Transcript: The Agenda's Week in Review | Jun 16, 2017

Nam stands in the studio. She's in her early forties, with shoulder length curly brown hair. She's wearing glasses and a dark gray blazer over a striped red and blue shirt.

A wall screen behind her reads "The week in review."

Nam says THE AGENDA THIS WEEK
WENT INSIDE HILLARY CLINTON'S
DOOMED BID TO BECOME PRESIDENT
OF THE UNITED STATES; CONSIDERED
SEXUAL CONTROVERSY ON UNIVERSITY
CAMPUSES; SEPARATED FACT FROM
FICTION IN THE FIELD OF
NUTRITIONAL SCIENCE; AND ASKED
WHY MEN AREN'T BETTER AT MINDING
THEIR MENTAL HEALTH.
THE AGENDA'S WEEK IN REVIEW
BEGINS WITH COSMOLOGIST LAWRENCE
KRAUSS ON WHY SCIENCE TELLS A
BETTER STORY THAN RELIGION.

Music plays as an animated slate reads "The week in review."

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair.

A caption reads "Unravelling the mysteries of the universe. Big questions."

Steve says FOR A LOT OF US, I
GUESS, TODAY, EINSTEIN IS WHERE
SCIENCE BEGAN.
BUT AS YOU POINT OUT IN THE
BOOK, YOU KNOW, EINSTEIN
COULDN'T BE WHO HE WAS WITHOUT
THE GUY WHO CAME BEFORE HIM.

The caption changes to "Lawrence Krauss. Author, 'The greatest story ever told –So far.'"

Lawrence is in his late fifties, clean-shaven. He's wearing a brown coat and shirt, a black cowboy hat, round glasses, and a spaghetti monster pin.

He says WITHOUT MAXWELL AND FARADAY,
EINSTEIN WOULD BE EINSTEIN AND
WE WOULDN'T KNOW THE NAME.
AS NEWTON SAID, STANDING ON THE
SHOULDERS OF GIANTS, ALTHOUGH HE
WAS MAKING FUN BECAUSE ONE OF
HIS COMPETITORS WAS A DWARF.
HE WAS NOT A VERY NICE GUY,
NEWTON.
HE WAS CRAZY.
BUT, YEAH, IT'S A STORY... YOU
KNOW, WE TEND TO THINK OF
INDIVIDUALS, BUT IT'S A STORY
THAT MANY PEOPLE CONTRIBUTED TO,
AND, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE OTHER
INTERESTING ASPECTS, OF COURSE
EVERYBODY KNOWS OF EINSTEIN AND
THINK THE REVOLUTION IS AT THE
BEGINNING OF THE CENTURY,
EINSTEIN, QUANTUM MECHANICS, ALL
OF THAT, AS THE GOLDEN ERA IN
PHYSICS.
I THINK THERE WILL BE A PERIOD
WHERE ACTUALLY OUR PICTURES OF
THE UNIVERSE CHANGED IN A MORE
REVOLUTIONARY WAY THAN I THINK
THE EARLY 1900s.
IT WAS PROBABLY THE MOST
REVOLUTIONARY PERIOD IN THE 20TH
CENTURY AND MAYBE IN THE HISTORY
OF PHYSICS BUT IT'S NOT KNOWN
ABOUT.
THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS I
WANTED TO WRITE THE BOOK.
WHEN THAT PERIOD BEGAN, WE
UNDERSTOOD ONE FORCE OF NATURE,
ELECTRO MAGNETISM.
BY THE TIME IT WAS OVER WE
UNDERSTOOD THREE OF THE FORCES
IN NATURE AS QUANTUM MECHANICAL
THEORIES.
EVERY EXPERIMENT WE COULD
PERFORM WAS UNDERSTOOD.
FUNDAMENTAL SYMMETRIES OF NATURE
WERE UNDERSTOOD.
AND WE WERE BUILDING THE MOST
COMPLICATED MACHINE HUMANS HAVE
BUILT TO TEST THESE IDEAS.

Steve says THAT MACHINE WAS...

The caption changes to "The Week in Review. @theagenda. Tvo.org."

Lawrence says THE LARGE HADRON COLLIDER.
I HAVE CALLED IT THE GOTHIC
CATHEDRAL OF THE 21ST CENTURY.
THE GOTHIC CATHEDRALS CENTURIES.
AND THE COLLIDER, A NUMBER OF
COUNTRIES, 20 YEARS.
THERE ARE A NUMBER OF CHAPTERS
IN THE BOOK ABOUT THE COLLIDER.
MORE INFORMATION IS GENERATED
THAN IN ALL THE WORLD'S
LIBRARIES EVERY SECOND, AND THAT
HAS TO BE ACCOMMODATED.
AND THIS 26-KILOMETRE-LONG
TUNNEL HAS TO BE EVACUATED WITH
A VACUUM THAT'S SPARSER THAN
THAT AROUND THE INTERNATIONAL
SPACE STATION.
IT'S AMAZING HUMANS BUILT THAT.
IT WASN'T TO MAKE A BETTER CAR
OR TOASTER, IT WAS TO FIGURE OUT
HOW WE GOT HERE.
IT'S AMAZING WE'RE WILLING TO DO
THAT.

Steve says YOU'VE TAKEN ME
EXACTLY WHERE I WANTED TO GO
NEXT.
THE QUESTION EVERYBODY ASKS IS
WHY ARE WE HERE?
I WAS FASCINATED BY THE
DISTINCTION YOU LIKE TO MAKE
BETWEEN, NEVER MIND WHY ARE WE
HERE, HOW ARE WE HERE?

Lawrence says ESSENTIALLY EVERY WHY
QUESTION IS A HOW QUESTION.
IT TELLS US WHAT WE REALLY NEED
TO KNOW.
AND THE HOW ARE WE HERE IS AN
AMAZING SERIES OF COSMIC
ACCIDENTS.
YOU WANTED TO ASK THE WHY
QUESTION.
THERE'S NO REASON WE'RE HERE.
IT'S JUST AN ACCIDENT.
FOR SOME PEOPLE, THAT'S
TERRIFYING AND UPSETTING.
FOR ME IT'S KIND OF ENLIVENING,
THE FACT THAT SOME FIELD IN THE
EARLY UNIVERSE FROZE IN A
CERTAIN WAY THAT ALLOWED THE
UNIVERSE TO BE HERE AND TO MAKE
IT SEEM LIKE IT'S DESIGNED FOR
US.
BUT IN FACT IT'S JUST THIS
ACCIDENT.
AND THAT'S OKAY.

Steve says WELL, NO, I MEAN,
FIRST OF ALL, YOU KNOW THERE ARE
BILLIONS OF PEOPLE WHO FOLLOW
RELIGION WHO DISAGREE WITH YOU.
AND THE OTHER THING YOU SAY IN
THE BOOK VERY EARLY ON IS YOU
THINK WE ARE PROBABLY HARD-WIRED
TO HAVE SOME KIND OF RELIGIOUS
BELIEF FOR WHY WE'RE HERE.

