Transcript: Canada's Future Depends on IT | Oct 25, 2017

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, pale peach shirt, and striped gray and purple tie.

A caption on screen reads "Canada's future depends on it. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says THE INNOVATION ECONOMY.
THE KNOWLEDGE ECONOMY.
WHATEVER YOU CALL IT, IT'S VERY
LIKELY THE FUTURE ECONOMY.
AND WHILE CANADIANS ARE EAGERLY
JUMPING INTO HIGH INNOVATION
SECTORS... INFORMATION
TECHNOLOGY, ADVANCED
MANUFACTURING AND THE LIKE...
THERE ARE INDICATIONS THAT WE'RE
NOT GETTING THE MOST OUT OF OUR
EFFORTS, IN PARTICULAR BECAUSE
WE'RE NOT TENDING TO OUR
INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY.
JOINING US NOW TO DIG INTO THIS:
DAN BREZNITZ, CHAIR OF
INNOVATION STUDIES AND THE
CO-DIRECTOR OF THE INNOVATION
POLICY LAB AT THE MUNK SCHOOL OF
GLOBAL AFFAIRS AT U OF T...

Dan Breznitz is in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short gray hair. He's wearing a brown coat and white shirt.

Steve continues GIUSEPPINA D'AGOSTINO, FOUNDER
AND DIRECTOR OF THE INTELLECTUAL
PROPERTY LAW AND TECHNOLOGY
PROGRAM AT OSGOODE HALL LAW
SCHOOL...

Giuseppina is in her thirties, with shoulder-length auburn hair. She's wearing a brown jacket.

Steve continues AND DAN CIURIAK, SENIOR FELLOW
AT CIGI (THE CENTER FOR
INTERNATIONAL GOVERNANCE
INNOVATION) AND FORMER DEPUTY
CHIEF ECONOMIST FOR CANADA'S
DEPARTMENT OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS
AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE.

Dan Ciuriak is in his sixties, clean-shaven, with short white hair. He's wearing glasses, a gray suit, white shirt, and striped blue tie.

Steve continues IT'S GREAT TO HAVE YOU THREE
HERE WITH US AT TVO TONIGHT TO
TALK ABOUT SOMETHING, AND, DAN,
I'M GOING TO YOU FIRST, I SHOULD
SAY BOTH NAMES, BECAUSE WE HAVE
TWO DANS HERE, DAN BREZNITZ,
THIS IS SOMETHING WE NEED TO
KNOW A LOT ABOUT AND I SUSPECT
MOST PEOPLE WATCHING US NOW
DON'T KNOW WHAT INTELLECTUAL
PROPERTY IS.
LET'S GET A DEFINITION OFF THE
TOP BEFORE WE START.

The caption changes to "Dan Breznitz. University of Toronto."

Dan Breznitz says IT'S THE
ABILITY TO ACTUALLY OWN YOUR
INNOVATION.
SO YOU INVENTED SOMETHING.
IT'S KNOWLEDGE.
IF YOU DON'T OWN IT, ANYONE CAN
COPYCAT IT.
WE HAVE PROBABLY HEARD STORIES
ABOUT CHINESE COPYCATS, BEFORE
IT WAS JAPANESE, KOREAN.
IF YOU OWN IT, YOU CAN ACTUALLY
GET TO BE PAID ON IT.
SO IF YOU INNOVATE AND YOU WANT
TO MAKE MONEY AND YOU WANT TO
CREATE JOBS, YOU ACTUALLY HAVE
TO HAVE OWNERSHIP.

Steve says YOU SAID RECENTLY IN
A PIECE IN
THE GLOBE AND MAIL
THAT I READ OF YOURS CANADIANS
OPERATE IN A WORLD WHERE THE
DECK OF CARDS IS ALREADY DEALT
AND OUR COMPETITORS HAVE ALL THE
ACES.
WHICH MEANS WHAT?

Dan Breznitz says FOR EXAMPLE, YOU MIGHT HAVE
HEARD THAT GOOGLE IS GOING TO
DEVELOP A SMART CITY IN TORONTO.

Steve says YES.

Dan Breznitz says YOU MIGHT ALSO HAVE HEARD
THEIR FORMER AND CEO IS IN
CANADA.
THE REASON HE'S IN CANADA IS ALL
THE INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY OWNED
BY GOOGLE, ON WHICH WE MAKE THE
MONEY, WAS ACTUALLY BASED ON
RESEARCH BY CANADIANS IN CANADA,
PAID FOR BY THE CANADIAN
TAXPAYERS.

Steve says BUT THEY OWN IT?

Dan Breznitz says YEAH.

Steve says SO WE DID IT AND
THEY'RE GETTING RICH OFF IT?

Dan Breznitz says MORE OR LESS.
FUN, ISN'T IT?

Steve says YOU SAY THAT LIKE A
NEGATIVE THING.

Dan Breznitz says I THINK GOOGLE SHOULD EARN
MORE MONEY.
THEY JUST DON'T HAVE ENOUGH.

[LAUGHTER]

Steve says YOU CAN LOOK AT THE
MONITORS IN THE STUDIO.
THIS IS ACCORDING TO THE WORLD
INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY
ASSOCIATION.
WE ARE NOT DOING TOO WELL ON
THIS LIST.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "How innovative is Canada."

Steve reads data from the slate and says HERE ARE SOME OF THE MORE
INNOVATIVE COUNTRIES IN THE
WORLD, SWITZERLAND, SWEDEN,
U.S., UNITED KINGDOM, FINLAND,
FRANCE, ISRAEL, WE ARE NUMBER 18
ON THIS LIST.
IF YOU KEEP GOING DOWN, ONE
COUNTRY LIKELY TO BE A MAJOR
PLAYER, YES, CHINA, 22 TODAY,
BUT WE CAN ASSUME GOING TO GO
HIGHER UP THE LIST AS WE GO
ALONG.
NOW, LET'S DO A SECOND GRAPHIC
HERE.
THE SAME ORGANIZATION HAS ALSO
COMPUTED THE LOCATION OF
INNOVATION HOT SPOTS, MAPPING
PLACES WHERE MOST PATENTS
ORIGINATE, AND IT CALCULATED
THAT MORE THAN HALF OF THE
LEADING INVENTORS LIVE AND WORK
IN ONLY 30 HOT SPOTS ACROSS THE
GLOBE, AND UNFORTUNATELY, YOU
WILL NOTICE SOMETHING MISSING
FROM THAT LIST, EVERYBODY: NO
DOTS FOR CANADA.

A world map pops up with several locations highlighted across the northern hemisphere, including San Diego, Boston-Cambridge, Paris, and Seoul.

Steve continues NO DOTS FOR CANADA.
KNOWLEDGE-BASED TECHNOLOGIES ARE
BASED ON IDEAS, AND FOR THESE
IDEAS TO BECOME ECONOMICALLY
EFFECTIVE, THEY NEED TO FIRST
BECOME PATENTS, SO LET'S DO ONE
MORE GRAPHIC HERE AND SHOW YOU
HOW CANADA RANKS IN PATENT
APPLICATIONS IN COMPARISON WITH
OTHER COUNTRIES.

Another slate reads "Patents per million."

Steve reads data from the slate and says THIS IS PATENTS PER MILLION, AND
THERE ARE SOUTH KOREA, JAPAN,
SWITZERLAND WELL AT THE TOP OF
THE LIST, U.S., GERMANY, CHINA,
FINLAND, AND THERE WE ARE, WELL,
WELL DOWN THAT LIST.
WE'RE NUMBER 19 ON THAT LIST.
COME ON IN HERE AND TELL US
ABOUT ALL THESE NUMBERS WE'VE
JUST SEEN.
WHAT DO THEY TELL US ABOUT
CANADA'S PLACE IN THE WORLD OF INNOVATION?

