Transcript: Turning Over a New Leaf | Sep 27, 2017

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and spotted purple tie.

A caption on screen reads "Turning over a new leaf."

Steve says HE HAD QUITE A RUN IN
POLITICS, BECOMING A TRAILBLAZER
ALONG THE WAY.
TWENTY YEARS AGO, GLEN MURRAY
WAS NOT ONLY THE MAYOR OF
WINNIPEG, BUT HE WAS ALSO THE
FIRST OPENLY GAY MAYOR OF ANY
BIG NORTH AMERICAN CITY.
SEVEN YEARS AGO, HE GOT HIMSELF
ELECTED AS THE MPP FOR TORONTO
CENTRE, EVENTUALLY HOLDING THREE
CABINET PORTFOLIOS, INCLUDING
ENVIRONMENT AND CLIMATE CHANGE,
WHERE HE BROUGHT IN ONTARIO'S
NEW CAP-AND-TRADE SYSTEM.
HE ANNOUNCED HIS DEPARTURE FROM
POLITICS AT THE BEGINNING OF
SEPTEMBER, SO WE THOUGHT WE'D
INVITE HIM IN TO FIND OUT WHY.
HERE'S GLEN MURRAY.

Glen is in his mid-fifties, clean-shaven, with short gray hair. He's wearing a gray suit, blue shirt, and golden tie.

Steve continues NICE TO HAVE YOU BACK IN THAT
CHAIR AGAIN.

Glen says THANK YOU, STEVE.

Steve says LET'S START RIGHT
WHERE THE INTRO LEFT OFF.
HOW COME YOU'RE QUITTING POLITICS?

The caption changes to "Glen Murray. Pembina Institute."
Then, it changes again to "Leaving Queen's Park."

Glen says IT'S 23 YEARS
OF PUBLIC LIFE.
THAT'S A LOT ON YOUR FAMILY.
I CAME IN TO DO SOME FAIRLY
SPECIFIC THINGS.
I PRETTY MUCH GOT, VERY
FORTUNATELY, MOSTLY EVERYTHING I
WANTED DONE.
POLITICS IS HARD TO GET INTO,
HARD TO GET OUT OF I WORKED WITH
PEMBINA OVER 25 YEARS, GOING
BACK TO...

Steve says THIS IS YOUR NEW JOB.

Glen says THIS IS THE
NEW JOB, WHICH IS THE EXECUTIVE
DIRECTOR OF A REALLY
EXTRAORDINARY RESEARCH AND
ENVIRONMENTAL ORGANIZATION
CALLED THE PEMBINA INSTITUTE AND
THAT SORT OF JOB ONLY COMES UP
ONCE EVERY TEN YEARS.
WHEN SOME OF MY FRIENDS SAID
IT'S OPEN, YOU SHOULD REALLY DO
IT, IT REALLY WAS A DREAM JOB
FOR ME.
I WANTED TO SPEND THE REST OF MY
LIFE FIGHTING CLIMATE CHANGE AND
I WANTED AN EFFECTIVE PLATFORM.
IT WOULD HAVE BEEN CONVENIENT TO
DO IT IN A YEAR OR TWO OR A
YEAR.

Steve says I AM GOING TO ASK
YOU MORE ABOUT THE NEW JOB.
FIRST I WANT TO LOOK BACK A
LITTLE BIT AND FIND OUT, IN
PARTICULAR, I PRESUME YOU GAVE
THE PREMIER A HEADS UP YOU WERE LEAVING?

The caption changes to "Glen Murray, @Glen4Climate."

Glen says OH, YEAH.
WE CHATTED ABOUT IT FOR MANY
WEEKS BEFORE AND MY DEPARTURE
WAS PLANNED OUT WITH HER.
SHE WAS... I WISH EVERYONE KNEW
HER THE WAY I DO.
SHE IS ONE OF THE MOST
DELIGHTFUL AND GENEROUS AND
INTELLIGENT AND STEADY-HANDED
PEOPLE I KNOW.
IT WAS HARD.
BECAUSE WE HAD BECOME QUITE
CLOSE FRIENDS.
WE ACTUALLY CHAT I THINK AS MUCH
NOW AS WE DID WHEN I WAS THERE.

Steve says WHAT WAS HER
REACTION WHEN YOU ANNOUNCED YOU
WEREN'T GOING TO RUN AGAIN?

The caption changes to "Connect with us: @theagenda, TVO.org, Facebook, YouTube, Periscope, Instagram."

