Transcript: The Responsibility of Bystanders | Nov 23, 2017

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, pale peach shirt, and striped gray and purple tie.

A caption on screen reads "The responsibility of bystanders. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says WHEN IT COMES TO
SEXUAL HARASSMENT AND PREDATORY
BEHAVIOR BY POWERFUL MEN, WE ARE
LIVING IN HISTORIC TIMES.
NEVER BEFORE HAS THE CURTAIN
BEEN PEELED BACK AS IT HAS BEEN
OVER THE PAST FEW MONTHS.
AND WE'RE LEARNING THAT MUCH OF
THAT ILLEGAL BEHAVIOR HAS BEEN
ENABLED BY CO-WORKERS, OR
ASSOCIATES IN THE WORKPLACE, WHO
TURN A BLIND EYE OR EVEN ENABLE
THAT CONDUCT.
LET'S LOOK INTO THAT ASPECT OF
THE STORY WITH JANICE RUBIN, A
LAWYER WITH THE TORONTO FIRM
RUBIN THOMLINSON.

Janice is in her early forties, with blond hair in a bob. She's wearing a gray pinstripe suit and a white blouse.

Steve continues WE ARE DELIGHTED TO WELCOME YOU
BACK TO TVO.

Janice says THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

Steve says ONE OF THESE DAYS
WE'RE GOING TO HAVE YOU BACK AND
TALK ABOUT SOMETHING PLEASANT.
IT'S NOT TODAY, APPARENTLY.
YOU EMAILED YOUR SUBSCRIBERS
EARLIER THIS YEAR AND YOU GOT
ALMOST 200 RESPONSES FROM THE
REQUEST.
SHELDON, SHALL WE PUT THIS UP
RIGHT NOW?
WE'LL JUST TALK ABOUT SOME OF
WHAT YOU FOUND COMING BACK.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "Harassment in the workplace."

Steve reads data from the slate and says
79 percent OF THE RESPONDENTS HAD
PERSONALLY WITNESSED, HEARD OF,
OR HEARD ABOUT HARASSMENT AND
DISCRIMINATION IN THEIR WORKPLACE.
INTERESTINGLY, 87 percent ELECTED TO DO
SOMETHING ABOUT IT, OR THEY SAID
THEY DID.
OF THAT GROUP, 33 percent DIRECTLY
INTERVENED AND TOLD THE PERSON
TO STOP IT.
AND A LITTLE MORE THAN A QUARTER
TOLD SOMEONE IN MANAGEMENT OR HR
ABOUT IT.
I GUESS I WANT TO START BY JUST
FINDING OUT WHEN YOU GOT THOSE
NUMBERS BACK, INITIAL
IMPRESSIONS?

The caption changes to "Janice Rubin. Rubin Thomlinson."
Then, it changes again to "Sexual harassment in the workplace."

Janice says WELL, OUR INITIAL IMPRESSIONS
WERE THAT WE HAD A HUGE
POTENTIAL, PERHAPS NOT A
SOLUTION TO WORKPLACE HARASSMENT
GENERALLY, BUT A RESOURCE THAT
EMPLOYERS COULD TAP INTO THAT
WAS SOMEWHAT UNDERUTILIZED.
SO ONE WE KNOW WORKPLACE
HARASSMENT, SEXUAL HARASSMENT IN
PARTICULAR, IS PERVASIVE, IT'S
DIFFICULT TO GET AT, IT'S
UNDERREPORTED.
HOW DOES AN EMPLOYER FIX IT IF
THEY DON'T KNOW ABOUT IT?
AND WHAT THOSE RESPONSES TOLD US
IS LOTS OF PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT THE
HARASSMENT WHEN IT'S GOING ON.
IT'S NOT SURPRISING, BUT
CONFIRMED WHAT WE THOUGHT.

Steve says THIS IS SORT OF FROM
YOUR WORLD.

Janice says RIGHT.

Steve says DO YOU HAVE ANY
REASON TO BELIEVE IF YOU TOOK
THE SURVEY SOCIETY-WIDE, YOU
WOULD GET SIMILAR FEEDBACK?

