Transcript: Wider Dialogues on Domestic Abuse | Nov 23, 2017

Nam sits in the studio. She's in her early forties, with shoulder length curly brown hair. She's wearing glasses, a black blazer over a pink shirt, and a green beaded necklace.

A caption on screen reads "Wider dialogues on domestic abuse. Nam Kiwanuka, @namshine, @theagenda."

Nam says DOMESTIC ABUSE REMAINS
ONE OF THE MOST COMMON FORMS OF
VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN.
IT CUTS ACROSS RACE, CLASS AND
ETHNICITY AND CAN HAPPEN IN ANY
KIND OF INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP.
THIS SATURDAY AT 9PM, TVO
PRESENTS THE WORLD BROADCAST
PREMIERE OF THE
MUCH-TALKED-ABOUT DOCUMENTARY,
"A BETTER MAN," WHICH AIMS
TO BRING MEN INTO THIS
CONVERSATION IN A NEW WAY.
AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE ALSO
PICKING UP ON.
TO DO THAT, CAN WE WELCOME:
ON THE LINE IN OTTAWA, ONTARIO:
TOD AUGUSTA-SCOTT, EXECUTIVE
DIRECTOR OF THE BRIDGES
INSTITUTE, A DOMESTIC VIOLENCE
THERAPY CENTRE AND THE THERAPIST
IN, "A BETTER MAN."

Todd is in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short blond hair. He's wearing glasses, a gray suit, and a blue shirt.

Nam continues AND IN OUR STUDIO:
CHRISTINE KLECKNER, PRODUCER OF
"A BETTER MAN";

Christine is in her forties, with chin-length blond hair. She's wearing a burgundy blouse.

Nam continues AND JEFF PERERA, FOUNDER AND
SPEAKER AT HIGHER UNLEARNING, AN
ORGANIZATION THAT FOCUSES ON MEN
AND MASCULINITY.

Jeff is in his late thirties, shaven-headed, with a full beard. He's wearing glasses, a blue shirt, and a black sweater vest.

Nam continues WELCOME TO YOU ALL.
A VERY DIFFICULT ISSUE TO TALK
ABOUT. IT'S VERY IMPORTANT.
BEFORE WE START OUR
CONVERSATION, LET'S TAKE A LOOK
AT A CLIP OF THE FILM, AND
THIS IS WHEN ATTIYA AND STEVE
MEET FOR THE FIRST TIME:

A clip plays on screen with the caption "A better man. 9 PM Saturday and streaming at tvo.org/abetterman."
In the clip, a young man and woman sit at a table inside a house and talk holding coffee cups.

She says NOW, I REMEMBER WITHIN THE
FIRST COUPLE WEEKS, RIGHT, I CAN
REMEMBER THE FIRST TIME ANY
ABUSE HAPPENED.
IT HAPPENED QUICKLY.
DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?

He says NO.

She says OKAY.
DO YOU REMEMBER THE FIRST TIME
BEING PHYSICALLY ABUSIVE?

He says NO.

She says OKAY.
MAY I ASK YOU, HAVE YOU EVER
BEEN PHYSICALLY ABUSIVE TO
ANYONE BEFORE ME?

He says NO. YOU WERE MY FIRST REAL
GIRLFRIEND.

The clip ends.

The caption changes to "Confronting the abused."

Nam says HOW DID ATTIYA MEETING
WITH HER ABUSIVE EX-BOYFRIEND
AND ENTERING THERAPY WITH HIM
BECOME A FILM?
THIS IS AFTER 20 YEARS.

The caption changes to "CHRISTINE KLECKNER. Producer, 'A better man.'"

Christine says THAT'S RIGHT.
IT'S AFTER 20 YEARS.
THANK YOU.
YEAH, ATTIYA LEFT... ESCAPED HER
PARTNER OVER 20 YEARS AGO NOW.
SHE ALWAYS KNEW SHE WANTED TO
FIND A WAY TO TELL HER STORY,
AND OVER THE YEARS, SHE REALLY
TOOK TIME WITH THAT.
HER CAREER HAPPENED, HER LIFE
HAPPENED.
SHE REALLY HAS A WONDERFUL LIFE.
BUT SHE RAN INTO STEVE IN
TORONTO AND THEY RAN INTO EACH
OTHER A FEW TIMES AND SHE
REALIZED THAT SHE WANTED TO
SPEAK WITH HIM AND SHE FELT SAFE
ENOUGH TO SPEAK WITH HIM.
AND SHE ASKED HIM TO SIT DOWN
WITH HER IN A COFFEE SHOP AND
TALK TO HER ABOUT THIS, AND HE
AGREED TO, WITH A LOT OF
CONSIDERATION.
AGAIN, SHE HAD A LOT OF SUPPORT.
SHE FELT VERY SAFE DOING IT.
AND SHE FILMED THEIR FIRST
CONVERSATION IN THE COFFEE SHOP.
AND AFTER SHE DID THAT, SHE
REALIZED THAT SHE WANTED TO TAKE
IT FURTHER.
AND I'M LUCKY ENOUGH TO HAVE
BEEN INTRODUCED TO HER BY OUR
EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, SARAH
POLLEY.
ATTIYA WAS LOOKING FOR A
PRODUCER.
I KNEW SARAH FROM "STORIES WE
TELL," WHICH I HAD WORKED ON
WITH HER.
AND WE MET AND I SAW THE FOOTAGE
AND I KNEW RIGHT AWAY IT WAS A
REALLY IMPORTANT STORY, AND WE
TRUSTED EACH OTHER TO FIGURE OUT
HOW TO TELL HER STORY.
SO WE WORKED REALLY HARD
TOGETHER TO MOVE FORWARD IN
MAKING THE FILM.

Nam says IT'S REALLY... THE
FILM IS REALLY INTENSE.
THERE'S A LOT OF SILENCE IN IT.
I'M JUST WONDERING, DID YOU HAVE
ANY RESISTANCE IN GETTING IT MADE?

The caption changes to "A better man. 9 PM Saturday. Also streaming on tvo.org/abetterman."

Christine says I DON'T KNOW IF WE HAD
RESISTANCE.
I ACTUALLY THINK... I REMEMBER
PITCHING THIS IDEA TO JANE
JANKOVIC HERE AT TVO... WE'RE SO
LUCKY TO HAVE MET JANE.

Nam says JANE'S FANTASTIC.

