Transcript: The Appeal of Hate | Sep 11, 2017

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, blue shirt, and striped purple tie.

A caption on screen reads "The appeal of hate. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says NEO-NAZIS MARCHING IN
CHARLOTTESVILLE, VIRGINIA.
FAR RIGHT GROUPS SUCH AS THE
SOLDIERS OF ODIN PATROLLING
STREETS IN CANADIAN CITIES.
ONCE YOU GET OVER THE SHOCK OF
IT, THE FIRST OBVIOUS QUESTION
IS: WHY?
WHAT'S THE APPEAL?
AND WHAT CAN BE DONE TO COUNTER
IT?
JOINING US NOW TO EXPLORE THESE
QUESTIONS:
IN ATLANTA, GEORGIA:
MIA BLOOM, PROFESSOR OF
COMMUNICATION, GEORGIA STATE
UNIVERSITY AND AUTHOR OF
"BOMBSHELL: WOMEN AND TERROR."

Mia is in her late forties, with long curly brown hair. She's wearing a spotted black cardigan over a matching shirt, a pendant necklace, and silver earrings.

Steve continues IN CHICAGO, ILLINOIS:
CHRISTIAN PICCIOLINI,
CO-FOUNDER, LIFE AFTER HATE; AND
AUTHOR OF "ROMANTIC VIOLENCE:
MEMOIRS OF AN AMERICAN SKINHEAD."

Christian is in his late thirties, balding, with a full dark beard. He's wearing a black t-shirt.

Steve continues AND HERE IN OUR STUDIO:
MUBIN SHAIKH, FORMER CSIS AND
RCMP OPERATIVE AND AUTHOR OF
"UNDERCOVER JIHADI."

Mubin is in his late thirties, shaven-headed, with a chinstrap beard. He's wearing a blue shirt and a striped gray tie.

Steve continues AND AMARNATH AMARASINGAM, SENIOR
RESEARCH FELLOW, INSTITUTE FOR
STRATEGIC DIALOGUE AND SENIOR
FELLOW, CANADIAN INTERNATIONAL
COUNCIL.

Amarnath is in his forties, clean-shaven and bald. He's wearing glasses, a gray suit and a white shirt.

Steve continues IT'S GOOD TO HAVE YOU TWO GUYS
BACK IN OUR STUDIO HERE, AND TO
OUR FRIENDS IN POINTS BEYOND,
THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TONIGHT
ON TVO AS WELL.
I WANT TO SET UP OUR DISCUSSION
HERE THIS EVENING WITH A COUPLE
OF THINGS OFF THE TOP.
THIS VICE NEWS PIECE WENT VIRAL.
THERE ARE FEW PEOPLE WHO HAVE
NOT SEEN AT LEAST SOME OF THIS.
WE'RE GOING TO SHOW A LITTLE
SNIPPET OF VICE NEWS' REPORT ON
THE GROUND AT THE SO-CALLED
UNITE THE RIGHT MARCH IN
CHARLOTTESVILLE, VIRGINIA.
SHELDON, IF YOU WOULD, THE CLIP,
PLEASE.

A clip plays on screen with the caption "August 11, 2017."
In the clip, angry white men in their thirties and forties march on the streets at night holding up torches. They repeatedly chant "You will not replace us!"
They hold up Nazi flags.
They chant "Jews will not replace us!"
They chant "Blood and soil!"

In daytime, a shaven-headed man in his thirties addresses a group outdoors.
A caption reads "Christopher Cantwell. White nationalist speaker, 'Unite the right.'"

He says WHO DROVE HOW LONG TO GET HERE?

A male voice says 12 HOURS IN OUR CAR.
I'VE BEEN DRIVING FROM NORTH OF THE BORDER.

Christopher says OH, YOU CAME DOWN FROM
CANADA-STAN.
IF I WAS DOING THE RADICAL
AGENDA IN CANADA, I WOULD
PROBABLY BE ARRESTED FOR IT.

The Canadian man, auburn-haired, in his thirties, says IN CANADA HURTING PEOPLE'S
FEELINGS IS BASICALLY ILLEGAL.
IT'S NOT REALLY CRIMINAL BUT...

Christopher says UNLESS THEY'RE WHITE MALES.

The clip ends.

Steve says AND LET US GO BACK IN
TIME TO A 1940 BOOK REVIEW BY
GEORGE ORWELL OF HITLER'S, "MEIN KAMPF"...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Orwell reviews 'Mein kampf.'" The quote reads "The fact is that there is something deeply appealing about him.
Hitler knows that human beings don't only want comfort, safety, short working-hours, hygiene, birth-control and, in general, common sense; they also, at least intermittently, want struggle and self-sacrifice, not to mention drums, flags and loyalty-parades. However they may be as economic theories, Fascism and Nazism are psychologically far sounder than any hedonistic conception of life."
Quoted from George Orwell, "The Collected Essays, Journalism and Letters of George Orwell." 1968.

Steve says ALL RIGHT. WITH ALL OF
THAT IN PLACE, CHRISTIAN, GET US
STARTED NOW, PLEASE.
LET US TRY TO UNDERSTAND THE
PSYCHOLOGICAL APPEAL OF JOINING
A HATE GROUP.
I GUESS TO DO THIS WE'LL TAP
INTO A BIT OF YOUR OWN
EXPERIENCE.
WHY DID YOU JOIN MANY YEARS AGO
A NAZI SKINHEAD GROUP.
WHAT DID IT OFFER YOU
PERSONALLY?

The caption changes to "Christian Picciolini. Life After Hate."
Then, it changes again to "Anxious, alone and alienated."

Christian says STEVE,
LET ME DISPEL THE MYTH OFF THE
BAT.
I DON'T BELIEVE IDEOLOGY
RADICALIZES PEOPLE INITIALLY.
IT'S FOR HUMAN NEEDS: IDENTITY,
COMMUNITY, AND PURPOSE.
FRANKLY WE'RE LIVING IN A TIME
RIGHT NOW WHERE YOUNG PEOPLE
DON'T HAVE A LOT TO HOPE FOR.
IF THEY CAN AFFORD SCHOOL, THEY
GET SADDLED WITH DEBT, THERE
AREN'T JOBS ONCE THEY GET OUT.
YOU KNOW, IT'S KIND OF A
HOPELESS TIME WITHOUT
LEADERSHIP, WITHOUT CLEAR
DIRECTION, AT LEAST IN MY
COUNTRY, IN THE UNITED STATES.
AND YOUNG PEOPLE ARE AMBITIOUS.
THEY'RE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING TO
CHANGE THE WORLD WITH, AND, YOU
KNOW, THESE RECRUITERS FROM
THESE ORGANIZATIONS WHO
RECOGNIZE THE DISTRESS AND
UPHEAVAL THAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT
NOW IN OUR SOCIETY ARE ACTIVELY
LOOKING FOR THESE YOUNG, BROKEN,
MARGINALIZED DISENFRANCHISED
YOUNG PEOPLE AND PROMISING THEM
A BLACK AND WHITE SOLUTION TO A
VERY COMPLEX PROBLEM.
AND IT'S APPEALING TO YOUNG
PEOPLE BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO GIVE
THEM THE ANSWERS, AT LEAST THE
PERCEIVED ANSWERS, TO THE
PROBLEMS THAT THEY'RE FACING.

