Transcript: Creating a Landmine-Free World | Dec 05, 2017

Nam sits in the studio. She's in her early forties, with shoulder length curly brown hair. She's wearing glasses and a light gray blazer over a black blouse.

A caption on screen reads "Creating a landmine-free world. Nam Kiwanuka, @namshine, @theagenda."

Nam says TWENTY YEARS AGO, THE
OTTAWA TREATY WAS SIGNED.
IT AIMED TO BAN THE USE OF
ANTI-PERSONNEL LANDMINES.
CANADA PLAYED A KEY ROLE IN
GETTING GLOBAL BUY-IN.
DECADES LATER, DID IT DO WHAT
THE SIGNATORIES HAD HOPED FOR?
LET'S FIND OUT FROM:
MYROSLAVA TATARYN, INSTITUTIONAL
PARTNERSHIP MANAGER FOR
HANDICAP INTERNATIONAL CANADA;

Myroslava is in her early thirties, with long wavy brown hair. She's wearing a black shirt and a flowery yellow scarf.

Nam continues JANE COCKING, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OF
THE MINES ADVISORY GROUP;

Jane is in her late forties, with graying blond hair in a short bob. She's wearing a gray blazer and a pink shawl.

Nam continues AND PAUL HANNON, EXECUTIVE
DIRECTOR OF MINES ACTION CANADA.

Paul is in his late fifties, with wavy gray hair and a full beard. He's wearing glasses, a gray suit, white gingham shirt, and checked blue tie.

Nam continues WELCOME TO YOU ALL.
BEFORE WE GET INTO WHAT THE
OTTAWA TREATY WAS AND WHAT IT
DOES, I WANTED TO ASK A REALLY
BASIC QUESTION: WHAT IS A
LANDMINE?
JANE?

The caption changes to "Jane Cocking. Mines Advisory Group."
Then, it changes again to "An indiscriminate weapon."

Jane says A LANDMINE IS
ANY DEVICE WHICH HAS AN
EXPLOSIVE IN IT AND WHICH IS ON
OR NEAR THE GROUND BUT VERY
CRUCIALLY IS INTENDED TO BE
ACTIVATED BY THE VICTIM, AND SO
IT'S SOMETHING THAT COULD BE
STOOD ON BY A PERSON, DRIVEN
OVER BY A VEHICLE, AND THE
OTTAWA TREATY IS ABOUT THOSE
ANTIPERSONNEL MINES, THOSE
TERRIBLE DEVICES THAT ARE
DESIGNED TO DIRECTLY MAIM THE
PEOPLE WHO TREAD ON THEM.

Nam says WE HEAR A LOT ON THE
NEWS ABOUT IEDS.
WOULD THAT CLASSIFY AS A LAND MINE?

Jane says IED IS A BIT OF A COMPLICATED
TERM HERE.
THERE ARE DEVICES WHICH ARE
CALLED, REFERRED TO AS IEDS,
WHICH WORK JUST LINE A LANDMINE.
THEY ARE SOMETHING WHICH IS PUT
TOGETHER, SOMETIMES MADE OUT OF
A COOKING POT AND A BATTERY AND
SOME EXPLOSIVES.
IF IT IS INTENDED BY THE PERSON
WHO LEAVES IT THERE TO HARM OR
KILL SOMEBODY STEPPING ON IT,
THEN IT'S A LANDMINE.

Nam says AND, PAUL, PICKING UP
ON WHAT YOU SAID, WHAT ARE THESE
WEAPONS USED FOR, PRIMARILY?

The caption changes to "Paul Hannon. Mines Action Canada."

Paul says WELL, THEY
USED TO BE USED TO DEFEND AREAS
BUT THE NATURE OF WAR CHANGED IN
THE '60S AND '70S AND '80S
AND THEY BECAME WARS WITHIN
COMMUNITIES WITHIN TOWNS, AND
THEY'RE NO LONGER REALLY SEEN AS
A DEFENSIVE WEAPON, THEY'RE MORE
SEEN AS A WEAPON OF TERROR.

Nam says BECAUSE THEY CAN BE IN
THE GROUND FOR 50 YEARS?

Paul says THEY CAN BE IN THE GROUND FOR
MANY, MANY YEARS.
THERE ARE PEOPLE STILL BEING
KILLED BY CONFLICTS THAT ENDED
20 YEARS AGO.

Nam says MYROSLAVA, CAN YOU
DESCRIBE A TYPICAL CASUALTY OF
THESE WEAPONS?

The caption changes to "Myroslava Tataryn. Handicap International Canada."

