Transcript: Rethinking the Suburbs | Oct 24, 2017

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, blue shirt, and striped blue tie.

A caption on screen reads "Rethinking the suburbs. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says SOME SEE THEM AS
IDYLLIC MIDDLE CLASS
COMMUNITIES; OTHERS, AS
RETROGRADE URBAN SPRAWL.
HOWEVER YOU THINK ABOUT THEM,
THE SUBURBS HAVE EVOLVED WELL
BEYOND ANY 1950S-ERA STEREOTYPE
OF LARGELY RESIDENTIAL HAVENS.
AND THAT'S GOT RESIDENTS AND
URBAN PLANNERS RE-EVALUATING HOW
TO MAKE THEM WORK BETTER FOR
EVERYONE.
JOINING US NOW FOR MORE:
IN WATERLOO, ONTARIO:
MARKUS MOOS, PROFESSOR IN THE
SCHOOL OF PLANNING AT THE
UNIVERSITY OF WATERLOO AND
CO-EDITOR OF "STILL DETACHED AND
SUBDIVIDED? SUBURBAN WAYS OF
LIVING IN 21ST-CENTURY NORTH AMERICA."

Markus is in his forties, clean-shaven, with short-cropped brown hair. He's wearing glasses, a white shirt, and a striped blue tie.
A picture of the book appears briefly on screen. The cover features a colourful aerial shot of a suburban neighbourhood.

Steve continues AND HERE IN OUR STUDIO:
CRYSTAL LEGACY, SENIOR LECTURER
IN URBAN PLANNING AT THE
UNIVERSITY OF MELBOURNE IN
AUSTRALIA...

Crystal is in her forties, with shoulder-length wavy brown hair. She's wearing glasses, a black blazer and a gray shirt.

Steve continues AND ROGER KEIL, YORK RESEARCH
CHAIR IN GLOBAL SUBURBAN STUDIES
AT YORK UNIVERSITY, AND AUTHOR
OF THE FORTHCOMING "SUBURBAN
PLANET: MAKING THE WORLD URBAN
FROM THE OUTSIDE IN."

Roger is in his fifties, clean-shaven, with short white hair. He's wearing round glasses, a gray suit, blue shirt, and blue tie.
A picture of the book appears briefly on screen. The cover features a stylized drawing of a skyline against a green background.

Steve continues SO GOOD TO HAVE YOU TWO.
YOU HAVEN'T BEEN HERE IN A LONG
TIME, ROGER.
NICE TO SEE YOU AGAIN.
YOUR FIRST TIME HERE.

Crystal says IT IS, THANK YOU.

Steve says YOU LIVE IN AUSTRALIA,
BUT YOU'RE ORIGINALLY FROM
ONTARIO.

Crystal says I GREW UP IN BRANTFORD,
ONTARIO.

Steve says YOU'RE IN AUSTRALIA NOW.

Crystal says I'VE LIVED IN AUSTRALIA THE
LAST 12 YEARS.

Steve says MARKUS, NICE TO HAVE
YOU FROM WATERLOO, ONTARIO AS
WELL.
LET'S HAVE A FACT FILE TO START
US OFF TO GIVE US A FOUNDATION
FOR OUR DISCUSSION.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "Canada: A suburban nation. 2006-2011."

Steve reads data from the slate and says
WE ARE APPARENTLY A SUBURBAN
NATION WITH TWO-THIRDS OF
CANADIANS LIVING IN SUBURBS.
IN OUR LARGEST METROPOLITAN
AREAS, SUBURBAN RESIDENTS MAKE
UP MORE THAN 80 percent OF THE TOTAL
POPULATION.
IN TORONTO, 88 percent OF TOTAL
POPULATION GROWTH BETWEEN THE
YEARS 2006 AND 2011 HAPPENED IN
THE SUBURBS.
IN OTTAWA-GATINEAU, THAT FIGURE
IS 96 percent OF TOTAL POPULATION
GROWTH HAPPENING IN THE SUBURBS.
THAT ACCORDING TO SUBURBAN
NATION.
ROGER, GET US STARTED HERE.
IN MOST URBAN CORES IN CANADA
YOU SEE MASSIVE GROWTH HAPPENING
IN THOSE CORES, CONDOMINIUMS
EVERYWHERE, NEW TOWNHOUSES AND
SO ON, AND YET... HAVE I GOT
THIS RIGHT?...
THE SUBURBS ARE GROWING EVEN
FASTER THAN THAT?

The caption changes to "Roger Keil. York University."
Then, it changes again to "Putting the urban in the suburban?"

Roger says YES, THEY ARE
GROWING IN RELATIVE TERMS, IN
MOST OF THE CORE CITIES, THE
AMALGAMATED CITY OF TORONTO, THE
EXCEPTION IS WHAT WE CALL CONDO
LAND WHERE THERE HAS BEEN A
CONSIDERABLE INCREASE IN
RELATIVE TERMS, BUT IN ABSOLUTE
TERMS, THE SUBURBS WAY OUTWEIGH
THE GROWTH IN THE CORE CITY.

Steve says SO WE ARE GOING TO
HAVE TO RE-EVALUATE, AND I THINK
THAT'S WHAT THIS PROGRAM IS FOR,
OUR NOTIONS OF SPRAWL, SINGLE
FAMILY HOMES, MASSIVE FIVE-CAR
GARAGES, TIDY SUBDIVISIONS
OUTSIDE CITY CORES.
THAT'S THE STEREOTYPE OF
SUBURBS.
HOW ACCURATE IS THAT TODAY?

The caption changes to "Crystal Legacy. University of Melbourne."

Crystal says I THINK
YOU'RE SPOT-ON.
THE OTHER THING I WOULD ADD TO
THAT LIST IS CAR DEPENDENCY.
IN AUSTRALIA, WHERE I UNDERTAKE
MOST OF MY RESEARCH, ALTHOUGH
OFTEN COMPARING WITH CANADIAN
CITIES, WE ALSO TALK ABOUT
TRANSPORT DISADVANTAGE.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE ARE
CONCERNED ABOUT IN OUR SUBURBS
IN AUSTRALIAN CITIES AND I'M
SURE IT'S TRUE HERE IN CANADIAN
CITIES IS THE LACK OF CHOICE IN
TERMS OF OUR ABILITY TO GET
AROUND THE CITY.

Steve says SO THERE IS OR THERE
IS NOT SORT OF MORE DIVERSITY IN
SUBURBAN LIFE THAN WE THOUGHT
FROM SAY 50, 60 YEARS AGO.