Steve says MIA, BUILD ON THAT
ANSWER, IF YOU WOULD, BY HELPING
US UNDERSTAND WHY A PARTICULARLY
HATEFUL IDEOLOGY HELPS
APPARENTLY YOUNG MEN FIND THAT
IDENTITY, THAT COMMUNITY, AND
THAT SENSE OF PURPOSE?

The caption changes to "Mia Bloom. Georgia State University."

Mia says A LOT OF WHAT
CHRISTIAN IS SAYING IS SPOT-ON
IN THE SENSE THAT YOU HAVE
PEOPLE WHO ARE SEEKING TO BELONG
TO SOMETHING GREATER THAN JUST
THEMSELVES, AND SO THE IDEOLOGY
VERY OFTEN WILL COME AFTERWARDS.
IN OTHER WORDS, MOST PEOPLE
ASSUME YOU BECOME IDEOLOGICALLY
MOTIVATED AND BECOME MORE AND
MORE INVOLVED IN A GROUP,
WHETHER IT'S A HATE GROUP OR A
TERRORIST GROUP, AND IN FACT
FROM HUNDREDS OF INTERVIEWS THAT
WE'VE DONE OVER THE LAST 15, 20
YEARS, THE REALITY IS VERY
DIFFERENT.
SOMETIMES THE IDEOLOGY IS
LEARNED AFTERWARDS, AND SO THE
HATEFULNESS IS ALMOST IRRELEVANT
COMPARED TO THE OTHER ELEMENTS,
THE POSITIVE ELEMENTS, THAT THEY
THINK THEY'RE GETTING FROM
BELONGING TO SOMETHING GREATER.
SO SOME OF THE SAME INCENTIVES
THAT AN INDIVIDUAL WILL HAVE TO
JOIN A HATE GROUP WOULD REALLY
SPEAK TO THESE JIHADIS WHO ARE
EITHER JOINING ISIS OR
al-QAEDA OR WE HAVE PEOPLE IN
THE UNITED STATES AND CANADA WHO
HARKEN BACK AND JOIN AL-SHABAAB.
IT'S THE SAME KIND OF DYNAMICS,
BOTH PUSH FACTORS AND PULL
FACTORS.
THE PUSH FACTORS CAN BE SOME OF
THE THINGS CHRISTIAN MENTIONED
THAT THEY'RE FEELING
ECONOMICALLY INSECURE OR THEY'RE
FEELING LIKE THEY DON'T HAVE
MUCH HOPE FOR THE FUTURE.
BUT THEN A LOT OF THE PULL
FACTORS ARE THE POSITIVE
ELEMENTS THEY THINK THEY'LL
GETTING FROM BEING MEMBERS OF
THESE GROUPS.

Steve says MUBIN, WHAT WOULD
YOU ADD BASED ON YOUR OWN
EXPERIENCE OF THIS?

The caption changes to "Mubin Shaikh. Former RCMP and C-SIS operative."

Mubin says A QUICK QUOTE
BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
IDEOLOGY AND WHAT CAME FIRST,
THE CHICKEN OR THE EGG, THE
IDEOLOGY OR THE HATE?
SOMETIMES IDEOLOGY IS A DRIVER.
AND OTHER TIMES IT'S A PASSENGER
WITH OTHER PSYCHOSOCIAL FACTORS
AS THE DRIVER.
I THINK WHAT ALL OF US ARE GOING
TO TRY TO SAY YOU CAN'T JUST
LOOK AT IT AS A ONE SIZE FITS
ALL SOLUTION.
YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT IT ON A
SPECTRUM OF DIVERSITY, AS WE ARE
HUMAN BEINGS.

The caption changes to "Amarnath Amarasingam. Institute for Strategic Dialogue."

Amarnath says A LOT
OF PEOPLE JOIN FOR NON-MOVEMENT
RELATED REASONS BECAUSE MY
FRIENDS WENT OR MY FAMILY WAS
INVOLVED OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
THEY ONLY WENT HOME AFTER AND
GOOGLED WHAT IS ISIS OR HOW TO
JOIN ISIS IN SYRIA AND SO ON.
PEOPLE ARE GETTING EMOTIONAL
SUPPORT FROM THAT IDEOLOGY BUT
ALSO THAT BROADER COMMUNITY OF
GROUP, WHETHER IT'S THE NEO-NAZI
MOVEMENT OR TERRORIST MOVEMENT.

Steve says CHRISTIAN, LET ME DO
A SORT OF PSYCHOLOGICAL TALK
WITH YOU FOR A SECOND, ONLY IN
AS FAR AS EXTREMISTS I GATHER
TEND TO SCORE LOWER ON THE
INTEGRATED COMPLEXITY SCALE,
THAT IS THE ABILITY TO THINK
ABOUT THINGS IN COMPLEX WAYS OR
NUANCED WAYS.
SO I ASK THE FLIPSIDE OF THAT,
WHICH IS HOW CRUCIAL IS THE SORT
OF BLACK-AND-WHITE THINKING THAT
IS INVOLVED IN EXTREMISM FOR
UNDERSTANDING ITS APPEAL?

Christian says OH,
IT'S VERY IMPORTANT BECAUSE THE
M.O. OF ANY EXTREMIST GROUP OR
TERRORIST GROUP IS TO BLAME THE
OTHER FOR THE PROBLEMS THAT
EXIST IN YOUR LIFE.
AND WHAT I THINK LEADS PEOPLE TO
EXTREMISM ARE WHAT I CALL
POTHOLES, AND THEY COULD BE
THINGS LIKE TRAUMA OR ABUSE,
ADDICTION, ABANDONMENT, A
PERCEIVED GRIEVANCE, MENTAL
ILLNESS, CHRONIC UNEMPLOYMENT,
POVERTY, WHATEVER THE CASE MAY
BE.
AND THOSE THINGS TEND TO
MARGINALIZE PEOPLE AND PUSH THEM
TO THE FRINGES TO LOOK FOR
ACCEPTANCE AND NEGATIVE
PATHWAYS.
AND THE RECRUITERS ARE VERY
SAVVY AT IDENTIFYING THESE
VULNERABLE PEOPLE WHO ARE
LOOKING FOR ANSWERS.
THERE HAVE EVEN BEEN REPORTS
THAT SOME OF THESE EXTREMIST
GROUPS ARE TARGETING THE MOST
VULNERABLE PEOPLE BY GOING TO
WEB FORUMS THAT ARE FOCUSED ON
MENTAL ILLNESS OR AUTISM OR EVEN
ADHD.
THEY KNOW BECAUSE OF THE
CONDITION THAT THEY HAVE, WHERE
IT'S A HYPERFOCUS, IT'S A VERY
BLACK-AND-WHITE THINKING, THAT
THEY MAY APPEAL TO THESE PEOPLE
WHO DON'T FIT IN IN REAL LIFE.

Steve says IF YOU LOOK AT THAT
VICE DOCUMENTARY, AND OF COURSE
MOST OF THE EVIDENCE WE HAVE IN
OTHER THINGS AS WELL, IT'S NOT
EXCLUSIVELY A MALE THING BUT IT
IS CERTAINLY OVERWHELMINGLY A
MALE THING.
I WONDER IF THERE'S ANY RESEARCH
ON THIS, MIA, THAT CAN POINT TO
WHY THAT IS?

The caption changes to "Mia Bloom. Author, 'Bombshell.'"

