theresa says NO, OUR NEW PLAN DOES NOT DO
THAT BECAUSE IT'S STILL STICKING
WITH 10 KILOMETRES.
SO WHAT WE'RE SAYING IS YOU
CAN'T JUST IMPROVISE TO 20
KILOMETRES OR 30 KILOMETRES, AS
HAPPENED IN FUKUSHIMA AND EVEN
BEYOND ON THE FLY WITH
VULNERABLE PEOPLE IN LONG-TERM
CARE HOMES, WITH HOSPITALS, WITH
KIDS IN ARENAS AND SCHOOLS IN
THAT AREA, ESPECIALLY SINCE
WE'RE IN SUCH A POPULATED AREA
COMPARED TO JAPAN, OR COMPARED
TO MOST OTHER PLACES IN THE
WORLD THAT HAVE NUCLEAR POWER.

Steve says DAVE, CAN I FOLLOW
UP BY ASKING: WHAT WOULD BE THE
HARM IN PLANNING FOR 20
KILOMETRES AS OPPOSED TO 10?

The caption changes to "Learning from Fukushima."

Dave says SO YOU CAN
IMAGINE A SITUATION WHERE WE NOW
PUT THE RECEPTION CENTRES EVEN
FURTHER AWAY.
AND EXACTLY THE SAME TRADE-OFF,
THE EXACT SAME PEOPLE, THE
VULNERABLE POPULATION THAT
THERESA MENTIONED, ARE NOW GOING
TO BE DISPLACED TO A FURTHER
DISTANCE.
AND WHAT YOU WANT TO DO IS
MINIMIZE THEIR TIME IN TRANSIT.
YOU WANT TO GET THEM TO THE CARE
THEY NEED IN AN APPROPRIATE
AMOUNT OF TIME.
THIS IS REALLY A BALANCE.
THIS REQUIRES EXPERT JUDGMENT
AND PUBLIC DEBATE TO ASSESS
WHERE THOSE BOUNDARIES SHOULD
BE.
AND BY SETTING THE BOUNDARIES
TOO FAR, YOU MAY INJURE PEOPLE
IN A CERTAIN WAY, AND BY SETTING
THEM TOO CLOSE, YOU MAY INJURE
THEM THE OTHER WAY.
SO I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR US
TO REALLY ASSESS AND DISCUSS
WHAT THAT TOLERABLE RISK LEVEL
IS AS A PROVINCE.

Steve says I DON'T MEAN TO BE
SILLY ABOUT THIS, BUT CAN YOU
SAW IT OFF AT 15 CLICKS AND JUST
COMPROMISE?
IS THAT HOW IT WORKS?

[LAUGHTER]

Dave says I THINK THE
DISCUSSION ON WHERE THESE
BOUNDARIES SHOULD BE, 10
KILOMETRES OR 20 KILOMETRES OR
15 KILOMETRES IS INFLUENCED BOTH
BY TECHNICAL ANALYSIS, HIGHLY
TECHNICAL ANALYSIS ON DISPERSION
OF RADIATION AND WEATHER
PATTERNS, AS WELL AS BY EXPERT
OPINION ON WHAT IS AN
APPROPRIATE EVACUATION FOR
SOCIETY, AND I THINK THE
CONTINGENCY PLANNING ZONE DOES
ASK THE MUNICIPALITIES TO
IDENTIFY POPULATION DENSITIES
BEYOND 10 KILOMETRES.
IT DOES ASK THEM TO IDENTIFY
POTENTIAL VULNERABLE LOCATIONS
OF PEOPLE AND MAKE SURE THAT THE
PROVINCE IS AWARE OF WHERE AND
WHEN THESE PEOPLE MIGHT NEED TO
BE EVACUATED.

Steve says LET ME FOLLOW UP
WITH STEPHANIE ON THIS IDEA OF
THE DENSE POPULATIONS BECAUSE IT
IS THE CASE THAT OUR... NOT SO
MUCH BRUCE BUT CERTAINLY
PICKERING AND DARLINGTON ARE NOT
TOO FAR AWAY FROM WHERE MILLIONS
OF PEOPLE LIVE, AND I'D LIKE A
BETTER UNDERSTANDING IN YOUR
MIND AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THE
LOCAL POPULATION KNOWS WHAT TO
DO IN THE EVENT OF SOME KIND OF
NUCLEAR MISHAP?

The caption changes to "Raising the alarm."