Janice says WELL, WE WOULD PROBABLY HAVE
LOWER NUMBERS IN TERMS OF PEOPLE
WHO FELT SUFFICIENTLY ENABLED TO
COME FORWARD AND REPORT IT.
WE MIGHT HAVE SLIGHTLY LOWER
NUMBERS IN TERMS OF WHO KNEW
ABOUT IT.
BUT, YOU KNOW, ABOUT A MONTH
AGO, THERE WAS AN AMERICAN
SURVEY, I THINK THE WALL STREET
JOURNAL AND NBC, THAT FOUND THAT
I THINK 49, 51 percent, AROUND THE
HALFWAY MARK OF THEM, IN
WORKPLACES KNEW... HAD SEEN
SEXUAL HARASSMENT IN THE
WORKPLACE.
OUR NUMBERS ARE A LITTLE BIT
HIGHER THAN THAT BUT I THINK THE
TAKE-AWAY IS LOTS OF PEOPLE KNOW
ABOUT IT.

Steve says I WAS CERTAINLY
SURPRISED WHEN I SAW THAT 87 percent
ELECTED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
WERE YOU SURPRISED AT THAT?
IT SEEMS LIKE A VERY HIGH NUMBER.

The caption changes to "Janice Rubin, @RubinThomlinson."

Janice says I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY
REFLECTIVE OF WHO WE, AS A FIRM,
WERE ASKING.
THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE
INVOLVED IN EMPLOYEE RELATIONS
OR INTERNAL COUNSEL WHO PERHAPS
FEEL THE OBLIGATION TO ACT A
LITTLE MORE STRONGLY THAN, YOU
KNOW, A TYPICAL COLLEAGUE IN A
WORKPLACE.
BUT IT WAS ENCOURAGING.

Steve says NEARLY FOUR IN TEN
INTERVENING BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT
IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

Janice says THAT WAS VERY TELLING TO US
TOO.
IF WE THINK OF WORKPLACE
BYSTANDERS AS AN UNDERUTILIZED
RESOURCE, HOW DO WE GET THEM TO
ACT?
IT SEEMS THE SURVEY RESULTS AS
WELL AS THE CASE LAW WE'VE BEEN
LOOKING AT, IF YOU CAN PITCH, IF
YOU CAN GET SOMEBODY TO ACT ON
THE BASIS OF EMPATHY, I
EMPATHIZE WITH THE PERSON WHO IS
BEING HARASSED, OR A SENSE OF,
YOU KNOW, JUSTICE IN THE
WORKPLACE, THAT SEEMS TO BE
EFFECTIVE.

Steve says THOSE ARE POWERFUL
VALUES, BUT SO ARE THE GUY'S MY
FRIEND AND I DON'T THINK I CAN
SQUEAL ON HIM.

Janice says YES.

Steve says WHEN THOSE TWO
VALUES COME INTO CLASH, WHAT HAPPENS?

Janice says WELL, I THINK HISTORICALLY
THE DON'T SQUEAL ON HIM OR I
DON'T WANT TO GET INVOLVED OR I
DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO, THESE ARE
ALL ELEMENTS OF WHAT'S CALLED
THE BYSTANDER EFFECT, WHY PEOPLE
DON'T WANT TO INTERVENE, HAS
PREVAILED.
BUT MY OWN VIEW IS THERE'S
SOMETHING FAIRLY SIGNIFICANT
GOING ON IN THE ZEITGEIST.
THERE IS A SHIFT, I THINK, OR
BEGINNING OF A SHIFT, IN TERMS
OF OUR UNDERSTANDING OF
WORKPLACE HARASSMENT, SEXUAL
HARASSMENT IN PARTICULAR, AND I
THINK THE CLIMATE IS RIPE FOR
THE SECOND VALUE TO PREVAIL,
WHICH IS THIS ISN'T RIGHT, THIS
IS NOT THE TYPE OF BEHAVIOUR
THAT'S CONSISTENT WITH THE
WORKPLACE THAT I WANT TO COME...
THAT I WANT TO COME INTO.
AND IF WE HAVE A PROBLEM HERE,
ONE ELEMENT OF THE PROBLEM IS,
IF I DON'T COME FORWARD, SO WHY
SHOULD I?

Steve says CAN I CLARIFY WITH
YOU WHAT THE "THIS" IS IN THIS CASE?
I HAVE HEARD... I MEAN, IT MAY
BE LIKE POTTER STEWART SAYING, I
KNOW IT WHEN I SEE IT, RIGHT?

Janice says YEAH.