The caption changes to "Lawrence Krauss, @LKrauss1."

Lawrence says SURE.
I THINK WE'RE HARD WIRED TO HAVE
WHAT THE PHILOSOPHERS CALL
TELEOLOGY.
IT'S SIMPLE IN SOME WAYS.
OUR EARLY ANCESTORS ON THE
SAVANNAH, THE LEAFS COULD BE
RUSTLING ON THE TREE AND MAYBE
THAT'S SOMETHING.
OR MAYBE THERE'S A LION.
THE ANCESTORS WHO SAID IT WAS
NOTHING NEVER GOT TO REPRODUCE.
SO WE LOOK FOR PURPOSE AND IT'S
FOR MANY PEOPLE THE IDEA THAT
THERE MIGHT BE NO COSMIC PURPOSE
TO OUR EXISTENCE, SOMEHOW MAKES
THEIR LIVES SEEM LESS
SIGNIFICANT, BUT TO ME, THE FACT
THAT A WHOLE SERIES OF ACCIDENTS
CONSPIRED TO PRODUCE THIS
ILLUSION OF REALITY, THE
PARTICLES THAT MAKE YOU AND I UP
TO HAVE MASS, THAT'S ILLUSION.
THAT'S ONLY THERE BECAUSE
THERE'S THIS INVISIBLE FIELD
EVERYWHERE IN THE UNIVERSE,
WHICH SOUNDS LIKE RELIGION, BY
THE WAY, BUT IT'S NOT.
IF PHYSICS IF YOU POSTULATE AN
INVISIBLE FIELD, YOU HAVE TO
FIND IT, AND THAT'S WHAT WE DID
WITH THE HADRON COLLIDER.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: @theagenda, TVO.org, Facebook, YouTube, Periscope, Instagram."

Steve says I'M GOING TO GET TO THAT.

Lawrence says FOR MANY PEOPLE, THAT IS
DISTURBING, BUT IT SEEMS, WOW,
ISN'T IT AMAZING THAT WE'RE HERE
AND THAT WE SHOULD ENJOY THIS
REMARKABLE ACCIDENT TO HAVE THIS
CONVERSATION AND THAT WE CAN
UNDERSTAND THE UNIVERSE BACK TO
THE EARLIEST MOMENTS OF THE BIG
BANG?
WE SHOULD CELEBRATE THAT AND NOT
BE TERRIFIED BY THE FACT THAT
THE UNIVERSE MAY NOT BE THE
UNIVERSE WE WANT.
THAT'S THE OTHER REALLY
IMPORTANT ASPECT TO THIS.
IS THE UNIVERSE THE WAY IT IS
WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT.

Steve says THE OTHER THING I
FOUND FASCINATING WAS THE NOTION
THAT REALITY... REALITY IS
DIFFERENT FOR YOU AND ME RIGHT
THIS SECOND AS WE LOOK AT THAT
CAMERA RIGHT THERE, WE ARE NOT
EXPERIENCING IT THE SAME WAY
EVEN THOUGH WE ARE SHARING THIS
SPACE AND ARE THE SAME DISTANCE
AWAY FROM IT?

The caption changes to "For more on this story visit: tvo.org/theagenda."

Lawrence says ABSOLUTELY.
IT WAS EINSTEIN WHO REALLY
DEMONSTRATED THAT SPECIFICALLY,
THAT REALITY IS UNIQUE TO EACH
INDIVIDUAL.
REALITY IS WHAT YOU MEASURE,
WHAT YOU SEE, LENGTH, TIME, AND
THAT'S UNIQUE TO OUR
CIRCUMSTANCES.
IT OVERCOMES MYOPIA.
I ONCE WROTE ONE OF THE PURPOSES
OF SCIENCE IS TO MAKE US LESS
COMFORTABLE.
GEE, THAT'S A BAD THING TO SAY.
BUT IT IS.
THAT'S ONE OF THE PURPOSES OF
LEARNING, OF EDUCATION.
IF YOU'RE ALWAYS COMFORTABLE,
YOU KNOW, YOU'RE NEVER LEARNING
AND ONE OF THE REASONS TO GO TO
SCHOOL AND TO EXPERIENCE THINGS
IN LIFE IS TO DISCOVER THE WORLD
ISN'T JUST LIKE YOU ALWAYS
THOUGHT IT WAS WHEN YOU WERE AT
HOME, TO DISCOVER IT'S GRANDER
AND THAT MAYBE SOME OF THE
THINGS YOU THOUGHT WERE NATURAL
OR NOT AND TO EXPAND YOUR MIND.
AND THAT'S THE WONDER OF BEING
HUMAN, IS TO SUDDENLY UNDERSTAND
THAT OUR PLACE IN THE COSMOS AND
OUR INDIVIDUAL NOTIONS OF
REALITY AND WHAT'S SENSIBLE HAS
TO BE CONFRONTED ALL THE TIME.
THAT'S WHY IT'S THE GREATEST
STORY.

Now music plays as an animated slate reads "The week in review."

Steve appears on split screens with a male guest.

A caption reads "Examining nutritional science. Diet not dieting."

Steve says IN THE MAIN, THE
MAIN THING THAT SOMEBODY CAN DO
TO IMPROVE THE CHANCES OF LIVING
A LONGER, HEALTHIER LIFE YOU
THINK IS DIET PROPERLY.
HAVE I GOT THAT RIGHT?

The caption changes to "Norman Campbell. University of Calgary."

Norman is in his mid-forties, clean-shaven, with short gray hair. He's wearing glasses and a gray polo shirt.

He says WELL, IT'S THE BEST EVIDENCE
AND IT'S REALLY NOT MY THOUGHTS,
IT'S A STUDY THAT SHOWS IT'S THE
BEST EVIDENCE THAT EXISTS.

Steve says SHAUNA, ARE YOU
THERE AS WELL?

The caption changes to "Shauna Lindzon. Registered Dietitian."

Shauna is in her late thirties, with shoulder-length wavy brown hair. She's wearing glasses, a white blouse, and a yellow necklace.

She says ABSOLUTELY.
I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH NORM.
THE STATISTICS SHOW THAT ABOUT
30 percent OF CANCERS YOU CAN ATTRIBUTE
TO BAD DIET.
SO THEY GIVE IT THAT STATISTIC.

Steve says YOU'RE IN THE
NUTRITION SCIENCE BUSINESS, EH?

Shauna says ABSOLUTELY, YEAH.

Steve says DO YOU WANT TO GIVE
US A HANDY DANDY DEFINITION OF
WHAT THAT MEANS?

Shauna says I'M A REGISTERED DIETICIAN.
YOU CAN CALL REGISTERED
DIETICIANS A FOOD AND NUTRITION
EXPERT.
WE TAKE THE SCIENTIFIC
KNOWLEDGE, AND WE PUT IT INTO
PRACTICAL TERMS FOR THE PUBLIC.

Steve says HOW RELIABLE IS
NUTRITION SCIENCE?