The caption changes to "Giuseppina D'Agostino. York University."

Giuseppina says I CAN TELL YOU WE HAVE THE TALENT.
THAT IS NOT THE PROBLEM.
THERE IS NO LACK OF TALENT IN
THIS COUNTRY.
I SEE IT MYSELF MY STUDENTS HAVE
THE SMARTS AND ENTHUSIASM TO
CHANGE THE WORLD AND TO MAKE IT
A BETTER PLACE.
WHAT WE DO LACK IS THE
INFRASTRUCTURE AND THE
ECOSYSTEM.
SO A LOT OF THOSE FIGURES SHOW I
THINK ONE PARTICULAR SLICE OF
THE INNOVATION ECONOMY, AND
THAT'S LOOKING AT PATENTS.
THAT'S A SORT OF, IN SOME WAYS,
A NARROW VIEW, BECAUSE PATENTS
IS ONE PART OF THE WHOLE
ECOSYSTEM.
IT'S THE RESOURCES THAT HAVE TO
BE IN PLACE, THE INFRASTRUCTURE.
SO, FOR INSTANCE, AT THE
UNIVERSITY, THE TECH TRANSFER
OFFICES ARE AT THE VERY GATE
WHEN THE STUDENTS WANT AND THEY
COME UP WITH THEIR LITTLE
BRILLIANT IDEA AND THEY WANT TO
COMMERCIALIZE THAT.
THEN THEY NEED THE RESOURCES IN
PLACE, THE PERSONNEL WHO NEED TO
BE ABLE TO ASSIST THE STUDENT OR
THAT ENTREPRENEUR TO GET THAT
STARTUP TO MARKET.

Steve says SO IF IT'S A PIE,
PATENTS ARE ONE SLICE OF THE
PIE.
ARE THEY THE BIGGEST SLICE OF
THE PIE?

Giuseppina says IT'S A NECESSARY PART OF THE
PIE, BUT IT'S ONE PART OF IT.
I WOULDN'T SAY IT'S THE BIGGEST
BUT IT'S THE BEDROCK OF IT.

Steve says AND THE OTHER
SLICES... IF WE'RE GOING TO
TORTURE THIS METAPHOR... THE
OTHER SLICES, WHEN YOU TALK
ABOUT THE INFRASTRUCTURE, THAT
WOULD INCLUDE WHAT OTHER KINDS
OF THINGS?

Giuseppina says SO THE MONEY...

Steve says MONEY.

Giuseppina says MONEY.
WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT I SEE
HAPPEN WHERE STUDENTS GO SOUTH.
SO THEY GO TO THE VALLEY WHERE
THE MONEY... THERE'S MORE MONEY.

Steve says SILICON VALLEY.

Giuseppina says IN SILICON VALLEY.

Steve says YOU GUYS CALL IT THE
VALLEY.

Giuseppina says THE VALLEY.
I SPENT A YEAR AT STANFORD AND I
SAW STUDENTS THERE WORKING WITH
(INAUDIBLE) A BRAND NAME FOR
TECH STARTUPS.
THERE AIRBNB, REDDIT, THEY MADE
THOSE BIG COMPANIES THERE.
SO OUR STUDENTS GO DOWN THERE.
IT'S THE SAME TALENT, THE SAME
TECHNOLOGY, BUT THEY GET THE
MONEY QUICKER AND FASTER.

Steve says WE'RE GOING TO
EXPLORE HOW WE CAN DO BETTER ON
ALL THESE THINGS HERE.
DAN CIURIAK, CAN YOU EXPLAIN...
TALK TO US ABOUT THE ECONOMIC
IMPACT ON A COUNTRY THAT LAGS
BEHIND WHEN IT COMES TO THE
DEVELOPMENT OF INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY.

The caption changes to "Dan Ciuriak. Centre for International Governance Innovation."
Then, it changes again to "IT is IP."

Dan Ciuriak says OKAY.
SO THINK ABOUT THE TRADITIONAL
ECONOMY FIRST, WHICH IS BASED
UPON MACHINERY AND EQUIPMENT,
PHYSICAL CAPITAL.
THINK OF AN ECONOMY THAT DOESN'T
HAVE THAT KIND OF CAPITAL.
TALKING AFRICA.
TALK ABOUT AN ECONOMY THAT HAS
LOTS OF THAT CAPITAL.
THE UNITED STATES.
THAT'S THE IMPORTANCE OF HAVING
THE FUNDAMENTAL ESSENTIAL
CAPITAL OF THE ECONOMY OF YOUR
AGE.
NOW, FOR THE KNOWLEDGE-BASED
ECONOMY, AS PINA AND DAN HAVE
BEEN POINTING OUT, INTELLECTUAL
PROPERTY IS THE ESSENTIAL
CAPITAL.
SO IF YOU DON'T HAVE THAT
CAPITAL STOCK, YOU DON'T BUILD
COMPANIES ON IT, YOU DON'T HAVE
MARKET SHARE IN THAT WORLD.
THAT'S WHY WE'RE LAGGING.
NOW, THINKING FORWARD.
THE THING SHOWING HOCKEY STICK
GROWTH NOW IS DATA.
FOR THE DATA-DRIVEN ECONOMY,
WHICH IS THE FUTURE, AND THIS IS
GOING TO BE THE INTERNET OF
THINGS, IT'S GOOGLE, IT'S
FACEBOOK... DATA IS THE
ESSENTIAL CAPITAL STOCK AND IT'S
WHO CAPTURES THAT DATA AND
MONETIZES IT THAT WILL DOMINATE
THE WORLD.
IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE DATA
STOCKS, YOU WILL NOT HAVE MARKET
SHARE.

Steve says THE ECONOMY THAT HE
JUST DESCRIBED EARLIER, THE
MACHINERY AND SERVICE... GOODS
AND THAT TYPE OF THING, DOES
THAT ECONOMY, THE INDUSTRIAL
ECONOMY, IF I CAN PUT IT THAT
WAY, DOES THAT WORK DIFFERENTLY
THAN THE KNOWLEDGE-BASED
ECONOMY?

Dan Breznitz says NO LONGER.
SO, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU'RE A FARMER
AND YOU OWN... YOU THINK YOU OWN
A JOHN DEERE TRACTOR.
BACK IN THE GOOD OLD DAYS, YOU
ACTUALLY OWNED A TRACTOR AND YOU
CAN FIX IT, YOU CAN DO WHATEVER
YOU WANT WITH IT.
IN THE NEW KNOWLEDGE ECONOMY,
WHAT JOHN DEERE IS CLAIMING THAT
THEY OWN THE TRACTOR AND THEY
OWN ALL THE DATA FROM THE
TRACTOR.
NOW A COMPANY SAYS THEY OWN YOUR
SEEDS BECAUSE THEY'RE
GENETICALLY MODIFIED.
IN THE END, YOU, THE FARMER, THE
BEDROCK OF CANADA, IS ACTUALLY
AN EMPLOYEE, SOON TO BE VERY
BADLY PAID EMPLOYEE OF JOHN
DEERE AND THE SEED COMPANIES
THAT OWN THE KNOWLEDGE AND THE
DATA.
THEY BECOME RICH, AND YOU BECOME
AN EMPLOYEE.

Dan Ciuriak says MARGINALIZED.

Steve says MARGINALIZED.
THEY BECOME RICH, YOU BECOME
WELL-OFF?

Dan Ciuriak says NO.

Steve says NOT EVEN?

Dan Breznitz says IF YOU LOOK
AT THE U.S. AND YOU LOOK AT
FARMERS, FROM CHICKEN FARMERS TO
CORN FARMERS TO ANYTHING THAT
THOSE COMPANIES NOW CONTROL, YOU
BECOME A BADLY PAID EMPLOYEES.

