Transcript: The Fate of Residential School Records | Nov 09, 2017

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, spotted gray tie, and a red poppy pin.

A caption on screen reads "The fate of residential school records. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says THE SUPREME COURT OF
CANADA RECENTLY RULED THAT
INDIGENOUS PEOPLE, WHO SUFFERED
HEINOUS ABUSE IN CANADA'S
SO-CALLED INDIAN RESIDENTIAL
SCHOOLS, CAN OPT TO DESTROY THE
TESTIMONY THEY GAVE DURING THE
CLAIMS PROCESS.
IT WAS A UNANIMOUS DECISION THAT
MEANS THOUSANDS OF EYEWITNESS
ACCOUNTS COULD DISAPPEAR OVER
THE NEXT 15 YEARS, RATHER THAN
TAKE THEIR PLACE AS PART OF
CANADA'S OFFICIAL ARCHIVES.
JOINING US NOW TO REFLECT ON THE
SIGNIFICANCE OF THIS DECISION
FOR THE SURVIVORS, AND THE
HISTORICAL RECORD: IN CALGARY,
ALBERTA: KATHLEEN MAHONEY,
SHE'S A PROFESSOR OF LAW AT
THE UNIVERSITY OF CALGARY
WHO REPRESENTED THE ASSEMBLY
OF FIRST NATIONS AT THE
AFOREMENTIONED SUPREME COURT CASE...

Kathleen is in her early sixties, with blond hair in a bob. She's wearing a black jacket over a black blouse.

Steve continues IN WINNIPEG,
MANITOBA: RY MORAN, THAT'S HIM
ON THE RIGHT, DIRECTOR AT THE
NATIONAL CENTRE FOR TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION...

Ry is in his forties, with receding brown hair and a trimmed beard. He's wearing a gray blazer over a white shirt, and a red poppy pin.

Steve continues AND EUGENE ARCAND, FORMER
RESIDENTIAL SCHOOL STUDENT AND
A MEMBER OF THE NATIONAL CENTRE
FOR TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION'S GOVERNING CIRCLE...

Eugene is in his late forties, with a gray mustache. He's wearing glasses, a gray cap, blue shirt, black vest, and a pendant necklace.

Steve continues AND WITH US HERE IN STUDIO:
MIKE CACHAGEE, HE'S A FORMER
RESIDENTIAL SCHOOL STUDENT, AND
A PAST PRESIDENT OF THE NATIONAL
RESIDENTIAL SCHOOL SURVIVORS SOCIETY...

Mike is in his sixties, clean-shaven, with short gray hair. He's wearing glasses, a green shirt, and a red poppy pin.

Steve continues IT'S AN HONOUR TO HAVE ALL OF
YOU ON OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT TO
TACKLE WHAT IS, BOY, A REALLY,
REALLY CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC AND
WE'LL SEE HOW WELL WE DO TRYING
TO GET EVERYBODY'S VIEWS ON THE
RECORD HERE.
LET'S START IN CALGARY, ALBERTA.
KATHLEEN MAHONEY, I WANT TO KNOW
WHAT YOUR REACTION WAS WHEN YOU
FIRST HEARD THE UNANIMOUS
DECISION BY THE SUPREME COURT OF
CANADA THAT WOULD PERMIT THE
DESTROYING OF THE RECORDS OF
THOSE WHO WANT THEM DESTROYED?

The caption changes to "Kathleen Mahoney. University of Calgary."
Then, it changes again to "At first glance."

Kathleen says FIRST OF
ALL, STEVE, I WOULD SAY THAT THE
CHARACTERIZATION OF THIS CASE IS
BETTER DESCRIBED AS BEING ABOUT
CONSENT, OWNERSHIP, AND
SELF-DETERMINATION, AS OPPOSED
TO DESTRUCTION, BECAUSE
DESTRUCTION IS JUST AN OUTCOME
OF THOSE FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES
THAT ARE EMBEDDED IN THE
AGREEMENT.
SO I WAS PARTICIPATING AS A
REPRESENTATIVE OF THE AFN IN THE
NEGOTIATIONS, AND THAT WAS WHAT
THE BARGAIN WAS, WAS THERE WAS
VERY CLEAR AGREEMENT WITH CANADA
THAT THESE DOCUMENTS, ESPECIALLY
THE IAP TESTIMONY AND THE
DECISIONS, WOULD BE UTMOST
CONFIDENTIAL DOCUMENTS BECAUSE
THEY CONTAIN THE DETAILS OF
HORRENDOUS ABUSE THAT ARE
HUMILIATING, EMBARRASSING, ALL
OF THOSE THINGS.
AND IT WAS UP TO THE SURVIVORS
AS TO WHAT THEY WANTED TO DO
WITH THEM.
SO THEIR CONSENT IS FRONT AND
CENTRE IN THIS WHOLE DISPUTE.
AS TO WHETHER OR NOT CANADA GETS
TO DECIDE OR WHETHER OR NOT THE
SURVIVORS GET TO DECIDE AND THE
AGREEMENT SAID THE SURVIVORS AND
THE COURT SAID THE SURVIVORS.
I APPLAUD THAT BECAUSE IT GOES
DOWN THE ROAD OF HUMAN RIGHTS,
SELF-DETERMINATION, AND THE
DIGNITY AND HUMAN RIGHTS OF THE
SURVIVORS THEMSELVES.

Steve says YOU'RE QUITE RIGHT.
WE DO HAVE TO FIGURE OUT WHERE
THE BALANCE OF RESPONSIBILITY
LIES HERE AND WHOSE RIGHTS ARE
SUPREME.
LET ME GET RY MORAN TO COME IN
NEXT AND FOLLOW YOU UP BY ASKING
YOU WHERE YOU BELIEVE THE
BALANCE LIES?

The caption changes to "Ry Moran. National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation."
Then, it changes again to "Parsing privacy concerns."

Ry says WELL, AS I THINK
KATHLEEN HAS SAID, THIS IS A
VERY COMPLICATED CASE, AND
EVERYTHING THAT SHE HAS SAID
ABOUT SELF-DETERMINATION,
INDIGENOUS RIGHTS, HUMAN RIGHTS
IS ABSOLUTELY AT THE CENTRE OF
THIS CASE.
ONE OF THE CHALLENGES THAT WE
HAVE KIND OF UNCOVERED IN THIS
CASE, THOUGH, IS WE'RE NOW 10
YEARS INTO THE PROCESS, AND MANY
SURVIVORS WERE NOT PROVIDED THAT
CHOICE BEFORE.
MANY SURVIVORS HAVE PASSED ON.
THAT HAS LEFT THE COLLECTIVE
GROUP OF ORGANIZATIONS AND
SURVIVORS NOW IN A POSITION OF
TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE
MOST RESPECTFUL, MOST HONOURABLE
THING TO DO IS WITH THESE
RECORDS.
CERTAINLY CONSENT IS PARAMOUNT.
CERTAINLY CONSENT IS A VERY
IMPORTANT ELEMENT OF THIS ENTIRE
DISCUSSION.
THE TRANSCRIPTS ARE ONE OF THOSE
RECORDS.
BUT WE DO NEED TO ASK OURSELVES:
WHAT ABOUT THE DECISIONS THAT
WERE RENDERED?
WHAT ABOUT THOSE DECISIONS THAT
WERE RENDERED BY ADJUDICATORS IN
THE INTERPRETATION OF LAW?
IS THAT THE SAME SURVIVOR
TRANSCRIPT?
IS THAT A DIFFERENT TYPE OF
RECORD THAT'S IMPORTANT FOR THIS
COUNTRY TO UNDERSTAND.

