Transcript: The Segregated City | May 15, 2017

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and striped lilac and gray tie.

A caption on screen reads "The segregated city? @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says A HALF CENTURY AGO,
TWO THIRDS OF TORONTO'S
POPULATION WAS CONSIDERED MIDDLE
CLASS.
BY 2005, LESS THAN A THIRD OF
RESIDENTS IN ONTARIO'S CAPITAL
CITY MET THAT MARK.
WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT HOW THE
CITY HAS BEEN GROWING, AND CAN
WE DO BETTER?
JOINING US NOW FOR MORE:
KOFI HOPE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR,
CEE CENTRE FOR YOUNG BLACK PROFESSIONALS...

Kofi is in his mid-thirties, with short curly black hair and a goatee. He's wearing a white shirt and gray coat.

Steve continues MICHELLE GERMAN, SENIOR MANAGER,
POLICY AND PARTNERSHIPS AT
EVERGREEN CITY WORKS...

Michelle is in her thirties, with chin-length wavy blond hair. She's wearing a black sweater over a white dress.

Steve continues AND DAVID HULCHANSKI, PROFESSOR
OF HOUSING AND COMMUNITY
DEVELOPMENT, UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO.

David is in his sixties, clean-shaven, with short white hair. He's wearing glasses, a blue suit, and a gray shirt.

Steve continues IT'S GOOD TO HAVE YOU THREE
AROUND OUR TABLE HERE TONIGHT AT TVO.
I WANT TO START BY POINTING OUT
WHAT RICHARD FLORIDA, THE FAMED
URBANIST HAS TO SAY ABOUT THIS
IN HIS BOOK, "THE NEW URBAN
CRISIS" SKY HIGH HOUSING
POLICIES, RISING INEQUALITY,
DEEPENING SEGREGATION, A
SHRINKING MIDDLE CLASS, AND HE
HAS REFERRED THIS, DAVID, TO THE
CENTRAL CRISIS OF OUR TIME.
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF HIS DIAGNOSIS?

The caption changes to "David Hulchanski. University of Toronto."
Then, it changes again to "Cities in crisis?"

David says I AGREE WITH THAT.
THERE ARE, I THINK, TWO KEY
ISSUES THAT WILL DO US IN IF WE
DON'T DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT:
CLIMATE CHANGE AND INEQUALITY.
NEITHER ARE PROBLEMS OF THE
CITY.
THEY ARE PROBLEMS IN THE CITY,
CREATED BY THE WAY WE GOVERN
OURSELVES AND BY THE WAY WE RUN
OUR SOCIETIES.

Steve says MICHELLE, HE WAS,
FLORIDA, EXTREMELY OPTIMISTIC
WHEN HE FIRST CAME TO CANADA A
DECADE AGO.
MUCH LESS SO NOW.
HOW ABOUT YOU?

The caption changes to "Michelle German. Evergreen Cityworks."

Michelle says I'M STILL
OPTIMISTIC, STEVE.
HE'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, WE HAVE
SOME SERIOUS ISSUES TO DEAL WITH
IN THE CITY AND I THINK AS A
SOCIETY, BUT I ACTUALLY SEE TWO
HUGE OPPORTUNITIES: ONE IS THAT
WE'RE GOING TO SEE A LOT OF
PEOPLE MOVING TO OUR MID-SIZED
CITIES OVER THE NEXT 20 YEARS.
OUR REGION IS LOOKING TO GROW
ABOUT 100,000 PEOPLE PER YEAR
FOR THE NEXT 30 YEARS AND A LOT
OF THOSE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE
SETTLING OUTSIDE OF TORONTO.

Steve says SO A MID-SIZED CITY IS WHAT?

Michelle says A PETERBOROUGH, A LONDON, A
HAMILTON, A SUDBURY.
AND THE OTHER PIECE IS THAT
WE'RE MAKING... OUR GOVERNMENTS
ARE MAKING HUGE INVESTMENTS IN
INFRASTRUCTURE, SOCIAL,
ECONOMIC, AND TRANSIT.
SO IT'S REALLY AN OPPORTUNITY TO
LEVERAGE THOSE DOLLARS, EVERY
DOLLAR, TO GET AS MANY BENEFITS
AS WE CAN AND ADDRESS THE ISSUES
WE'RE FACING.

Steve says KOFI, ARE YOU AS
PESSIMISTIC AS RICHARD FLORIDA
AT THIS POINT?

The caption changes to "Kofi Hope. Cee Centre for Young Black Professionals."

Kofi says I WOULDN'T SAY
PESSIMISTIC BUT WITHOUT DIRECT
ACTION WE'RE ON A COURSE IN
SOCIAL SOLIDARITY.
FOR ME AS A POLITICAL SCIENTIST,
WE CAN TALK ABOUT THE ECONOMIC
TRENDS AND THE SOCIAL TRENDS,
BUT IT'S HOW IT'S PLAYING OUT AT
THE LEVEL OF CULTURE AND THE
DIVISION WITHIN ALL WESTERN
SOCIETIES, BETWEEN INSIDERS,
OUTSIDERS, AND NOW THAT'S
REFLECTED IN THE RISE OF
POPULISM THAT HAS TO HAVE US ALL
WORRIED, BECAUSE TO RESPOND TO
THESE ISSUES WHICH HAVE TAKEN
DECADES TO BUILD, IT'S GOING TO
TAKE DECADES TO FIX THEM, AND
WITH THE WAY THE POLITICAL
LANDSCAPE IS GOING, WE MAY NOT
HAVE ALL THAT MUCH TIME.

