Transcript: Creating A Safer Ontario | Nov 20, 2017

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and striped red and pink tie.

A caption on screen reads "Creating a safer Ontario. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says IT'S BEEN A LONG TIME COMING.
ONTARIO'S POLICE SERVICES ACT
HASN'T HAD A MAJOR UPDATE SINCE
BEFORE CELLPHONES AND THE
INTERNET ARRIVED ON THE SCENE.
ADD IN PUBLIC FRUSTRATION IN
COMMUNITIES THAT DON'T ALWAYS
FEEL WELL-SERVED BY POLICE, AND
THE 119 RECOMMENDATIONS FROM
MR. JUSTICE MICHAEL TULLOCH'S
POLICE OVERSIGHT REVIEW, AND IT
WAS TIME.
THE GOVERNMENT'S NOW PUT FORWARD
THE SO-CALLED SAFER ONTARIO ACT.
WILL IT DO THE JOB?
LET'S FIND OUT.
WE'LL ASK ROB JAMIESON,
PRESIDENT OF THE ONTARIO
PROVINCIAL POLICE ASSOCIATION.

Rob is in his fifties, clean-shaven, with short gray hair. He's wearing glasses, a gray suit, striped shirt and striped blue tie.

Steve continues MIKE METATAWABIN, BOARD CHAIR
FOR THE NISHNAWBE ASKI POLICE
SERVICE, ALSO KNOWN AS NAPS.

Mike is in his late fifties, clean-shaven, with short gray hair. He's wearing glasses and a bright red shirt embroidered on the chest.

Steve continues KATE PUDDISTER, ASSISTANT
PROFESSOR IN POLITICAL SCIENCE
AT THE UNIVERSITY OF GUELPH...

Kate is in her late thirties, with long straight auburn hair. She's wearing a black blazer over a gray shirt, and a beaded necklace.

Steve continues AND KINGSLEY GILLIAN, DIRECTOR OF COMMUNICATIONS FOR THE BLACK
ACTION DEFENCE COMMITTEE.

Kingsley us in his fifties, with short gray hair and a full beard. He's wearing glasses, a gray suit, white shirt, and printed green tie.

Steve continues AND WE'RE DELIGHTED TO WELCOME
ALL OF YOU TO TVO TONIGHT, FOR
WHAT I'M SURE WILL BE A
STIMULATING DEBATE ABOUT WHETHER
WE ARE CREATING A SAFER ONTARIO
WITH THE NEW RULES.
AND SHELDON, IF YOU WOULD BRING
UP THE NEW GRAPHIC, AND WE'LL GO
THROUGH SOME OF THE HIGHLIGHTS
OF A NEARLY 500 PAGE NEW BILL.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "Highlights of the Safer Ontario Act."

Bullet points read
Overhaul the police disciplinary process, expand scope of special investigations unit and publicly release its reports, revamp investigative body for public complaints against police officers, stiffer penalties for officers who don't comply with investigations, clearly define duties that can only be performed by a sworn police officer, improve training for police services boards, establish First Nations police services boards.

The caption changes to "New rules."

Steve continues THOSE ARE JUST SOME OF THE
HIGHLIGHTS OF AN ACT THAT
ACTUALLY RUNS, I THINK, MORE
THAN 500 PAGES, SO LET'S JUST GO
AROUND THE TABLE HERE AND GET
SOME INITIAL IMPRESSIONS, AND
THEN WE'LL GO INTO MORE DEPTH.
ROB, START US OFF.
WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS?

The caption changes to "Rob Jamieson. Ontario Provincial Police Association."

Rob says WELL, WE'VE HAD A CHANCE TO,
UH, HAVE A LOOK AT THIS
DOCUMENT, AND AS YOU'VE
MENTIONED, YOU KNOW, THERE'S
ALMOST 500 PAGES IN THIS
LEGISLATION.
SOME OF THE FIRST AREAS OF
CONCERN THAT WE SEE, FIRST AND
FOREMOST, IS ABOUT THE
ENGAGEMENT AND TRUE CONSULTATION
WITH GOVERNMENT, AND HAVING, YOU
KNOW, THE VOICE OF THE
ASSOCIATIONS BE HEARD THROUGH
THAT PROCESS IS, YOU KNOW,
CONCERNING WHEN WE LOOK AT A
DOCUMENT AND WE'RE HAVING TO
LEARN THIS STUFF ON THE FLY.
SO, SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WE
FIRST SEE, SPECIFICALLY AROUND
PRIVATIZATION OF POLICING
SERVICES, GIVES US GREAT CAUSE
FOR CONCERN.

Steve says I'M HEARING HERE THAT YOU
DON'T FEEL YOU WERE ADEQUATELY
CONSULTED DURING THE PROCESS?

Rob says YEAH, IT WAS CHALLENGING AT
TIMES TO HAVE OUR VOICES HEARD
AS THE VOICE FOR FRONTLINE, AND
THAT HAS BEEN INCREDIBLY
CONCERNING FOR US.
RECEIVING THIS DOCUMENT, AND
GOING THROUGH IT, AS WE ARE
RIGHT NOW, OVER THE LAST COUPLE
OF WEEKS.
LEARNING MANY THINGS FOR THE
FIRST TIME, SO YES, ABSOLUTELY.

Steve says OKAY, CHAIRMAN MIKE, WHAT
WOULD YOU ADD TO THAT FROM YOUR
POINT OF VIEW?

The caption changes to "Mike Metatawabin. Nishnawbe-Aski Police Service."

Mike says WELL, YOU KNOW, NISHNAWBE
ASKI POLICE SERVICES IS LOCATED
IN NORTHERN ONTARIO, AND THE
LEGISLATION... WE'VE BEEN A PART
OF THOSE CONVERSATIONS FOR THE
LAST, UH, FEW YEARS.
WE'VE BEEN, UH, WE'VE BEEN
BEHIND... I GUESS THE DRIVING
FORCE, AS WELL, BECAUSE, AS YOU
KNOW, OUR POLICE SERVICE COVERS
AN AREA THAT IS VERY REMOTE, 22
FLY-IN COMMUNITIES.
AND, UH, THE LEGISLATION IS...
WILL REALLY HELP OUR, UM...
OUR OPERATIONS IN TERMS OF
INFRASTRUCTURE AND PERSONNEL.
ALSO JUST THE FACT THAT THE RULE
OF LAW WILL BE, UH... INSTILLED,
OR IMPLEMENTED.

Steve says SO, IN THE MAIN, YOU
LIKE WHAT YOU SEE.

Mike says YES.

Steve says IN THE MAIN, OKAY, GOOD.
KINGSLEY, HOW ABOUT YOU?

The caption changes to "Kingsley Gilliam. Black Action Defence Committee."

Kingsley says WELL, I HAVE TO SAY...
BADC HAS BEEN FIGHTING FOR
CHANGE FOR QUITE SOME TIME.

Steve says "BADC" MEANING...

KINGSLEY SAYS BLACK
ACTION DEFENCE COMMITTEE.
AND I HAVE PERSONALLY BEEN
INVOLVED WITH THIS, I HAVE
CHALLENGED THE GOVERNMENT A
NUMBER OF OCCASIONS, TO TAKE
ACTION, BECAUSE OF THE
DETERIORATION OF CONFIDENCE IN
POLICING IN ONTARIO.

