Transcript: Ageism in the Workplace | May 23, 2017

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, pink shirt, and purple tie.

A caption on screen reads "Ageism in the workplace? @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says WITH THE MEDIAN AGE IN
CANADA NOW HOVERING AROUND
41 YEARS OLD, IT'S NOT
SURPRISING THAT THE COUNTRY'S
WORKFORCE IS AGING TOO,
PARTICULARLY WITH BABY BOOMERS
GLIDING INTO THEIR GOLDEN YEARS.
THAT'S GOOD FOR SOME PEOPLE, BUT
A REAL CHALLENGE FOR OTHERS, AND
NOT ALWAYS IN WAYS YOU MIGHT
EXPECT.
JOINING US NOW TO EXAMINE HOW
WORKERS AND EMPLOYERS ARE
HANDLING AGING AT WORK:
LISA TAYLOR, PRESIDENT OF
CHALLENGE FACTORY, WHICH DEALS
WITH THE 50-PLUS WORKFORCE AND
CAREER TRANSITIONS...

Lisa is in her mid-forties, with long wavy blond hair. She's wearing a gray blazer over a flowery blue blouse.

Steve continues STEPHANIE MacKENDRICK, A CAREER
COACH AND CONSULTANT...

Stephanie is in her late fifties, with wavy blond hair and bangs. She's wearing glasses, a black cardigan, and a colourful silk scarf.

Steve continues AND DAVID BAKER, LAWYER AND
PRINCIPAL AT BAKERLAW IN TORONTO.

David is in his fifties, clean-shaven, with short white hair. He's wearing glasses, a beige suit, and a cream shirt.

Steve continues IT'S GOOD TO WELCOME YOU THREE
HERE TO TVO TONIGHT FOR A TOPIC
THAT IS VERY TIMELY, OBVIOUSLY.
LET'S READ THIS FROM THE GLOBE
AND MAIL TO GET US STARTED, SHALL WE?

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Trending older." The quote reads "Unprecedented numbers of older workers are staying in the workplace for longer than ever before. In the past decade, the number of Canadian workers over 55 has surged 67 percent, to more than 3.7 million. The labour force participation rate (the number of people either working or seeking to work as a percentage of the population) for people over 65 has nearly doubled, to almost 14 percent, while participation in the 60-to-64 group has jumped 10 percentage points, to nearly 55 percent."
Quoted from David Parkinson, Janet McFarland and Barrie McKenna. The Globe and Mail. January 5, 2017.

Steve says THIS ALL SUGGESTS,
LISA, TO YOU FIRST, THAT THIS
NOTION OF MANDATORY RETIREMENT
AT AGE 65 IS KIND OF A QUAINT
OLD NOTION.
SO LET'S START WITH THIS: HOW
HAVE EMPLOYERS ADJUSTED TO THIS
NEW REALITY?

The caption changes to "Lisa Tayor. Challenge Factory."
Then, it changes again to "The older worker."

Lisa says I THINK THAT
EMPLOYERS ARE SLOW TO ADJUSTING
TO THE NEW REALITY.
I THINK FROM A POLICY
PERSPECTIVE, CAREER PATHS,
LOOKING AT TRAINING PLANS, EVEN
THE LANGUAGE WE USE ABOUT THE
OLDER WORKER AND THE AGING WORK
FORCE IS OUT OF DATE AND
REINFORCES THAT THERE'S THIS
GOAL POST THAT EVERYONE IS
WORKING TOWARDS AT AGE 65.

Steve says GET SPECIFIC ABOUT
THAT THEN.
IF WE WERE TALKING ABOUT OLDER
WORKERS TODAY, WHAT ARE WE
TALKING ABOUT?
WHAT AGE?

Lisa says WHEN THE RETIREMENT AGE WAS
SET AT 35, IT WAS THE '30s AND
LIFE EXPECTANCY WAS ONLY 62.
THE RETIREMENT POLICIES WHEN
THEY WERE ORIGINALLY BROUGHT IN
WERE REALLY POLICIES FOR THE
AGED.
SO MY QUESTION BACK WOULD YOU:
WHY ARE WE PUTTING WORKPLACE
POLICIES FOR THE AGED FOR A
POPULATION THAT IS NOWHERE NEAR
BEING AGED YET.

Steve says OBVIOUSLY YOU'RE
SUGGESTING WE OUGHT TO FORGET
ABOUT RETIRING AT 65, YOU KNOW,
BY REQUIREMENT, AND SHOULD START
TO THINK ABOUT WORKING FOR HOW
LONG?

Lisa says WELL, THERE'S SOME REALLY
INTERESTING POLICY THAT'S COMING
OUT OF THE U.S.
SOME ECONOMISTS THERE HAVE SAID
INSTEAD OF LOOKING AT BIRTH
FORWARD TO SET A DATE OF WHEN
YOU'RE NO LONGER GOING TO BE
USEFUL IN THE WORK FORCE, LET'S
LOOK AT DEATH BACKWARDS.
LET'S HAVE EVERYONE AGE IN THEIR
OWN WAY.
I'M AGING.
MY 14-YEAR-OLD IS AGING.
EVERYONE IS AGING.
LET'S AGE AND PUT POLICIES IN
PLACE TO HELP PEOPLE WHEN THEY
ACTUALLY NEED TO START THE TRUE
DICTIONARY DEFINITION OF THE
WORD TO RETIRE TO WITHDRAW TO
CONCLUDE.
THAT'S WHAT THE WORD MEANS.
IT DOESN'T MEAN HAVING A 30-YEAR
VACATION.

Steve says SO IF WE'RE GOING
TO... THAT'S AN INTERESTING WAY
TO PUT IT.
IF WE'RE GOING TO PUT POLICIES
IN PLACE, LET'S START FROM THE
ASSUMPTION THAT ON AVERAGE
PEOPLE ARE GOING TO LIVE 80 PLUS
YEARS AND WORK BACKWARDS FROM
THERE.

Lisa says CORRECT.

Steve says GOT IT.
DAVID, LET ME GET YOU INTO THE
CONVERSATION NOW BECAUSE YOU
REPRESENT A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE
SO-CALLED BLUE COLLAR TRADES AND
SOME WHO AREN'T SO BLUE COLLAR,
LIKE PILOTS AS WELL, THE COLLARS
ARE NOT BLUE, AND THAT'S A
PRETTY IMPORTANT JOB.
AND IT USED TO BE A JOB WHERE
THEY TOLD YOU AT 65, YOU'VE GOT
TO STOP WORKING.
WHAT'S THE NEW REALITY FOR THEM?

The caption changes to "David Baker. Bakerlaw."

David says WELL, AS WE'VE
JUST HEARD, THE REALITY IS
CERTAINLY CHANGING.
IN TERMS OF BLUE COLLAR, I THINK
THE ISSUE, THE BIG ISSUE FROM MY
PERSPECTIVE IS THAT SENIORITY
THAT WAS AVAILABLE THROUGH AND
UNDER COLLECTIVE AGREEMENTS TO
PROTECT OLDER WORKERS, TO EXTEND
THE LIVES OF OLDER WORKERS, IS
DISAPPEARING AS UNIONIZATION IS
SUFFERING SETBACKS IN THE
PRIVATE SECTOR, AND IT'S LESS OF
AN ISSUE IN TERMS OF PUBLIC
SECTOR WHERE MOST JOBS ARE NOT
THAT TYPE OF JOB, ALTHOUGH
NURSING AND SO ON, THESE ARE
REAL ISSUES FOR PEOPLE IN THOSE
AREAS.
PILOTS WERE MANDATORILY RETIRED
AT AGE 60 UNTIL VERY, VERY
RECENTLY, PILOTS HAD TO GO
OVERSEAS TO FIND EMPLOYMENT
AFTER AGE 60, EVEN THOUGH THEY
WERE PERFECTLY CAPABLE OF FLYING
AND THEY WERE IN HIGH DEMAND
WITH OTHER AIRLINES.