Steve says LET'S PICK UP ON THE
WORD TRENDS.
I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO LOOK AT
THE MONITORS IN THE STUDIO.
SHELDON, LET'S BRING THIS UP.
DAVID, I WOULD LIKE YOU TO TAKE
US THROUGH THE NEXT SERIES OF
MAPS WHICH START, AS THIS
GRAPHIC INDICATES, IN 1970.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "Average individual income in Toronto. 1970."

A map shows the distribution of people by income. In blue, the high and very high income is concentrated in the center and north, and in orange and red the low and very low income is concentrated around downtown.

Steve continues WE SEE IN THE BLUE AREAS WHERE
VERY HIGH-INCOME PEOPLE LIVE...

David says THIS WAS
THE CLASSIC POST-WAR INNER CITY
PROBLEMS.
PEOPLE WITH CHOICE, AND THAT'S
THE GROWING MIDDLE CLASS, DID
NOT WANT TO LIVE IN THE INNER CITY.
SO YOU SEE THERE SOUTH OF
DANFORTH AND FLOOR AND A LITTLE
BIT NORTH OF BLOOR IS THE
TRADITIONAL INNER CITY OF POOR
NEIGHBOURHOODS.

Steve says LET'S MAKE THE
OBVIOUS POINT.
THERE'S A LITTLE BLUE, A LITTLE
RED, AND A LOT OF MIDDLE CLASS
YELLOW.
LET'S KEEP MOVING AROUND.
A DECADE LATER.

A similar map shows the distribution in 1980. The red area grows towards the northwest, and blue areas appear in the far east and far west of the city.

David says 1980.

Steve says WHAT'S HAPPENED?

David says A LITTLE MORE RED AND A
LITTLE MORE BLUE.

Steve says LET'S GO ON TO 1990.

A new map shows the distribution in 1990. It is similar, with more middle-income areas between the others.

David says AND MORE OF THE SAME, BUT LET
ME NOW WARN YOU, WHEN YOU JUMP
TO ANOTHER 10 YEARS TO THE YEAR 2000.

Steve says SHELDON, TEN YEARS
LATER, TEN YEARS LATER.
WOW, A CHANGE.

A new map shows the distribution in 2000. The low and very low income areas have grown a lot, and middle-income areas have shrunk.

David says IT IS A
BIT WORSE TODAY IN 2012, OUR
LATEST DATA, 2012.

Steve says AND FLIP IT OVER FOR
THE YEAR 2012 AS WELL.

The 2012 version pops up, showing even more very low income areas.

David says WHAT THIS IS SHOWING IS THE
REDDISH-BROWN COLOUR IS LOW
INCOME OR VERY LOW INCOME
NEIGHBOURHOODS AND VICE VERSA,
YOU SEE VERY LITTLE LIGHT BLUE.
THE HIGH INCOME ARE VERY HIGH
INCOME NEIGHBOURHOODS AND THERE
IS A VERY SMALL MIDDLE THERE.

Steve says VERY SMALL MIDDLE
CLASS AND A LOT MORE LOW AND
VERY LOW CLASS.

David says YEAH.

Steve says OKAY.
I'D LIKE TO KNOW, MICHELLE, IN
YOUR VIEW, TO WHAT EXTENT
ONTARIO'S CAPITAL CITY IS
BECOMING A MORE SEGREGATED CITY?

The caption changes to "A tale of two (or more) cities?"

Michelle says I THINK
THAT IT'S ABSOLUTELY BECOME A
SEGREGATED CITY.
AND WHAT'S INTERESTING IS TO
WATCH US UNDO THAT SEGREGATION.
SO I'M THINKING ABOUT THE
TORONTO COMMUNITY HOUSING,
REGENT PARK, LAWRENCE HEIGHTS,
ALEXANDRA PARK WHO ARE ALL
UNDERGOING REVITALIZATION.

Steve says FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T
KNOW TORONTO, EXPLAIN THOSE
NEIGHBOURHOODS YOU JUST REFERRED TO.

Michelle says THOSE ARE TORONTO COMMUNITY
HOUSING NEIGHBOURHOODS THAT HAVE
IN BUILT FORM BEEN BUILT IN A
WAY THAT IS ACTUALLY SEGREGATED.
THEY HAVE FENCES AROUND THEM.
THEY DON'T HAVE STREETS THAT
CONNECT THEM TO THE MAJOR
ARTERIES OF OUR CITY.

Steve says THIS IS SOCIAL HOUSING?

Michelle says YES, IT'S SOCIAL HOUSING.
IT'S ONE KIND OF INCOME.
THERE ISN'T COMMERCIAL AT GRADE
AND IT'S HARD TO GET IN AND OUT
OF THESE COMMUNITIES.
SO CURRENTLY, TORONTO COMMUNITY
HOUSING, PARTNERING WITH
DEVELOPERS, IS LOOKING TO
REVITALIZE THESE COMMUNITIES AND
BRING IN MIXED INCOME, SO
BUILDING NEW TOWERS AND NEW
HOUSING FOR MIDDLE AND HIGH
INCOME PEOPLE TO MOVE IN, AND
ALSO REARRANGING THE ACTUAL
STREETS.
BUT THE AMOUNT OF WORK IT'S
TAKING TO REBUILD THE PHYSICAL
STRUCTURE AS WELL AS THE SOCIAL
INFRASTRUCTURE AND THE ECONOMIC
INFRASTRUCTURE IS TEACHING US A
LOT ABOUT WHAT WE NEED TO LOOK
AT FOR THE REST OF OUR CITY.