Steve says DOES THIS HELP WITH YOUR
CONFIDENCE LEVEL, THE CHANGES
THEY ARE SUGGESTING?

Kinglsey says IF IMPLEMENTED... IF PASSED
AND IMPLEMENTED, IT WILL BOOST
CONFIDENCE OF ALL PEOPLE IN
ONTARIO IN POLICING.
TODAY, WE ARE BENEFICIARIES OF,
UM, THE LEGACY OF POLICE ABUSE,
TO THE POINT WE ARE COHORTS OF
THE COHORTS OF BLACK AND OTHER
MINORITY YOUTHS IN TORONTO, AND
ELSEWHERE, ARE MORE AFRAID OF
THE POLICE THAT ARE SWORN TO
SERVE AND PROTECT THAN THE GANG
LEADERS IN THE COMMUNITIES.

Steve says INTERESTING, OKAY, MORE TO
FOLLOW UP ON THERE.
PROFESSOR KATE, WE'VE GOT YOU
BATTING CLEANUP HERE.
(LAUGHING)
YOU'VE HEARD WHAT EVERYBODY ELSE
HAD TO SAY, WHAT ARE YOUR
THOUGHTS?

The caption changes to "Kate Puddister. University of Guelph."

Kate says UM, I THINK ON FIRST READ, IT
LOOKS REALLY GOOD IN THAT IT'S
SETTING OUT WHAT THE OVERSIGHT
BODIES DO, IT'S CLEARLY DEFINING
THEIR RESPONSIBILITIES, AND IT'S
SORTING OUT SOME OVERLAP THAT
EXISTED BETWEEN SOME OF THE...
SOME OF THE OVERSIGHT BODIES.
IT EXPANDS JURISDICTION FOR ONE
OF THEM IN PARTICULAR, WHICH I
THINK IS EXCELLENT, I THINK...
SO, ON A WHOLE, IT LOOKS
PROMISING.
UM, BUT IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IT
REQUIRES QUITE A BIT OF
RESOURCING FOR IT TO COME INTO
PLAY, AND SO I'M... I'M
OPTIMISTIC, BUT CONCERNED ABOUT
IF THE RESOURCES WILL FOLLOW
THROUGH.

Steve says TELL ME WHAT THAT MEANS.

Kate says WELL, IF WE'RE GOING TO HAVE
EXPANDING THE MANDATE OF THE
OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT POLICE
REVIEW DIRECTOR, UM, TO TAKE
OVER ALL POLICING COMPLAINTS IN
THE PROVINCE, UM, RIGHT NOW THEY
ARE SORELY UNDERSTAFFED TO DO
THAT.
AS IT STANDS NOW, MOST
COMPLAINTS ARE HANDED BACK TO
THE FORCE THAT SOMEONE IS
COMPLAINING ABOUT.

Steve says SO THE POLICE
INVESTIGATE THEMSELVES?

Kate says YEAH, WHICH IS ONE OF THE
MAIN PROBLEMS THAT WE'RE TRYING
TO AVOID IN THE FIRST PLACE, SO
IT SOUNDS GREAT, UM, BUT IT
SEEMS TO ME THAT IT REQUIRES
QUITE A BIT OF RESOURCING, AND
THAT'S KEY.

Steve says ONE OF THE THINGS, UH,
OBVIOUSLY EVERY GOVERNMENT TRIES
TO DO WHEN IT DOES A MAJOR
OVERHAUL OF SOMETHING THAT
HASN'T BEEN DONE IN NEARLY THREE
DECADES, IS TO KIND OF FIND THE
SWEET SPOT AMONG ALL OF THE
COMPETING INTERESTS IN SOCIETY
THAT WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT
THEIR INTERESTS ARE REPRESENTED
IN THAT BILL.
AND I WANT TO FOLLOW UP WITH
YOU, ROB, ON WHETHER OR NOT
THE... I MEAN, THIS... THIS BILL
DEFINITELY MOVES TO MORE...
WHAT'S THE WORD I'M LOOKING
FOR... MORE OVERSIGHT, TOUGHER
OVERSIGHT OF POLICE ACTIVITIES.
IN YOUR JUDGEMENT, DO THE... ARE
THE AVERAGE MALE AND FEMALE COP
ON THE BEAT IN THIS PROVINCE
CONCERNED THAT THIS GOES TOO FAR?

Rob says ABSOLUTELY.

Steve says THEY ARE.

Rob says MORE OVERSIGHT SHOULD NOT
COME AT THE EXPENSE OF DUE
PROCESS, AND WHAT'S HAPPENING
WITH THIS... AND FIRST AND
FOREMOST, I JUST WANT TO STATE
THAT WE'RE NOT AGAINST
OVERSIGHT, WE'RE NOT AGAINST
BEING ACCOUNTABLE... THAT'S NOT
IT AT ALL.
AND ACTUALLY, I WOULD SAY MR.
JUSTICE TULLOCH WAS ONE OF THE
AREAS WHERE ACTUALLY WE DID HAVE
TRUE CONSULTATION.
ACTUALLY, I THINK MR. JUSTICE
TULLOCH IS A GOOD MAN, HE HAD A
TOUGH JOB, AND ACTUALLY, WE
SUPPORTED THE MAJORITY OF THE
RECOMMENDATIONS THAT HE PUT
FORWARD.
WHERE WE TAKE ISSUE IS WHEN WE
GET THIS DOCUMENT, AND WE SEE
RIGHTS BEING STRIPPED AWAY FROM
POLICE OFFICERS.
IN FACT, BEING ABLE TO GIVE THE
CHIEFS OF POLICE THE ABILITY TO
FIRE AN OFFICER WHO ACQUIRES A
DISABILITY, POST-TRAUMATIC
STRESS DISORDER.
YOU KNOW, ME, AS A PERSON WHO
HAS AN INVISIBLE DISABILITY, I
HAVE EPILEPSY, THIS IS EXTREMELY
CONCERNING ON A PERSONAL LEVEL.
AND MANY OF OUR PEOPLE, WHO HAVE
A COMBINATION... SO TO SEND THIS
SIGNAL IS INCREDIBLY CONCERNING
FOR THE PEOPLE THAT I REPRESENT.

Steve says SO, THE AVERAGE COP ON THE
BEAT WHO LOOKS AT THIS SAYS "OH, MY GOODNESS, YOU JUST MADE
IT FAR MORE DIFFICULT FOR ME TO
DO MY JOB."