Crystal says I WOULD
AGREE WITH THAT, YES.

Steve says THERE IS.

Crystal says I WOULD THINK SO.

Steve says MARKUS, IN YOUR BOOK
YOU POINT OUT THAT SUBURBS COME
IN MANY SHAPES AND SIZES.
WE'RE GOING TO GO THROUGH THREE
GRAPHICS HERE AND YOU TAKE US
THROUGH IT.
FOR EXAMPLE, HIGH-RISE SUBURBS.
WHAT'S THE STORY THERE?

A drawing of cars and buildings pops up.

Markus says YES.
YOU KNOW, ESPECIALLY IN CANADIAN
SUBURBS IN THE LARGE CITIES LIKE
TORONTO AND MONTREAL, WE'VE HAD
HIGH-RISES IN THE SUBURBS SINCE
THE 1970s.
MANY OF THESE WERE BUILT AS
AFFORDABLE HOUSING.
NOW THEY ARE ACTUALLY, IN SOME
CASES, REMAIN SOME OF THE FEW
AFFORDABLE RENTAL HOUSING THAT
WE HAVE IN OUR CITIES.
SO HIGH-RISE SUBURBS, YOU KNOW,
THOSE TOWERS THAT ARE UP TO 20
AND SOMETIMES MORE STOREYS TALL
THAT YOU SEE NOT IN THE DOWNTOWN
BUT PAST THE 401 OR AT LEAST
WITHIN THE 401 RANGE.

Steve says LET'S DO A SECOND
EXAMPLE HERE, AND AGAIN, THIS
MAY HAVE SOUNDED LIKE AN
OXYMORON SOME TIME AGO, BUT
TRANSIT-ORIENTED SUBURBS.
WHAT'S THE STORY THERE?

A similar drawing pops up, but with a streetcar near a tall group of buildings.

Markus says WELL, IT'S SIMILAR IN THE
SENSE TO THE FIRST ONE IN THE
SENSE THAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT A
HIGH-RISE FORM.
BUT PLANNERS HAVE NOW, FOR SOME
TIME, ADVOCATED FOR HIGHER
DENSITIES IN THE SUBURBS SO YOU
CAN SERVE THEM WITH TRANSIT.
BECAUSE YOU NEED THAT DENSITY TO
ADEQUATELY SERVE... HAVE A
CAPACITY FOR TRANSIT.
AND SO PARTS OF THE SUBURBS ARE
PURPOSELY BEING DENSIFIED WITH
THE GOAL TO CONNECT THEM TO
HIGHER-ORDER TRANSIT.

Steve says LET'S DO ONE MORE:
DISTANCE SUBURBS.
WHAT'S GOING ON THERE?

A drawing shows houses, buildings and cars.

The caption changes to "Markus Moos. University of Waterloo."

Markus says YEAH, THE DISTANCE SUBURBS
ARE REALLY ACTUALLY TOWNS AND
CITIES IN THEIR OWN RIGHT.
WHERE I AM RIGHT NOW,
KITCHENER-WATERLOO, PLACES LIKE
PETERBOROUGH, PLACES LIKE BARRIE
AND SO FORTH, ARE PLACES THAT
ARE SORT OF WITHIN THE REACH OF
THE GREATER TORONTO AREA, ARE,
FOR MANY PEOPLE WHO LIVE THERE,
WOULDN'T CONSIDER THEMSELVES TO
BE SUBURBAN RESIDENTS, BUT THESE
PLACES ARE SO INTERCONNECTED
INTO THAT LARGER REGIONAL
METROPOLITAN ECONOMY THAT THERE
ARE WAYS WE CAN THINK ABOUT THEM
AS NEW TYPES OF SUBURBS IN THAT
REGIONAL SENSE.

Steve says DESPITE THE FACT,
CRYSTAL, THAT STUFF IS CHANGING,
THERE IS A CERTAIN... I THINK
IT'S FAIR TO SAY A CERTAIN
SNOBBERY AMONG PEOPLE WHO LIVE
IN THE CITIES, RIGHT IN THE
MIDDLE OF TORONTO OR OTTAWA OR
SOMETHING, TO SUBURBAN LIFESTYLE
THAT WAS CONSIDERED DESIRABLE
HALF A CENTURY AGO AND IS NOW
CONSIDERED PASSE OR SOMETHING.
HOW DID THAT HAPPEN WHERE IT
WENT FROM WHAT WE ALL WANTED
ONCE UPON A TIME, HOUSE IN THE
SUBURBS, PICKET FENCE, DOG, TWO
KIDS, ETC., TO BE CONSIDERED PASSE?

Crystal says ONE OF THE
THINGS WE NEED TO PUT ON THE
TABLE IS HOUSING AFFORDABILITY.
MANY OF THE PEOPLE LIVING IN
SUBURBS TODAY ARE OPTING TO LIVE
IN THESE ENVIRONMENTS BECAUSE
THEY ARE TRADING OFF THEIR
INTEREST IN BUYING PERHAPS A
LARGER HOME WITH A BACK YARD AND
PERHAPS MORE OF A MAIN STREET
FEEL TO A MORE SORT OF URBAN
ENVIRONMENT IN THAT CONTEXT THEY
MIGHT BE A LITTLE CLOSER TO WORK
AND OTHER SOCIAL SERVICES.
THAT'S CERTAINLY A FACTOR, YES.

Steve says GOT IT.
ROGER, NOW, IN THE STATES, OF
COURSE, I TAKE NO PLEASURE IN
USING THIS EXPRESSION, BUT IT
WAS AN EXPRESSION FROM THE
'70s THAT WE HEARD A LOT:
WHITE FLIGHT.
THE SUBURBS DEVELOPED BECAUSE
WHITES IN THE CITIES WERE AFRAID
OF LIVING IN THE CITIES AND
THEREFORE MOVED TO THE SUBURBS.
I DON'T THINK WE EXPERIENCED
THAT IN CANADA IN THE SAME WAY, DID WE?

The caption changes to "Roger Keil. Author, 'Suburban planet.'"