Stephanie says I WILL
TELL YOU THAT, YOU KNOW, OPG
DOES SPEND A LOT OF TIME IN THE
COMMUNITY AND WE'VE ACTUALLY GOT
VERY GOOD COMMUNITY SUPPORT FOR
THE CONTINUED OPERATION OF THE
PICKERING SITE.
I THINK EDUCATION IS SOMETHING
THAT NEEDS TO, YOU KNOW, ONCE
PEOPLE UNDERSTAND, THEY FEEL A
LITTLE BIT MORE COMFORTABLE BUT,
YOU KNOW, MY RESPONSIBILITIES
ARE, LIKE I SAID, TO ENSURE THAT
THE PLANT IS OPERATED SAFELY.
I LIKE TO GO OUT IN THE
COMMUNITY AND EXPLAIN.
AND ONCE PEOPLE KIND OF GET AN
UNDERSTANDING OF, YOU KNOW, HOW
THE PLANT OPERATES AND THE RULES
AND REGULATIONS... YOU KNOW, WE
DO GET GOOD COMMUNITY SUPPORT.

Steve says YOU OVERSEE SIX
REACTORS, RIGHT?

Stephanie says I DO.

Steve says WHAT FAIL-SAFES DO
YOU HAVE IN PLACE SO THAT THERE
IS A MALFUNCTION, NOTHING BAD
HAPPENS?

Stephanie says THE REACTORS ARE
CANDU-DESIGNED.
THEY'RE MUCH DIFFERENT DESIGN,
AND I KNOW MY PANEL MIGHT
QUESTION ME ON THIS, BUT THE
CANDU DESIGN IS MUCH DIFFERENT
THAN THE DESIGNS THAT WERE IN
FUKUSHIMA AND CHERNOBYL, ETC.
OUR REACTORS ARE, I'M GOING TO
SAY, THEY'RE A LITTLE BIT OF A
PAIN TO GET TO OPERATE.
YOU HAVE TO KIND OF COAX THEM UP.
WE DO HAVE INDEPENDENT SAFETY
SYSTEMS THAT MONITOR PARAMETERS
INDEPENDENTLY.
ONE OF THOSE SAFETY SYSTEMS IS
ACTUALLY WHAT WE CALL
SEISMICALLY QUALIFIED.
SO IN CASE OF AN EARTHQUAKE,
WE'RE GUARANTEED THAT WE'RE ABLE
TO SHUT THE REACTOR DOWN.
WE HAVE MANY PROCEDURES IN PLACE
AND WE ALSO REGULARLY TEST OUR
SAFETY EQUIPMENT TO ENSURE THAT
IF IT WAS REQUIRED TO BE NEEDED,
THAT IT DOES OPERATE CORRECTLY.
SO YOU KNOW WE OPERATE THE PLANT
BASED ON THE DESIGN AND THE
SAFETY REQUIREMENTS AND WE TEST
TO MAKE SURE THAT THESE THINGS OPERATE.
WE ALSO DO REGULAR DRILLS WITH
THE STAFF, TO TEST THE ABILITY
OF THE STAFF TO BE ABLE TO
RESPOND TO SUCH AN EMERGENCY.
THERE'S QUALIFICATIONS, LIKE
MYSELF, I'M WHAT YOU CALL AN
EMERGENCY RESPONSE MANAGER.
SO IF WE WERE TO HAVE ONE OF THE
CATASTROPHIC EVENTS THAT WE'VE
BEEN TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, I
GO TO A CENTRE, I'M THE ONE
THAT'S RESPONSIBLE FOR MAKING
SURE THAT FROM A TECHNICAL
PERSPECTIVE, THAT THE PLANT IS
BEING OPERATED CORRECTLY...

Steve says IF... SORRY.
IF YOU'RE ALIVE.

Stephanie says OH, I'M GOING TO BE ALIVE.
ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW WHAT?
I LIVE WITHIN 10 KILOMETRES OF
THE DARLINGTON NUCLEAR POWER
PLANT AND MY CHILDREN ACTUALLY
WENT TO SCHOOL CLOSE TO THE
NUCLEAR POWER PLANT.
YOU KNOW, I WAS ALWAYS...
OBVIOUSLY I WORK FOR THE
COMPANY, BUT, YOU KNOW, MY
CHILDREN'S SCHOOL MADE IT VERY
CLEAR, THEY HAD BROCHURES.
THEY DID DRILLS AT THE SCHOOL TO
MAKE SURE THAT THEY COULD, YOU
KNOW, GET THE CHILDREN OUT
SAFELY, AND I'VE NEVER HAD AN
ISSUE WORKING IN A NUCLEAR POWER PLANT.