Dan Ciuriak says THINK ABOUT
THE GAP IN PAY BETWEEN THE
C-SUITE AND THE SHOP FLOOR IS
GETTING WIDER AND WIDER AND YOU
BECOME THE GUY ON THE SHOP
FLOOR.

Steve says OBVIOUSLY NOT ENOUGH
TO JUST DEVELOP INTELLECTUAL
PROPERTIES, EQUALLY IMPORTANT TO
KEEP THEM HERE.

Giuseppina says THAT'S RIGHT.

Steve says DO YOU WANT TO GIVE
US HINTS ABOUT HOW WE CAN GET THAT?

Giuseppina says I'M TRYING TO DO IT MYSELF
THROUGH THE INNOVATION CLINIC.
I TALKED A BIT ABOUT SOME OF THE
PROBLEMS.
SO YOU DO NEED THE PATENTS, THE
I.P.
SO WITH PATENTS COME ALL THE
ASSOCIATED I.P. RIGHTS.
YOU ALSO NEED THE ECOSYSTEM.
WHAT WE'RE LACKING IS THAT
CULTURE OF INNOVATION IN CANADA.
IN MANY WAYS, WHEN WE LOOK TO
OTHER COUNTRIES OR WHEN I GO
BACK TO MY TIME IN THE VALLEY,
YOU SAW THAT THERE THE STUDENTS,
THEY GO TO LAW SCHOOL.
THEY WANT TO MAKE MILLIONS.
THEY WANT TO BE THE NEXT
FACEBOOK.
WHEN STUDENTS GO TO LAW SCHOOL
HERE, THEY WANT TO GO WORK IN A
LAW FIRM OR MAKE POLICY OR OTHER
OPTIONS, BUT THEY DON'T REALLY
COME TO LAW SCHOOL TO MAKE THAT
BIG COMPANY.
SO I THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE A
CULTURAL SHIFT, AND THAT'S
SOMETHING THAT TAKES TIME.
THAT'S SOMETHING MORE ON THE
GROUND.
BUT WHAT ALSO NEEDS TO HAPPEN IS
THAT WE NEED TO HAVE, AND
FINALLY NOW WITH BUDGET 2017
THERE WAS A PRONOUNCEMENT...

Steve says WE'RE GOING TO GET
TO THAT.
WE'RE GOING TO GET TO THAT IN A
SECOND.
LET ME GO BACK TO THE CULTURAL
THING HERE.
DAN CIURIAK, THAT SOUNDS LIKE A
25-YEAR PROJECT, TO GET STUDENTS
TO STOP THINKING ABOUT DOING
CONTRACT LAW AND GO OUT AND
FOUND THE NEXT FACEBOOK.

The caption changes to "Dan Ciuriak, @DanCiuriak."

Dan Ciuriak says IT VERY WELL
COULD BE.
A SHORTER GRAPHIC WITH LOTS OF
HOT SPOTS, OKAY?
THE REASON WHY THERE ARE HOT
SPOTS IS BECAUSE PEOPLE WHO WANT
TO DO INNOVATION CLUSTER WITH
EACH OTHER, AND SO THERE'S A BIG
FIRST MOVER ADVANTAGE TO THOSE
HOT SPOTS THAT ARE ESTABLISHED
BECAUSE THERE ARE LOTS OF SMART
PEOPLE, LOTS OF ENTREPRENEURIAL
PEOPLE ALREADY THERE.
AND WHEN YOU DO INNOVATION,
YOU'RE CONNECTING DOTS, AS IT
WERE.
SO IF YOU'VE GOT ONE SMART IDEA
HERE, ANOTHER SMART IDEA HERE...
THESE CONNECT TO MAKE A NEW ONE
AND THAT'S HOW INNOVATION
HAPPENS.
SO TO CREATE THAT DENSITY
ENTREPRENEURIAL ACTIVITY IN
CANADA FROM A VERY LOW BASE, IT
WILL BE A GENERATION'S WORTH.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: @theagenda, TVO.org, Facebook, YouTube, Periscope, Instagram."

Steve says LET'S DO A FEW
EXAMPLES HERE OF THE PHENOMENON
THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.
OTHER DAN, OVER HERE.
WE RECENTLY SAW BOMBARDIER, THEY
GOT A GREAT PLANE BUT THEY'VE
LOST THE OPPORTUNITY TO SELL IT
BECAUSE OF THE WHOLE TARIFF
THING IT'S INVOLVED WITH THE
U.S. RIGHT NOW SO THEY SOLD IT
OFF TO AIRBUS IN ORDER TO MAKE
THAT DEAL.
IS THAT AN EXAMPLE OF US COMING
UP WITH SOMETHING AND SOMEBODY
ELSE GETTING RICH OFF OF IT?

The caption changes to "Dan Breznitz, @dbreznitz."

Dan Breznitz says THAT'S JUST
ONE EXAMPLE.
I WANT TO GO BACK TO CULTURE AND
GIVE SOME HOPE.
AS I WAS DOING MY RESEARCH ON
ISRAEL, WHAT I FOUND FASCINATING
IS REPORT AFTER REPORT OF WHAT
WAS THEN CALLED OFFICE OF CHIEF
SCIENTIST, WHICH IS WHAT ISRAEL
HAS AND WE DON'T SHALL AND
THAT'S AN INNOVATION AGENCY,
MEANING A GOVERNMENT MINISTRY
WITH A BUDGET WHICH IS SET NOT
JUST YEAR BY YEAR AND ITS SOLE
PURPOSE IS TO DO INNOVATION
POLICY, NOT RESEARCH POLICY, NOT
EDUCATION POLICY.
INNOVATION POLICY.
AND REPORT AFTER REPORT CLAIMING
THAT ISRAELIS ARE JUST NOT
INNOVATIVE, NONE WANTS TO BE AN
ENTREPRENEUR, ALL OF THEM WANT
TO WORK FOR COMPANIES, EVEN WITH
ALL THE OPPORTUNITIES AND
GOVERNMENT HELP, THEY JUST DON'T
DO IT.
AND THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO.
AND LOOK WHAT HAPPENS IN ISRAEL
NOW?
LEADING THE WORLD WITH START.

Steve says CALLED THE STARTUP
NATION THERE.

Dan Breznitz says WHAT I WILL SAY, THAT WE HAVE
BEEN DOING A LOT OF INNOVATION.
SO IF YOU HAVE A MOBILE PHONE, I
THINK I SAW A MOBILE PHONE,
TECHNOLOGY DEVELOPED AT THE
UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO NOW OWNED
BY SOMEONE ELSE.
IT'S GREAT YOU MENTION BIG
COMPANIES.
OUR PROBLEM IS NOT JUST
ENTREPRENEURSHIP.
YOU LOOK ACROSS THE PRIVATE
SECTOR IN CANADA, AND APART FROM
ONE OR TWO COMPANIES, WE DO NOT
INNOVATE.
SO IF YOU LOOK BACK TO YOUR
MAPS, IT'S NOT JUST SILICON
VALLEY, IT'S ALSO GERMANY.
AND IN GERMANY, IT'S NOT THE
STARTUPS.
IT'S THE BIG COMPANIES.
BECAUSE THEY UNDERSTAND THAT IF
THEY WANT TO SURVIVE, THEY HAVE
TO INNOVATE.
CANADIAN COMPANIES, MANY OF
THEM, APART FROM THE ONE YOU
MENTIONED AND ONE MORE,
BASICALLY SEEM NOT TO
UNDERSTAND...

Steve says WHAT'S THE OTHER ONE?

Giuseppina says TOYS
'R' US AND SEARS ARE STRUGGLING
AND AMAZON IS DISRUPTING THAT MARKET.