Steve says LET ME FOLLOW UP
WITH THE GENTLEMAN BESIDE YOU.
EUGENE, THE ONUS OF
RESPONSIBILITY IS TO THE
SURVIVORS OR THE OWNER OF THE
HISTORICAL RECORD?
WHAT'S YOUR VIEW?

The caption changes to "Eugene Arcand. Former Residential School Student."

Eugene says FIRST OF
ALL, I'M VERY, I GUESS,
CONFLICTED WITH ALL OF THIS.
I'M VERY HAPPY, AS ARE MOST
SURVIVORS, THAT CONSENT WAS
ACHIEVED.
BUT THE PROCESS IN ACHIEVING
CONSENT WAS A PROCESS OF
REVICTIMIZATION TO INDIAN
RESIDENTIAL SCHOOL SURVIVORS,
AND TO THAT I'M TALKING ABOUT
THE ARGUMENTS PUT FORWARD IN THE
SUPREME COURT THAT DAY WERE
ABOUT PROTECTING OUR PRIVACY...
AND WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE SUMMARY
OF STUDENT-ON-STUDENT ABUSE,
INDICATING THAT IT WAS ONLY IN
THE AREA OF 30 TO 40 PERCENT,
AND THEN YOU HAVE THE CLERGY
ABUSE AND THE STAFF ABUSE OF
STUDENTS, OVER 60 PERCENT.
IT REALLY MAKES ME WONDER
WHETHER OUR PRIVACY WAS A
PRIORITY, OR IS THIS A PROCESS
OF DESTROYING CANADIAN HISTORY?
BECAUSE TOO MANY HAVE PASSED ON
TO PROVIDE CONSENT.

Steve says SO I'M HEARING FROM
YOU, EUGENE, THAT YOU ARE... IT
SOUNDS LIKE YOU'RE SAYING YOU
ARE MORE CONCERNED ABOUT HISTORY
BEING AIR-BRUSHED OUT AS OPPOSED
TO THE RIGHTS OF THOSE WHO ARE
TESTIFYING?
DO I HAVE THAT RIGHT?

Eugene says ABSOLUTELY.
ABSOLUTELY.
ANY TYPE OF ERASING OF HISTORY,
ANY TYPE OF CENSORSHIP OR
SANITIZING OF HISTORY AS IT
RELATES TO INDIAN RESIDENTIAL
SCHOOL SURVIVORS IS PLAIN WRONG,
AND WE'RE SUPPOSEDLY CELEBRATING
150 YEARS.
WE CAN'T ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN IN
2017.
THIS TRUE HISTORY HAS TO BE...
CONTINUE TO BE PRESERVED FOR
GENERATIONS TO COME.

Steve says MIKE CACHAGEE,
YOU'RE HEARING SOME OF THE
COMPLEXITY OF THIS DEBATE ON
THIS PROGRAM ALREADY.
WHERE DO YOU COME DOWN ON IT?

The caption changes to "Mike Cachagee. Former Residential School Student."

Mike says LISTENING TO
BOTH KATHLEEN AND EUGENE... I
HAVE A LOT OF RESPECT FOR BOTH
OF THEM AND THEIR OPINIONS...
BUT YOU'RE GETTING ONE THAT'S
BASED ON LEGALESE AND ANOTHER
ONE COMING FROM THE GRASS ROOTS.
AND I ALWAYS HAVE A TENDENCY AS
A FIRST NATIONS PERSON TO
CONNECT WITH THE GRASS ROOTS
MORE CLOSELY THAN I DO THE
LEGALESE.
AN ELDER ONCE SAID THAT MY
HISTORY IS ON MY LIPS.
OKAY, NOW HAVING TAKEN THAT AND
EXTENDING THAT AND LOOKING BACK
AT THIS WHOLE PROCESS OF THE
INDIAN RESIDENTIAL SCHOOLS, YOU
CAN SEE THE CONTRADICTION IN
THAT.
LIKE, OUR ELDERS SAY, WHEN I
SPEAK, I SPEAK FOR PEOPLE TO
HEAR ME.
WE'RE AN ORAL SOCIETY.
SO WHEN YOU HAVE HISTORY COME
BACK AND REENGINEERING WHO WE
WERE OVER 130 YEARS AND AT THE
END OF IT ALL SAYING, WELL, ONE
OF THE BASIS OF YOUR CULTURE,
THE CORNERSTONE OF THE CULTURE,
WHO YOU ARE, IS YOUR ORAL
HISTORY, WE'RE GOING TO TAKE
EXCEPTION TO THAT NOW.
WHAT SOME PEOPLE HAVE SAID...
AND THE HEARING, I WENT IN THERE
WITH THE SPECIFIC PURPOSE OF
HAVING THAT PRESERVED AND BEING
TOLD THE NEXT GENERATIONS WHAT
WOULD HAPPEN.

Steve says THAT WAS YOUR CHOICE.
FOR THOSE WHO CHOOSE A DIFFERENT
OUTCOME...

Mike says THEN AGAIN, WHEN YOU LOOK
BACK AT THE MASS, YOU'RE LOOKING
BACK AT 37,000, 38,000
TESTIMONIES HERE, HOW MUCH TIME
AND ENERGY WAS TAKEN TO ASK
THOSE INDIVIDUALS, LIKE EUGENE
MENTIONED, WERE REQUESTED TO DO
WITH THEIR RECORDS.
YOU KNOW THAT WHEN YOU LOOK BACK
AT THE RESIDENTIAL SCHOOL
SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT, TO COME
DOWN AND HAVE INDIVIDUAL
CONSULTATION WITH THE
INDIVIDUALS ALL CONCERNED THAT
WE'RE UNDER THE UMBRELLA, VERY,
VERY LITTLE OF THAT HAPPENED.
VERY LITTLE OF THAT HAPPENED.
AND I CHALLENGE ANYONE TO
PRODUCE RECORDS THAT THEY CAN
SHOW THAT THE MASSES WERE
CONSULTED.

Steve says KATHLEEN MAHONEY,
LET ME GET YOU BACK IN...