The caption changes to "Reliable information?"

Shauna says NUTRITION SCIENCE... SCIENCE
IS ALWAYS CHANGING.
SO WHAT WE DO IS WE LOOK AT THE
DIFFERENT STUDIES AND WE LOOK
AT, AS NORM MENTIONED, THE
EXPERT OPINIONS, PEOPLE WHO
STUDY THE NUTRITIONAL SCIENCES,
AND... IT DEPENDS ON THE
DIFFERENT STUDIES, AND WE'LL GET
INTO THAT MORE.

Steve says SURE, ALL RIGHT.
NORM, LET ME GET YOU TO FOLLOW
UP ON THAT.
IN YOUR VIEW, HOW RELIABLE IS
NUTRITION SCIENCE?

Norman says THE WHOLE AREA IS SOMEWHAT
PROBLEMATIC IS THAT PEOPLE
CHOOSE THE FOOD THAT THEY EAT.
IN STUDIES, THE BEST TYPE OF
STUDIES, WE RANDOMIZE PEOPLE TO
HAVE ONE THING OR ANOTHER THING
AND THEN SEE WHAT HAPPENS TO
THEM.
FOR STUDIES ON DIETS, TO LOOK AT
SOMETHING LIKE DEATH, HEART
ATTACK, STROKE, OR CANCER, YOU
PROBABLY NEED TENS OF THOUSANDS
OF PEOPLE TO BE TAKING A CERTAIN
TYPE OF DIET VERSUS A DIFFERENT
TYPE OF DIET FOR 5, 10, OR EVEN
LONGER NUMBER OF YEARS.
AND PEOPLE JUST AREN'T WILLING
TO BE RANDOMIZED TO EAT CERTAIN
TYPES OF FOOD.
WE ALL GO OUT AND EAT WHAT'S IN
OUR ENVIRONMENT, AND SO THOSE
LONG-TERM STUDIES TEND NOT TO BE
SUCCESSFUL, SO WE HAVE TO RELY
ON LESSER DEGREES OF EVIDENCE
WHICH AREN'T QUITE AS RELIABLE.

Steve says YOU'RE PUTTING YOUR
FINGER ON WHAT I'M TRYING TO GET
AT HERE.
LET ME DO A FOLLOW-UP WITH YOU,
NORMAN.
WE'RE UNDER THE PROCESS THAT
THERE'S A FAIRLY RIGOROUS
PROCESS THAT'S UNDERTAKEN BEFORE
A DRUG, AS IT IS TESTED,
EVENTUALLY GETS TO MARKET AND IS
USED TO HELP PATIENTS RECOVER
FROM WHATEVER.
AND ONE WONDERS WHETHER THE
SCIENCE BEHIND NUTRITION IS AS
RIGOROUSLY TESTED AND IS
THEREFORE, AT THE END OF THE
DAY, AS RELIABLE AS, SAY, OTHER
THINGS WOULD BE?

The caption changes to "The Week in Review. @theagenda. Tvo.org."

Norman says AND SO TO ANSWER THAT
QUESTION, NO.
FOR MOST DRUGS, AT LEAST
COMMONLY-USED DRUGS, YOU NEED
RANDOMIZED CONTROL TRIALS WITH
THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE FOLLOWED FOR
MULTIPLE YEARS TO SEE IF THE
DRUG HELPS PREVENT DEATH OR
SERIOUS DISABILITY.
THOSE STUDIES ARE VIRTUALLY
IMPOSSIBLE IN HUMANS, UNLESS
YOU'RE LOOKING AT A SUPPLEMENT.
SO THERE ARE SOME STUDIES
LOOKING AT OLIVE OIL AS A
SUPPLEMENT OR SUPPLEMENTING A
DIET WITH THINGS SUCH AS NUTS
AND SEEDS, AND THOSE CAN BE
SUCCESSFULLY CONDUCTED.
BUT IF YOU'RE ASKING SOMEONE TO,
SAY, EAT LESS SALT, IT'S A
COMPLEX INTERVENTION THAT TENDS
TO BE UNSUCCESSFUL.
PEOPLE JUST AREN'T ABLE TO
FOLLOW THE ADVICE.

Steve says SHAUNA, FOLLOW UP ON
THAT, IF YOU WOULD, ABOUT WHY
IT'S DIFFICULT TO GET RELIABLE
TEST GROUPS, ETC.

Shauna says IT IS DIFFICULT.
THAT'S WHY WE LOOK AT THE
EPIDEMIOLOGICAL STUDIES AND WE
LOOK AT DIFFERENT GROUPS OF
PEOPLE.
SO, FOR INSTANCE, WE LOOK AT
PEOPLE IN INDIA, AS AN EXAMPLE.
WE SEE THEIR RATE OF DISEASE,
WHAT TYPE OF DISEASE THEY'RE
GETTING, AND THEN WE COMPARE...
OR WE LOOK AT THEIR FOOD INTAKE.
SO, FOR INSTANCE, IN INDIA, IF
THEY'RE EATING CERTAIN FOODS,
FOR INSTANCE TURMERIC AND GINGER
AND GARLIC...

Steve says WHAT WAS THE FIRST
THING YOU SAID?

The caption changes to "Shauna Lindzon, @ShaunaLindzonRD."

Shauna says TURMERIC, WHICH IS... IT'S
SIMILAR TO GINGER AND IT HAS AN
ACTIVE COMPONENT CALLED CURCUMIN
IN IT AND THEY THINK IT'S
ANTI-INFLAMMATORY.
THE HYPOTHESIS IS PEOPLE IN
INDIA AREN'T GETTING CANCER,
ACTUALLY THEY GET HEART DISEASE
AND THEY'RE AT HIGH RISK FOR
DIABETES, BECAUSE MAYBE IT'S
SOMETHING THEY'RE EATING IS
PROTECTING THEM AGAINST THE
CANCER.
SO THEN THAT'S WHAT WE DO.
WE LOOK AT THE STUDIES OF WHAT
THE PEOPLE ARE EATING, COMPARED
TO WHAT THEIR DISEASE... WE
COUPLE IT WITH THEIR DISEASE
RATES AND WE CAN SEE IF
PEOPLE... THOSE ARE THE
EPIDEMIOLOGICAL STUDIES.
SO THEY'RE DIFFERENT THAN A CASE
STUDY.

Steve says I GET YOU.
BUT AS NORMAN JUST INDICATED,
IT'S SOMETIMES VERY DIFFICULT TO
CONTROL THE CONTROL GROUP THAT
YOU WANT TO CONTROL IN ORDER TO
GET VALUABLE INFORMATION OUT OF IT.

Shauna says ESPECIALLY WITH FOOD AND DIET.

Steve says RIGHT.

Shauna says IF YOU WANT TO STUDY
SOMETHING, AND I ALWAYS GIVE THE
EXAMPLE OF AN ARTIFICIAL
SWEETENER, LIKE ASPARTAME.
YOU'RE NOT GOING TO TAKE A
HUMAN, PUT THEM IN A LAB FOR 30
DAYS, FEED THEM ONLY ASPARTAME
AND NOTHING ELSE.