Rob says TO THE POINT OF "WHY WOULD
YOU WANT TO GO INTO LAW ENFORCEMENT?"
WE HAVE NO ISSUES WITH
OVERSIGHT, ACCOUNTABILITY, AND
THEN TO LOOK AT THIS AND TO SEE
THE PRIVATIZATION ASPECT OF
THINGS, AND TO TALK ABOUT... HOW
DOES PRIVATIZATION... FOR PROFIT
COMPANIES... COMING IN MAKE IT
BETTER AND SAFER FOR THE
CITIZENS OF ONTARIO?
WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
DISTURBANCE RESPONSE, TICKETING,
TAKING AWAY CANINE, AND ALL
THESE OTHER SPECIALIZED UNITS,
AND TRYING TO IMPLEMENT THESE
THINGS?
BREAK AND ENTERS AFTER THE FACT,
WHERE YOU SEND THESE SECURITY
GUARDS OUT TO YOUR HOME, WHERE
YOU'VE TOTALLY HAD AN INVASION
OF YOUR PRIVACY.
ALSO, WE BELIEVE THIS WILL NOT
BRING DIVERSE, UH, COMMUNITIES
TOGETHER WITH THE POLICE IN ANY
WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM.

Steve says WELL, THAT'S... OKAY, LET ME
JUST PUSH BACK A LITTLE BIT ON
THAT, 'CAUSE WHAT YOU DIDN'T ADD
ON THAT LIST IS... IS THE COP ON
A SUNDAY AFTERNOON, MAKING
DOUBLE TIME, WATCHING A
CONSTRUCTION CREW DO IT'S THING,
AND THERE'S NO NEED TO PAY A COP
DOUBLE TIME TO DO THAT WHEN YOU
CAN PAY AN AVERAGE CITIZEN WAY LESS.

The caption changes to "Rob Jamieson, @R_JamiesonOPPA."

Rob says WELL, THAT'S CERTAINLY...
WE CERTAINLY CAN HAVE THAT
CONVERSATION, BUT AT THE END OF
THE DAY, THAT OFFICER IS ON
THEIR OWN TIME, GENERALLY
WORKING FOR PRIVATE COMPANIES,
WHO ARE PAYING THEM, SEPARATE,
APART FROM MUNICIPALITIES
THEMSELVES.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: @theagenda, TVO.org, Facebook, YouTube, Periscope, Instagram."

Steve says OKAY, KINGSLEY, I'M
GOING TO GET YOU TO COME BACK.
YOU NOW HEAR THAT IN THE VIEW OF
ROB, MANY POLICE OFFICERS IN
THIS PROVINCE ARE GOING TO FEEL
UNUSUALLY IN THE CROSSHAIRS ON
THIS ONE, MORE SO THAN THEY
THINK IS COMFORTABLE FOR THEM TO
DO THEIR JOB.
WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?

Kinglsey says WELL, WHAT WE ARE SEEING, WE
HAVE...
MILLIONS OF DOLLARS PAID OUT
ANNUALLY FOR CIVIL SUITS
INVOLVING POLICE ABUSE.
WE HAVE A NUMBER OF POLICE
OFFICERS THAT ARE SUSPENDED WITH
PAY, SOME OF THEM COLLECTING
MORE THAN 100,000 dollars PER YEAR.
THE SUNSHINE LIST, JUST LAST
SUMMER, BROUGHT THAT TO
HIGHLIGHT.
UH, CONSTABLE FORCILLO, THE ONE
WHO SHOT SAMMY YATIM ON THE
EMPTY STREETCAR...

Steve says HE IS ALLEGED TO HAVE
VIOLATED HIS BAIL CONDITIONS.

fKingsley says BAIL CONDITIONS.
WELL, HE, UM, HE HAS BEEN ON
SUSPENSION FOR THREE YEARS, AND
COLLECTING HIS FULL SALARY.
AND THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT
SHORTAGE OF MONEY.
HE IS CONVICTED, HE WAS FOUND
GUILTY!
HE IS JUST APPEALING THE
SENTENCE.

Steve says SO, IS IT YOUR VIEW THE
POLICE HAVE NOTHING TO COMPLAIN
ABOUT WHEN IT COMES TO THESE CHANGES?

Kingsley says I'M NOT SAYING THAT
THEY... I'M NOT SAYING THAT THEY
HAVE NOTHING TO COMPLAIN ABOUT,
I AM NOT... NOR IS BADC...
ANTI-POLICE, WE ARE ANTI-BAD
POLICING, BUT POLICING HAS
BECOME A BURDEN ON SOCIETY, AS
OPPOSED TO BE THERE TO SERVE AND
PROTECT.
IT HAS DEPARTED FROM THE KEY
PRINCIPLES, ENUNCIATED BY SIR
ROBERT PEEL, THE NINE PRINCIPLES
ENUNCIATED BY SIR ROBERT PEEL IN
1929, WHEN HE FOUNDED MODERN
POLICING.

Steve says LET ME GET KATE TO
WEIGH IN ON THIS.
YOU'VE HEARD, OBVIOUSLY, THE
POLICE SAYING "THIS IS GOING TO
MAKE OUR JOB WAY TOO TOUGH."
OBVIOUSLY, YOU'VE HEARD KINGSLEY
ARTICULATE THE OTHER SIDE.
WHERE IS THE SWEET SPOT IN ALL
OF THIS?

Kate says WELL, I MEAN, POLICING IN
ONTARIO DOES COST MORE PER
CAPITA THAN ANY OTHER PROVINCE.
WE'RE ABOUT 50 dollars MORE PER CAPITA THAN BC.
UM, AND OUR CRIME RATE IS
COMPARABLY A LOT BETTER, SO
THAT'S... THAT'S ONE FIGURE TO
KEEP IN MIND, IS THE COST.
AND SO I KNOW THAT
MUNICIPALITIES ARE LOOKING FOR
WAYS TO CUT COSTS, AND HIRING
PRIVATE SECURITY GUARDS TO DO
SOME OF THE WORK THAT'S NOT CORE
POLICE FUNCTIONS IS SOMETHING
THAT THEY HAVE LOOKED TO DO.
UM, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT
THE ACT, FOR THE FIRST TIME,
DEFINES WHAT CORE POLICE
FUNCTIONS ARE, AND THAT'S
IMPORTANT FOR A LOT OF... A LOT
OF OTHER THINGS, UM...

Steve says DO YOU HAVE A VIEW AS TO WHO
IS MORE RIGHT IN THIS ARGUMENT?

(LAUGHING)

Kate says OH, THAT'S NOT FAIR!

Steve says IT'S TOTALLY NOT FAIR, WHICH
IS WHY I ASKED.

Kate says YEAH, SO I MEAN, I THINK... I
THINK KINGSLEY HAS A GOOD POINT.
WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY IN WHICH WE
GIVE UP CERTAIN RIGHTS, TO BE
POLICED.
AND IT'S CITIZEN... UM, CITIZEN
POLICING, AS ROBERT PEEL SAID,
THE POLICE ARE THE PEOPLE, THE
PEOPLE ARE THE POLICE.
AND SO, WITH THAT, COMES SOME
RESTRICTIONS ON WHAT WE CAN DO,
AS INDIVIDUAL CITIZENS, AND IT
ALSO ADDS ADDED RESPONSIBILITY
FOR POLICE OFFICERS, AND OF
COURSE, THAT COMES IN THE FORM
OF OVERSIGHT.
AND SO, DO I THINK THAT THE
CHANGES IN OVERSIGHT ARE GOING
TO HAMPER WHAT POLICE DO?
I DON'T THINK SO.

Steve says YOU DON'T THINK SO?

Kate says NO.