Kathleen says ONE THING
THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT, MIKE, TO
UNDERSTAND, IS EVERY SINGLE ONE
OF THE 38,762 APPLICANTS THAT
CAME BEFORE THE IAP TO TELL
THEIR STORIES WERE PROMISED THAT
THEIR STORIES WOULD BE HELD IN
UTMOST CONFIDENCE AND EVERYBODY
SIGNED DOCUMENTS TO THAT EFFECT.
NOW, IT'S NOT TO SAY THAT PERSON
CAN'T DISCLOSE, IF THEY WISH...
7,000 PEOPLE HAVE PRESERVED
HISTORY BY COMING FORWARD TO THE
TRC, AND I WAS JUST REVIEWING
THE FOUR VOLUMES YESTERDAY.
IT'S INCREDIBLE DETAIL,
EXTREMELY WELL-WRITTEN ACCOUNT
OF WHAT WENT ON IN THE TRUTH
COMMISSION AND THOSE 7,000
STORIES THAT ARE REFERRED TO IN
THOSE DOCUMENTS.
SO HISTORY HAS BEEN PRESERVED.
WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE,
IT SEEMS TO ME, IS THE
FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLE OF HUMAN
DIGNITY.
WHEN A CHILD IS ABUSED IN THE
NORMAL COURSE OF EVENTS IN A
COURT HEARING, THE PUBLIC NEVER
HAS ACCESS TO THE DETAILS OF HOW
THAT ABUSE OCCURRED BECAUSE IT
IS SO DAMAGING.
IT IS UNDERSTOOD TO BE SO
DAMAGING TO THAT INDIVIDUAL TO
HAVE THAT PUBLICLY DISPLAYED,
THAT KIND OF DETAIL.
SO THE COURTS PRESERVE AND
PROTECT THAT CHILD'S TESTIMONY,
OR ANY OTHER TESTIMONY PERTINENT
TO THE DETAILS OF THAT ABUSE.
SO I ASK MYSELF: WHAT IS TO BE
GAINED TO HAVE THE PRURIENT
DETAILS OF THE ABUSE.
WE KNOW THE ABUSE OCCURRED.
THERE'S BEEN THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE
TALK PUBLICLY ABOUT THEIR ABUSE.
WE KNOW FROM THE APOLOGY, WE
KNOW FROM THE WHOLE RESIDENTIAL
SCHOOL SETTLEMENT, OF WHICH MORE
THAN ALMOST $4 BILLION HAVE BEEN
PAID OUT IN COMPENSATION, WE
KNOW THAT PEOPLE HAVE PROVEN
THAT THEY WERE ABUSED AND I
THINK OF THE 38,000, OVER
80 PERCENT OF CASES WERE
SUCCESSFUL.
SO WE KNOW THAT.
WE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED IN
RESIDENTIAL SCHOOLS...
PROTECTION OF THE INDIVIDUAL.

Steve says LET ME JUMP IN BY
ASKING YOU, THOUGH, TO SPEAK
MORE DIRECTLY IF YOU CAN TO BOTH
EUGENE AND MIKE'S POINT, THAT
THERE IS A CONCERN... PRIVACY,
OF COURSE.
BUT WHAT ABOUT, YOU KNOW,
ANOTHER CONCERN, THAT SOMEHOW
HISTORY IS BEING AIR-BRUSHED
AWAY HERE BECAUSE OF THE
POTENTIAL DESTRUCTION OF THE
RECORD?

Kathleen says YES.
I THINK I ADDRESSED THAT POINT,
STEVE, IN THE FACT THAT 7,000
PEOPLE HAVE COME BEFORE...

Steve says BUT THAT'S 7,000 OUT
OF 38,000.
THAT'S 7,000 OUT OF 38,000.

Kathleen says THAT'S RIGHT.

Steve says WHICH IS A FRACTION.

The caption changes to "Determining historical value."

Kathleen says THAT'S RIGHT.
OF THOSE 38,000, WE KNOW HOW
MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL
IN THEIR CLAIMS, OF CLAIMING
THIS ABUSE.
SO WE KNOW IT HAPPENED.
THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT IT
HAPPENED.
AND THERE WILL NEVER BE ANY
DOUBT THAT IT HAPPENED.
THE QUESTION HERE IS: TO WHAT
LEVEL OF DETAIL IS THE PUBLIC...
SHOULD THE PUBLIC BE ALLOWED
TO... AGAINST THE CONSENT OF THE
VICTIMS, FIND OUT ALL THE
HORRIBLE DETAILS OF WHAT
HAPPENED TO THEM.
AND SO CONSENT IS, LIKE I SAID,
FRONT AND CENTRE HERE.
EVERYBODY IS FREE TO MAKE... TO
ARCHIVE THEIR DOCUMENTS, IF THEY
WISH.
EVERY SINGLE SURVIVOR.
BUT THE KEY HERE IS THEIR
SELF-DETERMINATION, THEIR
CONSENT.
AND IF THEY WISH TO DO THAT, IT
WILL BE PRESERVED.

Steve says LET ME GET MIKE
CACHAGEE'S FEEDBACK ON THAT.
YOU HEARD HER POINT...

Mike says AGAIN, BEING
VERY RESPECTFUL TO PROFESSOR
MAHONEY WITH RESPECT TO A CHILD
BEING ABUSED, OUR CONCERN IS THE
PERPETRATORS.
IN THE PROCESS OF DESTROYING
THOSE TESTIMONIES OF THOSE THAT
WERE ABUSED, THE ACTIONS OF THE
PERPETRATORS AND THEIR ROLES
THAT THEY PLAYED IN ALL THIS
ABUSE ARE ALSO DESTROYED.

Steve says EUGENE, IS THAT A
CONCERN OF YOURS AS WELL?

Eugene says OH, IT
DEFINITELY IS A CONCERN.
ALSO, ALONG WITH THAT CONCERN IS
PROFESSOR MAHONEY JUST TALKED
ABOUT THE 4 BILLION dollars THAT WAS
DISHED OUT TO IAP CLAIMANTS.
WELL, LET ME TELL YOU THIS.
I'VE BEEN COAST TO COAST TO
COAST WITH SURVIVORS AND I DON'T
KNOW OF ONE RESIDENTIAL SCHOOL
SURVIVOR WHO HAS BECOME
EXTREMELY RICH OFF OF THIS
PROCESS.
BUT I KNOW MANY LAWYERS AND LAW
FIRMS AND COMMUNICATIONS
COMPANIES WHO HAVE BECOME
EXTREMELY RICH OFF THE BACKS OF
OUR MISERY.
SO WHEN WE LOOK AT CONSENT, YES,
THAT WAS A GOOD PROCESS.
THE PROCESS OF GOING TO THE
SUPREME COURT WAS A PROCESS OF
REVICTIMIZATION BECAUSE IT
WASN'T ABOUT OUR PRIVACY.
IT WAS ABOUT THE PRIVACY OF THE
60 PERCENT PLUS THAT WERE
INVOLVED AS PERPETRATORS, AND
FROM THE START OF THIS
AGREEMENT, WE WERE TOLD WE WOULD
GET THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT.
AND WHEN WE HAVE THE
PERPETRATORS ADMINISTERING THIS
AGREEMENT RIGHT UP THROUGH TODAY
THROUGH THE IAP PROCESS, WE HAVE
SOME PROBLEMS THAT DON'T... ARE
NOT CONSISTENT WITH THE WORK OF
THE TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION
COMMISSION.
THERE IS NO RECONCILIATION HERE
AT THIS POINT.
AND IT CONTINUES TO BE
PERPETRATED BY THOSE IN
POSITIONS OF POWER.

Steve says EUGENE, JUST FOR THE
RECORD, I'M SURE PROFESSOR
MAHONEY WASN'T SUGGESTING THAT
SOMEHOW THE VICTIMS ARE GETTING
RICH OFF THE BACKS OF CANADIAN
TAXPAYERS ON THIS...

Kathleen says NO.
CANADA WAS THE PERPETRATOR AND
THE ONE WANTING TO HAVE THESE
DOCUMENTS DISCLOSED TO THE
PUBLIC.
I DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT ARGUMENT
AT ALL.

Eugene says RECENTLY
THERE WAS A PRESS RELEASE GIVEN
OUT BY THE IAP SECRETARIAT IN
REGARDS TO DIFFERENT AMOUNTS OF
COMPENSATION OR MONIES THAT WERE
DISTRIBUTED THROUGH THE PROCESS.
NOT ONCE IN THAT PRESS RELEASE
WAS THERE ANY INDICATION OF
THOSE THAT PROFITED FROM THIS
AGREEMENT, NO MATTER HOW YOU
LOOK AT IT, IT WASN'T DONE.
SO THE PERCEPTION OF THE
CANADIAN PUBLIC OUT THERE IS
THAT, OKAY, RESIDENTIAL SCHOOL
SURVIVORS, MOVE ON.
YOU HAVE BEEN COMPENSATED.
WELL, IT HASN'T BEEN
COMPENSATION TO THE EFFECT OF
ANY TYPE OF HEALING.
IT'S BEEN A PROCESS OF
REVICTIMIZATION.