Roger says WELL, NOT TO
THE SAME DEGREE, BUT CANADA IS
KIDDING ITSELF AS IT USES ONLY
THE UNITED STATES AS A WAY TO
DISTANCE THEMSELVES FROM THE
IDEA OF THE RACIALIZATION OF THE
CITY WHICH IS ALIVE AND WELL IN
CANADA.
SO THAT IS A FACTOR THAT ALSO
PLAYS INTO PEOPLE'S DECISIONS.
BUT THERE WERE OTHER THINGS THAT
MARKUS HAS ALREADY REFERRED TO.
THE CITY OF TORONTO AND TO SOME
DEGREE SOME OF THE OTHER LARGER
CITIES IN CANADA HAVE ASPECTS OF
EUROPEAN URBANIZATION, TODAY
ASIAN URBANIZATION, AND SO YOU
HAD THE CHOICE OR THE CONSTRAINT
OF THE HOUSING MARKET WHICH
OFTEN THE CHOICE, OFTEN
OVERRATED, THE CHOICE AND THE
CONSTRAINT HAPPENS IN A
COMPLETELY DIFFERENT LANDSCAPE,
THE IDEA OF A FLIGHT FROM
TORONTO MAKES NO SENSE WHEN YOU
LOOK AT HOW HOUSING WAS
DEVELOPED IN THE '50s, '60s,
AND '70s, BECAUSE UNDER THE
METRO REGIME, SINCE '54, LARGE
HOUSING ESTATES WERE BUILT IN
THE SUBURBS, AND FOR MIDDLE
CLASS PEOPLE, THEY TENDED TO BE
MIXED IN FORM, THEY HAD
HIGH-RISE BUILDINGS, ROW HOUSES,
AND SINGLE FAMILY HOMES, AND TO
GO THERE WAS NOT NECESSARILY A FLIGHT.
NOW, TODAY...

Steve says CAN I JUST JUMP IN?
I WANT TO MAKE SURE I UNDERSTAND
THIS.
WE HAVE IN SOME RESPECTS THE
OPPOSITE PHENOMENON HAPPENING HERE?

The caption changes to "Roger Keil, @rkeil."

Roger says YEAH.
BUT THIS IS... IT'S PARTLY A
COLLECTION OF RACIALIZED
MINORITIES WHO OF COURSE IN
THOSE SUBURBAN AREAS ARE NOW
MAJORITIES, SO IT'S A BID ODD WE
KEEP REFERRING TO THEM AS
MINORITIES AS WE ARE LIVING IN
TORONTO IN AN URBAN AREA WHICH
IS MAJORITY NON-WHITE, SO I
THINK WE NEED TO CHANGE OUR
LANGUAGE THERE, BUT THERE ARE
TWO KINDS OF WAYS IN WHICH THESE
PEOPLE ARE LOOKED AT.
THERE ARE THESE SO-CALLED
PROBLEM AREAS IN THE OLD INNER
SUBURBS OF TORONTO WHICH ARE IN
MANY INSTANCES IN THE HOUSING
ESTATES, IN THOSE TOWER
NEIGHBOURHOODS.
BUT, YOU KNOW, THE MORE
IMPORTANT THING ABOUT THOSE IS
THEY ARE POOR PEOPLE TO SOME
DEGREE AND PEOPLE WHO ARE STUCK
IN PARTICULAR CONSTRAINTS OF THE
HOUSING MARKET, THEY AREN'T ABLE
TO MOVE AND THEY DON'T REALLY
CHOOSE TO LIVE THERE, AND CRIME
IS MAYBE ONE ASPECT.
BUT, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE CRIME
EVERYWHERE, THERE'S CRIME IN
GATED WHITE COMMUNITIES TOO.
THAT I WOULDN'T THINK IS THE
MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT.
THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT IS
THESE COMMUNITIES ARE CUT OFF,
SEGREGATED AND BADLY SERVICED AS
CRYSTAL SAID EARLIER.
THERE IS THE OTHER SUBURBAN AREA
WHICH IS NOW INHABITED LARGELY
BY NEW IMMIGRANTS, AND THOSE NEW
IMMIGRANTS TEND TO BE FROM
NON-EUROPEAN BACKGROUNDS HERE.
BUT THEY ARE... I JUST WANT TO
ADD ONE THING... THEY TEND TO BE
ASPIRATIONAL MIDDLE CLASS TO
SOME DEGREE, AND IN THE PUBLIC
DISCOURSE, THEY ARE BEING
CELEBRATED RATHER THAN VILIFIED.
SO YOU HAVE THESE STRANGE MIXES
OF DISCOURSES IN THE PUBLIC
DEBATE.
SOMETIMES THE SUBURBS ARE GOOD,
SOMETIMES THE SUBURBS ARE BAD,
SOMETIMES IMMIGRATION IS AN
ISSUE OF ASPIRATION AND
DEVELOPMENT, SOMETIMES IT'S A
PROBLEM.
SO, YOU KNOW, WE NEED TO FIGURE
THIS OUT.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: @theagenda, TVO.org, Facebook, YouTube, Periscope, Instagram."

Steve says CRYSTAL, CAN YOU
WEIGH IN ON HOW DIVERSE OR NOT
YOU THINK THE SUBURBS ARE IN
CANADA GENERALLY SPEAKING TODAY?

The caption changes to "Crystal Legacy, @CrystalLegacy1."

Crystal says I THINK
THEY'RE INCREDIBLY DIVERSE JUST
IN TERMS OF DEMOGRAPHIC MAKEUP,
YOU'RE SEEING A COMMUNITY LIKE
BRAMPTON, YOU'RE SEEING A
DEMOGRAPHIC SHIFT IN TERMS OF
AGE GROUPS, YOU KNOW, I'VE DONE
A LITTLE BIT OF RESEARCH THERE
AND SORT OF THE YOUNGER...

Steve says MUCH YOUNGER TODAY.

Crystal says ABSOLUTELY.
GENERATION COMING THROUGH WHO
HAVE DIFFERENT SORT OF
EXPECTATIONS OF WHAT SUBURBIA
OUGHT TO BE FOR THEM AS THEY
GROW OLD AND ESTABLISH THEIR
FAMILIES.

Steve says HELP US UNDERSTAND
THAT A LITTLE BETTER.
THE EXPECTATIONS OF SAY THE 95 percent
OF WHITE ANGLO SAXON PROTESTANTS
WHO LIVED IN BRAMPTON 50 YEARS
AGO DIFFER FROM THE MAJORITY
SOUTH ASIAN POPULATION TODAY IN
WHAT WAY?