Steve says WHICH THEY WOULD
HAVE DONE WITH RATS.

Shauna says EXACTLY.
THE RATS ARE AT THE BOTTOM OF
THE STUDY CHART IN TERMS OF, CAN
WE COMPARE RATS TO HUMANS?

Steve says SO WE ARE COMING A
BIT FULL CIRCLE WHICH IS GETTING
BACK TO MY ROGER QUESTION WHICH
IS HOW RELIABLE THE... BACK TO
MY ORIGINAL QUESTION.
WHAT I'M HEARING FROM BOTH OF
YOU GUYS IS, IT'S IFFY.

The caption changes to "For more on this story visit: tvo.org/theagenda."

Shauna says IT DEPENDS WHAT WE'RE TALKING
ABOUT.
I ALWAYS DO GO BACK TO LOOKING
AT THE POPULATION STUDIES.
FOR EXAMPLE, PEOPLE WHO CONSUME
A MEDITERRANEAN DIET, WHICH
EXISTS OF LOTS OF OLIVE OIL,
FATTY FISH, NUTS AND SEEDS,
WHOLE GRAINS, RED WINE IN
MODERATION, THEY TEND TO HAVE
LOWER RISK OF DISEASE.

Now music plays as an animated slate reads "The week in review."

Steve appears on split screens with a female guest.

A caption reads "Inside Hillary's doomed campaign. The first female president."

Steve says LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT
ONE OF THE FIRST OBVIOUS CHOICES
THAT THE CLINTON CAMPAIGN HAD TO
MAKE, AND THAT WAS, WE REMEMBER
WELL IN 2008, SHE REALLY DIDN'T
HIGHLIGHT THE FACT THAT SHE
COULD HAVE BECOME THE FIRST-EVER
MAJOR PARTY FEMALE CANDIDATE FOR
PRESIDENT.
HOW DID THEY RESOLVE THAT DEBATE
THIS TIME ON HOW HARD TO PLAY,
QUOTE, UNQUOTE, THE FEMALE CARD?

The caption changes to "Amie Parnes. Co-Author, 'Shattered.'"

Amie is in her thirties, with long wavy blond hair. She's wearing a gray cardigan, a pink shirt, and a golden chain necklace.

She says I THINK THEY DID A 180.
I THINK THAT WAS A LESSON THEY
LEARNED LAST TIME, THAT THEY
SHOULD REALLY EMBRACE IT, THAT
THEY SHOULD EMBRACE THE HISTORIC
NATURE OF IT.
AND SO YOU SAW HER TALK ABOUT IT
A LOT ON THE TRAIL, ABOUT, YOU
KNOW, WHAT IT MEANT FOR WOMEN
AND FOR DAUGHTERS AND
GRANDDAUGHTERS.
SHE REALLY FULLY EMBRACED IT
THIS TIME.
AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE
THOUGHT THAT WAS A HUGE MISTAKE
FROM THE LAST CAMPAIGN.

Steve says YOU ALSO TELL US
THAT FOR SOMEBODY WHO HAD BEEN
IN PUBLIC LIFE FOR SO MANY
DECADES, SHE AND HER CAMPAIGN
TEAM APPARENTLY HAD A GREAT DEAL
OF DIFFICULTY REALLY
ARTICULATING IN A NUTSHELL WHAT
HER CANDIDACY WHAT SUPPOSED TO
BE ALL ABOUT.
WHY WOULD THEY HAVE HAD SO MUCH
TROUBLE TRYING TO ARTICULATE
THAT?

Amie says YOU KNOW, IT'S REALLY
INTERESTING.
SHE HAD ESSENTIALLY 8 YEARS TO
FIGURE OUT WHY SHE SHOULD BE
PRESIDENT OR WHY PEOPLE SHOULD
VOTE FOR HER FOR PRESIDENT, WHY
HER AND WHY NOW?
AND SHE NEVER REALLY ADDRESSED
THAT ISSUE.
AND THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS
PROBLEMATIC FOR HER FROM THE
VERY BEGINNING.
MY CO-AUTHOR AND I DETAIL AN
INSIDE ACCOUNT OF HER FIRST...
WHAT WENT ON BEHIND THE SCENES
OF HER FIRST SPEECH, AND IT WAS
KIND OF CHAOTIC FROM THE
BEGINNING.
SHE INVITED ALL THESE ADVISORS
IN TO WORK ON IT AND SPEECH
WRITERS AND EVEN ONE OBAMA
SPEECH WRITER WHO WAS SO
EXASPERATED AT THE END BY THE
PROCESS WHO THREW HIS HANDS UP
IN THE AIR AND LEFT BEFORE THE
SPEECH WAS EVEN DONE, BECAUSE I
THINK HE AND A LOT OF OTHER
PEOPLE WERE FRUSTRATED THAT IT
DIDN'T REALLY SPEAK TO HER.
THERE WAS NO REASON WHY PEOPLE
SHOULD VOTE FOR HER THIS TIME.
IT WAS YOUR TYPICAL DEMOCRATIC
STUMP SPEECH.

Steve says NO REASON TO VOTE
FOR HER OTHER THAN TO MAKE
HISTORY AS THE FIRST FEMALE
PRESIDENT, AND OBVIOUSLY THAT
JUST WASN'T ENOUGH FOR A LOT OF
PEOPLE; RIGHT?

A picture shows hundreds of people holding up blue Bernie Sanders posters.

Amie says RIGHT, EXACTLY.
THE MOST INTERESTING PART OF...
ONE OF THE MOST INTERESTING
PARTS OF THIS ELECTION WAS THE
FACT THAT MILLENNIAL WOMEN
DIDN'T FEEL COMPELLED TO SUPPORT
HER.
THEY FELT LIKE THEY WOULD SEE
ANOTHER WOMAN RUN FOR PRESIDENT
ESSENTIALLY IN THEIR LIFETIME
AND DIDN'T LIKE HER ENOUGH TO
SUPPORT HER, PARTICULARLY ON THE
HEELS OF SUPPORTING SOMEBODY
LIKE BERNIE SANDERS.
THEY FELT LIKE HIS MESSAGE WAS
REALLY RESONATING WITH THEM AND
NOT HERS.

Steve says ONE OF THE MORE
INTERESTING QUOTES YOU'VE GOT IN
THE BOOK IS YOU'RE QUOTING ONE
OF HER CONFIDANTS SAYING SHE
REALLY DIDN'T WANT TO RUN FOR
PRESIDENT, AND THAT JUST DOES
NOT MESH WITH THE CONVENTIONAL
WISDOM OUT THERE ABOUT SECRETARY
CLINTON, WHICH IS THAT SHE'S
THIS, YOU KNOW, RUTHLESSLY
AMBITIOUS PERSON WHO WOULD DRIVE
OVER ANYBODY IN ORDER TO GET
THIS JOB.
WHOSE VERSION OF, YOU KNOW,
WHOSE VERSION OF THE REAL
HILLARY DO YOU BELIEVE ON THIS
ONE?