Mia says ONE OF THE
THINGS THAT MAKES THESE GROUPS
APPEALING TO YOUNG SINGLE MEN
HAS BEEN WHAT A FRIEND OF MINE,
ELI BERMAN, WHO IS ALSO CANADIAN
BUT TEACHES AT UNIVERSITY OF
CALIFORNIA, SAN DIEGO, HE WRITES
THAT MANY OF THESE GROUPS
PROVIDE SOCIAL SERVICES BUT THEY
ALSO PROVIDE BELONGING, THEY'LL
ALMOST BE A MATCH-MAKING
ORGANIZATION, THEY'LL PROVIDE
YOU A WIFE.
SO I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT WHEN
WE LOOK AT THE CHARLOTTESVILLE
VIDEOS, WE CAN ALSO TAKE INTO
ACCOUNT THAT THESE MOVEMENTS ARE
NOT JUST APPEALING TO MEN OF A
CERTAIN AGE BUT THEY'RE BRINGING
IN WOMEN AND IN FACT BRINGING IN
WOMEN IN A VERY TRADITIONAL
ROLE.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT ISIS, YOU SEE
THE EXACT SAME THING.
WOMEN ARE NOT THERE TO BE
LEADERS, THEY'RE THERE TO BE
WIVES OR MOTHERS, TO GENERATE OR
CREATE THE NEXT GENERATION OF
FIGHTERS IN ISIS OR, YOU KNOW,
THE SUPERIOR RACE FOR THE
CHARLOTTESVILLE MARCHERS, SO THE
FACTORS THAT THE GROUPS ARE ABLE
TO CAPITALIZE NOT JUST ON
FEELING OF BELONGING BUT OF
COURSE CHRISTIAN IS 100 PERCENT
RIGHT, THIS IDEA OF BLACK AND
WHITE IS SO APPEALING, IT'S ONE
OF THE REASONS WHY WE SEE AMONG
THE JIHADIS NOT JUST EDUCATED
PEOPLE BUT EDUCATED IN THE
SCIENCES AND A HUGE NUMBER OF
THESE INDIVIDUALS ARE ENGINEERS
BECAUSE THERE'S A RIGHT ANSWER
AND A WRONG ANSWER.
YOU DON'T WANT SHADES OF GRAY
THAT MIGHT CONFUSE THE RECRUIT.
YOU WANT THERE TO BE BLACK AND
WHITE.

Steve says MUBIN, WHY SO MANY
MORE MEN THAN WOMEN?

The caption changes to "Mubin Shaikh. Author, 'Undercover Jihadi.'"

Mubin says THERE ARE
VERY GOOD POINTS BEING MADE
ABOUT THE BLACK-AND-WHITE
THINKING AND THE ENGINEERS
WANTING A VERY DEFINITIVE
ANSWER, SWITCH ON, SWITCH OFF.
THERE'S BEEN DISCUSSION ON, YOU
KNOW, THE SIMPLE FACT OF
TESTOSTERONE, RIGHT?
THAT MALES HAVE AND WE'RE
GENERALLY MORE AGGRESSIVE, JUST
BIOLOGICALLY.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT MOST OF THE
CRIMINAL OFFENCES THAT ARE
COMMITTED, IT'S MALES BETWEEN 19
AND THIRTY-SOMETHING.
I THINK WHAT IT IS, IT'S TRYING
TO REIMAGINE THIS UTOPIAN LIFE,
THIS UTOPIAN REALITY, WHETHER
IT'S RE-ESTABLISHING THE
HOMELAND FOR WHITES... WHETHER
IT'S THE ETHNO STATE OR THE
CALIPHATE, IT'S THE EXACT SAME
THING.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: @theagenda, TVO.org, Facebook, YouTube, Periscope, Instagram."

Steve says HOW ABOUT THIS
WARRIOR MYTH?

The caption changes to "Mubin Shaikh, @MrMubinShaikh."

Mubin says I WAS GOING
TO MENTION THAT.
WE ALL HAVE THIS WARRIOR MYTH IN
ALL OUR CULTURES, IN OUR OWN
CULTURE, YOU CAN'T SPEAK OUT
AGAINST THE FORCES.
YOU CAN'T BE AGAINST SOLDIERS.
THERE IS ALMOST LIKE A WORSHIP
OF SOLDIERY AND WARRIORS AND
THAT WARRIOR MYTH.
IT'S THE SAME WITH JIHADISTS,
WHITE SUPREMACISTS, AND IN
NORMAL SOCIETY.
WE LOOK AT WARRIORS AND FIGHTERS
AND SOLDIERS ARE THE ONES THAT
ARE MOST PHYSICALLY
REPRESENTATIVE OF US.
IF WE'RE GOING TO BE ATTACKED,
THESE ARE THE ONES THAT ARE
GOING TO STAND UP AND DEFEND
THEM.
THAT IS ONE OF THE MOST
ATTRACTIVE RECRUITING POINTS.
I KNOW THIS WAS SOMETHING I DID
WHEN I WAS RECRUITING PEOPLE, IS
TO PUSH THAT IDEA THAT, LISTEN,
YOU ARE THE CHOSEN VANGUARD.
YOU ARE THE ONE THAT'S GOING TO
ACT WHEN EVERYONE ELSE IS JUST
TALKING.

Steve says WHAT EXACTLY IS THE
APPEAL FOR WOMEN TO BE IN THE
VAST MINORITY IN THIS
ENVIRONMENT TO ESSENTIALLY BE A
BROOD MARE, IF YOU LIKE, FOR THE
MEN WHO WILL GO IN THE
BATTLEFIELD AND PERFORM THESE
HEROIC DEEDS?

The caption changes to "Amarnath Amarasingam. Canadian International Council."

Amarnath says THIS
IS WHERE IDEOLOGY IS IMPORTANT
BECAUSE A LOT OF THESE EARLY
CONVERSATIONS THAT WERE
HAPPENING ON 4CHAN, THE ENGINE
FOR THE ALT-RIGHT BEGAN, THIS IS
A HUGE ISSUE.
THIS IS WHY THE NEO-NAZI
MOVEMENT CURRENTLY IS ANTIGAY,
WHY THERE'S SUCH AN EMPHASIS ON
MALE KIND OF FERTILITY AND
PRODUCING THE NEXT GENERATION OF
WHITE PEOPLE BECAUSE YOU'RE
UNDER ATTACK, BECAUSE MUSLIM
IMMIGRANTS AND IMMIGRANTS IN
GENERAL ARE REPLACING YOU.
YOU WILL NOT REPLACE US ANTHEM.
AND SO THIS IDEA OF THE MALE AS
BEING ATTACKED, THE WHITE MALE
AS BEING ATTACKED, THE ONE THAT
GAVE RISE TO CIVILIZATION AND
ALL THESE KINDS OF THINGS, SO I
THINK PART OF IT IS, IT'S A MALE
MOVEMENT, RIGHT?
SO THE APPEAL FOR WOMEN IS TO
SAY, MUCH LIKE WITH ISIS FEMALE
RECRUITS WE'VE INTERVIEWED,
THEY'RE PART OF THIS FRAMEWORK,
THAT THE ORIGINAL ROLE THAT WAS
MEANT FOR YOU AS A MALE AND
FEMALE HAS BEEN TAKEN AWAY, HAS
BEEN UNDEREMPHASIZED BY WESTERN
SOCIETY AND YOU'RE RECLAIMING
THOSE ROLES.
PART OF IT IS TO SAY WHO WE'RE
MEANT TO BE.
IT CAN BE QUITE A POWERFUL
GALVANIZER.

Steve says BIOLOGICALLY AS
OPPOSED TO SOCIALLY.
LET'S PUT THIS ON THE BOARD
RIGHT NOW. THIS IS FROM
TERRORISM RESEARCHER SCOTT ATRAN
AND HE SAID THIS LAST WEEK...