Christine says SHE'S AMAZING.
SHE UNDERSTOOD IT RIGHT AWAY.
THAT WAS REALLY REASSURING FOR US.
SHE UNDERSTOOD WHY THIS WAS
IMPORTANT DESPITE HOW HARD IT
IS, AND THAT THIS IS SOMETHING
WE HAVEN'T SEEN AND THAT THIS IS
A VERSION OF THIS TOPIC THAT WE
HAVE NOT SEEN ON CAMERA.
AND HAVING THAT TRUST, YOU KNOW,
AND HAVING THAT TRUST ALSO FROM
THE NATIONAL FILM BOARD, HAVING
THOSE PEOPLE BEHIND US, THOSE
INSTITUTIONS, UNDERSTANDING WHY
THIS STORY NEEDED TO BE TOLD
DESPITE THE CHALLENGES, REALLY
GAVE US A LOT OF THE COURAGE
THAT IT TOOK TO KEEP MOVING
FORWARD AND TO BELIEVE IN THE STORY.
SO IT WAS CHALLENGING.
AND A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T...
DIDN'T ALWAYS TRUST IT AND STILL
MIGHT NOT.
IT'S A NEW... IT'S A NEW STORY
THAT WE HAVEN'T SEEN ABOUT THIS
TOPIC IN A FILM.
IT WAS CHALLENGING.
BUT WE FELT VERY CONFIDENT ABOUT
THE CHOICES WE'VE MADE.

Nam says I FIND IT INTERESTING
YOU SAID SOME PEOPLE MIGHT NOT
TRUST IT.
I WANT TO BRING TOD INTO THE
CONVERSATION.
TOD, CAN YOU MAYBE EXPAND ON
THAT, WHY SOME PEOPLE MIGHT NOT
TRUST THE FILM?

The caption changes to "TOD AUGUSTA-SCOTT. Bridges Institute."

Todd says WELL, OFTEN THESE MEN PRESENT
INITIALLY WITH PRETTY
IRRESPONSIBLE STORIES ABOUT
MINIMIZING THE SERIOUSNESS OF
THE ABUSE OR BLAMING OTHER
PEOPLE FOR THEIR CHOICES OR
DENYING IT OUTRIGHT ALTOGETHER.
SO OFTEN THAT ENDS UP BEING THE
FACE OF MEN WHO USE VIOLENCE IN
THEIR RELATIONSHIPS.
AND SO PART OF MY WORK WITH MEN
AS A COUNSELLOR IS TO SEE WHAT
OTHER STORIES THE MEN COULD TELL
ABOUT HOW THEY'D PREFER TO BE,
AND THEY OFTEN TALK ABOUT
STORIES ABOUT PREFERRING TO BE
RESPECTFUL AND KIND AND CARING
AND OFTEN PEOPLE DON'T HAVE
ACCESS TO THOSE STORIES, AND IF
THEY'VE BEEN HURT BY SOMEBODY,
THEY ARE RELUCTANT, OF COURSE,
TO TRUST THEM.
SO PART OF THIS DOCUMENTARY IS
IN CIRCULATION OTHER STORIES AND
OTHER WAYS THESE GUYS COULD BE
AFTER HAVING USED VIOLENCE, SO
THAT BOTH... EARNING PEOPLE'S
TRUST AND THAT WE INCREASE OUR
EXPECTATIONS OF THESE MEN IN
TERMS OF WHAT THEY'RE CAPABLE OF
AFTER THEY'VE USED VIOLENCE AND
HOW THEY CAN BE HELPFUL TO THE
PEOPLE THAT THEY HAVE HARMED.

Nam says YOU SPENT A LOT OF
TIME WITH ATTIYA AND STEVE.
WHAT DOES STEVE GAIN FROM DOING
THIS DOCUMENTARY?

Todd says I THINK WHAT HE GAINED
THROUGH SEEING THAT HIS
WILLINGNESS TO TAKE
RESPONSIBILITY AND TO
EXPERIENCE... ACKNOWLEDGE WHAT
HE DID IN DETAIL AS ATTIYA TALKS
ABOUT IT AND TO BE PRESENT AND
TO THE SHAME THAT HE FEELS
AROUND THAT, SO HE'S NOT RUNNING
FROM THE SHAME OF WHAT HE'S
DONE, HE'S PRESENT TO IT.
I THINK THAT HE GETS TO SEE THAT
THAT ACTUALLY HAS A SIGNIFICANT
IMPACT ON ATTIYA'S OWN HEALING
AND MOVING AWAY FROM SYMPTOMS OF
PTSD, POST TRAUMATIC STRESS
DISORDER THAT SHE'S HAD FOR 20
YEARS, SO HE CAN SEE THE IMPACT
THAT THIS HAS HAD, HIS
WILLINGNESS TO TAKE
RESPONSIBILITY FOR HIS CHOICES
AND NOT BLAME HER, THAT HIS
OWN... HE BOTH FEELS ASHAMED
ABOUT HAVING BEEN ABUSIVE AND AT
THE SAME TIME HIS SELF RESPECT
GOES UP BECAUSE YOU CAN SEE THAT
HE IS ACTUALLY REPAIRING WHAT
HE'S DONE AND HE'S CONTRIBUTING
TO DOING THE RIGHT THING FOR
ATTIYA.

Nam says HOW DID YOU GET
INVOLVED WITH "A BETTER MAN"?

Todd says ATTIYA HAD MADE THE FIRST
ROUGH INTERVIEW WITH STEVE THAT
SHE DID.
MY IMPRESSION WAS THAT SHE
DIDN'T QUITE KNOW WHAT TO MAKE
OF IT.
YOU KNOW, IF STEVE WAS BEING
HONEST AND, YOU KNOW, HOW TO
UNDERSTAND HIS RESPONSES,
BECAUSE SHE HAD BEEN TALKING TO
WOMEN WHO HAD BEEN ABUSED FOR 20
YEARS.
SHE HAD NOT BEEN TALKING WITH
MEN WHO HAVE USED ABUSE FOR THE
LAST 20 YEARS.
AND SO SHE SENT IT TO ME.
SHE FOUND ME IN HALIFAX.
I WORK OUT OF TRURO, NOVA
SCOTIA.
SHE FOUND ME IN NOVA SCOTIA, AND
BECAUSE OF THE WRITING THAT I'VE
DONE ON THIS TOPIC, I'VE BEEN
DOING THIS WORK FOR 20 YEARS AND
HAVE PUBLISHED QUITE A BIT ON
IT, AND SO SHE FOUND SOME OF
THOSE WRITINGS AND THROUGH THOSE
WRITINGS SHE CONNECTED WITH ME
AND THEN INVITED ME TO LOOK AT
THEIR RAW FOOTAGE AND SAY, WHAT
DO YOU SEE HERE?
AND WHAT I SAW WAS TWO PEOPLE,
STEVE AND ATTIYA, TRYING TO HAVE
THE KIND OF RESTORATIVE
CONVERSATIONS THAT I'M HAVING IN
MY OFFICE ON A REGULAR BASIS,
AND THEN THROUGH THAT PROCESS,
SHE INVITED ME TO COME UP AND
INTERVIEW THEM, SEPARATELY AND
THEN TOGETHER, WHICH IS WORK
THAT I DO ON A DAILY BASIS IN
NOVA SCOTIA.
SO SHE INVITED ME TO BECOME PART
OF THE FILM PROJECT AS A RESULT.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: @theagenda, TVO.org, Facebook, YouTube, Periscope, Instagram."

Nam says I'D LIKE TO TALK TO
YOU ABOUT RESTORATIVE JUSTICE A
LITTLE LATER.
JEFF, WHAT WAS YOUR FIRST
IMPRESSION ABOUT THE FILM, "A
BETTER MAN"?