Steve says LET'S CONFIRM THAT.
WHAT KIND OF DIMINUTION OF
SKILLS FOR A PILOT IS THERE ONCE
HE OR SHE HAS REACHED 60 YEARS
OF AGE?

David says ABSOLUTELY NONE.
I MEAN, THE GREATEST PILOTS IN
HISTORY, SULLY SULLENBERGER PUT
DOWN IN THE HUDSON AS HE WOULD
HAVE BEEN PUT OUT TO PASTURE
UNDER THE MANDATORY CANADIAN
RETIREMENT RULES.
THAT'S NOT AN ISSUE WITH THE
HEALTH ADVANCES THAT WE HAVE AND
THE ASSESSMENTS THAT PILOTS GO
THROUGH, AGE REALLY ISN'T THE
DETERMINING FACTOR AT ALL.

Steve says LET'S COMPARE THEN,
STEPHANIE, WHAT OLDER WORKERS
WANT OUT OF A JOB AND WHAT
YOUNGER WORKERS WANT OUT OF A
JOB.
SIMILARITIES?
DIFFERENCES?
WHAT DO YOU SEE?

The caption changes to "Stephanie MacKendrick. MacKendrick and Associates International."

Stephanie says I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF
SIMILARITIES.
I THINK AS PEOPLE AGE, THEY'VE
HAD THE CHANCE TO HAVE DIFFERENT
EXPERIENCES, THEY'VE DEVELOPED
THEIR CAREERS, THEY HAVE SOME
PERSPECTIVES AND I THINK THEY
PROBABLY HAVE A BETTER SENSE OF
JUDGMENT AND A DIFFERENT WAY OF
LOOKING AT THINGS.
BUT I THINK PEOPLE WANT
MEANINGFUL WORK, AND I THINK
THAT PEOPLE WANT TO CONTINUE
MAKING A CONTRIBUTION LONG PAST
WHEN WE THINK OF, AS LISA SAID,
YOU KNOW, THE POLICIES WERE PUT
IN PLACE BECAUSE YOU WERE
SUPPOSED TO BE DEAD BY THE TIME
YOU GOT A PENSION.
BUT PEOPLE WANT TO DO THINGS.
THEY MAY NOT WANT TO DO IT
EXACTLY THE SAME WAY AS A
YOUNGER PERSON, BUT THERE'S A
HUGE GAP IN BETWEEN WHAT PEOPLE
WANT TO DO WHEN THEY'VE HAD
EXPERIENCE AND WHEN THEY ARE AT
THAT AGE, WHICH IS CLOSE TO WHAT
WE USED TO THINK OF AS
RETIREMENT.
YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ARE WORKING,
DEPENDING ON THEIR SITUATION,
INTO THEIR 70s, INTO THEIR
80s.
WELL, HAZEL MCCALLION BOTH PLAYS
HOCKEY.

Steve says I'M NOT SURE HOW
MUCH HOCKEY HAZEL IS PLAYING
ANYMORE.
BUT SHE WAS MAYOR UNTIL 93.

Stephanie says MAYOR UNTIL 93.
PLAYED HOCKEY WELL INTO HER
LIFE.
AND CERTAINLY NOT TYPICAL.
AND I THINK IT'S A RARE PERSON
WHO HAS GOT THE CAPACITY
PHYSICALLY TO RUN A LARGE
MUNICIPALITY WELL INTO THEIR
90s.
BUT IT'S NOT AS RARE AS I THINK
PEOPLE THINK IT IS.

Steve says NO, FAIR ENOUGH.
I WANT TO PICK UP ON ONE
EXPRESSION YOU USED IN THE
MIDDLE OF THAT ANSWER WHICH IS,
PEOPLE WANT TO CONTINUE TO HAVE
MEANINGFUL WORK INTO THEIR
60s, AND 70s, AND WHO KNOWS
EVEN FOR SOME IN THEIR 80s,
BUT WITH MINOR ADJUSTMENTS.
WHAT DOES THAT ENTAIL?

Stephanie says I THINK IT DEPENDS ON THE
KIND OF WORK IT IS AND I THINK
THAT WHEN YOU HAVE... WHEN
YOU'RE OLDER AND YOU'VE DONE ALL
SORTS OF THINGS IN YOUR CAREER,
IT'S VERY DISHEARTENING, FOR
INSTANCE, TO THINK, WELL, IF I'M
NOT GOING TO BE IN MY CORPORATE
ROLE, WHERE WOULD I GO?
YOU DON'T WANT TO GO BACK TO
WHEN YOU WERE A STUDENT AND WORK
IN RETAIL.
CONSULTING IS A KIND OF FIELD
WHERE I THINK THE LARGER FIRMS
ARE MORE PREVALENT.
IT'S HARDER TO BE AN INDEPENDENT
CONSULTANT...

Steve says I GUESS WHAT I'M
WONDERING IS, IF YOU'VE WORKED
THE SORT OF CLASSIC, 60, 70, 80
HOUR WEEKS AS A HIGH POWERED
EXECUTIVE, SIX DAYS A WEEK,
SEVEN DAYS A WEEK IN SOME CASES,
AND NOW YOU'RE 70 AND YOU WANT
TO SORT OF SLOW DOWN A LITTLE
BIT BUT KEEP CONTRIBUTING, ARE
EMPLOYERS SAVVY ENOUGH TO BE
ABLE TO KIND OF PUT SOMETHING
TOGETHER WHEREBY MAYBE YOU WORK
THREE DAYS A WEEK AND STILL
CONTRIBUTE?

The caption changes to "Stephanie MackKendrick, @SMacKendrick."

Stephanie says I THINK THEY HAVE A LOT OF
WORK TO DO.
I THINK YOU MENTIONED SOMETHING
VERY IMPORTANT WHICH IS AN
EXPECTATION THAT PEOPLE SHOULD,
AS A NORMAL COURSE OF EVENTS,
WORK 60, 70, 80-HOUR WEEKS HAS
ALL SORTS OF INHERENT FLAWS IN
IT.
I WOULDN'T HOLD THAT UP AS AN
EXAMPLE THAT YOU WANT TO WORK
TOWARDS.
I THINK THAT IT TENDS TO BE ALL
OR NOTHING, AND SO EITHER YOU
GET INTO THIS KIND OF PARADIGM
WHERE YOU JUST PUT EVERYTHING
ELSE ON HOLD, YOU DON'T HAVE ANY
PHYSICAL NEEDS, YOU DON'T HAVE
ANY SOCIAL NEEDS, EMOTIONAL
NEEDS, YOU JUST GO FLAT OUT.
AND I THINK NOT ONLY WOULD
SENIOR WORKERS BENEFIT QUITE A
BIT, BUT IF THERE WAS A MORE
FLEXIBLE APPROACH WHERE YOU CAN
DO MEANINGFUL WORK ON A
PART-TIME OR SKILL BACKED BASIS
WITH SOME FLEXIBILITY AND IT
DOESN'T MEAN YOU COME IN
WHATEVER YOU FEEL LIKE YOU WANT
TO SHOW UP.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: @theagenda, TVO.org, Facebook, YouTube, Periscope, Instagram."