Steve says WHAT ARE YOU SEEING
OUT THERE RIGHT NOW IN TERMS OF
A SEGREGATED CITY?

Kofi says I MEAN, THAT IS THE REALITY.
I THINK WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE
ECONOMISTS, MOST LIVABLE CITY IN
THE WORLD OR ONE OF THE TOP
ONES, THESE STATS, THIS IS THE
DISAGGREGATED DATA.
YOU LOOK NEIGHBOURHOOD BY
NEIGHBOURHOOD, WE HAVE DIFFERENT
EXPERIENCES.
I LIVED IN THE U.K., CAME BACK,
SO EXCITED ABOUT THE CITY, AND
REALLY GETTING DOWN TO WORK IN
THE PRIORITY NEIGHBOURHOODS, IN
THE SO-CALLED INNER SUBURBS.
PEOPLE HAVE A VERY DIFFERENT
IMPRESSION OF TORONTO, THEY HAVE
A VERY DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE WITH
THE POLICE, WITH THE SCHOOL
SYSTEM, WITH SERVICES, WITH THE
FACT THERE AREN'T CRANES, THERE
AREN'T NEW SHINY TOWERS GOING
UP.
SO THE KIND OF DOWNTOWN WORLD
THAT I LIVE IN, AS AN UNDERGRAD
STUDENTS, IS VERY DISCONNECTED
FROM THE REALITIES OF PEOPLE IN
SCARBOROUGH AND NORTH YORK AND
OTHER AREAS.
SO THE NARRATIVE, THEIR
UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT TORONTO
MEANS, WHAT LIFE IS LIKE IN
TORONTO, IS VERY DIFFERENT AND
FOLKS DOWNTOWN, AS WELL-MEANING
AND AS PROGRESSIVE AS THEY ARE,
MANY TIMES DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT
DIFFERENT NARRATIVE, THAT
DIFFERENT LIFE EXPERIENCE.

Steve says I'M GOING TO READ AN
EXCERPT FROM RICHARD FLORIDA'S
NEW BOOK, "THE NEW URBAN CRISIS"...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Dark side of success." The quote reads "The places that are the most productive and offer the highest wages, that have the largest concentrations of high-tech industry and the most talented people, that are the densest and offer the most abundant mass transit options, that are the most diverse, and that are the most liberal in their political leanings nonetheless face the harshest levels of economic inequality and economic segregation."
Quoted from Richard Florida, "The new urban crisis." 2017.

Steve says IT'S ODD THAT AS
TORONTO HAS BECOME, QUOTE,
UNQUOTE, MORE SUCCESSFUL IN SOME
WAYS, IT'S BECOME MORE
SEGREGATED, HASN'T IT?

David says YES.
YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER, THERE ARE
PROBLEMS OF THE CITY THAT WE
RECREATE, BUT THEN THERE'S
PROBLEMS IN THE CITY.
SO A LOT OF WHAT YOU'RE
REFERRING TO THERE IS HAPPENING
IN CANADA, AND WE ARE LARGELY
DOING THIS TO OURSELVES.
THE WORD "GLOBALIZATION" IS
THROWN AROUND A LOT AND THERE
ARE GLOBAL ECONOMIC PRESSURES ON
US, OF COURSE, AND ON OUR
HOUSING STOCK, BUT IT'S STILL
WHAT WE'VE DONE TO OURSELVES IN
THE AREA OF HOUSING, HOUSING
SPENDING, HOUSING SUPPORT FOR
LOW INCOME PEOPLE, DEALING WITH
THE LABOUR MARKET, DEREGULATING
THE LABOUR MARKET AND HAVING
WORKING POOR JOBS, AND NOT
ADDRESSING DISCRIMINATION ENOUGH
IN OUR INCREASINGLY DIVERSE CITY.
FINALLY, CUTBACKS OF COURSE IN
SOCIAL SUPPORTS FOR GROUPS THAT
NEED SOCIAL SUPPORTS.

Steve says TELL US, IF THERE'S
A CONTINUUM HERE, ON ONE END OF
THE CONTINUUM IS, WE'VE DONE
THIS TO OURSELVES, AND THE OTHER
END IS, YOU KNOW, IT SORT OF
FORCES AROUND THE WORLD THAT ARE
BEYOND OUR CONTROL, WHERE IS IT
ON THE CONTINUUM?

David says THERE AREN'T FORCES BEYOND
OUR CONTROL.
WESTERN EUROPEAN AND
SCANDINAVIAN CITIES HAVE MANY OF
THESE ISSUES.
MANY BUT IN A SMALL WAY AND NOT
SO SHARP AND NOT SO DEEP.
SO IT IS WAY MORE SEVERE HERE.
SOMETHING THAT WAS PREDICTED IN
THE '90s WHEN WE BEGAN TO SEE
THIS HAPPENING.
THE STRENGTH OF THE DIVISIONS
AND THE DEPTH OF THE INEQUALITY.
AND THEN YOU TOSS IN INCOME AND
ETHNOCULTURAL, RACIAL ALSO, AND
SOMETIMES COMBINED, AND THAT'S
WHEN YOU BEGIN TALK ABOUT
SEGREGATION OF A BAD TYPE, WHICH
IS DIFFERENT FROM AN ETHNIC
ENCLAVE, RIGHT?
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO
HAVE NO CHOICE.
AND THESE DAYS WE'LL SEE THE
TRENDS INCREASINGLY ACTUALLY
PUSHED OUT OF THE CITY ITSELF.
WE'RE NOT INCREASINGLY LOW
INCOME NEIGHBOURHOODS ANY
LONGER.
WE'RE MAINTAINING THE SMALL
MIDDLE AND WE'RE GROWING THE
HIGH END IN THE CITY OF TORONTO.