Kathleen says WITH
RESPECT, EUGENE, THOSE ARE
COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ISSUES FROM
WHAT WAS BEFORE THE COURT WITH
RESPECT TO WHETHER OR NOT
INDIVIDUAL CLAIMANTS SHOULD HAVE
THEIR RECORDS MADE PUBLIC
WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT.

Ry says I THINK ONE OF
THE THINGS WE CAN REFLECT ON
HERE AS WELL, WE HAVE TO
ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THERE IS A
TENSION IN THIS CASE AND IT IS
AN UNRESOLVED TENSION, THAT
TENSION BETWEEN COLLECTIVE AND
INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS.
SO WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE
INDIVIDUAL'S RIGHT TO PRIVACY,
ABSOLUTELY THAT IS CENTRAL IN
THIS CASE.
THERE'S NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT.
THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT
SURVIVORS WERE PROMISED ABSOLUTE
CONFIDENTIALITY.
BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WAS
DISCUSSED AT LENGTH IN THIS CASE
WAS WHETHER OR NOT THAT
CONFIDENTIALITY COULD BE
MAINTAINED WHILE STILL RETAINING
THE COLLECTIVE RIGHT TO KNOW.
THE SAD REALITY ABOUT THIS
HISTORY OF ABUSE THAT HAS BEEN
INFLICTED ON INDIGENOUS PEOPLES
FROM COAST TO COAST TO COAST IS
GENERATIONS WILL BE FEELING THE
EFFECTS OF THAT ABUSE FOR YEARS
TO COME.
AND THIS IS NOT GOING TO BE
RESOLVED IN 10, 15, 20 YEARS.
INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES HAVE BEEN
GREATLY IMPACTED BY THIS.
SO THE QUESTION IS, YOU KNOW,
COULD THE DOCUMENTS HAVE BEEN
REDACTED?
COULD THEY HAVE BEEN BLACKED
OUT?
COULD THEY HAVE BEEN SEALED FOR
50 YEARS?
COULD THEY HAVE BEEN SEALED FOR
100 YEARS.
THERE'S THAT REAL TENSION
BETWEEN COLLECTIVE RIGHTS AND
INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS.
WHEN WE LOOK AT THINGS THROUGH
THE NARROW LENS OF INDIVIDUAL
RIGHTS TO PRIVACY, THERE IS THAT
COLLECTIVE RIGHT TO KNOW THAT IS
PLACED IN PERIL WITH THIS.
AND THAT'S A CHALLENGING ELEMENT
TO THIS CASE.
I THINK THE OTHER THING TOO
THAT'S FUNDAMENTAL IS, WHAT
ABOUT THE ADMINISTRATION OF THE
PROCESS?
WHAT ABOUT THE 4 BILLION dollars?
WERE SURVIVORS TREATED FAIRLY BY
THE PROCESS?
AND WE KNOW, WHEN WE WERE WITH
THE TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION
COMMISSION, WE HEARD A LOT OF
CRITICISM ABOUT THE IAP PROCESS
ITSELF BECAUSE IT WAS VERY
INVASIVE.
WE HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THAT OUR
ACTIONS HERE IN THIS COUNTRY MAY
BE EXAMINED, OUGHT TO BE
EXAMINED BY OTHER NATIONS IN THE
WORLD, ATTEMPTING TO ADDRESS
MASS HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS.
HOW DID THIS PROCESS WORK?
WAS IT FAIR?
WAS IT EFFECTIVE FOR SURVIVORS?
AS I LOSE MY EARPIECE HERE.
WERE SURVIVORS TREATED
RESPECTFULLY IN THE PROCESS?
WAS THE COMPENSATION DOLED OUT
IN AN APPROPRIATE WAY?
WE REALLY DON'T HAVE THAT
ABILITY TO SCRUTINIZE THE
PROCESS EN MASSE NOW, AND THAT'S
WHERE THERE IS THIS DISTINCTION
BETWEEN, SAY, THE DECISIONS THAT
WERE RENDERED BY ADJUDICATORS
OPERATING ON BEHALF OF THE
CROWN, ADMINISTERING DECISIONS
THAT WOULD RESULT IN THE
DISBURSEMENT OF PUBLIC FUNDS...

Kathleen says THE
ADJUDICATORS WERE INDEPENDENT, RY.
THAT WAS A CRITICAL PART OF THE
WHOLE PROCESS.
CANADA WASN'T ADMINISTERING THE IAP...

Ry says LET'S NOT CALL IT THE CROWN.
STILL, RESPONSIBLE FOR RENDERING
DECISIONS THAT WERE COLLECTIVELY
BY THE PARTIES TO THE SETTLEMENT
AGREEMENT TO BE IN THE NATIONAL
INTERESTS.
YES, THEY WERE ISOLATED FROM
CANADA, BUT STILL RESPONSIBLE
FOR DECIDING ON THE VERACITY OF
THE TESTIMONY PROVIDED BY
SURVIVORS.

Steve says LET ME JUMP IN HERE,
IF I CAN?
LET ME JUMP IN.
WE HAVE A LOT OF GROUND TO COVER
AND I'VE GOT A RESIDENTIAL
SCHOOL SURVIVOR SITTING RIGHT
BESIDE ME, SO I WANT TO TALK TO
HIM.
OKAY, MIKE.
WHERE DID YOU GO TO RESIDENTIAL
SCHOOL?

Mike says I WENT TO THREE.
CHAPLEAU, MOOSE DACTORY, AND
SHINGWAUK IN SAULT STE. MARIE.
I WAS FOUR AND A HALF WHEN I
WENT IN AND GOT OUT WHEN I WAS
16, JUST TURNING 17.

Steve says YOU WENT 12 YEARS.

Mike says 12 and a half YEARS.

Steve says HOW WAS IT?

The caption changes to "Personal pains."

A grainy black and white picture shows a class of boys and girls posing outside a school building in uniforms.

Mike says NOT VERY NICE.
NOT VERY NICE.
SUBSEQUENT TO MY EXPOSURE TO
RESIDENTIAL SCHOOL, THE WORK
THAT I'VE BEEN DOING FOR THE
LAST 15 OR 20 YEARS HAS BEEN
WORKING DIRECTLY WITH SURVIVORS.
THE ORGANIZATION THAT I WORK
FOR, THE CHILDREN OF SHINGWAUK
AND THE ONES THAT TOOK UP AFTER.
WE WORK DIRECTLY IN THE IAP
ENVIRONMENT.
WE WENT RIGHT INTO THOSE
PARTICULAR HEARINGS.
WE HEARD... WE HAVE A STAFF OF
14 OR 16 PEOPLE...

Steve says DID YOU GO THROUGH
THAT YOURSELF?