Dan Breznitz says AMAZON IS
DISRUPTING THEIR MARKET AND HAS
DISRUPTED MANY OTHERS AND WILL
DISRUPT MORE, YEAH.
SO IF YOU DON'T INNOVATE IN
SERVICES, IN BUSINESS, IN
RETAIL, IN MANUFACTURING, YOU
WILL NOT SURVIVE.

Steve says PINA, DO YOU WANT TO
GIVE US AN EXAMPLE OF A COMPANY
THAT WAS HOME-GROWN, MADE IN
CANADA, CAME UP WITH SOMETHING
GREAT, AND THEN IT'S CREATING
REVENUE FOR SOMEONE ELSE NOW
BECAUSE WE LOST IT?

Giuseppina says OH, GOSH.
THERE'S QUITE A FEW OF THEM.

Steve says I'VE GOT A
BLACKBERRY IN MY POCKET.
MAYBE THAT'S ONE OF THEM?

Giuseppina says I THINK SO.
I THINK SO.

Dan Ciuriak says AN ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE
COMPANY DEVELOPED IN CANADA AND
BOUGHT OUT BY MICROSOFT AND IT'S
BEEN REPATRIATED TO REDMOND.

Steve says IT'S IN WASHINGTON NOW?

Dan Ciuriak says I BELIEVE SO.
LET ME GO BACK TO THIS ISSUE OF
BOMBARDIER AND THE C SERIES.
THE UNITED STATES... THE WHITE
HOUSE AT LEAST IS KEEN ON
REPATRIATING OLD INDUSTRIAL
ACTIVITY.
AND, YES, BOMBARDIER C SERIES
WILL APPARENTLY FIND A NEW HOME
IN SWEET HOME ALABAMA, BUT THAT
WILL BE THE PRODUCTION OF IT.
THE KEY PART OF IT, THE
INTELLECTUAL PART, THE
DEVELOPMENT OF THIS BETTER PLANE
WILL HOPEFULLY STAY IN CANADA.
SO BOMBARDIER SURVIVES BY HIVING
OFF THE ACTUAL PHYSICAL
PRODUCTION.
SO HERE'S A DIFFERENCE IN
STRATEGY.
WE ARE ACTUALLY I THINK IN THIS
PARTICULAR CASE RETAINING THE
KEY INNOVATIVE PART TO PRESERVE
THE VIABILITY OF THE PRODUCT, WE
ARE ALLOWING THE PHYSICAL
PRODUCTION TO GO DOWN TO THE STATES.

Steve says SURELY THAT'S A
SECOND BEST OPTION.
THE BEST OPTION WOULD HAVE BEEN
TO HAVE IT ALL HERE, RIGHT?

Dan Ciuriak says THE BEST OPTION WOULD BE NOT
TO HAVE THE TARIFFS.

Steve says NOT TO HAVE THE
TARIFFS IN THE FIRST PLACE.
PINA, YOU RAISED THE ISSUE OF
THE FEDERAL BUDGET LAST YEAR,
WHICH FOR THE FIRST TIME
INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY IS RIGHT
THERE, BAKED INTO THE BUDGET
PLAN.
WHEN YOU SAW THAT, WHAT DID YOU
THINK?

Giuseppina says HALLELUJAH.
SO MANY THRONE SPEECHES AND
BUDGETS PASSED ME BY.
I WASN'T TAKING OUT THE POPCORN
WATCHING THEM, ESPECIALLY FOR AN
I.P. SCHOLAR, YOU'D WANT TO SEE
THAT VISION AT THE VERY TOP
WHICH HAS BEEN LACKING FOR SO
MANY YEARS.

Steve says WHAT DOES IT SUGGEST
TO YOU?

The caption changes to "Ottawa to the rescue... at last."

Giuseppina says IT SUGGESTS THAT FINALLY THE
GOVERNMENT IS GETTING IT, AND
THAT FINALLY PERHAPS WE'RE GOING
TO ALL START TO, YOU KNOW, COME
UP WITH THAT HYMN BOOK AND START
SINGING THE SAME TUNE.
BECAUSE I THINK ALSO, I WORKED
IN OTTAWA FOR A BIT, AND THERE
THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENT
DEPARTMENTS THAT ALL DEAL WITH
I.P., FRANKLY, AND THEY JUST
DON'T REALIZE IT.
YOU HAVE THE USUALLY SUSPECT
SHOPS IN OTTAWA THAT DEAL WITH
I.P. AND I THINK IT NEEDS TO BE
MORE PERVASIVE ACROSS OTTAWA,
NOT HAVE THE CURRENT APPROACH.
A VISION FROM THE TOP IS WHAT WE
NEED.
BUT BACKING THAT VISION, THE
RESOURCES NEED TO COME.
SO LIKE WHAT YOU SUGGESTED, DAN,
WITH ISRAEL, WHERE YEAR AFTER
YEAR, ISRAEL COMMITS TO THIS.
IT CAN'T BE A ONE-OFF NOW AND
NOT HAVE A SUSTAINABLE STRATEGY
GOING FORWARD.
IT'S TOO IMPORTANT FOR IT NOT TO
BE THE CASE.

Steve says SO THEY GET IT, DAN.
THEY GET IN PRINCIPLE THAT I.P.
IS NOW ON THE AGENDA, IF I CAN
USE THAT EXPRESSION.
WHAT SPECIFICALLY DID THEY DO?

Dan Ciuriak says IN TERMS OF
THE CLUSTERING INITIATIVE, THEY
ARE POURING MONEY INTO CLUSTERS.
THE QUESTION IS: IS THERE
SUFFICIENT SCALE THERE?
IF YOU THINK ABOUT, FOR EXAMPLE,
WHAT ELON MUSK WILL BE PUTTING
INTO ONE OF HIS PROJECTS, THE
AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT WE'RE
PUTTING INTO CLUSTERS ACROSS
CANADA PALES IN COMPARISON.

Steve says WE HAVE 950 MILLION BUCKS.
IS THAT CHICKEN FEED?

[MIXED VOICES]

Dan Breznitz says LET ME BE
VERY, VERY, VERY CLEAR, OKAY?
IF YOU REMEMBER BUDGET BY BUDGET
OF THIS GOVERNMENT, WE HAD A
CLUSTER FROM THE BEGINNING.
WE JUST DIDN'T HAVE SUPER, THEY
WERE CALLED CLUSTERS, AND THEY
HAVE 800 INSTEAD OF 950.
NOW, DIVIDE 950 BY FIVE, THEN
PUT IT ALL ACROSS CANADA.
IT'S CHICKEN FEED.

Giuseppina says IT
IS CHICKEN FEED.

Steve says THEY DID GET IT BUT
THEY DIDN'T GET IT ENOUGH.

Dan Breznitz says I WOULD GO FARTHER, WITH ALL
DUE RESPECT TO OUR BELOVED
GOVERNMENT.
I ACTUALLY THINK I SAID... AND
MINISTER BAINS GETS IT.

Steve says IT IS NAVDEEP BAINS,
THE MINISTER IN CHARGE.

Dan Breznitz says HOWEVER, I LOOK AT THE
MINISTRY OF FINANCE AND OUR
BELOVED PRIME MINISTER AND I
DON'T SEE THEM GIVING ANY NEW
RESOURCES.
WHAT I SEE IS A LOT OF TALK.
BUT I LOOK AT THE BUDGET AND
WORKING IN PUBLIC POLICY, I
BELIEVE IT ONLY WHEN YOU GIVE
RESOURCES YOU'RE SERIOUS ABOUT
SOMETHING AS A POLITICIAN.
I DON'T SEE IT IN THE BUDGET.