The caption changes to "JEFF PERERA. Higherunlearning.com"

Jeff says THIS IS
IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO...
WHETHER IT'S PEOPLE LIKE MYSELF
DOING WORK PROFESSIONALLY WITH
MEN OR HAVING CONVERSATIONS
BETWEEN MEN, THIS IS SUCH A KEY
TOOL, THIS FILM, TO HELP NURTURE
THOSE DISCUSSIONS AND HAVE
MODELS OF ACCOUNTABILITY AND
WHAT THAT COULD LOOK LIKE FOR
MEN.
THIS ISN'T A DAY OF OUR
RECKONING AS MEN, IT'S A DAY OF
AWAKENING AS MEN.
IT'S TIME FOR US TO HAVE
COURAGEOUS CONVERSATIONS ABOUT
OUR OWN BEHAVIOURS AND ACTIONS
AND HAVE THAT WITH EACH OTHER AS
MEN.
THIS GIVES US TOOLS TO SEE WHAT
THAT LOOKS LIKE.
IT'S NOT ABOUT PUTTING STEVE ON
A PEDESTAL BUT SAYING THIS IS AN
EXAMPLE OF POSSIBILITY, WHAT IT
CAN LOOK LIKE FOR MEN TO FACE
THE FEAR OF THEIR TRUTHS AND TO
MODEL HUMILITY AND
ACCOUNTABILITY AND MEETING
SOMEONE HALFWAY.
IT'S NOT ALWAYS POSSIBLE TO HAVE
THESE KINDS OF OPPORTUNITIES FOR
A SURVIVOR TO CONFRONT AND FACE
THEIR ABUSER...

Nam says IT'S KIND OF WEIRD TO
CHOOSE OPPORTUNITY, BUT HOW ELSE
CAN YOU SAY IT?

Jeff says IT'S NOT ALWAYS POSSIBLE.
THERE IS A POSSIBILITY FOR THAT.
AT LEAST FOR MEN WHO HAVE BEEN
HARMFUL, THAT THEY CAN MODEL AND
SEE WHAT IT IS TO LEAN INTO THAT
DISCOMFORT AND DO THE HARD INNER
WORK.

Nam says CHRISTINE, WHAT'S BEEN
THE REACTION OF THIS FILM THAT'S
BEEN SCREENED AROUND THE WORLD?

Christine says WE'RE
JUST GETTING STARTED.
IT'S BEEN REALLY POSITIVE.
EVERY SCREENING IS FOLLOWED BY
REALLY INCREDIBLE CONVERSATIONS
WITH THE AUDIENCE MEMBERS WHO...
YOU KNOW, THEY'RE OFTEN... THERE
ARE SOME WOMEN WHO ARE TRIGGERED
BY THIS FILM.
THEY HAVE A VERY HARD TIME WITH
IT BUT THEY WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT.
WE ALWAYS TRY TO SET UP THE
SCENARIO OF REAL CARE AT OUR
SCREENINGS, WE HAVE COUNSELLORS
AVAILABLE TO PEOPLE IF THEY NEED
TO TALK, AND SOMETIMES THEY DO.
BUT WE ALSO HAVE PEOPLE COMING
UP TO US AND SAYING, SEEING
THEIR STORIES REFLECTED ON
SCREEN AND IN THIS WAY HAS
REALLY HELPED THEM MOVE FORWARD
WITH THEIR OWN STEPS THAT
THEY'RE TAKING AND THIS IS
COMING FROM BOTH WOMEN AND MEN.
WE HEAR MOSTLY FROM WOMEN AFTER
OUR SCREENINGS.
WE HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE EMAILING
US AND CONTACTING US IN
DIFFERENT WAYS.
BUT WE HAVE HAD SOME MEN COME UP
TO US WHO ARE WORKING ON THEIR
JOURNEYS TOWARDS NON-VIOLENCE OR
HAVE BEEN THROUGH VERY SIMILAR
SCENARIOS, AND IT'S DOING WHAT
WE WANT IT TO DO.
IT'S IGNITING A CONVERSATION.
WE'VE HAD PEOPLE WALK OUT ON THE
FILM.
YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT TO SAY THAT
THIS IS A PERFECT STORY OR THIS
IS EVERYBODY'S STORY.
WE'VE PUT ATTIYA'S STORY ON
SCREEN TO SHARE HER CHOICES AND
HER JOURNEY THROUGH HER PATH IN
TERMS OF ACHIEVING THE JUSTICE
THAT SHE WANTS TO ACHIEVE, AND
WE'RE NOT PRESCRIBING IT AS A
MODEL FOR EVERYBODY.
BUT IT'S AN IDEA THAT'S A REALLY
IMPORTANT TO THINK ABOUT, AND
OUR TEAM BEHIND THIS PROJECT
REALLY BELIEVES IN DIALOGUE AND
DISCUSSION, AND WE HOPE THAT
THAT'S WHAT THIS FILM IS DOING,
AND IT SEEMS TO BE.

Nam says TOD, I WANT TO TALK
MORE ABOUT THE WORK THAT YOU DO.
HOW DO YOU STAY NEUTRAL HAVING
THESE CONVERSATIONS, WATCHING
THE FILM?
YOU'RE VERY NEUTRAL SPEAKING TO
ATTIYA AND STEVE.
HOW DO YOU STAY NEUTRAL?

Todd says I REALLY
WOULDN'T DESCRIBE IT AS NEUTRAL.
I MEAN, IN TERMS OF... I'M
PASSIONATE THROUGHOUT MY
ENGAGEMENT WITH BOTH STEVE AND
ATTIYA, BUT I'M NOT NEUTRAL
INASMUCH AS...

Nam says WHAT I MEAN BY
"NEUTRAL" IS I DIDN'T SENSE ANY
JUDGMENT COMING ACROSS.

