Transcript: Romanticized Exile | Dec 13, 1984

Theme music plays.

The title “Realities” appears on screen as fast clips show pictures of the hosts. With Robert Fulford, Richard Gwyn, and Naomi Loeb.

Clips show different city scenes.

Then, Naomi Loeb appears sitting in a television studio. She’s in her late thirties, with short brown hair. She’s wearing a green silk dress, and a long gold chain necklace with matching earrings.

She says HELLO, I'M NAOMI LOEB.
TRAVELLING ABROAD AND MEETING
EX-PATRIOT NORTH AMERICANS
WHO HAVE CHOSEN TO LIVE
ABROAD USUALLY PROVOKES A
TWINGE OF ENVY
IN MOST PEOPLE.
HOW ROMANTIC, DARING, AND
EXCITING IT ALL LOOKS.
AND THE POPULAR IMAGE OF
EXILES FROM THE LITERARY
WORLD, HEMINGWAY AND
FITZGERALD, FOR EXAMPLE,
MAKE THE NOTION SEEM
EVEN MORE APPEALING.
BUT AS WITH MANY THINGS IN
TODAY'S WORLD, IT'S AN IMAGE
AND NOTHING MORE.
MODERN DAY EXILES ARE MORE
OFTEN LONELY, HOMELESS PEOPLE,
LIVING IN COUNTRIES WHERE
THE CULTURE AND LANGUAGE ARE
FOREIGN, AND WHERE THE CONCEPT
OF HOME IS LITTLE MORE THAN
AN ELUSIVE DREAM.
TONIGHT, EDWARD SAID DISCUSSES
THE PLIGHT OF THE EXILE.
EDWARD SAID WAS EDUCATED
AT PRINCETON AND
HARVARD UNIVERSITIES.
HE'S PRESENTLY PAR PROFESSOR
OF ENGLISH AND COMPARATIVE
LITERATURE AT
COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY.
HE SPOKE TO ROBERT
FULFORD IN NEW YORK CITY.

A slate with the title “Realities” flashes by, and then Bob Fulford and Edward Said appear in an office for the interview.
Bob is in his sixties, clean-shaven and balding. He’s. wearing large glasses, a black three-piece suit, white shirt, and red tie.
Edward is in his forties, clean-shaven, with curly brown hair. He’s wearing a beige suit, white shirt, and brown patterned tie.

Bob says I SUPPOSE ONE OF THE CENTRAL
THEMES OF MODERN LITERATURE
IS EXILE, ISN'T IT?
WHEN YOU THINK OF THE WORD
EXILE IN CONNECTION WITH
MODERN LITERATURE, SUDDENLY,
ALL SORTS OF NAMES
SPRING TO MIND.
EZRA POUND WAS AN
EXILE ALL HIS LIFE.
VLADIMIR NABOKOV WAS AN
EXILE, FORCED INTO EXILE.
BUT THE LIST GOES ON AND ON.
I THINK ONE OF YOUR SPECIAL
INTERESTS WAS JOSEPH CONRAD...

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Edward Said. Literary Critic."

Edward says YEAH.
YOU FIND IT A LOT IN PEOPLE
WHO WERE BORN IN ONE PLACE,
LIVED IN ANOTHER, AND
WROTE IN A THIRD LANGUAGE.
SO THE IMPRESSION YOU GET IN
THE END IS AN ENTIRELY NEW
LANGUAGE IS BEING BORN.
AND THE OTHER PART OF IT
WHICH IS MOST FASCINATING,
CONRAD BEING ANOTHER
CASE, NABOKOV ALSO,
IS THE WAY THE EXILE WHO
ACQUIRES LANGUAGE, IN A SENSE,
RECREATES A LANGUAGE THAT IS
MORE ENGLISH, MORE VIRTUOSIC
THAN THAT USED BY
NATIVE WRITERS.
I MEAN IF YOU COMPARE CONRAD
WITH SOMEBODY LIKE GOLDSWORTHY
WHO WAS WRITING AT THE TIME.
I MEAN, BOTH ARE WRITING
ENGLISH, BUT THEY ARE TWO
OF SUCH DIFFERENT POWERS.

Bob says CONRAD'S BEING MUCH
THE MORE POWERFUL.

Edward says AND ALWAYS, ALWAYS, YOU GET
THE SENSE THE EXILE IS TRYING
TO DEAL WITH MATERIAL THAT IN
A SENSE CAN'T BE EXPRESSED.
THEY ARE ALWAYS AT THE
LIMIT OF THE ARTICULATE.
AND AT THE LIMIT OF
THE INTELLIGIBLE.
AND CONRAD, FOR EXAMPLE, WHO
FASCINATES ME THE MOST IS
BECAUSE IN A SENSE HE SEEMS,
IN SOME RESPECT, I MEAN,
POUND IS SO SHALL WE SAY,
DELIBERATELY EXPERIMENTAL.
CONRAD REALLY TRYING TO WRITE
LIKE A KIND OF ROAST BEEF
ENGLISHMAN ALL THE TIME.
AND YET HIS REAL NIGHTMARE IS
THE STATE AT WHICH NO ONE CAN
UNDERSTAND WHAT HE IS SAYING.
THEREFORE, FOR ME, HIS MOST
TYPICAL STORIES, A VERY LITTLE
KNOWN ONE CALLED
AMY FOSTER,
WHICH IS ABOUT A MAN WHO IS
SHIPWRECKED OFF
THE COAST OF ENGLAND.
HE'S SOMEWHERE IN
EASTERN EUROPE.
HE'S OBVIOUSLY CONRAD, A
POLE, NEVER LEARNS ENGLISH.
MARRIES AN ENGLISH GIRL, HAS A
CHILD, AND THEN IN THE END
OF THE STORY DIES.
AND THE WOMAN COMES AND TAKES
AWAY THE CHILD FROM HIM, AND
HE'S LEFT ALONE BABBLING
IN AN INCOHERENT LANGUAGE.
THAT IMAGE IS SO POWERFUL
FOR CONRAD, AND INDEED FOR
EXILES, THAT TO DIE ALONE
IN A FOREIGN COUNTRY, EVEN
THOUGH YOU SPEAK THE LANGUAGE
TO A CERTAIN EXTENT, YET
NOBODY CAN UNDERSTAND YOU.