Crystal says I WOULD SAY ONE OF THE WAYS
IN WHICH THEY DIFFER IS JUST IN
TERMS OF THEIR... PERHAPS THEIR
RELATIONSHIP TO THE CITY.
SOME MIGRANT GROUPS ARE COMING
FROM VERY URBAN ENVIRONMENTS AND
OTHERS PERHAPS ARE BUYING THEIR
FIRST HOME OR OTHERWISE LIVE IN
DOWNTOWN TORONTO OR THE INNER
CITY OF TORONTO SO THEIR
EXPERIENCE IS DIFFERENT AND
PERHAPS THEY WANT TO REPLICATE
THAT OR REPRESENT THAT IN SOME
WAY.
IT'S INTERESTING TO SEE THE
DEBATES THAT ARE HAPPENING IN A
COMMUNITY LIKE BRAMPTON.

Steve says MARKUS, IS IT
REASONABLE TO EXPECT THE SUBURBS
WILL EVER HAVE THE KIND OF
ECONOMIC CONCENTRATION IN THEIR
DOWNTOWNS THAT WE FIND SAY IN
THE DOWNTOWN CORES OF TORONTO,
OTTAWA, HAMILTON, ETC.?

The caption changes to "Markus Moos. Co-Editor, 'Still detached and subdivided?'"

Markus says I DON'T KNOW
IF THEY WILL TAKE THE SAME FORM,
BUT CERTAINLY IN TERMS OF, YOU
KNOW, NUMBER OF JOBS.
WE'RE ALREADY LOOKING AT A
LARGER SHARE, BUT THEY'RE MORE
DISPERSED.
IF WE LOOK AT TORONTO, FOR
INSTANCE, OR THE TORONTO REGION,
YOU HAVE THE LARGEST
CONCENTRATION OF EMPLOYMENT IN
THE DOWNTOWN STILL, AND THAT'S
ACTUALLY STILL QUITE HEALTHY AND
GROWING.
BUT YOU ALSO HAVE A SECONDARY
NODE IN AND AROUND THE AIRPORT
IN MISSISSAUGA.
AND THERE ARE OTHER EMPLOYMENT
NODES THROUGHOUT THE SUBURBAN
AREA.
SO AS WE HAVE BEEN PLANNING FOR
INTENSIFICATION, PLANNING FOR
EMPLOYMENT NODES, THROUGH PLACES
TO GROW AND THE GROWTH PLAN,
WE'RE GOING TO SEE SOME OF THOSE
EMPLOYMENT AREAS BECOME MORE
CONCENTRATED.
WILL THEY EVER, YOU KNOW,
OUTCOMPETE, SO TO SPEAK, THE
DOWNTOWN?
THAT'S THE KIND OF FORECAST
THAT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO MAKE
AND I'M NOT SURE I WANT TO PUT
MY MONEY ON THAT ONE.

Steve says TO HELP US OUT ON
THIS ONE, THEN, MISSISSAUGA IS
THE THIRD BIGGEST CITY IN
ONTARIO.
IT'S TORONTO, OTTAWA,
MISSISSAUGA.
IT HAS JUST BOOMED OVER THE LAST
25 YEARS.
IF YOU TALK TO PEOPLE IN
TORONTO, THEY WOULD PROBABLY
TELL YOU MISSISSAUGA IS A
SUBURB.
YOU'VE GOT TO DECIDE THIS FOR US
NOW: IS IT A CITY OR A SUBURB?

The caption changes to "Markus Moos, @Markus_Moos."

Markus says IT'S A REALLY GOOD QUESTION.
THE WAY I APPROACH THIS IN MY
WORK IS TO THINK ABOUT SUBURBAN
WAYS OF LIVING, AND BOTH CRYSTAL
AND ROGER HAVE TALKED ABOUT THIS
BEFORE ABOUT SORT OF HOW IN
NORTH AMERICAN, SUBURBAN WAYS OF
LIVING ARE DEFINED AT LEAST ONE
WAY BY LOOKING AT SINGLE
DETACHED HOMES ARE, WHERE PEOPLE
DRIVE, AND WHERE THERE'S A HIGH
SHARE OF HOME OWNERSHIP, AND
LOOK THROUGH THAT LENS, YES,
LARGE PARTS OF MISSISSAUGA ARE
PROBABLY SUBURBAN.
BUT THERE ARE ALSO OTHER PARTS
WHERE YOU SUDDENLY SEE HIGHER
DENSITY HOUSING FORMS, YOU'RE
SEEING LOTS OF CONVERSATIONS AND
SOME ACTION TOO ON THE POLICY
FRONT IN TERMS OF BRINGING MORE
TRANSIT INTO THESE AREAS.
I THINK IT'S... PART OF WHAT
WE'RE TRYING TO DO IN OUR
RESEARCH ABOUT SUBURBS IS
ACTUALLY MOVE AWAY FROM THIS
DICHOTOMY OF, IT'S A CITY, IT'S
A SUBURB, BECAUSE YOU ACTUALLY
SEE PEOPLE LIVING SUBURBAN WAYS
OF LIFE IN DIFFERENT PARTS OF
THE METROPOLITAN AREA, WHETHER
THAT'S IN MISSISSAUGA OR
ACTUALLY EVEN, YOU KNOW, I MIGHT
SAY IN DOWNTOWN TORONTO, YOU
HAVE PEOPLE LIVING QUITE
SUBURBAN WAYS OF LIFE IN THE WAY
THAT THERE ARE AREAS IN AND
AROUND THE DOWNTOWN THAT ARE
SINGLE FAMILY HOMES OWNED AND
WHERE PEOPLE STILL DRIVE, EVEN
THOUGH THEY'RE ACTUALLY IN A
FAIRLY DENSE TRANSIT-SUPPORTIVE
NEIGHBOURHOOD.

Steve says GOTCHA.
ROGER, HOW ABOUT THIS?
THE CONVENTIONAL WISDOM IS THAT
MOST OF THE BEST ENTERTAINMENT
IS IN THE URBAN CORES OF THIS
PROVINCE AND COUNTRY, YOU KNOW,
THE SPORTS ARENAS ARE THERE, THE
LIVE THEATRE IS THERE, THE BEST
RESTAURANTS ARE THERE, THE BEST
TOURIST ATTRACTIONS ARE THERE.
HOW MUCH OF ANY OF THAT IS NOW
IN SUBURBAN CANADA?

Roger says OBVIOUSLY SOME
OF THE LARGER CULTURAL
INSTITUTIONS AND THE SPORTS
ARENAS AND ALL THAT ARE
DOWNTOWN.
AND THAT...

Steve says NOT IN OTTAWA.