Pictures flash by of Hilary waving her hand at rallies. She wears a white buttonless blazer.

The caption changes to "The Week in Review. @theagenda. Tvo.org."

Amie says I THINK A LITTLE BIT OF BOTH,
WHICH IS INTERESTING.
I THINK SHE WANTED TO RUN FOR
PRESIDENT.
SHE FEELS LIKE SHE IS THE RIGHT
PERSON WITH THE RIGHT IDEAS.
SHE'S VERY POLICY DRIVEN.
BUT I THINK 2008 REALLY... IT
TOOK A HIT... SHE TOOK A HIT
THERE AND IT TOOK HER A WHILE TO
KIND OF REBOUND AND REALIZE WHAT
HAD HAPPENED.
SHE DIDN'T KNOW IF SHE WANTED TO
PUT HERSELF THROUGH THAT AGAIN.
SO THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO KNOW
HER VERY WELL WHO KIND OF AGREED
WITH THAT MODEL AND DIDN'T THINK
THAT SHE SHOULD DO THAT AND WANT
TO GO THROUGH THAT AGAIN.
IT'S A REALLY TIRESOME PROCESS.
SHE HAD JUST HAD GRANDCHILDREN.
A LOT OF PEOPLE THOUGHT THAT SHE
SHOULD JUST, YOU KNOW, DO
SOMETHING DIFFERENT.
BUT, YOU KNOW, I THINK SHE FELT
COMPELLED AT THE END OF THE DAY
THAT SHE WAS THE RIGHT PERSON
AND THAT SHE WAS THE RIGHT
PERSON FOR THE RIGHT TIME AND
HAD THE RIGHT IDEAS TO KIND OF
TAKE THE COUNTRY FORWARD AFTER 8
YEARS OF BARACK OBAMA.

Steve says AND YET THERE WAS A
FAMILY FRIEND WHO YOU QUOTE IN
THE BOOK AS HAVING SAID TO
SECRETARY CLINTON, EVERYBODY
KNOWS WHO YOU ARE BUT NO ONE
KNOWS WHO YOU ARE.
AND I WONDER, AGAIN, HOW CAN
THAT BE WITH SOMEBODY WHO HAS
BEEN IN THE PUBLIC EYE FOR SO
MANY DECADES?

Amie says IT'S A VERY STRANGE THING
BECAUSE SHE IS A PUBLIC SERVANT
AND YET SHE WANTS TO REMAIN
PRIVATE.
IT'S THIS CONSTANT PUSH-PULL OF
HOW MUCH CAN SHE ACTUALLY...
DOES SHE WANT TO REVEAL OF
HERSELF TO THE PUBLIC, AND I
THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE
REASONS... OR ONE OF THE
PROBLEMS WE SAW THIS TIME, THAT,
YOU KNOW, SHE WANTED A PRIVATE
EMAIL SERVER BECAUSE... BECAUSE
OF THAT DYNAMIC, THAT SHE
DOESN'T WANT ALL HER EMAILS OUT
THERE.
SHE DIDN'T WANT TO BE EXPOSED IN
THAT WAY.
AND THAT CAME BACK TO HAUNT HER
AND THAT WAS A HUGE PROBLEM FOR
HER IN THIS CAMPAIGN.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: @theagenda, TVO.org, Facebook, YouTube, Periscope, Instagram."

Steve says WELL, LET ME ASK
ABOUT HER JUDGMENT, AND SINCE
YOU BROUGHT UP THE e-mail SERVER,
I'LL DOVE TAIL OFF OF THAT
BECAUSE SHE CAME IN FOR BIG-TIME
CRITICISM ON TWO THINGS, THE
PRIVATE e-mail SERVER WAS ONE AND
GIVING SPEECHES TO WALL STREET
FIRMS WHERE SHE CHARGED MORE
THAN 200,000 dollars TO MAKE THOSE
SPEECHES.
SHE HAD TO KNOW IF SHE INTENDED
TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT, THOSE
COULD BE TWO THINGS THAT COULD
COME BACK TO BITE HER AND YET
SHE DID THEM ANYWAY.
DOES ANYBODY KNOW WHY SHE WOULD
SEEM TO DO SELF DESTRUCTIVE
THINGS?

The caption changes to "The rules she plays by."

Amie says NO, THAT WAS A BIG QUESTION
AND BOTH LOOMED OVER HER
CAMPAIGN THROUGHOUT.
THE e-mail CONTROVERSY, FOR
INSTANCE, SHE WAS HAVING TO GO
ON DEFENCE A MONTH BEFORE SHE
EVEN ANNOUNCED HER CANDIDACY,
AND THIS WAS A NARRATIVE THAT
LOOMED OVER HER CAMPAIGN THE
ENTIRE TIME, AND PARTICULARLY IN
THE FIRST 6 MONTHS WHERE SHE IS
TRYING TO PUSH A MESSAGE AND AN
ECONOMIC MESSAGE AND SHE IS
BEING DROWNED OUT BY THIS
CONTROVERSY.
AND THERE'S A MOMENT OF
FRUSTRATION THERE THAT WE TALK
ABOUT IN THE BOOK, WHERE SHE AND
HER HUSBAND ARE ON A CALL WITH A
LOT OF AIDES AND THEY ARE
FRUSTRATED AND THEY'RE ASKING
THEIR AIDES WHY THEY'RE NOT ABLE
TO PUSH AN ECONOMIC MESSAGE, AND
ESSENTIALLY THEY'RE TOLD, WELL,
THE e-mail CONTROVERSY IS
DROWNING US OUT, AND THERE WAS
AN INTERNAL DEBATE OVER WHETHER
TO GET OUT IN FRONT OF IT.

The caption changes to "For more on this story visit: tvo.org/theagenda."

Amie continues A LOT OF HER AIDES FELT LIKE SHE
AND THE PRESIDENT OR THE FORMER
PRESIDENT NEEDED TO TALK ABOUT
IT AND SHE IN PARTICULAR NEEDED
TO APOLOGIZE FOR WHY SHE FELT
THE NEED TO HAVE A PRIVATE
SERVER, AND I THINK... YOU KNOW,
I THINK THAT WAS... IT TOOK HER
SO LONG TO KIND OF REALIZE THAT
IT WAS A PROBLEM, AND THAT
NARRATIVE KIND OF WAS VERY
PROBLEMATIC FOR HER AND SHE
NEVER REALLY RECOVERED FROM IT.
AND EVEN WHEN SHE APOLOGIZED, IT
TOOK HER A COUPLE OF TRIES TO
ACTUALLY COME FORWARD AND GIVE A
GOOD ENOUGH ANSWER.

Now music plays as an animated slate reads "The week in review."

Steve sits with a female guest.

A caption reads "Fear and loathing in American academia. Silencing of discourse."