Steve says DAN CIURIAK THEY
HAVE ADVANCED MANUFACTURING
THEY'RE GOING TO FUND, CLEAN
TECH, DIGITAL TECHNOLOGY, CLEAN
RESOURCES, INFRASTRUCTURE,
TRANSPORTATION... SOUNDS LIKE A
PRETTY GOOD LIST.

Dan Ciuriak says THE LIST IS
CORRECT.
IT'S A QUESTION OF THE SCALE, OF
THE MONEY THAT YOU'RE PUTTING
IN.
BUT LET ME FLIP BACK TO THE
QUESTION OF DATA.
WE ARE SIGNING ON TO
INTERNATIONAL TREATIES WHERE WE
AGREE THAT DATA SHOULD BE ABLE
TO FLOW FREELY ACROSS BORDERS
WITH NO DATA LOCALIZATION.
SO GO BACK TO DAN'S JOHN DEERE
TRACTOR.
IT MEANS THAT THE DATA GENERATED
IN CANADA SHOULD FLOW FREELY
ACROSS BORDERS TO WHOEVER CAN
CAPTURE THAT AND IS NOT RETAINED
IN CANADA, IS NOT CAPITALIZED IN
CANADA, IT'S NOT MONETIZED IN
CANADA.
NOW, IF WE WERE TO GO BACK 100
YEARS AND SAY, WELL, WE SHOULD
HAVE A FREE FLOW OF OIL ACROSS
BORDERS AND ANYONE SHOULD BE
ABLE TO COME IN HERE AND TAKE
THE OIL ROYALTY-FREE, THAT
WOULDN'T SOUND LIKE SUCH A GOOD
IDEA.

Steve says THAT WOULDN'T FLY.

Dan Ciuriak says I'M NOT SAYING WE SHOULD PUT
A TAX ON DATA OR TRY TO CHARGE
FOR IT BECAUSE CANADIANS GET
BENEFITS FROM BEING ABLE TO USE
GOOGLE, RIGHT, AND FROM USING
FACEBOOK.
BUT THE ISSUE ACROSS THE BOARD,
WHEN WE TALK ABOUT SMART HOUSES,
SMART CARS, SMART TRACTORS, IS
WHO CAPTURES THAT DATA AND IF
CANADA DOES NOT CAPTURE ITS FAIR
SHARE OF IT, WE WILL NOT HAVE A
FOOTHOLD IN THE FUTURE
DATA-DRIVEN ECONOMY, AND THAT IS
GOING TO DOMINATE.
RIGHT NOW...

Giuseppina says THAT
COMES DOWN TO THE I.P., RIGHT?
THE I.P. IS THE BEDROCK TO IT.
GOING BACK TO THE SUPERCLUSTERS,
A.I. IS ONE OF THEM.

Steve says ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.

Giuseppina says ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.
SO WHAT MIGHT BE ENCOURAGING IS
THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS MANDATED
THAT THEY ALL HAVE AN I.P.
STRATEGY.
SO, OKAY, FINALLY, RIGHT?

Steve says THAT'S GOOD.

Giuseppina says THAT'S GOOD.

Dan Ciuriak says ONLY A FEW
YEARS TOO LATE.

Giuseppina says WHAT
ALSO MIGHT BE PROBLEMATIC OR AT
LEAST IT GIVES ME A SENSE OF
PAUSE IS WHEN I SEE THE NUMBER
OF PARTNERS THAT THESE
SUPERCLUSTERS ARE BRINGING IN.
WHILE I'M ALL ABOUT INCLUSIVITY
AND MORE COOPERATION, 70, 80
PARTNERS, SOME OF THEM UPWARDS
OF HUNDREDS, HOW DO YOU FIGURE
OUT THE I.P. THERE?
WHO IS GOING TO OWN IT?
THEY NEED TO BE CLEAR FROM THE
GET-GO.
WE DON'T WANT LITIGATION COMING
OUT OF THESE SUPERCLUSTERS,
RIGHT?

Steve says CAN I BRING IT BACK
TO THE MONEY FOR A SECOND?
IT'S ALMOST A BILLION DOLLARS,
ADMITTEDLY, DIVIDED BY REGIONS
AND SECTORS, OKAY, IT'S NOT THAT
MUCH MONEY, YOU SUGGEST, AT THE
END OF THE DAY.
IF THEY WERE REALLY SERIOUS
ABOUT IT, WHAT KIND OF NUT ARE
WE LOOKING AT?

Giuseppina says A WAY BIGGER NUT.
A WALNUT, AT LEAST.

[LAUGHTER]

Steve says THAT'S FUNNY.

Dan Breznitz says I'M JUST
USING ISRAEL AGAIN BECAUSE
PEOPLE HAVE BEEN CONSTANTLY
HARPING ON ISRAEL.
THE ISRAELI INNOVATION AGENCY
HAVE, MORE OR LESS, HALF
A BILLION A YEAR TO SUPPORT ITS
ACTIVITIES, AND EVERY YEAR IT
GOES SLIGHTLY UP.

Steve says IN A COUNTRY OF
9 MILLION PEOPLE?

Dan Breznitz says IT'S TORONTO.

Steve says A COUNTRY THE SIZE
OF TORONTO.

Dan Breznitz says BETTER THAN TORONTO.
THEY HAVE HALF A BILLION.
AND THIS IS JUST ONE GOVERNMENT
AGENCY.
SO NOW LET'S DIVIDE IT TO
CANADA.
WE SHOULD START AT LEAST BY
3 BILLION, PROBABLY MORE.
WE ARE ALSO A VERY BIG QUESTION.
WE HAVE MORE POTENTIAL THAN
ISRAEL BECAUSE WE ARE A VERY BIG
COUNTRY.

Steve says CAN I CHALLENGE THAT
A BIT, DAN?
BECAUSE THE ISRAELI MILITARY IS
SO ENGRAINED INTO EVERY ASPECT
OF SOCIETY, THE INNOVATION AND
HIGH-TECH POSSIBILITIES IN
ISRAEL, ENCOURAGED BY THE
MILITARY... I MEAN, WE JUST
DON'T HAVE THAT KIND OF THING
HERE.
THE MILITARY IS NOT AS SINGULAR
A FEATURE IN CANADA AS IT IS
CLEARLY IN ISRAEL.
WE'RE IN DIFFERENT
NEIGHBOURHOODS.
DOES THAT GIVE IN SOME ODD KIND
OF WAY ISRAEL AN ADVANTAGE, AN
IMPERATIVE, IF YOU LIKE, TO GO
MORE IN ON THIS?

Dan Breznitz says I WOULD SAY IT GIVES AN IMPERATIVE.

Steve says YES.

Dan Breznitz says AND IT HAS BEEN GIVING AN
IMPERATIVE FOR MANY YEARS.
HOWEVER, THAT IMPERATIVE FOR
MANY YEARS WAS NOT USED.
SO WHAT IS INTERESTING ABOUT
MANY OF THE FIGURES THAT YOU
SHOWED, IF YOU LOOK AT ISRAEL,
JUST AT THE TIME THAT THEY
DECIDED TO HAVE AN INNOVATION
AGENDA, THEY LOOKED JUST LIKE
CANADA.
ALMOST ALL THE FIGURES, THERE'S
EXACTLY WHERE ISRAEL WAS.
AND WITHIN 20 YEARS, WE'RE NOW
NUMBER ONE ON MANY THINGS.
THE MILITARY WAS ALWAYS THERE.
SO THE QUESTION IS NOT WHAT
RESOURCES YOU HAVE.
WE HAVE WONDERFUL AGRI
TECHNOLOGY, MINING AND OIL
TECHNOLOGY.
DO WE USE THEM TO BECOME AN
INNOVATION ECONOMY OR NOT?
RIGHT NOW WE DON'T.