Roger says NOT IN OTTAWA, YEAH.
AND MARKHAM IS LOOKING AT THE
POSSIBILITY OF HAVING AN NHL
TEAM.
THERE WAS TALK BEFORE THE
TORONTO FC CAME TO THE REGION
WHERE THE STADIUM COULD BE UP
THERE SOMEWHERE AT YORK
UNIVERSITY.
SO THIS IS NOT DECIDED FOREVER.
BUT OF COURSE THE INVESTMENTS
HAVE BEEN MADE IN THE DOWNTOWN
CORE.
THERE'S A CERTAIN MAGNETISM
THERE.
IF YOU GO AWAY A LITTLE BIT FROM
THE LARGER INSTITUTIONAL
OFFERINGS IN CULTURE AND SPORTS
AND ENTERTAINMENT, YOU FIND A
LOT OF LIFE IN THE SUBURBS.
YOU KNOW, STARTING AT THE PLACE
WHERE I WORK, AT YORK
UNIVERSITY, WE HAVE A FANTASTIC
ART GALLERY, WE HAVE ALL KINDS
OF FINE ARTS, PERFORMANCES.
WE HAVE, OF COURSE, IN THE
COMMUNITIES AROUND YORK
UNIVERSITY, TO STAY WITH THAT
EXAMPLE, WE HAVE A VERY LIVELY
HIP-HOP CULTURE, WE HAVE A VERY
LIVELY ARTS CULTURE, STREET ARTS
CULTURE.

Steve says AND A TENNIS
TOURNAMENT...

Roger says TENNIS TOURNAMENT.
ONE OF THE INSTITUTIONAL
FACTORS.
I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO
UNDERSTAND THAT THE MANTLE OF
THE DIVERSITY AND THE MAJORITY
OF NEW IMMIGRATION IS IN THE
SUBURBS, YOU CAN EXPECT THAT
THERE IS SOME LIFE THERE.

Steve says CRYSTAL, HERE IN THE
CAPITAL CITY OF THE PROVINCE OF
ONTARIO, WE CAN SEE HOW
DIFFICULT AND PRICY IT IS JUST
TO BUILD ONE SUBWAY STOP.
THE POLITICAL DEBATES ARE... ARE
AWESOME AND THE PRICE IS EQUALLY
AS AWESOME.
I DON'T KNOW, MAYBE PUT YOUR
AUSTRALIAN HAT ON HERE FOR A
WHILE AND MAKE SOME COMPARING
AND CONTRASTING COMMENTS ABOUT
HOW OTHER JURISDICTIONS AROUND
THIS WORLD FIGURE OUT HOW TO
BUILD LIGHT RAIL TRANSIT IN THE
SUBURBS, SUBWAYS IN THE SUBURBS.
I DON'T KNOW.
HOW DO THEY DO IT?

The caption changes to "What becomes a suburb most?"

Crystal says HOW DO THEY DO IT?
GEEZ.
TO DRAW A COMPARISON IS PROBABLY
UNFAIR.
IN THE CITY THAT I LIVE IN AT
THE MOMENT, MELBOURNE,
AUSTRALIA, AND I WOULD PUT
SYDNEY AUSTRALIA AS WELL AS
PERTH, AUSTRALIA INTO THAT SAME
CAMP, WE'RE HAVING A DEBATE
BETWEEN RAIL AND TOLL ROADS AT
THE MOMENT.
ONE OF THE REASONS WHY I WAS
ATTRACTED TO COME BACK TO
ONTARIO AND DO RESEARCH HERE ON
INFRASTRUCTURE PLANNING WAS
BECAUSE IN PART I FOUND THE
CONFLICT AROUND LIGHT RAIL
REALLY INTERESTING, YOU KNOW?
WHO CAN DISPUTE LIGHT RAIL?
OF COURSE THERE'S LOTS OF
REASONS WHY WE CAN DISPUTE LIGHT
RAIL AND I FIND THAT INCREDIBLY
INTERESTING.
PART OF THAT IS IN THE REGIONS
I'M LOOKING AT, LIGHT RAIL,
HAMILTON, MISSISSAUGA, BRAMPTON,
LIGHT RAIL HAS BECOME A PROXY
FOR A BIGGER CONVERSATION AROUND
WHAT KIND OF CITY DO THEY WANT
TO LIVE IN.
THESE ARE RELATIVELY SUBURBAN
ENVIRONMENTS, HAMILTON IS MORE
URBAN IN SOME RESPECTS.
WE'RE COMING TO TERMS WITH THE
FACT THAT THEIR ENVIRONMENT IS
GOING TO SHIFT FROM
CAR-DEPENDENT SUBURBAN
EXPERIENCE TO ONE THAT MIGHT BE
PRIORITIZING OR AT LEAST
STARTING THE EXPANSION OF LIGHT
RAIL, AND I MEAN, THAT'S A
REALLY INTERESTING DEBATE TO GO
AND BE PART OF, PARTICULARLY
SINCE MY EXPERIENCE IN BRANTFORD
AND THEN AT WATERLOO, WHERE I
STUDIED AND THEN TO COME TO
HAMILTON TO SEE WHERE A CITY
THAT WAS OTHERWISE A VERY
CAR-DEPENDENT CITY AND A LOW
DENSITY CITY BASED ON MY
EXPERIENCE IS NOW DECIDING TO,
WELL, WAIT A MINUTE, THERE'S
SOMETHING IN THIS LIGHT RAIL
THING THAT WE WANT TO BE A PART
OF.
IT DRAWS INVESTMENT INTO THE
DOWNTOWN CORE.

Steve says LET ME PICK UP ON
THOSE THREE CITIES YOU JUST
MENTIONED IN AUSTRALIA.
ARE ANY OF THOSE CITIES TRYING
TO BUILD SUBWAYS TO THE SUBURBS?

Crystal says ONE OF THE FANTASTIC THINGS
ABOUT MELBOURNE...

Steve says YOU SAY IT LIKE AN
AUSSIE NOW.

Crystal says I'VE BEEN PRACTISING FOR 12 YEARS.
GOT IT DOWN.
ALTHOUGH MY AUSTRALIAN
COUNTERPARTS MAY DISPUTE THAT.
SO THE AUSTRALIAN CITIES,
MELBOURNE GREW AND EXPANDED AS A
RESULT OF THE GOLD RUSH IN THE
LATE 1800s, AND AS A RESULT OF
THAT, MONEY, INVESTMENT, WE GOT
BEAUTIFUL VICTORIAN ARCHITECTURE
BUT ALSO A FAIRLY EXPANSIVE
TRAIN SYSTEM.
MUCH OF OUR SUBURBS GREW IN
RESPONSE TO THE TRAIL NETWORK
INITIALLY, BUT THEN OF COURSE
THE ADVENT OF THE CAR EXPANDED
THAT OUT EVEN FURTHER, SO WE
HAVE QUITE LOW DENSITY SUBURBS
NOW IN THE AUSTRALIAN CITIES.