Steve says YOU'VE KIND OF
BECOME THE CENTRAL CLEARINGHOUSE
FOR THE KINDS OF STORIES THAT
ARE NOW ON POSTSECONDARY
CAMPUSES ALL OVER AMERICA.

The caption changes to "Laura Kipnis. Northwestern University."

Laura is in her late forties, with wavy brown hair in a bowl cut. She's wearing a blue blouse, a silver pendant necklace, and silver hoop earrings.

She says YOU SHOULD SEE MY EMAIL INBOX.
IT'S TRAGIC.
DAILY I GET EMAILS FROM PEOPLE
BROUGHT UP ON THE MOST ABSURD...

Steve says GIVE US AN EXAMPLE.

Laura says WELL, THERE'S A REALLY TRAGIC
CASE OF A KID... SO I HEARD FROM
A LOT OF PROFESSORS AND I HEARD
ALSO FROM STUDENTS, MOSTLY MALE
STUDENTS BROUGHT UP ON SOME
CHARGE THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY
FOUND WAS SPECIOUS.
HERE'S AN EXAMPLE.
AN 18-YEAR-OLD KID WHO WAS IN A
RELATIONSHIP WITH A GIRL WHO WAS
A YEAR OLDER AND THEY LATER
BROKE UP AND SHE ACCUSED HIM
AFTER THE BREAK-UP OF HAVING...
THEY WERE IN A SITUATION WHERE
HE ASKED FOR ORAL SEX FROM HER
MAYBE TWICE AND SHE WAS KIND OF
NOT INTO IT AND THEN BRIEFLY
COMPLIED AND THEN STOPPED, AND
THEN LATER ON ACCUSED HIM OF
NON-CONSENSUAL SEX AND HE WAS
FOUND GUILTY BY HIS UNIVERSITY
OF EMOTIONAL COERCION AND
EXPELLED.
AND IF YOU'RE EXPELLED FOR
SOMETHING LIKE THAT, YOU REALLY
CAN'T GET INTO ANOTHER SCHOOL
BECAUSE ALL SCHOOLS ASK, HAVE
YOU BEEN EXPELLED FOR SOME SORT
OF MISCONDUCT?
SO THIS KID, AT AGE 18, IN THE
CONTEXT OF WHAT I THINK WAS
REALLY SEXUAL AWKWARDNESS AND
INEXPERIENCE AS OPPOSED TO THIS
KID BEING A PREDATOR, HIS LIFE
IS MORE OR LESS RUINED.
WHAT PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE WHEN
THEY TALK ABOUT THE SEXUAL
ASSAULT PROBLEM IS THAT THE
DEFINITION OF SEXUAL ASSAULT HAS
BEEN SO EXPANDED AND ELASTICIZED
THAT A CASE LIKE THAT, WHICH IS
MURKY, WHICH HAS, YOU KNOW, A
BREAK-UP INVOLVED, IS BEING
PROSECUTED AS SEXUAL ASSAULT,
AND I'LL JUST SAY ONE OTHER
THING.
THE GENDER BIAS IN THOSE KINDS
OF DECISIONS, SO A STUDENT TEAM
DECIDED THAT THIS 18-YEAR-OLD
KID HAD MORE EMOTIONAL POWER
THAN THE WOMAN DID IN THAT
SITUATION...

Steve says WHO WAS OLDER THAN HIM.

Laura says WHO WAS OLDER.
I REALLY DO THINK THAT THERE'S A
KIND OF GENDER BIAS BAKED INTO
THESE DECISIONS AND THAT'S WHAT
REALLY NEEDS TO BE TALKED ABOUT
AND ISN'T.

Steve says DO YOU FEEL AT THE
BOTTOM OF IT ALL THERE IS AT
LEAST A WELL-INTENTIONED EFFORT
TO PREVENT WOMEN FROM SUFFERING
MORE?

Laura says YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.
AND, YES, THERE IS A SEXUAL
ASSAULT PROBLEM ON CAMPUS.
I THINK THAT TALKING IN MORE
SPECIFICS ABOUT WHAT REALLY IS
HAPPENING, BECAUSE I THINK
THERE'S A MYTH ABOUT THE SERIAL
PREDATORS ROAMING CAMPUSES
STALKING FRESHMEN WOMEN.
I THINK THE REALITY IS, YOU HAVE
SITUATIONS LIKE THE ONE I
DESCRIBED WHERE THE CONSENT
ISSUE IS MURKY, YOU HAVE AN
INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF DRINKING...
I MEAN, DRINKING TO THE POINT OF
EVERYONE PASSING OUT OR BEING
COMATOSE AND SEX HAPPENING UNDER
THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES, AND I THINK
YOU ALSO DO HAVE A LEVEL OF
SEX... AND I'VE LEARNED ABOUT
THIS FROM TALKING TO MY OWN
STUDENTS, MOSTLY WOMEN STUDENTS,
THAT IS JUST BAD SEX WHERE
PEOPLE ARE HAVING SEX THAT THEY
DIDN'T WANT TO HAVE, THAT THEY
WERE COERCED OR PERSUADED INTO
HAVING, AND I THINK THAT WOMEN
THESE DAYS IN HOOKUP CULTURE ARE
NOT SUFFICIENTLY BEING TAUGHT OR
EDUCATED IN HOW TO SAY NO OR IN
WHAT THEY WANT, AND I THINK
THERE'S THIS COLLISION OF KIND
OF THIS PERMISSIVE ASPECT OF
HOOKUP CULTURE WITH THIS NEW
FEARFULNESS AND SENSE OF SEX IS
HARMFUL AND TRAUMATIC, AND I
THINK THIS IS RESULTING IN THIS
JUST EXPANDING NUMBER OF
AFTER-THE-FACT ACCUSATIONS THAT
CAMPUS ADMINISTRATORS ARE, IN
GOOD FAITH, AS YOU SAY, TRYING
TO ADJUDICATE.

The caption changes to "The Week in Review. @theagenda. Tvo.org."

Steve says YOU CALL IT HOOKUP
CULTURE BUT I THINK THERE ARE
MANY WHO NOW CALL IT RAPE
CULTURE.
TELL US WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT
THAT APPELLATION?

Laura says YEAH, I THINK THERE CAN BE A THIN DIVIDING LINE PARTICULARLY
GIVEN THE ALCOHOL AND THE
QUESTION OF CONSENT.
SO MOST UNIVERSITIES IN THE U.S.
NOW HAVE POLICIES THEY CALL
AFFIRMATIVE CONSENT, MEANING NOT
SAYING NO ISN'T ENOUGH.
THERE HAS TO BE AN ARTICULATED
YES.
OTHERWISE, IT CAN BE PROSECUTED
AS ASSAULT.

Steve says IS THAT REASONABLE?

The caption changes to "Laura Kipnis. Author, 'Unwanted advances.'"
Then, it changes again to "Shifting sexual mores."