Steve says LET ME PUT THAT TO
LISA.
DO YOU SEE EMPLOYERS
DEMONSTRATING SORT OF FLEXIBLE
OR SAVVY ENOUGH POSSIBILITIES OF
CHANGING IN ORDER TO ACCOMMODATE
THIS NEW REALITY?

The caption changes to "Lisa Taylor, @ChangePaths."

Lisa says I THINK THAT WE
ARE STARTING TO SEE SOME IN ALL
KINDS OF WAYS.
SO FOR SOME, IT'S BECAUSE
THEY'RE RECOGNIZING THAT 20
EXTRA YEARS OF PRODUCTIVITY IS A
GOOD COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE AND
IF EVERYONE IS GOING TO LEAVE
AND GO AND WORK SOMEWHERE ELSE,
WHY NOT RETAIN THAT KNOWLEDGE
AND HAVE ACCESS TO THAT
KNOWLEDGE?
SO WHETHER THAT'S THROUGH DIRECT
EMPLOYMENT EXTENSION OR WHETHER
THAT'S THROUGH NEW EMERGING
PROGRAMS LIKE ALUMNI PROGRAMS
WHERE WE'RE KEEPING IN TOUCH
WITH OUR ALUMNI AS THEY MOVE ON
AND DO A PORTFOLIO OF NEW
ACTIVITIES IN THEIR LATER YEARS,
THERE'S ALL KINDS OF NEW MODELS
THAT ARE EMERGING.
THERE ARE NEW COMPANIES THAT ARE
EMERGING AS WELL.
SO NEW PLATFORMS ARE COMING INTO
THE MARKET TO RECOGNIZE THAT
THERE'S AN ENTIRE POPULATION OF
PEOPLE THAT DON'T NECESSARILY
WANT TO OR CAN'T CONTINUE DOING
WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN DOING, BUT
DON'T WANT TO DO NOTHING.
AND SO THE PLATFORMS ARE BEING
THE MATCH-MAKERS BETWEEN THE
EMPLOYERS THAT ARE LOOKING FOR
TALENT AND THE TALENT THAT'S
SEEKING A WAY TO BE ABLE TO
CONTINUE TO USE THEIR SKILLS.

Steve says YOU JUST USED AN
EXPRESSION I HAVEN'T HEARD
BEFORE, ALUMNI WORKERS?
I THOUGHT THAT WAS SOMETHING YOU
USED WHEN SOMEBODY GRADUATES
FROM POST SECONDLY.

Lisa says REALLY INTERESTING, RIGHT?
SO THE POSTSECONDARY
INSTITUTIONS KNOW THAT ONCE
SOMEONE HAS SPENT TIME WITHIN
THEIR BRAND, THEY'RE ACTUALLY
THE LARGEST BRAND ADVOCATES, THE
LARGEST DONORS, THEY'RE GREAT
FOR RECRUITING NEW STUDENTS.
ALL OF THOSE PRINCIPLES ACTUALLY
CARRY OVER INTO BUSINESS.
ONE OF THE LARGEST CHALLENGES
ORGANIZATIONS HAVE TODAY IS
RECRUITING NEW TALENT.
WHO'S BETTER THAN BEING A
RECRUITER THAN SOMEONE WHO HAS
BEEN A 30-YEAR VETERAN WITHIN
THE ORGANIZATION WHO CAN NOW
HELP IN ALL KINDS OF WAYS.
MAYBE NOT DOING THE FUNCTION OR
SKILL THAT THEY USED TO DO,
BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO
CONTINUE DOING THAT ANYMORE AND
THE COMPANY IS READY FOR SOMEONE
ELSE TO BE DOING THAT WORK, BUT
THEY WOULD LOVE TO BE THE BRAND
ADVOCATE ON CAMPUSES TO FIND
GREAT TALENT.

Steve says DAVID, IN YOUR
EXPERIENCE, ARE YOU SEEING
COMPANIES JUMP ON THIS SORT OF
ALUMNI-BRAND AMBASSADOR ROLE?

The caption changes to "David Baker, @BakerLaw_TO."

David says I THINK THAT'S
NOT THE NORM BY ANY MEANS AT ALL.
I MEAN, I THINK WHAT WE'RE
REALLY GOING THROUGH RIGHT NOW
IS A POST MANDATORY RETIREMENT
REALITY WHERE A LOT OF EMPLOYERS
MAKE ASSUMPTIONS AND THEY'VE
DESIGNED THEIR MANAGEMENT
SYSTEMS BASED ON THERE BEING
TURNOVER AT AGE 60, 65, AND THE
REALITY IS THAT THAT'S NOT
NECESSARILY WHEN PEOPLE CHOOSE
TO RETIRE AT ALL BASED ON
CHOICE, IN MANY CASES, AND
NECESSITY IN MANY OTHERS.
AND SO ASSUMPTIONS THAT YOU'RE
GONE AT 65 ARE STILL OUT THERE.
THE MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS ARE STILL
THERE.
THE ASSUMPTIONS OF SUPERVISORS.
THE PLANS FOR RENEWAL AND SO ON.
ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE PREMISED
ON SOMETHING WHICH CHANGED WHEN
MANDATORY RETIREMENT WENT OUT.

Steve says HOW DO YOU SEE IT, STEPHANIE?

Stephanie says WELL, I THINK THAT MANDATORY
RETIREMENT AT AGE 65 OR 60,
WHATEVER THE RULE IS, IS KIND
OF... I WOULDN'T CALL IT THE
LEAST OF THE CONCERNS.
BUT, YOU KNOW, WHAT I'VE SEEN IN
MY PRACTICE AND WORKING WITH
CHALLENGE FACTORY IS THERE'S A
LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE MUCH
YOUNGER THAN 60 OR 65 WHO ARE
HAVING TO REINVENT AND REIMAGINE
THEIR CAREERS.
IT CAN BE VERY DIFFICULT IF THE
PERCEPTION IS, WE DON'T WANT TO
INVEST IN SOMEONE WHO... AND
IT'S A MYTH... BUT WE DON'T WANT
TO INVEST IN SOMEONE WHO IS
GOING TO LEAVE.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE AVERAGE
TENURE, THAT SHOULDN'T BE AN
ISSUE.
AND I THINK THAT IT PUTS A LOT
OF STRESS ON PEOPLE.
IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE GAP, YOU
KNOW, WHEN THE SUPPORTS COME IN,
FUR CHANGING CAREERS IN YOUR
EARLY 50s AND FINDING IT
DIFFICULT AND HAVING TO TAKE
TIME TO FIND SOMETHING NEW OR
DIFFERENT OR ANOTHER POSITION,
OR YOU HAVE TO CHANGE THE TYPE
OF WORK YOU DO, THAT'S A LONG
GAP BETWEEN AGE 52 AND 67, YOU
KNOW, WHEN... SO WHAT HAPPENS
BETWEEN 52 AND 67?
AND THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS
WE'RE TRYING TO HELP WITH IS,
LET'S FIND MEANINGFUL THINGS FOR
PEOPLE TO DO.
THERE'S A SHOCKING AMOUNT OF
TALENT THAT'S LEFT ON THE TABLE,
LYING AROUND, PEOPLE WITH
INCREDIBLE SKILLS, EXPERIENCE,
JUDGMENT, AND THEY'RE JUST ON
THE PERIPHERY HAVING A REALLY
HARD TIME TRYING TO FIND THEIR
WAY IN.