Steve says SHAWN-PATRICK, IN
YOUR VIEW, HOW ADEQUATELY
PREPARED ARE PEOPLE WHO LIVE
NEAR THESE THINGS TO RESPOND IN
THE EVENT SOMETHING BAD HAPPENS?

Shawn says I
THINK PICKERING IS A GOOD STRESS
TEST, IF SOMETHING WERE TO GO
WRONG AT PICKERING, IT'S A GOOD
SITE TO SAY WOULD OUR PLANS BE
SUFFICIENT BECAUSE IT IS SO
DENSELY POPULATED.
ON AWARENESS, A FREEDOM OF
INFORMATION REQUEST I PUT IN TO
OPG A FEW YEARS AGO, I OBTAINED
POLLING THAT THERE WAS FAIRLY
LOW AWARENESS OF WHAT TO DO.

Steve says DO YOU REMEMBER THE NUMBERS?

Shawn says IT WAS 2014, BUT IT WAS
FAIRLY LOW.
THE CANADIAN NUCLEAR SAFETY
COMMISSION HAS SINCE REQUIRED
THEM TO START DISTRIBUTING
AWARENESS MATERIALS... BUT
THAT'S AFTER 40 YEARS OF
OPERATION.
WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT THIS
PLANT IS IN TORONTO,
EFFECTIVELY.
AND POPULATION CONTINUES TO
GROW.
IS EVERYONE AWARE OF WHAT TO DO?
I DON'T THINK SO.
WHEN IT COMES TO ALL THE
TECHNICAL ISSUES ABOUT IF AN
ACCIDENT WERE TO HAPPEN, I'M
SURE YOUR TEAM IS DOING A GREAT
JOB.
BUT WHAT WE'VE LEARNED FROM
OTHER ACCIDENTS WORLD WIDE WAS
FUKUSHIMA... IT WASN'T THE
TSUNAMI THAT CAUSED THE
ACCIDENT.
THIS WAS THE FINDINGS OF THE
INVESTIGATION COMMITTEE.
IT WAS THE FACT THAT THEY HAD A
BLIND SPOT.
THEY ACTUALLY HAD THE RISK
STUDIES TO SHOW THAT TSUNAMI
COULD HIT THE PLANT.
THEY SHOULD HAVE UPGRADED THE
PLANT AND THEY DIDN'T.
IT'S CALLED REGULATORY FAILURE.
THAT COULD HAPPEN ANYWHERE,
INCLUDING HERE.
IT WOULDN'T BE A TSUNAMI.
WE WILL HAVE OUR OWN BLIND SPOT.
I THINK WE...

Steve says A BLIND SPOT
SUGGESTS ARROGANCE...

Stephanie says CAN I ADD SOMETHING?

Shawn says OR COMPLACENCY.

Steve says ARROGANCE OR COMPLACENCY.

Stephanie says WHEN I FIRST JOINED ONTARIO
POWER GENERATION, THE PLANTS
WERE DESIGNED FOR WHAT WE CALL A
DESIGN BASED ACCIDENTS.
THESE ARE ACCIDENTS THAT ARE
POSTULATED, LOOSE OF COOL ANT OR
CONTAINMENT.
AFTER FUKUSHIMA WE REALIZED WE
HAD TO PREPARE FOR THE
UNPREPARABLE.
WHAT WE HAVE IS A NEW SET, A WAY
OF DIAGNOSING ISSUES THAT ARE
MORE SYSTEMATICALLY BASED.
SO IT'S NOT SO MUCH AS WHAT
CAUSED THE BIG HOLE BUT HOW TO
REACT TO IT AND HOW TO MITIGATE
THAT EVENT.
SO WE'VE SPENT A LOT OF, YOU
KNOW, A LOT OF SCIENTISTS HAVE
BEEN INVOLVED, WE'VE GOT A LOT
OF PROCEDURES, WE'VE ADDED
EQUIPMENT JUST SO THAT WE CAN
THEN DEAL WITH SOMETHING THAT WE
HAVEN'T THOUGHT OF BEFORE.
WE DO PRACTICE THAT ON A REGULAR
BASIS.