Steve says OKAY, YOU'VE HEARD SOMEBODY
EXPRESS SOME SKEPTICISM AT YOUR
CONCERNS OF UNDUE OVERSIGHT.
YOU WANT TO COME BACK ON THAT?

Rob says WELL, YOU KNOW, WE CAN SIT
HERE, AND WE CERTAINLY...
ABSOLUTELY, I DO, UH, AND I SAY
THAT RESPECTFULLY.
AND AS I SAID BEFORE, WE'RE NOT
AGAINST OVERSIGHT, WE'RE NOT
AGAINST ACCOUNTABILITY.
YOU KNOW, IT'S INTERESTING, I
HAD TWO HATS HERE.
I WAS AN INTERNAL AFFAIRS
INVESTIGATOR UP UNTIL 2014, SO I
SEE CERTAIN THINGS.
AND WHEN I SPEAK OF THIS, I SEE
THE STRESS THAT'S PUT ON OUR
OFFICERS AROUND THE PROVINCE.
AND WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE
EXPANSION OF THE SPECIAL
INVESTIGATIONS UNIT, FOR
EXAMPLE, I WOULD ARGUE THAT, IN
FACT, THEY NEED TO GET THEIR
HOUSE IN ORDER FIRST BEFORE THEY
DO THAT, AND...

Steve says WHO DOES?

Rob says THE SPECIAL INVESTIGATIONS UNIT.
AND THE ISSUES IN WHERE WE SEE
OUR OFFICERS ACROSS THE PROVINCE
BEING STRESSED TREMENDOUSLY,
ESPECIALLY AROUND MENTAL HEALTH
AND WELL-BEING, IS THE FACT THAT
THEY HAVE TO WAIT UP TO A YEAR
AND A HALF TO FIND OUT WHETHER
THEY ARE GOING TO BE CHARGED
CRIMINALLY OR NOT.
THESE PEOPLE LIVE IN THE
COMMUNITIES, THEIR NAMES ARE
PUBLISHED IN THE PAPERS, THEIR
CHILDREN GO TO SCHOOLS.
WE LIVE IN THOSE COMMUNITIES,
YOU KNOW, AND THIS... THIS ACT,
AS WE SEE IT, AND AS WE'RE
ANALYZING IT, GIVES US GREAT
CAUSE FOR CONCERN ABOUT
STRIPPING AWAY OUR BASIC HUMAN
RIGHTS TO BE POLICE OFFICERS.
AND I DON'T WANT TO BE TREATED...
AND I DON'T WANT TO SEE ANYONE
COME IN, FOR THE NEXT 30 YEARS
OF A CAREER, TREATED LIKE A RAG
DOLL FOR 30 YEARS, AT THE
EXPENSE OF, UH, ALL THESE THINGS
THAT ARE HAPPENING.
BUT PRIVATIZATION, TO YOUR
POINT, THOUGH, IS EXTREMELY
CONCERNING TO US, WITH REGARDS
TO COMMUNITY SAFETY.
AND I JUST CAN'T... I HOPE NOT TO
SEE A DAY WHERE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE
TALKING ABOUT BREAK AND ENTERS
AFTER THE FACT.
AND QUOTE, UNQUOTE, "AFTER THE
FACT," I CAN TELL YOU, AS A 23
YEAR POLICE OFFICER THAT'S BEEN
TO... THERE'S NOTHING... IT'S VERY
INVASIVE, FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE
HAD THEIR HOMES BROKEN INTO.
AND WHO IS TO DETERMINE THAT
THAT PERSON, OR THOSE PEOPLE,
ARE STILL NOT ON THE PROPERTY,
IN THEIR HOMES?
ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU LOOK AT OUR
MODEL, IN THE OPP, WE POLICE 324
MUNICIPALITIES IN THE PROVINCE
OF ONTARIO, WE'RE OUT IN THE
RURAL AREAS.

Steve says OKAY, KINGSLEY, I SEE
YOU THERE AGAIN, AND THEN I WANT
TO HEAR MIKE AFTERWARDS.

Kinglsey says YEAH, YEAH, NO... I HEAR YOU,
I UNDERSTAND YOU, BUT WHAT I
WANT TO LOOK AT IS WHEN WE...
WHEN YOU LOOK AT ALL OF THIS,
A LOT OF POLICING IS SCOPE
CREEP... SCOPE CREEP, THAT'S A
PHENOMENON THAT EXISTS IN A
BUREAUCRACY, WHERE YOU HAVE A
MANDATE TO DO "THIS," AND YOU
GRADUALLY ELBOW YOURSELF OUT,
AND TAKE ON OTHER THINGS WHICH
ARE NOT MANDATED.

Steve says SO, IT'S VALUABLE TO
FOCUS THE MANDATE.

Kinglsey says SO, YOU NEED TO FOCUS IT ON
THE MISSION, AND I THINK THE
BILL INTENDS TO DO THIS.
NOW, THE MINISTER OF COMMUNITY
SAFETY AND CORRECTIONAL
SERVICES, IN UNVEILING THE BILL,
YOU WERE THERE, WE WERE BOTH
THERE.

Rob says WE SAT BESIDE EACH OTHER.

Kingsley says SHE SAID, UM, THAT
WHEN, DESPITE ALL OF THAT, WHEN
YOU CALL 911, A REAL POLICE
OFFICER WILL SHOW UP.
AND I'M SAYING, I HOPE PEOPLE
CAN CALL 911 WITH... WITH A
SURETY THAT THEIR LOVED ONES ARE
NOT GOING TO BE GUNNED DOWN, AS
IN THE CASE OF, UM, YOU KNOW,
ANDREW LOKU, WHO POLICE BROUGHT
FROM THE DON VALLEY PARKWAY AND
TOOK HIM TO HIS APARTMENT AT
CALEDONIA AND EGLINTON, AND
WITHIN 20 MINUTES, HE WAS DEAD.

Steve says THAT GETS INTO POLICE
RESPONDING TO PEOPLE IN CRISIS...

Kingsley says IN CRISIS.

Steve says --WHICH I WANT TO GET TO IN A
MOMENT, BUT I HAVEN'T HEARD FROM
MIKE IN AWHILE, AND WHEN YOU
SAID, "WHEN YOU DIAL 911, YOU
WANT THE EX--"

Kinglsey says YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO FEEL
SAFE, THAT THE POLICE ARE GOING
TO COME, AND THEY ARE GOING TO
BE RATIONAL AND REASONABLE, AND
DEAL WITH THE ISSUE, AND YOUR
LOVED ONES WILL BE STILL ALIVE.

Steve says YES, THAT'S IF YOU LIVE IN
THE DOWNTOWN OF A BIG CITY...
WELL, IN ANY...

Kingsley says ANYWHERE!

Steve says ANYWHERE, IN ANY CITY.
I WANT TO BRING MIKE IN AT
THIS POINT, BECAUSE SOMETIMES
WHEN YOU DIAL 911, 500 MILES
NORTH OF THUNDER BAY IN
NORTHWESTERN ONTARIO, YOU WAIT A
DAY AND A HALF SOMETIMES, FOR AN
OFFICER TO SHOW UP, BECAUSE, UM,
IT'S NOT EXACTLY RAPID RESPONSE
IN A VERY REMOTE PART OF THE
PROVINCE.
HOW IS POLICING DIFFERENT WHERE
YOU'RE FROM?