Steve says LET ME PICK UP ON
THE NOTION OF SEGREGATION, NOT
BY INCOME BUT BY SKIN COLOUR,
AND KOFI, I WANT YOU TO TALK TO
US ABOUT HOW THE ISSUE OF A
SEGREGATED CITY INTERSECTS WITH
YOUR WORK AT THE CENTRE FOR
YOUNG BLACK PROFESSIONALS?

The caption changes to "Kofi Hope, @kofi_hope."

Kofi says CERTAINLY WE SEE
IT ALL THE TIME AND LIVE THE
REALITY OF THE YOUNG PEOPLE THAT
WE SUPPORT.
I REMEMBER A YOUNG MAN ON JANE
AND FINCH WHEN I WAS DOING A
WORKSHOP THERE AND HE WAS
TALKING ABOUT THE CITY.
HE SAYS WHEN I GO DOWNTOWN, IT'S
LIKE GOING TO ANOTHER PLANET,
IT'S LIKE GOING TO PLUTO.
FOR HIM IT'S NOT PART OF HIS
WORLD.
AND FOR SO MANY PEOPLE, AND WE
TAKE THIS FOR GRANTED BECAUSE
THIS IS HIS CITY, THAT IS HIS
DOWNTOWN, THOSE CULTURAL
INSTITUTIONS THAT WE HAVE, ALL
THE DIFFERENT PIECES SHOULD BE A
PART OF THE FABRIC OF HIS LIFE
BUT HE DOESN'T FEEL CONNECTED.
AND WHEN YOU LIVE IN AN AREA
LIKE MANY OF THESE COMMUNITIES
THAT ARE 80 TO 90 PERCENT
VISIBLE MINORITIES, MAJORITY
BLUE COLLAR FOLKS, PEOPLE DON'T
UNDERSTAND HOW INTIMIDATING OR
KIND OF FEARFUL IT CAN BE TO
STEP INTO THESE MIDDLE CLASS
PREDOMINANTLY WHITE SPACES.
YOU DON'T FEEL THEY'RE MADE FOR
YOU.
WE WERE DOING AN EVENT DOWNTOWN
IN A CORPORATE OFFICE AND WE
WERE INSIDE THE OFFICE.
HE CAME DOWN.
APPARENTLY HE CIRCLED THE
BUILDING FOUR TIMES BEFORE HE
FELT COMFORTABLE... THIS IS
SOMEONE IN THEIR 20s.
IT'S NOT A YOUNG PERSON.
BEFORE HE COULD STEP INTO THAT
BUILDING BECAUSE HE FELT I'M
SAFE HERE, I ACTUALLY BELONG
HERE, I CAN BE HERE.
WHEN PEOPLE LIVE THEIR ENTIRE
LIVES WITH THAT KIND OF
ISOLATION AND THEIR SOCIAL BONDS
OR NETWORKS ARE SIMPLY WITHIN
ONE GEOGRAPHIC AREA OF THE CITY,
IT'S VERY HARD TO INTEGRATE
THOSE FOLKS IN, IT'S HARD TO
MAKE THEM FEEL PART OF ONE
TORONTO AND FOR US TO SOLVE
PROBLEMS TOGETHER AS A CITY.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: @theagenda, TVO.org, Facebook, YouTube, Periscope, Instagram."

Steve says IN WHICH CASE,
MICHELLE, I WANT YOU TO HELP US
UNDERSTAND WHAT THE LONG RANGE
IMPLICATIONS ARE OF A HUGE CHUNK
OF PEOPLE LIVING IN THE CAPITAL
CITY FEELING SEGREGATED OR CUT
OFF FROM MOST OF THE
INSTITUTIONS OF THE CITY.

The caption changes to "The fallout."

Michelle says ABSOLUTELY.
IF THERE'S ONE THING THAT REALLY
STUCK IN MY MIND AFTER THE U.S.
ELECTION IT'S THAT WE DON'T HAVE
TO TAKE TRUMP SERIOUSLY BUT WE
HAVE TO TAKE HIS VOTERS
SERIOUSLY.
PEOPLE ARE STRUGGLING EVERY DAY
TO GET TO WORK, TO GET THE FOOD
THEY NEED ON THEIR TABLES, TO
FIND APPROPRIATE HOUSING FOR
THEIR LIVES, AND I THINK THE
LONG-TERM CONSEQUENCES IS THAT
THESE POPULATIONS AND PEOPLE
GOING TO THESE WORKSHOPS DON'T
FEEL THAT THEY OWN THESE SPACES
OF DECISION-MAKING.
THEY DON'T HAVE TIME.
THEY DON'T HAVE ENERGY LEFT IN
THEIR DAY TO ACTUALLY
PARTICIPATE OR BE CIVICALLY
ENGAGED IN THE DECISION-MAKING,
SO THAT WHEN POLITICIANS COME
OUT WITH A SLOGAN THAT THEY
MIGHT THINK COULD HELP THEM IN
THEIR EVERYDAY LIFE, OF COURSE
THEY'RE GOING TO VOTE FOR THAT
PERSON.
SO I THINK THE CONSEQUENCES ARE
THAT WE'RE ALIENATING PEOPLE
FROM ACTUALLY PARTICIPATING IN
THE DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM, AND PART
OF WHAT WE NEED TO DO WHEN WE
BUILD CITIES IS ENSURE PEOPLE
HAVE THE SPACE AND THE TIME IN
THEIR LIVES TO PARTICIPATE AND
TO MAKE SURE THAT THOSE
ACTIVITIES ARE INCLUSIVE AND ARE
BROUGHT SORT OF TO ALL THE
NEIGHBOURHOODS.