Todd says YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT, YEAH.
PART OF MY... IN TERMS OF
CURIOSITY, IN THESE
CONVERSATIONS IN THE EARLY DAYS,
IT WAS REALLY ABOUT MY... I WAS
JUDGMENTAL AND CONFRONTING THE
GUYS EVERY TIME THEY MINIMIZED
THE SERIOUSNESS OF THE ABUSE OR
DENIED IT OR BLAMED IT ON OTHER
PEOPLE.
I DIDN'T FIND THAT WAS VERY
HELPFUL IN GETTING THE GUYS TO
ACTUALLY CONSIDER THE
SERIOUSNESS OF THEIR VIOLENCE
AND WHAT THEIR OWN VALUES ARE
AND HOW THEY FEEL ABOUT... WHAT
THE EFFECT IS OF VIOLENCE ON
THEIR OWN LIVES.
SO PART OF ADOPTING A STANCE OF
CURIOSITY, KIND OF POLITICAL
CURIOSITY WITH THE MEN AGAINST
THEIR VIOLENCE, IS JUST REALLY
TRYING TO... THE MEN KIND OF
ALREADY KNOW WHAT I THINK ABOUT
VIOLENCE.
I MEAN, I'M WORKING IN A
DOMESTIC VIOLENCE PROGRAM.
MY JOB REALLY IS TO TRY TO GET
FROM THEM WHAT'S IMPORTANT TO
THEM, WHAT KIND OF RELATIONSHIPS
THEY WOULD PREFER TO BE HAVING,
AND MEN GENERALLY DON'T ARGUE
FOR VIOLENCE AND CHAOS OVER
PEACE, LOVE, AND CARING AND
LONG-TERM RELATIONSHIPS.
SO THAT'S OFTEN... I WANT TO GET
WHAT THE MAN'S POSITION IS IN
TERMS OF THEIR VIOLENCE AND WHAT
THEY FEEL IS THE EFFECTS.
SO IT'S THE UTILITY OF ME NOT
CENTERING MYSELF IN THOSE
CONVERSATIONS IN THAT WAY WHERE
I'M ACTUALLY JUDGING THE MEN AND
TELLING THEM HOW THEY SHOULD
THINK AND HOW THEY SHOULD
BEHAVE.
REALLY, IT'S TRYING TO CURATE A
SPACE SO THE MEN CAN WORK THAT
OUT FOR THEMSELVES ACCORDING TO
THEIR OWN VALUES AND ETHICS, AND
THAT THAT'S WHAT LEADS THEM
TOWARDS WANTING TO STUDY THEIR
OWN VIOLENCE SO THEY CAN PUT A
STOP TO IT AND STUDY THE EFFECTS
OF IT AND START REPAIRING AND
HEALING THE EFFECTS OF IT.
THAT'S ALL DONE ON THE BASIS OF
THE MEN'S OWN VALUES AND ETHICS,
NOT BECAUSE I'M CAJOLING THEM
INTO IT.
THOSE ARE CONVERSATIONS I HAVE,
OFTEN THEY'RE MANDATED
CONVERSATIONS.
I THINK THERE'S A COMMUNITY
RESPONSIBILITY TO SET UP THESE
CONVERSATIONS.
BUT ONCE THEY'RE IN THE
CONVERSATIONS WITH ME, I REALLY
SEE MY EXPLORATION IS TO INVITE
THE MEN TO COME FORWARD WITH
THEIR OWN VALUES.

Nam says WHEN YOU SAY
"MANDATED," THAT'S SOMETHING
THAT THE COURT WANTS THEM TO DO,
RIGHT?
IS THAT WHAT YOU MEAN?

Todd says THAT'S RIGHT, COURT MANDATED
OR CHILD PROTECTION SERVICES OR
OTHERWISE, YEAH.

Nam says JEFF, YOU'VE WATCHED
THE FILM WITH OTHER MEN.
WHAT'S BEEN THE REACTION FROM THEM?
DO ANY OF THEM SEE STEVE IN THEMSELVES?

Jeff says I THINK I WAS
FORTUNATE TO BRING A GROUP OF
MEN TO COME WATCH ONE OF THE
SCREENINGS AND WE HUNG OUT
AFTERWARDS AND TALKED.
I'VE TALKED TO SOME MEN WHO HAVE
SEEN THE FILM AS WELL.
IT'S AN OPPORTUNITY TO DO TWO
THINGS.
YES, IT'S AN OPPORTUNITY TO...
BECAUSE THE FILM IS NOT JUST
ABOUT US AS MEN, IT'S ABOUT THE
IMPACT WE'VE HAD ON PEOPLE,
WOMEN, PEOPLE OF OTHER GENDERS,
BUT IT'S A MOMENT THAT AGAIN CAN
DEFINE US IN HOW WE REACT AND
RESPOND.
IN ADDITION TO TRYING TO
EMPATHIZE AND UNDERSTAND AND
CONTEXTUALIZE WHAT ATTIYA HAS
BEEN THROUGH, IT'S AN
OPPORTUNITY TO SEE THROUGH
STEVE'S EYES AND SEE OURSELVES
IN STEVE.
WE MAY NOT HAVE DONE SOMETHING
TO THAT EXTREME WHEN IT COMES TO
VIOLENCE AND HARM, BUT WE CAN
SEE IN OUR OWN WAYS WHERE WE'VE
MADE MISTAKES AND THOSE MOMENTS
OF FIGHT OR FLIGHT, WE CAN LEAN
INTO THAT INSTEAD OF PULLING
OUT.
IT'S CREATING SPACES TO HAVE
THOSE CONVERSATIONS AMONGST
OURSELVES AS MEN OR INTERNALLY
AS MEN.
BUILDING BRIDGES BETWEEN US AND
WITHIN US, MEANING BEING ABLE TO
HAVE THOSE CONVERSATIONS AND
OPEN UP AND TALK ABOUT IT
OPENLY, BUT KIND OF FACING IT
INTERNALLY, CONFRONTING THOSE
THINGS WE HAVEN'T EVEN THOUGHT
ABOUT OR HAVE BEEN RUNNING AWAY
FROM, YOU KNOW.
WHEN THEY TALK ABOUT OWNING THE
STORY OR THE STORY WILL OWN YOU.
THIS IS THAT MOMENT FOR MEN.

Nam says ONE OF THE THINGS
ABOUT THE FILM, NOT TO BE
JUDGMENTAL, ATTIYA AND STEVE
SAID THEY WERE IN THIS BUBBLE
BUT OTHER PEOPLE KNEW WHAT WAS
HAPPENING IN THIS BUBBLE BUT
THEY DID NOTHING TO INTERVENE.
TOD, WHY DON'T MORE PEOPLE
INTERVENE WHEN SOMETHING IS
OBVIOUSLY WRONG?

The caption changes to "A culture of silence."

Todd says I THINK
THERE'S A NUMBER OF REASONS.
I MEAN, ONE OF THE MAJOR ONES I
THINK IS PEOPLE ARE... WE DON'T
REALLY HAVE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT
HOW TO INTERVENE IN THESE KIND
OF SITUATIONS AND PART OF THE
MESSAGE OF THE FILM IS THAT EVEN
IF IT'S SIMPLY ACKNOWLEDGMENT
THAT IT'S ACTUALLY HAPPENING TO
THE PERSON, THAT THAT CAN BE A
SIGNIFICANT INTERVENTION IN AND
OF ITSELF.
I THINK PART OF PEOPLE IN NOT
KNOWING HOW TO RESPOND TO THESE
SITUATIONS IS THEY ALSO DON'T
WANT TO CREATE HARM, MORE HARM
FOR THE VICTIM AND THEY'RE NOT
SURE HOW THEIR INTERVENTIONS
MIGHT EITHER CONTRIBUTE OR NOT
CONTRIBUTE TO DOING THAT.
SO I THINK PART OF THIS FILM IS
REALLY TRYING TO OPEN UP THE
POSSIBILITY AND GIVE PEOPLE SOME
SENSE OF WHAT KIND OF A
VICTIM-DRIVEN OR VICTIM-CENTERED
RESPONSE TO THIS ISSUE WOULD BE.
AND OF COURSE THAT RESPONSE
NEEDS TO START WITH ASKING HER
WHAT SHE WANTS IN THIS SITUATION
SO THERE'S AN ACKNOWLEDGMENT AND
THEN THERE'S ALSO ASKING HER,
WHAT WOULD BE HELPFUL IN THIS
KIND OF SITUATION?
BUT WITHOUT THAT KIND OF CLARITY
ABOUT HOW TO RESPOND, I THINK
PEOPLE ARE JUST UNSURE AND
RELUCTANT AS A RESULT.