Steve says HOW ABOUT REPEATED,
PERSISTENT ATTEMPTS TO ASK
SOMEBODY OUT FOR DINNER, ALL OF
WHICH HAVE BEEN REBUFFED UP
UNTIL NOW?
IS THAT CONSIDERED WORKPLACE
SEXUAL HARASSMENT?

Janice says YEAH, I THINK THAT WOULD BE
CONSIDERED WORKPLACE SEXUAL
HARASSMENT.
THERE IS... THE THINKING IS ONE
ASK IS OKAY AND THEN WHEN THE
ANSWER IS NO, ONCE YOU GO BACK A
SECOND TIME, YOU KNOW, YOU'VE
CROSSED A BOUNDARY.
BUT EVEN THE ONE ASK IN SOME
CIRCUMSTANCES IS REALLY
PROBLEMATIC, BECAUSE IF THE ONE
ASK IS FROM THE CEO...

Steve says RIGHT.

Janice says TO SOMEBODY DOWN THE FOOD
CHAIN, DO YOU REALLY FEEL, YOU
KNOW, FULLY EMPOWERED TO SAY NO?
SO I THINK THAT THERE'S A WHOLE
LINE OF BEHAVIOUR, YOU KNOW, THE
ASKING THAT A WHOLE BUNCH OF
PEOPLE, SENIOR MALE PEOPLE,
SENIOR FEMALE PEOPLE TOO, BUT
PREDOMINANTLY IT'S A MALE VERSUS
FEMALE PHENOMENA, THAT JUST
DON'T GO THERE.

Steve says BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE
HAVE COME UP TO ME AND SAID,
HARVEY WEINSTEIN, WE GET IT.
THAT'S APPALLING PREDATORY
CONDUCT AND THERE'S NO AMBIGUITY
OF ABOUT.
BUT THEN I WAS GIVEN THE EXAMPLE
OF REPEATED INVITATIONS TO
DINNER.
THERE WAS SOME CONFUSION ABOUT
THAT.
IS IT POSSIBLE HERE THAT MANY
MEN IN GOOD FAITH JUST DON'T
KNOW WHERE THE LINE IS ANYMORE?

Janice says I THINK MANY MEN IN GOOD
FAITH DON'T KNOW WHERE THE LINE
IS AND I ALSO THINK MANY WOMEN
DON'T KNOW WHERE THE LINE IS.
THE CONFUSION IS HOW MUCH AM I
SUPPOSED TO PUT UP WITH?
WHAT IS KIND OF THE COST OF
COMING TO WORK HERE?
WHAT SHOULD I NOT SAY?
AND WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE LAW,
IT'S QUITE CLEAR WHAT BEHAVIOURS
ARE THAT CROSS THE LINE.
YOU KNOW, REPEATED SOLICITATION,
OVERLY SOLICITOUS LAW...

Steve says NOBODY KNOWS THE LAW.
THEY MAY KNOW GOOD TASTE BUT NOT THE LAW.

Janice says READ THE NEWSPAPER.
EVERY DAY WE SEE AN EXAMPLE OF
WHAT NOT TO DO.

Steve says IT IS TRUE THESE
DAYS AGAIN.

Janice says THE SOCIAL MEDIA CAMPAIGN
Hashtag METOO.
LOOK AT THE EXAMPLES THERE.

Steve says 70 percent OF THE
ORGANIZATIONS YOU SURVEYED HAD
ANONYMOUS HOTLINES.
IS THAT SOMETHING MAYBE EVERY
ORGANIZATION NEEDS?

Janice says I THINK SO.
WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT LEARNING
ABOUT HARASSMENT THAT'S GONE
UNDERGROUND, YOU NEED A COUPLE
OF DIFFERENT CHANNELS TO
FACILITATE REPORTING.
OBVIOUSLY THE TRADITIONAL
CHANNEL THAT MOST OF US KNOW
ABOUT, YOU KNOW, MAKE A
COMPLAINT, GO TO A SUPERVISOR,
GO TO HR, THAT'S GREAT.
IN FACT IN ONTARIO THAT'S
LEGALLY MANDATED.
BEYOND THAT WHAT WE KNOW IS
THERE IS SUCH FEAR, SUCH
PROFOUND FEAR ABOUT REPORTING
THAT WE HAVE TO CREATE A
SECONDARY CHANNEL AT LEAST THAT
ALLOWS PEOPLE TO REPORT, AND
PARTICULARLY A BYSTANDER, IF
IT'S NOT YOU, THAT ALLOWS A
PERSON TO REPORT SOMETHING
ANONYMOUSLY.
AND THEY ACTUALLY WORK.
THEY ACTUALLY WORK.