Steve says HOW ABOUT HERE,
ROGER... YOU WANT TO ADD SOMETHING?

Roger says I THINK IT'S
IMPORTANT TO SAY WHILE LRT TAKES
A LOT OF ATTENTION AND HERE NOW
THE METROLINX ROLLOUT WITH THE
GO TRAINS, IT IS VERY IMPORTANT
TO HAVE OUR FOCUS ON THAT.
WE NEED TO ALSO SEE THAT THE
SUBURBS OF COURSE HAVE BEEN
HISTORICALLY BEEN THE PLACE
WHERE ALL THOSE BIG
INFRASTRUCTURES GO THAT THE
PEOPLE DIDN'T WANT IN THE INNER
CITY.
WE PRIDE OURSELVES IN TORONTO
HAVING STOPPED THE SPADINA
EXPRESSWAY, BUT THE 407 WAS
BUILT.

Steve says IT WAS BUILT BECAUSE
THERE WAS NOTHING THERE, IN A
WAY THAT SPADINA...

Roger says TO SAY NOTHING
THERE, YOU KNOW... I DON'T THINK
THAT'S QUITE THE RIGHT WAY TO
PUT IT.

Steve says SORRY.
LET ME REPHRASE.

[MIXED VOICES]

Roger says IF YOU BUILT A
6 OR 8-LANE HIGHWAY ANYWHERE,
YOU MAKE A STATEMENT ON WHAT YOU
EXPECT TO DEVELOP AROUND IT, AND
THAT IS WHAT THE 407 WAS.
BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY PERHAPS,
WHEN PEARSON WAS EXPANDED 15
YEARS AGO, 10 YEARS AGO, THERE
WAS NO PUBLIC OUTCRY, THERE WAS
NO PROBLEM.
SO OFTEN WHEN I INTERVIEW
POLITICIANS, YOU KNOW, THEY SAY,
WHY DON'T WE DO EVERYTHING LIKE
PEARSON AIRPORT, RIGHT?
WE JUST GET A BUNCH OF PEOPLE
TOGETHER, WE HIRE A GUY FROM
SAN FRANCISCO TO RUN THE SHOW
AND WE'RE JUST... ACTUALLY
THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NOW WITH
THE PORT LANDS, EXACTLY THE SAME
THING.
THE PROBLEM IS THAT WE OFTEN
DON'T SEE THOSE INFRASTRUCTURES
THAT ACTUALLY CARRY MUCH OF THE
WEIGHT OF THE REGION, THAT IS
THE BIG HIGHWAYS, THAT IS THE
BIG... YOU KNOW, JUST NORTH OF
YORK UNIVERSITY, FOR EXAMPLE,
WHEN I LOOK OUT THE WINDOW, I
SEE THE TRAIN... THE FREIGHT
TRAIN MANAGING STATION, I FORGET
THE NAME NOW.
BUT, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE MANY OF
THESE MEGA INFRASTRUCTURES THAT
ARE JUST BUILT WITHOUT THE
PUBLIC TAKING ANY NOTICE, WHICH
IS OF COURSE EXACTLY THE SAME
KIND OF INVISIBILITY THAT
HAPPENS TO THOSE MEGA EMPLOYMENT
ZONES THAT PAMELA BLAIR AND
MARCIE BIRCHFIELD ARE TELLING US
ABOUT THAT MARKUS MENTIONED
EARLIER THAT ARE ALSO UP THERE
AND UNSERVICED TO SOME DEGREE BY
TRANSIT, BUT THEY ARE SERVICED
FOR THE TRUCKS WHO COME AND ROLL
IN THERE AND IN AND OUT AND IN
AND OUT AND ARE PART OF THE
LARGEST SUBURBAN ECONOMY.

Steve says MARKUS, IN YOUR
VIEW, THERE'S BEEN AN EFFORT TO
MAINTAIN GREEN BELTS NORTH OF
THE CITY OF TORONTO, DO THOSE
HELP OR HURT WITH URBAN SPRAWL,
IN YOUR OPINION?

Markus says THE QUESTION
IS UNFORTUNATELY NOT QUITE AS
STRAIGHTFORWARD AS TO WHETHER IT
HELPS OR HURTS.
IT'S QUITE COMPLEX, WHICH IS NOT
MEANT TO BE A COP-OUT, BUT
RATHER TO SAY THAT, YOU KNOW,
CLEARLY, IF YOU'RE GOING TO PUT
A BOUNDARY IN PLACE AS TO HOW
FAR THE CITY CAN GROW, THAT'S
GOING TO PREVENT GROWTH FROM
GOING, ESPECIALLY IF IT'S GOT
LEGISLATIVE TEETH AND IF THE
AREAS ARE GOING TO BE PROTECTED.
THE OTHER SIDE TO IT, THOUGH, IS
IT SOMETIMES CAN RESULT IN
LEAPFROG DEVELOPMENTS.
SO DEVELOPMENTS KIND OF JUMPING
OVER THE GREEN BELT INTO FURTHER
FLUNG AREAS THAT ARE THEN
BECOMING INTERCONNECTED INTO THE
URBAN REGION OR THE METROPOLITAN
REGION, AND PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY
COMMUTING EVEN FURTHER IN.
NOW, IN SOUTHERN ONTARIO, TO
SOME EXTENT, WE'VE KIND OF
PROTECTED OURSELVES A LITTLE BIT
AGAINST THAT BECAUSE WE'VE GOT A
REALLY LARGE REGIONAL APPROACH
TO GROWTH MANAGEMENT WHERE YOU
HAVE GROWTH TARGETS, YOU KNOW,
EVEN FOR PLACES AS FAR AWAY AS
FROM DOWNTOWN TORONTO, LIKE
KITCHENER-WATERLOO, WHERE WE'RE
ALSO PART OF THE GROWTH
PLANNING.
YOU KNOW, THEY CAN HELP, BUT
THEY HAVE TO BE DONE WELL.