Another quote appears on screen, under the title "The greatest danger we face." The quote reads "In our material world, we have underestimated or underplayed the spiritual dimension of human action. Doing so runs the risk of leaving ourselves open to people who are motivated by deeper spiritual and sacred values and virtues, and I think that's the greatest danger we face."
Scott Atran, as quoted on CNN.com. September 4, 2017.

Steve says CHRISTIAN, CAN YOU
PICK UP ON THAT?
THE NEED FOR SACRED VALUES FOR
ISIS SUPPORTERS IS PRETTY EASY
TO UNDERSTAND.
BUT DOES THIS NEED ALSO APPLY TO
WHITE SUPREMACISTS OR NEO-NAZIS?

The caption changes to "Christian Picciolini, @cpicciolini."

Christian says OH, I
THINK THAT IT'S STRIKINGLY
SIMILAR, IF NOT IDENTICAL.
IT'S THIS WHOLE NARRATIVE OF,
YOU KNOW, THE WHITE RACE IS THE
GREATEST RACE, THAT THEY PROVIDE
THEIR RECRUITS, AND IT'S ALWAYS
ABOUT PROTECTING SOMETHING
THAT'S SACRED, AND, YOU KNOW,
JUST LIKE ISIS OR JUST LIKE
al-QAEDA, IT'S ABOUT PROMISING
PARADISE TO BROKEN PEOPLE WHO
HAVE HIT A WALL OVER AND OVER
AND OVER AGAIN AND ARE SO
DESPERATE THAT THEY'RE WILLING
TO PUT ASIDE AT FIRST THE
IDEOLOGY JUST TO BELONG, LIKE
MUBIN SAID.
AND TO PROTECT THIS CULTURE THAT
THEY'VE REVERED, THIS EUROPEAN
WHITE CULTURE THAT THEY SAY IS
BEING GENOCIDED BY DIVERSITY AND
MULTICULTURALISM.
THEY'RE REALLY USING FEAR
RHETORIC TO SCARE PEOPLE TO TRY
AND PROTECT SOMETHING THAT THEY
SAY IS GOING AWAY, WHICH OF
COURSE IT'S NOT.

Steve says CHRISTIAN, LET ME DO
A FOLLOW-UP WITH YOU.
IF THE IDEA IS TO PURSUE
SOMETHING SACRED, IS IT POSSIBLE
FOR THE SECULAR TO BE SEEN AS SACRED?

Christian says YOU
KNOW, I DON'T... AS FAR AS THE
MOVEMENT GOES, I DON'T THINK SO.
I THINK THAT THEY HAVE WHAT THEY
CALL, YOU KNOW, A GREATER SENSE
OF DUTY, THIS MISSION, YOU KNOW,
TO SAVE THE WHITE RACE.
SO EVERYTHING THAT THEY, YOU
KNOW, SAY TO THEIR MEMBERS OR
THEIR MOVEMENT ARE, YOU KNOW,
THAT THEY ARE THE ULTIMATE
WARRIORS, YOU KNOW, TO REALLY
MIRROR WHAT MUBIN SAID, THE
LANGUAGE IS THE SAME, THE
DRIVERS ARE THE SAME, AND THE
HOOK, YOU KNOW, TO DO SOMETHING
GREAT, TO FIND PARADISE AND TO
DESTROY THE PEOPLE THAT WANT TO
TAKE THAT AWAY FROM YOU.
YOU KNOW, WHEN I WAS IN THE
MOVEMENT 30 YEARS AGO, STEVE, I
THOUGHT I WAS SAVING THE WORLD,
AS I'M SURE MUBIN DID AS WELL,
UNTIL WE REALIZED THAT WHAT WE
WERE DOING WAS ACTUALLY
DESTROYING THE WORLD.
SO GOING BACK, YOU KNOW, TO KIND
OF THE SECULAR, YOU KNOW,
MAINSTREAM WORLD WAS ACTUALLY
MORE BENEFICIAL THAN, YOU KNOW,
THE TIME I SPENT FOR 8 YEARS IN
THAT MOVEMENT.

Steve says OKAY.
FOLLOW UP ON THIS.
MATTER OF MINUTES GET THIS
QUESTION ALL THE TIME, IS ISLAM
TRULY ISLAMIC?
SO WE'RE GOING TO ASK IT OF
WHITE SUPREMACISTS: IS IT REALLY
CHRISTIAN?

Amarnath says THERE
ARE MOVEMENTS THAT ARE DEEPLY
RELIGIOUS AND WHEN THEY TALK
ABOUT DEFENDING WESTERN VALUES,
THEY MEAN JUDEO CHRISTIAN VALUES.

Steve says PEOPLE IN
CHARLOTTESVILLE DIDN'T LOOK LIKE
THEY WERE IN THE JUDEO PART OF
JUDEO CHRISTIANISM.

The caption changes to "Amarnath Amarasingam, @AmarAmarasingam."

Amarnath says YOU
HEAR THIS IDEA THAT AMERICA IS
FOUNDED ON AN IDEA IS DEEPLY
PROBLEMATIC FOR THEM.
THEY BELIEVE, NO, IT WAS FOUNDED
BY WHITE PEOPLE AND THOSE IDEAS
CAME FROM WHITE PEOPLE.
IT'S NOT SIMPLY IT WAS FOUNDED
BY AN IDEA, IT WAS FOUNDED BY A
VERY SPECIFIC GROUP OF PEOPLE
WHO ARE NOW BEING ERODED AND
THAT CULTURAL HERITAGE IS BEING
ERODE.
THERE ARE GROUPS LIKE THAT IN
CANADA WHERE THEY THINK WHITE
PEOPLE ARE A COVENANT RACE, THAT
GOD HIMSELF GAVE WHITE PEOPLE
PROMINENCE AND THIS SECULAR
SOCIETY IS ERODING ALL OF THAT,
RIGHT?
IT DEPENDS WHAT MOVEMENT YOU'RE
TALKING ABOUT OR GROUP YOU'RE
TALKING ABOUT.
THAT'S DEFINITELY A KIND OF
ONGOING TREND I THINK.
WHETHER IT'S TRULY CHRISTIAN,
THAT'S A DIFFERENT THEOLOGICAL
QUESTION, I THINK.

Steve says HAVING SAID ALL
THIS, MIA, LET'S NOT LUMP
EVERYBODY INTO ONE CATEGORY HERE.
LET ME PUT THIS ON THE RECORD.
IN AN ONLINE STUDY OF 447
SELF-PROCLAIMED ALT-RIGHT
MEMBERS, ABOUT HALF WERE DEEMED
BY RESEARCHERS TO BE SO-CALLED
POPULISTS AND THE OTHER HALF
WHITE SUPREMACISTS.
IS THIS AN IMPORTANT DISTINCTION
TO MAKE?

The caption changes to "Mia Bloom, @miambloom."
Then, it changes again to "What makes an extremist?"