The caption changes to "Community involvement."

Mike says WELL, I WAS VERY INTERESTED
IN LISTENING TO THE PERSPECTIVES
THAT ARE BEING SHARED HERE.
AT THE SAME TIME, TOO, I'M
SITTING BACK THINKING "WE'RE
ONLY 23 YEARS OLD, AS A POLICE
SERVICE."
AND WE, UH, POLICE A REMOTE
AREA, WHERE ALL THE COMMUNITIES,
YOU HAVE TO FLY IN.
AND WHEN WE USED TO BRING IN NEW
RECRUITS TO... TO GO TO THEIR
POSTINGS, I USED TO USE THE
ANALOGY OF THE FRENCH FOREIGN
LEGION, BECAUSE THAT'S THE BEST
WAY I COULD DESCRIBE IT FOR THEM
TO HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING OF
WHERE THEY'RE GOING.
THIS IS WHERE YOU ARE TODAY,
WE'VE TRAINED YOU.
NOW WE'RE GOING TO SHIP YOU OUT,
AND WE WON'T SEE YOU FOR AWHILE.
BECAUSE THAT'S HOW REMOTE IT IS,
SEE?
AND THIS BILL THAT WE SPEAK OF,
IT'S SOMETHING THAT WAS BADLY
NEEDED.
WE SHOULD HAVE HAD IT IN THE
FIRST PLACE WHEN WE STARTED, BUT
UM, WE WERE OPERATING UNDER A
PROGRAM, WE... IT WAS A SERVICE
THAT DID NOT HAVE ANY... ANY
BACKING WHATSOEVER, ANY, UM,
EVEN ACCOUNTABILITY.

Steve says MIKE, DO YOU THINK THAT THERE
IS A HIGHER LEVEL OF ACCEPTANCE
AMONG INDIGENOUS PEOPLE IN
NORTHWESTERN ONTARIO, FOR
EXAMPLE, WHEN AN INDIGENOUS
POLICE OFFICER WITH NAPS SHOWS
UP, AS OPPOSED TO SOMEONE WHO
LOOKS LIKE HIM OR ME?

Mike says WELL, BACK IN THE... BACK IN
THE REMOTE AREAS, WE ARE MORE
FAMILIAR WITH EACH OTHER,
BECAUSE EACH LOCATION, EACH
REMOTE SITE, ONCE YOU ENTER THE
COMMUNITY, YOU'RE A PART OF THE
FAMILY, SO IT'S... IT'S SOMETHING
THAT'S NORMAL.
BUT FROM A... AN URBAN AREA,
I GUESS, IT MIGHT BE DIFFERENT,
A TOTAL DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE,
AND THAT'S SOMETHING WE'RE NOT
TOO ACCUSTOMED WITH, BECAUSE WE
ARE BUSY DEALING WITH OUR
OWN COMMUNITIES, AND TRYING TO
BUILD A POLICE SERVICE THAT, UH,
THAT WILL BE ABLE TO FUNCTION AS
A FULLY-RESOURCED POLICE SERVICE.

Steve says UNDERSTOOD.
I WANT TO FOLLOW UP NOW,
KINGSLEY, ON WHAT YOU WERE
SAYING A MOMENT AGO, AND THAT IS
TALKING ABOUT POLICE RESPONSES
TO PEOPLE IN CRISIS, AND HERE'S
WHAT A FORMER SUPREME COURT
JUSTICE NAMED FRANKIE IACOBUCCI,
WHO DID A REVIEW OF THE POLICE
SERVICE'S DEALINGS WITH PEOPLE
IN CRISIS A FEW YEARS AGO...
HERE'S WHAT HE HAD TO SAY.
SHELDON, DO YOU WANT TO BRING
THIS GRAPHIC UP?

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Police and people in crisis." The quote reads "There will not be great improvements in police encounters with people in crisis without the participation of agencies and institutions of municipal, provincial and federal governments because, simply put, they are part of the problem and need to be involved in the solution."
Quoted from Frank Iacobucci, "Police encounters with people in crisis." July 2014.

Steve continues OKAY, ROB, START US OFF ON THIS.
HOW WOULD YOU GAUGE, RIGHT NOW,
IN ADVANCE OF THE CHANGES THAT
HAVE BEEN MADE IN THIS NEW SAFER
ONTARIO ACT, THE POLICE SERVICES
OF THIS PROVINCE'S ABILITY TO
RESPOND TO PEOPLE IN CRISIS?

The caption changes to "Concerns and challenges."

Rob says I THINK WE DO A TREMENDOUS JOB.
A LOT OF THE TIMES, WE ONLY HEAR
ABOUT THE TIMES THAT THERE IS A PROBLEM.
OFFICERS ARE DEALING... AND OUR
CIVILIAN MEMBERS OF LAW
ENFORCEMENT, OUR DISPATCHERS,
CALL TAKERS... WE DEAL VERY WELL
WITH PEOPLE IN CRISIS ACROSS
THIS PROVINCE.
AND I KNOW THE ONTARIO POLICE
COLLEGE TEACHES DE-ESCALATION,
WE TEACH THAT AT THE PROVINCIAL
POLICE ACADEMY AS WELL.
I THINK PART OF THE PROBLEM, AND
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THE
HONOURABLE MR. IACOBUCCI, IN THE
SENSE THAT, UH, MORE NEEDS TO BE
DONE WITH MULTIPLE STAKEHOLDERS.
IT SEEMS THAT IN MANY WAYS, THE
POLICE ARE THE DEFAULT.
WE NEED TO BE INVESTING MORE IN
MENTAL HEALTH IN THIS PROVINCE,
TO, UH, TO DEAL WITH THAT, AND
TO SUPPORT PEOPLE THAT ARE IN
CRISIS.
OFFICERS ARE HEAVILY INVOLVED
WITH THESE CALLS ON A DAILY
BASIS, AND MORE TIMES THAN NOT,
WE DEAL QUITE SUCCESSFULLY.

Steve says YOU FEEL YOU'RE MORE... MORE
LIKE A SOCIAL WORKER THAN A
POLICE OFFICER, FROM TIME TO TIME?

Rob says WELL, I THINK BEING A POLICE
OFFICER IS, IN PART, BEING A
SOCIAL WORKER.
HAVING SAID THAT, I'M MORE THAN
WILLING TO HAVE THE... THE DEBATE
OR THE DISCUSSION AROUND CORE
RESPONSIBILITIES OF POLICING.
I THINK WE NEED TO HAVE THAT
DISCUSSION, BUT WE NEED TO
LISTEN TO THE POLICE
ASSOCIATIONS, BECAUSE WE
REPRESENT THE VOICE OF THE FRONT
LINE.

Kinglsey says ON THE OTHER HAND...

Rob says PLEASE.