Glen says WE HAD A BIT
OF A TEARFEST, QUITE HONESTLY.
IT WAS QUITE SAD.
I THINK... WE HAD TWO
CONVERSATIONS ABOUT IT: THE
FIRST ONE WAS MORE ABOUT, YOU
KNOW, LEAVING, WHO WOULD REPLACE
ME AND HOW WE WOULD MANAGE
THINGS GOING FORWARD?
HOW COULD I DO THIS IN A WAY
THAT WAS SUPPORTIVE OF ALL MY
COLLEAGUES AND FRIENDS, WHICH IS
IMPORTANT TO ME.
THE SECOND ONE WAS MORE ABOUT,
HOW DO PEOPLE IN LEADERSHIP
ROLES WITH THE KIND OF
EXPERIENCE WE HAVE WORK TOGETHER
MORE CLOSELY, LIKE GOVERNMENT...
I'VE SAID THAT, IN SOME WAYS,
THE CLIMATE FIGHT IS MOVING AWAY
FROM GOVERNMENT, SO HOW DOES THE
PREMIER WORK WITH THE HEAD OF A
LARGE ENVIRONMENTAL ORGANIZATION
AND BUSINESS AND LABOUR TO TRULY
CREATE CHANGE?
IT WAS INTERESTING.
OUR SECOND CONVERSATION WAS MUCH
MORE OF A STRATEGIC ONE BECAUSE
SHE IS A PRETTY QUICK READ AND
SHE IMMEDIATELY SAID, OKAY, SO
THIS IS HAPPENING.
HOW DO I... HOW DO I... HOW DO I
MAKE THINGS BETTER BY WORKING
WITH THIS PERSON IN A NEW WAY?

Steve says NOWHERE IN THAT
ANSWER DID YOU INDICATE THAT SHE
ACTUALLY TRIED TO CHANGE YOUR MIND.

Glen says YOU KNOW, WE
HAD A... IT WAS INTERESTING
BECAUSE ANDREW BEVAN, HER CHIEF
OF STAFF, WE WORKED TOGETHER
WHEN I WAS CHAIR OF THE BIG
CITIES CONGRESS.
HE WORKED WITH PAUL MARTIN NEW
DEAL.
I'VE WORKED WITH HIM THREE
TIMES.
HE WAS THE FIRST PERSON I TOLD.
I WANTED TO TELL HIM, BECAUSE I
KNEW HE DIDN'T WANT TO RUIN THE
PREMIER'S DAY, SO WE HAD A
REALLY GOOD CONVERSATION.
HE SAID TO ME, HE SAID, YOU
KNOW, WITH YOU, YOU'VE GOT TO
COME AND GO AND DO THINGS IN I
DON'T YOU ARE LIFE, AND I AND
THE PREMIER ARE NEVER GOING TO
STAND IN THE WAY OF SOMEONE WHO
WANTS TO DO SOMETHING
FUNDAMENTAL WITH THEIR LIFE.
AND YOU UNDERSTAND, YOU KNOW,
HOW MUCH YOU GIVE UP IN
POLITICS, AND WHEN YOU GET...
ONCE YOU WORK IN CLIMATE CHANGE,
IT'S DIFFERENT THAN ANYTHING
ELSE I'VE WORKED IN SINCE
AIDS, THE ONLY THING I'VE
EVER EXPERIENCED WITH IT.
ONCE YOU UNDERSTAND THE SCIENCE
OF IT AND YOU REALIZE HOW LITTLE
TIME WE HAVE LEFT AND HOW MUCH
IS AT RISK, LIKE WHETHER OR NOT
THIS PLANET IS LIVABLE FOR OUR
CHILDREN, YOU QUICKLY COME TO A
POINT THAT THERE'S NOTHING ELSE
YOU CAN SPEND YOUR LIFE ON
DOING, NOTHING ELSE MATTERS AS
MUCH.
AND I THINK THE PREMIER IS THERE
AS WELL IS THAT SHE HAS REALIZED
THIS ISSUE TRUMPS ALL OTHERS.

Steve says IF THIS IS THE
NUMBER ONE ISSUE OF ALL TIME AND
YOU HAVE THE JOB AS THE MINISTER
OF THE ENVIRONMENT AND CLIMATE
CHANGE, HOW CAN YOU WALK AWAY
FROM THAT JOB?

Glen says BECAUSE I HAD
GIVEN IT MY ALL.
I HAD THREE YEARS.
QUITE FRANKLY, WHEN YOU'RE DOING
A JOB ACROSS GOVERNMENT, DOING
SOME THINGS, FORCING A LOT...
THROUGH A LOT OF DIFFICULT
DECISIONS, YOU SPEND YOUR
POLITICAL CAPITAL AND I LEARNED
THAT WHEN I WAS MAYOR.
THERE'S A POINT YOU GO TO THE
BANK ONE DAY AND THAT'S WHEN
YOUR POLITICAL CAPITAL IS SPENT.

Steve says IS THAT WHERE IT IS
RIGHT NOW?

Glen says I THINK I WAS
GETTING TO THAT POINT AND I ALSO
WAS AWARE THERE WERE NEWER
MEMBERS COMING UP, CHRIS WHO I
REMEMBERED BEING MY REPLACEMENT.