Mia says IT MIGHT BE
IMPORTANT IN TERMS OF WHAT
SOCIAL POLICIES THAT THEY
PREFER.
I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT AS
WE'RE LUMPING TOGETHER THE
ALT-RIGHT WE REALIZE YOU'RE
GOING TO HAVE A DIFFERENT LEVEL
OF RELIGIOSITY.
NOT EVERY SINGLE ALT-RIGHT IS
EITHER GOING TO BE EXTREMELY
CHRISTIAN.
SOME WILL BE CHRISTIAN IN TERMS
OF THE IDEOLOGY, A CHRISTIAN
BEING WHITE, BUT THEY'RE NOT
NECESSARILY GOING TO CHURCH AND
READING THE GOOD BOOK.
THE POPULISM I THINK REFLECTS
THE ECONOMIC INSECURITY THAT
CHRISTIAN TOUCHED UPON AT THE
BEGINNING OF THE PROGRAM.
SO THE IDEA THAT PEOPLE WILL
JOKE THAT WHEN YOU CALL UP AN
800 NUMBER AND YOU HAVE TO
(SPEAKING SPANISH)
REALLY JUST IRKS THEM.
THE IDEA THAT THE UNITED STATES
WILL NO LONGER BE ENTIRELY ANGLO
SPEAKING, THAT COME 2025 OR
2030, THAT WHITE PEOPLE WILL
ACTUALLY BE A MINORITY IN THE
UNITED STATES CAUSES THIS
REACTION, AND SO THE POPULISM
CAN BE VERY SIMILAR TO WHAT
PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS TALKING
ABOUT, MAKING AMERICA GREAT
AGAIN.
MAKING SURE THAT IT'S AMERICAN
WORKERS.
PRIVILEGING AMERICAN CITIZENS.
AND THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY JUST
GOING TO BE ONE PARTICULAR
GROUP, BUT IT DOES CORRESPOND TO
WHAT AMAR IS SAYING, THE IMAGE
OF THE UNITED STATES AS A WHITE
CHRISTIAN COUNTRY WHEN IN FACT
THE UNITED STATES IS A MELTING
POT, LIKE CANADA.

Steve says MUBIN, LET ME FOLLOW
UP WITH YOU ON THAT REACTION,
AND THAT IS, IT'S ONE THING TO
HOLD EXTREMIST VIEWS; IT'S
ANOTHER THING TO MAKE THE
DECISION THAT YOU'RE GOING TO GO
OUT AND BASH HEADS BECAUSE OF IT.
WHAT DRIVES SOMEONE TO MAKE THAT
LEAP FROM HOLDING THE VIEWS TO
VIOLENTLY EXPRESSING THEM?

The caption changes to "Leap to violence."

Mubin says YEAH.
I THINK THIS IS... IT'S A
DIFFICULT QUESTION ONLY BECAUSE
INTELLIGENCE SERVICES AND
COUNTER TERRORISM AGENCIES THAT
ARE WATCHING PEOPLE WHO ARE
EXPRESSING EXTREMIST VIEWS AND
IN SOME PLACES EXPRESSING THOSE
VIEWS IS NOT ILLEGAL BUT YET THE
STEP TO VIOLENCE CAN BE AS SHORT
AS ONE STEP.
SO ONE OF THE THINGS OR SOME OF
THE THINGS I'VE SEEN, I THINK
THE MOST PROMINENT IS THE IDEA
THAT YOU FACE EXISTENTIAL
ATTACK.
THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN IT
JUST BEING A PROBLEM VERSUS IT
BEING A PROBLEM AT YOUR DOOR
RIGHT NOW, AND THE FOLLOW-UP
QUESTION, ESPECIALLY FOR
RECRUITING IS: WHAT ARE YOU
GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?
I THINK THE IDEA RIGHT NOW
ESPECIALLY WITH FAR RIGHT IN
CANADA AND TALKING ABOUT THE
SO-CALLED INVASION OF ISLAM INTO
CANADA, CANADA IS GOING TO...
YOU KNOW, ISLAM IS GOING TO
OVERTAKE CANADA.
THIS IDEA THAT CANADA IS FACED
WITH AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT IS, I
THINK, IS SHOWING US AND GIVING
RISE TO THESE ATTACKS ON MUSLIMS
OR THE IDEA THAT ISLAM ITSELF
NEEDS TO BE ATTACKED BACK IN
RETALIATION.

Steve says CHRISTIAN, I HEARD
YOU TRYING TO GET IN THERE FOR A SECOND.

The caption changes to "Christian Picciolini. Author, 'Romantic violence.'"

Christian says YEAH,
I WANTED TO ADD IN TO WHAT MIA
SAID, AND IT WAS IMPORTANT.
AND I REALLY THINK THAT THE
POPULISM ANGLE IS REALLY THE
FIRST STEP OF RADICALIZATION TO
EXTREMISM AND THEN VIOLENT
EXTREMISM.
BECAUSE SO MANY OF THESE
MOVEMENTS HIDE BEHIND PATRIOTISM
TO MAKE THE MESSAGE MORE
PALATABLE, TO APPEAL TO THE
AVERAGE CITIZEN WHO MAY OR MAY
NOT BE A RADICAL.
IT'S THE FIRST STEP, THE ENTRY
LEVEL DRUG, SO TO SPEAK, AS IS A
SENSE OF PRIDE IN YOUR RACE.
THAT'S THE MARKETING MESSAGE.
THAT'S HOW THEY PULL PEOPLE IN
INITIALLY AND THEN RAMP UP THE
MESSAGE.

Steve says AMAR?

Amarnath says I
THINK THAT'S DEFINITELY RIGHT.
THIS IS WHERE THINGS GET A
LITTLE DANGEROUS.
WHAT YOU'RE SEEING NOW WITH A
LOT OF THESE DIFFERENT, VERY
DIVERSE GROUPS CONVERGING, IS
THEY FOUND A WEDGE ISSUE THAT
DOES HAVE POPULAR APPEAL, NAMELY
THE SYRIAN REFUGEE CRISIS, THE
LONE WOLF ATTACKS CREATING MORE
AND MORE FEAR.
YOU HAVE GROUPS LIKE REBEL
MEDIA, THE ALT-RIGHT, NEO-NAZIS
CONVERGING AROUND THESE ISSUES
THAT DO HAVE MAINSTREAM SUPPORT.
IF YOU DO A SURVEY OF CANADIAN
OPINION ON REFUGEES, IT'S
SOMEWHERE AROUND 50 PERCENT, AND
WHETHER YOU LOOK...

Steve says 50 PERCENT.

Amarnath says 50 PERCENT VIEW REFUGEES
FAVOURABLY, RIGHT?
SO THERE ARE THESE ISSUES THAT
HAVE MAINSTREAM APPEAL THAT
THESE GROUPS ARE NOW TYING INTO.
IN A WEIRD WAY YOU'RE FINDING,
FOR EXAMPLE, MEMBERS OF REBEL
MEDIA IN THE SAME ROOM AS
NEO-NAZIS ALMOST BY ACCIDENT,
EVEN AS EZRA LEVANT IS JEWISH.
PEOPLE ARE CONFUSED WHY THEY'RE
COALESCING.
THEY'RE FINDING MAINSTREAM
ISSUES THAT THINK THEY WITH THE
SUPPORT OF THE ADMINISTRATION IN
THE WHITE HOUSE THAT YOU CAN
ACTUALLY LAUNCH INTO SOME
MORE... LIKE A PLACE WHERE
YOU'RE NOT A SUB CULTURE
ANYMORE.