Bob says AND THAT'S REALLY CENTRAL
TO THOSE PEOPLE'S FEELINGS.
WHAT ABOUT JAMES
JOYCE, FOR INSTANCE?
HE RECOMMENDED TO WRITERS,
WHAT WAS IT, SILENCE, EXILE
AND CUNNING.

Edward says YEAH.
THAT WAS THE ADVICE, NOT
REALLY THE ADVICE, BUT THE
MOTTO THAT STEPHEN -- SEE,
JOYCE WAS INTERESTING BECAUSE
HE REALLY WASN'T AN EXILE.
NOBODY THREW HIM
OUT OF IRELAND.

Bob says HE COULD HAVE STAYED THERE.

Edward says HE COULD HAVE STAYED.
AND AS ONE OF HIS BIOGRAPHERS
says, HE SORT OF PICKED A
QUARREL WITH IRELAND,
THEN LEFT IN ANGER.
AND THEN EVERY TIME THE QUARREL
WAS ABOUT TO BE HEALED,
HE'D PICK ANOTHER ONE.
SO HE KEPT HIMSELF AWAY.
SO FOR HIM, EXILE WAS
A KIND OF DETACHMENT.
A KIND OF PERSPECTIVE OF
ESTRANGEMENT AND HOSTILITY.
AND HE WROTE OUT OF THAT.
IT'S AS IF HE ADOPTED
THE CLOTHES OF EXILE,
OR THE POWER OF EXILE,
WITHOUT ACTUALLY BEING ONE.

Bob says IN JOYCE'S CASE, HE WAS
REALLY SO IRISH A WRITER,
THE MOST IRISH OF ALL
POSSIBLE WRITERS.
AND
ULYSSES
IS THE MOST
DUBLINISH BOOK YOU COULD
POSSIBLY WRITE, YET IT
WAS ALL WRITTEN ABROAD.
HE WAS ABROAD NOT WRITING
ABOUT EUROPE, BUT WRITING
ABOUT THIS PLACE
HE'D LEFT BEHIND.

Edward says YEAH, THAT'S ANOTHER THING
ABOUT THE EXILE IS THAT THE
EXILE IS HAUNTED BY THE
PLACE HE HAS LEFT BEHIND,
AND IN A SENSE CAN
ONLY WRITE ABOUT THAT.
AND JOYCE'S OBSESSION WITH
IRELAND, AND THINGS IRISH,
WHICH GROWS AS HE GETS OLDER
AND OLDER, AND IN A SENSE,
IRELAND, IN FOR EXAMPLE,
FINNEGAN'S WAKE
BECOMES
REALLY THE WHOLE WORLD.
I MEAN THE PLACE LEFT BEHIND
SWALLOWS UP EVERYTHING, EVEN
ONE'S IMMEDIATE SURROUNDINGS,
WHICH IN JOYCE'S CASE
HAPPENED TO BE PARIS OR
TRIESTE OR ZURICH OR WHATEVER.

Bob says BUT WE ARE PRESENTING THIS
IN A KIND OF DEPRESSING WAY.
THERE MUST BE A TREMENDOUS
FREEDOM OR OPENING THAT EXILE
ALLOWS TO THESE WRITERS
BECAUSE THEY, NOT THE WRITERS
WHO STAYED HOME, TURNED OUT
TO BE THE DOMINANT VOICES
OF THE CENTURY.
THERE WERE AN AWFUL LOT OF
IRISH WRITERS WHO STAYED IN
IRELAND, AND AN AWFUL LOT OF
RUSSIAN WRITERS WHO STAYED
IN RUSSIA, AND SO ON.

Edward says YEAH.
I DON'T KNOW.
I THINK MAYBE ONE COULD SAY
THAT, BUT IT DOES SEEM TO ME
THERE IS ALWAYS SOMETHING
FINALLY DEPRESSING ABOUT IT.
AT THE SAME TIME, I THINK WHAT
YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT IS A
KIND OF EXUBERANCE OR...

Bob says FREEDOM.

Edward says OKAY, FREEDOM,
OF A CERTAIN KIND.
BUT IT'S ALWAYS CIRCUMSCRIBED
BY SOMETHING THAT ENABLES YOU
TO LOOK AT OTHER PEOPLE WHO
ARE AT HOME WITH A CERTAIN
KIND OF RESENTMENT.
IN THE END, THEY'RE AT
HOME AND YOU ARE NOT.
AND YOU OVERCOMPENSATE FOR IT,
AND YOU CREATE YOUR OWN WORLD.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT
FASCINATES ME ABOUT EXILES IS
THE EXTENT TO WHICH, FOR
EXAMPLE, WRITER -- WELL,
NABOKOV IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE,
WRITERS ARE INTERESTED, NOT
ONLY IN WRITING, OF COURSE,
BUT IN SPECIAL GAMES LIKE CHESS.
CHESS IS THE REAL EXILE'S
GAME, WHERE YOU DO SOMETHING
BRILLIANTLY, BUT ON A SPACE,
THAT IN THE END IS JUST A BOARD.
IT'S NOT THE REAL
WORLD, IN A SENSE.

Bob says IT'S ABSOLUTELY CONTAINED.
IN A WAY, I GUESS SIMILAR TO
SOME OF NABOKOV'S NOVELS.
CONTAINED.
HE CREATES A SYSTEM.

Edward says EXACTLY.
YOU FIND IT IN JOYCE.
THE IMPRESSION YOU GET WITH
THESE EXILE WRITERS IS NOT
ONLY THAT THEY ARE
EXTRATERRITORIAL IN A SENSE,
BUT THEY ARE OVERCOMPENSATING BY
DOING TREMENDOUS TOUR DE FORCE.
A TREMENDOUS TOUR DE
FORCE IN THEIR WORK.
AND I ASSUME THERE'S A CERTAIN
PLEASURE IN THAT, BEING ABLE
TO OVERCOME SORT OF
NATIONAL BARRIERS.

Bob says IN THE '20s, AMERICANS THREW
UP A WHOLE GENERATION OF
WRITERS WHO VOLUNTARILY EXILED
THEMSELVES, AND NOT JUST AT
THE LEVEL OF POUND AND ELLIOT,
BUT THE MORE UNIVERSALLY READ
NOVELISTS SUCH AS HEMINGWAY
AND FITZGERALD, AND SO ON.
THEY STOOD FOR A
GENERATION, IN A WAY.