Mike says I WENT THROUGH IT MYSELF.
BUT AS A SUPPORT PERSON.
WE SAT IN ON EVERY HEARING THAT
WAS OCCURRING IN THE PROVINCE OF
ONTARIO, AND WE HEARD ALL THE
HORROR STORIES.
WE WERE IN THE TRENCHES, UNDER
DIRECT FIRE, FOR A BETTER WAY OF
PUTTING IT.
WHAT HAPPENED AT THE END OF THE
DAY AND THIS IS WHERE I HAVE
CONFUSION WITH THE FACTS AND
WHEN PEOPLE SPEAK.
AFTER GOING THROUGH 6 OR 7 HOURS
OF TESTIMONY, RELIVING PROBABLY
SOME OF THE MOST HORRIBLE
EXPERIENCES YOU'VE HAD AS A
CHILD, AND AT THE END OF THE DAY
THERE'S A STATEMENT MADE OR A
QUESTION ASKED OF THE SURVIVORS:
WHAT DO YOU WANT DONE WITH YOUR
RECORDS?
AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME AND
AFTER WHAT THEY'VE ENDURED AND
WHAT THEY'VE BEEN EXPOSED TO,
THE LAST THING THEY'RE WORRIED
ABOUT, STEVE, IS WHAT'S GOING TO
HAPPEN TO THOSE RECORDS.

Steve says YOU DON'T THINK
THEY'RE IN A POSITION TO MAKE A
GOOD DECISION...

Mike says AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME.
A LOT OF THEM LEFT WITH THEIR
FAMILIES NEVER, EVER KNOWING.
AND THESE PARTICULAR CASES I
FULLY SUPPORT THEM... FOR THEIR
RECORDS BEING DESTROYED IF THEY
SO CHOOSE.
BUT ALSO BECAUSE A LOT OF THE
HORRORS, PROBABLY THE MOST
HORRIFIC STORIES, AND YOU
WOULDN'T GET THAT AT A TRC
EVENT.
YOU GET THEM, LIKE I SAY...

Steve says WHERE DID YOU DO
YOUR HEARING?

Mike says IN SAULT STE. MARIE.

Steve says IN WHAT KIND OF A PLACE?

Mike says IN A HOTEL.
WHEN PEOPLE SIGN THE AGREEMENT
OF CONFIDENTIAL... SEE, AT THAT
TIME I HAD AN 83-YEAR-OLD WOMAN
FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HER LIFE
TALKING ABOUT HER EXPERIENCE.
SO WHEN YOU LOOK BACK... YOU
WEIGH ALL THOSE FACTORS, I WAS
PROBABLY MOST SUBJECTIVE AND
OBJECTIVE BECAUSE OF THE
EXPERIENCE THAT I'VE HAD,
ENDURING MAYBE A THOUSAND
HEARINGS.

Steve says LET ME FIND FROM
EUGENE SIMILAR INFORMATION.
WHICH RESIDENTIAL SCHOOLS WERE
YOU IN, EUGENE?

Eugene says I WAS IN
ST. MICHAEL'S SCHOOL AND
DUCK LAKE, FROM 1958 TO 1969.

Steve says WHICH PROVINCE IS
THAT IN?

Eugene says IN SASKATCHEWAN.

Black and white pictures show a large brick building complex from different angles.

Steve says IN SASKATCHEWAN.
HOW WOULD YOU CHARACTERIZE YOUR
EXPERIENCE THERE?

Eugene says IT WAS NOT VERY NICE.
I WOULDN'T WISH IT ON ANY CHILD
THAT'S ALIVE TODAY.

Steve says YOU WERE ABUSED?

Eugene says YEAH, THAT'S... LET ME
CLARIFY SOMETHING.

Steve says SURE.

Eugene says I WENT THROUGH THE IAP
PROCESS MYSELF.
IT WAS A HORRENDOUS EXPERIENCE,
RIGHT FROM DISCOVERY ON THROUGH
THE SYSTEM.
I'M OKAY WITH THE SETTLEMENT
THAT I RECEIVED.
WHAT I'M NOT OKAY WITH IS MANY,
MANY OF OUR FELLOW RESIDENTIAL
SCHOOL SURVIVORS WHO DID NOT
HAVE A SETTLEMENT THAT WAS, I
GUESS, FAIR SETTLEMENT.

Steve says COMMENSURATE TO
THEIR SUFFERING, IN OTHER WORDS?

Eugene says EXACTLY.
AND THERE WERE MANY... THAT'S
THE THING WITH THIS INDEPENDENT
PROCESS OF THE IAP SECRETARIAT.
THERE WAS VERY LITTLE ROOM FOR
ADVOCACY AND THERE WAS VERY
LITTLE ROOM FOR APPEALS, AND THE
APPEALS THAT DID GO FORWARD, AND
I HAVE ONE SITTING RIGHT IN
FRONT OF ME, IT WAS LIKE THE
SYSTEM WAS THERE TO PROTECT THAT
SYSTEM.
AND THERE WAS A HUGE NUMBER OF
PEOPLE BEING REJECTED,
DISMISSED.
THERE WAS CHERRY-PICKING GOING
ON AMONGST THE LAW SOCIETIES AND
THE LAW FIRMS WHO DECIDED THAT
YOU WEREN'T ABUSED ENOUGH FOR
THEM TO RETAIN THEIR 15 percent AND TO
BE ABLE TO MAKE A GOOD BUCK OFF
OF OUR NEGATIVE EXPERIENCES...

Steve says EUGENE, YOU RAISED THIS.
CAN YOU TELL ME WHETHER YOU
THINK TOO MANY LAWYERS GOT RICH
OFF OF THIS AT THE EXPENSE OF
THE VICTIMS INVOLVED?

Eugene says OH, DEFINITELY, DEFINITELY.
I HAVE A DOCUMENT IN FRONT OF ME
THAT WAS... THAT WAS FORWARDED
FROM THE LAW SOCIETY IN REGARDS
TO ANY TYPE OF POSITIVE ADVOCACY
THAT CAME FROM THE LAW SOCIETY
IN REGARDS TO WHAT WAS GOING ON
IN SASKATCHEWAN.
THERE HAS BEEN NO... IT'S LIKE,
DO WHAT YOU WANT UNTIL YOU GET
CAUGHT.
AND NOW THE PERSON WHO FORWARDED
THAT LETTER TO THE SASKATCHEWAN
LAW SOCIETY HAS BEEN I GUESS ON
THE WEB...

Steve says WELL, WE HEARD THE
ONE LAWYER...

Eugene says IN A REAL NEGATIVE WAY.

Steve says WE HEARD ONE LAWYER
HAD TO PAY 2 MILLION dollars BACK
BECAUSE OF OVERBILLING.

Eugene says THERE'S MORE THAN 50 LAWYERS
WHO HAD TO PAY MONEY BACK AND
THERE WAS NO PUBLIC
IDENTIFICATION OF WHO THEY ARE.
WHEN YOU'RE TRAVELLING AND YOU
SEE AND EXPERIENCE THE
REVICTIMIZATION THAT OCCURRED TO
THESE PEOPLE WHO WENT THROUGH
DISCOVERY, SPILLED THEIR GUTS,
AND THEN WENT THROUGH A PROCESS
AND WERE CALLED LIARS AND MAKING
UP STORIES TIME AND TIME AND
TIME AGAIN, AND TODAY ARE LIVING
AT A SUBSISTENCE LEVEL, ADDICTED
MORE TO DRUGS AND ALCOHOL THAN
THEY WENT THROUGH THE PROCESS,
THIS IS THE MISERY MY PEOPLE ARE
LIVING THROUGH AND NOBODY WANTS
TO REVIEW THOSE CASES.

Steve says EUGENE, STAND BY ONE SECOND.
MIKE CACHAGEE WANTS IN THERE.