Steve says CHRISTIAN, I'M
TRYING TO GET A BETTER HANDLE ON
WHY THIS IS HAPPENING IN WHAT
APPEAR TO BE SO MUCH BIGGER
NUMBERS RIGHT NOW.
I KNOW IN CANADA, FOR EXAMPLE,
WE TOOK TENS OF THOUSANDS OF
SYRIAN REFUGEES.
I'M NOT SURE... WAS IT 40,000
THE FINAL NUMBER?
MAYBE NORTH OF THAT EVEN.
THE UNITED STATES, WHICH IS A
TENTH THE SIZE OF CANADA,
350 MILLION PEOPLE OR SO IN THE
UNITED STATES, AND THEY TOOK
10,000 ALTOGETHER.
HOW EXACTLY DOES THAT SPARK A
FUSE THAT LEADS TO EVERYTHING
WE'VE BEEN SEEING?

The caption changes to "Fueling the movement."

Christian says WELL,
I THINK IT'S THE PROLIFERATION
OF THE FEAR RHETORIC WE'VE HEARD
COMING OUT OF THE ADMINISTRATION
NOW FOR ALMOST 20 MONTHS.
HATRED IS BORNE OF IGNORANCE.
FEAR IS ITS FATHER AND ISOLATION
IS ITS MOTHER.
WE HAVE A LARGE SEGMENT OF OUR
POPULATION IN THE U.S. THAT IS
AFRAID OF WHAT THEY DON'T
UNDERSTAND AND THEY'RE SO
ISOLATED FROM IT THAT THEY'VE
NEVER HAD A MEANINGFUL
INTERACTION WITH THE PEOPLE THAT
THEY CLAIM THEY HATE OR ARE
AFRAID OF.
YOU KNOW, THAT DISTILS ITSELF
SOMETIMES INTO EXTREMISM OR
EXTREMIST VIOLENCE, AND WE HAVE
AN ISSUE RIGHT NOW WHERE WE'RE
SO DISCONNECTED, WE'RE ALMOST
OPERATING ON TWO PARALLEL TRACKS
IN AMERICA WHERE NEITHER TRACK
UNDERSTANDS OR BELIEVES WHAT THE
OTHER SIDE SAYS, AND THAT'S A
REALLY DANGEROUS SCENARIO,
BECAUSE THERE ARE VERY FEW
BRIDGES BETWEEN THOSE.

Steve says MIA, BESIDES THE
SYRIAN REFUGEE ISSUE, WHAT ELSE
MIGHT BE FUELLING THIS IN THE
UNITED STATES?

Mia says I THINK THE
DRIVER OR THE SPARK WAS THE
ATTACK AGAINST THE... IN SAN
BERNARDINO.
THIS IDEA THAT PERHAPS PEOPLE
MIGHT BE COMING INTO THE UNITED
STATES AND PERPETRATING ATTACKS,
INITIALLY THE ALLEGATION WAS
THAT MALIK HAD BEEN AN ISIS
BRIDE.
IN OTHER WORDS, SHE HAD COME TO
THE UNITED STATES IN ORDER TO
RADICALIZE HER HUSBAND AND
PERPETRATE TERRORIST ATTACKS.
THIS WAS EXACERBATED IN PART
DURING THE ATTACKS IN FRANCE
WHEN, OF THE 12 OR 15
ATTACKERS, THERE WERE RUMOURS
THAT SOME OF THEM MAY HAVE
ENTERED FRANCE AS REFUGEES.
SO ALL OF A SUDDEN THE ENTIRE
CONVERSATION ALMOST TWO YEARS
AGO WAS ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THE
REFUGEES COULD BE TRUSTED.
EVEN THOUGH ALL THE DATA AND
EVERY PIECE OF EVIDENCE SHOWED
THAT FOR ALL THE ATTACKS THAT
HAD EVER HAPPENED, NONE HAD
INVOLVED REFUGEES.
AND SO WHAT WE SAW IS A
POLITICAL EXPLOITATION OF WHAT
WAS GOING ON AT BATACLAN,
IN FRANCE, IN SAN BERNARDINO,
IN ORLANDO, IN ORDER TO PROMOTE
THE ALT-RIGHT PEOPLE, STEVE
BANNON AND OTHERS, TO HELP
DONALD TRUMP GET ELECTED.
MUCH OF THIS ISN'T BASED ON
FACT.
MUCH OF THIS IS BASED ON FEAR,
EXAGGERATION, AND IN FACT
IGNORING THE REAL FACTS,
IGNORING THE DATA.
IT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY THE
ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN SO
ANTAGONISTIC FOR RESEARCH ON
TERRORISM, BECAUSE RESEARCH ON
TERRORISM, WHEN YOU THROW THE
STATISTICS, BASICALLY SAYS THIS
IS NOT WHAT YOU NEED TO WORRY
ABOUT.

Steve says WELL, CHRISTIAN, I
WASN'T GOING TO RAISE THE
PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
BECAUSE EVERY TIME I DO, I GET
IN TROUBLE FROM SOME VIEWERS ON
THIS PROGRAM... ME TOO, EH?
SINCE MIA RAISED IT, LET'S GO
THERE.
HOW MUCH DOES THE CURRENT
PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
HAVE TO WEAR THIS?

The caption changes to "Subscribe to The Agenda podcasts: tvo.org/theagenda."

Christian says OH, I
THINK HE HAS TO WEAR IT COMPLETELY.
YOU KNOW, FOR 18 MONTHS WE HEARD
SOME OF THE SAME, YOU KNOW,
BIGOTED RHETORIC THAT I SAID 30
YEARS AGO WHEN I WAS A MEMBER OF
THE MOVEMENT, YOU KNOW, SPEAKING
AGAINST IMMIGRANTS OR TRYING TO
BUILD A WALL OR, YOU KNOW,
MUSLIM BAN, THINGS LIKE THAT ARE
ALL THINGS THAT WE SAID... MAYBE
USING SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT WORDS
AND THEY MAY BE USING WORDS THAT
ARE A LITTLE BIT MORE APPEALING
TO THE AVERAGE AMERICAN, BUT I
THINK HE HAS TO OWN IT.
I THINK ALL THE CABINET, WHETHER
THEY WERE PAST OR PRESENT, HAVE
TO OWN IT.
THEY CREATED THIS.
THAT'S NOT TO SAY WE DIDN'T HAVE
RACISM IN OUR COUNTRY.
WE ABSOLUTELY HAVE HAD IT.
WE'VE NEVER LIVED IN A POST
RACIAL SOCIETY AND WE'VE BEEN
SWEEPING IT UNDER THE RUG.
ALL THE FIRES THAT EXISTED, AND
EVEN INTO CANADA, ON ELECTION
DAY IT WAS AS IF A BUCKET OF
GASOLINE WAS KICKED OVER AND IT
IGNITED A FOREST FIRE.
HERE WE ARE NOW WHERE OUR
24-HOUR NEWS CYCLE IS DOMINATED
BY TALK OF NEO-NAZIS AND
ALT-RIGHT AND WHITE
SUPREMACISTS.
AND TO CONTINUE ON WHAT MIA WAS
SAYING, IT'S... MIA WAS SAYING,
IT'S TRUE.
WHILE JIHADISTS ARE A THREAT
EVERYWHERE, MORE PEOPLE HAVE
BEEN KILLED ON AMERICAN SOIL BY
WHITE SUPREMACISTS.
AND YET WE STILL DON'T CALL IT
TERRORISM.

Steve says MUBIN, I'D LIKE YOU
TO WEIGH IN ON A DEBATE THAT
HAPPENED AFTER RICHARD SPENCER,
ONE OF THE NEO-NAZI TYPES, WAS
GIVEN AN INTERVIEW AND GOT PUNCHED.
IS IT OKAY TO PUNCH A NAZI?