Myroslava says SO SOMEBODY WALKS OR PICKS UP A
LANDMINE AND IT EXPLODES, IT
COULD KILL THEM OR THEY COULD
SURVIVE.
WHEN THEY SURVIVE, IT REALLY
DEPENDS WHETHER IT EXPLODED IN
THEIR HANDS.
IF SO, THEY'LL HAVE INJURIES TO
THE FACE, TO THE HANDS.
IF THEY STEPPED ON IT, THEN IT'S
MOST LIKELY THE LOWER LIMBS THAT
ARE AFFECTED.
AND OFTEN IT REQUIRES AMPUTATION
AFTERWARDS BECAUSE OF THE
TRAUMATIC NATURE OF THE INJURY.
AND WE SEE THAT... BECAUSE
CHILDREN ARE SMALLER, WHEN THEY
ARE INJURED BY A LANDMINE, THEN
IT AFFECTS MORE OF THEIR BODY
AND ALSO THEIR FACE BECAUSE
THEY'RE SO MUCH CLOSER TO THE
GROUND.

Nam says AND IT COULD BE
MISTAKEN FOR A TOY BECAUSE IT'S
SHINY, THE OUTSIDE OF IT?

Myroslava says IT DEPENDS ON THE LANDMINES.
SOMETIMES THEY'RE TOYS,
SOMETIMES THEY'RE HIDDEN.
SOMETIMES SOMEONE CAN WALK OVER
THEM WITHOUT KNOWING IT'S THERE
IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Nam says WHO IS AFFECTED MORE,
MEN OR WOMEN?

Myroslava says RIGHT NOW WE'RE SEEING THE
MAJORITY OF THE CASUALTIES ARE
MEN AND BOYS, BUT WHAT WE HAVE
ALSO SEEN IS THAT IN THOSE CASES
WHERE WOMEN AND GIRLS ARE
AFFECTED, BECAUSE OFTEN THEY'RE
IN SITUATIONS THAT ARE FURTHER
FROM FIRST AID OR HAVE MORE
PROBLEMATIC ACCESS TO EMERGENCY
HEALTH CARE SERVICES THAT
THEY'RE MORE LIKELY TO BE KILLED
BY THE LANDMINE THAN A MAN OR A BOY.

Nam says I'M THINKING TOO IN
SOME OF THESE COMMUNITIES THE
BOYS AND THE MEN WOULD BE THE
ONES WHO ARE WORKING AND
PROVIDING FOR THE FAMILIES TOO,
SO IT HAS A RIPPLE EFFECT?

Myroslava says DEFINITELY.

Nam says PAUL, DO THEY SERVE
ANY ADVANTAGE TO ARMIES ON THE
BATTLEFIELD?

Paul says I DON'T THINK SO.
THERE WAS A STUDY THAT THE RED
CROSS DID, IT WAS A VERY PIVOTAL
STUDY IN THE MOVEMENT TO BAN
LANDMINES, WHICH SHOWED... AND
THIS WAS ALL DONE BY MILITARY
PEOPLE WHO DID THE STUDY AND
SAID THEY WERE NEVER FOUND TO BE
A DECISIVE FACTOR IN ANY
MILITARY CAMPAIGN.
THEY WERE OBVIOUSLY USED FOR
DIFFERENT PURPOSES, BUT THEY
NEVER PLAYED A DECISIVE ROLE IN
A VICTORY.

Nam says WHY USE THEM?
WERE THEY CHEAP?

Paul says THEY WERE CHEAP.
BEFORE THEY WERE BANNED THEY
WERE PROBABLY ONE OF THE MOST
WIDELY USED WEAPONS IN THE WORLD
AND CERTAINLY THE MOST WIDELY
USED EXPLOSIVE WEAPON.

Nam says JANE, BEFORE THE
OTTAWA TREATY CAME INTO EFFECT,
WERE THERE ANY RULES THAT
GOVERNED THE USE OF LANDMINES?

The caption changes to "Road to a treaty."

Jane says NO, THERE
WEREN'T REAL RULES.
I MEAN, THEY WERE COVERED BY THE
REGULAR LAWS OF WAR, BUT
CERTAINLY, YOU KNOW, WHEN I
STARTED WORKING IN THIS FIELD,
YOU KNOW, 25, 30 YEARS AGO, THEY
WERE BEING USED
INDISCRIMINATELY.
SO, YOU KNOW, YOU COULD DRIVE
DOWN A ROAD AND NOT BE SURE IF
SOMEBODY HAD LAID SOMETHING
THERE THAT MORNING.
YOU COULD COME BACK ALONG THE
SAME ROAD IN THE EVENING AND IT
WILL BE APPALLING.
AND I THINK THE THING WE HAVEN'T
REFERRED TO IS THERE'S A VERY
PRACTICAL IMPACT THAT WE'VE BEEN
TALKING ABOUT BUT THERE'S ALSO
THAT REAL LEGACY OF FEAR THAT
THESE LANDMINES LEAVE THAT, YOU
KNOW, AS PAUL SAYS, THERE ARE
STILL LANDMINES IN THE GROUND
LAID DECADES AGO, AND THERE ARE
MOTHERS AND THERE ARE CHILDREN
WHO DON'T KNOW IF, WHEN THEY
WALK TO SCHOOL OR THEY GO TO A
WELL, WHETHER OR NOT THEY'RE
GOING TO STEP ON THEM.
AND SO IT'S THAT ALL-PERVASIVE
FEAR THAT IS IN YOUR LIFE DAY
IN, DAY OUT, AND THAT'S ALMOST
IMPOSSIBLE FOR US TO IMAGINE, I THINK.