Steve says AND IS.

Glen says YOU'LL SEE ONE
OF THE FINEST POLITICIANS TO
EVER SIT IN THAT HOUSE, AND IT
NEEDED A DIFFERENT FACE AND A
DIFFERENT VOICE TO WIN THAT
FIGHT.
AND THIS FIGHT WAS IMPORTANT
ENOUGH TO ME TO KNOW WHEN TO
STEP OUT.

Steve says BEFORE ASKING YOU A
NASTY QUESTION, I'M GOING TO
GIVE YOU A COMPLIMENT FIRST.

Glen says OH, THANKS.

Steve says THE COMPLIMENT IS,
AND I HAVE NO HESITATION SAYING
IT, YOU WERE WIDELY THOUGHT TO
BE ONE OF THE BETTER KNOWN, MORE
EFFECTIVE MINISTERS IN BOTH
DALTON McGUINTY'S AND KATHLEEN
WYNNE'S GOVERNMENTS, AND THERE
ARE GOING TO BE PEOPLE ASKING
THE QUESTION: HOW CAN YOU
ABANDON HER WHEN SHE NEEDS ALL
HANDS ON DECK TO WIN THE NEXT
ELECTION WHICH HARDLY LOOKS LIKE
A SLAM DUNK RIGHT NOW?
DON'T YOU FEEL A LITTLE BIT
DISLOYAL LEAVING HER AT THIS
POINT?

Glen says NO, I DON'T.

Steve says WHY NOT?

Glen says BECAUSE I
THINK IF YOU ASK HER THE SAME
QUESTION, SHE WOULD PROBABLY
GIVE YOU A SIMILAR ANSWER.
FEW PEOPLE HAVE HAD MY BACK IN
POLITICS THE WAY SHE HAD AND I
THINK SHE WOULD SAY THE SAME AS
ME.
WE'RE ALSO QUITE CLOSE.
SHE KNOW HOW SERIOUSLY I TAKE
EXISTENTIAL CRISES.
I LOST 43 FRIENDS TO AIDS.
I QUICK A SUCCESSFUL CAREER.
I HAD TO GIVE ALL MY LIFE TO IT.
AND SHE SIMPLY UNDERSTANDS THAT.
SHE SIMPLY UNDERSTOOD THAT THERE
ARE RESTRICTIONS ON WHAT YOU CAN
SAY AND DO AS A CABINET MINISTER
AND THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE A
CERTAIN SOCIAL LICENCE FROM THE
PUBLIC THAT I CAN'T SAY CERTAIN
THINGS AS A MINISTER THAT I FELT
NEEDED SAYING.
NOT BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT
WASN'T HONEST AND FORTH RIGHT.
IT WAS.
BUT TO PUSH AN AGENDA THE WAY I
NEEDED TO PUSH AN AGENDA DOESN'T
LEND ITSELF WELL TO THE
CONSENSUS TEAM APPROACH YOU HAVE
TO HAVE AS A MINISTER.
I'M A FAIRLY INDEPENDENT PERSON
IN THAT SENSE.
SO I HAVE TO WORK SORT OF TWICE
AS HARD AS MAYBE AS SOME OTHERS
TO BE A REALLY GOOD TEAM PLAYER.
AND MOST OF MY COLLEAGUES WOULD
TELL YOU I WAS A GOOD TEAM
PLAYER.
BUT IT WAS TIME... IT WAS TIME
FOR A HIGHER LEVEL OF ACTIVISM
THAN ONE COULD EASILY DO AS A
MINISTER OF THE CROWN.

Steve says LET'S GO BACK A BIT.
YOU DO POINT OUT THAT IT WAS THE
AIDS CRISIS THAT BROUGHT YOU
INTO ACTIVISM TO BEGIN WITH...

Glen says AND TO
POLITICS.

Steve says AND TO POLITICS,
YES, INDEED.
IT WAS, WELL, I'M GOING TO ASK
THE QUESTION DIRECTLY: HOW DOES
AN OPENLY GAY MAN BECOME THE
MAYOR OF WINNIPEG, MANITOBA, IN 1998?

Glen says HOW DOES A KID
WHO RAN A NEEDLE EXCHANGE
PROGRAM AND WORKING IN THE BACK
ALLEYS OF WINNIPEG GET ELECTED
TO CITY COUNCIL WHEN...

The caption changes to "A trailblazer."

Steve says EVEN BETTER
QUESTION.
HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN?

Glen says YOU KNOW, I
TALK TOO MUCH SOMETIMES.
I HAVE A FEW FOIBLES.

Steve says YOU DON'T SAY?