Laura says YOU KNOW, WE'RE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD.
I MEAN, SEX IS NOT ALWAYS SO
STRAIGHTFORWARD.
YOU KNOW, THE CONDITIONS UNDER
WHICH IT UNFOLDS AREN'T ALWAYS,
I THINK TO BOTH PARTIES, EITHER
PARTIES, SO CLEAR.
SO I DO THINK THERE ARE CASES...
CERTAINLY YOU HAVE PEOPLE,
USUALLY MEN, FORCING SEX ON
WOMEN WHO DON'T WANT IT; IN
OTHER CASES YOU HAVE SOMEBODY
WHO REGRETS AFTER THE FACT AND
PRESSES CHARGES, SOMETIMES
MONTHS OR EVEN YEARS LATER ABOUT
SOME, YOU KNOW, HALF-REMEMBERED
EPISODE.
IS THAT FAIR?
YOU KNOW, I THINK MOSTLY NOT.

Steve says HERE'S AN EXCERPT
FROM YOUR BOOK THAT SPEAKS TO THIS...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "What's what?" The quote reads "Most campus rape activists now argue that rape doesn't require penetration. Focusing on the physical specifics of sexual assault is 'archaic' and disrespectful to victims. Even shifting the focus from the act to whether it was consented to is problematic... since it puts victims in the position of proving they aren't lying."
Quoted from Laura Kipnis, "Unwanted advances." 2017.

Steve says WHERE DO WE WANT TO
GO HERE?
I MEAN, THE WHOLE IDEA IS TO
PROTECT WOMEN FROM UNWANTED
SEXUAL ADVANCES AND FROM BEING
PREYED UPON, OBVIOUSLY, THAT'S
WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT.
DO YOU THINK THE PERVERSE,
ACTUAL CONSEQUENCE OF THIS IS
TO... WELL, I SHOULD JUST ASK
YOU: WHAT DO YOU THINK THE
PERVERSE ACTUAL CONSEQUENCE OF
THIS?

The caption changes to "For more on this story visit: tvo.org/theagenda."

Laura says FIRST I THINK SEX IS BEING
CRIMINALIZED.
AGAIN, IT'S MOSTLY YOUNG MEN WHO
WERE BEING TOSSED OUT LEFT AND
RIGHT.
AND THE OTHER PERVERSE
UNINTENDED EFFECT IS THAT I
THINK WOMEN ARE MORE AND MORE
DISEMPOWERED AND HANDING OVER
AGENCY TO CAMPUS ADMINISTRATORS.
I MEAN, MY FEELING AS A TEACHER
IS WE ARE NOT EDUCATING STUDENTS
BY FOCUSING SO MUCH ON
REGULATION AND PUNISHMENT AND
CHANNELING OUR DOLLARS, YOU
KNOW, EDUCATION DOLLARS TOWARD
THIS JUSTICE SYSTEM, A VERY
UNFAIR JUSTICE SYSTEM, ON
CAMPUS.
I THINK THESE KIDS ARE BEING
PROSECUTED, THERE ISN'T DUE
PROCESS, YOU KNOW, HALF THE TIME
PEOPLE AREN'T EVEN TOLD WHAT
THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO HAVE DONE.
I MEAN, I FOUND OUT ABOUT THE
PROCESS... THEY WOULDN'T PUT THE
CHARGES IN WRITING, YOU DON'T
KNOW WHAT THE EVIDENCE IS.
THE TERM "KANGAROO COURT" GET
USED QUITE A LOT.
IF YOU'RE A STUDENT GOING
THROUGH THAT PROCESS, I THINK
THESE PEOPLE ARE TERRIFIED AND
DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO.

Now music plays as an animated slate reads "The week in review."

Steve sits with a male guest.

A caption reads "Facing the man in the mirror. The grim number."

Steve says WE NEED SOME
UNDERSTANDING OF THIS.
APPARENTLY WOMEN ATTEMPT SUICIDE
MORE THAN MEN DO, BUT MEN DIE AT
A RATE FOUR TIMES THAT OF WOMEN.
HELP US UNDERSTAND THIS.

The caption changes to "Thomas Ungar. Saint Michael's Hospital."

Thomas is in his mid-forties, clean-shaven, with short brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, shirt and tie.

He says YEAH, KIND OF SURPRISING.
ABOUT ONE IN TEN PEOPLE GET A
DEPRESSION IN THEIR LIVES, MEN
AND WOMEN.
TOTALLY VULNERABLE TO IT.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE SUICIDE
RATES, WHAT YOU SEE IS THE
COMPLETERS ARE PREDOMINANTLY
MEN.
OFTEN IT'S A FEATURE OF THE FACT
THAT MEN OFTEN ACT OUT, THEY MAY
BE A LITTLE MORE VIOLENT IN
THEIR ATTEMPTS, OR THEY KEEP TO
THEMSELVES, DELAY GETTING
TREATMENT, SO WHEN THEY FINALLY
DO GET AROUND IT, THEY'RE OFTEN
SADLY SUCCESSFUL IN THAT
ATTEMPT.

Steve says FOR MEN UNDER THE
AGE OF 35, APPARENTLY SUICIDE IS
THE LEADING CAUSE OF DEATH.
THAT IS THE CASE TODAY.
IF WE WERE HAVING THIS
CONVERSATION 30, 40 YEARS AGO,
WOULD THAT HAVE BEEN THE CASE
THEN?

Thomas says PROBABLY.
MENTAL HEALTH HAS BEEN THERE, IT
HASN'T BEEN A TOPIC AS COMMONLY
DISCUSSED AS IT IS NOW, WHICH IS
A GOOD THING THAT WE'RE TALKING
ABOUT IT.
BUT WE REALLY HAVEN'T MADE A BIG
DIFFERENCE IN SUICIDE RATES IN
TERMS OF PUBLIC HEALTH.
IT'S QUITE SHOCKING.

Steve says AGAIN, A BRITISH
STUDY SUGGESTING THAT UNLIKE
WOMEN, MEN, WHEN FEELING DOWN,
WILL TRY TO DISTRACT THEMSELVES.
I GUESS... I GUESS I WANT TO ASK
WHETHER WATCHING THE GAME IS A
BETTER WAY OF SPENDING TIME
PONDERING YOUR, YOU KNOW,
MISERY, THAN SOMETHING ELSE?

The caption changes to "Thomas Ungar. University of Toronto."
Then, it changes again to "Not paying attention."

Thomas says YEAH, SO, I MEAN, CULTURALLY,
MEN OFTEN KEEP THINGS TO
THEMSELVES.
THEY DON'T TALK ABOUT IT AS
MUCH.
THEY LIKE TO TAKE ACTION, THEY
LIKE TO SOLVE PROBLEMS.
WE LIKE TO PLAY SPORTS AND
DIFFUSE THAT WITH ACTIVITIES
AROUND IT.
THAT'S VERY COMMON.
THINGS LIKE SPORTS ARE HEALTHY
WAYS OF COPING WITH FRUSTRATION,
STRESS, AND LETTING STEAM OFF.