Nam says CHRISTINE, WHY WAS
THIS IMPORTANT TO INCLUDE IN THE
FILM, TO SHOW CERTAIN PEOPLE IN
THEIR LIFE DIDN'T INTERVENE?

Christine says WELL,
IT'S... THIS FILM IS ABOUT MORE
THAN JUST ATTIYA'S STORY, ATTIYA
AND STEVE'S STORY, IT'S ABOUT
THE ROLE OF COMMUNITY AND, YOU
KNOW, WE ARE TELLING THE STORY
THROUGH ATTIYA'S EXPERIENCE AND
STEVE'S EXPERIENCE, BUT REALLY
WE WANTED TO SHINE A BIT OF A
LIGHT ON THE COMMUNITY RESPONSE
THAT THEY SAW IN THEIR EXPERIENCE.
AND A LOT OF THE WORK THAT WE'RE
DOING WITH THE FILM, OUTSIDE OF
THE FILM, IS TRYING TO IGNITE
THESE CONVERSATIONS AND SUPPORT
THESE CONVERSATIONS AROUND HOW
TO TALK ABOUT THE SUBJECT AND
HOW TO TALK WITH EACH OTHER
ABOUT THIS AND WHAT THE
COMMUNITY'S ROLE IS ABOUT THIS,
BECAUSE WE'RE STILL LEARNING HOW
TO DO THIS.
BY SHOWING THESE MOMENTS IN THE
FILM THAT ARE NOT EASY TO WATCH
AND THEY'RE VERY PAINFUL TO
REALIZE THE ROLE WE ALL PLAY IN
THESE STORIES, REALLY I THINK
HAS... I MEAN, A LOT OF PEOPLE
HAVE COME TO US AND SAID THEY'VE
HAD SIMILAR EXPERIENCES, THEY
FEEL THAT ROLE IN OUR COMMUNITY,
THEY KNOW THIS IS WHAT'S
HAPPENING AND WE'RE NOT
RESPONDING, WE'RE NOT
INTERVENING, WE'RE NOT
EDUCATING... LIKE, YOU KNOW,
PEOPLE REALLY FEEL THAT.
BY VERY QUIETLY SHOWING THIS
EXPERIENCE OF ATTIYA IN THE
FILM, IT SPARKED DISCUSSION
AROUND WHAT MATTERS HERE.

Nam says JEFF, WHEN YOU TALK TO
MEN AND TO GROUPS WHEN YOU CAME
TO THE FILM, WHAT ROLE DO RACE
AND CULTURE PLAY IN ABUSE AND
THE SILENCE AROUND IT?

Jeff says I THINK THAT
THERE'S A LOT OF COMMONALITIES
WITH MEN UNIVERSALLY, NO MATTER
WHERE YOU'RE FROM, AROUND THESE
ISSUES.
THERE'S STIGMA... I'LL SPEAK OF
A MAN FROM, YOU KNOW, SOUTH
ASIAN COMMUNITIES, THAT THERE IS
THIS... OTHER MEN GET DRUNK AND
BEAT THEIR WOMEN.
RACIAL STEREOTYPES.
THERE'S A TRUTH THAT VIOLENCE
AGAINST WOMEN IS HAPPENING AT
THE HANDS OF MEN IN ANY SPACE,
ANY RELIGION, WITHIN ANY
COMMUNITY, CULTURE, SUB-CULTURE,
ETC.
SO THERE IS A NEED TO HAVE SOME
OWNERSHIP OVER THE ISSUE.
AND THE MEN IN THE SPACE TO STEP
UP AND SAY, THIS IS SOMETHING WE
NEED TO TALK ABOUT AND
OVERCOMING THAT FEAR OF FEEDING
INTO A STEREOTYPE.
AND RATHER THAN DOING THAT, THIS
IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO SHOW THE
BEST OF US.
THAT WE ARE NOT THAT.
THAT WE CAN MODEL AND BE
EXAMPLES BY TAKING THIS
CONVERSATION HEAD ON.

Nam says IS IT REALLY THAT
SIMPLE, THOUGH?

The caption changes to "Jeff Perera, @jeffperera."

Jeff says NO, IT'S NOT.
I CAN TELL YOU FROM MY PERSONAL
EXPERIENCE, I'VE BEEN VERY
FORTUNATE TO SHARE SPACE WITH
DIFFERENT CULTURES AND RELIGIOUS
GROUPS.
YOU KNOW, IT'S... THE THING IS
NOT TO... THE FEELING THAT I'M
COMING IN AS A SAVIOUR OR
PERFECT PERSON TELLING THEM, OH,
YOU NEED TO DO BETTER.
IT'S ENCOURAGING THEM TO STEP UP
AND THEY NEED TO CHAMPION THAT
CAUSE AND FEEL THAT THEY CAN
SPEAK UP AND STEP UP AND TALK ABOUT.
THEY KNOW THEIR COMMUNITIES MORE
THAN WE DO, MORE THAN AN
OUTSIDER DOES.
IT'S ACKNOWLEDGING THAT THIS IS
AN ISSUE THAT HAPPENS EVERYWHERE
AND WE HAVE DIFFERENT WAYS OF
HAVING THE CONVERSATION.
I MEAN, A LOT OF OLD-SCHOOL
CULTURES WILL HAVE THIS IDEA OF,
LIKE, WE DON'T TALK ABOUT OUR
BUSINESS OUTSIDE OF OUR DOORS.
IT'S BECAUSE OF, AGAIN, THE
SHAME OR THE SOCIAL STATUS HOW
IT'S IMPACTED BY OUR TRUTHS.
BUT I THINK IT'S MORE IMPORTANT
TO EMBRACE THE POSITIVE IMPACT
WE CAN HAVE BY BEING HONEST
ABOUT THESE THINGS.

Nam says I'D LIKE TO SHOW
ANOTHER CLIP FROM THE FILM, AND
JUST TO GIVE AN EXAMPLE OF
ATTIYA AND STEVE'S THERAPY SESSIONS.

Another clip from the documentary plays. In the clip, Steve talks to Attiya.

Steve says WHAT YOU'RE REMINDING ME OF
IS THE LEVEL OF ANGER... NOT
QUITE HATE BUT ANGER.

Todd sits with them.

He says WHEN YOU LOOK BACK AT IT AS
AN ADULT, WHAT WERE YOU TAKING
OUT ON ATTIYA?

Steve says EVERYTHING.

Todd says WHAT WAS EVERYTHING?
HAD YOU EXPERIENCED VIOLENCE?