Steve says BYSTANDERS I GET ARE
A HUGELY UNDERUTILIZED RESOURCE
IN ENDING THIS PHENOMENON, RIGHT?

Janice says THAT IS OUR THEORY, YES.

Steve says THAT'S THE THEORY.
IF WE CAN DEPUTIZE BYSTANDERS TO
GET INVOLVED AND NOT JUST TURN A
BLIND EYE, WE HAVE A BETTER SHOT
AT ELIMINATING THIS?

Janice says IT'S ANOTHER TOOL.
IN FACT, THERE'S EVIDENCE FROM
CANADIAN WORKPLACES WHERE THAT'S
BEING USED.
SO THE CANADIAN ARMED FORCES IS
A LEADER IN BYSTANDER TRAINING
AS PART OF THEIR EXECUTION OF
OPERATION HONOUR.
THIS WAS THE PROGRAM TO
REMEDIATE A CULTURE THAT WAS
DEEPLY SEXUALIZED AND
PROBLEMATIC.
ONE ELEMENT OF THAT PROGRAM IS
BYSTANDER TRAINING.
AS FAR AS I UNDERSTAND,
EVERYBODY NOW IN THE CANADIAN
ARMED FORCES HAS HAD BYSTANDER
TRAINING AND THE RESULT OF THAT
IS AN INCREASE IN REPORTING.
SO IT WORKS.
WE KNOW FROM THAT IT WORKS.

Steve says THE ONTARIO
GOVERNMENT OF COURSE HAS WEIGHED
IN ON THIS.
THEY DID AN AD CAMPAIGN THAT GOT
A LOT OF PEOPLE TALKING.
LET'S JUST SHOW A LITTLE EXAMPLE
OF THAT FOR FOLKS WHO HAVEN'T
SEEN IT AND WE'LL COME BACK AND
CHAT.
SHELDON, THE CLIP, IF YOU WOULD?

A clip plays. In the clip, a man in his twenties gropes a woman in her twenties at a party, as another man in his twenties films. The woman looks hazy and drunk. Both men turn to the camera.

The one groping the girl says THANKS FOR KEEPING YOUR MOUTH SHUT.

In an office, in daytime, a woman in her thirties works at a computer. A man walks up to her from behind and touches her shoulders. He leans over her. She looks uncomfortable.

He looks at the camera, smiles and says THANKS FOR MINDING YOUR OWN BUSINESS.

In a school corridor, four teenage boys flip through pictures of a girl on a phone.

One of them looks at the camera and says THANKS FOR NOT TELLING MY GIRLFRIEND.

At a bar, a woman stands with a man by the counter.

She turns around and greets someone.

She says HI.

As she turns, the man standing with her pours a powder in her drink, faces the camera and
THANKS FOR NOT TELLING ANYONE.

An announcer says WHEN YOU DO
NOTHING, YOU'RE HELPING HIM.
BUT WHEN YOU DO SOMETHING, YOU HELP HER.

The woman at the bar says THANKS FOR TELLING THE
BARTENDER.

The girl at school says THANKS FOR STOPPING him.

The woman at the office says THANKS FOR TELLING HR.

The drunk girl at the party says THANKS FOR GETTING HELP.

The clip ends.

The caption changes to "tvo.org/theagenda."

Steve says NOW, TO ITS CREDIT,
THE ONTARIO GOVERNMENT HAD THESE
ADS OUT WELL BEFORE THE HARVEY
WEINSTEIN BROKE AND WE HAVE NOW
SEEN AN AVALANCHE OF OTHERS
COMING FORWARD.
HOW EFFECTIVE DO YOU THINK THAT
CAMPAIGN WAS?

Janice says WELL, I THOUGHT THE ADS WERE
FANTASTIC.
I THOUGHT, IN DISPLAYING STUFF
THAT REALLY HAPPENS... AND I CAN
TELL YOU FROM OUR PRACTICE, ALL
OF THOSE EXAMPLES REALLY HAPPEN,
THEY REALLY HAPPEN, AND BY
CONTRASTING WHAT HAPPENS TO...
WITH THE EXAMPLES OF HOW
BYSTANDERS CAN INTERVENE, SO IN
TERMS OF GETTING THE MESSAGE
ACROSS, I THOUGHT THOSE ADS WERE FANTASTIC.