Steve says BECAUSE OF AGEISM?

Stephanie says BECAUSE OF AGEISM AND ALSO
BECAUSE OF THE WAY THAT PEOPLE
ARE SELECTED FOR WORK AND
THERE'S A WHOLE PROCESS AROUND
KEYWORDS AND IT'S MORE
TECHNICAL.
PEOPLE NEED SUPPORT TO FIND NEW
WORK.
AND I THINK THAT THERE ARE A
NUMBER OF FACTORS AT PLAY.
BUT WHAT YOU FIND IS PEOPLE IN
THEIR 50s AND 60s WITH
INCREDIBLE EXPERIENCE, GREAT
INSIGHTS, THEY'VE GOT PEOPLE
SKILLS, THEY'VE GOT MANAGEMENT
SKILLS, THEY'VE GOT GOOD
JUDGMENT AND THEY'RE FINDING IT
HARD TO FIND A ROLE.
AND I THINK COMPANIES PROBABLY
WOULD LIKE TO HAVE THEM, BUT I
DON'T THINK THEY'VE FIGURED OUT,
HOW DO WE FIND THESE PEOPLE AND
HOW DO WE CHANGE THE WAY WE DO
THINGS SO WE CAN TAKE ADVANTAGE
OF THE TALENT?

Steve says DO YOU WANT TO PICK
UP ON THAT?

Lisa says I DO.
I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF MYTHS
OUT THERE THAT DRIVE EMPLOYERS
TO MAKE BAD CHOICES OR ACTUALLY
NOT EVEN HAVE THE INFORMATION
THEY NEED TO KNOW THAT THEY'RE
MAKING A CHOICE.
AND I ALSO THINK THAT THERE ARE
SO MANY ELEMENTS OF THE WORLD OF
WORK THAT ARE CHANGING ALL AT
THE SAME TIME.
DEMOGRAPHICS AND AGING IS ONE
COMPONENT OF WHAT WE'RE SEEING
CHANGE.
BUT WE'RE ALSO SEEING A CHANGE
TO FREELANCE ECONOMY, NEW
EMPLOYMENT STRUCTURES, NEW
REVIEWS OF OLD POLICIES, AND I
THINK AS ALL OF THESE CHANGES
ARE TAKING PLACE AT THE SAME
TIME, SOMETIMES IT CAN GET
CONFUSING AND THINGS GET LEFT BY
THE SIDE.
SO, FOR EXAMPLE, THE AGING WORK
FORCE, WHICH IS, AGAIN, SUCH AN
INTERESTING TERM TO ME...

Steve says YOU DON'T LIKE THE TERM?

Lisa says I WISH THAT WE WILL COME UP
WITH ANOTHER TERM IN THE FUTURE.
BUT I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW,
TAKING A LOOK AT HOW AGING PLAYS
INTO THE LIFE COURSE OF OUR
CAREER TRAJECTORY IS SOMETHING
THAT OFTEN GETS LEFT BY THE
SIDE.
THERE'S A NEW REPORT THAT JUST
CAME OUT TODAY, A REVIEW OF
WORKPLACE PRACTICES IN ONTARIO,
AND, YOU KNOW, IN IT THERE'S ONE
MENTION IN THE ENTIRE KIND OF
SUMMARY OF THE FACT THAT OLDER
WORKERS ARE ALSO EXPERIENCING
DIFFICULTY, BUT NO DISCUSSION OF
THE IMPLICATIONS OF... EVEN
USING TERMS LIKE "WORKING AGE
CANADIANS" AND DEFINING THAT 18
TO 64 OVER AND OVER AND OVER
AGAIN.
WHAT DOES THAT DO FOR THE MIND
SET OF THE EMPLOYER WHO IS
TAKING CUES AND JUST TRYING TO
DO THE RIGHT THING?

Steve says OKAY.
I HAVE YOUR PERMISSION TO DO
THIS.
LET'S STATE THIS UP FRONT,
RIGHT?
BECAUSE YOU DON'T MIND TELLING
PEOPLE HOW OLD YOU ARE?

Lisa says I DON'T MIND.
OF COURSE I DON'T MIND TELLING
PEOPLE HOW OLD I AM.

The caption changes to "Out with the old, in with the new."

Steve says THE REASON I RAISE
THIS IS NOT AN ACADEMIC
DISCUSSION FOR YOU.
YOU'VE BEEN IN THIS POSITION,
RIGHT?
SORT OF?
OH, EXCUSE ME.
STEPHANIE, YOU'VE BEEN IN THIS
POSITION.
STEPHANIE, FORGIVE ME.
I GOT THIS ALL BACKWARD.

Stephanie says I
DON'T MIND THAT AT ALL.
IT'S OKAY.
BUT IT'S NOT NOTHING WHERE YOU
WANT IT TO GO.

Steve says YOU DON'T HAVE TO
TELL ME HOW OLD YOU ARE IF YOU
DON'T WANT BUT STEPHANIE
SOMETIMES DOESN'T MIND FESSING
UP TO THE FACT THAT YOU ARE...

Stephanie says 62.

Steve says AND NEEDED A CAREER
CHANGE AT WHAT TIME?

Stephanie says AT 58.

Steve says AT 58.
AND DID WHAT, THEREFORE?

Stephanie says SO I DECIDED TO REINVENT MY CAREER.
I DID TOY WITH THE IDEA OF
TRYING TO PURSUE THE SAME THING.
I WAS A NOT-FOR-PROFIT LEADER, I
RAN AN ORGANIZATION FOR 16 YEARS
THAT HELPED WOMEN ADVANCE IN
THEIR CAREERS.
SO IT'S VERY HARD AT THAT AGE TO
GET HIRED INTO A FULL-TIME ROLE.
AND IT'S NOT IMPOSSIBLE, BUT
IT'S VERY DIFFICULT.

Steve says JUST FOR THE RECORD.
AT 58 YOU DECIDED I WANT TO DO
SOMETHING ELSE, RIGHT?

Stephanie says THE JOB THAT I HAD WAS
TOTALLY CHANGING.
THE NOT-FOR-PROFIT WORLD HAS
RADICALLY CHANGED, THERE'S BEEN
A SEA CHANGE, SO THE SAME
OPPORTUNITIES AREN'T THERE.
AND THERE ARE OTHER THINGS I
WANTED TO DO.
TAKE UP HOCKEY AGAIN, WHICH I
DID, SINCE I WASN'T TRAVELLING,
SO I COULD ACTUALLY JOIN A TEAM.
BUT I ALSO... THE WORK I DID, IT
WAS CANADIAN WOMEN IN
COMMUNICATIONS... WAS HELPING
WOMEN TO ADVANCE IN THEIR
CAREERS.
AND I WANTED TO CONTINUE THAT
WORK.