Giuseppina says IT'S
A PRETTY GOOD START.
IF YOU LOOK AT A.I., THEY'VE
ALSO COMMITTED 30 MILLION TO THE
VECTOR HERE IN TORONTO,
125 MILLION FOR A.I. GENERALLY
FEDERALLY, SO I THINK IF WE TRY
AND ORGANIZE THE SUPERCLUSTERS
AND HAVE OTHER MONIES COMING IN
THROUGH OTHER INITIATIVES, MAYBE
THAT'S THE WAY TO GO.

Dan Ciuriak says IN TERMS OF
THE RATIONALE FOR GOVERNMENT
ENGAGEMENT, THERE HAS TO BE SOME
SORT OF A MARKET FAILURE, AS IT
WERE, RIGHT?
THE MARKET IS JUST NOT FILLING
IN THE GAPS.
AND CANADA HAS GOT VERY WEAK
VENTURE CAPITAL.
ISRAEL PROBABLY HAS GOT THE BEST
ACCESS TO VENTURE CAPITAL IN THE
WORLD.

Dan Breznitz says THANKS TO THE
GOVERNMENT.

Dan Ciuriak says THANKS TO THE
GOVERNMENT BUT ALSO PRIVATE.

Dan Breznitz says THERE WAS
NOTHING IN ISRAEL UNTIL THE
GOVERNMENT TRIED ONCE, TRIED
TWICE, TRIED THRICE UNTIL THEY
SUCCEEDED.

Steve says BUT THERE'S A
DIFFERENT ATTITUDE TO THESE
KINDS OF THINGS IN ISRAEL.
IT'S BEEN MANY YEARS SINCE I'VE
BEEN THERE.
I REMEMBER TALKING TO HIGH-TECH
PEOPLE THE LAST TIME I WAS
THERE, AND THEY SAID, WE
ENCOURAGE FAILURE THERE.
WE LOVE IT WHEN PEOPLE TRY AND
FAIL AND FAIL AND FAIL AGAIN,
BECAUSE THEY LEARN STUFF AND
EVENTUALLY THEY'LL SUCCEED.

Giuseppina says THAT'S RIGHT.

The caption changes to "Who does IP well?"

Steve says IN CANADA, WE ABHOR
FAILURE ALL THE TIME UNDER ANY
CIRCUMSTANCES AND WE SHAME
PEOPLE WHO DO IT.

Giuseppina says WE
PUT OUR TAIL BETWEEN THE LEGS
AND RUN OFF AND THAT'S THE END
OF THE START OFF.

Steve says THAT'S WHAT I MEANT
BY CULTURAL DIFFERENCES.

Giuseppina says AND IN THE VALLEY.
THERE'S BADGES OF HONOUR YOU'VE
BEEN THERE IN THE TRENCHES.

Steve says NOT HERE.
HOW DO WE CHANGE THAT CULTURE?

Giuseppina says IT'S GOING BACK TO THE INITIAL CONVERSATION WE HAD, RIGHT?
WE NEED TO, AND LIKE WE SAID, IT
MAY TAKE 25 YEARS TO DO IT.
I THINK WE NEED TO START.
AND ANIMATING ALL OF THAT, IT
GOES BACK TO THE I.P. AND HAVING
AWARENESS.
SO HOPEFULLY NOW AT THE VERY
START WE HAVE THE GOVERNMENT
SAYING, I.P. IS IMPORTANT, WE'RE
PUTTING MONEY BEHIND IT, AND ON
THE GROUND, THEY ALSO NEED TO BE
MINDFUL OF WHAT'S GOING ON.
AND THERE I HAVE TO SAY THROUGH
MY OWN WORK, I HAVEN'T BEEN
HAPPY WITH WHAT I'VE BEEN
SEEING.

Steve says DAN?

Dan Breznitz says I WOULD ALSO
SAY WE HAVE TO BE SMART.
AS I SAID ALL OUR ACES ARE
ALREADY OWNED.
EVEN IF WE START TO PRODUCE I.P.
LIKE THERE'S NO TOMORROW, WE
WON'T PRODUCE AS MUCH AS CHINA
AND THE U.S.
WHAT WE SHOULD DO, BECAUSE
WE'RE GOOD AT, WE'RE CANADIAN
PEOPLE, TRUST US, IS CHANGING
THE RULES OF THE GAME.
SO THROUGH THE STANDARDS COUNCIL
OF CANADA AND THROUGH OTHER
ORGANIZATIONS IN OTTAWA, WE CAN
ACTUALLY START TO HAVE AN
INTERNATIONAL VOICE ABOUT HOW
YOU GOVERN I.P.
AND WE HAVE TO, BECAUSE FOR THE
NEXT 25 YEARS, EVEN IF ALL MY
STUDENTS WILL START TO DO
PATENTS ONCE A WEEK, WE STILL
WILL NOT HAVE ENOUGH I.P.
WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT HOW WE
CHANGE THE GAME, NOT JUST HOW WE
CHANGE HOW MUCH MONEY WE HAVE IN
THE BANK.

The caption changes to "Learning to climb the IP mountain."

Steve says IN WHICH CASE,
YOU'VE MENTIONED ISRAEL A FEW
TIMES HERE TONIGHT.
DAN, WHAT OTHER COUNTRY AROUND
THE WORLD SHOULD WE TRY TO... I
DON'T KNOW ABOUT COPY... BUT AT
LEAST LEARN SOME LESSONS FROM?

Dan Ciuriak says I WOULD LOOK
AT GERMANY.
GERMANY HAS GOT AN INTERESTING
APPROACH TO INNOVATION.
THEY DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE
GOVERNMENT SUPPORT IN THE SENSE
OF R and D TAX CREDITS.
WHAT GERMANY HAS GOT IS A LOT OF
GOVERNMENT... QUASI GOVERNMENT
CO-INVESTMENT.
I THINK THAT'S AN APPROACH WHICH
IS VIABLE FOR CANADA, ESPECIALLY
IN VIEW OF THE POSSIBILITY OF
HAVING TARIFFS PUTTING ON
CANADIAN PRODUCTS IF THEY ARE
SEEN TO BE SUBSIDIZED BY THE
GOVERNMENT.
SO I THINK WE HAVE TO HAVE
STRONGER PUBLIC LABS SECTOR AND
STRONGER GOVERNMENT ENGAGEMENT
IN PRODUCTS WHICH THE PRIVATE
SECTOR MAY NOT FIND ATTRACTIVE
BUT WHICH ACTUALLY MAKE SENSE
FROM A LONG-TERM PERSPECTIVE.
THE C SERIES IS ACTUALLY A GOOD
EXAMPLE OF THAT.
IT ALMOST BROKE THE BANK FOR
BOMBARDIER, YET IT IS A BETTER
PLANE.
GOOD TECHNOLOGY CAN BE HARD TO
PRODUCE AND MAY STRETCH THE
CAPABILITIES OF THE PRIVATE
SECTOR.
THAT'S EXACTLY WHERE THE PUBLIC
SECTOR SHOULD BE GOING.
SO I WOULD FOCUS ON
CO-INVESTMENT, I WOULD FOCUS ON
DEVELOPING THE KINDS OF PRODUCTS
WHICH ARE PRETTY COMPETITIVE, AS
IT WERE, AND CANADA CAN DO THAT
AND CANADA HAS HAD A GOOD TRACK
RECORD IN THAT AREA AND IT'S
VERY MUCH LIKE THE GERMAN MODEL.

Steve says A LOT OF TALK ABOUT
ISRAEL, A LOT OF TALK NOW ABOUT
ISRAEL.
CHINA.
FINLAND?

Dan Breznitz says I WOULD SAY
FINLAND AND CHINA FOR TWO VERY
DIFFERENT REASONS.