Steve says CAN I SHOW THESE?
SURE, I CAN.
CAMERA TWO, DO YOU WANT TO ZOOM
IN ON THAT.

Steve holds up a box of pills that reads "RadBlock."

He continues THAT'S CALLED RAD BLOCK.
I SHOULD GET SOMEBODY WHO KNOWS
ABOUT THIS TO EXPLAIN IT.
DAVE, IF SOMETHING HAPPENS,
PEOPLE WHO LIVE WITHIN 10 CLICKS
OF A NUCLEAR REACTOR ARE URGED
TO TAKE ONE OF THE TABLETS
INSIDE HERE.

Dave says A DIRECTIVE
WOULD BE ISSUED BY THE PROVINCE.
USUALLY ACCOMPANIED WITH A
TECHNIQUE CALLED SHELTERING,
WHERE PEOPLE WOULD BE ASKED TO
STAY IN THEIR LOCAL RESIDENCE OR
TO STAY... WITHOUT GOING
OUTSIDE.
COUPLED WITH THAT WOULD BE A
RECOMMENDATION TO TAKE AN IODINE
TABLET.
IT'S NON-RADIOACTIVE IODINE...
YOUR THYROID IS A GLANDS IN YOUR
BODY THAT HAS AN AFFINITY FOR
IODINE, IF YOU LIKE.
BY TAKING THE TABLET YOU FILL UP
YOUR THYROID, ESSENTIALLY, AND
IT BLOCKS RADIOACTIVE IODINE YOU
MIGHT BE EXPOSED TO FROM
ACCUMULATING IN YOUR THYROID.

Steve says EVERYBODY AT THE
PLANT HAS THESE?

Stephanie says IN FACT I
GOT MINE FROM DARLINGTON.

Shawn says COMMENT ABOUT HOW THIS CAME ABOUT.
WE ONLY STARTED DISTRIBUTING
IODINE PILLS IN 2014.
IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN A DECISION
THE PROVINCE MADE.
THE PROVINCE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR
OFFSITE EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT.
IT CAME FROM THE FEDERAL
REGULATOR, THE NUCLEAR SAFETY
COMMISSION.
THEY HEARD IN HEARINGS FROM
HUNDREDS OF ONTARIANS HOW THE
PROVINCE WAS DRAGGING ITS FEET
ON REVIEWING THE PLANS, HOW THE
PLANS WERE INADEQUATE.
THEY PUT A LICENCE REQUIREMENT
ON OPG REQUIRING THEM TO
DISTRIBUTE THEM OR DELIVER THEM
WITHIN 10 KILOMETRES.
THAT DECISION SHOULD HAVE BEEN
MADE BY THE PROVINCE.
IT WASN'T.
AT THE TIME THE AGENCY SAID THE
10-KILOMETRE ZONE IS ARBITRARY
BUT WE'RE USING IT BECAUSE IT
EXISTS AND IT'S THE PROVINCE'S
DECISION.
OTHER COUNTRIES, SWITZERLAND
DELIVERS ITS PILLS WITHIN 50
KILOMETRES.
NEW BRUNSWICK, WITHIN 20
KILOMETRES.
SO I THINK THERE IS A GOOD
DISCUSSION ON, IS IT ADEQUATE
ENOUGH IN THE GTA THAT WE'RE
ONLY DELIVERING THOSE WITHIN 10
KILOMETRES WHEN IN THE EVENT OF
AN EMERGENCY, PEOPLE MAY NEED
THEM.
HOW DO WE GET THEM TO PEOPLE?

The caption changes to "Connect with us: @theagenda, TVO.org, Facebook, YouTube, Periscope, Instagram."

Dave says ONE THING I
CAUTION MY STUDENTS ABOUT AND
THE PUBLIC AND SO ON AT THE
UNIVERSITY.
THIS IS NOT A MAGIC BULLET THAT
STOPS RADIATION.
THIS PROTECTS YOU FROM ONE KIND
OF RADIATION.
I THINK AN ADEQUATE RESPONSE
PLAN INVOLVES A MIX OF ITEMS
SUCH AS THAT, AS WELL AS
SHELTERING, AS WELL AS
EVACUATION, AND THE PROVINCIAL
RESPONSE PLAN IS REALLY TRYING
TO INTEGRATE MANY OF THOSE
THINGS TO MINIMIZE THE RISK TO
THE PEOPLE LIVING NEAR NUCLEAR
STATIONS.
WHAT THOSE... YOU KNOW, THE
TECHNICAL BENEFITS OF
DISTRIBUTING HERE OR THERE OR
FURTHER, I THINK THESE THINGS
YOU CAN PROBABLY LOOK AT THROUGH
SEVERAL STUDIES.
I KNOW THE INITIAL LOCATION OF
THAT DISTRIBUTION IS SET AT A
CERTAIN DISTANCE.
WHAT THE OPTIMAL DISTANCE MIGHT
BE I THINK IS STILL OPEN FOR DISCUSSION.