Kinglsey says IF I WOULD JUMP IN HERE, MY
FIRST CAREER WAS IN MENTAL
HEALTH, I USED TO BE A
PSYCHIATRIC NURSE, SO I'VE
WORKED WITH PEOPLE, IN ALL KINDS
OF SITUATIONS, AND HAVE BEEN...
AND HAVE DE-ESCALATED, AND
MOBILIZED, IMMOBILIZED PEOPLE
WHO ARE DIRECT THREATS AND
DANGERS TO ME.
I HAVE HAD... WORKED WITH CLIENTS
WITH A KNIFE STUCK AT MY THROAT
LIKE THIS, AND I'M CALLING FOR
EMERGENCY ASSISTANCE, FROM... AT
THE HOSPITAL, TO SAY "WE NEED
SOMEBODY TO SEIZE THIS PERSON,"
AND SHE IS SAYING "SAY THE WRONG
WORD," AND I WORK THROUGH THAT,
AND TAKE HER TO THE HOSPITAL.

Steve says SO, WHAT DO YOU KNOW THAT
SOME POLICE OFFICERS DON'T KNOW?

Kinglsey says SO, WHAT WE ARE SAYING IT IS,
THIS WHOLE AREA OF CRISIS
INTERVENTION IS PSYCHOLOGY-BASED.
POLICE... NO INDIVIDUAL, OR
CATEGORY OF INDIVIDUAL OR
PROFESSION CAN BE ALL THINGS TO
ALL PEOPLE.
POLICING, A POLICE OFFICER GETS
12 WEEKS OF TRAINING AT THE
POLICE COLLEGE, AND THEN THEY
ARE GIVEN A BADGE AND A GUN.

Steve says NOT ENOUGH TIME?

Kinglsey says UH, THE MINIMUM TRAINING THAT
ANYONE IN THE HUMAN SERVICE GETS
IS A TWO-YEAR COLLEGE DIPLOMA.

Steve says KATE, LET ME BRING YOU
IN HERE, BECAUSE, OBVIOUSLY,
WHEN THESE SITUATIONS OF POLICE
RESPONDING TO PEOPLE IN CRISIS
GO SOUTH, WE HERE ALL ABOUT IT
AND THE CONSEQUENCES ARE TRAGIC.
IN THE MAIN, IN YOUR VIEW, ARE
THE POLICE ADEQUATELY TRAINED,
AND DO THEY DO A SATISFACTORY
ENOUGH JOB RESPONDING TO THE
LARGE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE IN
CRISIS THAT THEY ENCOUNTER ON
THEIR JOBS?

The caption changes to "Kate Puddister, @KatePuddister."

Kate says FIRST OFF, I WOULD JUST LIKE
TO, KIND OF PULL BACK TO
SOMETHING THAT ROB SAID, IN THAT
IT'S UNFORTUNATE THAT, WHEN
WE'RE DEALING WITH PEOPLE WITH
MENTAL HEALTH DISABILITIES, THAT
THE POLICE ARE THE FIRST PEOPLE
TO BE THERE, BECAUSE THAT'S NOT
THEIR SPECIALTY, DEALING WITH
PEOPLE WITH MENTAL HEALTH
ISSUES, OR PEOPLE IN CRISIS.
SO FIRST, FIRST OF ALL, I THINK
WE NEED TO RETHINK HOW WE TREAT
PEOPLE WITH MENTAL ILLNESS IN
THE FIRST PLACE.
UM, BUT SECONDLY, LOOKING AT THE
CHANGES BEING MADE, I NOTICED
NOWHERE IN THE ACT IS ANYTHING
ABOUT MENTAL HEALTH.
UM, AND SO, CURRENTLY, EACH
FORCE CAN SET ITS OWN POLICIES
AND PROCEDURES.
I KNOW TORONTO POLICE FOLLOWED
THE IACOBUCCI REPORT AND
IMPLEMENTED MANY OF HIS
RECOMMENDATIONS, BUT TO ME, IT
SEEMS LIKE THE... THIS ACT WAS A
MISSED OPPORTUNITY IN SETTING A
PROVINCE-WIDE STANDARD IN HOW WE
DEAL WITH INDIVIDUALS IN MENTAL
HEALTH CRISIS, OR INDIVIDUALS
WITH MENTAL HEALTH DISABILITY.

Steve says IF YOU COULD... IF YOU
COULD HAVE YOUR WAY... THE FIRST
PERSON TO RESPOND TO A PERSON IN
CRISIS, POTENTIALLY ACTING
VIOLENTLY, IN A SITUATION WHERE
MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES ARE CLEARLY
AT PLAY, OUGHT TO BE WHO?

(CHUCKLING)

Kate says I MEAN, IT'S... I THINK THAT
IT'S A HEALTH QUESTION, IT'S A
QUESTION OF HEALTH, A HEALTHCARE
PROFESSIONAL SHOULD BE THERE.

Steve says NOT A POLICE OFFICER.

Kate says CERTAINLY I DON'T WANT TO PUT
PEOPLE AT RISK, UM, BUT POLICE
ARE GOOD AT THEIR JOBS... THAT IS
NOT THEIR EXPERTISE.
THEIR EXPERTISE IS NOT DEALING
WITH PEOPLE WITH MENTAL HEALTH.
CERTAINLY THEY HAVE TO ON A
DAILY BASIS, BUT THAT'S NOT
THEIR CORE FUNCTION.

Steve says MIKE?

The caption changes to "Mike Metatawabin, @NAPS_Police."

Mike says WELL, I'M GLAD YOU'RE
POINTING THAT OUT, BECAUSE, UM,
THE COMMUNITIES THAT WE SERVICE,
THE LEGACY THAT'S LEFT BEHIND,
OR THE LEGACY THAT'S BEEN, UM,
IMPARTED THROUGH ASSIMILATION,
RESIDENTIAL SCHOOLS, SIXTIES
SCOOP, THERE'S A WHOLE SLOUGH OF
ISSUES THAT PEOPLE ARE DEALING
WITH, AND THEY HAVEN'T HAD TIME
TO, UH, TO BE ABLE TO DEAL WITH
THEM, SO THERE'S A LOT OF
UNDERLYING ISSUES ABOUT ANGER,
DEPRESSION, AND A WHOLE GAMUT OF
THINGS, AND THOSE ARE THE THINGS
THAT OUR CONSTABLES CONFRONT,
AND ARE CONFRONTED WITH.
AND THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS I
GOT INVOLVED, AS WELL, WAS ONE
OF MY... ONE OF OUR CONSTABLES IN
OUR COMMUNITY CAME UP TO ME, AND
SHE WAS IN TEARS, SAYING "I
CAN'T FIGHT THIS OFF, I CAN'T
GET OVER THIS," AND AT THE TIME,
THIS WAS BACK IN 1998, ONLY FOUR
YEARS OF POLICE SERVICING THE
COMMUNITY... AS A POLICE SERVICE.
I WAS BLOWN AWAY, LIKE, UM, THIS
WAS A MENTAL HEALTH ISSUE THAT
SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT, AS A
RESULT OF DEALING WITH SOMETHING
THAT SHE WASN'T PREPARED FOR.

Steve says WAS SHE INDIGENOUS, OR
NON-INDIGENOUS?

Mike says SHE WAS INDIGENOUS, SHE WAS
PART OF THE COMMUNITY.