Nam says I'M ASSUMING THERE
WASN'T ANY LAW WHERE YOU HAD TO
TAKE THE MINES OUT AFTER A WAR ENDED?

Jane says NO, NO, NO.
AND THAT'S THE THING.
THEY STAY FOREVER, YOU KNOW?
THIS IS THE WEAPON THAT CARRIES
ON BEING A WEAPON AFTER THE WAR
IS FINISHED.

Nam says AND SO BEFORE THE
OTTAWA TREATY, WAS THERE ANY
ASSISTANCE OFFERED TO VICTIMS OF LANDMINES?

Myroslava says WELL,
WHAT IS NEEDED FIRST OF ALL IS
GOOD MEDICAL CARE TO STABILIZE
THEM AFTER THEIR INJURIES, AND
FURTHERMORE, ACCESS TO
REHABILITATION, SIMILAR TO
PEOPLE WITH OTHER KINDS OF
TRAUMATIC INJURIES.
SO IT REALLY DEPENDS ON WHERE
THAT OCCURS AND WHAT ACCESS TO
SERVICES THOSE PEOPLE WOULD HAVE
PREVIOUS... WHAT SERVICES ARE
AVAILABLE WITHIN THAT CONTEXT.
SO IF IT'S HAPPENING IN A
WEALTHY COUNTRY WITH PUBLIC
HEALTH SERVICES, THEN THOSE
VICTIMS WOULD HAVE A MUCH BETTER
CHANCE OF NOT ONLY SURVIVAL BUT
BEING ABLE TO REGAIN FUNCTION
AND REINTEGRATE THEMSELVES INTO
THEIR COMMUNITY AND CARRY OUT
THE NECESSARY ACTIVITIES OF
DAILY LIFE.
BUT IF IT HAPPENS IN A POOR
INCOME COUNTRY, IN A RURAL AREA,
WHERE EVEN HAVING TRANSPORTATION
TO THE ONE MAJOR CENTRE THAT
MIGHT HAVE A HOSPITAL THAT'S
EQUIPPED TO AMPUTATE SOMEBODY
PROPERLY OR TO PROVIDE A
PROSTHETIC DEVICE, THEN THOSE
SAME INEQUALITIES AND
MARGINALIZATIONS WILL BE THERE
FOR THOSE LANDMINE VICTIMS.
AND SO OFTEN WE'RE SEEING THAT
THE COUNTRIES MOST AFFECTED BY
LANDMINES ARE THOSE WHERE LOW
INCOME COUNTRIES THAT DO NOT
HAVE GOOD ACCESS TO MEDICAL
SERVICES.
SO THAT'S A CRUCIAL PART OF THE
TREATY, IS TRYING TO MAKE SURE
THAT IN THOSE PLACES WHERE
LANDMINES... WHERE COMMUNITIES
ARE AT RISK OF LANDMINE
INJURIES, THAT WE MAKE SURE THAT
SERVICES ARE AVAILABLE IN CASE
OF ACCIDENTS.

Nam says AND SO BEFORE THE
TREATY, PAUL, I WANTED TO GET A
SENSE, WAS THERE ANY DESIRE TO
BAN LANDMINES?

The caption changes to "Paul Hannon, @PCHannon."

Paul says CERTAINLY JANE
AND I BOTH COME FROM THE
DEVELOPMENT COMMUNITY, WE ARE
BOTH EX... OXFAM PEOPLE AND WE
ALWAYS TRIED TO GET ARMIES TO DO
THINGS PROPERLY, PICK UP THE
LANDMINES THEY MADE, MARK THE
COMMUNITIES.
NOBODY DID THAT.
THERE WERE EFFORTS THAT WENT
FROM TRYING TO CONVINCE ARMIES
TO DO BEST PRACTICES TO
SELF-REGULATE, TO TRY AND
REGULATE, BUT NONE OF THOSE
REALLY EVER STOOD AND THEY
DIDN'T REALLY STICK AND IT WAS
ONLY UNTIL THE ICBL WAS FORMED,
THE INTERNATIONAL CAMPAIGN TO
BAN LANDMINES, THAT CALLED FOR A
GLOBAL BAN, THAT THINGS CHANGED.
THAT'S WHEN PEOPLE STARTED
THINKING, MAYBE THERE IS A
SOLUTION TO THIS...

The caption changes to "Connect with us: @theagenda, TVO.org, Facebook, YouTube, Periscope, Instagram."

Nam says WHY DO YOU THINK THAT
CHANGED THINGS?