Mike says WHEN YOU
TALK ABOUT RECORDS, THERE'S A
SCHOOL HERE IN ONTARIO, UP ON
THE JAMES BAY COAST, OKAY, FORT
ALBANY, ST. ANNE'S, THEY'VE BEEN
STRUGGLING FOR YEARS.
BEFORE THE RESIDENTIAL SCHOOL
SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT OCCURRED,
THERE WAS AN INVESTIGATION BY
THE O.P.P. AND THERE WERE
RECORDS RETAINED AND CANADA HAD
THOSE RECORDS AND THEY'VE BEEN
FIGHTING SINCE THAT TIME TO GET
ACCESS TO THOSE RECORDS.
SO WHEN WE HEAR ABOUT
DESTRUCTION OF RECORDS OR
SECRECY AND ALL THAT...

Steve says YOU GET CONCERNED.

Mike says WE GET CONCERNED, OKAY?
THE OTHER THING, WHEN YOU TALK
ABOUT THE SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE SETTLEMENT
AGREEMENT, YOU CAN SIT DOWN AND
READ IT, EVERY PLACE ALONG THE
SYSTEM WHERE THERE'S A DOLLAR
INVOLVED, YOU'LL FIND LAWYERS.
AND YOU JUST FOLLOW THE DOLLARS
TO THE AGREEMENT, YOU FIND
DOLLARS.
I QUESTION, LIKE, YOU DON'T GO
TO THE SUPREME COURT FOR 500 dollars.
WHO PAID FOR THE MONEY... WHO
HAD THE MONEY AND RESOURCES TO
TAKE THIS CASE ALL THE WAY UP TO
THE SUPREME COURT OF CANADA TO
GET THIS DECISION?
AND HAVING HAD THAT DECISION,
ONCE THAT DECISION HAS BEEN
RENDERED, ARE THERE ANY
RESOURCES LEFT TO CONTACT THE
SURVIVORS THAT MAY WANT OR MAY
NOT WISH TO HAVE THEIR RECORDS
DESTROYED?
AGAIN, YOU SEE, AGAIN, IF THAT
HAPPENS, STEVE, THEN WHO IS
COMPROMISED?
IT'S THE SURVIVORS.

Steve says KATHLEEN MAHONEY, I
HEAR YOU TRYING TO GET IN.

Kathleen says I JUST
WANTED TO MAKE A FEW THINGS
CLEAR ABOUT THIS DEBATE, BECAUSE
THE IAP RECORDS, WHICH IS THE
SUBJECT MATTER OF THIS
DISCUSSION, AND WHETHER OR NOT
THEY SHOULD BE MADE PUBLIC OR
WHETHER OR NOT THE WISHES OF THE
CLAIMANTS SHOULD BE RESPECTED.
SOME CLAIMANTS MAY WISH THEM TO
BE MADE PUBLIC, OTHERS MAY NOT.
THE DISCLOSURE OF THOSE RECORDS
WOULD NOT ANSWER THE QUESTIONS
THAT EUGENE AND MIKE ARE
RAISING.
THOSE ARE SEPARATE QUESTIONS
ABOUT THE PROCESS, AND THEY
CERTAINLY HAVE VERY VALID POINTS
TO MAKE.
THE PROCESS ITSELF ALLOWS MANY
LEVELS OF APPEAL, AND... LIKE
THE QUESTION MIKE WAS JUST
TALKING ABOUT, DOCUMENTS.
THOSE ARE SEPARATE... THAT WAS A
SEPARATE ISSUE WITH RESPECT TO
WHETHER CANADA SHOULD PRODUCE
DOCUMENTS ABOUT ST. ANNE SCHOOL.
THAT HAS GONE THROUGH THE
COURTS.
BECAUSE YOU CAN GO FROM THE
ADJUDICATOR, YOU CAN GO TO A
FIRST REVIEW, A SECOND REVIEW,
AND THEN YOU CAN GO TO THE
COURTS.
AND THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENED.
THERE'S JUDGES THAT HAVE BEEN
ASSIGNED TO HEAR THESE ULTIMATE
APPEALS.
AND IN MANY CASES, MOST CASES,
THEY'VE BEEN DECIDED IN FAVOUR
OF THE CLAIMANTS.
BUT IT IS A PROCESS.
AND FOR SURE IT'S A... PROCESSES
SUCH AS THIS ARE DIFFICULT AND
COMPLEX, BUT THERE HAS BEEN
AVENUES OF APPEAL.
PEOPLE HAVEN'T BEEN SHUT DOWN
WITHOUT A HEARING, IN MOST
CASES.
IN SOME CASES THE INITIAL
THRESHOLD REQUIREMENTS WEREN'T
MET.
BUT THEY'RE THE VAST MINORITY.
THE VAST MAJORITY IN THIS
SETTLEMENT... THERE'S NEVER BEEN
A SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT WHERE SO
MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN
SUCCESSFUL.
IN THE COMMON EXPERIENCE, FOR
EXAMPLE, OVER 85 percent OF THE
APPLICANTS WERE SUCCESSFUL.
IN THE IAP, WHICH WAS MORE
COMPLEX BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE TO
PROVE WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM ON
THE BALANCE OF PROBABILITIES,
EVEN THOUGH THIS HAPPENED
DECADES AND DECADES AGO, THE
VAST MAJORITY OF THOSE PEOPLE
WERE SUCCESSFUL IN THEIR CLAIMS.
SO, YES, THERE'S SOME THAT
WEREN'T SUCCESSFUL AND, YES,
THERE'S BEEN PROBLEMS.
YES, THERE'S BEEN PROBLEMS WITH
LAWYERS.
MYSELF, I WAS A WHISTLEBLOWER
TOO ABOUT SOME LAWYER ACTIVITY
THAT I THOUGHT WAS EGREGIOUS AND
IT WAS FOUND TO BE EGREGIOUS.
AGAIN, I THINK THE VAST MAJORITY
OF LEGAL COUNSEL HAVE BEEN
HONOURABLE, THEY'VE TREATED
THEIR CLIENTS WITH RESPECT, AND
I THINK FOR THE MOST PART PEOPLE
ARE VERY HAPPY.
BUT I AGREE WITH EUGENE AND
MIKE, THERE ARE PROBLEMS.
BUT I DON'T THINK THOSE PROBLEMS
WILL BE RESOLVED BY FORCING
CLAIMANTS, AGAINST THEIR WILL,
TO HAVE THEIR SPECIFIC PRIVATE
STORIES REVEALED TO THE PUBLIC.

Steve says YOU'RE QUITE RIGHT,
PROFESSOR.
WE HAD ATTEMPTED TO GET THIS
GROUP TOGETHER BECAUSE WE WANTED
TO DISCUSS THE ISSUES OF PRIVACY
AROUND TESTIMONY.
DURING THE COURSE OF THAT
CONVERSATION, IT HAS BECOME, I
GUESS, CLEAR THAT CERTAINLY A
COUPLE OF THE GUESTS ON THIS
PROGRAM DON'T THINK THAT THE
PROCESS, THAT THE INDEPENDENT
ASSESSMENT PROCESS, WAS AS
KOSHER AS IT OUGHT TO HAVE BEEN.
SO, YES, WE HAVE GONE OFF THE
PATH HERE A LITTLE BIT.
I WILL TAKE YOUR ADMONITION TO
HEART AND TRY TO GET US BACK ON
THE PATH NOW THAT YOU RESPONDED
TO THOSE CRITICISMS.
WHAT DO WE DO NOW THAT, AND, RY,
I'LL BRING YOU IN AT THIS POINT...

Eugene says STEVE, I
WANT TO INTERFERE HERE.
I WANT TO CLARIFY SOMETHING.

Steve says PLEASE DO.

Eugene says I HAVE A PICTURE HERE.
YES, YOU CAN SEE IT.
32 KIDS IN THIS PICTURE.