Edward says YEAH.
I WOULD MAKE A
DISTINCTION BETWEEN THEM.
IF YOU THINK OF, LOOK, EVEN
CONRAD WHO CAME TO ENGLAND IN
THE '80s OF THE 19th CENTURY,
WAS NOT, STRICTLY SPEAKING,
AN EXILE.
HE COULDN'T GO BACK TO POLAND
FOR VARIOUS REASONS, BUT THE
WRITERS YOU MENTION ARE REALLY
EMIGRES OR EX-PATRIOTS,
ALL OF WHOM CAME TO
EUROPE BY CHOICE.
THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO COME.
I MEAN, THEY WERE NOT THROWN
OUT OF THEIR COUNTRIES.
AND LOOKING BACK ON PEOPLE
LIKE HEMINGWAY AND FITZGERALD
WITH A CERTAIN, SHALL WE SAY
STRICTNESS, THERE IS SOMETHING
IN THE END, I WOULDN'T SAY
FRIVOLOUS ABOUT THEM, BUT
SOMEHOW THE RIGOURS OF THE
EXILE'S FATE, SUCH AS EXILES
THAT WERE DRIVEN OUTS OF
FASCIST EUROPE IN THE '30s,
THEY DON'T SHARE THAT FATE.
THERE'S A CERTAIN
AMOUNT OF PLEASURE.
YOU KNOW, THEY DO ALSO STAND
FOR A KIND OF HEDONISM.
AND, OF COURSE, I MEAN,
HEMINGWAY GOES TO SPAIN TO
DISCOVER A CERTAIN MACHO
EXPERIENCE IN BULLFIGHTING
AND SO ON AND SO FORTH.
THAT'S NOT QUITE THE SAME
THING AS FINDING YOURSELF
LIKE CONRAD'S YANKO GOORALL
IN A STRANGE COUNTRY WITH
NOBODY WHO UNDERSTANDS YOU.
I MEAN, THAT'S A
DIFFERENT THING.
IT'S RELATED TO IT, BUT IT'S
PART OF THE SAME PROBLEMATIC,
OR THE SAME GROUP OF
EXPERIENCES, WHICH IS TO TRY
TO GET OUT OF CONFINES
OF ONE'S NATIVE PLACE,
WHICH ARE SEEN AS
SORT OF CONSTRICTING.

Bob says IT IS RELATED, TOO, IN A WAY,
ON THE OTHER MORE FRIVOLOUS
SIDE TO TOURISM.

Edward says YES, ABSOLUTELY.
OF COURSE.

Bob says HEMINGWAY WAS NEVER, THOUGH
HE WAS INVOLVED IN A WAR,
PERHAPS, IN SPAIN, HE WAS
NEVER COMMITTED TO THAT COUNTRY.
HE NEVER HAD TO SAY I'M A
SPANIARD FOREVER, OR I'M PART
OF SPAIN FOREVER, WHICH IS
WHAT REALLY NABOKOV HAD TO SAY
ABOUT THE WEST, ABOUT
THE UNITED STATES.

Edward says YEAH, TOURISM IS A VERY GOOD,
I MEAN, THAT PHENOMENON OF
TRAVELLING TO PLACES TO
DISCOVER DIFFERENT KINDS OF
EXPERIENCES, THERE'S A TRADITION
OF THAT IN WESTERN WRITING.
AND I THINK, GENERALLY
SPEAKING, THE SO-CALLED LOST
GENERATION OF WRITERS WHO WENT
TO PARIS AND SPAIN AND SO ON
IN THE '20s, ARE PART OF
THAT, RATHER THAN THE EXILE
TRADITION, WHICH IS SOMETHING
QUITE DIFFERENT, WHICH I
THINK DERIVES FROM THINGS
LIKE BANISHMENT, WAR, AND IN
THE 20th CENTURY, THE MASS
MOVEMENT OF POPULATIONS.
WHICH IS QUITE A DIFFERENT
THING THAN CHOOSING TO LEAVE
SMALL TOWN MICHIGAN, LET'S
SAY, AND GOING TO PARIS.

Bob says OR CHOOSING, AS HENRY JAMES
DID, TO GO TO EUROPE AND
EXAMINE EUROPE
AGAINST AMERICA.

Edward says ACTUALLY, HE WENT TO EUROPE FOR
OTHER REASONS THAT THAN EVEN.
HE THOUGHT AMERICA
WAS A THIN PLACE.
IN A BOOK HE WROTE ABOUT
HAWTHORNE HE SAYS,
AMERICA DOESN'T
EVEN HAVE ASCOT.
DOESN'T HAVE ANY
LORDS AND LADIES.
NO CARRIAGES.
IT'S JUST A KIND OF THIN
AND UNINTERESTING PLACE.
AND THERE'S THE RESONANCE AND
DENSITY OF EUROPEAN LIFE.
AND AS YOU SAY, TO COMPARE
THE TWO BECOMES HIS GREAT
INTERNATIONAL THEME.

Bob says BUT THESE PEOPLE ARE SORT OF
A SMALL ELITE, AREN'T THEY,
WHO EXPRESS ALL THIS?
BENEATH THAT, THE WORD EXILE
CONVEYS SOMETHING ENTIRELY
DIFFERENT FOR MILLIONS AND
MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE
AMONG US, AND A NUMBER OF THEM
IN NORTH AMERICA, BUT ALL
OVER THE WORLD, TOO,
THERE ARE EXILES.
PEOPLE ON THE MOVE.
PEOPLE WHO ARE FORCED
TO BE ON THE MOVE.
AND FOR THEM, THE EXPERIENCE
OF EXILE IS ENTIRELY DIFFERENT.