Steve says SHE WAS INDIGENOUS,
AND STILL HAD DIFFICULTY
PROCESSING THE WHOLE THING.

Mike says YEAH, BECAUSE WE HAD NOT
THOUGHT OF THOSE THINGS, WE HAD
NOT PREPARED OUR CONSTABLES FOR
THAT.

Steve says ROB, DO THE CHANGES THAT ARE
PROPOSED IN THIS UPDATED POLICE
SERVICES ACT DO, IN YOUR
JUDGEMENT, A MORE THOROUGH JOB
OF HOLDING POLICE OFFICERS
ACCOUNTABLE WHEN DEALING WITH
PEOPLE IN CRISIS AND IT GOES
SOUTH?

Rob says YOU KNOW, THAT'S UH... YOU
KNOW, I THINK, CLEARLY, AS IT'S
PROPOSED, I THINK THAT THE LEVEL
OF OVERSIGHT AND ACCOUNTABILITY,
AS I SAID, YOU KNOW, WE
CERTAINLY SUPPORTED THE VAST
MAJORITY OF THE RECOMMENDATIONS
BY MR. JUSTICE TULLOCH, WHO I
THINK HAD A TOUGH JOB, AND DID A
GOOD JOB.
IT HAS GONE TO THE POINT OF, YOU
KNOW... YOU KNOW... AND I KNOW
THERE'S NOT NECESSARILY ALWAYS
THE SUPPORT, ALTHOUGH I DO
BELIEVE THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE
CITIZENS IN THE PROVINCE SUPPORT
WHAT WE DO, BUT THE OVERSIGHT
HAS GOTTEN TO THE POINT OF, UH,
YOU KNOW, IT'S CONCERNING FOR
FOLKS THAT ARE PUT INTO VOLATILE
SITUATIONS.
YOU LOOK AT OFFICERS WHO ARE
EXPOSED WITH POST TRAUMATIC
STRESS DISORDER, AND THE THINGS
THAT WE'RE FACING.
YOU LOOK AT OFFICER SUICIDES,
WHICH IS DISPROPORTIONATE TO
EVERYTHING ELSE.
LOOK AT THE THINGS THAT WE'RE
DEALING WITH, AND WHEN YOU'RE
TALKING ABOUT OVERSIGHT GOING TO
A LEVEL, WHICH IN SOME CASES
ISN'T EVEN HUMANLY POSSIBLE TO
BE PERFECT, AND OUR POSITIONS
IS IF THERE IS SOMETHING IN THE
ACT THAT SUPPORTS OUR INDIGENOUS
BROTHER AND SISTERS IN THOSE
COMMUNITIES, THE OPP ARE
INTRICATE IN THOSE COMMUNITIES.
I'VE PERSONALLY WORKED IN
PIKANGIKUM FIRST NATION.
I THINK THAT'S A GREAT THING,
UM, AND IF THERE'S SOMETHING IN
THERE THAT WORKS FOR YOU AND
YOUR PEOPLE AND THOSE
COMMUNITIES, THAT'S GOOD STUFF.
THE STUFF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
SPECIFICALLY APPLIES TO LABOUR
RELATIONS, EMPLOYMENT LAW, AND
ALL THESE OTHER THINGS.
WILL IT... WILL IT BRING US
TOGETHER AND WANT US TO ENGAGE
FURTHER?
WE COULD GET INTO A FULL DEBATE
ON SOME OF THE LEGISLATION
THAT'S COME OUT FROM THE
GOVERNMENT IN THE LAST YEAR, UH,
WHICH REALLY IS SHUTTING DOWN, I
BELIEVE, CONVERSATIONS IN SOME
WAYS.

Steve says HOW DO YOU, KINGSLEY, WANT TO
DEAL WITH THE FACT THAT WHILE
YOU WANT ADDITIONAL OVERSIGHT
DEALING WITH THE POLICE, WHO MAY
MAKE MISTAKES WITH PEOPLE IN
CRISIS, AND COMPARE THAT SET OF
CONCERNS WITH THE SET OF
CONCERNS WITH THE SET OF
CONCERNS ROB JUST RAISED, WHICH
IS HE FEELS HIS OFFICERS ARE
BEING WAY OVERLY PRESSURIZED...
PRESSURED, I GUESS... UM, WITH A
LEVEL OF OVERSIGHT THAT... THAT
IS TOO MUCH ON THEM?

Kinglsey says WELL, WHEN YOU HAVE CERTAIN,
UM... PRACTICES THAT YOU ENGAGE
IN OVER TIME, IT BECOMES THE WAY
OF DOING BUSINESS, AND YOU DON'T
WANT TO SURRENDER ANY OF THAT.

Steve says SO, YOU THINK THEY'VE
GOT SOME BAD HABITS THEY HAVE TO
UNLEARN?

Kinglsey says WELL, PUT IT THIS WAY.
THEY HAVE ACQUIRED A LOT OF BAD
HABITS, LIKE THE BRUTALITY WE
SAW, FOR INSTANCE, JUST OUT IN,
UH, JUST A FEW MONTHS AGO, WHERE
THE SIU ARRESTED A TORONTO COP,
OUT IN WHITBY, FOR BEATING A GUY
TO PULP, BEATING HIS EYE OUT OF
HIS HEAD.
AND THE DURHAM POLICE WERE
CALLED, AND THEY, IN TURN, THREW
HIM ON THE HOOD OF A CAR,
SEARCHED HIM... HIS BROKEN BONES,
HIS EYE HANGING OUT OF HIS HEAD,
AND THEN THEY BANDWAGON HIM WITH
A WHOLE LOT OF CHARGES, ABOUT...
AND THIS TYPE OF THING, AND DID
NOT REPORT IT.
HE... HE WAS OFF DUTY, HE LIVES
OUT THERE, HE, UM... AND THEN,
THERE WAS A COVER-UP BY BOTH THE
DURHAM AND THE TORONTO POLICE,
OF THIS ISSUE.
AND SO IT WAS THE CRIMINAL
DEFENCE LAWYER, THE CIVIL LAWYER
WHO THEY HIRED, THAT BROUGHT IT
TO THE ATTENTION OF THEM.

Steve says NOW... NOW, GOTTA JUMP IN
HERE, BECAUSE THERE ARE ALWAYS
GOING TO BE ANOMALIES, RIGHT?
THERE ARE ALWAYS GOING TO BE...

Kingsley says ABSOLUTELY.

Steve says BAD APPLES IN THE
BARREL.

Kinglsey says SO... ABSOLUTELY, BUT...

Steve says SO I WANT TO MAKE SURE I
UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE...

Kinglsey says WHEN YOU HAVE ONE ROTTEN
APPLE IN THE BARREL, AND YOU
DON'T TAKE IT OUT, EVERY OTHER
APPLE IN THERE IS SUBJECT TO GET ROTTEN.

Steve says DO YOU WANT TO COMMENT
ON THAT METAPHOR?