Steve says MM-HMM, YEAH.

Todd says DO YOU THINK THERE'S ANY
RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THAT
EXPERIENCE AND WHAT WAS GOING ON
WITH ATTIYA?

Steve says DEFINITELY.

The clip ends.
The caption changes to "The therapy route."

Nam says TOD, HOW DO YOU
BALANCE THE VICTIM'S PAIN AND
THE ABUSER'S SHAME WITH
COMPASSION FOR ONE ANOTHER IN
THE PROCESS OF THESE THERAPY SESSIONS?

Todd says I THINK
THAT'S A VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION.
I THINK IN THE EARLY DAYS OF
DOING THIS WORK, WE REALLY
THOUGHT TO HOLD THE MEN
ACCOUNTABLE AND RESPONSIBLE, WE
HAD TO BE TOUGH ON THEM AND
CONFRONT THEM AND GET IN THEIR
FACES AND CHALLENGE THE
DIFFERENT WAYS IN THAT THEY WERE
MINIMIZING THEIR ABUSE OR
WHATEVER.
AND WHAT I'VE LEARNED OVER THE
YEARS IS IT'S BEEN MUCH MORE THE
KIND OF COMPASSION ROUTE HAS
BEEN MUCH MORE CHALLENGING FOR
MEN, CREATING A SPACE WHERE THEY
CAN BE HONEST ABOUT WHAT THEY'VE
DONE AND ACTUALLY CONFRONT THE
SHAME AND PAIN THAT THEY HAVE
OVER WHAT THEY'VE DONE HAS
RESULTED IN MUCH MORE HONESTY
FROM THE MEN AND HAS FACILITATED
THE PROCESS OF STUDYING THEIR
VIOLENCE AND STUDYING THE
EFFECTS OF IT AND WHAT THEY NEED
TO DO TO STOP IT.
SO I ACTUALLY FOUND THROUGH, YOU
KNOW, THE COMPASSION THAT I'M
BRINGING INTO THE CONVERSATION
AND CREATING CONTEXT AND
CONVERSATIONS AROUND RESPECT AND
TRUST AND CARING FOR THESE MEN,
THAT ACTUALLY THAT'S BEEN THE
MUCH TOUGHER PATH.
AND I WAS USING THAT
OPPOSITIONAL AND CONFRONTING
THESE GUYS, THAT'S ESPECIALLY
FROM ANOTHER GUY, TO BE IN THOSE
ENGAGEMENTS OF WIN-LOSE,
RIGHT-WRONG, AND THAT WAS COMMON
AND MANY OF THE MEN WERE BETTER
AT IT THAN I WAS.
WHEN THAT REALLY DIDN'T CHANGE
THE KIND OF CONVERSATIONS THESE
MEN... WHAT I WAS TRYING TO
INVITE THESE MEN INTO.
SO NOW THAT THE CONVERSATIONS
HAVE CHANGED AND THEY'RE MUCH
MORE ABOUT THIS COMPASSION, THAT
THE PATH IS MUCH MORE DIFFICULT
FOR THE MEN.
I'M NOT TRYING TO MAKE IT
DIFFICULT.
IT JUST IS MORE DIFFICULT
BECAUSE THE MEN FEEL SAFE ENOUGH
TO BE REALLY HONEST WITH
THEMSELVES ULTIMATELY ABOUT WHAT
THEY'VE DONE AND THE PAIN THAT
THEIR CHOICES HAVE LED TO.
AND SO REALLY I THINK PART OF
THE MESSAGE OF THE FILM IS THAT
ACCOUNTABILITY AND COMPASSION
ACTUALLY CAN COME TOGETHER.

Nam says HOW COMMON IS IT FOR
THE ABUSER TO NOT REMEMBER WHAT
THEY'VE DONE IN THE PAST?

Todd says I MEAN, THERE'S JUST... IT'S COMMON.
IT'S COMMON FOR THE WOMEN AND
MEN TO REMEMBER IT DIFFERENTLY
BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE IN
THE SAME EXPERIENCE, THEY WERE
ASSIGNING MEANING AND IMPORTANCE
TO DIFFERENT THINGS DURING THAT
ENGAGEMENT, WHICH HAPPENS IN THE FILM.
AND ALSO, I MEAN, SOME OF THE MEN DO FORGET.
THEY'VE BEEN TRYING TO REPRESS
SOMETHING THAT THEY'VE BEEN
ASHAMED OF AND THAT'S PAINFUL
FOR THEM, FOR QUITE A WHILE, SO
THEY'VE BEEN TRYING TO DISTRACT
THEMSELVES FROM WAYS THEY WERE
NOT PROUD OF.
SO THE FORGETTING IS COMMON.
AND OF COURSE SOMETIMES MEN SAY
THEY FORGET WHEN THEY REALLY DO
REMEMBER, BUT THEY'RE TOO
ASHAMED TO ADMIT IT AND THEY
DON'T FEEL SAFE ENOUGH OR
RESPECTED IN THE CONVERSATION,
SO THEY LIE ABOUT IT.
AND AT THE SAME TIME, OFTEN WHAT
I FIND IS THAT IF I CAN CREATE
ENOUGH... IN THE CONTEXT OF THE
CONVERSATIONS I HAVE, IF I CAN
CREATE ENOUGH SAFETY AND RESPECT
FOR THE MEN, THEY RECOGNIZE THAT
BY LYING TO ME THAT, YOU KNOW,
THE ONLY PERSON WHO IS REALLY
GETTING HURT FROM THAT IS
THEMSELVES AT THIS POINT IN
TERMS OF THINGS NOT MOVING
FORWARD AND HER, IN TERMS OF HIM
NOT CHANGING HIS BEHAVIOUR, AS
STEVE DOES IN THE FILM.

Nam says AND THE FILM ITSELF,
CHRISTINE, HAS A SILENT QUALITY TO IT.
THERE'S PLENTY OF BREATHING ROOM.
WHY WAS THIS IMPORTANT?

The caption changes to "Christine Kleckner, @lanewaypics."

Christine says IT'S
IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT'S A REALLY
HARD STORY.
IT'S A HARD FILM TO WATCH.
WE'RE IN VERY INTIMATE
CONVERSATIONS ABOUT INTIMATE
PARTNER VIOLENCE BETWEEN ATTIYA
AND STEVE, AND IT'S A
CHALLENGING FILM AND WE NEEDED
TO... WE NEEDED TO CREATE SPACE
TO ABSORB WHAT WE'VE LEARNED, TO
CONTEMPLATE WHAT WE'VE LEARNED,
TO BREATHE, TO HAVE A BREAK FROM
IT, TO HEAR ATTIYA'S VOICE.
IN ALL THE MOMENTS THAT WE
BREATHE, WE ARE HEARING HER
VOICEOVER SO WE'RE GETTING HER
PERSPECTIVE OUTSIDE OF HER
DIRECT EXPERIENCES WITH STEVE IN
THE FILM.
AND IT JUST... WE DID EVERYTHING
TO AVOID SENSATIONALIZING THIS
TOPIC.
WE TRIED TO BE VERY HONEST AND
REAL AND TO CREATE SPACE RATHER
THAN OVERWHELMING, ALARM, AND
SCARE OUR AUDIENCE INTO, YOU
KNOW... I JUST FEEL LIKE A LOT
OF FILMS ON THIS SUBJECT MATTER
CAN FEEL VERY
OVERSENSATIONALIZED, AND WE'VE
DONE EVERYTHING TO AVOID THAT.