Steve says AND YOU WERE THE
CEO, WEREN'T YOU?

Stephanie says YES, I WAS.
AND WE DID SO MUCH WORK THERE
THAT I THINK WAS VALUABLE AND I
THINK NEEDS TO BE CONTINUED IN A
DIFFERENT WAY.
SO THAT I TOOK AS MY MISSION.
AND SO I DO CAREER COACHING AND
I DO CONSULTING FOR COMPANIES
WHO WANT TO DO A BETTER JOB AT
RETAINING AND ADVANCING WOMEN.

Steve says PRESUMABLY YOU
LOOKED OUT AT THE WORK FORCE AND
YOU RAN INTO A SITUATION WHERE
AT 58 PEOPLE ARE NOT NECESSARILY
OPEN TO... RIGHT?
THEY'RE NOT WELCOMING.

Stephanie says NO.

Steve says SO WHAT DID YOU DO
ABOUT IT?

Stephanie says ESPECIALLY AT THAT LEVEL.
SO I HAD TO REINVENT MYSELF.
AND THE THING THAT GETS VERY
TRICKY IS, IF YOU FIND YOURSELF,
YOU KNOW, IN YOUR 50s OR EVEN
IN YOUR 60s, AND WE DIDN'T...
MY HUSBAND RAN HIS OWN BUSINESS.
I DON'T HAVE A PENSION.
HE DOESN'T HAVE A PENSION.
I WANT TO WORK.
AND I STILL FEEL I HAVE A LOT TO
CONTRIBUTE.
BUT YOU HAVE TO FIND SOMETHING
TO DO, AND IT TAKES TIME.
SO A LOT OF PEOPLE, EVEN WHEN
THEY'RE REINVENTING THEIR
CAREERS, THEY HAVE TO BUILD IN
THAT TIME TO SWITCH GEARS AND
PROBABLY THE MOST DIFFICULT
THING IS A SENSE OF IDENTITY AND
CONFIDENCE, KIND OF BEING
UNMOORED IF YOU'VE BEEN USED TO
BEING IN THE HARNESS IS HARD FOR
MOST PEOPLE AND MOST PEOPLE
DON'T EXPECT IT.
AND IT CAN ABSOLUTELY WREAK
HAVOC.
I'VE HAD CLIENTS WHO HAVE
INCREDIBLY GOOD QUALIFICATIONS
WHO SPENT 2 YEARS IN THEIR EARLY
TO MID 50s LOOKING TO
RE-ESTABLISH, TO GET ANOTHER JOB.

Steve says LET ME FOLLOW UP
WITH LISA ON THAT.
BECAUSE AS WORKERS GET OLDER AND
THEY START TO FEEL MARGINALIZED
BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE THAT
SUPERSTAR PLACE IN THE WORKPLACE
THEY USED TO HAVE, WHAT DOES
THAT DO TO THEM?

Lisa says YEAH, SO IT'S
REALLY CHALLENGING, THE WHOLE
IDENTITY ISSUE THAT STEPHANIE
WAS JUST REFERRING TO IS ONE OF
THE MOST SIGNIFICANT CHALLENGES
THAT THEY FACE INTERNALLY.
THE EXTERNAL AGEISM THAT'S
TAKING PLACE IN THE WORKPLACE,
ONLY IT'S KIND OF A
SELF-REINFORCING CIRCLE THAT
THEY HAVE TO DEAL WITH.
BUT IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO
REALIZE THAT YOU ARE, ALL OF A
SUDDEN, A PREVIOUSLY IMPORTANT
PERSON, THAT THE ONLY WAY THAT
YOU CAN INTRODUCE YOURSELF AT
COCKTAIL PARTIES IS IN THE PAST
TENSE, I USED TO BE THE DIRECTOR
OF...
I USED TO BE...
THAT'S NOT A HEALTHY WAY TO BE
ABLE TO LOOK AHEAD, ESPECIALLY,
AS WE'VE BEEN SAYING, IT'S NOT A
SHORT PERIOD OF TIME YOU HAVE,
IT'S LONG ENOUGH TO BE ABLE TO
MAKE A SIGNIFICANT TRANSITION.
SO REALLY THINKING THROUGH
SEPARATING WHAT I DO WITH WHO I
AM IS SOMETHING THAT... IT'S
PARTICULARLY TRICKY AND IT'S
PARTICULARLY TRICKY FOR
CANADIANS.
CANADIANS INTRODUCE THEMSELVES
WITH THEIR JOB TITLE MORE THAN
ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE PLANET.
OTHERS USE WHERE THEY WENT TO
SCHOOL OR WHERE THEY GREW UP OR
WHAT SPORTS TEAM THEY HAVE
ALLEGIANCE TOO.
IT'S UNSETTLING FOR MANY PEOPLE.

Steve says DAVID, HAVING SAID
THAT, LET ME ECHO TO YOU WHAT I
HEAR FROM EMPLOYERS
OCCASIONALLY, WHICH IS, I FAVOUR
YOUNGER PEOPLE OVER OLDER PEOPLE
BECAUSE I CAN TRAIN-MOLD A
YOUNGER PERSON INTO DOING THINGS
THE WAY I WANT THEM DONE, WHICH
I CAN'T DO WITH AN OLDER PERSON
BECAUSE THEY'VE GOT 35 YEARS IN
THE WORK FORCE AND THEY WANT TO
DO IT THEIR WAY AND THEY'RE NOT
INTERESTED IN THE WAY I WANT TO
DO IT.
NOW, YOU HEAR THAT.
IS THAT NOT THE CASE?

David says I THINK THERE
ARE LOTS OF MYTHS, AS WE'VE
HEARD, AND THE EVIDENCE IS
THERE, THERE'S STRONG EVIDENCE,
ONTARIO EVIDENCE, ABOUT EMPLOYER
ATTITUDES THAT ARE BASED ON
STEREOTYPES ABOUT OLDER WORKERS,
ABOUT SKILLS AND TECHNOLOGY AND
WILLINGNESS TO TRAIN AND RENEW
AND SO ON.
I MEAN, THE BIG POINT I WOULD
MAKE IS THAT AN AWFUL LOT OF THE
RENEWAL IS TO BE TAKING PLACE
FOR EMPLOYEES WITH THEIR CURRENT
EMPLOYERS.
THAT'S WHERE I THINK WE'RE
FALLING DOWN HUGELY.
THE ASSUMPTION HAD BEEN THAT YOU
WERE OUT AT AGE 60 OR AGE 65,
AND WE AREN'T GOING TO INVEST IN
YOU.
THAT REALLY IS SOMETHING THAT
NEEDS TO CHANGE, AND CHANGE A
LOT.
IT'S DISCRIMINATORY, IN LEGAL
TERMS, WHAT'S HAPPENING FOR
THOSE WORKERS.

Steve says DO YOU SEE
INTERGENERATIONAL TENSION IN THE
WORKPLACE BETWEEN THE YOUNGER
PEOPLE WHO WANT TO GET THAT FOOT
IN THE DOOR BUT FEEL, RIGHTLY OR
WRONGLY, THAT THE OLDER PERSON
TRYING TO HANG ONTO THAT JOB IS
AN OBSTACLE TO THEM STARTING
THEIR CAREERS?