Steve says DO YOU SEE
INCREASING RESENTMENT OUT THERE?

The caption changes to "David Hulchanski, @Hulchanski."

David says OH, YES.
THAT'S WHY I EVEN BRING IN
OBAMA'S FIRST ELECTION BECAUSE
HE TALKED ABOUT CHANGE YOU CAN
BELIEVE IN.
VOTERS ARE LOOKING FOR CHANGE.
THE MAJORITY OF VOTERS ARE
LOOKING FOR CHANGE.
THEY DON'T TRUST WHO'S IN POWER.
AND THEY DON'T HAVE MUCH CHOICE.
AND SO WHOEVER COMES UP WITH THE
RIGHT SLOGANS CAN SOMETIMES DO
VERY WELL, AS ROB FORD DID TO
EVERYONE'S SURPRISE.

Steve says STOP THE GRAVY TRAIN
HAS A LOT OF MILEAGE IN IT.

David says ABSOLUTELY.
WELL, THE BROOM, RIGHT?

Steve says DAVID MILLER'S BROOM.

David says DAVID MILLER'S BROOM, RIGHT.

Kofi says I THINK ABOUT
ROB FORD, THE MAJOR THING FOR ME
IS WHEN HE SAID RESPECT FOR THE
TAXPAYERS.
MANY PEOPLE I KNOW IN MY SOCIAL
CIRCLES DOWNTOWN SAYS WE'RE
DEMOCRATIC CITIZENS.
HOW IS HE REDUCING US TO
CONSUMER RELATIONSHIPS.
BUT FOR FOLKS WHO HAVE THEIR
CHILDREN PULLED OVER ALL THE
TIME, YOUR TEACHER WHO IS NOT
RESPONDING TO YOUR NEEDS AT
SCHOOL, THE TTC BUS THAT COMES
SO LATE AND TAKES OFF WHEN
YOU'RE THERE, IT'S AT THAT LEVEL
WHERE THE RUBBER HITS THE ROAD
WHERE GOVERNMENT INTERACTS WITH
YOUR LIFE, YOU'RE FINDING BAD
SERVICE AND DISRESPECT.
AND SOMEONE WHO SPOKE TO THAT
IDEA OF RESPECT AND YOU NEED A
BETTER EXPERIENCE WITH
GOVERNMENT IN YOUR LIFE, THAT
MEANT SO MUCH.
MANY FOLKS WERE DISCONNECTED
FROM THAT JUST COULDN'T
UNDERSTAND, AND THE RESPONSE AS
OPPOSED TO BUILDING EMPATHY WAS
TO PUT DOWN THE VOTERS OF ROB
FORD, SAYING THEY'RE UNEDUCATED,
THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND, THEY'RE
NOT BRIGHT, THEY'VE BEEN HOODWINKED.

Steve says IT WASN'T THEM WHO
DIDN'T UNDERSTAND, IT WAS THE
REST OF THE PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T
UNDERSTAND WHY THEY WERE LASHING
OUT THAT WAY AND FINDING A
CHAMPION IN ROB FORD FOR THEIR
ISSUES.
WHAT ABOUT FOOD?
DOES IT COME DOWN TO THE LEVEL
OF EVEN FOOD INSECURITY?

Michelle says ABSOLUTELY.
I DID A PROJECT WITH YORK
UNIVERSITY ABOUT 5 YEARS AGO
THAT WAS TWO CITIES THAT PEOPLE
LIVE IN.
ONE LOOKED AT AN OLDER WOMAN WHO
IS IN AN OPERATED WHEELCHAIR AND
IN ORDER TO GET FRESH FOOD THAT
WAS AFFORDABLE AND CULTURALLY
APPROPRIATE, SHE HAD TO GO 2
KILOMETRES UPHILL IN HER SCOOTER
IN THE WIND IN ORDER TO GET
FOOD.
SO WHEN WE'RE THINKING ABOUT
WHAT PEOPLE'S LIVED EXPERIENCES
ARE, IN TERMS OF BEING ABLE TO
FEED THEIR FAMILIES, VERSUS
SOMEBODY WHO LIVES IN PARKDALE
WHERE THERE'S FIVE DIFFERENT
WAYS YOU CAN GET FOOD AND
THEY'RE ALL DIFFERENT KINDS, SO
WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE WAY
WE BUILD DENSITY IN CITIES, ALL
OF THE AMENITIES COME WITH THAT.
SO IT'S ABOUT TRANSIT.
IT'S ABOUT FOOD.
IT'S ABOUT HOUSING.