Glen says BUT I THINK,
I'VE NEVER HAD A SCANDAL IN MY
ENTIRE.
I'VE ALWAYS BEEN INCREDIBLY
HONEST, MAYBE TOO MUCH SO, AND I
THINK, YOU KNOW, THAT PEOPLE
FOUND ME AS SOMEONE WORKING
REALLY HARD IN THE COMMUNITY AT
THAT TIME AND SORT OF SAID, IF
YOU CAN BE HONEST ABOUT THAT,
YOU CAN BE THAT OPEN ABOUT WHO
YOU ARE, BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE
SOMETHING THAT EVERYONE ELSE HAD
BEEN HIDING, EVEN SVEND ROBINSON
WASN'T OUT, THAT WAS A LEVEL OF
HONESTY THAT PEOPLE WANTED.
I THINK AUTHENTICITY, I THINK
PEOPLE TODAY, SOMEWHAT
TRAGICALLY, I THINK, VOTE FOR
PEOPLE BASED ON WHETHER THEY
BELIEVE WHAT THEY'RE SAYING OR
NOT AND THEY THINK IT COMES FROM
THEIR HEART, NOT WHETHER THEY
AGREE WITH IT.

Steve says THE PRESIDENT IS A
GREAT EXAMPLE OF THAT.

Glen says YEAH.
WE'VE HAD A VERY INTERESTING
HISTORY OF MAYORS IN THIS CITY,
FOR EXAMPLE.
AND I WOULD SAY THAT SOME OF
THEM, EVEN SOME OF THE GREATEST,
BARBARA HALL I THINK IS ONE OF
THE MOST UNDERAPPRECIATED
POLITICIANS WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE
LEGACY OF WHAT SHE ACTUALLY DID,
YOU KNOW, SOME OF THEM WEREN'T
PEOPLE WHO WERE NATURALLY
POLITICIANS, SOME OF THEM WERE
AT THE OTHER EXTREMES, ROB FORD
WOULD HAVE BEEN SOMEONE WITH A
VERY BIG PERSONALITY ON A LOT OF
ISSUES, BUT I THINK PEOPLE VOTE
FOR SINCERITY AND TRUTHFULNESS.

Steve says AGREED.
I AGREE WITH YOU.
IF AUTHENTICITY IS... I WANT TO
ASK YOU ABOUT WHEN YOU RAN FOR
THE LEADERSHIP OF THE ONTARIO
LIBERALS AND THE RACE THAT
KATHLEEN WYNNE EVENTUALLY WON
AND YOU DROPPED OUT TO BACK HER.
YOU DIDN'T ACTUALLY MAKE IT TO
THE FINISH LINE.
YOU DROPPED OUT BEFORE
CONVENTION DAY.
WHY DID THAT CAMPAIGN NOT GO
BETTER FOR YOU?

Glen says WELL, IT WAS INTERESTING.
I TALKED WITH ERIC HOSKINS AND
CHARLES SOUSA AND SOME OF THE
REST OF THE FOLKS, SANDRA.
HAD IT BEEN A YEAR-LONG
CAMPAIGN, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK
MOST OF US EXPECTED, THOSE OF US
WHO WERE NEWER COULD HAVE BUILT
A CONSTITUENCY.
THE LONGER YOU HAD BEEN IN THE
PARTY AND THE LONGER YOU HAD
BEEN IN GOVERNMENT WAS THE
BETTER YOU WERE DOING.
SO IT QUICKLY BECAME A TWO-TIER
RACE.
IT WAS REALLY KENNEDY AND MOSTLY
PUPATELLO AND WYNNE BECAUSE I
THINK THERE WAS AN AGREEMENT IN
THE PARTY A CONSENSUS DEVELOPED
IT HAD TO BE A WOMAN THIS TIME
AND THEY WERE THE MOST
EXPERIENCED AND THEY WERE THE
BEST KNOWN.
SO IN A TWO AND A HALF MONTH
CAMPAIGN, THEY HAVE A HUGE
ADVANTAGE.
YOU NEED DALTON McGUINTY TYPE
LEADERSHIP FOR SOMEONE LIKE AN
ERIC HOSKINS OR MYSELF TO BE
MORE IN THE RACE.
BUT I DROPPED OUT BECAUSE I HAD
ONE OF THE LARGEST BLOCS OF
MEMBERSHIPS, I THINK IT WAS
FOURTH OR FIFTH, I HAD A LOT,
5,000.
AND MY 5,000 MEMBERS, I DIDN'T
HAVE THE MONEY OR ORGANIZATION
AT THAT POINT THAT KATHLEEN AND
SANDRA DID AND TOM, A FRIEND OF
MINE, TALKED TO MY CHIEF OF
STAFF AND THE TWO SAID GLEN HAS
5,000 MEMBERS AND KATHLEEN HAD
12,000 AT THE TIME AND IT WAS
ONE OF THE LARGEST BLOCS.
IT WAS EASIER FOR HER TO
MOBILIZE MY MEMBERS AND GET MORE
DELEGATES OUT OF IT THAN IF I
HAD WAITED UNTIL LATER AND GOT
WHAT WAS A SMALLER NUMBER OF
DELEGATES.
THAT DECISION AT THAT TIME, I
CAN TELL YOU COMPLETELY HONESTLY
NOW, WAS PRETTY MUCH MATH.
MY 5,000 MEMBERSHIPS IN THE
RIGHT PLACES WERE MORE USEFUL
BECAUSE IF WE DOUBLED UP WYNNE
DELEGATES AND POTENTIAL MURRAY
DELEGATES, THE MATH WAS BETTER
IN THE END.