Paul says I THINK BECAUSE THE
MECHANISMS THAT JANE WAS TALKING
ABOUT, THE RULES OF WAR, THEY'RE
VERY DIFFICULT TO CHANGE.
IT'S ALL CONSENSUS-BASED IN THE
U.N., SO ONE COUNTRY CAN BLOCK.
CONSENSUS-BASED MEANS ONE
COUNTRY CAN VETO ANYTHING.
SO YOU CAN GET IT DOWN TO THE
MOST COMMON DENOMINATOR YOU GET
AN AGREEMENT ON SO THAT MEANS
YOU END UP WITH A WEAK
AGREEMENT.
THE CONVENTION ON PROTOCOL HAS
HAD NO IMPACT WHATSOEVER AND
WHEN CAMPAIGNERS AND GOVERNMENTS
THAT WERE INTERESTED IN SEEING
CHANGE TRIED TO STRENGTHEN THAT,
IT FAILED.
AND THAT'S WHEN THEY DECIDED AND
CANADA LED THE EFFORT TO GO
OUTSIDE THE U.N. AND ACTUALLY
CALLED FOR A BAN.
AND I THINK THE BAN CRYSTALLIZED
EVERYONE'S THINKING THAT THERE
ACTUALLY IS A SOLUTION TO THIS
AND THE SOLUTION IS WE NEVER USE
THIS WEAPON AGAIN AND WE HELP
THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN
VICTIMIZED AND WE GET THE MINES
OUT OF THE GROUND.

Nam says I SHOULD MENTION, I
DON'T KNOW IF THIS HAS EVER
HAPPENED ON THE SHOW BEFORE, I
COULD BE WRONG, BUT THESE THREE
ORGANIZATIONS THAT YOU REPRESENT
WERE RECIPIENTS OF THE NOBEL
PEACE PRIZE IN 1997.
CAN WE TALK ABOUT THAT A LITTLE
BIT, PLEASE?
JANE?

The caption changes to "Jane Cocking, @JaneCockingMAG."

Jane says WELL, OF
COURSE, IT WAS A MOMENT OF
IMMENSE PRIDE TO MAG, TO MY
ORGANIZATION AND TO THE
ORGANIZATIONS REPRESENTED AROUND
THE TABLE HERE, WHO WERE ALL
PART OF THE INTERNATIONAL
CAMPAIGN TO BAN LANDMINES.
BUT SETTING ASIDE OUR OWN
ORGANIZATIONAL PRIDE, WHAT WAS
REALLY IMPORTANT WAS THAT THIS
REALLY WAS AN AWARD FOR ALL
THOSE PEOPLE WHO HAD SAID, IT IS
POSSIBLE TO CHANGE THE WORLD.
IT IS POSSIBLE TO SAY, THIS IS
SOMETHING WHICH IS ETHICALLY AND
MORALLY WRONG, AND WE CAN PUT
THAT ETHICS AND THAT MORAL
STANCE TOGETHER INTO SOMETHING
WHICH IS INTENSELY PRACTICAL,
AND I THINK IT ALSO RECOGNIZED
THE GAME-CHANGING IMPACT THAT
HAVING A GROUP OF ORGANIZATIONS
LIKE OURS COME TOGETHER WITH
LIKE-MINDED GOVERNMENTS UNDER
THE LEADERSHIP OF THE CANADIAN
GOVERNMENT, WHICH WAS AMAZING,
WE REALLY CAN DO SOMETHING WHICH
IS SO MUCH GREATER THAN WE'D BE
ABLE TO DO ON OUR OWN, AND
THAT'S WHAT THE NOBEL PEACE
PRIZE MARKED AS MUCH AS
ANYTHING.

The caption changes to "Subscribe to The Agenda Podcasts: tvo.org/theagenda."

Nam says SO WHAT WAS CANADA'S ROLE IN THIS?

Paul says CANADA PLAYED
A REALLY STRONG ROLE, BOTH
CANADIANS AND THEIR GOVERNMENT.
WE WOULDN'T BE WHERE WE ARE NOW
AND WE WOULDN'T BE HAVING A 20TH
ANNIVERSARY IF LLOYD AXWORTHY,
THE FOREIGN AFFAIRS MINISTER,
CHALLENGED THE TREATY AND CAME
BACK TO OTTAWA AND SIGNED IT,
AND HE CHALLENGED TO DO IT IN A
YEAR, WHICH WAS UNHEARD OF
TREATIES IN THOSE DAYS COULD
TAKE FIVE OR TEN YEARS TO
NEGOTIATE.
HE CHALLENGED THEM AND SET A
DEADLINE AND HE SHOCKED EVERYONE
WHEN HE MADE THAT CHALLENGE.
I WAS AT THE CONFERENCE WHEN HE
DID THAT.
THE NGOS WERE UP ON THEIR FEET
APPLAUDING AND THE DIPLOMATS,
YOU COULD SEE THEIR JAWS WERE
ALMOST ON THE TABLE.
THEY WERE SO SHOCKED.
WHEN YOU HAVE DIPLOMATIC
CONFERENCES YOU KNOW WHAT'S
GOING TO HAPPEN BEFORE YOU GO
IN.
THEY ALMOST ALWAYS HAVE
AGREEMENT AHEAD OF TIME.
AND HE SURPRISED EVERYONE.
AND THEN THEY FOLLOWED IT UP.
IT WASN'T JUST THAT HE MADE THE
CALL.
CANADA PUT A WHOLE LOT OF
DIPLOMATIC EFFORT INTO THIS.
THEY SUPPORTED THE RED CROSS AND
THE U.N. TO HAVE CONFERENCES.
THEY BROUGHT IN NGOS FROM
AROUND THE WORLD.
WE TRAVELLED ALL OVER THE WORLD,
CONVINCING GOVERNMENTS ONE AT A
TIME TO COME TO OTTAWA ON
DECEMBER 3 AND 4 IN 1997, 122 OF
THEM SHOWED UP IN OTTAWA TO SIGN
THE TREATY.