Rob says THE VAST MAJORITY OF OUR
OFFICERS AND CIVILIANS OF LAW
ENFORCEMENT ARE GREAT PEOPLE,
IT'S THE LAW OF AVERAGES.
AND YOU KNOW WHAT, TO YOUR POINT
THERE ABOUT TAKING THE ROTTEN
APPLE OUT, AS I SAID IN THE
BEGINNING, WE'RE NOT AGAINST
ACCOUNTABILITY, WE'RE NOT
AGAINST OVERSIGHT.
AND IN THAT CASE, I WOULD SAY
THAT THE PROCESS IS WORKING ITS
WAY THROUGH.
I DON'T KNOW ALL THE FACTS AND
DETAILS, I'M NOT PART OF THE
DURHAM REGIONAL POLICE FORCE, OR
THE TORONTO POLICE...

Kinglsey says THAT'S JUST ONE EXAMPLE.

Rob says NO, I UNDERSTAND, BUT
WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT...
EXACTLY, IT'S ONLY ONE EXAMPLE,
BUT WE HAVE THOUSANDS OF
OFFICERS.
I REPRESENT THE LARGEST POLICE
ASSOCIATION STANDALONE IN THE
COUNTRY.
AND WE HAVE THOUSANDS OF
OFFICERS AND CIVILIANS OF LAW
ENFORCEMENT THAT GO OUT THERE
EACH AND EVERY DAY, PUT THEIR
LIVES ON THE LINE IN VIOLENT
SITUATIONS, AND WE CAN SIT HERE
AND TALK ABOUT THE ONE-OFFS AND
STUFF, TO YOUR POINT, STEVE, UH,
OR WE CAN TALK ABOUT THE
THOUSANDS OF SUCCESSFUL OUTCOMES
EACH AND EVERY DAY.
IT'S THE LAW OF AVERAGES.
WE HAVE SOME INCREDIBLE PEOPLE.

Kinglsey says ABSOLUTELY, I WOULD NOT
DISPUTE THAT, AND LET ME SAY
THIS... I HAVE WORKED IN
OCCUPATIONS WHERE I HAVE WORKED
VERY CLOSELY WITH THE POLICE,
AND WHERE MY LIFE DEPENDED ON
WORKING WITH THE POLICE.
I'VE WORKED AS A PROBATION AND
PAROLE OFFICER, I'VE WORKED AS A
CHILD PROTECTIONS OFFICER, I'VE
WORKED AS A CHILD ABUSE
SPECIALIST, ONLY INVESTIGATING
CHILD ABUSE, AND THOSE KIND OF
THINGS WHERE WE DO THE
INTERVIEWS JOINTLY WITH POLICE
OFFICERS, AND THOSE TYPES OF
THINGS, AND SO ON.
AND AS A MATTER OF FACT, I WAS
DEALING WITH A SITUATION IN ROSS
RIVER, YUKON, WHERE I HAD
APPREHENDED THESE KIDS FROM
THESE PARENTS BECAUSE OF AN
ABUSE SITUATION.
AND GOT THEM TO ALCOHOL AND DRUG
TREATMENT, AND GOT THEM BACK,
AND THEN RETURNED THE KIDS TO
THEM, AND WAS THERE ON A
SUPERVISION VISIT WITH THE RCMP,
UH, AND I WAS LOCKED IN THE
HOUSE, AND THE RCMP DROVE AWAY
AND LEFT ME THERE.
(LAUGHING)
SO, I CAN TELL YOU, SO MY LIFE
HAS DEPENDED ON IT.
SO I HAVE NOTHING TO SAY ABOUT
THE POLICE THAT IS NOT FACTUAL.
I'M SAYING THERE ARE GOOD PEOPLE
IN THERE, BUT I CAN TELL YOU
THIS... TO WITHSTAND THE
PRESSURES OF THE PEER GROUP, OR
THE COACH OFFICER, WHEN YOU ARE
A ROOKIE AND YOU'RE ASSIGNED TO
A COACH OFFICER.
AND THAT COACH OFFICER HAS BAD
HABITS, "OH, DO THIS THING."
IF YOU WANT TO BE A COP, YOU DO
WHAT HE DOES, SAY... DOES WHAT HE
says, OTHERWISE YOU WON'T BE THERE.
SO IT... THIS BEHAVIOUR IS
TRANSFERRED TO THE PEOPLE THEY COACH.

Steve says OKAY, I'M JUMPING IN HERE FOR
A SEC BECAUSE WE ARE LITERALLY
DOWN TO OUR LAST MINUTE, AND I
NEED A GOOD POLITICAL SCIENTIST,
WHICH I HAPPEN TO HAVE RIGHT
HERE, TO COMMENT ON THIS.
I WANT TO... IN YOUR JUDGEMENT, I
WANT TO KNOW HOW INFLUENTIAL DO
YOU THINK BLACK ACTION DEFENCE
COMMITTEE, BLACK LIVES MATTER,
THESE OTHER CITIZEN
ORGANIZATIONS HAVE BEEN IN THE
CRAFTING OF WHAT IS NOW THE
SO-CALLED SAFER ONTARIO ACT?

The caption changes to "Public pressure."

Kate says I THINK THEY WERE
INSTRUMENTAL.
I KNOW THAT BLACK LIVES MATTER
WAS CAMPING OUT IN RESPONSE TO
THE ANDREW LOKU SHOOTING, AND
SIU'S NOT RELEASING THE REPORT.
AND, UM, MR. JUSTICE TULLOCH WAS
ASKED TO LOOK INTO SIU ALONG
WITH THE OTHER POLICE OVERSIGHT
BODIES.
I THINK THEY PLAYED A VERY
IMPORTANT ROLE IN BRINGING
PUBLIC ATTENTION TO A VERY
TRAGIC... VERY TRAGIC CASE.
UM, SO I THINK THEY PLAYED A BIG
PART IN IT, AND I'M GLAD TO SEE
THAT MR. JUSTICE TULLOCH, UM,
CONSULTED WITH MANY OF THEM.
HE CONSULTED WITH THOUSANDS OF
PEOPLE, BUT INCLUDED THE KEY
STAKEHOLDERS, SO I THINK THEY DO
PLAY A KEY ROLE HERE.

The caption changes to "Producer: Colin Ellis, @ColinEllis81."

Steve says KATE GETS THE LAST WORD ON
THIS PROGRAM.
THAT'S OUR TIME, EVERYBODY.
I'M GRATEFUL TO ALL OF YOU FOR
COMING INTO TVO TONIGHT AND
HELPING US OUT WITH THIS.
THERE'S MIKE METATAWABIN,
NISHNAWBE ASKI POLICE SERVICE,
NAPS FOR SHORT.
HE'S THE BOARD CHAIR THERE.
AND ROB JAMIESON, WHO IS THE
PRESIDENT OF THE ONTARIO
PROVINCIAL POLICE ASSOCIATION.
AND ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE
TABLE, KATE PUDDISTER, ASSISTANT
PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL SCIENCE,
UNIVERSITY OF GUELPH.
KINGSLEY GILLIAM, THE DIRECTOR
OF COMMUNICATIONS FOR THE BLACK
ACTION DEFENCE COMMITTEE.
THANKS SO MUCH, EVERYBODY.
APPRECIATE YOUR TIME TONIGHT.

MIKE and ROB say THANK YOU.

Watch: Creating A Safer Ontario