Steve says THERESA, DO YOU
THINK THESE ARE ADEQUATELY
DISTRIBUTED RIGHT NOW?

Theresa says NO.
RIGHT NOW PEOPLE WITHIN 50
KILOMETRES CAN ASK FOR THEM,
ALTHOUGH THAT'S NOT WIDELY
PUBLICIZED BY THE OPERATORS.

Steve says CAN GET THEM FREE?

Theresa says GET THEM FREE.
BRUCE DID SEND OUT COUPONS IN
THEIR 50-KILOMETRE ZONE, BUT OPG
HAS NOT DONE THAT.
THAT SHOULD BE DONE.
IN THE MEANTIME, THE COMMITTEE
THAT DAVE JUST SAT ON AGREED
THAT WE NEED MORE MODELLING FOR
THE TECHNICAL BACKUP FOR THINGS
LIKE DISTRIBUTION WHICH IS ONE
OF THE THINGS I POINTED OUT IN
RESPONDING TO THE PROVINCE WHEN
I LOOKED AT THE STUDIES THAT THE
PROVINCE WAS RELYING ON, BECAUSE
EVEN THOUGH IT'S NOT A PANACEA,
THAT'S FOR SURE, AND EVACUATION
IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT IF YOU
CAN JUST GET PEOPLE RIGHT AWAY
FROM THE EXPOSURE ENTIRELY, BUT
AT THE SAME TIME IN LIGHT OF THE
PREVIOUS ACCIDENTS, THYROID
CANCER IN CHILDREN HAS BEEN ONE
OF THE PRIMARY CONSEQUENCES,
LIKE CHERNOBYL, FOR EXAMPLE.
SO IT'S ONE THING YOU CAN DO,
AND IT'S EARLY IN THE ACCIDENT.
IT'S THE OTHER REASON THAT
THAT'S SO IMPORTANT.
IT'S SO IMPORTANT TO HAVE
POTASSIUM PILLS ON HAND TO
CONSUME THEM EITHER JUST BEFORE
AN ACTUAL RADIOACTIVE RELEASE
FROM THE PLANT OR WITHIN THE
FIRST COUPLE OF HOURS.
AFTER THAT, THEIR EFFECTIVENESS
TAILS OFF.

Steve says GOTCHA.
SHELDON, CAN YOU BRING UP THE
MAP THAT WE STARTED THIS
DISCUSSION WITH?
WE'VE TALKED ALREADY ABOUT THE
BRUCE, IN THE TOP LEFT CORNER.
WE'VE TALKED ABOUT PICKERING AND
DARLINGTON, WHICH ARE THE PLANTS
OF COURSE WE'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR
HERE IN THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO.

The map appears again.

Steve continues WHAT WE HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT
YET, OF COURSE, ARE THE AMERICAN
PLANTS, WHICH ARE ACTUALLY ALSO
FAIRLY CLOSE TO WHERE PEOPLE
LIVE, AND IN PARTICULAR,
SOUTHWESTERN ONTARIO WHERE
PEOPLE IN WINDSOR WOULD
PRESUMABLY BE AFFECTED BY
ANYTHING THAT TRANSPIRED AT THE
TWO PLANTS THAT ARE IN ITS
IMMEDIATE VICINITY.
LET'S GO THERE.
STEPHANIE, HOW MUCH INFLUENCE,
IF ANY, DO WE HAVE OR CONTACT
WITH OUR AMERICAN COUNTERPARTS
TO ENSURE THAT WHATEVER HAPPENS
DOWN THERE, WHICH MAY NOT BE OUR
RESPONSIBILITY BUT WHICH WILL
HAVE AN IMPACT ON US, WE CAN DEAL WITH?

The caption changes to "Our nuclear neighbours."