Edward says YEAH, BECAUSE I MEAN, YOU
KNOW, WHAT YOU ARE SAYING,
WHICH I AGREE WITH, IS THERE
ARE TWO KINDS OF EXILE.
AND I THINK ONE WAY OF LOOKING
AT EXILE IS A LITERARY THEME,
WHICH IS TERRIBLY IMPORTANT
TO MODERN LITERATURE.
AND HISTORICALLY YOU SEE IT.
VIRGIL WAS AN EXILE.
OR WROTE ABOUT EXILE, AND
RIGHT THROUGH THE RENAISSANCE
AND SO ON, THERE WERE PEOPLE
THAT WANDERED ABOUT AND SO ON.
AND HUMANISM COMES OUT
OF IT, FOR EXAMPLE, AND
UNDERSTANDING OTHER PARTS
OF THE WORLD, SO ON AND SO
FORTH, ONE COULD GIVE A WHOLE
LITANY OF VIRTUES TO EXILE.
BUT AS I SAY, THAT'S A SMALL
GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO CAN
BENEFIT FROM IT.
WHAT INTERESTS ME IN IT IS,
IN THE, SAY, BEGINNING OF THE
19th CENTURY, WITH THE SCALE
OF PUBLIC CONFLICT, WHEN WAR IS
NO LONGER ONLY FOUGHT BY
ARMIES ON A DISTANT FIELD, BUT
BECOMES SOMETHING THAT YOU
HAVE TO RECKON WITH IN YOUR
DAILY LIFE, YOU HAVE MASS
MOVEMENTS OF PEOPLE.
YOU HAVE REFUGEES, REALLY.
AND FOR THEM, EXILE IS
SOMETHING THAT IS A DEEPLY
PAINFUL EXPERIENCE.
AND IN A CURIOUS SORT OF
WAY, THERE IS VERY LITTLE IN
COMMON BETWEEN THEIR
EXPERIENCE OF EXILE, IF YOU
THINK OF INDIANS MOVING
ACROSS THE BORDER, MUSLIMS,
DURING THE DIVISION OF
INDIA, THE PARTITION OF INDIA
IN 1947, IF YOU THINK OF
THE MOVEMENTS OF PEOPLES IN
AFRICA, AND OTHER PARTS OF
ASIA AND THE MIDDLE EAST AND
LATIN AMERICA, AND ELSEWHERE,
AUSTRALIA, A LOT OF THE
EXPERIENCE OF EXILE SIMPLY
NEVER GETS EXPRESSED.
AND THE GLAMOUR THAT YOU FIND
IN NABOKOV AND JOYCE AND
HEMINGWAY AND SO ON, POUND,
BELONGS TO A DIFFERENT WORLD.

Bob says AND YOU FIND NOT ONLY GLAMOUR
BUT TERRIFIC RICHNESS AND IRONY.
THEY ARE PICKING UP, NABOKOV
IS WANDERING THROUGH THE
ENGLISH LANGUAGE, PICKING
THIS UP AND LEARNING.

Edward says YEAH.
IT'S KIND OF A GAME.

Bob says BECAUSE THEY ARE ARTICULATE.

Edward says BECAUSE THEY CAN
SPEAK ABOUT IT, YEAH.
AND WHAT I'M INTERESTED IN
IS WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO
CAN'T SPEAK ABOUT IT?
AND A WHOLE NEW
PATTERN IMPOSES ITSELF.
AND THAT PATTERN IS, ONE OF
THE THINGS, OBVIOUSLY, AN
EXILE HAS TO DO, WELL,
FIRST OF ALL, THERE ARE
INTERNATIONAL AGENCIES
FOR THE EXILE.
THERE'S THE UNRWA, THERE'S
THE INTERNATIONAL REFUGEE
ORGANIZATION, HIGH COMMISSIONERS
FOR REFUGEES, AND SO ON.

Bob says WE HAD AN INTERNATIONAL
REFUGEE YEAR.

Edward says THE YEAR OF THE REFUGEE.
I'M NOT SURE HOW MANY REFUGEES
GOT MUCH BENEFIT FROM IT,
BUT YOU HAD THAT.
THEN YOU HAVE THE
COMPENSATION.
IN OTHER WORDS, WHAT DO YOU DO
WHEN YOU FIND YOURSELF IN A
NEW COUNTRY.
THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF IT,
REFUGEES, BUT LET'S SAY YOU'RE
AN ARMENIAN, YOU KNOW?
AND YOUR PEOPLE HAS DISPERSED
AS A RESULT OF THE MASSACRES
IN TURKEY IN THE
EARLY 20th CENTURY.
WELL, A LOT OF THINGS, SOME
PEOPLE IMMEDIATELY ASSIMILATE
TO THE NEW ENVIRONMENT.
THEY BECOME AMERICAN OR
EGYPTIAN, OR WHATEVER,
TALKING ABOUT ARMENIANS NOW.
OTHERS WANT TO
RECONSTITUTE THE NATION.
IN OTHER WORDS, THEY START TO
FOUND NATIONALIST MOVEMENTS
FOR REPATRIATION, AND SO ON.
AND THEN A THIRD CATEGORY ARE
THE PEOPLE WHO NEVER ASSIMILATE,
WHO REMAIN OUT
OF PLACE FOREVER.

Bob says THEY DON'T HAVE A NATIONALISM
HOLDING THEM UP, AND THEY
DON'T HAVE
ASSIMILATION, EITHER.

Edward says RIGHT, EXACTLY.
AND THEY REMAIN SORT OF
BETWEEN AND BETWIXT.
THEY'RE MAROONED.
THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT
INTEREST ME IN PARTICULAR.
THE PEOPLE WHO ARE
ALWAYS OUT OF PLACE.
AND HERE AND THERE, YOU SEE
THEM SYMBOLIZED, FOR ME, AT
LEAST IN THE 20th CENTURY, AND
CERTAINLY IN THE THIRD WORLD.
BECAUSE THE EUROPEAN EXILE AND
REFUGEE IS VERY MUCH IN THE
LIMELIGHT TO A CERTAIN DEGREE.
ONE THINKS OF ALL THE EMIGRE
PHILOSOPHERS AND SCIENTISTS
WHO CAME TO THIS COUNTRY,
WELL, TO UNITED STATES
AND CANADA, I SUPPOSE.
BUT WHAT ABOUT ALL THE OTHERS?
AND THERE YOU FIND THEM IN
PARTS OF THE WORLD THAT ARE
NOT GLAMOROUS.
IN PLACES LIKE
BEIRUT AND BANGKOK.

Bob says MEXICO CITY.

Edward says MEXICO CITY.
MADAGASCAR, YOU KNOW,
PLACES LIKE THAT.
AND THEN ALL OF THE EXILES
FROM SOUTH AFRICA WHO ARE IN
THE ADJOINING COUNTRIES,
WHO ARE STUCK THERE.
AND, FOR ME, THE SYMBOL OF
THAT FATE WOULD BE THE POET.
WHO IS, OF COURSE, ENCHAINED
OR TIED TO HIS LANGUAGE IN
ANOTHER COUNTRY WHERE
HE'S NOT INTERESTED --

Bob says AND THEY'RE NOT
INTERESTED IN HIM.