Eugene holds up a black and white picture of about three dozen children in a crop field.

Steve says OKAY.

Eugene says ONLY TEN OF US ARE ALIVE.
THIS WAS TAKEN IN 1959.
IN THIS PICTURE, I KNOW WHO
ABUSED WHO ON STUDENT-ON-STUDENT
ABUSE.
IN THIS PICTURE I KNOW WHICH
MEMBERS OF THE CLERGY ABUSED MY
FELLOW STUDENTS, MY CLASSMATES.
I KNOW WHICH MEMBERS OF THE
STAFF ABUSED WHO.
AMONGST US WHO ARE STILL ALIVE,
THE TEN OF US, HAVE WAY MORE
SECRETS THAN IAP WILL EVER KNOW
IN TERMS OF SUPPOSEDLY
PROTECTING OUR PRIVACY.
WE'VE LIVED WITH THE DYSFUNCTION
AND THESE FEUDS IN OUR
COMMUNITIES CAUSED BY WHAT
HAPPENED IN THESE INSTITUTIONS
FOR DECADES.
AND IT'S IMPORTANT FOR CANADA TO
KNOW THAT, DON'T DO THIS UNDER
THE GUISE OF PROTECTING US
BECAUSE THAT'S SIMPLY NOT TRUE.

Kathleen says I DON'T
DISAGREE WITH EUGENE AT ALL.
THERE'S BEEN PEOPLE THAT FELT
THEY SHOULD HAVE GOT
COMPENSATION THAT DIDN'T.
THEY'VE GONE THROUGH THE REVIEW
PROCESS AND THEY'RE NOT HAPPY
WITH THE OUTCOME.
WHETHER THOSE CASES SHOULD BE
OPENED UP FOR FURTHER REVIEW...
THE PROCESS ALLOWED FOR SEVERAL
LEVELS OF APPEAL, AND, YOU KNOW,
THERE'S AT SOME POINT, I GUESS
SOME WOULD SAY, THE PROCESS HAS
TO END.
THE THING IS, ABOUT FILING
STORIES... THAT PEOPLE CAN FILE
THOSE STORIES TOO.
THE RESEARCH CENTRE THAT
MR. MORAN IS IN CHARGE OF HAS
THE MANDATE TO ACCEPT STORIES IN
PERPETUITY FROM SURVIVORS OR
THEIR DESCENDANTS AND TO TALK
ABOUT HOW THE RESIDENTIAL
SCHOOLS AFFECTED THEM.
THAT IS OPEN.
THAT'S NEVER... THAT DOOR IS
NEVER GOING TO BE CLOSED.
ON THE POINT OF PERPETRATORS'
NAMES THAT WAS RAISED, AND I
THINK THIS NEEDS CLARIFICATION
TOO, AND THAT PERPETRATORS'
NAMES WOULD NEVER BE DISCLOSED,
WHETHER THE CLAIMANTS WOULD HAVE
WON THIS ISSUE IN COURT OR NOT,
BECAUSE, YOU SEE, THEY WOULD
ONLY BE DISCLOSED IF THEY'VE
BEEN FOUND GUILTY BEYOND A
REASONABLE DOUBT IN A CRIMINAL
COURT.
THEN THEIR NAMES CAN BE
DISCLOSED.
I'VE HAD CASES MYSELF WHERE MY
CLIENTS WERE SURE OF THE NAME,
THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE SURE OF
THE NAME OF THE PERPETRATOR,
THEY KNOW THEY WERE ABUSED AND
THEY WERE FOUND TO BE ABUSED,
BUT THEY GOT THE NAME WRONG.
AND WHEN THEY WERE SHOWN THE
PHOTOGRAPH, THEY SAID, OH, NO,
THAT'S NOT HIM.
THIS ONE IS OVER HERE.
SO YOUNG CHILDREN DON'T
NECESSARILY REMEMBER THE EXACT
NAMES OF WHO WAS THEIR
PERPETRATOR.
SO THERE'S THOSE KIND OF
PROTECTIONS TOO THAT WERE BUILT
INTO THE SYSTEM, SO THAT EVEN IF
RECORDS WERE DISCLOSED AGAINST
CLAIMANTS' PERMISSION, THE NAMES
OF THE PERPETRATORS WOULD NOT BE
DISCLOSED IN ANY EVENT, IN ANY
RECORDS.
BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THE PRIVACY
LAWS REQUIRE, UNLESS SOMEONE HAS
BEEN PROVEN TO BE A PERPETRATOR
BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT, THOSE
NAMES WOULD NEVER BE DISCLOSED.

Steve says I HAVEN'T HEARD FROM
RY MORAN IN A WHILE AND I WANT
TO GET HIM BACK IN HERE.
RY, CAN YOU TELL US, YOU ARE IN
CHARGE OF THE NATIONAL CENTRE
FOR TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION.
WHERE EXACTLY IN WINNIPEG IS THAT?

Ry says IT'S LOCATED ON
THE UNIVERSITY OF MANITOBA
CAMPUS.
THAT'S WHERE WE'RE HOSTED THERE,
YEAH.

Steve says VERY GOOD.
TELL US, HAVE ANY RECORDS OF
TESTIMONY FROM THIS ASSESSMENT
PROCESS, HAVE ANY OF THOSE
RECORDS YET BEEN DESTROYED?

The caption changes to "What now?"

Ry says OKAY.
I THINK THERE'S A LOT THAT WE'VE
TALKED ABOUT, THERE'S A LOT THAT
WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT.
IT'S IMPORTANT FOR THE PUBLIC TO
RECOGNIZE THAT, YES, RECORDS
HAVE BEEN DESTROYED IN MULTIPLE
WAYS ALREADY.
EVERYBODY WHO HAS PASSED AWAY
HAS HAD THEIR CHOICE REMOVED TO
HAVE THEIR RECORD TRANSMITTED TO
FUTURE GENERATIONS WHICH WOULD
BE IN ACCORDANCE WITH...
THOSE RECORDS ARE EFFECTIVELY
GONE.
WHETHER IT'S TWO YEARS FROM NOW
OR 15 YEARS FROM NOW.
WHAT'S ALSO IMPORTANT TO
RECOGNIZE IS THE IAP SECRETARIAT
HAS BEEN ORDERED TO BE THE ONLY
AGENCY TO HOLD A COPY OF THOSE
RECORDS.
THAT MEANS THAT THE GOVERNMENT
OF CANADA, WHICH HOLDS A FULL
AND COMPLETE SET OF THOSE
RECORDS, HAS BEEN ORDERED TO
DESTROY THOSE RECORDS NOW, AS
WITH ALL THE CHURCHES WHO ALSO
HOLD PARTIALLY REDACTED VERSIONS
OF THOSE RECORDS AS WELL.
SO THE RECORD DESTRUCTION IS
HAPPENING AS WE SPEAK.

Steve says WHAT'S YOUR VIEW OF THAT?