Nam says WAS THIS AN UNUSUAL
THING FOR NGOS TO GET AN
INTERNATIONAL TREATY PASSED?

Paul says YEAH.
IT WAS LIKE THE FIRST TIME WE
WERE EVER ABLE TO BE IN THE
ROOM, PART OF THE NEGOTIATION,
ALMOST LIKE EQUALS.
WE WERE ALWAYS AT THE BACK AND
WE'RE STILL ALWAYS AT THE BACK.
BUT WE ARE NOW... IT'S PRETTY
COMMON FOR US TO BE IN THE ROOM.
IT HAPPENED ON THE CONVENTION OF
CLUSTER MUNITIONS, ON THE ARMS
TRADE TREATY, THE RECENT NUCLEAR
WEAPONS PROHIBITION TREATY,
WHICH OUR COLLEAGUES ARE GETTING
THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE FOR THIS
YEAR.
IT'S NORMAL FOR NGOS TO DRIVE
THE PROCESS AND PARTNER WITH
GOVERNMENTS AND INTERNATIONAL
ORGANIZATIONS TO MAKE IT WORK.

Jane says PERHAPS I
COULD ADD TO THAT, WHICH I
COMPLETELY AGREE WITH WHAT PAUL
SAID.
BUT I THINK WHAT BRINGING THE
NGO VOICE TO THE TABLE DID WAS
ALSO BRING TO THE TABLE THE
PEOPLE WHO ARE ON THE GROUND DAY
IN, DAY OUT, YOU KNOW, THE
ORGANIZATION I REPRESENT HERE,
WE HAVE PEOPLE ON THE GROUND
CLEARING LANDMINES, WORKING WITH
COMMUNITIES EVERY DAY, AND
BRINGING THAT KNOWLEDGE AND THAT
CREDIBILITY TO THAT HIGH-LEVEL
DIPLOMATIC DEBATE WAS VERY NEW
AT THAT TIME.
AND THROUGH THAT, WE WERE ALSO
ABLE TO BRING THE VOICE OF THOSE
PEOPLE WHO WERE LIVING DAY IN,
DAY OUT WITH THIS WEAPON.
SO I THINK THAT WAS ALSO A
DIFFERENT FLAVOUR OF
INTERNATIONAL DISCUSSION, WHICH
WE STILL HAVE, AS PAUL SAYS, IN
THINGS LIKE THE RECENT NUCLEAR
TREATY THIS YEAR.

Nam says AND LOOKING BACK 20
YEARS WITH THE OTTAWA TREATY, IT
MUST BE SOMETHING FOR YOUR
ORGANIZATION, MYROSLAVA.
WHAT DID THEY PLAY IN BRINGING
THE TREATY TO THE TABLE?

The caption changes to "Myroslava Tataryn, @MyroTataryn."

Myroslava says IT WAS A TEAM EFFORT.
EACH NGO HAS ITS ROLE TO PLAY
AND A COMPLEMENTARY.
ONE OF THE COMPONENTS OF THE
TREATY THAT WE SEE AS CRUCIAL UP
UNTIL TODAY IS THE VOICES AND
THE INVOLVEMENT OF LANDMINE
SURVIVORS, NOT JUST THE NGOS,
BUT THE VOICES OF SURVIVORS AND
OTHER PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
AND THEIR CARE-GIVERS AND
FAMILIES AND THE EFFECTS ON THE
COMMUNITIES THEMSELVES.
NOT JUST TO SPEAK OUT AGAINST IT
BUT ALSO TO WORK WITH THEIR
GOVERNMENTS AND WITHIN THEIR
COMMUNITIES ON POLICIES AND ON
RECONSTRUCTION PLANS AND THAT
THE CRUCIAL PLACE IS A VOICE OF
SURVIVORS AND AFFECTED
COMMUNITIES WAS EMBEDDED INTO
THE TREATY AND THAT ALLOWS FOR
THAT VOICE AND THAT INVOLVEMENT
TO CONTINUE UP UNTIL THIS DAY.