Edward says AND THEY'RE NOT
INTERESTED IN HIM.
HE MAY BE A SYMBOL FOR
SOME MOVEMENT OR OTHER.
I MEAN, ONE OF THE EXAMPLES
THAT HAUNTS ME IS A GREAT URDU
POET, A MAN CALLED FAIZ
AHMED FAIZ, WHO WAS KICKED OUT
OF PAKISTAN BY ZIA UL'HAQ,
AND HE ENDED UP IN BEIRUT.
AND IN BEIRUT, THIS IS BEFORE
THE ISRAELI INVASION OF '82,
IN BEIRUT, HE WAS SORT OF
ADOPTED BY THE PALESTINIANS
BECAUSE HE WAS A
PROGRESSIVE MAN.
A GREAT -- PROBABLY THE
GREATEST POET IN THE
INDIAN SUBCONTINENT.
AND HE JUST SAT THERE.
AND I SAW HIM ONE NIGHT.
HE DRANK A GREAT DEAL.
HE HAD TO WRITE IN URDU.
HE HAD A DEGREE IN
ENGLISH LITERATURE.
HE DIDN'T WRITE IN ENGLISH.
AND HE WAS IN AN
ARABIC-SPEAKING CITY.
AND HE WOULD SIT THERE AT
NIGHT, FOR MY BENEFIT BECAUSE
A PAKISTANI FRIEND OF MINE
CAME TO VISIT BEIRUT, RECITING
URDU POETRY IN THE MIDDLE OF
THE NIGHT IN A DINGY BEIRUT
RESTAURANT, IN A SENSE
WITH NO ONE TO HEAR HIM.
AND THAT'S REALLY
THE EPITOME OF IT.
WHAT HE SAYS IS
JUST, I'M NOT THERE.
AND THERE'S ALWAYS A HINT
TOWARDS THE HOMELAND,
WHICH WAS LEFT BEHIND.

Bob says IN A SENSE, THOUGH,
HE HAS ONE THING.
HE HAS HIS POETRY AS
A KIND OF HOMELAND.
HE HAS HIS LANGUAGE AS A
HOMELAND WHICH CAN TRAVEL
WITH HIM.
WHEREAS OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE
NOT SO ARTICULATE AND NOT SO
TIED TO LANGUAGE BY PROFESSION
OR ANY OTHER FEELING,
THEY'RE LOST.

Edward says THEY'RE TOTALLY LOST.
AND THAT'S WHERE SOMETHING
QUITE, TO MY MIND, PERNICIOUS.
BUT OF COURSE I SPEAK
AS A PRIVILEGED PERSON.
BECAUSE THEN YOU BEGIN TO SEE
THEY ADOPT THE LANGUAGE OF
WHERE THEY HAPPEN TO BE.
AND THAT LANGUAGE, THE NEW
LANGUAGE, TENDS TO BE STRIDENT.
IT TENDS TO BE, IN A SENSE,
OF EXCLUDING PEOPLE WHO DON'T
IMMEDIATELY AGREE WITH
WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.
I'M THINKING OF THE
RECONSTITUTED NATIONALISMS.
YOU KNOW, THE REFUGEE ARMIES
THAT FREQUENT THE OTHER
POWERS EXPLOIT.
AND THAT LANGUAGE IS, YOU
KNOW, WELL IT'S A LANGUAGE
OF THE MASS.
AND IT'S DESIGNED, I THINK, TO
GET THE INDIVIDUAL WHO IS IN
EXILE TO LOSE HIS IDENTITY
AND FORGET ABOUT THE ANGUISH
OF NOT BEING IN
YOUR NATIVE PLACE.

Bob says YOU MEAN, WHEN YOU LEARN
ENGLISH WHEN YOU MOVE
TO NORTH AMERICA?

Edward says YEAH, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
OR USE THE OLD LANGUAGE IN A
TOTALLY SORT OF INAPPROPRIATE
WAY, I MEAN BECAUSE IT'S NOT,
WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO STILL
SPEAK UKRAINIAN OR ARABIC IN
A SETTING LIKE NORTH AMERICA?
YOU DO IT IN ORDER TO ASSERT
BELONGING TO A NEW GROUP,
WHICH IS USUALLY
VERY INTRANSIGENT.
WHICH IS USUALLY VERY, I MEAN,
IS NOT OPEN TO EXPERIENCES OF
A CERTAIN KIND.
AND IS DESIGNED TO FORGET
ABOUT THE LONELINESS AND THE
THING THAT UNDERMINES EVERY
EXILE'S ACHIEVEMENTS,
NAMELY THE LOSS OF HOME.

Bob says IN CANADA, PART OF THE OFFICIAL
IDEOLOGY IS MULTICULTURALISM.
WHICH REALLY MEANS, WHICH
IS REALLY A WAY OF SAYING
SOMEWHAT OFFICIALLY, THE
GOVERNMENT IS SAYING TO
IMMIGRANT GROUPS, YOU
DON'T HAVE TO ASSIMILATE.
YOU CAN CONTINUE TO BE
UKRAINIAN OR ARABIC AND LIVE
AMONG US AND BE AS GOOD A
CANADIAN AS THE NEXT PERSON,
AND SO ON.
BUT THIS TENDS TO HAVE A
KIND OF FALSE OR SUPERFICIAL
FEELING TO IT.

Edward says OF COURSE.
OF COURSE.
BECAUSE THEY KNOW
THEY ARE NOT AT HOME.
AND IN THE CASE OF THE ONES
WHO COULDN'T BE AT HOME FOR
POLITICAL REASONS, EXILE IN
THE STRICT SENSE OF THE WORD,
MASSES OF THEM WOULD BE
REFUGEES, THE FOSTERING OF THE
OLD LANGUAGE AND THE OLD
WAYS IN A PLURALISTIC OR
MULTICULTURAL ENVIRONMENT
IS ALMOST A PARODY.
THERE'S SOMETHING, I
WOULDN'T SAY COMIC ABOUT IT,
BUT IT'S REDUCED.
AND I THINK REDUCING.
MUCH BETTER TO JUST FORGET,
IF YOU CAN, AND JUST BECOME
A CANADIAN.
WHAT IS THE MEANING
OF -- I DON'T KNOW.
THESE ARE QUESTIONS
I CAN'T ANSWER.
THEY STRIKE ME AS SO
ANGUISHING, AND SO DIFFICULT.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO HOLD
ON TO HOLD TRADITIONS THAT
HAVE NO USE ANYMORE, YOU SEE?
THAT WOULD BE THE
OTHER SIDE OF IT.