Steve says I WANT TO READ AN
EXCERPT NOW FROM A DIFFERENT BOOK.
THIS WAS... SOME OF YOU MAY HAVE
SEEN THIS.
BILL BISHOP WROTE A BOOK IN 2008
CALLED "THE BIG SORT: WHY THE
CLUSTERING OF LIKE-MINDED
AMERICA IN THIS CASE IS TEARING US APART.
HERE'S WHAT HE SAID...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Echo chamber neighbourhoods." The quote reads "We now live in a giant feedback loop, hearing our own thoughts about what's right and wrong bounced back to us by the television shows we watch, the newspapers and books we read, the blogs we visit online, the sermons we hear, and the neighbourhoods we live in."
Quoted from Bill Bishop, "The big sort." 2008.

Steve says WE KNOW, DAVID, ALL
ABOUT THE CABLE T.V. ECHO
CHAMBER.
BUT DOES IT EXTEND TO
NEIGHBOURHOODS AS WELL?

David says YES.
THERE IS ONE SENTENCE, I'LL
ACTUALLY READ, I'M SORRY, BUT
RICHARD WILKINSON, "WHAT'S WRONG
WITH INEQUALITY?"
INEQUALITY PROMOTES STRATEGIES
THAT ARE MORE SELF INTERESTED,
ALMOST MORE ANTISOCIAL AND
LIKELY TO GIVE RISE TO HIGHER
LEVELS OF VIOLENCE, POORER
COMMUNITY RELATIONS...

[MIXED VOICES]

David says THAT'S RIGHT.
EVERYBODY IN SOCIETY IS HARMED
BY INEQUALITY.
THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT HERE.
WE'RE ALL HARMED BY IT.
SOME DON'T REALIZE IT, BUT WE
ALL ARE AND THAT IS WHAT IS
HAPPENING TO SOCIETIES AND AN
EXTREME WAY, FRANKLY, I MEAN IN
THE UNITED STATES AND MANY
BEST-DEVELOPED COUNTRIES...
LESS-DEVELOPED COUNTRIES, THAT
IS HAPPENING.
CANADA FALLS IN BETWEEN A SCALE
OF GOOD AND BAD THINGS BETWEEN
WESTERN EUROPE AND SCANDINAVIA
AND THE UNITED STATES, ENGLAND,
AUSTRALIA, AND SO ON.
SO WE'RE... WE CAN DO BETTER.

Steve says WELL, LET'S FIGURE
OUT HOW.
LET'S SPEND SEVERAL MINUTES NOW
THINKING ABOUT THAT BECAUSE IF
WE WANT TO REDUCE INEQUALITY AND
WE WANT TO HAVE CITIES THAT ARE
LESS SEGREGATED AND THEREFORE
BETTER FOR ALL...

David says WE HAVE
ONE OF THE LEAST TAXED NATIONS
ON EARTH.
ONLY THE UNITED STATES DOES
WORSE AND A COUPLE OTHER
COUNTRIES, BUT WE PAY WAY LOWER
TAXES THAN...

Steve says THERE ARE LOTS OF
PEOPLE WHO THINK THAT'S GOOD.

David says ABSOLUTELY.
WELL, AND WE SEE WHAT WE'RE
GETTING FROM IT.
IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE RESOURCES
TO DO IT.
BUT THERE IS THOSE FOUR
CATEGORIES: HOUSING, THE BIGGEST
BUDGET I KNOW FOR EVERYBODY, IS
A MORTGAGE OR RENT PAYMENT.
AND SECOND IS THE LABOUR MARKET,
WHAT YOUR JOB PAYS AND HOW MUCH
MOBILITY IT HAS AND HOW MUCH
SUPPORT IF YOU GET SICK AND ALL
THAT.
AND THE THIRD IS DISCRIMINATION,
BEING SERIOUS ABOUT TACKLING
DISCRIMINATION.
AND THE FOURTH ARE THE VARIOUS
CUTBACKS AND TAX BREAKS THAT
HAVE EITHER HARMED OR HELPED THE
RIGHT OR WRONG PEOPLE IN VARIOUS WAYS.

Steve says LET'S TALK ABOUT NO. 4.
I MEAN, I'VE SEEN THIS SAID
WHERE IF YOU JUST RAISE PROPERTY
TAXES BY 5 percent, YOU RAISE ALL THE
MONEY YOU NEED FOR THE BILLION
DOLLARS YOU WANT TO SPEND ON
REPAIRS TO THE TORONTO COMMUNITY
HOUSING CORPORATION STOCK.
THE PROBLEM IS THAT THERE'S LOTS
OF PEOPLE WHO CAN'T AFFORD...

David says IT'S NOT JUST PROPERTY TAXES.
THIS IS WHERE TOLLS AND ALL
KINDS OF OTHER THINGS ARE
BROUGHT IN.
AVOIDING WHAT?
THE PROGRESSIVE INCOME TAX WE
USED TO HAVE.
THE MARGINAL TAX RATE AT THE TOP
NEEDS TO BE HIGHER.

Steve says THAT'S THE FEDERAL
AND PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT...

David says THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING.
IT'S NOT AN URBAN PROBLEM.
IT'S PLAYED OUT WHERE WE LIVE
AND WE'RE VERY URBANIZED, RIGHT?
BUT IT IS A PROBLEM OF THE WAY
WE ORGANIZE OURSELVES AND THE
WAY WE GOVERN OURSELVES.

Steve says KOFI, ON THIS ISSUE
OF HOUSING AND LABOUR MARKET AND
DISCRIMINATION AND TAX BREAKS
AND-OR OR NOT, DO YOU WANT TO
THROW SOME IDEAS OUT THERE?

Kofi says I THINK ABOUT
PUBLIC SCHOOLS.
YOU ARE PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS ARE
CRITICAL IN TIMES LIKE THESE.
LOOK AT T.D.S.B....