Nam says I'M INTERESTED TO
KNOW, SO WHAT WAS IN THE TREATY, PAUL?

The caption changes to "The Ottawa Treaty."

Paul says WELL, THE
TREATY IS BOTH... IT'S AN
INTERESTING MIX.
IT'S A DISARMAMENT TREATY AND A
HUMANITARIAN TREATY.
YOU BAN THE USE OF THE WEAPON,
PRODUCTION, TRADE, TRANSFER AND
YOU ELIMINATE THE STOCKPILES.
THE HUMANITARIAN SIDE IS YOU
CLEAR THE LAND, DE-MINING, YOU
HELP SURVIVORS...

Nam says IN WHAT WAY DO YOU
HELP SURVIVORS?

Paul says COUNTRIES IN A POSITION TO DO
SO ARE OBLIGATED TO PROVIDE
ASSISTANCE TO COUNTRIES THAT
NEED ASSISTANCE AND WHAT WE'RE
WORKING ON IS GETTING THEM TO
UNDERSTAND THAT THEY HAVE
OBLIGATIONS TO PUT PLANS IN
PLACE, STUDY WHAT THE BEST
PRACTICES ARE AND SEE HOW THEY
CAN GET TO THE BEST PRACTICES,
AND IT'S REALLY EVOLVED INTO A
RIGHTS-BASED APPROACH TO VICTIM
ASSISTANCE.
SO THESE PEOPLE HAVE A RIGHT TO
A LIVELIHOOD AND THEY HAVE
RIGHTS THAT NEED TO BE UPHELD.

Jane says YES, THE VICTIMS...

Myroslava says THE
VICTIMS ASSISTANCE STARTS WITH
THE INITIAL FIRST AID TO THE
VICTIM.
ONCE THEY'RE STABILIZED AND OUT
OF THE HOSPITAL, THEY NEED
OCCUPATIONAL THERAPY, ASSISTIVE
DEVICES, IF SOMEONE HAS BEEN
AMPUTATED THAT MEANS PROSTHETICS
SO THEY CAN LEARN TO WALK AGAIN,
THEY CAN, AGAIN, CARRY OUT A
LIVELIHOOD.
WE LABEL THAT AS SOCIAL
INCLUSION TO PARTICIPATE IN
THEIR COMMUNITIES, ECONOMIC
INCLUSION, WHETHER THAT MEANS
GOING BACK INTO FORMAL LABOUR OR
INFORMAL LABOUR, STARTING UP
THEIR OWN BUSINESS, AND THEN
ALSO EMPOWERING THOSE PEOPLE TO
BE ADVOCATES FOR THEIR OWN NEEDS
AND THEIR OWN RIGHTS.
FOR CHILDREN, TO MAKE SURE THAT
THEY CAN GET BACK INTO SCHOOL.
AND THEY MAY NOT BE ABLE TO GO
BACK TO SCHOOL BECAUSE THEIR
FAMILIES ARE SAYING, OH, THEY'RE
INJURED, THEY HAVE A DISABILITY,
NOW THERE'S NO POINT IN SENDING
THEM TO SCHOOL.
OR MAYBE THE FAMILY WANTS TO,
BUT WITHOUT A WHEELCHAIR OR
WITHOUT A PROSTHETIC, THEN THEY
CAN'T GET THERE PARTICULARLY IN
RURAL COMMUNITIES, THERE MAY NOT
BE A BUS SYSTEM, SO THEY NEED TO
BE ABLE TO GET FROM POINT A TO
POINT B.
AND ANOTHER THING THAT WAS
CRUCIAL TO THE TREATY IS, AS I
MENTIONED BEFORE, MANY OF THE
PLACES WHERE LANDMINES ARE
WREAKING HAVOC ARE PLACES WHERE
THERE ARE... ALREADY IN PLACE,
SCHOOLS ARE NOT ACCESSIBLE, WORK
PLACES ARE NOT ACCESSIBLE,
TRANSPORTATION IS NOT ACCESSIBLE
AND THOSE INITIAL REHABILITATION
SERVICES MAY NOT EVEN BE THERE,
THEY MAY NOT BE RECOGNIZED, THEY
MAY NOT BE TRAINING PROSTHETICS
OR ORTHOTICS TECHNICIANS.
AND IN THE TREATY, THERE IS
EMBEDDED IN THE PRINCIPLE OF
NON-DISCRIMINATION.
SO WHEN THE SERVICES ARE PUT IN
PLACE FOR THE LANDMINE
SURVIVORS, THEY NEED TO BE
ACCESSIBLE TO THE BROADER
COMMUNITY.
IF SOMEONE IS INJURED,
REGARDLESS OF THE CAUSE OF THE
INJURY, THEN THEY WILL HAVE
ACCESS TO THOSE SAME
REHABILITATION SERVICES AND
THAT'S CRUCIAL FOR TRANSFORMING
THE IMAGE OF INJURED PERSONS
WITHIN THEIR COMMUNITIES.