Bob says IN YOUR CASE, AS A
PALESTINIAN, YOU ARE STILL
HOLDING TO THE IDEA OF
THE PALESTINIAN NATION,
ARE YOU NOT?

Edward says I AM.
I FREQUENTLY WONDER
WHAT IT REALLY MEANS.
I'VE LOST A LOT OF MY PAST
IN A FUNNY SORT OF WAY.
I WAS BORN IN PALESTINE.
AND THE LAST TIME I WAS
THERE WAS LATE 1947.
I GREW UP IN EGYPT.
AND THEN THE LAST TIME I WAS
IN EGYPT -- I MEAN, I CAME TO
THIS COUNTRY AND WHEN I WAS
LIVING IN AMERICA, I WAS GOING
TO SCHOOL, MY WHOLE FAMILY
WAS IN THE MIDDLE EAST.
AND FOR ME, THIS WAS JUST
A KIND OF TEMPORARY THING.
I WAS JUST GETTING EDUCATED.
THEN, AFTER EGYPT, MY
FAMILY MOVED TO LEBANON.
AND I COULDN'T GO BACK TO
EGYPT FOR POLITICAL REASONS.
I COULDN'T GO BACK TO PALESTINE
FOR POLITICAL REASONS.
I NOW CAN'T GO TO LEBANON
FOR POLITICAL REASONS.
I MEAN, THE THREE PLACES I
KNEW MOST WHEN I WAS A KID
GROWING UP ARE PLACES THAT
ARE CLOSED TO ME FOR
VARIOUS REASONS NOW.
AND BECAUSE I'M ARTICULATE, I
SUPPOSE, AND I HAVE THINGS TO
SAY ABOUT IT, I GOT INVOLVED
IN THE WHOLE PALESTINIAN DRAMA.
BUT I THINK, FOR ME,
PALESTINE IS LOST.
IT'S AN IDEA.
IT'S A STRUGGLE FOR WHAT
I CONSIDER TO BE JUSTICE.
IT ISN'T ABSTRACT BECAUSE I
SEE MEMBERS OF MY FAMILY AND
MEMBERS OF MY PEOPLE IN
HORRIBLE CONDITIONS.
THEY ARE MASSACRED OR
PUSHED AROUND OR WHATEVER,
AND THAT ENGAGES ME.
BUT AS FOR ME, MYSELF, I MEAN,
I THINK I'M AN EXILE FOR THE
REST OF MY -- I MEAN, IT'S
NEVER GOING TO CHANGE.

Bob says YOU'RE A CITIZEN OF
THE UNITED STATES.

Edward says I AM.

Bob says AND I PRESUME YOU EXPECT
YOU ALWAYS WILL BE?

Edward says YEAH, OF COURSE.
I MEAN, I SOMETIMES THINK, YOU
KNOW, AS THE ZIONISTS USED TO
THINK, IF THERE IS A
PALESTINIAN HOMELAND, AS I
HOPE THERE WILL BE, OF
GOING TO LIVE THERE.
BUT EVEN SO IT WON'T BE
A PALESTINE THAT I KNEW.
AND IT WILL BE A
DIFFERENT PLACE.
AND I THINK, FOR ME, AND THIS
IS WHAT INTERESTS ME IN THE
EXILE'S FATE, EXILE IS
A PERMANENT CONDITION.
IT'S NOT SOMETHING YOU
CAN ALLEVIATE FINALLY.

Bob says THE PALESTINIANS HAVE HAD
REMARKABLE SUCCESS IN EXILE.
WHEN THEY WERE IN PALESTINE,
IN THE 1920s-1930s, BEFORE THE
FIRST ARAB-ISRAELI WAR, THEY
WERE NOT NOTED FOR ANYTHING
IN PARTICULAR BY THE
OUTSIDE WORLD.

Edward says QUITE BORING, ACTUALLY.

Bob says AND YET, WHEN THEIR EXILE
HAPPENED, WHEN THEY MOVED
AWAY, THEY BECAME QUITE
REMARKABLE PEOPLE IN MANY WAYS.
NOW, THAT INDICATES THERE
IS SOMETHING STIMULATING,
EXHILARATING, CHALLENGING
ABOUT EXILE THAT MADE THEM
INTO SOMETHING.
BECAUSE IF YOU GO TO SOMEWHERE
IN EGYPT, YOU FIND SOME OF
THE MOST REMARKABLE PEOPLE
ARE PALESTINIANS OR ANOTHER
ARAB COUNTRY.
AND IN SOME PLACES
IN THE WEST, TOO.

Edward says I THINK THERE ARE LOTS
OF REASONS FOR THAT.
I THINK ONE OF THEM IS
THAT PALESTINE IS NOT
AN ORDINARY PLACE.
I DON'T MEAN TO MAKE
COMPARISONS, BUT I MEAN,
THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
PALESTINE AND SAY OTHER
COUNTRIES WHICH HAVE
SUFFERED TRAUMAS.
I MEAN, IT IS THE PLACE WHERE
THE MONOTHEISTIC RELIGIONS,
IN A SENSE, WERE
MANUFACTURED, REALLY.

Bob says JERUSALEM IS THERE.