Steve says IN TERMS OF
CREATING, THOUGH, THE KIND OF...
BAD WORD BUT I DON'T KNOW WHAT
ELSE TO SAY... INFRASTRUCTURE IN
PLACE THAT COMPANIES NEED IN
ORDER TO EMPOWER BYSTANDERS TO
DO SOMETHING, WHAT DO WE NEED?

Janice says WELL, PART OF IT IS
INFRASTRUCTURE, BUT I THINK
WHERE WE START FROM IS
LEADERSHIP.
WE HAVE LEADERS OF ORGANIZATIONS
WHO SAY, "THIS BEHAVIOUR IS NOT
TO BE TOLERATED IN OUR
ORGANIZATION."
AND THEN THEY MODEL THAT
BEHAVIOUR.
IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE IF A
LEADER IS COMING FORWARD AND
SAYING, "THIS IS BEHAVIOURAL
EXPECTATION" AND THEIR OWN
BEHAVIOUR DOESN'T ALIGN WITH
THAT AND WE'VE SEEN LOTS AND
LOTS OF EXAMPLES OF THAT.
SO I THINK IT STARTS FROM A VERY
STRONG STATEMENT FROM THE START,
AND IT'S DISSEMINATED THROUGH
THE ORGANIZATION THROUGH CLEAR
POLICIES.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE FOUND
IN OUR SURVEY IS ONLY 50 percent OF
INDIVIDUALS HAD REFERENCE TO
BYSTANDERS IN THEIR SURVEYS.
SO YOU HAVE TO... IT'S NOT
ALWAYS AN INTUITIVE ROLE.
SO YOU'VE GOT TO NAME THEM IN
YOUR POLICIES AND YOU'VE GOT TO
IDENTIFY WHAT THEIR ROLE IS AND
WHERE THEY CAN GO AND WHAT THEY
CAN DO.
WE SAW IN THOSE CLIPS VARIOUS
DIFFERENT INTERVENTIONS THAT
BYSTANDERS CAN EMPLOY.
SO, YOU KNOW, YOU NEED GOOD
LEADERSHIP, POLICY, TRAINING,
EVERYBODY NEEDS TO BE TRAINED IN
TERMS OF WHAT THEIR ROLE IS,
WHERE THEY CAN GO, AND THAT WAY
IT DISSEMINATES THROUGHOUT THE
ORGANIZATION.
SO IT IS A LITTLE BIT OF
INFRASTRUCTURE IN TERMS OF, YOU
KNOW, COMMUNICATING POLICY AND
DELIVERING TRAINING, BUT I THINK
IT'S A MORAL STANCE, REALLY,
FROM THE TOP.

Steve says IF YOU WANT TO
CONSIDER LEADERSHIP, I DON'T
KNOW IF YOU SAW THIS THE OTHER
DAY, I THINK THERE'S A FEMALE
CEO FOR A FINANCIAL INSTITUTION
IN BOSTON WHO DECIDED THAT SHE
WAS GOING TO MOVE FROM THE
CORNER OFFICE AWAY FROM
EVERYBODY AND PUT HER DESK RIGHT
IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROOM
WHERE... YOU KNOW, SHE'S RIGHT
IN THE MIDDLE OF IT NOW SO SHE
CAN KEEP AN EYE ON THINGS.
ADVISABLE?

Janice says THAT'S ONE WAY OF GOING ABOUT IT.
I THINK ONE VULNERABILITY THAT
LEADERS HAVE ON A WHOLE RANGE OF
ISSUES, BUT THIS IN PARTICULAR,
IS THAT PEOPLE DON'T TELL THEM
THINGS.
SO THEY MAY THINK THAT THERE'S
BEEN NO COMPLAINTS.
NOBODY'S TOLD THEM THAT THERE'S
A PROBLEM AND WE'RE GOOD IN AN
ORGANIZATION AS FAR AS THIS
ISSUE IS CONCERNED, AND YET, YOU
KNOW, DEEP IN THAT ORGANIZATION
THERE CAN BE ALL SORTS OF
PROBLEMATIC BEHAVIOUR THAT THEY
DON'T KNOW ABOUT.

Steve says LET'S GO UP TO
30,000 FEET AND TAKE THE
OVERARCHING VIEW OF THINGS.
OVER THE PAST FEW MONTHS, AS WE
SUGGESTED IN THE INTRO, THIS
ISSUE HAS JUST EXPLODED INTO OUR
CONSCIOUSNESS AS NEVER BEFORE.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: @theagenda, TVO.org, Facebook, YouTube, Periscope, Instagram."