Stephanie says WELL, I'LL
TELL YOU THAT THE NUCLEAR
INDUSTRY IS ACTUALLY A VERY
TIGHT INDUSTRY.
WE HAVE WHAT WE CALL THE WORLD
ASSOCIATION OF NUCLEAR
OPERATIONS, AND THAT IS A FORUM
THAT WE SHARE INFORMATION AND WE
ALSO SUBMIT OURSELVES, AND THE
AMERICANS DO IT TOO, WHERE WE GO
IN AND WE LOOK AT THE
PROCEDURES, THE POLICIES, AND
THEIR RESPONSE PLANS FOR
RESPONDING TO AN EVENT FROM THE
POWER PLANT'S PERSPECTIVE, AND
THAT'S DONE ON A BIANNUAL BASIS
FOR ALL NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS IN
NORTH AMERICA.
SO WE... YOU KNOW, WE LOOK AT
THEIR OPERATION, DETERMINE...
THE WORLD ASSOCIATION LOOKS AT
THEIR OPERATION, MAKES
RECOMMENDATIONS TO IMPROVE, AND
THAT'S SHARED ACROSS THE
INDUSTRY.
SO WE SHARE QUITE... WE USE THE
TERM OP-EX, WHICH IS OPERATING
EXPERIENCE.
WE LOOK AT THAT VERY CLOSELY.
SO ANY OPERATIONAL ISSUE THAT
OCCURS IN A PLANT IN THE U.S.,
WE LOOK AT TO SEE IF IT APPLIES
HERE AND WE DO THE SAME THINGS.
LIKE I SAID WE'RE A TIGHT
INDUSTRY AND WE SHARE AND WE DO
LEARNINGS AND WE HELP WHEN
REQUIRED.
SO IF THERE IS A REQUIREMENT FOR
ASSISTANCE AT A POWER PLANT IN
THE U.S., WE SUPPORT THAT AS WELL.

Steve says DO PEOPLE WHO LIVE
IN WINDSOR KNOW THERE ARE THREE
POWER PLANTS NOT TOO FAR AWAY
AND WE HAVE NO JURISDICTION OVER THEM?

Stephanie says I'M NOT SURE OF THAT ANSWER.

Steve says DO YOU KNOW?

Shawn says I WAS DOWN WITH AMHERSTBURG
COUNCIL IN THE SUMMER AND ONE OF
THE THINGS THE COUNCILLOR SAID
TO US IN THE 1990s THE
PROVINCE WAS DOWN HERE REGULARLY
TESTING FOR DRILLS.
AND WE DON'T HEAR FROM THEM MUCH
ANYMORE.
AND A BIG PROBLEM FOR THOSE
COMMUNITIES, ONE IS AWARENESS,
AS YOU MENTIONED, BUT THE SECOND
ISSUE IS FUNDING.
WHAT HAPPENS FOR THE OTHER SITES
WITHIN ONTARIO IS OPG OR BRUCE
POWER WILL COVER THE COSTS.
IN THE CASE OF SOUTHWESTERN
ONTARIO, IT'S APPARENTLY COVERED
THROUGH A CONTRACT WITH THE
OPERATOR OF THE AMERICAN
STATION.
IT HASN'T BEEN RENEWED IN YEARS.
AND THAT MUNICIPALITY IS
STRUGGLING TO PAY TO MAINTAIN
PUBLIC SAFETY AT EQUAL LEVELS TO
HERE IN TORONTO, WHICH IS
UNFAIR.
AND THAT'S SOMETHING AGAIN WHERE
THE GOVERNMENT HAS DROPPED THE
BALL.
THE REVIEW THEY JUST DID DID NOT
CONSIDER, HOW ARE WE GOING TO
FUND THESE OTHER SITES THAT
AREN'T NEAR ONTARIO REACTORS.

Dave says I'D SAY THERE
IS RECOGNITION FROM THE
PROVINCE.
BECAUSE IF YOU LOOK AT THE DELTA
CHANGES BETWEEN 2009 AND THE
UPDATE THAT CAME OUT IN
DECEMBER, THE ISSUES RAISED BY
SOME OF THE TOWNSHIPS ARE
ADDRESSED EXPLICITLY.
THEY WEREN'T THERE IN 2009, AND
I MIGHT AGREE THAT PRIOR TO
2009... PRIOR TO THIS UPDATE,
NOT ALL OF THEIR CONCERNS WERE
BEING ADDRESSED.
BUT I THINK BY HAVING A MASTER
PLAN THAT SPECIFICALLY
REFERENCES THOSE COMMUNITIES AND
SAYS, THE PROVINCE MUST LOOK
AFTER THEM, THIS IS THE FIRST
STEP TO CORRECTING THE
SITUATION.