Mubin says NOT IF YOU'RE
A PUBLIC FIGURE.
LOOK, I'M GOING TO ECHO THE
THOUGHTS OF MY OTHER FRIENDS WHO
ARE ALSO FORMER NEO-NAZIS THAT
PUNCHING THEM IN THE HEAD, WHILE
IT LOOKS GOOD AND I'M SURE IT
WOULD FEEL GOOD, IT ACTUALLY
FEEDS INTO THEIR RHETORIC.
I MEAN, THEY SAY THAT, LISTEN,
WE ARE MARGINALIZED.
THEY WANT TO REPLACE US.
THEY WANT TO BEAT US DOWN.
LOOK.
AND RICHARD SPENCER GOT FAMOUS
WHILE HE WAS ALREADY SOMEWHAT
THERE, BUT I MEAN HE REALLY
EARNED HIS TEETH, IF YOU WILL,
BECAUSE OF THAT PUNCH IN THE
HEAD.
FOR EVERY NAZI EVERYWHERE ELSE,
IT JUST FEEDS THEIR RHETORIC,
YOU SEE?
THESE PEOPLE ARE AGAINST US.
AND NOW WHAT I FEAR IT DOES IS
IT GIVES THE REBOUND REACTION
OF, WE NEED TO BE PRE-EMPTIVELY
VIOLENT TO PREVENT US FROM BEING
PUNCHED IN THE HEAD.

Christian says NOBODY IN THE HISTORY OF THE
WORLD HAS EVER CHANGED THEIR
RACIST VIEWS BECAUSE THEY GOT
PUNCHED IN THE HEAD OR HIT, YOU
KNOW, IN THE BODY WITH A BOTTLE
OF URINE.
IN FACT, MUBIN IS ABSOLUTELY
CORRECT.
THEY GO INTO THESE MOVEMENTS
BECAUSE THEY FEEL MARGINALIZED
ALREADY.
THE MORE WE PUSH THEM AWAY, THE
MORE MARGINALIZED THEY BECOME
AND THE FURTHER THEY GO DOWN
THEIR HOLE.
I FIRMLY BELIEVE WE NEED TO
CHANGE THESE PEOPLE THROUGH ACTS
OF COMPASSION WHEN THEY LEAST
DESERVE IT FROM THE PEOPLE THEY
LEAST DESERVE IT FROM.
I KNOW THAT'S NOT A POPULAR IDEA
TO HUG A NAZI AND CERTAINLY WE
SHOULD HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE.
WHAT WAS THE MOST POWERFUL THING
AFTER THESE RALLIES WAS WHAT WE
SAW IN BOSTON WHERE 40,000
PEACEFUL PROTESTERS SURROUNDED A
COUPLE DOZEN NAZIS WITH CANDLES
AND THERE WAS NO VIOLENCE, AND
THEY WERE OUTNUMBERED AND WE
SHOWED THEM THAT WE KNOW THEY'RE
THERE AND WE'RE NOT GOING TO LET
THEM DO WHAT THEY DO, BUT WE ARE
ALSO NOT GOING TO TREAT THEM THE
SAME WAY THEY ATTACK US.

Steve says AMAR, I'D LIKE YOU
TO COMMENT ON SCOTT ATRAN WHO
HAD THIS QUOTE FROM THE
WASHINGTON POST LAST MONTH...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "A collapse of communities." The quote reads "The values of liberal and open democracy increasingly appear to be losing ground around the world to those of narrow, xenophobic ethno-nationalisms and radical Islam –similar to attacks on republican values by fascists and communists in the 1920s and 1930s.
But this is not a 'clash of civilizations'; It's a collapse of communities. Ethno-nationalist violent extremism –as well as jihadi terrorism- represent not the resurgence of traditional cultures but their unravelling. Young people unmoored from millennial traditions flail about in search of a social identity that gives personal significance and glory.
This is the dark side of globalization. Individuals radicalize while seeking identity in an increasingly flattened world."
Quoted from Scott Atran, The Washington Post. August 15, 2017.

Steve says AMAR, DO YOU WANT TO
PUT IT UP TO THE DARK SIDE OF
GLOBALIZATION AS WELL?

Amarnath says THE
SOCIOLOGIST IN ME KIND OF AGREES
WITH SOME OF THAT BUT NOT THE
OTHERS.
WHAT HE'S TOUCHING ON AND I KNOW
HE KNOWS THE LITERATURE QUITE
WELL, IS THAT WE ARE KIND OF
BOUNDING AHEAD AS YOUTH WITHOUT
ANY REAL SENSE OF FUTURE AND
WITHOUT ANY REAL LEADERSHIP
THAT'S KIND OF INTERPRETING THAT
FUTURE FOR US.
SO WE'RE MORE AND MORE FORCED TO
BUILD OUR OWN BIOGRAPHIES, BUILD
OUR OWN STORY, CREATE OUR WORLD
VIEW.
FOR SOME, THEY THRIVE IN THAT
KIND OF ENVIRONMENT.
FOR OTHERS, IT'S A DEEPLY
DISORIENTING AND TROUBLING KIND
OF PLACE TO BE, RIGHT?
AND SO THIS IS WHAT DRIVES A
KIND OF THIRST FOR CERTAINTY,
RIGHT?
A THIRST FOR THE BLACK AND
WHITE.
BECAUSE AT LEAST THAT MAKES
SENSE.
AT LEAST MY KIND OF PROBLEMS
THAT I'M GOING THROUGH ARE
DIAGNOSED IN A VERY SIMPLE WAY
THAT I CAN UNDERSTAND.
PART OF IT IS, YES, THIS YOUTH
IDENTITY OR THIS YOUTH SEARCH
FOR IDENTITY AND SOME KIND OF
CERTAINTY IN A WORLD THAT IS
INCREASINGLY NOT MAKING ANY
SENSE AND IS INCREASINGLY
DIVERSE AND ALL OF THAT.
SO I THINK PART OF THAT IS
CORRECT.
WHAT I DISAGREE WITH IS I THINK
THE UNDERCURRENT OF THAT IS
ANTILIBERAL, RIGHT?
I THINK PARTICULARLY THESE
NEO-NAZI GROUPS AND JIHADIST
GROUPS AS WELL, IT'S
FUNDAMENTALLY AN ANTILIBERAL
MOVEMENT.
THEY'RE AGAINST PLURALISM,
THEY'RE AGAINST EQUITY AND
EQUALITY, THEY'RE AGAINST GAY
RIGHTS, THEY'RE AGAINST WOMEN'S
RIGHTS.
AND SO THE CERTAINTY THAT'S
PROVIDED IN WHAT THEY'RE FINDING
IN JIHADISM AND NEO NAZISM IS
FUNDAMENTALLY ANTILIBERAL AND
ANTI-WESTERN.
THAT'S KIND OF THE UNDER CURRENT
OF THAT WHICH I SLIGHTLY
DISAGREE WITH HIS POSITION ON THAT.

Steve says MIA, THIS IS FROM
MATT K. LEWIS WRITING IN THE
DAILY BEAST EARLIER THIS MONTH...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Accusations lead to escalation?" The quote reads "The same liberals who worry that we are 'creating more terrorists' by being overly aggressive on the anti-terrorism front don't seem to worry that they might be creating 'more racists' by being overly aggressive in their opposition to racism.
This is not to say we shouldn't fight against fascism; we should. It is to say that we should fight smart. Sadly, some on the left have taken the bait.
This is not to say that left-wing iconoclasm is the moral equivalent of drone strikes, but it is to say that there are some parallels in the way extremists bait us into overreacting in order to grow extremism."
Quoted from Matt K. Lewis, The Daily Beast. September 3, 2017.