Steve says DO YOU REMEMBER YOUR
VISIT BEFORE THIS PROGRAM JUST
BEFORE YOU DROPPED OUT OF THE
LEADERSHIP RACE, BECAUSE I SURE DO.

Glen says OH, I DO.

Steve says I'M GOING TO SET
THIS UP BECAUSE YOU GAVE THE
SHORTEST ANSWERS TO MY FIRST
THREE OR FOUR QUESTIONS IN THAT
INTERVIEW THAT I'VE EVER HEARD
YOU GIVE BEFORE.
THIS IS ALMOST FIVE YEARS AGO
NOW.
LET'S PLAY A SNIPPET, SHALL WE?
SHELDON, ROLL THE CLIP, IF YOU WOULD?

A clip plays on screen with the caption "Glen Murray. January 10, 2013."
In the clip, which Steve and Glen talk in the studio.

Steve says YOU'RE RIGHT, YOU KNOW?
YOU SAID BEFORE WE STARTED THIS
INTERVIEW YOU'RE GOING TO STUN
ME WITH YOUR BREVITY AND YOU'RE
DOING IT NOW BECAUSE YOU'VE
NEVER BEEN THE BRIEF CANDIDATE.
WHAT'S GOING ON HERE?

Glen says ONE THING I
LEARNED FROM DALTON McGUINTY
AND I THINK MANY HAVE SAID ABOUT
HIM HE'S NOT THE GUY HE WAS 16
YEARS AGO.
SOMEONE ASKED ME WHAT WAS THE
ONE THING I LEARNED FROM HIM?
YOU HAVE TO CHANGE.
YOU HAVE TO GROW.

Steve says AND THAT MEANS IN
YOUR CASE WHAT?

Glen says SAY LESS.

Steve says laughs and says OKAY.

The clip ends.

Steve says TO SAY LESS IS A FUNNY THING.
THE NO BEING ON YOU ALWAYS HAS
BEEN THAT YOU ARE A GUY WHO
TALKS ENDLESSLY BUT DOESN'T
LISTEN ALL THAT MUCH.
HAVE YOU CHANGED AT ALL?

Glen says YOU KNOW, I
THINK I HAVE.
I MEAN, IT WOULD BE INTERESTING
IF YOU PHONE THE PEOPLE AT
PEMBINA, BECAUSE MY FIRST COUPLE
OF WEEKS THERE, AND I'M JUST
FINISHING MY SECOND WEEK THERE,
I'VE INTERVIEWED EVERY SINGLE
MEMBER OF THE STAFF AND I HAVE A
LITTLE NOTE... I GENTLY RIGHT IN
THE CORNER, SHUT UP FOR THE NEXT
15 MINUTES.

Steve says BUT THAT'S
INTERESTING.
YOU HAVE TO WRITE IT DOWN TO
REMIND YOURSELF.
IT'S NOT YOUR NATURAL STATE.

Glen says I LIKE TO TALK.

Steve says NO KIDDING?

Glen says LET'S JUST BE
HONEST.

Steve says YES.

Glen says I JUST GET
PAID... IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR IT
WAS A GREAT ADVANTAGE.
PEOPLE WOULD PAY ME 10,000 dollars,
15,000 dollars TO GIVE A SPEECH.
MY FRIEND USED TO HAVE ME STEP
IN FOR HIM.
TOO BAD HE DIDN'T PAY ME BY THE
WORD.
I WOULD BE A MILLIONAIRE NOW.

Steve says THERE YOU GO.
I DO WANT TO ASK YOU,
PARTICULARLY SINCE LAST WEEK WAS
A PRETTY RED-LETTER DATE IN THE
HISTORY OF THE PROVINCE AND
QUEBEC AND CALIFORNIA, AND YOU
MAY WANT TO RIFF ON THIS A BIT,
I WANT TO KNOW THE THING THAT
YOU ARE MOST PROUD OF HAVING
ACHIEVED WITH YOUR NEARLY
QUARTER CENTURY IN PUBLIC LIFE.

Glen says WOW.
THERE'S A NUMBER OF THINGS.