David says THERE'S AN AWFUL LOT OF THAT
OUT THERE.
THERE ARE SUPERVISORS WHO ARE
YOUNGER, AND THEY SAY, I DON'T
WANT TO SUPERVISE SOMEONE WHO'S
OLDER.
IT WOULD MAKE ME FEEL
UNCOMFORTABLE.
AND MAYBE IT WOULD MAKE THAT
PERSON FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE.
BUT ESSENTIALLY, AGAIN, THOSE
ARE DISCRIMINATORY ATTITUDES
THAT NEED TO BE OVERCOME.
I GUESS MY FIRST JOB, I WAS THE
YOUNGEST PERSON BY A SIGNIFICANT
MARGIN, AND I HAD TO GET USED TO
THE IDEA THAT I WAS SUPERVISING
SOME PEOPLE WHO WERE OLDER THAN
ME, AND THAT'S JUST THE WAY IT
IS.

Steve says HOW DID YOU DO IT THEN?

David says WELL, I DID IT WITH GREAT
DIFFICULTY IN SOME SITUATIONS,
WHERE I WAS CONSIDERED A BIT
BRASH PERHAPS, BUT THE BOTTOM
LINE WAS THAT I WELCOMED THEIR
SKILLS AND RECOGNIZED THAT THEY
HAD ABILITIES THAT I DIDN'T HAVE
AND I NEEDED THOSE ABILITIES.

Steve says I MEAN, WE HAVE TO
BE BLUNT ABOUT THIS.
IT'S A TRICKY BALANCE AT TIMES,
RIGHT?
THERE ARE SOME 60-PLUS-YEAR-OLDS
WHO DON'T WANT SOME 30-YEAR-OLD
WHIPPERSNAPPER TELLING THEM HOW
TO DO THEIR JOB.
AND AS DAVID INDICATES, THERE
ARE 30-YEAR-OLDS WHO FEEL
UNCOMFORTABLE TELLING SOMEONE
TWICE THEIR AGE HOW TO DO IT.
HOW DO YOU NEGOTIATE THAT?

Lisa says THERE ARE ALSO
30-YEAR-OLDS WHO DON'T WANT A
60-YEAR-OLD TELLING THEM HOW TO
DO THEIR JOBS.
I THINK ONE POINT AT HOW IT
LEADS TO COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE
INSTEAD OF CONFLICT IS TO TEASE
OUT WHAT ACTUALLY IS A FUNCTION
OF AGE, WHAT'S A FUNCTION OF
PERSONALITY, WHERE ARE THERE
PERFORMANCE ISSUES THAT NEED TO
GET ADDRESSED AS PERFORMANCE
ISSUES AT ANY AGE AND WHERE ARE
THOSE BEING MASKED BECAUSE
EITHER THE PERSON IS YOUNG OR
THE PERSON IS OLD, AND HOW CAN
WE ACTUALLY FOCUS ON WHAT THE
REAL ISSUE IS, AND THAT IS THAT
THE WORLD OF WORK IS CHANGING,
AND EVEN IN ALL OF THOSE
CHANGES, IT'S INTERESTING, DAVID
MENTIONED HE WAS A YOUNG
SUPERVISOR, I WAS CERTAINLY A
YOUNG SUPERVISOR, I THINK
STEPHANIE IN HER CAREER HAD TO
SUPERVISE PEOPLE OLDER THAN HER.
THIS IS NOT A NEW PHENOMENON.
I THINK WHAT'S NEW IS THE SIZE
OF THE DEMOGRAPHIC.
THE BOOMERS IS A VERY LARGE
GENERATION.
THE MILLENNIALS IS AN EQUALLY
LARGE SIZED GENERATION.
GEN-X IN THE MIDDLE WAS SMALL.
THE ISSUES SEEM TO BE MINIMIZED
BECAUSE THERE WEREN'T AS MANY OF
US.
NOW WE HAVE A LARGE POPULATION
ON BOTH ENDS OF THE SPECTRUM AND
THAT'S WHERE THE CONFLICT IS
COMING FROM.

Steve says IT'S AN INCREASING
PHENOMENON, LOOKING FORWARD.
WE HAVE TOUCHED ON AGEISM AS
WE'VE CONDUCTED OUR DISCUSSION
HERE AND I WANT TO GET A BETTER
SENSE FROM YOU AS TO WHETHER MEN
OR WOMEN... I GUESS MEN AND
WOMEN EXPERIENCE AGEISM IN THE
WORKPLACE DIFFERENTLY.
DO THEY?

Stephanie says I
THINK THEY PROBABLY DO DEPENDING
ON HOW IDENTIFIED THEY ARE WITH
THEIR CAREERS.
I THINK SOMETIMES IN TERMS OF
SOCIETY, THEY'RE HARDER ON MEN
WHO HAVE NO ROLE.
I THINK FOR WOMEN, THEY FACE
SPECIFIC CHALLENGES THAT DON'T
GET ANY BETTER WITH AGE, IF NOT
WORSE.
SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, WHETHER
YOU'RE MALE OR FEMALE, IT'S A
VERY DIFFICULT THING TO BE
WITHOUT WORK OR TRYING TO FIGURE
OUT WHAT THE NEXT THING IS AND
WHO YOU ARE AND HOW YOU CAN
REENTER, AND AS LISA SAID, YOU
KNOW, YOU GO TO A COCKTAIL PARTY
AND YOU'RE THE PERSON WHO USED
TO DO THIS OR THAT, AND FOR SOME
PEOPLE, THAT'S FINE.
OTHER PEOPLE, IT'S DEVASTATING
BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T THOUGHT
BEYOND, YOU KNOW, WHAT THEY ARE
IN RELATION TO THEIR WORK.
SO THE SUPPORTS THAT ARE NEEDED
ARE VERY DIFFERENT.
AND LISA AGAIN HAS SAID THAT THE
WORKPLACE HAS TO CHANGE TO
ACCOMMODATE IT.
I THINK THERE HAS TO BE A LOT
MORE SUPPORT IN TERMS OF HELPING
PEOPLE THROUGH, AND IT'S A LOT
OF THE WORK THAT WE DO IS TO
HELP WITH THE CONFIDENCE AND
GIVE PEOPLE THAT PLATFORM THAT
THEY CAN GO OUT AND REINVENT
THEMSELVES OR TO REALLY DO A
FOCUSED CAMPAIGN TO LAND AGAIN.
BECAUSE PEOPLE SOMETIMES WANT TO
CONTINUE, WHETHER THEY'RE 40,
50, 60.

Steve says LET'S READ THIS FROM
THE NEW YORKER MAGAZINE, WHICH
SPEAKS TO THE DECLINE IN THE
VALUE OF EXPERIENCE.
HERE'S BENJAMIN WALLACE-WELLS WRITING...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "The value of experience." The quote reads "The return to experience is a way to describe what you get in return for aging. It describes the increase in wages that workers normally see throughout their careers. The return to experience tends to be higher for more skilled jobs: a doctor might expect the line between what she earns in her first year and what she earns in her fifties to rise in a satisfyingly steady upward trajectory; a coal miner might find it depressingly flat. But even workers with less education and skills grow more efficient the longer they hold a job, and so paying them more makes sense. Unions, in arguing for pay that rises with seniority, invoke a belief in the return to experience. It comes close to measuring what we might otherwise call wisdom."
Quoted from Benjamin Wallace-Wells. The New Yorker. April 10, 2017.