Steve says DAVE, I DO WANT TO
FOLLOW UP WITH THIS, THOUGH.
THE AMHERSTBURG FIRE CHIEF SAYS IN MY 41 YEARS, NEVER HAS EVER
KEPT ME UP AT NIGHT EXCEPT THIS.
THIS IS WHAT HE WORRIES ABOUT.
DOES HE HAVE REASON TO WORRY?

Dave says I WOULD THINK THAT... EXACTLY
WHAT SHAWN-PATRICK SAID.
INFORMATION AND COMMUNICATION
AND PLANNING HAS TO HAPPEN, AND
I THINK WHAT WAS MISSING IN THE
2009 MASTER PLAN IS, YOU KNOW,
THERE WAS SOME REFERENCE TO
FERMY BUT NOTHING TO THE
SPECIFIC TOWNSHIPS AND WHO IS
RESPONSIBLE FOR THOSE TOWNSHIPS.
IN THE REGION OF DURHAM IT'S
VERY CLEAR THAT OPG WILL PROVIDE
EQUIPMENT AND TRAINING TO
MUNICIPAL STAFF IN DURHAM.
IN AMHERSTBURG OR OTHER
TOWNSHIPS, THAT'S NOT THE CASE.
SO I THINK THE MASTER PLAN IS A
VERY GOOD STEP FORWARD, AT LEAST
WRITING DOWN THAT THE PROVINCE
IS RESPONSIBLE AND THE PROVINCE
MUST START ADDRESSING THE
CONCERNS OF SOME OF THESE VERY
EXPERIENCED FIRST RESPONDERS.

Steve says THERESA, LET ME TRY
THIS WITH YOU.
WE TALKED OFF THE TOP ABOUT THE
FACT THAT ONTARIO IS ONE OF THE
MOST NUCLEAR JURISDICTIONS IN
NORTH AMERICA AND MANY OF OUR
PLANTS ARE NEAR
DENSELY-POPULATED AREAS.
DOES THAT... HOW COMMON IS IT
FOR NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS TO BE
BUILT RELATIVELY CLOSE TO
DENSELY POPULATED AREAS IF YOU
LOOK AT THE WHOLE WORLD?

Theresa says NO,
IT'S NOT... IT'S NOT COMMON, AND
THAT'S BECAUSE THE INTERNATIONAL
ATOMIC ENERGY AGENCY HAS A
SITING GUIDE THAT SAYS NUCLEAR
POWER PLANTS SHOULDN'T BE BUILT
NEXT TO DENSELY POPULATED AREAS
AND IN FACT IT SAYS THERE SHOULD
BE PERIODIC REVIEWS DURING THE
LIFE OF THE PLANT TO MAKE SURE
THAT THE POPULATION IS NOT
BECOMING TOO DENSE AROUND THOSE
AREAS, AND IT'S SPECIFICALLY
BECAUSE OF ISSUES LIKE HOW WELL
COULD YOU EVACUATE, HOW WELL
COULD YOU PROTECT THE PUBLIC?
THE THING THAT STEPHANIE TALKED
ABOUT, DEFENCE INDEPTH, WHICH IS
AN IMPORTANT CONCEPT, AND THE
THING WE HAVE TO REMEMBER IS
THAT EMERGENCY PLANNING IS THE
LAST DEFENCE.
SOMETHING ELSE WENT WRONG ALL
THE WAY ALONG THE WAY, AND NOW
WE HAVE TO RELY ON THIS NUCLEAR
EMERGENCY PLAN TO ACTUALLY
REALLY PROTECT PEOPLE.
IF IT'S TOO POPULATED, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT...

Steve says HERE'S THE REALITY.
I THINK IT WAS PREMIER JOHN
ROBARTS WHO MADE THE DECISION
MORE THAN 50 YEARS AGO TO BUILD
NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS IN
PICKERING.
50 YEARS AGO, PICKERING WAS NOT
A DENSELY POPULATED PLACE.
IT WAS A LONG WAY AWAY FROM
POPULATION, AND SO THEY HAD
EVERY RIGHT TO ASSUME THINGS
WERE GOING TO BE FINE.
THE POPULATION HAS OBVIOUSLY
EXPANDED TO COME TO THE NUKES.
YOU CAN'T MOVE THE NUKES.