Edward says JERUSALEM IS THE
CENTRE OF THE WORLD.
I MEAN, IF YOU LIVED -- I
MEAN, I'M FROM JERUSALEM.
THAT TO ME IDENTIFIES ME
IN SOME HIGHLY SPECIAL,
ALTHOUGH NOT TERRIBLY
PLEASANT WAY.
SO THERE'S THAT,
NUMBER ONE.
SO ATTENTION IS
ATTRACTED TO THEM.
SECOND, IS THAT PALESTINIANS,
FOR ALL THEIR ORDINARINESS AND
BANALITY, ARE OBSESSED WITH
THE IDEA OF RETAINING
THEIR IDENTITY.
AND FOR THEM, THE WAY
TO DO IT IS EDUCATION.
SO THEY ARE THE MOST EDUCATED
PEOPLE IN THE MIDDLE EAST.
CERTAINLY IN THE ARAB WORLD.
AND THIRD, THE PALESTINIANS
ARE FANTASTICALLY POLITICIZED.
THEY LIVE IN AN ATMOSPHERE
THAT ENCOURAGES THE RETENTION
OF THEIR IDENTITY.
AND THEY HAVE THE SAME
COMMITMENT TO A HOMELAND THAT
ANY OTHER PEOPLE DOES.
AND, OF COURSE, NOT TO FORGET,
THAT MUCH OF THE PALESTINIAN
STRUGGLE HAS BECOME NOT ONLY
THE SYMBOL OF AN ARAB NATIONAL
CAUSE, BUT IT IS, IN A SENSE,
THE SYMBOL OF THE ENTIRE
THIRD WORLD ENCOUNTER
WITH THE WEST.
I MEAN, IF YOU'RE IN BANGKOK
OR SRI LANKA, OR EVEN IN JAPAN
THAT YOU'RE A PALESTINIAN, YOU
IMMEDIATELY STAND OUT FROM
THE CROWD OF SORT OF THIRD
WORLD EXPERIENCES OF
REFUGEEDOM AND EXILE.
BECAUSE IT IS SUCH
A POTENT SYMBOL.
AND FOURTH, AND NOT LEAST
IMPORTANT, IS THAT THE
ENCOUNTER BETWEEN PALESTINIANS
AND JEWS HAS GIVEN A CERTAIN
DIMENSION TO IT.
BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT DEALING
WITH AN ORDINARY GROUP OF WHITE
SETTLERS COMING FROM EUROPE,
AS WE CHARACTERIZED THEM.
THESE ARE THE JEWS.
THEY ARE NOT ONLY SEMITES,
BUT THEY ARE ALSO REMARKABLE
PEOPLE WITH A HISTORY OF
EXILE AND SUFFERING, TOO.

Bob says AND, IN FACT, THEIR HISTORY,
OVER A VERY MUCH LONGER PERIOD
OF EXILE, SOUNDS IN OUTLINE...

Edward says RATHER LIKE OURS.

Bob says RATHER LIKE YOURS.

Edward says THAT'S TRUE.
AND, OF COURSE, TO ME, THE MOST
INTERESTING PART OF IT IS THE
EXTENT TO WHICH, NOT MANY JEWS
WILL ADMIT THIS, I THINK, BUT
SOME DO, THE EXTENT TO WHICH
THE PALESTINIAN DRAMA OF THE
MIDDLE TO LATE 20th CENTURY
IS A KIND OF REPETITION
OF WHAT HAPPENED TO THE JEWS.
I MEAN, WE'RE FREQUENTLY
REFERRED TO AS THE JEWS
IN THE ARAB WORLD, A.
B, WHAT IS BEING DONE
TO US WAS DONE TO JEWS.
AND I WEIGH MY WORDS
VERY CAREFULLY.
I MEAN THE DETENTION CAMPS.
YOU'RE A PALESTINIAN, YOU HAVE
SPECIAL -- WHEN THEY OCCUPY
SOUTH LEBANON.
PALESTINIANS WERE
IN THE CAMPS.
I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT
FIGHTERS, I'M JUST TALKING
ABOUT PLAIN PEOPLE, WERE TREATED
DIFFERENTLY FROM LEBANESE.
THEY HAVE SPECIAL MARKINGS.
THEY WEAR SPECIAL SIGNS.
THEY WERE MARKED WITH CRAYONS
AND SPRAY PAINT ON THEIR SHIRTS.
IN MOST COUNTRIES IN THE
MIDDLE EAST, FOR EXAMPLE, OF
COURSE CERTAINLY IN ISRAEL,
PALESTINIANS ARE TREATED
DIFFERENTLY FROM OTHER PEOPLE.
SO WE HAVE ACQUIRED THE
STIGMA OF A SEPARATE PEOPLE.
AND THAT FORTIFIES
NATIONALISM, YOU SEE?
AND FEELINGS OF PALESTINIAN
NATIONAL IDENTITY,
AND THE STRUGGLE FOR
SELF-DETERMINATION
COMES OUT OF THAT.

Bob says OF COURSE, OVER ALL THOSE
YEARS OF EXILE, THE JEWS
DEVELOPED BOTH COSMOPOLITAN
SELF-KNOWLEDGE, COSMOPOLITAN
ABILITY, AND RUNNING PARALLEL
TO IT, A NATIONALISM.
HAS SOMETHING LIKE THAT HAPPENED
TO THE PALESTINES, TOO?

Edward says ONLY JUST.
DON'T FORGET WE ARE
TALKING ABOUT 35-40 YEARS.

Bob says COMPARED TO 2000.

Edward says YEAH.
AND ANOTHER THING IS THAT THE
PALESTINIANS ARE, FOR THE
MOST PART RIGHT NOW,
VERY HEAVILY INVOLVED
IN THE ARAB WORLD.
I MEAN, THEY ARE PART
OF AN ARAB SETTING.
BUT THE INTERESTING
PHENOMENON, I THINK, REALLY
BEGINS IN THE '80s, OR '82,
PROBABLY THE SIEGE OF BEIRUT,
AND WHAT HAPPENED TO THE
PALESTINIANS AS A RESULT OF
THAT IN THE SUMMER OF '82, IS
THAT FOR THE FIRST TIME IT'S
BECOME CLEAR THERE IS A
DISCREPANCY BETWEEN THE ARABS
SAYING PALESTINE IS OUR
CAUSE, AND ALL THE REST OF
IT, AND DOING NOTHING WHEN
THE PALESTINIANS WERE BEING
MASSACRED -- SABRA AND SHATILA
AND THE SIEGE OF BEIRUT.
AND WHAT IS NOW DAWNING,
I THINK, IN PALESTINIAN
CONSCIOUSNESS, IS
SOMETHING THAT TRANSCENDS
THE ARAB ENVIRONMENT.
WHETHER THAT WILL TRANSLATE
ITSELF INTO COSMOPOLITANISM,
OR WILL DISAPPEAR, I DON'T
KNOW, IT'S HARD TO TELL.
THAT'S WHERE WE
ARE RIGHT NOW.
I MEAN, I'M HOPING, I
WOULD LIKE TO THINK WE ARE
DEVELOPING OUTSIDE, IN A
SENSE, OF THE ARAB WORLD
AND THE RESTRICTIONS OF
THAT ENVIRONMENT.
I'M HOPING WE WILL BE ABLE
TO DEVELOP A WORLD VIEW THAT
WILL GIVE TO THE WORLD
WHAT, AT ITS BEST, JEWISH,
THE JEWISH SORT OF
TRANSNATIONAL IDENTITY DID.
BUT IT'S TOO EARLY
TO SAY AT THIS POINT.
BUT WE'RE AT THE
CROSSROADS, I THINK.