Steve says IF YOU WANTED,
CRYSTAL, TO TRANSFORM EXISTING
SUBURBS INTO PLACES THAT WERE
DEEMED TO BE MORE PLEASING TO
LIVE IN... AND SOME OF THAT IS
HAPPENING RIGHT NOW, RIGHT,
THERE ARE LRTs GOING IN, ADDED
DENSITY GOING IN... WHAT WOULD
YOU ADD TO THOSE LIST OF THINGS
THAT MAKE SUBURBS BETTER PLACES
TO LIVE?

Crystal says ONE OF THE
POLICY ISSUES IN AUSTRALIA IS
THE IDEA OF A 20-MINUTE CITY.
THIS IDEA YOU CAN GET TO
SERVICES, SCHOOLS, HOSPITALS,
WORK PLACES WITHIN A 20-MINUTE
WALK, BICYCLE RIDE, OR TRANSIT
RIDE.
AND, I MEAN, THE CHALLENGES
AROUND ACHIEVING THAT, THOUGH,
IS QUITE CONSIDERABLE IN TERMS
OF LAND USE AND TRANSPORT
INTEGRATION.

Steve says DOES THAT KIND OF
REQUIRE EVERYTHING TO BE IN THE
CORE?

Crystal says WELL, NO.
IT'S ABOUT SORT OF DECENTERING
THE METROPOLITAN REGION.
SO IN RECOGNIZING THAT, YOU
KNOW, MELBOURNE CBD.

Steve says CBD?

Crystal says CENTRAL BUSINESS DISTRICT
DOWNTOWN WILL REMAIN, YOU KNOW,
THE MAIN SORT OF EMPLOYMENT HUB
FOR A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT
REASONS.
IT'S ALSO TO RECOGNIZE THAT
THERE ARE OTHER AREAS IN THE
REGION, SUCH AS LIKE MISSISSAUGA
AND BRAMPTON, WHICH I THINK
MISSISSAUGA IN PARTICULAR PLAYS
A REALLY INTERESTING AND STRONG
ROLE IN TERMS OF CREATING A HUB
OF ACTIVITY AND EMPLOYMENT
AROUND WHAT WAS OTHERWISE A
FAIRLY SORT OF RESIDENTIAL
ENVIRONMENT UP TO THAT POINT.

Steve says DO YOU WANT TO ADD
SOMETHING TO THAT, ROGER?

Roger says YEAH, I THINK
THIS IS A GREAT QUESTION.
OUR PROJECT THAT BRINGS US
TOGETHER IN TORONTO IS A GLOBAL
PROJECT.
SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I
THINK WE CAN LEARN FROM OTHER
PLACES AROUND THE WORLD IS THAT
TORONTO COULD USE A LITTLE BIT
MORE INFORMALITY IN ITS SUBURBS.
IF YOU LOOK AT OTHER PARTS OF
THE WORLD, NOT NECESSARILY THE
CLASSIC ANGLO SAXON COUNTRIES,
BUT IF YOU LOOK AT AFRICA AND
PARTS OF ASIA AND LATIN AMERICA,
THEY ARE OF COURSE IN THOSE
PERIPHERIES, YOU HAVE A LOT OF
BUILDING IN BACK YARDS, YOU
HAVE, YOU KNOW, ALL KINDS OF
DEVELOPMENTS THAT AREN'T
NECESSARILY TO BUILDING CODE.
I THINK WE CAN EXPLORE THAT
POSSIBILITY.
SECONDLY, I THINK WE SHOULD
EXPLORE THE POSSIBILITY, WHICH
METROLINX, FOR EXAMPLE, IS
ALREADY DOING IN THE TORONTO
AREA, IS TO HAVE BETTER
LARGE-SCALE TRANSIT SO THAT
BARRIE AND HAMILTON AND THESE
KINDS OF PLACES HAVE
CONNECTIVITY.
SO YOU KNOW WHEN YOU GO TO THE
GO STATION, YOU HAVE TO WAIT 20
MINUTES FOR THE NEXT TRAIN IF
YOU MISS ONE.
WE DON'T HAVE THAT RIGHT NOW.
THE THIRD THING IS THAT OUR
SUBURBS NEED TO BE MUCH, MUCH
MORE SMALL SCALE IN TERMS OF THE
DEVELOPMENT OF MOBILITY.
I GREW UP IN A SOUTHERN GERMAN
SUBURB IN A BUNGALOW IN, YOU
KNOW, A QUIET SUBURBAN AREA, BUT
I DID EVERYTHING ON MY BIKE.
MY MOTHER, WHEN SHE WENT
SHOPPING, SHE WOULD ALWAYS GO ON
HER BIKE WHEN SHE WENT SHOPPING.
THAT HAD TO DO WITH THE FACT
THAT THERE WERE MARKETS, PLACES
SIMILAR TO WHAT YOU WERE SAYING.
OUR SUBURBS ARE RESISTANT TO
THAT SORT OF THING AND I THINK
WE CAN DO A LOT TO CREATE, YOU
KNOW, IN THOSE TERMS THESE KINDS
OF INNOVATIONS, INFORMALITY,
LARGER SCALE CONNECTIVITY AND
SMALLER SCALE NETWORKING.

Steve says THERE'S STILL A
SENSE YOU HAVE TO GET IN YOUR
CAR IF YOU WANT TO PICK UP A
QUART OF MILK IN THE SUBURBS.

Crystal says CERTAINLY.
SOME PEOPLE WOULD PREFER THAT.
THE EASE OF DRIVING, THE LUXURY,
THE FREEDOM THAT A CAR PROVIDES
US.
CAN I PICK UP ON A POINT THAT
ROGER MENTIONED, AND THAT'S
INFORMALITY.
I JUST WANT TO PIECE THAT OUT A
LITTLE BIT FURTHER.
ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT CREATIVITY
OR TALKING ABOUT A DIFFERENT
FORM OF PLANNING THAT PERHAPS IS
NOT...

Roger says THE SUBURBS ARE
HIGHLY REGULATED IN TERMS OF
PLANNING REGIMES AND WHAT YOU
CAN DO IN SOME SUBURBS, YOU
AREN'T ALLOWED TO HANG CLOTHES
ON THE CLOTHESLINE IN BACK
YARDS.
I THINK THOSE REGULATIONS NEED
TO FALL TO A CERTAIN DEGREE.
YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO GARDEN
THE WAY YOU WANT TO GARDEN, YOU
NEED TO HAVE DOMESTIC ANIMALS IN
THE BACK YARD, YOU NEED TO HAVE
BUSINESSES IN THE BACK YARD, YOU
NEED TO BE ABLE TO SELL STUFF
FROM YOUR FRONT YARD.
THESE KINDS OF THINGS THAT
HAPPEN EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD
EXCEPT FOR THE HIGHLY REGULATED
AREAS IN NORTH AMERICA.
THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN.