Steve says GO AHEAD.

Dan Breznitz says FIRST OF ALL, FINLAND IS A
BIG NORTHERN COUNTRY, WHICH
DOESN'T HAVE A LOT OF
POPULATION.

Steve says SMALL NORTHERN COUNTRY.

Dan Breznitz says LOOK AT THE MAP.
IT'S SMALL COMPARED TO CANADA,
BUT REMEMBER, WE LIKE TO THINK
OF OURSELVES AS SMALL.
WE HAVE TO DECIDE, ARE WE SMALL?
ARE WE BIG?
ARE WE IN THE MIDDLE?
EVERY CONVERSATION WE CLAIM
WE'RE SOMETHING ELSE.
FINLAND, VERY SMALL POPULATION,
VERY COLD.
A LOT OF COMMODITIES.
ONE OF THEIR LEADERS ONCE QUIT,
THAT FINLAND SHOULD NEVER EXPORT
ANYTHING THAT IS SMALLER THAN AN
ELEPHANT.
AND WITHIN SEVEN YEARS THEY HAD
NOKIA, LIKE BLACKBERRY, LIKE
OTHERS, FOR A WHILE RULED THE...

Steve says FINLAND HAS MORE
START-UPS THAN ALMOST ANY COUNTRY
IN THE WORLD?

Dan Breznitz says IN TERMS OF POPULATION.

Steve says PER CAPITA.

Dan Breznitz says PER CAPITA, YEAH.
DO YOU PLAY ANY GAMES ON YOUR
MOBILE PHONE?

Steve says NO.
I WORK ALL THE TIME.

The caption changes to "Subscribe to The Agenda Podcasts: tvo.org/theagenda."

Dan Breznitz says I KNOW.
SO WHEN YOU WORK ALL THE TIME
AND FIGURE OUT THE NEW
TECHNOLOGY ON YOUR PHONE, YOU
ARE HELPING THE FINNISH ECONOMY
BECAUSE MOST OF THE GAMES YOU
PLAY, THE MOST POPULAR GAMES,
ALMOST ALL OF THEM COME FROM
FINLAND, FOR EXAMPLE, FROM
HELSINKI.
AGAIN, GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION.
AGAIN, BY THE WAY, NOT ALONE, IN
CONSULTATION WITH THE UNIONS AND
THE WORKERS AND THE EMPLOYERS,
FIGURING OUT THAT THIS IS THE
FUTURE OF THE COUNTRY.
WHAT I WILL SAY THAT WE NEED TO
LEARN ABOUT CHINA IS CHINA
UNDERSTOOD I.P., ALSO UNDERSTOOD
THAT IT'S VERY WEAK ON I.P.
SO THEY DID A FEW THINGS:
FIRSTLY, EDUCATED EVERYBODY.
AND WHEN I MEAN EVERYBODY, I
MEAN EVERYBODY.
IN HIGH SCHOOL YOU ASK QUESTIONS
ABOUT I.P.
THEY ALSO THEN WENT TO ALL THE
INTERNATIONAL BODIES AND STARTED
TO POPULATE THEM WITH CHINESE.
THEY ALSO WENT TO ALL THE
CHINESE COMPANIES, EDUCATED THEM
ON I.P. AND HELPED THEM TO GO TO
THOSE INTERNATIONAL FORUMS
KNOWING THAT WHAT THEY REALLY
WANT TO ACHIEVE IS A LOWERING OF
THE PRICE OF I.P.
SO YOUR METAPHOR ABOUT OIL.
YES, IT WOULD BE NICE IF PEOPLE
PAY OR NOT PAY ABOUT THAT,
RIGHT?
BUT IT'S MUCH MORE INTERESTING
IF WE CAN CHOOSE WHAT KIND OF
PRICES WE PAY, WHETHER WE KNOW
WE OWN THE OIL OR WE KNOW THE
TECHNOLOGY OF HOW TO TAKE THE
OIL OUT OF THE GROUND, RIGHT?
THAT'S WHERE WE NEED TO BE.

Steve says I REMEMBER EARLIER
IN THE PROGRAM WE PUT UP THAT
LIST OF PATENTS PER CAPITA AND
CANADA WAS WELL DOWN THE LIST.
LET ME ASK YOU: HOW EXPENSIVE IS
IT TO TRY TO PATENT SOMETHING IN
CANADA?

Giuseppina says 20,000 dollars AT LEAST, UPWARDS OF
THAT.
THE COSTS ARE PROHIBITIVE.
WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE
STUDENTS... WHEN WE GO BACK TO
REALLY ON THE GROUND, WHERE ARE
THESE INVENTIONS TAKING PLACE?
REALLY, THE UNIVERSITIES ARE ONE
OF THE GREATEST HUBS OF IT.
SO HERE YOU HAVE STUDENTS
ALREADY TRYING TO PAY DOWN THEIR
DEBT FOR GETTING THEMSELVES
THROUGH SCHOOL, THEY HAVE THIS
INVENTION, HOW CAN THEY AFFORD
20,000 dollars TO START UP THEIR
COMPANY?
THEY CAN'T.

Steve says SO THAT'S
PROHIBITIVE TO START WITH.

Giuseppina says IT'S PROHIBITIVE TO START
WITH.
AND THAT TENDS TO ALREADY THERE
FROM THE GATE STIFLE INNOVATION.

Steve says LET ME READ YOU THIS
QUOTE HERE FROM THE CANADIAN
INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY OFFICE
WHERE THEY SAY...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "None of my business, really?" The quote reads "83 percent of Canadian small and medium enterprises report that 'IP was not relevant to their business when citing the reasons for not seeking IP rights.'"
Quoted from Canadian Intellectual Property Office. 2017.

Giuseppina says IT
DRIVES ME NUTS WHEN I HEAR THAT.

Steve says WHAT DO YOU INFER
FROM THAT?

Giuseppina says I INFER THEY DON'T GET THAT
THEY HAVE I.P. TO BEGIN WITH,
AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT I DEAL
WITH ALL THE TIME.
IF YOU BELIEVE IT, EVEN IF
STANFORD, I WAS THERE LEADING
COMPANIES, THESE STARTUPS,
DIDN'T EVEN HEAR ABOUT THE WORD
I.P.
WHENEVER YOU HEAR ABOUT I.P.,
THEY THINK OF THAT AS A BARRIER.
THAT'S GOING TO COST ME.
THAT'S TROUBLE.
THEY SHOULD SEE IT AS AN ENABLER
OF CHANGE, AN ENABLER TO HELP
THEIR COMPANY.
NEXT THING YOU KNOW THEY'RE
GOING TO BE SLAPPED WITH A
LAWSUIT.
SO I USUALLY GET INTO ARGUMENTS,
I REALLY TRY TO VOICE MY
CONCERNS ABOUT THEIR APPROACH
WHEN THEY DON'T THINK ABOUT THE
I.P.
IT HAS TO BE THOUGHT OF.
THE I.P. LAWYERS HAVE TO BE
THERE AT THE TABLE WITH THE
BUSINESS, WITH THE INVENTION,
WITH THE SCIENTISTS, ALL OF THEM
TOGETHER AT THE BEGINNING.

Dan Breznitz says LET ME GIVE
YOU AN EXAMPLE FROM CHINA.
REMEMBER DVDs?

Steve says SURE.