Steve says OKAY.
DO WE PUT A PREMIUM ON WISDOM IN
THIS WORKPLACE?
WHAT'S YOUR EXPERIENCE ON THIS, LISA?

Lisa says I DON'T THINK
WE NECESSARILY DO.
AND IT DEPENDS REALLY ON THE
SECTOR AND WHAT'S HAPPENING.
AS THE WORLD OF WORK CONTINUES
TO CHANGE SO MUCH, THE NATURE OF
THE JOBS CHANGE.
SO HOW UP TO DATE IS THE PERSON
STAYING IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO
CONTINUE TO APPLY THEIR WISDOM?
THERE'S ALSO AN INTERESTING
DYNAMIC THAT SAYS, BECAUSE
SOMEONE IS OLDER, THEN THEY MUST
BE WISE.
AND THAT COMBINATION ISN'T
NECESSARILY TRUE EITHER.
THERE'S WISDOM THAT CAN COME,
AGAIN, FROM THE WORKPLACE IN ALL
DIFFERENT AGES, SIZES, SPACES,
FROM ALL DIFFERENT PLACES.
AND SO REALLY WHAT WE NEED TO BE
FOCUSING ON IS, AS PEOPLE MOVE
THROUGH THEIR CAREERS AND THEIR
CAREER SEGMENTS, AS WE MOVE FROM
THE FOUNDATIONAL CAREER WHERE WE
START TO MID-CAREER, WHAT COMES
AFTER MID-CAREER BEFORE WE'RE
REALLY READY TO RETIRE?
LET'S FOCUS ON HOW WE CAN TAKE
THE EXPERIENCES WE HAVE AND
APPLY IT TO WHAT'S NEEDED IN THE
WORK FORCE TODAY IN A WAY THAT
DOESN'T NECESSARILY SAY, IF YOU
JUST SPENT 20 YEARS IN A CAREER
AND YOU'RE GOING TO BE LIVING
AND WORKING LONGER, WELL, NOW,
GUESS WHAT?
NOW YOU HAVE TO SPEND 40 YEARS
IN THAT SAME CAREER?
HOW DO WE TRANSITION PEOPLE WITH
PURPOSE THAT IS GOOD FOR THEIR
IDENTITY AND SKILLS BUT ALSO
MEET A NEED EMPLOYERS ARE
LOOKING FOR.

Steve says CAN I ASK YOU ABOUT
THE ADVISABILITY OF
POSTSECONDARY EDUCATION FOR THE
OLDER WORKER?
NO ONE BLANCHES WHEN YOU
CONSIDER SOMEONE IN THEIR HIGH
20s OR 30s GOING ABOUT A
BEING TO COLLEGE OR UNIVERSITY
TO GET RETRAINED OR HAVE THEIR
SKILLS UPGRADED IN SOME
PARTICULAR AREA.
WOULD YOU THINK IT ADVISABLE FOR
SOMEONE IN THEIR LATE 50s OR
60s OR 70s TO GO BACK TO
POSTSECONDARY TO GET SKILLS
UPGRADED OR CHANGED?

The caption changes to "Age friendly."

David says I THINK IT'S A
GREAT IDEA IF PEOPLE HAVE THE
MEANS AND THE OPPORTUNITY.
I'D SAY MY POINT IS THAT
EMPLOYERS HAVE THE
RESPONSIBILITY TO BE OFFERING
TRAINING TO OLDER WORKERS, AND
IF THERE'S ONE AREA OF CLEAR
DISCRIMINATION EXPERIENCED BY
OLDER WORKERS, IT'S THAT THEY'RE
DENIED TRAINING ON THE BASIS OF
ASSUMPTIONS, STEREOTYPES, AS
WE'VE SAID, THAT PEOPLE AREN'T
GOING TO STAY AROUND MUCH
LONGER.

Steve says THEY'LL PAY TO SEND
A KID TO GET HIS OR HER MBA BUT
MAYBE NOT SOMEBODY WHO IS 60?

David says AND THAT'S
BEEN THE CASE IN A NUMBER OF
CASES I'VE BEEN INVOLVED WITH
IT.
THEY NEED THE SAME OPPORTUNITY
AS THE YOUNGER WORKERS TO
MAINTAIN MY SKILLS, MAINTAIN MY
PLACE IN THE WORKPLACE AND HAVE
A FUTURE.

Lisa says IT'S NOT
EXTERNAL POSTSECONDARY TRAINING
OR EDUCATION.
IN OUR ANALYSIS AROUND THE
COUNTRY, ONE OF THE THINGS WE
FOUND IS THERE'S A SIGNIFICANT
DROP-OFF IN COMMITMENT TO
WORKPLACE TRAINING OF CANADIAN
EMPLOYEES, STARTING AT AROUND
AGE 49.
SO 49 IS STILL A VERY FAR WAY
AWAY BEFORE AGE 65, IF WE ARE
GOING TO USE THAT AS A
MILESTONE.
AND EVEN STILL, THE SUBTLE
SIGNALS INSIDE OF ORGANIZATIONS
STILL START TO TELL THE PERSON
THAT YOU KNOW WHAT?
IT'S TIME FOR YOU TO KIND OF
WITHDRAW A BIT.
THAT WE'RE NOT NECESSARILY GOING
TO GIVE YOU THE SAME LEVEL OF
TRAINING AS WE WOULD TO A
YOUNGER EMPLOYEE.
AND THEN WHAT ENDS UP HAPPENING
IS THAT EMPLOYEE STAYS FOR
DECADES IN THE ORGANIZATION AND
THEN 10 YEARS, 12 YEARS LATER,
THERE'S THEN DISCUSSIONS ABOUT,
YOU KNOW, WHY SUE OR WHY BOB'S
SKILLS ARE OUT OF DATE.
WELL, THEY HAVEN'T BEEN TRAINED
IN ALL OF THAT TIME.

Steve says THAT'S SOMETHING
WE'RE SEEING I SUSPECT ACROSS
SECTORS AND ACROSS DEMOGRAPHICS
IN THE CANADIAN WORKPLACE.
THERE'S JUST A LOT LESS ON-SITE
RETRAINING GOING ON NOWADAYS,
COMPARED TO SAY 25 YEARS AGO.

Lisa says THERE IS.

Steve says SHELDON, BOTTOM OF
PAGE 4, THE TORONTO STAR
EDITORIAL BOARD.
LET'S DO THIS EXCERPT HERE...

Another quote appears on screen, under the title "Culture change." The quote reads "Abundant research has also shown that encouraging older workers to stay in the labour market will require significant culture change. The Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives found negative stereotypes about older workers were a significant barrier to their continuing work. Tackling this problem involves changing the mindset of human resources policies so that employers focus on retaining seniors, and even hiring them, rather than pushing them out the door.
For too long there has been a culture of pushing seniors out the door or encouraging them to leave through buyouts to make room for the young."
Quoted from Editorial Board, Toronto Star. May 6, 2017.

Steve says OKAY.
STEPHANIE, THERE IT IS IN BLACK
AND WHITE.
HOW ARE WE GOING TO DO THIS?