Janice says YEAH.

Steve says IS THIS
UNAMBIGUOUSLY IN YOUR VIEW A
GOOD THING?

Janice says I THINK IT IS A GOOD THING.
I DO.
I THINK WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS
ELEMENTS OF A PROBLEM AND, YOU
KNOW, LOOKING AT THIS PROBLEM
MAKES PEOPLE UNCOMFORTABLE.
IT INVOLVES PEOPLE WHO WE LIKE,
WHO PERHAPS NOW WE HAVE
INFORMATION ABOUT THEM THAT WE
DON'T LIKE THEM SO MUCH.
BUT I THINK IT'S A GOOD THING.
AND I THINK IT HELPS US... FOR
THOSE OF US WHO AREN'T WORKING
IN THIS EVERY DAY.
I DO, SO THIS IS NOT SURPRISING
TO ME.
BUT FOR THOSE WHO AREN'T, I
THINK IT'S HELPFUL TO UNDERSTAND
HOW PERVASIVE THIS PROBLEM IS,
HOW PERNICIOUS IT IS.

Steve says IT'S NOT JUST SHOW
BUSINESS.

Janice says IT'S NOT JUST SHOW BUSINESS.
IT'S EVERYWHERE.
WE HAVE STORIES FROM MEDIA, WE
HAVE STORIES FROM POLITICS...

Steve says BUSINESS.

Janice says PROFESSIONAL SERVICES.
IT'S EVERYWHERE.
SO I DO THINK... I THINK IT'S A
GOOD THING.
I THINK WHAT WE NEED TO DO FOR
THOSE OF US WHO ARE WORKING IN
THIS AREA IS REALLY LEVERAGE THE
FACT THAT THE CLIMATE HAS
CHANGED AND DO THE WORK THAT WE
NEED TO DO TO MAKE CHANGE.

Steve says I WONDER, THOUGH,
WHETHER ONE OF THE CONSEQUENCES
OF THIS IS NOW EVERY MAN, EVERY
MAN, IS UNDER SUSPICION BECAUSE
THERE WERE A WHOLE LOT OF PEOPLE
OUT THERE WHO WE NEVER WOULD
HAVE IMAGINED.
SENATOR AL FRANKEN, FOR GOODNESS
SAKES.
IS EVERY MAN UNDER SUSPICION
NOW?
NO, YOU DON'T THINK SO.

Janice says I DON'T THINK EVERY MAN IS
UNDER SUSPICION.
THERE ARE MANY, MANY, MANY GOOD
MEN.
THERE ARE MANY MEN WHO ARE
ALLIES TO WOMEN IN THE
WORKPLACE.
THERE ARE MANY MEN LEADING BY
EXAMPLE OF HOW TO INTERACT WITH
COLLEAGUES RESPECTFULLY...

Steve says HE WOULD HAVE BEEN
ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO I WOULD
HAVE THOUGHT... HE'S A
PROGRESSIVE GUY, CARES ABOUT
WOMEN, CONDUCTS HIMSELF
APPROPRIATELY.
NO.

The caption changes to "Historic times."

Janice says I THINK IT'S A MISTAKE TO USE
THESE BAD EXAMPLES AS TO
GENERALIZE ALL MEN ARE UNDER
SUSPICION.
I THINK THAT WOULD BE A MISTAKE.

Steve says HOW ABOUT ANOTHER
SCENARIO HERE.
YOU ARE A FRIEND... NOT YOU.
SOMEONE'S A FRIEND, AND YOU HAVE
NOW DISCOVERED THAT THIS FRIEND
HAS COMPORTED HIMSELF IN AN
APPALLING FASHION.
GIVE SOME ADVICE TO THE REST OF
US.
DO WE HAVE TO END OUR FRIENDSHIP
WITH THAT PERSON?
WHAT DO WE DO NOW?

Janice says I THINK IT DEPENDS ON WHERE
YOU ARE.
IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A WORK
COLLEAGUE, YOU KNOW, I THINK
THERE ARE DIFFERENT WAYS IN
WHICH TO INTERVENE.
SO, FOR EXAMPLE, ONE TECHNIQUE
FOR BYSTANDERS IS, LET'S SAY YOU
SEE YOUR FRIEND INTERACTING WITH
A FEMALE AND IT'S OFFSIDE.
YOU CAN ACTUALLY REMOVE YOUR
FRIEND.