Dan Breznitz says THE CHINESE ACTUALLY PRODUCED
MOST OF THE DVDs IN THE WORLD.
BUT AS THEY WERE PRODUCING THEM
AND PRODUCING THEM AND PRODUCING
THEM, THEY FOUND OUT THEY WERE
PAYING MORE AND MORE AND MORE.
AS THE PRICE OF THE D.V.D. WENT
DOWN, THE PEOPLE WHO OWNED THE
I.P.
AT ONE POINT THEY FORMED I.P.
THEY JUST PRODUCED PLASTIC
DVDs, RIGHT?
THEY FOUND OUT THAT IT IS,
BECAUSE THEY WON.
THERE WAS NO LOSS.
BUT IN ORDER TO PRODUCE A DVD,
THEY HAD TO PAY TO THE OWNERS OF
THE DVD TECHNOLOGY, AND AT SOME
POINT, THAT PAYMENT WAS MORE
THAN THEIR PROFIT.
SO THOSE SMALL CANADIAN
COMPANIES THINK THAT I.P. IS NOT
PART OF THE GAME UNTIL THEY WILL
SIT DOWN AND LOOK AT THEIR COSTS
AND WILL FIGURE OUT THAT THEY
PAY MORE FOR I.P. THAN THEY PAY
FOR METAL, PLASTIC, OR WOOD.

Steve says GO AHEAD, DAN.

Dan Ciuriak says CAN I JUMP IN,
STEVE?
IN TERMS OF THE SHARE, OKAY?
THERE'S A STATISTIC WHICH IS
REALLY STRIKING AND THAT IS THE
PERCENTAGE OF THE MARKET
CAPITALIZATION OF THE S and P 500 IN
THE UNITED STATES WHICH IS
ATTRIBUTED TO INTANGIBLE
CAPITAL, IN THE 1970s, IT WAS
DOWN AROUND 17.5 percent.
THE 820 RULE, IT COULD BE
IGNORED.
TODAY IT'S AROUND 90 percent.

Steve says HOW MUCH?

Dan Ciuriak says 90 percent.
AND THAT OF COURSE IS
TRADEMARKS, GOODWILL AND THOSE
THINGS, BUT MUCH OF IT IS
INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY, AND A
LARGE AND GROWING PART IS DATA.
AND SO IF YOU THINK ABOUT, CAN
YOU IGNORE IT?
WELL, IF IT'S THE LARGEST PART
OF YOUR CAPITAL STOCK OF THE
FUTURE ECONOMY, YOU CANNOT
IGNORE IT.
SO, YES...

Steve says INTANGIBLE CAPITAL?

Dan Ciuriak says YES.

Steve says MEANING WHAT?

Dan Ciuriak says IT MEANS YOU'VE GOT
REPLACEMENT COST CAPITAL, SO
YOUR EQUIPMENT, YOU SPEND SOME
MONEY TO PUT IT IN THERE, YOU
DEPRECIATE IT.
ON TOP OF THAT THE MARKET THEN
PUTS A CAPITAL VALUE ON YOUR
COMPANY, WHICH IS WAY LARGER,
AND THAT IS THE INTANGIBLE
CAPITAL AND THAT IS HUGE.
90 percent NOW OF THE S and P 500.

Dan Breznitz says I WOULD ALSO
SAY THE TRADEMARKS ARE ACTUALLY
INTELLECTUAL CAPITAL.

Giuseppina says OF COURSE.

Dan Breznitz says PEOPLE THINK
IT'S PATENT.
NO, INTELLECTUAL CAPITAL IS
TRADEMARKS, TRADE SECRETS,
COPYRIGHTS, KNOWLEDGE... ALL THE
THINGS THAT YOU CAN ACTUALLY USE
IN ORDER TO MAKE MONEY AND MAKE
YOUR PRODUCT.

Steve says IN OUR LAST COUPLE
OF MINUTES, LET'S THROW SOME
IDEAS OUT HERE.
YOU WANT PEOPLE TO SEE THAT I.P.
IN SOME RESPECTS NEEDS A SEAT AT
THE TABLE.
IT HAS TO BE RIGHT AT THE TOP.

Giuseppina says ABSOLUTELY.

Steve says HOW ARE YOU GETTING
PEOPLE TO REALIZE THAT?

Giuseppina says I'M STARTING FROM THE GRASSROOTS.
THE INNOVATION CLINIC IS
SOMETHING I WANT TO TALK ABOUT
WHICH IS WHERE I HAVE THE LAW
STUDENTS WHO ARE PAIRED UP WITH
ENTREPRENEURS AND INVENTORS, SO
AT THE SCHOOL OF ENGINEERING WE
GET REFERRALS FROM INNOVATION,
YORK, ALSO CIGI JUST PARTNERED
WITH US.
WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO IS HAVE
STUDENTS HELP THESE INVENTORS
START UP THEIR COMPANIES.
WHAT WE DO IS, WE TALKED ABOUT
20,000 dollars, PROHIBITIVE COSTS.
WE'RE GOING TO CUT THOSE COSTS
BECAUSE THE STUDENTS DO THE WORK
FOR FREE AND THERE'S A
SUPERVISING LAW FIRM WHICH IS
ABLE TO OVERSEE ALL OF THIS WORK
AND GIVE THESE COMPANIES A
CHANCE, THESE STUDENTS A CHANCE
TO START UP, AND THEY'RE DOING
REALLY WELL, ACTUALLY.
THEY'RE ALREADY PAYING BILLS,
MANY OF THESE COMPANIES.
ONE OF THEM HAS MORE THAN 50
EMPLOYEES.
THEY'RE WINNING COMPETITIONS.

Steve says WHAT'S THAT ONE ABOUT?
ARE YOU ALLOWED TO SAY WHAT THE
PRODUCT IS?

Giuseppina says I CAN SAY WHAT THE PRODUCT IS.
ONE IS DEALING WITH
FREEZE-DRYING FOOD.
SO TRYING TO TACKLE THE BIG
PROBLEM OF GLOBAL HUNGER TO THE
PROBLEM IN OUR HOMES OF FOOD
WASTAGE.
THAT'S ONE OF THEM.
ANOTHER ONE ACTUALLY IS REALLY
COOL IS LOOKING AT WORK AROUND
ISSUES IN BUILDING... IN
CONSTRUCTION SITES.
SO YOU FIGURE OUT THAT THERE'S A
PROBLEM BEFORE YOU CUT THE
RIBBON, AND SO THIS IS USING
TECHNOLOGY, AUGMENTED REALITY TO
FIGURE THAT OUT.
THESE ARE ALL STUDENTS AT YORK
THAT FIGURED THIS OUT.

The caption changes to "Producer: Wodek Szemberg, @wodekszemberg."

Steve says OKAY.
YOU KNOW WHAT?
I SUSPECT THAT ANYBODY STILL
WATCHING US WHO MAY NOT HAVE
KNOWN VERY MUCH ABOUT ALL OF
THIS AT THE BEGINNING OF THE
HOUR, THEY'RE EXPERTS NOW
BECAUSE YOU GUYS WERE GREAT.
YOU REALLY EXPLAINED THIS IN A
FANTASTIC WAY.
MR. DIRECTOR, CAN WE THANK DAN
CIURIAK, SENIOR FELLOW AT CIGI,
A FORMER DEPUTY CHIEF ECONOMIST
AT THE DEPARTMENT OF FOREIGN
AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE.
THERE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE
TABLE, GIUSEPPINA D'AGOSTINO,
FOUNDER OF THE INTELLECTUAL
PROPERTY LAW AT OSGOODE LAW
SCHOOL, AND DAN BREZNITZ, CHAIR
OF INNOVATION STUDIES AND THE
CO-DIRECTOR OF THE INNOVATION
POLICY LAB AT THE MUNK SCHOOL OF
GLOBAL AFFAIRS AT THE U OF T.
THANKS TO THE THREE OF YOU FOR
JOINING US AT TVO TONIGHT.

Giuseppina says IT'S A PLEASURE.

Dan Ciuriak says THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

Watch: Canada's Future Depends on IT