Steve says I FIGURED YOU'D SAY
CAP AND TRADE BUT I DON'T WANT
TO TAKE YOU THERE IF THAT'S NOT
THE ANSWER.

The caption changes to "The art of the possible."

Glen says THE BIG
SLEEPER ISSUE IF YOU WANT TO
WRITE THE BIG STORY, WAS... I
DON'T THINK EVERY ONTARIAN KNOWS
THAT EVERY PRODUCT SOLD INTO THE
ONTARIO MARKET, THE RETAILER AND
THE PERSON WHO MAKES THAT
PLASTIC BOTTLE OR THOSE PAIR OF
SHOES, THEY'RE THE END LIFE AND
THAT IS REVOLUTIONARY.
THAT WILL HAVE MORE IMPACT...
WE'RE TRACKING TO BE A ZERO
WASTE AND ZERO CARBON SOCIETY
WITHIN 30 YEARS WHICH IS THE
TIME FRAME WE HAVE TO DO IT IN.
LAST FRIDAY, WHEN GOVERNOR
BROWN, PREMIER WYNNE AND PREMIER
COUILLARD ANNOUNCED THE
FORMALIZATION OF THIS HUGE
CARBON MARKET ECONOMY IN
GERMANY... WITH CALIFORNIA'S
GOVERNOR BROWN, THAT'S HISTORIC.
THAT'S GOING TO CREATE A
FOUNDATION.
IT'S VERY HARD TO UNDO CAP AND
TRAIN.
WHEN YOU HAVE IT LINKED TO
ACROSS NORTH AMERICA, THAT MAY
BE THE BIGGEST THING THAT'S
WORKING TO SAVE THIS PLANET...

Steve says DO YOU THINK THAT
WILL SURVIVE EVEN IF THE WYNNE
GOVERNMENT IS DEFEATED NEXT JUNE?

Glen says YEAH.
AND I DON'T THINK THAT'S GOING
TO HAPPEN BUT, YEAH.
I THINK THAT'S GOING TO SURVIVE
AND BE BUILT ON, AND I THINK AS
PEOPLE START TO UNDERSTAND,
BECAUSE BUSINESS LIKES IT...
YOU'VE GOT TO REMEMBER, THE NINE
LARGEST EMITTING INDUSTRY
ASSOCIATIONS FROM STEEL TO
CEMENT TO AUTO ARE ALL HUGELY
SUPPORTIVE OF THIS AND THEY'VE
BEEN DRIVING IT.
YOU'VE GOT PEOPLE MAKING, YOU
KNOW, NOVA CORPORATION HAS PUT
HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS
INTO THEIR CORONA PLANT,
BUSINESSES ARE INVESTING,
MODERNIZING FACILITIES.
YOU CAN'T IMPROVE THE EFFICIENCY
OF A MAJOR AUTOMOBILE PLANT OR
MAJOR REFINERY WITHOUT
MODERNIZING THE WHOLE THING.

Steve says SO WHEN PATRICK
BROWN SAYS I'M GOING TO GET RID
OF CAP AND TRADE IF I BECOME
PREMIER NEXT JUNE AND I'M GOING
TO BRING IN A CARBON TAX WHICH
WILL SATISFY THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT'S REQUIREMENTS AND
NOT BE AS CUMBERSOME AS HE
THINKS IT IS, YOU'D SAY WHAT?

Glen says I WOULD SAY
YOUR CARBON TAX WOULD HAVE TO
START AT 80 dollars A TONNE TO HAVE THE
SAME EFFECT AS A CAP AND TRADE
SYSTEM WITH A 3 OR 4 percent DECLINE
RATE, WHICH WOULD BE THE RATE AT
WHICH YOU FORCE THE REDUCTIONS
IN EMISSIONS.
TO GET ANYWHERE NEAR TARGETS,
YOU'D BE STARTING AT THE 80.
THAT'S 16 CENTS AT THE PIPE.
GOOD LUCK GETTING ELECTED ON
THAT.
HE HAS A HUGE PROBLEM THERE
BECAUSE HE HAS TAKEN POSITIONS
BASED ON WHAT HE HAD TO GET
ELECTED LEADER OF HIS PARTY, AND
THEN REVERSED HIMSELF AND NOW
CAN'T...

Steve says WELL, NOT THAT ONE.
HE'S ACTUALLY STARED DOWN QUITE
A LOT OF PEOPLE IN HIS PARTY WHO
DON'T WANT A CARBON TAX AND HE
SAID, CLIMATE CHANGE IS REAL AND
WE'RE GOING TO DO IT.
DOES HE GET POLITICAL COURAGE
MARKS FROM YOU FOR THAT?