Steve says WALK RIGHT INTO THAT
SITUATION AND YOU INTERVENE?

Janice says YOU INTERVENE.
THERE'S SOME INTERESTING CASES
INVOLVING FIREFIGHTERS, THERE'S
A GREAT CASE FROM BRAMPTON WHERE
THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED.
SOMEBODY WAS... OVERHEARD A
REALLY PROBLEMATIC CONVERSATION
BETWEEN A SENIOR MALE
FIREFIGHTER AND A MORE JUNIOR
FEMALE, AND HE ACTUALLY
INTERVENED IN THAT SITUATION,
KNOCKED IT OFF AND THEN TOOK THE
GUY AWAY.

Steve says WHAT WAS THE CONSEQUENCE?

Janice says WELL, THE CONSEQUENCE IN THAT
CASE WAS VERY INTERESTING.
THERE WERE TWO MORE BYSTANDER
INTERVENTIONS.
THERE WAS ANONYMOUS REPORT.
SOMEONE VOLUNTARILY REPORTED IT
AND THE GUY WAS TERMINATED.

Steve says THERE WAS A POSITIVE
END TO IT AT THE END OF THE DAY.

Janice says THERE WAS A POSITIVE
DEVELOPMENT AT THE END OF THE DAY.
HE WAS DISCIPLINED, YEAH.

Steve says AGAIN, SINCE ALL
THIS HAPPENED, IT'S AMAZING HOW
MUCH WE TALK ABOUT THIS NOW IN A
WAY WE NEVER DID BEFORE.
I HAVE HAD LOTS OF PEOPLE COME
UP TO ME AND SAY, STEVE, I HAVE
NEVER SEEN THIS HAPPEN IN ANY
WORKPLACE I'VE EVER BEEN IN.
IS THAT A... NOW, GIVEN HOW
PERVASIVE YOU KNOW THIS TO BE,
IS THIS A CASE OF WILFUL
BLINDNESS?
IS THIS A CASE OF MAYBE IT'S NOT
AS PERVASIVE IN SOME WORLDS AS
IT IS IN OTHER WORLDS?
ANY THOUGHTS ON THAT?

Janice says I THINK THERE ARE SOME
WORKPLACES THAT ARE RUN IN SUCH
A WAY THAT THIS TYPE OF
BEHAVIOUR ISN'T PRESENT.
IN THE WORK THAT WE DO, I SAY
IT'S NOT BY ACCIDENT.
THAT WOULD BE BECAUSE THERE'S
GOOD STRONG LEADERSHIP, THERE'S
A STANDARD OF BEHAVIOUR THAT'S
SET OUT, AND PEOPLE ARE HELD TO
BE ACCOUNTABLE TO THAT STANDARD
AND PEOPLE UNDERSTAND HOW IT IS
THAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BEHAVE
WHEN THEY GO TO THE WORKPLACE.
SO I THINK THAT THOSE WORKPLACES
DO EXIST, AND I DON'T THINK THAT
THEY'RE BY ACCIDENT.
BUT I ALSO THINK THAT BECAUSE
THIS TENDS TO GO UNDERGROUND,
AND PERHAPS THERE IS SORT OF AN
UNDERNAMING OF PROBLEMATIC
BEHAVIOUR, YOU KNOW, WE SAW IN
THAT COMMERCIAL, THE CREEPY
SHOULDER RUB.
YOU KNOW, HOW MANY PEOPLE WOULD
UNDERSTAND THAT TO BE SEXUAL
HARASSMENT?
I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW MANY TIMES
AS PART OF OUR INVESTIGATIONS
CREEPY SHOULDER RUB IS THERE.
IT'S A FORM OF SEXUAL
HARASSMENT.
BUT HOW MANY PEOPLE WOULD LABEL
THAT SEXUAL HARASSMENT?
I DON'T KNOW.
IN TERMS OF SAYING "IT'S NOT IN
MY ORGANIZATION," IS IT BECAUSE
THE BEHAVIOUR IS THERE AND
PEOPLE DON'T QUITE UNDERSTAND
WHAT IT IS?