Stephanie says WELL, I THINK IT'S A REALLY
DIFFICULT... IT'S A REALLY
DIFFICULT SITUATION, BUT I THINK
THAT YOU NEED TO TRAIN WORKERS
AND I THINK THAT THEY NEED TO
FEEL SUPPORTED AND THEY NEED
TO... THEY NEED TO BE SEEN AS
INDIVIDUALS.

Steve says BUT WE... THE STAR
EDITORIAL IS SAYING YOU NEED TO
CHANGE THE CULTURE AND THE MIND SET.

Stephanie says THERE'S A FORMULA I CAN USE
BY USING AN INTERNET SEARCH OR
SOME SYSTEM WHERE I CAN JUST
PLUCK THE RIGHT QUALIFICATIONS
AND PEOPLE NEED TO BE SEEN FOR
WHO THEY ARE AND ESPECIALLY WHEN
YOU'RE LOOKING AT THINGS LIKE
JUDGMENT AND LEADERSHIP AND THE
THINGS THAT I THINK SOME OF THE
OLDER WORKERS BRING, IT'S HARDER
TO PUT IN A RéSUMé IN KEYWORDS.
YOU NEED TO ACTUALLY SPEAK TO
PEOPLE WHO NEED TO SEE THAT.
SO THERE IS A HUGE CULTURE
CHANGE THAT HAS TO TAKE PLACE.
THEY HAVE TO THINK TOTALLY
DIFFERENTLY ABOUT HOW YOU SEE
AND VALUE WORKERS, AND AGAIN, WE
WERE TALKING ABOUT THE 60, 80,
90, 100-HOUR WEEK.
YOU DON'T WANT TO HAVE A
70-YEAR-OLD PERSON NECESSARILY
SAYING, THAT'S WHAT YOU DO OR
YOU DON'T DO ANYTHING.
BUT YOU COULD SAY THAT YOU COULD
MEANINGFULLY SPEND A COUPLE OF
DAYS A WEEK, AND EACH PERSON IS
GOING TO BE DIFFERENT.
YOU CAN'T JUST CATEGORIZE.
THIS IS THE TRICKY PART.
BECAUSE YOU CAN'T JUST SAY ALL
65-YEAR-OLDS ARE FINE OR NO
70-YEAR-OLDS ARE FINE.

Steve says OKAY.
LET ME JUMP IN HERE BECAUSE,
WITH A FEW MINUTES LEFT HERE, I
DO NEED TO PUT THIS ON THE
TABLE.
THE MILLENNIALS WHO ARE WATCHING
THIS PROGRAM RIGHT NOW ARE
SAYING TO THEMSELVES, ALL YOU
PEOPLE ONLY CARE ABOUT THE
60-PLUS AND MEANWHILE THESE
PEOPLE ARE BLOCKING, I'M SURE
THEY'RE SAYING, THESE PEOPLE ARE
BLOCKING OUR OPPORTUNITIES TO
FINALLY GET INTO THE WORK FORCE
AND INSTEAD... I GOT MY FIRST
FULL-TIME JOB WHEN I WAS 21.
YOU KNOW, IT'S NOTHING TO SEE
MILLENNIALS NOWADAYS IN THEIR
30s STILL LOOKING FOR THAT
FIRST JOB.
DO WE NOT HAVE ANY SYMPATHY FOR
THEM HERE?

Lisa says OF COURSE
THERE'S LOTS OF SYMPATHY AND OF
COURSE THERE NEEDS TO BE
SOLUTIONS FOR YOUTH
UNEMPLOYMENT.
UNFORTUNATELY WHAT OFTEN HAPPENS
IS THE FACT THAT WE'RE GOING
THROUGH A PERIOD OF HIGH YOUTH
UNEMPLOYMENT IS OFTEN CONNECTED
TO THE FACT THAT PEOPLE ARE
STAYING IN THE WORKPLACE LONGER,
AND THOSE THINGS ARE CONNECTED
BUT NOT IN THE WAY THAT YOU
WOULD THINK.
SO A STUDY OF OECD COUNTRIES HAS
ACTUALLY SHOWN THAT IN COUNTRIES
WHERE THERE'S HIGH PARTICIPATION
RATES AMONG OLDER WORKERS, YOUTH
UNEMPLOYMENT DROPS.
AND THE REASON FOR THAT IS
BECAUSE, IF OLDER WORKERS WITH
ALL OF THEIR EXPERIENCES ARE
PROPERLY EMPLOYED TO GO TO THE
QUOTE THAT YOU MENTIONED
EARLIER, THAT LEVERAGES THE
EXPERIENCE THEY HAVE AND THE
WISDOM, THEY WILL PULL WITH THEM
ENTRY LEVEL POSITIONS THAT NEED
TO SUPPORT THE WORK THAT THEY'RE
DOING.

Steve says THAT GOES AGAINST
EVERYTHING WE HEAR.

Lisa says IT DOES INDEED.
AND THAT'S WHERE MYTH BUSTING
BECOMES SUCH AN IMPORTANT PART
OF THIS DISCUSSION.
THAT THE HEADLINE DOESN'T ALWAYS
NECESSARILY GIVE THE FULL STORY.
AND AGEISM IN THE WORKPLACE IS
SUCH A REAL... IT'S SUCH A REAL
ISSUE, NOT JUST FOR THE H.R.
MANAGER, BUT IN OUR OWN MINDS AS
WELL.
I MEAN, EVERY SINGLE DAY THE
SAME EMPLOYEES THAT ARE
COMBATING AGEISM IN THEIR OWN
CAREERS WILL MAKE AGE
DEPRECATING JOKES AMONG THEIR
FRIENDS AND FAMILY.
SO THE CULTURE CHANGE IS REALLY
A SOCIETY-WIDE CULTURE CHANGE
WHERE WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT,
YOU KNOW, WE DON'T MAKE CERTAIN
STATEMENTS ANYMORE AGAINST
SOMEONE'S RACE, AGAINST
SOMEONE'S RELIGION, AGAINST
SOMEONE'S SEXUALITY, AGAINST
SOMEONE'S GENDER IDENTITY, BUT
WE MAKE COMMENTS ABOUT SOMEONE'S
AGE ALL THE TIME AND WE LAUGH.

Steve says IT'S ONE OF THE LAST
BASTIONS OF ACCEPTABLE
DISCRIMINATION AND JOKING IN THE
WORKPLACE.

Lisa says IT IS INDEED.
AND THAT MAKES IT DIFFICULT NOT
JUST FOR THE H.R. MANAGER AND
THE COMPANY, BUT FOR ALL OF US
TO REALIZE, WAIT A MINUTE.
THERE'S DECADES OF PRODUCTIVITY
THAT WE'RE NOT ACCESSING AND
THAT'S A SHAME.

The caption changes to "Producer: Sandra Gionas, @sandragionas."

Steve says WELL, I WANT TO
THANK THE THREE OF YOU FOR
COMING IN TONIGHT AND HELP US
UNDERSTAND THIS WHOLE PHENOMENON
A HECK OF A LOT BETTER.
STEPHANIE MacKENDRICK, LISA
TAYLOR FROM THE CHALLENGE
FACTORY, AND DAVID BAKER FROM
BAKERLAW.
GOOD TO HAVE YOU WITH US ON TVO
TONIGHT.
AND YOU CAN TELL ME HOW OLD YOU
ARE LATER.

[LAUGHTER]

Watch: Ageism in the Workplace