Nam says NOW, THERE ARE A LOT
OF COUNTRIES WHO HAVEN'T SIGNED
ONTO IT, 30 COUNTRIES, INCLUDING
SOME OF THE BIGGEST, RUSSIA,
U.S., AND CHINA.
WHY IS THAT?

Jane says I THINK THEY
ALL HAVE DIFFERENT REASONS.
THERE IS NO QUESTION, WE WOULD
STRONGLY ENCOURAGE ALL COUNTRIES
TO SIGN UP.
IN THE CASE OF THE U.S., THEY
HAVEN'T SIGNED BUT THEY'VE BEEN
THE LARGEST DONOR TO DE-MINING
ACTIVITIES OVER TIME.
HOWEVER, I THINK WHAT'S REALLY
IMPORTANT TO SAY IS, YES, YOU'RE
RIGHT, THERE ARE COUNTRIES WHO
HAVE NOT SIGNED UP.
BUT 162 HAVE.
AND THAT IS THE MOST
EXTRAORDINARY SUCCESS AND IT
MAKES THE OTTAWA TREATY ONE OF
THE MOST, IF NOT THE MOST,
SUCCESSFUL PIECE OF
INTERNATIONAL LEGISLATION THAT
WE'VE EVER SEEN.

Nam says I SAID 30 COUNTRIES
BUT IT'S JUST OVER 30 COUNTRIES.
AND I WAS WONDERING, SOME OF
THESE COUNTRIES WHO HAVEN'T
SIGNED ON TO THE TREATY, I
WONDER IF THERE'S A FEAR THAT IF
THEY DO GET RID OF LANDMINES,
THAT MEANS THAT OTHER WEAPONS
THAT THEY USE, OTHER
CONTROVERSIAL WEAPONS THAT THEY
USE, LIKE DRONES, MIGHT BECOME
THREATENED.
DO YOU THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE
REASONS?

Paul says I DON'T THINK SO.
I THINK THOSE THAT HAVE THE
ABILITY TO HAVE DRONES AND OTHER
WEAPONS LIKE THAT, MODERN
WEAPONS, THEY HAVE THE CAPACITY
TO DO THAT ANYWAYS, AND THEY'RE
NOT USING LANDMINES.
LIKE, THE U.S. HASN'T USED
LANDMINES ALMOST SINCE THE
TREATY CAME INTO EFFECT.

Nam says BUT THE U.S., WE
SHOULD SAY, HAS ACTUALLY PLAYED
A KEY ROLE IN DISARMING, RIGHT?

Paul says YES.
AND THEY'RE CERTAINLY, AS JANE
SAID, THEY'RE THE LEADING
DONOR... PARTICULARLY IN VICTIM
ASSISTANCE AND CLEARANCE,
DE-MINING.
SO IF THEY ACTUALLY TOOK THE
LEGAL STEP TO JOIN, THEY WOULD
PROBABLY BE THE BEST PARTY, BUT
THEY WON'T MAKE THAT POLITICAL
DECISION.
EACH COUNTRY, HAS JANE SAID, HAS
THEIR OWN REASONS.
A LOT OF COUNTRIES LIKE LAOS AND
VIETNAM HAVEN'T JOINED YET, THEY
CAN DO SO.
SOME FEEL THEY MAY NOT BE ABLE
TO MEET THEIR OBLIGATION TO
CLEAR LAND WITHIN THE TEN-YEAR
TIME LINE BECAUSE THEY'RE SO
HEAVILY AFFECTED.

Nam says THEIR GOAL IS 2025.

Paul says THAT'S A PRAGMATIC GOAL WE'VE
SET AND THE STATES HAVE SET.
THAT'S FOR COUNTRIES ALREADY IN
THE TREATY NOW.
IF THEY JOINED, THEY WOULD BE
ABLE TO...

Nam says THEY WOULD HAVE MORE TIME.

Paul says THEY WOULD HAVE MORE TIME AND
EVERYBODY RECOGNIZES THAT.
THEY HAVE NOT YET FIGURED THAT
OUT POLITICALLY THEMSELVES.
WE WOULD CERTAINLY WELCOME
COUNTRIES LIKE THAT INTO THE
TREATY AND THE 35 THAT ARE STILL
OUTSIDE AND WE ARE GOING TO GO
AFTER ALL 35 UNTIL THEY JOIN SO...

Nam says ARE THERE ANY
COUNTRIES THAT HAVE GOTTEN
COMPLETELY LANDMINE-FREE?