Nam says JEFF, I WANT TO ASK
YOU THIS QUESTION BUT I WANT TO
ADDRESS IT TO TOD FIRST.
CAN SOMEONE GET A SENSE OF
JUSTICE OR TO A PLACE OF HEALING
WITHOUT DOING THERAPY SESSIONS
WITH THEIR ABUSER?

The caption changes to "Obtaining justice."

Todd says OH, FOR SURE.
YEAH, YEAH.
MOST OF THE CONVERSATIONS OR
CONTACT THAT WE WOULD HAVE IS
NOT ACTUALLY FACE TO FACE.
I MEAN, THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS IN
THIS FILM.
BUT, YOU KNOW, OFTEN THESE
WOMEN... AND MEN ARE STILL
CONNECTED THROUGH CHILDREN, EVEN
IF THE RELATIONSHIP ENDED...
THAT THEY'RE STILL CONNECTED
WITH CHILDREN OR LIVE IN THE
SAME SMALL COMMUNITY.
PART OF THE POINT OF THE FILM IS
THINKING ABOUT JUSTICE OR
OUTCOMES IN TERMS OF REPAIRING
AND HEALING THE HARMS.
THAT'S HOW WE'RE THINKING OF
JUST OUTCOMES IN THESE CASES.
PART OF THAT... LOTS OF REPAIR
CAN HAPPEN WITHOUT THE WOMAN AND
MAN ACTUALLY MEETING FACE TO
FACE.
IT CAN HAPPEN THROUGH
COUNSELLORS OR THROUGH LETTERS
OR THROUGH VIDEO.
I MEAN, THERE'S LOTS OF
DIFFERENT WAYS THAT THAT CAN
HAPPEN.
AND CERTAINLY THERE'S LOTS OF
DIFFERENT COMPONENTS OF HEALING.
YOU KNOW, A POWERFUL ONE IS, IF
THE PERSON WHO HURTS YOU, WHO
HAS BLAMED YOU FOR WHY THEY'VE
ABUSED YOU, IF THAT PERSON CAN
TAKE RESPONSIBILITY AND TELL YOU
THAT, NO, YOU WEREN'T TO BLAME
FOR THE ABUSE, THAT WAS WRONG
WHAT I WAS DOING, I WAS 100 percent
RESPONSIBLE.
OFTEN THAT'S VERY POWERFUL FOR
WOMEN WHO HAVE BEEN ABUSED AND
BLAMED FOR THE ABUSE.
IT'S VERY POWERFUL FOR THEM TO
HEAR THAT FROM THE PERSON WHO
HAD HURT THEM.

Nam says IS THAT WHAT WE MEAN
WHEN WE HEAR RESTORATIVE JUSTICE?
WE'VE HEARD THAT USED TO
DESCRIBE THE FILM.

Todd says THAT'S RIGHT.
AND RESTORATIVE JUSTICE IN THIS
CASE MEANING JUSTICE BEING
DEFINED AS REPAIRING AND HEALING
THE HARMS THAT WERE DONE.
SO IT'S NOT SO INTERESTED PER SE
IN PROSECUTIONS AND COURT TIME
AND THINKING THAT JUSTICE ONLY
HAPPENS IN COURTROOMS.
PART OF THIS IS ABOUT THINKING
ABOUT JUSTICE AS RESTORING
SAFETY, RESTORING RESPECT,
INTEGRITY, AND WHEN A HARM HAS
BEEN DONE, HOW DOES THE PERSON
WHO DID THE HARM AND OTHERS IN
THE COMMUNITY, NOT JUST THAT
PERSON, BUT OTHERS IN THE
COMMUNITY CONTRIBUTE TO
REPAIRING THE HARMS THAT WERE DONE.

Nam says I WANT TO SHOW ANOTHER
CLIP FROM THE FILM, AND THIS IS
A CLIP OF WHEN ATTIYA AND STEVE
GO BACK TO THEIR OLD APARTMENT
WHERE THE ABUSE TOOK PLACE.
LET'S TAKE A LOOK.

Another clip from the documentary plays.

Attiya and Steve sit on a sidewalk side by side on a cold day.

She says YOU'D THINK ONE PERSON ON THE
ENTIRE STREET WOULD HAVE HELPED.

She looks emotional and covers her mouth.

(INAUDIBLE)

She says I FEEL LIKE I'M GOING TO
THROW UP.
OH, GOD.

He stands up and then she stands up. She walks away to an alley.

He follows her and says ATTIYA?

She says I'M TRYING TO THROW UP.

He says DO YOU MIND MY BEING HERE?

She says NO, NOT AT ALL.

The clip ends.

Nam says THAT WAS I THINK ONE
OF THE MOST POWERFUL MOMENTS
FROM THE FILM FOR ME.
TOD, WHAT DID IT TAKE TO GET
THEM TO THIS POINT WHERE THAT
COULD HAPPEN?

The caption changes to "Becoming better men."

Todd says WELL,
THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF WORK AND
CONVERSATIONS THAT HAVE GONE ON
BEFORE THAT SCENE, AND PART OF
WHAT, IN TERMS OF EARNING THE
TRUST, ATTIYA'S TRUST, IS
STEVE'S WILLINGNESS TO REALLY
ACKNOWLEDGE HER EXPERIENCE OF
HIS CHOICES WERE AND WHAT THE
EFFECTS OF THAT WERE AND HIS OWN
WILLINGNESS TO EXPLORE HIS OWN
EXPERIENCE AND HOW HE ENDS UP
MAKING CHOICES THAT WERE, YOU
KNOW, CONTRARY TO HOW HE'D
PREFER TO BE IN THE RELATIONSHIP
AND HIS WILLINGNESS TO STAY BACK
IN TERMS OF WHAT HE'S ACTUALLY
HEARING HER TALK ABOUT.
YOU KNOW, HIS... AND BEING ABLE
TO BE PRESENT TO HIS OWN SHAME
ABOUT THAT WHILE AT THE SAME
TIME TRYING TO CARE FOR ATTIYA.
SO IT'S NOT A SHAME OF
SELF-ABSORPTION WHERE HE'S
PITYING HIMSELF.
THAT'S NOT THE QUALITY OF THE
SHAME AT ALL.
THE SHAME REALLY IS ABOUT HER
EXPERIENCING THE FACT THAT HE
UNDERSTANDS IT AND THAT HE FEELS
ASHAMED ABOUT THESE CHOICES THAT
HE MADE, AND THAT THROUGH THAT
PROCESS, ATTIYA AND OTHER WOMEN
GAIN THE TRUST THAT... AND HE
HAS A PLAN FOR IT NOT HAPPENING
AGAIN AND HE'S SEEKING TO
UNDERSTAND THAT EXPERIENCE AND
WANTS TO MAKE SURE THAT HE'S
PART OF THE SOLUTION TO
REPAIRING WHAT'S HAPPENED HERE
AND OF COURSE PART OF THE
SOLUTION FOR ATTIYA IS FOR STEVE
TO BE WILLING TO BE PUBLIC ABOUT
WHAT HE DID.
SO IT'S NOT JUST A PRIVATE
CONVERSATION.
THAT'S EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.
BUT IT'S ALSO THE FACT THAT
ATTIYA WANTED HIM TO BE PUBLIC
ABOUT WHAT HE HAD DONE TO TRY TO
PREVENT THIS FROM HAPPENING TO
OTHER PEOPLE.
SO THAT'S PART OF WHAT STEVE WAS
WILLING TO DO IN THIS SITUATION.
AND SO THROUGH THAT PROCESS,
HE'S EARNING TRUST SO THAT YOU
COULD HAVE SCENES LIKE THAT PLAY OUT.