Glen says HE SAID A LOT
OF THINGS TO THE BASE OF THAT
PARTY IN HIS LEADERSHIP RACE,
POSITIONS WHICH HE REVERSED
HIMSELF ON SUBSTANTIALLY,
INCLUDING THAT ONE, AFTER HE
BECAME LEADER OF THE PARTY.
I THINK WHAT ANY LEADER DOES,
AND I'LL BE VERY NON-PARTISAN,
IS THE WHOLE THING IS ABOUT
REDUCING GREENHOUSE GAS
EMISSIONS AND HOPEFULLY DOING IT
AT THE MOST EFFECTIVE COST.
BUT IF YOU'RE NOT TRACKING TO
80 percent OR BETTER BY 2050 AND MAKING
REAL PROGRESS SOONER, IT SIMPLY
DOESN'T WORK.
AND MANY POLITICIANS OF ALL
STRIPES, INCLUDING THE PARTY I'M
IN, AND I MEAN LIBERALS ACROSS
CANADA, HAVE HAD SOME TROUBLE
RECONCILING HOW THEY'RE ACTUALLY
GOING TO GET TO THOSE TARGETS.
BECAUSE EVERYBODY... THE HARD
TRUTH ABOUT HOW MUCH WORK HAS TO
GO IN TO REDUCING GHG EMISSIONS
IS JUST NOT... WE'RE NOT YET AT
THAT SERIOUS CONVERSATION.
THE THING THAT I THINK WILL
SURPRISE MOST PEOPLE THAT'S
HOPEFUL ABOUT THIS IS THAT
EVERY... ALL OF THE
JURISDICTIONS THAT ARE DRIVING
GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS DOWN
ARE IMPROVING THE PRODUCTIVITY
OF THEIR ECONOMY, THEY'RE SEEING
A RISE IN PERSONAL WEALTH, IN
INCOME, AND THEY'RE SEEING A
SIGNIFICANT RISE IN NEW JOBS AND
BETTER-PAYING JOBS.
SO I THINK THE DEPARTURE POINT,
AND THIS IS WHERE THE IRONY THAT
DONALD TRUMP MAY HELP US, IS
THAT THE CANADIAN ECONOMY IS NOW
MAKING DECISIONS BECAUSE OF
CLIMATE CHANGE THAT IS GIVING IT
STRATEGIC ADVANTAGES OVER THE
U.S. ECONOMY, AND I THINK AS
MORE INDEPENDENT ECONOMISTS
WEIGH IN WITH THAT ANALYSIS, I
THINK IT'S GOING TO STRENGTHEN
THAT AND I THINK THIS
ANNOUNCEMENT BETWEEN BROWN,
COUILLARD, AND WYNNE, IF YOU
LOOK AT THE NUMBERS FOR JOB
GROWTH AND THEY'RE JURISDICTIONS
LEADING THE G-7.

Steve says QUEBEC IS DOING
BETTER THAN US.

Glen says AND WE'RE
DOING BETTER THAN ALMOST
EVERYONE ELSE IN THE G-7.
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT VERY SMALL
DEGREES OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
THE THREE JURISDICTIONS.
I'D RATHER BE IN CALIFORNIA,
ONTARIO, OR QUEBEC RIGHT NOW
COMPARED TO MOST U.S. STATES IF
I'D BE LOOKING FOR A JOB OR
WANTED TO SECURE AN ECONOMIC
FUTURE.

Steve says IN OUR LAST COUPLE
OF MINUTES, TELL US ABOUT YOUR
NEW MISSION AT PEMBINA?
HOW DO YOU SEE IT?

The caption changes to "Saving the environment."