Ry says I THINK IT'S JUST REFLECTIVE
OF THE FACT THAT DESTRUCTION IS
NOT THIS THING THAT'S WAY DOWN
THE ROAD, IT'S HAPPENING RIGHT
NOW.
WE ARE ACTIVELY LOSING HISTORY,
AND WE'VE ALREADY LOST A LOT OF
HISTORY.
WHEN WE TAKE A STEP BACK AND WE
THINK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, I THINK
THE POINT THAT MIKE RAISED IS
THIS OPPORTUNITY THAT WE HAD TO
KIND OF HAVE THAT SOBER SECOND
THOUGHT ABOUT THE PROCESS
ITSELF, SURVIVORS ABSOLUTELY HAD
THEIR GUTS RIPPED OUT IN THOSE
ROOMS.
I MEAN, I'VE TALKED TO MY
FRIENDS, AND IT WAS A VERY, VERY
DIFFICULT PROCESS.
EVEN IF THE CHOICE WAS PROVIDED
THEN, WAS THAT A FULL INFORMED
CHOICE?
AND WHAT IS OUR RESPONSIBILITY
AS A SOCIETY TO TAKE A STEP BACK
AND NOW SAY, OKAY, NOW WE ARE
WHERE WE ARE.
WE'RE FIVE YEARS, TEN YEARS DOWN
THIS PROCESS OF HEALING AND
RECONCILIATION.
WHAT IS THE ESSENTIAL
INFORMATION THAT WE NEED IN
ORDER TO ENSURE THAT THIS
PROCESS OF HEALING AND
RECONCILIATION CONTINUES?
CENTRAL IN THIS IS THAT
RECOGNITION, AND I THINK MIKE
FLAGGED THIS CORRECTLY AS WELL,
THE PROCESS ITSELF WAS SO
HARMFUL AND SO DIFFICULT FOR
SURVIVORS, IT WAS SIMPLY
IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO TELL
THEIR STORY AGAIN TO ANYBODY.
SO WE DID TALK TO 7,000 PEOPLE
AT THE TRC.
NOT ALL OF THOSE WERE SURVIVORS.
MANY OF THOSE WERE
INTERGENERATIONAL SURVIVORS WHO
WERE TALKING TO US ABOUT THE
HARMS THAT THEY CARRY BASED ON
WHAT THEIR PARENTS OR EVEN
GRANDPARENTS WENT THROUGH.
THAT MEANS THAT THERE WAS A
NECESSARY KIND OF GAP THAT HAS
PROTECTED US AS A SOCIETY FROM
THE HARSHEST STORIES.
AND THOSE HARSH STORIES ARE
EXCEPTIONALLY HARSH.
THE TENSION THAT HAS ALWAYS
EXISTED IN THIS CASE IS HOW
WILLING ARE WE TO (a) PROTECT
THE CONFIDENTIALITY OF SURVIVORS
THROUGH REDACTION, THROUGH
SEALING THE RECORDS, WHATEVER IT
MAY BE, VERSUS FACING THOSE HARD
TRUTHS.
THE MATERIAL CONTAINED IN THOSE
IAP RECORDS SECOND TO NONE IS
THE RECORD OF THE WORST ABUSE.
I THINK WE HAVE TO RECOGNIZE
THAT, OF THE 38,000 PEOPLE THAT
WENT THROUGH THE PROCESS, 38,000
AND CHANGE, ABOUT 50 percent OF THOSE
PEOPLE EXPERIENCED THE HIGHEST
LEVELS OF HARMS AND THE MOST
SEVERE FORMS OF ABUSE.
AND CANADIANS NEED TO KNOW JUST
HOW HARSH THIS WAS SO WE CAN
UNDERSTAND THIS IN THE AGGREGATE
BUT WE'RE NEVER GOING TO
UNDERSTAND IT IN THE DETAIL.

Steve says TO THAT END... LET
ME JUMP IN HERE.
MIKE, I WANT TO GET YOUR VIEW ON
THIS.
WE HAVE SEEN WITH OTHER EXAMPLES
OF HISTORIC ATROCITIES, IT CAN
SOMETIMES BE HELPFUL TO HAVE AN
ACTUAL, PHYSICAL SPACE THAT
PEOPLE CAN VISIT, THAT PEOPLE
CAN STUDY AT.
I'M THINKING RIGHT NOW, FOR
EXAMPLE, CONCENTRATION CAMPS IN
EASTERN EUROPE WHERE, IF YOU
WERE A STUDENT OF THE HOLOCAUST
OR YOU WANTED TO EXPLORE MORE
ABOUT THAT, YOU'VE GOT THOSE
PLACES THERE TO GO TO.
THE RESIDENTIAL SCHOOLS, I MEAN,
THEY'RE ALMOST ALL GONE NOW, RIGHT?

The caption changes to "Make room for history."

Mike says THEY ARE.
THERE'S A FEW OF THEM.
WE HAVE THE ONE IN SAULT STE.
MARIE WHERE THE UNIVERSITY IS
SITUATED.
YOU KNOW, JUST TO PICK UP, RY.
IF YOU GO BACK AND LOOK AT FIRST
NATIONS PEOPLE BEING EXPOSED TO
THE RESIDENTIAL SCHOOL, THAT'S A
HISTORY OF 135-PLUS YEARS, OKAY?
YOU TAKE A SEGMENT OF SOCIETY
AND YOU PUT THEM THROUGH 135
YEARS OF SOCIAL REENGINEERING
AND THE END PRODUCT...

Steve says YOU CAN UNDERSTAND
WHAT THE RESULTS ARE.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: @theagenda, TVO.org, Facebook, YouTube, Periscope, Instagram."

Mike says AND THE END PRODUCT IS THESE
PEOPLE THAT LOSE THEIR IDENTITY,
LOST THEIR LANGUAGE, AND LOST...

Steve says THE PUBLIC'S
UNDERSTANDING OF THIS ISSUE IF...

The caption changes to "tvo.org/theagenda."

Mike says EXACTLY.
SO WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO THEN IS
LOOK AT THE CONNECTING FACTORS.
LIKE, I ALWAYS USED TO TELL THE
STUDENTS WHEN I WAS TEACHING.
WE DIDN'T WAKE UP ON TUESDAY AS
FIRST NATIONS PEOPLE AND DECIDE
TO BE DYSFUNCTIONAL.
THERE'S A HISTORY TO THAT.
AND ONE OF THE GREATEST
CONTRIBUTING FACTORS AND WHAT'S
HAPPENING IN OUR SOCIETIES TODAY
IS THE RESIDENTIAL SCHOOLS.
WE HAVE 10-YEAR-OLDS COMMITTING
SUICIDE FOR GOD'S SAKE,
12-YEAR-OLDS COMMITTING SUICIDE.
SO A LOT OF THE DYSFUNCTIONAL
BEHAVIOUR IN OUR COMMUNITIES ARE
LEARNED BEHAVIOURS AS A RESULT
OF WHAT HAPPENED AT THE SCHOOLS,
AND LIKE RY SAID, SOME OF THE
MOST HORRIFIC THINGS THAT
HAPPENED HAVE TO DEAL WITH
SEXUALITY AND PHYSICAL ABUSE.

The caption changes to "Producer: Harrison Lowman, @harrisonlowman."

Steve says MIKE, FORGIVE ME.
I HAVE TO TO JUMP IN HERE 'CAUSE
TONIGHT THE CLOCK IS REALLY OUR
ENEMY. WE'RE PLUM OUT OF TIME.
I WANT TO THANK KATHLEEN
MAHONEY, RY MORAN, EUGENE
ARCAND, AND MIKE CACHAGEE FOR
COMING ON OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT
AND HAVING WHAT IS, OBVIOUSLY,
A CONTROVERSIAL AND DIFFICULT
DISCUSSION MANY MORE OF WHICH WE
WILL HAVE TO HAVE IN THE DAYS,
MONTHS, AND YEARS AHEAD.
THANK YOU SO MUCH EVERYBODY FOR
COMING ON TVO TONIGHT.

All the guests say THANK YOU.

Watch: The Fate of Residential School Records