Steve says WHAT'S YOUR VIEW ON
WHETHER THE LIBERAL OVERREACTION
ON THE LEFT IS FUELLING SOME OF
THIS EXTREMIST BEHAVIOUR ON THE RIGHT?

Mia says WELL, THERE HAS
BEEN AN OVERREACTION, ESPECIALLY
ON CAMPUSES, CAMPUSES LIKE
BERKELEY OR EVEN HERE IN ATLANTA
AT EMORY, THAT ASSUMPTION IF YOU
VOTE FOR TRUMP YOU'RE A
NEO-NAZI.
THAT IS ABSOLUTELY NOT THE CASE.
THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR
TRUMP, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE
REPUBLICAN, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO
LIKE THE PRESIDENT AND IT'S NOT
NECESSARILY THE CASE THAT
THEY'RE ALL NEO-NAZIS.
ALSO THE SUPPRESSION OF FREE
SPEECH ON CAMPUSES, THAT YOU'RE
NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE A DIFFERENT
POSITION, YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO
DISCUSS CERTAIN POLITICAL VIEWS
CERTAINLY IS EXACERBATING THE
PERCEPTION THAT WE'VE BECOME
THIS OVERLY PC ENVIRONMENT, THAT
OUR YOUTH ARE VERY SUSCEPTIBLE
TO ANY KIND OF TRIGGER WARNING,
THAT WE HAVE AN ENTIRE
GENERATION OF THESE ENTITLED,
YOU KNOW, YOUNG PEOPLE WHO JUST,
WITH A 22nd PLACE RIBBON,
THINK THEY ARE ALL WINNERS.
AND SO WHEN THEY ENCOUNTER
REALITY AND THEY DON'T GET THE
JOB OR THEY DON'T SUCCEED
NECESSARILY JUST BY THE WAY FACT
THAT THEY TRIED HARD, IT'S VERY
DISCOMBOBULATING.
THAT FEEDS INTO THE RIGHT'S
NEGATIVE VIEW OF WHAT THEY WILL
SEE AS, YOU KNOW, THE ANTIFA
MOVEMENT OR THE LIBERAL
MOVEMENT.
THEY THINK THE LEFT IS AS RACIST
AS THE RIGHT.
AND OF COURSE GETTING INVOLVED
WITH, YOU KNOW, WHETHER BLUE
LIVES MATTER OR BLACK LIVES
MATTER, IT HAS ALL COMPLICATED
THE CONVERSATION, SO THAT THE
LINES ARE DRAWN IN VERY FUZZY
WAYS.
WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT.
IF WE BELIEVE IN FREE SPEECH, WE
BELIEVE IN FREE SPEECH, EVEN
SPEECH WE DON'T LIKE.
SPEECH THAT ENCOURAGES VIOLENCE
IS THE ONLY SPEECH WE CAN
DEFINITELY CLAMP DOWN ON.
BUT DISINVITING PEOPLE BECAUSE
YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT THEY'RE
GOING TO SAY OR CALLING SOMEONE
A FASCIST EVEN THOUGH THEY'VE
BEEN THE TARGET OF THE ANTILEFT
ALT-RIGHT GROUPS, THAT'S JUST
USELESS, POINTLESS VERBIAGE.
I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT
THAT WE UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING
ON WITH OUR YOUNG PEOPLE ON THE
LEFT, IS IT HAVING AN IMPACT ON
WHAT MIGHT BE THE RESULT FOR
YOUNG PEOPLE ON THE RIGHT?

Steve says IN WHICH CASE, WITH
A MINUTE AND A HALF TO GO, I
WANT TO HEAR FROM CHRISTIAN AND
MUBIN ON, OKAY, WE ARE WHERE WE
ARE.
BASED ON YOUR EXPERIENCE, HOW DO
WE TURN THE TIDE?
CHRISTIAN, YOU FIRST.

The caption changes to "What can be done?"

Christian says WELL,
I THINK WE'RE FAILING OUR YOUNG
PEOPLE IMMENSELY.
YOU KNOW, IT DOES NO GOOD TO
ARGUE IDEOLOGICALLY ONCE THEY'RE
IN THAT SPACE.
WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS FIX THE
UNDERLYING ISSUES THAT HAVE
PUSHED THEM THERE.
THAT MEANS SUPPORTING YOUNG
PEOPLE FROM THE DAY THEY'RE
BORN, GUIDE THEM AS ADULTS
INSTEAD OF DICTATING WHAT THEY
DO.
THEY'RE IDEALISTIC.
WE NEED TO PROVIDE SERVICES SO
THEY DON'T END UP FEELING
DISENCHANTED OR DISENFRANCHISED.

Steve says MUBIN, WHAT WOULD
YOU ADD TO THAT?

Mubin says EASY
QUESTION, RIGHT?
AT THE END OF THE DAY WE DO
OUTNUMBER THE HATERS BY THE
MILLIONS AND IT'S SOMETHING WE
NEED TO REMIND OURSELVES ABOUT.
AND SECONDLY, WHAT ARE WE GOING
TO DO ABOUT IT?
THERE ARE MANY THINGS WE CAN DO.
I USE THE SLOGAN, ONE TEAM, ONE
FIGHT.
IT'S TAKEN FROM THE MILITARY,
BUT I THINK IT APPLIES HERE AS
WELL.
WE HAVE A COMMON ADVERSARY.
IT IS HATE, IT IS INTOLERANCE,
IT IS THE BLACK-AND-WHITE
THINKING.
IT'S FOUND IN EVERY GROUP ACROSS
THE BOARD.
WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS IDENTIFY
IT AND TREAT IT, AND BY
IDENTIFYING IT, WE MEAN SEE
WHERE THIS IS OCCURRING, WHETHER
IT'S IN SCHOOLS, WHETHER IT'S IN
WORK PLACES.
TREAT IT.
TREAT IT EITHER BY PSYCHOSOCIAL
COUNSELLING, SUPPORT PROGRAMS,
INDIVIDUALLY, IN HOMES, GROUP
ACTIVITIES IN SOCIAL GROUP
CIRCLES, EVERYTHING.
RIGHT FROM THE NATIONAL LEVEL
ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THE
INDIVIDUAL PARENT AND CHILD
LEVEL.

The caption changes to "Producer: Eric Bombicino, @ebombicino."

Steve says GOTCHA.
I WANT TO THANK ALL FOUR OF YOU
FOR COMING ON OUR PROGRAM
TONIGHT AND SHARING YOUR WISDOM
ON WHAT IS ONE OF THE MORE
INTRACTABLE SUBJECTS IN OUR
COUNTRY AND WORLD TODAY.
THANKS TO CHRISTIAN PICCIOLINI
IN CHICAGO, CO-FOUNDER OF LIFE
AFTER HATE.
THANKS TO MIA BLOOM IN ATLANTA,
THE PROFESSOR OF COMMUNICATION
AT GEORGIAN STATE UNIVERSITY.
TO MUBIN SHAIKH, THE EX-CSIS AND
RCMP OPERATIVE, AND AMARNATH
AMARASINGAM, SENIOR RESEARCH
FELLOW AT THE INSTITUTE FOR
STRATEGIC DIALOGUE.
THANK YOU SO MUCH EVERYBODY.
GOOD TO HAVE YOU ON TVO TONIGHT.

All the guests say THANK YOU.

Watch: The Appeal of Hate