Steve says TORONTO DISTRICT
SCHOOL BOARD.
THIS PROGRAM GOES ALL OVER THE
PROVINCE.

Kofi says SO WHEN YOU LOOK
AT THE TORONTO DISTRICT SCHOOL
BOARD, IF YOU WANT AN EXAMPLE OF
HOW SEGREGATION IS PLAYING OUT
IN THE CITY, THERE ISN'T A
BETTER PLACE.
BECAUSE IF YOU GO TO A SCHOOL...
YOU KNOW, JANE AND FINCH OR
MALVERN, COMPARED TO ROSEDALE OR
FOREST HILLS...

Steve says WHICH ARE LOWER
INCOME NEIGHBOURHOODS...

Kofi says COMPARED TO THOSE IN THE
CENTRE OF THE CITY, THE KIND OF
RICHER, MORE WHITE, MORE MIDDLE,
UPPER CLASS.
YOU SEE HUGE DIFFERENCES.
AND IT'S BEING FUELED.
SCHOOL CHOICE MEANS THAT PARENTS
TAKE THEIR CHILDREN OUT OF
SCHOOLS THAT ARE SEEN TO HAVE
TOO MANY WORKING CLASS KIDS OR,
TO BE FRANK, TOO MANY BLACK
CHILDREN, PUT THEM INTO MORE
LIKE-MINDED SCHOOLS WITH SIMILAR
DEMOGRAPHICS, AND WE'VE SEEN
THAT THOSE ARE THEN THE SCHOOLS
THAT ARE LOOKING TO CLOSE, THOSE
IN OUR PRIORITY NEIGHBOURHOODS.
ALSO WE HAVE THESE SPECIALIZED
HIGH SCHOOLS, WHICH ARE LIKE
PRIVATE SCHOOLS WITHIN THE
SYSTEM.
SO THEY'RE AMAZING, INCREDIBLE
EXPERIENCES.
BUT FOR THE ART SCHOOLS... YOU
KNOW WHAT?
AT 14, YOU NEED TO HAVE A FULL
PORTFOLIO READY.
AND WHO ARE THE FAMILIES THAT
ARE ABLE TO PUT ALL THAT TIME
AND INVESTMENT IN PLACE?
UPPER MIDDLE CLASS FAMILIES.
AND THEN PHYSICALLY THE SCHOOLS
LOOK DIFFERENTLY.
SO MYSELF, I WENT TO SCHOOL IN
MISSISSAUGA, OUTSIDE OF THE
CITY.
I WENT TO A MIXED SCHOOL THAT
HAD FOLKS OF ALL DIFFERENT
RELIGIONS, ALL DIFFERENT
BACKGROUNDS.
THAT EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENCE...
THAT WAS THE ONE TIME IN YOUR
LIFE WHERE YOU'RE MIXED WITH
PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER THE PLACE.
YOU LEARN THAT CULTURAL
AFFINITY, YOU LEARN HOW TO
NEGOTIATE.
YOU BUILD THAT COMMON SENSE OF
IDENTITY.
WHEN OUR SCHOOL SYSTEMS...

David says I'M SORRY.
BUT IN SOME NEIGHBOURHOODS, IT'S
THE OPPOSITE, RIGHT?

Kofi says EXACTLY.
AND THAT'S WHAT THE INCREASING
TREND IS.
AND NOT ONLY THAT, WHAT HAPPENS
IS WHEN PARENTS PULL THEIR KIDS
OUT OF SCHOOLS THAT ARE
STRUGGLING, THEY TAKE THAT
EXPERTISE, THAT ABILITY TO
FUND-RAISE, AND BRING IT TO
SCHOOLS THAT MAYBE DIDN'T NEED
IT, AND THAT PLACE THAT WE LOSE,
AFTER THAT... AFTER YOU GET OUT
OF PUBLIC SCHOOL, THERE'S VERY
FEW CHANCES IN LIFE WHEN YOU'RE
IN SUCH A MIXED ENVIRONMENT.
SO OUR PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS, WE
NEED TO REVITALIZE AND SEE AS
PLACES NOT JUST FOR INDIVIDUAL
ADVANCEMENT BUT FOR BUILDING
SOCIAL SOLIDARITY AND CONNECTION
BETWEEN PEOPLE.

Steve says I WANT TO MAKE SURE
I SAVE TIME FOR MICHELLE TO
SPEAK ABOUT ANY ONE OF THOSE
FOUR THINGS IN THE QUARTET DAVID MENTIONED.

Michelle says I WANT TO
GO BACK TO MY FIRST POINT.
I REALLY BELIEVE AS A PROVINCE
AND AS A COUNTRY WE'RE AT A
TURNING POINT.
SO THINKING ABOUT HOW WE'RE
INVESTING NEW INFRASTRUCTURE
DOLLARS THROUGH ECONOMIC
DEVELOPMENT AND TRANSIT AND
HOUSING AND THINKING ABOUT WHAT
ONTARIO CAN BE.
I THINK THE FIRST THING IS
ACKNOWLEDGING THAT IT'S A
SOCIETAL ISSUE, WHICH ALL THREE
OF US HAVE FLAGGED.
AND IF WE'RE ABLE TO TAKE THOSE
INVESTMENTS AND CHANNEL THEM
THROUGH SOME SHARED PRINCIPLES
FOR CITY-BUILDING, BUILDING
PLACES THAT ARE EQUITABLE, THAT
ARE FAIR, THAT ARE CONNECTED,
AND ENSURING THAT WHEN WE
ACTUALLY ARE BUILDING NEW
TRANSIT LINES, NEW STOPS, WE'RE
LOOKING AT A MAP THAT ACTUALLY
CONNECTS ONE NEIGHBOURHOOD TO
ANOTHER, WE'RE LOOKING AT WHERE
PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO WORK,
WHERE THEY'RE PROJECTED TO WORK
OVER THE NEXT 20 YEARS SO THEY
ACTUALLY HAVE TIME TO HELP THEIR
12-YEAR-OLD BUILD A PORTFOLIO
AND REALLY ACCELERATE IN
WHATEVER FIELD THEY WANT TO BE.
ONE THING THAT EVERGREEN HAS
DONE, WHICH IS A SUPER LIGHT
TOUCH WAY TO GET PEOPLE
INVOLVED.