Bob says DO YOU FIND YOURSELF, AS
YOU ARE DEALING WITH YOUR
STUDENTS AT COLUMBIA
UNIVERSITY, DO YOU FIND
YOURSELF PARTICULARLY
INTERESTED IN THE STORIES
OF EXILE THAT THEY BRING?
SOME OF THEM, PRESUMABLY, ARE
NEW YORKERS, OR PEOPLE FROM
AROUND HERE, OR AMERICANS WHO
HAVE NEVER KNOWN ANYTHING
ABOUT EXILE, BUT SOME OF THEM,
ALSO, MUST BE PEOPLE WHO HAVE
BEEN DISPLACED.

Edward says SURE.
OF COURSE, I FEEL AN IMMEDIATE
BOND, INTERESTINGLY, I FEEL
AN IMMEDIATE BOND WITH JEWS.
WELL, FOR OBVIOUS REASONS,
BUT ALSO BECAUSE OF A
SIMILARITY OF BACKGROUND.
I MEAN, THEY UNDERSTAND
INSTINCTIVELY, SOME OF THEM,
WHOSE PARENTS OR GRANDPARENTS
WENT THROUGH A SIMILAR KIND
OF THING.
ARMENIANS.
YOU KNOW, INDIANS, WHO ARE HERE,
OR PAKISTANIS WHO ARE HERE.
OF COURSE.
YOU PICK EACH OTHER
OUT, AND YOU KNOW.
AT THE SAME TIME, YOU FEEL
ALSO THE SAME KINDS OF
TENSIONS BETWEEN THE
GROUP AND THE OUTSIDER.
I MEAN, EXILES AMONGST
THEMSELVES ARE VERY JEALOUS
OF OTHER PEOPLE.
AND THEY ARE JEALOUS OF
RETAINING THEIR IDENTITY IN
SUCH A WAY THAT ANY STRAYING
FROM THE PATH IS ATTACKED.
SO UNLESS YOU TOW THE
LINE IN AN EXILE GROUP,
YOU'RE IMMEDIATELY SAT
UPON VERY HARSHLY.
SO ALL OF THESE THINGS CREATE
VERY STRANGE BONDS THAT ARE
MUCH MORE, TO ME, INTERESTING,
THAN THE RELATIONSHIP SAY,
BETWEEN STUDENT AND TEACHER,
WHICH IS A ROUTINE THING.

Bob says BECAUSE THEY HAVE SPECIAL
INTENSITIES ABOUT THEM.

Edward says YEAH, AND THEY LOOK AT
THINGS IN A SPECIAL WAY.
I MEAN, FOR EXAMPLE, I
TEACH NATIONAL LITERATURE,
LIKE ENGLISH, FOR
EXAMPLE, OR FRENCH.
WELL, I MEAN, IF YOU'RE AN
EXILE, THE IDEA OF A NATIONAL
LITERATURE BECOMES A
QUITE DIFFERENT THING.
IT'S NOT LIKE BEING AT HOME.
IT'S ALWAYS BEING ON THE
PERIPHERY IN SOME WAY AND
LOOKING -- SO WHAT INTERESTS
YOU IS THE PERVERSE, THE
ECCENTRIC, THE UNUSUAL,
THE EXCEPTIONAL.
RATHER THAN, I MEAN THE WHOLE
NOTION OF A CANON OF WHAT IS
“ENGLISH LITERATURE,”
CAPITAL E, CAPITAL L, IS
TOTALLY UNINTERESTING TO ME.
I CAN'T -- BECAUSE IT'S
DESIGNED TO KEEP ME OUT.
SO I'M INTERESTED IN THE
SPORTS, YOU KNOW, THE
ECCENTRICS, THE
MARGINAL, THE OUTCAST.

Bob says WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT EMIGRE
GROUPS BEING JEALOUS AND SORT
OF TURNED IN AND EXCLUSIVE, IT
SOUNDS LIKE THERE'S A PATTERN
WHICH GOES THROUGH DECADE
AFTER DECADE AND COUNTRY
AFTER COUNTRY.
I MEAN, NABOKOV WROTE ABOUT
THE EMIGRE RUSSIANS IN BERLIN
CAST OUT OF SOVIET
UNION AFTER 1917.
HE WROTE OF A PARTICULAR
KIND OF THING WHICH I SEE
REPRODUCED IN TORONTO
IN EMIGRE GROUPS.

Edward says IT WILL ALWAYS GO ON.
IT WILL ALWAYS GO ON.
OF COURSE, IT TAKES DIFFERENT
FORMS IN DIFFERENT PERIODS.
FOR EXAMPLE, NOW, FOR A
PALESTINIAN GROUP IN AMERICA,
EVERY AMERICAN IS POTENTIALLY
A MEMBER OF THE CIA,
FOR EXAMPLE.
I MEAN, THAT'S THE COMMON OR
THE CURRENT -- I MEAN, I'M
EXAGGERATING, OBVIOUSLY, IT'S
SLIGHTLY ABSURD TO SAY, BUT
THE OUTSIDER IS COMMONLY
LOOKED AT WITH HOSTILITY.
I MEAN, HE'S AN OUTSIDER.
AND IN A SENSE HE BEARS THE
BLAME, OR SHARES PART OF THE
BLAME FOR MY FATE.
SO THAT THE FIRST THING YOU
WANT TO DO IS IDENTIFY WITH
OTHERS IN YOUR POSITION, AND
ME AND MY FRIEND AND COUSIN
AND SO FORTH AGAINST THE WHOLE
WORLD, AND THE ABSURDITY OF --
THERE'S A KIND OF PARANOIA
WHICH IS UNIQUELY HELD ONTO.
IT'S AS IF THAT'S AS
IMPORTANT AS A HOMELAND,
IN A FUNNY SORT OF WAY.
AND IT JUST GOES
ON AND ON AND ON.

(music plays)

Now Naomi reappears in the television studio and says
EDWARD SAID IS PAR PROFESSOR
OF ENGLISH AND COMPARATIVE
LITERATURE AT
COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY.
HE SPOKE TO ROBERT
FULFORD IN NEW YORK CITY.
I'M NAOMI LOEB.
GOOD NIGHT.

Theme music plays as the end credits roll.

Producer and Director, Moira Dexter.

Executive Producer, Stephen Patrick.

A Production of TVOntario. Copyright 1985, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Romanticized Exile