Nam says CHRISTINE, WHAT IS, IT WAS ME?

An animation with the title "It was me" plays on screen. A caption reads "www.abettermanfilm.com"

Christine says IT WAS
ME IS OUR INTERACTIVE COMPANION
PIECE TO THE FILM.
SO WE'VE MADE AN ONLINE PIECE
THAT'S ON OUR WEBSITE THAT IS A
SEPARATE PROJECT THAT ALSO
HIGHLIGHTS THE VOICES OF SIX MEN
WHO ARE ON THEIR PATHS TOWARDS
USING... TO BE NON-VIOLENT MEN.
WE MET THEM THROUGH A GROUP IN
ONTARIO, AND IT'S AN INTERACTIVE
PIECE THAT WE'VE TRIED TO BRING
IN NEW VOICES.
WE'RE NOT HEARING JUST STEVE'S
VOICE IN THIS STORY.
WE'RE MEETING OTHER MEN WHO TALK
ABOUT THEIR ACCOUNTABILITY AND
WHAT THEY'RE DOING TO IMPROVE.
IT'S A REALLY INTERESTING PIECE.
IT'S WORTH GOING TO THE WEBSITE
TO CHECK OUT.
WE REALLY TRIED TO PULL IN
PEOPLE FROM... WE HAD SURVIVORS
OF VIOLENCE DO A TWITTER CHAT
AND THEY GAVE US THE QUESTIONS
THAT THEY WOULD LIKE TO ASK
THEIR ABUSERS, AND WE TOOK THOSE
QUESTIONS TO THESE MEN AND WE
ASKED THOSE QUESTIONS AND HAD
THEM... SO WE REALLY TRIED TO BE
CAREFUL AND CONSIDERATE ABOUT
HOW WE WENT ABOUT BRINGING
FORWARD THESE STORIES.
SO IT'S BEEN REALLY USEFUL IN
TERMS OF EXPANDING THE
CONVERSATION.

Nam says JEFF, I'D LIKE TO GIVE
YOU THE LAST WORD.
HOW CAN MEN HELP MEN IN VIOLENCE
AGAINST WOMEN?

Jeff says I THINK ONE OF
THE THINGS... THE WAY WE PROGRAM
AND CODE MEN IN SOCIETY IS TO BE
DISCONNECTED FROM EMOTIONAL
LITERACY AND LACKING EMPATHY.
SO I THINK ONE THING WE CAN DO
WITH EACH OTHER AT MEN IS HELP
BUILD EACH OTHER'S EMPATHY
MUSCLES.
THIS IS A PHRASE I USE.
MEANING IF YOU ARE SOMEONE WHO
WAS RAISED TO HAVE THAT
EMOTIONAL LITERACY, THINK OF
GOING TO THE GYM ALL THOSE
YEARS, YOU WORKED THAT MUSCLE.
MEN IN THEIR 20S AND 30S AND
40S, ETC., HAVE TO WORK THAT
EMPATHY MUSCLE.
IT'S GOING TO THE GYM AND
THINKING, WHAT DO I DO WITH
THIS?
WHAT DO I DO WITH THIS
EQUIPMENT?
IT'S HOW WE CAN SPOT EACH OTHER
SPIRITUALLY EMOTIONALLY AS MEN.
THE PHRASE IS: I SEE YOU, I
FEEL YOU, I'VE GOT YOU.
"I SEE YOU" IS THE SYMPATHY.
SEEING ATTIYA'S REALITY IN THIS
CASE, WATCHING THE FILM.
SEEING WHAT SHE HAS GONE THROUGH
AND REALIZING THE REALITY OF IT.
"I FEEL YOU" IS THE EMPATHY
PIECE.
IT'S INTERESTING HOW IT AFFECTS
HER IN HER LIFE BACK THEN, IN
HER HOME, IN HER COMMUNITY, AT
HOME, AT SCHOOL, HOW IT AFFECTED
HER LEARNING AND HOW SHE
DETACHED FROM SOCIETY AND THAT
KIND OF THING.
IT'S BEING ABLE TO SEE IT IN
ACTION.
"I GOT YOU" IS THE ACTION PIECE.
IT BECOMES MANIFEST IN YOUR OWN
LIFE, DURING THE INNER WORK.
RATHER THAN LEANING ON WOMEN TO
DOING THE EMOTIONAL HEAVY
LIFTING WE CAN DO THAT TOGETHER
AND TALK ABOUT THESE THINGS.
IT'S ABOUT BEING THE LESSON IN
ACTION, YOU KNOW, BY
DEMONSTRATING AND MODELLING TO
EACH OTHER AND CREATING
PERMISSION AMONGST OURSELVES TO
TALK ABOUT THIS STUFF AS MEN AND
GO THERE AND OWN IT AND SHOW UP
AND FACE IT AND THAT IT'S OKAY.
BY ME MODELLING AND OPENING UP
AND TALKING ABOUT MY MISTAKES,
WHICH I DO WITH MEN, I THINK
IT'S SO IMPORTANT BECAUSE THEN
THEY CAN SAY, OH, OKAY.
WELL, I MEAN, I CAN FACE THIS
THING THAT I'VE BEEN NUMBING
MYSELF FOR YEARS AVOIDING TO
TALK ABOUT.
AND THAT IN THE END WILL HELP US
TOWARDS MOVING TOWARDS A SOCIETY
WHERE MEN, WE CAN BE... WE CAN
HAVE FAITH RESTORED IN OUR MEN.

The caption changes to "Producer: Carla Lucchetta, @carrletta."

Nam says LET THAT BE THE LESSON
IN ACTION. THANK YOU, TOD, THANK
YOU, CHRISTINE, THANK YOU, JEFF
FOR HELPING US TO UNPACK THIS
COMPLEX ISSUE.

All the guests say THANK YOU.

Watch: Wider Dialogues on Domestic Abuse