Steve says GOOD POINT.
WHENEVER THERE ARE AN ADVANTAGE
OF COMPLAINTS THAT NOW COME
FORWARD, AS IS HAPPENING NOW,
HOW CONCERNED ARE YOU THAT
SOMEONE, EVEN ONE PERSON, MAY
BEAR FALSE WITNESS?

Janice says MAY BEAR FALSE WITNESS?

Steve says IS THAT A THING?
A WOMAN COMING FORWARD IN AN
EFFORT TO GET REVENGE ON
SOMEBODY WHO HAD DONE HER WRONG
MAKES SOMETHING UP?
IT HASN'T HAPPENED YET THAT WE
CAN TELL BUT HOW WORRIED ARE YOU
ABOUT THAT PHENOMENON IN.

Janice says I THINK IT'S A THING INASMUCH
AS PEOPLE TALK ABOUT IT AS PART
OF THE NARRATIVE AROUND THE
STORY, BUT IN TERMS OF BEING AN
ACTUAL THING, THE PERCENTAGE OF
CASES THAT WE INVESTIGATE WHERE,
YOU KNOW, A COMPLAINANT HAS
COMPLETELY MADE SOMETHING UP FOR
PURPOSES OF REPRISAL OR
RETRIBUTION IS TINY.
I'M TRYING TO THINK IF I'VE EVER
HAD ONE.
WE'VE HAD CASES WHERE PEOPLE'S
RECOLLECTION IS FLAWED OR THE
BEHAVIOUR THAT'S UPSETTING TO
THEM, WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT IN THE
COLD HEART OF DAY, DOESN'T
CONSTITUTE SEXUAL HARASSMENT.
SO NOT EVERY COMPLAINANT WHO
COMES FORWARD THAT WE HAVE
INTERVIEWED HAS A SUCCESSFUL
COMPLAINT.
THAT KIND OF NARRATIVE OUT THERE
IN OUR PRACTICE IS REALLY NOT
THAT PRESENT.
I THINK IT'S OVERSTATED AS PART
OF THE NARRATIVE.

Steve says OKAY.
LET'S FINISH UP ON THIS: DO YOU
HAVE ANY THEORIES AS TO WHY THIS
PHENOMENON IS ALMOST UNIQUELY MALE?

Janice says WELL, OKAY.
WHY IS IT UNIQUELY... FIRST OF
ALL, IT'S NOT UNIQUELY MALE.
IT'S PREDOMINANTLY MALE...

Steve says 99 percent MALE.
FEELS LIKE IT ANYWAY.

Janice says FOUR TIMES AS MANY WOMEN ARE
SEXUALLY HARASSED AT WORK THAN MEN.
YOU KNOW, THERE CERTAINLY ARE
EXAMPLES OF SAME-SEX HARASSMENT.
BECAUSE MEN STILL HAVE MORE
POWER THAN WOMEN IN SOCIETY.
THIS IS, IN THE END, AN ABUSE OF
POWER.
AND WHO ARE PREDOMINANTLY THE
CEOs, THE FACES OF
ORGANIZATIONS, THE PEOPLE WHO
CAN USE THEIR POSITIONS OF
INFLUENCE, YOU KNOW, THE HARVEY
WEINSTEINS?
THEY'RE PREDOMINANTLY MEN.
AND UNTIL WE HAVE MORE WOMEN IN
ROLES OF POWER AND IN ROLES OF
INFLUENCE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING
TO HAVE A TOUGH SLOG HERE.

Steve says SO YOU'RE NOT...
YOU'RE PUTTING THIS UP MOSTLY TO
A POWER IMBALANCE AS OPPOSED TO
THAT'S HOW THEY'RE WIRED, IT'S
IN THE DNA, IT'S A GENETIC THING?

Janice says YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT'S A
DISSERVICE TO MEN.
I THINK IT'S A POWER IMBALANCE
AND I THINK IT'S A POWER
IMBALANCE THAT IS ENABLED IN OUR
CULTURE AND IS ENABLED IN THE
WAY MANY OF OUR WORKPLACES RUN.

The caption changes to "Producer: Steve Paikin, @spaikin."

Steve says WELL, AS I SAID OFF
THE TOP, ONE DAY WE'LL GET YOU
BACK TO TALK ABOUT SOMETHING A
LITTLE MORE PLEASANT.
UNTIL THEN, WE APPRECIATE YOU
SHARING YOUR EXPERTISE WITH US.
THAT'S JANICE RUBIN FROM RUBIN
THOMLINSON.

Watch: The Responsibility of Bystanders