Glen says I ALWAYS HAD A
BIT OF A LIFE PLAN, ESPECIALLY
WHEN I REALIZED I WASN'T GOING
TO DIE AT THE AGE OF 35 LIKE
MOST OF MY CLOSE FRIENDS.
THAT WAS AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS.
I THINK MOST PEOPLE DON'T GET TO
CONFRONT THEIR MORTALITY IN THAT
WAY.
WHEN I TURN 60, WHICH WILL BE IN
A COUPLE OF WEEKS, THAT WAS THE
THIRD PHASE OF MY LIFE, SORT OF
THE ELDER PHASE.
BY THAT POINT I WOULD KNOW
MYSELF BETTER, I DON'T HAVE TO
PROVE MYSELF ANYMORE, AND I WAS
GOING TO DEDICATE ALL OF MY
ENERGY TO THE MOST IMPORTANT
ISSUE IN THE WORLD, AND FOR ME,
IT'S CLIMATE CHANGE.
IF WE DON'T TURN THIS AROUND IN
THE NEXT 10, 15 YEARS, WE'RE
DONE.
AS STEPHEN HAWKING SAID, THE
TRACK WE'RE ON RIGHT NOW IS NOT
GOOD.
I THINK HE ALSO SAID GIVEN THE
CHOICE BETWEEN THE IMPOSSIBLE
AND THE UNTHINKABLE, I'LL TAKE
THE IMPOSSIBLE EVERY TIME.
I THINK THE CHALLENGE IS NOT
IMPOSSIBLE.
I'M NOT A DENIER AND I'M NOT A
DEFEATIST.
BUT I THINK IT TAKES AN ENORMOUS
AMOUNT OF TRANSFORMATIONAL
LEADERSHIP AND I THINK IT'S TIME
TO LEAVE POLITICS TO BRIGHT NEW
FACES AND VOICES AND TO LEND
MYSELF TO A WHOLE BUNCH OF VERY
BRIGHTENING NEARS AND ECONOMISTS
WHO WORK AT PEMBINA AND HELP ME
BRING A LITTLE BIT OF POLITICAL
EXPERIENCE AND GRAVITAS TO THEIR
ENERGIES SO THAT THEY... SO THAT
THEY CAN GET TO MY AGE, SO THEY
CAN BE 60 ONE DAY AND HAVE THE
SAME PRIVILEGE I HAVE TO TAKE A
LIFE THAT I THINK HAS BEEN
WELL-LIVED AND MAKE A REAL
DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD.
SO FROM NOW UNTIL DEATH OR 90 OR
WHATEVER I GET, THIS IS PRETTY
MUCH THE REST OF MY LIFE, AND
THE PREMIER UNDERSTOOD THAT.
SHE SAID TO ME I GET THAT.
I GET THIS, THAT THIS IS SIMPLY
A SINGLE MISSION FOR YOU FOR THE
REST OF YOUR LIFE.

Steve says YOU KNOW, A SMART
ALEC WOULD SAY IF YOU WANT TO
LEAVE POLITICS TO THE BRIGHT
YOUNGER NEW FACES, THAT'S THE
LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION, NOT
THE CURRENT PREMIER.

Glen says I ACTUALLY
THINK KATHLEEN WYNNE'S LEGACY ON
POVERTY, ON THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE
THAT ARE GETTING A UNIVERSITY
AND COLLEGE EDUCATION BECAUSE
IT'S FREE, CLIMATE CHANGE, NO
ONE COMES CLOSE TO HER.
INFRASTRUCTURE INVESTMENTS WE
HAVEN'T SEEN SINCE JOHN ROBARTS.
WE ARE BUILDING IT.
WE HAD 40 YEARS IN THIS PROVINCE
FROM THE 1970, WHEN OUR FRIEND
BILL DAVIS, WHO YOU ARE FAMILIAR
WITH, WHEN WE WERE SPENDING A
FRACTION OF WHAT OTHER PROVINCES
WERE ON THEIR ENERGY, PUBLIC
INFRASTRUCTURE, THEIR BUILDINGS,
HOSPITALS, AND WE UNDERBUILT FOR
OUR POPULATION.
AND THAT IS THE TRAGIC LEGACY OF
ONTARIO, THE BIG POLITICAL
STORIES THAT DALTON McGUINTY
AND KATHLEEN WYNNE REVERSED
THAT.
WE'RE ABOUT UP TO 5 percent OF GDP ON
INFRASTRUCTURE.
WE HAVE SEEN SINCE BILL DAVIS
THE LARGEST INVESTMENTS IN OUR
EDUCATION SYSTEM.
WE'VE GONE FROM 60-ODD TO OVER
80 PERCENT OF KIDS GRADUATING
FROM HIGH SCHOOL.
WE'RE GETTING MORE FOREIGN
CAPITAL.
JERRY BROWN WAS ON THE FRONT
PAGE OF NEWSWEEK ON THE
CALIFORNIA MIRACLE.
I LOOKED AT KATHLEEN WYNNE'S AND
DALTON McGUINTY'S NUMBERS
COMING THROUGH A RECESSION THAT
HAD BANKING AND AUTO, THE TWO
FOUNDATIONS OF OUR ECONOMY, MUCH
TOUGHER.
SHE SMOKES THEM.

Steve says I THINK IT'S GOING
TO BE HARD TO GET YOU OUT OF
PARTISAN POLITICS.

Glen says I THINK IT
WOULD BE NICE MAYBE IF KATHLEEN
WYNNE WAS ON THE FRONT PAGE OF
MACLEANS BECAUSE I THINK MEN GET
TREATED MUCH MORE EASILY IN
POLITICS THAN WOMEN DO.
IF YOU WANT A COMPARATOR, LOOK
AT THE FRONT PAGE OF NEWS WEEK
AND ASK YOURSELF WHY KATHLEEN
WYNNE WHO HAS AS GOOD OR BETTER
RECORD THAN JERRY BROWN ISN'T ON
THE COVER OF MACLEANS WITH THE
ONTARIO MIRACLE BECAUSE THE
NUMBERS ARE ON HER SIDE.

Watch: Turning Over a New Leaf