The caption changes to "tvo.org/theagenda."

Theresa says THE PROVINCE HAS BEEN MAKING
EXPLICIT DECISIONS TO PUT MORE
PEOPLE AT.
THEY HAVE THE PLACES TO GROW ACT
AND THEY'VE BEEN PUTTING PEOPLE
THERE.
WE RESPONDED TO THE HEARINGS
ABOUT BUILDING NEW NUCLEAR.
THE JOINT REVIEW PANEL SAID AT
THE TIME TO THE PROVINCE: YOU
NEED TO HAVE CONSULTATIONS WITH
THESE MUNICIPALITIES ABOUT THE
DENSITY IN THIS AREA.
THEY RAISED CONCERN ABOUT THAT.
AND I HAVEN'T SEEN ANYTHING FROM
THE PROVINCE THAT'S RECOGNIZING
THAT THEY NEED TO NOT KEEP
PUTTING MORE PEOPLE RIGHT IN THE
VICINITY OF PICKERING AND
DARLINGTON.

Steve says STEPHANIE, DO YOU
WANT TO RESPOND?
I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU DO.
YOU CAN'T MOVE THE PLANTS AT
THIS STAGE, RIGHT?

Stephanie says WE CAN'T MOVE THE PLANTS.
THE BEST THAT... LIKE I SAID, WE
OPERATE THE PLANT AS SAFELY AS
WE CAN.
WE ACTUALLY JUST RECEIVED THE
HIGHEST SAFETY RATING FROM THE
CANADIAN NUCLEAR SAFETY
COMMISSION.
WE SUBJECT OURSELVES TO AUDITS
ON A REGULAR BASIS BY, YOU KNOW,
THE REGULATOR, BY EXTERNAL
PEOPLE THAT WATCH.

Steve says I'M ONLY GOING TO
JUMP IN BECAUSE WE'RE DOWN TO
OUR LAST MINUTE AND CHANGE HERE.
HOWEVER, COMMA, OPG'S BOSS JUST
THE OTHER DAY BROUGHT THE HOUSE
DOWN ON SOME PEOPLE AT OPG
BECAUSE HE WAS NOT SATISFIED
WITH WHAT LOOKED LIKE NOT 100 percent
ATTENTION TO SAFETY, RIGHT?
HE WAS WORRIED SOMEONE WAS GOING
TO GET HURT.

Stephanie says RIGHT.
AND THAT WAS THE EXACT RIGHT
THING TO DO, YOU KNOW?
THE PROVINCE OUT AT THE
DARLINGTON REFURBISHMENT, YOU
KNOW, WE'VE GOT A LOT OF PEOPLE
WORKING THERE.
YOU BRING A LOT OF PEOPLE IN WHO
ARE USED TO WORKING AT G.M. AND,
YOU KNOW, NOT TO SAY ANYTHING
ABOUT G.M. OR, YOU KNOW, A
WELDING SHOP OR WHEREVER THEY'RE
FROM, AND NUCLEAR IS A UNIQUE
INDUSTRY.
AND, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE TO ENSURE
THAT PEOPLE FOLLOW THE RULES.
AND THAT INCLUDES ALL THE OUR
SAFETY RULES.
WE TAKE THOSE VERY SERIOUSLY.
WE DON'T WANT ANYONE HURT.
SO, YOU KNOW, WE HAD TO DO THAT.
WE HAD TO DO A COURSE
CORRECTION.
AND IT WAS SUCCESSFUL.
YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOT BACK ON TRACK.

Steve says BACK ON TRACK.

Stephanie says BACK ON TRACK.

The caption changes to "Producer: Harrison Lowman, @harrisonlowman."

Steve says OKAY.
I WANT TO THANK ALL OF YOU FOR
COMING IN TONIGHT TO TVO AND
HELPING US UNDERSTAND THIS ISSUE
SO MUCH BETTER, THERESA
McCLENAGHAN FROM CELA, DAVE
NOVOG, SHAWN-PATRICK STENSIL
FROM GREENPEACE, STEPHANIE SMITH
FROM THE PICKERING NUCLEAR
GENERATING STATION.
THANKS, EVERYBODY.

Watch: Is Ontario Prepared for a Nuclear Emergency?