Steve says TELL PEOPLE WHAT EVERGREEN DOES.

The caption changes to "tvo.org/theagenda."

Michelle says EVERGREEN IS A NATIONAL
NOT-FOR-PROFIT ORGANIZATION
COMMITTED TO HELPING CITIES TO
FLOURISH, AND ONE INITIATIVE
THAT WE HAVE IS CALLED 101 DAYS.
AND ESSENTIALLY WORKING... THIS
YEAR IT WILL BE IN HAMILTON,
LONDON, Montréal, HALIFAX, AND
VANCOUVER.
WE INVITE CITIZENS TO REIMAGINE
THEIR CITY, WHETHER IT'S THEIR
NEIGHBOURHOOD BLOCK, THEIR
SCHOOL, THEIR HOUSE, THEIR
LANEWAY.
IF YOU WERE IN CHARGE, WHAT
WOULD IT LOOK LIKE?
WOULD YOU USE THAT PARKING SPACE
TO BE A LEMONADE STAND?
WOULD YOU USE THAT... WOULD YOU
PUT A STOP SIGN HERE?
WOULD YOU PUT IN BIKE LANES HERE
WITH CHALK?
AND I THINK INVITING PEOPLE TO
BE PART OF THIS INCLUSIVE CITY
AND PART OF THE VISIONING OF IT
IS HOW WE'RE GOING TO ACTUALLY
CONNECT PEOPLE WITH PUBLIC
POLICY, BECAUSE I THINK THAT
WHAT WE'RE ALL SEEING IS A BIG
DISCONNECT OF PUBLIC POLICY
THAT'S NOT ACTUALLY SPEAKING TO
OR CONNECTING OUR NEIGHBOURHOODS
AND IF WE'RE LOOKING TO REALLY
BRING SOLUTIONS TO THE
SEGREGATED CITY AND THESE
SEGREGATED... AND THIS
SEGREGATED PROVINCE, WE'RE GOING
TO HAVE TO REALLY BRING PEOPLE IN.

Steve says LET ME GIVE THE LAST
30 SECONDS TO DAVID.
I SAW ADAM VAUGHAN RECENTLY AT
AN EVENT AND HE LOOKED PLEASED
AS PUNCH.
HE SAID I HAVE TENS OF BILLIONS
OF DOLLARS IN MY POCKET I CAN
SPEND ON A NATIONAL HOUSING
STRATEGY.
HE THINKS HE'S GOING TO MAKE
REAL PROGRESS ON THIS.
IS HE RIGHT?

David says I WOULD
LIKE TO THINK SO.
MOST OF THAT 11 BILLION dollars THAT HE
AND OTHERS TALK ABOUT HAPPENS 5
YEARS FROM NOW.
SOME OF IT NOW AND A LITTLE BIT
OF IT NEXT YEAR AND NEXT YEAR
BUT ALMOST ALL OF IT IS IN THE
FUTURE.
SO THEY'RE NOT BACK IN THE
HOUSING GAME LIKE THEY USED TO
BE.
WE WERE BUILDING 20,000 SOCIAL
HOUSING UNITS A YEAR, BEFORE
THAT IT WAS 20,000 PUBLIC
HOUSING UNITS PER YEAR.
BILL DAVIS' TIME IN ONTARIO.
VERY AGGRESSIVE PUBLIC HOUSING
PROGRAM.
WE STOPPED DOING THAT.
WE USED TO SUBSIDIZE PRIVATE
RENTAL HOUSING.
WE DON'T ANY LONGER.
IT WAS 1984 WE STOPPED DOING
THAT.
WE HAVE TO DO THAT.
EUROPEAN COUNTRIES DO THAT.
SCANDINAVIAN COUNTRIES DO THAT.
THAT IS ONE IMPORTANT BUT ONLY
ONE IMPORTANT WAY OUT OF IT.

The caption changes to "Producer: Eric Bombicino, @ebombicino."

Steve says LADY AND GENTLEMEN,
THAT IS OUR TIME.
I WANT TO THANK DAVID HULCHANSKI
FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO
FOR COMING IN TONIGHT, MICHELLE
GERMAN FROM EVERGREEN CITY
WORKS, THE BRICKWORKS IS YOUR
PROJECT, ISN'T IT?
THAT'S A COOL PLACE.
AND KOFI HOPE FROM THE CEE
CENTRE FOR YOUNG BLACK
PROFESSIONALS.
GREAT TO HAVE ALL OF YOU AT TVO
TONIGHT.
THANKS SO MUCH.

All the guests say THANK YOU.

Watch: The Segregated City