Steve says MARKUS, CAN I ASK
YOU TO PICK UP ON THIS NOTION
CRYSTAL ADVANCED A FEW MOMENTS
AGO ABOUT THE 20-MINUTE CITY.
IT SOUNDS LIKE IN A PLACE LIKE
WATERLOO THAT COULD BE
POTENTIALLY POSSIBLE.
I CAN'T IMAGINE IT IN THE
CAPITAL CITY, BUT MAYBE I'M WRONG.
WHAT DO YOU THINK?

Markus says YEAH, IT'S AN
INTERESTING POINT.
YOU KNOW, WE CAN GET ALMOST
EVERYWHERE IN THE REGION IN 20
MINUTES BY CAR, BUT THAT'S IT,
MOST OF IT IS BY CAR.
IT'S IN SOME WAYS KIND OF IRONIC
THAT SOME OF THE SMALLER PLACES
IN NORTH AMERICA ARE MORE
CAR-DEPENDENT THAN THE BIGGER
CITIES, ESPECIALLY IF YOU LOOK
AT THEIR DOWNTOWNS.
IN THEORY WE CAN DO IT BUT IT
REQUIRES A SIGNIFICANT
INVESTMENT IN CYCLING
INFRASTRUCTURE, IN TRANSIT
INFRASTRUCTURE, AND A
RECENTRALIZATION OF GROWTH INTO
CENTRES AND SECONDARY CENTRES SO
THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO AS FAR
AS DRIVING FROM ONE END OF A
REGION TO ANOTHER FOR CERTAIN
KINDS OF TASKS OR CHORES.
BUT THE OTHER THING I WANTED TO
PICK UP ON IS THIS IDEA ABOUT,
YOU KNOW, CENTRALIZATION AND
DENSITY AND ADDING TRANSIT IN
THE SUBURBS.
I'M NOT DISAGREEING WITH ANY OF
THAT.
THAT'S VERY MUCH NEEDED.
THAT'S THE DIRECTION WE NEED TO
BE HEADING IN, TO MAKE OUR
SUBURBS MORE SUSTAINABLE, TO
ADDRESS ISSUES RELATED TO
CLIMATE CHANGE AND REDUCE OUR
CAR DEPENDENCE.
BUT AT THE SAME TIME COMING OUT
OF NOW THE SEVEN YEARS OF
RESEARCH ON SUBURBS, I THINK ONE
OF THE THINGS THAT I'VE BECOME
INCREASINGLY AWARE OF IS JUST
THIS MAGNITUDE AND SIZE OF THE
STILL LOW DENSITY SUBURBS
DEPENDENT ON CARS, AND PART OF
ME THINKS WE CAN'T DENSIFY OUR
WAY OUT OF THE PROBLEM FAST
ENOUGH TO DEAL WITH THE PROBLEMS
ASSOCIATED WITH CLIMATE CHANGE.
SO IN MY MIND, YES, WE NEED TO
DO THOSE INVESTMENTS IN TRANSIT,
IN CYCLING, AND IN WALKABILITY,
BUT WE ALSO NEED TO THINK ABOUT
ALTERNATIVE FUEL TECHNOLOGY AND
CLEANER CARS IF WE WANT TO MAKE
A DENT INTO THE EMISSIONS FAST
ENOUGH.
THAT'S NOT TO SAY IT HAS TO BE
EITHER-OR, JUST RECENTLY, FOR
INSTANCE, IN THE GUARDIAN, THERE
WAS AN ARTICLE ABOUT, WE CAN'T
RELY ON CLEANER CARS, WE HAVE TO
RELY ON TRANSIT AND CYCLING.
THAT BECOMES SORT OF THIS ONE OR
THE OTHER DEBATE.
I DON'T THINK WE WANT TO PUT ALL
OUR EGGS IN ONE BASKET.
WE WANT TO EXPLORE THE MULTITUDE
OF SUSTAINABILITY SOLUTIONS THAT
ARE OUT THERE AND SAY LET'S
INVEST AS BROADLY AS WE CAN TO
SEE WHICH ONES WILL PARTLY BE
MOST SUCCESSFUL BUT ALSO BECAUSE
OF THE SCALE OF PROBLEM OF
AUTOMOBILES, IT'S JUST SO LARGE,
THAT, AGAIN, I DON'T THINK WE
CAN DENSIFY OUR WAY OUT OF THE
PROBLEM FAST ENOUGH.

Steve says GO AHEAD.
WE HAVE 30 SECONDS LEFT, CRYSTAL.
IT'S ALL YOURS.

Crystal says LIKE
ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR PAUL MAYES
WHO TALKED ABOUT NETWORK
PLANNING, THE IMPORTANCE OF
INTEGRATING BUSES, RAIL, AND
LIGHT RAIL INFRASTRUCTURE AND
CROSS SUBSIDIZE IN ORDER TO
SERVE LOW DENSITY URBAN
ENVIRONMENTS AND SUBURBS.
SO I AGREE ABSOLUTELY WITH
MARKUS AND THAT WE CAN'T BUILD
OUR WAY OUT OF IT.
BUT IT'S NOT NECESSARILY A
CHICKEN OR AN EGG.
I THINK TRANSIT CAN BE BETTER
COORDINATED AND NETWORKED IN A
FAR MORE SORT OF SOPHISTICATED WAY.

Steve says COULD YOU MENTION
THE NAME OF THE UNIVERSITY THAT
YOU ARE AT ONE MORE TIME?

Crystal says I'M AT THE UNIVERSITY OF
MELBOURNE.

[LAUGHTER]

The caption changes to "Producer: Sandra Gionas, @sandragionas; Producer: Harrison Lowman, @harrisonlowman."

Steve says WELL-SAID BY
SOMEBODY FROM BRANTFORD, ONTARIO.
THERE WE GO.
MARKUS MOOS, GOOD OF YOU TO JOIN
US ON THE LINE FROM WATERLOO,
ONTARIO, WHERE YOU'RE AT THE
UNIVERSITY OF WATERLOO, CRYSTAL
LEGACY AT THE UNIVERSITY OF
MELBOURNE, AND ROGER KEIL FROM
YORK UNIVERSITY.
GOOD TO HAVE ALL THREE OF YOU ON
TVO TONIGHT.
THANK YOU.

All the guests say THANK YOU.

Watch: Rethinking the Suburbs