Jane says OH, ABSOLUTELY.
IN THE COURSE OF THE LAST 20
YEARS, NEARLY 30 COUNTRIES AND
TERRITORIES HAVE BEEN DECLARED
FREE OF THE IMPACT OF LANDMINES.
AND THERE ARE SOME REAL, YOU
KNOW, KEY SUCCESSES IN THAT.
YOU KNOW, I THINK PARTICULARLY
OF MOZAMBIQUE.
WHEN I WORKED THERE IN THE
1990S, YOU KNOW, LANDMINES
WERE A FACT OF LIFE FOR
THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE.
AND NOW, YOU KNOW, MOZAMBIQUE IS
FREE OF THE IMPACT OF LANDMINES.
IT'S AN EXTRAORDINARY
ACHIEVEMENT.
ABSOLUTELY AMAZING.

Paul says WHEN THE
TREATY CAME INTO EFFECT, PEOPLE
IN MOZAMBIQUE AND OTHERS SAID IT
WOULD TAKE 100 YEARS TO CLEAR
THE MINES, IT WAS SUCH A HEAVILY
AFFECTED COUNTRY.
AND THEY'RE NOW LANDMINE-FREE.

Nam says DO YOU THINK THE
TREATY HAS BEEN EFFECTIVE?

Paul says IT'S HAD A GREAT EFFECT.
IT CONCENTRATED DONORS' MINDS,
THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENTS, THEY
TAKE MORE ON THE ISSUE.
THE COUNTRIES WHERE THEY'VE
ALLOWED ORGANIZATIONS LIKE
JANE'S AND HANDICAP
INTERNATIONAL AND OTHER
HUMANITARIAN MINE ACTION
ORGANIZATIONS, THEY CLEAR THE
MINES MUCH FASTER THAN IF THEY
TRIED TO DO IT THEMSELVES
THROUGH THEIR OWN MILITARY.

Nam says WE HAVE A BOARD HERE
WITH THE LIST OF THE TOP 10
DONORS TO MINE ACTION FOR THE
YEAR 2015.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "Money for mine action. 2015 in millions."

Nam reads data from the slate and says
AS YOU CAN SEE, THE UNITED
STATES IS WELL ABOVE EVERYONE
ELSE WITH ALMOST 120 MILLION dollars IN 2015.
THE U.S. CONTRIBUTES THE MOST,
EVEN THOUGH IT'S NOT A
SIGNATORY.
WHY IS THAT, PAUL?

The caption changes to "20 years later."

Paul says WELL, THERE'S
A NUMBER OF REASONS, ONE OF
WHICH SANDRA PATRICK LEAHY HAS
BEEN A GREAT CHAMPION, SANDRA
FROM VERMONT, WHICH I ALWAYS
DESCRIBE AS CANADA'S 11TH
PROVINCE.
HE HAS BEEN A GREAT CHAMPION.
I THINK THEY ALSO UNDERSTAND
THAT THROUGH U.S. AID AND OTHER
MECHANISMS THAT LANDMINES ARE A
LETHAL BARRIER TO DEVELOPMENT.
IF WE WANT THESE COUNTRIES AND
THEIR CITIZENS TO BE ABLE TO
REACH THEIR FULL POTENTIAL, WE
NEED TO REMOVE THOSE LETHAL
BARRIERS.
THOSE THAT HAVE BEEN VICTIMIZED
NEED TO HAVE THE ABILITY TO
REGAIN THEIR LIVELIHOODS.
I THINK THE U.S. AS A GOVERNMENT
HAS UNDERSTOOD THAT PART OVER 20
YEARS NOW AND THROUGH EVERY
ADMINISTRATION AND THAT'S WHAT
WE NEED.
IT'S THAT KIND OF CONSISTENCY IN
THAT LEADERSHIP...

Nam says WE'VE GOT 30 SECONDS.
I WANT TO SNEAK IN ONE MORE
QUESTION FOR YOU, PAUL.
TO WHAT EXTENT HAS THE TREATY
RISEN TO THE ACTORS OF NON-STATE
ACTORS, LIKE ISIS?

Paul says COUNTRIES
BELONGING TO THE TREATY CONDEMN
ALL USE.
WE ENGAGE WITH NON-STATE ACTORS
WHO HAVE LEGITIMATE POLITICAL
GOALS AND INFORM THEM THAT THEY
SHOULD NOT BE USING THESE
WEAPONS EITHER AND THEIR OWN
PEOPLE WHO ARE KILLED AND
INJURED AND WE HAVE CLEARANCE
ORGANIZATIONS GO IN, LIKE JANE,
IN THESE EMERGENCY SITUATIONS
AND CLEAR THE CONTAMINATION AND
WE HAVE ORGANIZATIONS LIKE H.I.
WHO GO IN AND HELP THE PEOPLE
WHO HAVE BEEN VICTIMIZED BY THEM.

The caption changes to "Producer: Colin Ellis, @ColinEllis81."

Nam says PAUL, JANE, AND
MYROSLAVA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR
BEING HERE AS WE ACKNOWLEDGE THE
20TH ANNIVERSARY OF THE OTTAWA
TREATY. THANK YOU FOR ALL THE
WORK THAT YOU DO.

All the guests say THANK YOU.

Watch: Creating a Landmine-Free World