Steve says DO MEN'S MENTAL
HEALTH PROBLEMS, ARE THEY MORE
LARGELY UNDIAGNOSED THAN WOMEN?

The caption changes to "The Week in Review. @theagenda. Tvo.org."

Thomas says I DON'T THINK WE KNOW THAT
EXACTLY.
MOST LIKELY.
THAT'S MY IMPRESSION.
WHEN THE MEN COME TO SEE ME,
THEY'RE USUALLY A LITTLE FURTHER
DOWN THE ROAD IN TERMS OF THE
ACUTE OF THE ILLNESS.
THEY DON'T LIKE TO COME FOR
HELP, THEY DON'T LIKE TO...

Steve says ALL MACHO CRAP, EH?

Thomas says THAT'S ONE TAKE OF IT.
ANOTHER TAKE ON IT JUST MIGHT BE
THE WAY WE'RE INTERACTING WITH
THEM AND THE WAY THEY COME FOR
HELP IS NOT A MALE WAY OF
ACCESSING HELP.
TALKING IN A CIRCLE IS NOT WHAT
GUYS DO, OR TALKING ONE ON ONE
WITH A THERAPIST OR A DOCTOR.
WE'RE GETTING TO AN INTERESTING
QUESTION, ARE THE WAYS WE'RE
REACHING OUT DESIGNED TO GET TO
MEN THE WAY MEN EXPERIENCE
CULTURE, THE WAY THEY INTERACT
WITH THINGS?
ALL THE NEW SOCIAL MEDIA AND
ATTEMPT BY SOME OF THE MEN'S
FOUNDATIONS AND CHARITIES THAT
ARE DOING GREAT WORK ARE JUST
STARTING TO GET INTO THAT, TO
SEE IF THERE ARE INNOVATIVE WAYS
TO ACCESS THEM.
WE WEREN'T THINKING TO LOOK AT
MEN YEARS AGO.
WE WERE SO FOCUSED ON
WONDERFULLY IDENTIFYING THE
SPECIFICALLY WOMEN'S ISSUE.

Steve says DON'T EXAGGERATE IT
IF IT'S NOT A WIDESPREAD THING.
HOW PREVALENT DO YOU THINK THE
MALE PART OF POSTPARTUM
DEPRESSION WOULD BE?

The caption changes to "Thomas Ungar, @DrThomasUngar."

Thomas says DEPRESSION IS ABOUT 8 TO 10 percent IN PEOPLE.
IN THE POST NATAL PERIOD,
PROBABLY A LITTLE HIGHER,
PROBABLY 10 TO 15 percent.
I'M GUESSING.

Steve says THERE'S A STUDY FROM
AUSTRALIA THAT SUGGESTS THAT:
"THERE IS A STRONG ELEMENT OF
NEGATIVITY IN OUR CULTURE ABOUT
MEN WHICH CANNOT CONTRIBUTE TO
POSITIVE MENTAL HEALTH."
DO YOU SIGN ONTO THAT VIEW?

Thomas says WOW.
YEAH.
THERE'S A BIT OF THAT GOING ON.
I THINK WE'VE DONE SUCH A GOOD
JOB WITH EQUALITY IN SOCIETY AND
GENDER EQUITY.
THE QUESTION IS, HAS IT BECOME A
BIT OF REVERSE DISCRIMINATION?
HAVE WE PUSHED IT TO
DEMONIZATION OF MEN.
WE OFTEN HAVE WOMEN'S MENTAL
HEALTH CLINICS, WE MIGHT HAVE
MORE WOMEN'S SHELTERS.
THEY'RE NOT THINKING OF PLACING
THE MEN'S STUFF IN THERE.
I DON'T WANT TO OVERSTATE THAT.
BUT PROBABLY THE PENDULUM SWUNG
A LITTLE BIT OVER THE EDGE ON
OCCASION AGAINST MEN.

Steve says YOU LOOK AT MASS
MEDIA, THE FACT IS MOST OF THE
CRIMINAL... REPORTING ABOUT
CRIME FOCUSES ON THE
DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBER OF MEN
WHO ARE DOING IT AND ALL OF THE
OTHER ILLS IN SOCIETY SEEM TO BE
DISPROPORTIONATELY FOCUSED ON
MEN.
IS IT REASONABLE TO ASSUME WITH
MEN WATCHING THIS WE'RE THE BANE
OF EVERYBODY'S EXISTENCE OUT
THERE?

Thomas says IN THE MEDIA, IT'S LIKE THE
ADULT CHILD.
THEY AREN'T TEENAGER MOVIES,
GUYS IN THE BASEMENT AT 35 YEARS
OLD PLAYING VIDEO GAMES.
THERE NOT A LOT OF ROLE MODELING
FOR POSITIVE FRAMING OF MEN THE
WAY THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN IN THE
DAYS OF THE OLD JOHN WAYNE
MOVIES.
I DON'T KNOW THAT'S BETTER.
WE DON'T HAVE A POSITIVE
IDENTITY FOR A LOT OF YOUNG GUYS
TO LOOK AT THESE DAYS.

Steve says LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT
STIGMA.
FOR THE LONGEST TIME, THE MENTAL
HEALTH COMMUNITY HAS PUT OUT THE
NOTION, IF YOU BREAK YOUR LEG,
YOU GO TO THE DOCTOR, GET YOUR
LEG FIXED.
NOBODY THINGS THERE'S ANYTHING
FUNNY ABOUT THAT.
IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM IN YOUR
HEAD, THERE'S STIGMA FOR GETTING
HELP FOR WHAT AILS YOU.
THE EFFORTS THAT HAVE BEEN
ONGOING, BELL LET'S TALK,
EVERYTHING ELSE, ARE THEY
WORKING TO REDUCE STIGMA
ASSOCIATED WITH MENTAL HEALTH IN
OUR PROVINCE?

The caption changes to "Contending with stigma."

Thomas says THEY ARE BUT SORT OF HALFWAY.
THEY'RE GREAT INITIATIVES.
THE EVIDENCE IS SOMETHING I DO
WORK IN.
I WRITE IN THIS AREA.
THEY'RE MODERN INTERVENTIONS
THAT HAVE DONE WELL BUT NOT THE
STRONGEST ONES.
THEY'RE UP AGAINST A BIG
CHALLENGE.
I THINK WE'RE KIND OF SCREWED IN
MENTAL HEALTH.

Steve says HOW DO YOU MEAN?

Thomas says EVERYTHING ELSE IS PHYSICAL.
IT GOES WAY BACK TO THE
PHILOSOPHER DESCARTES WHO
SEPARATED MIND AND BODY.
EVERYTHING ELSE IN HEALTH CARE
IS PHYSICAL, IT'S THE BODY, AND
THE ONE AREA OF THE IMMATERIAL,
THE MIND, THE SOUL, IS THIS
SCARY FACE ASSOCIATED WITH NOT
BEING QUITE AS REAL.
TRYING TO UNDERMINE THAT SORT OF
CULTURAL PHILOSOPHICAL THING,
IT'S INHERENT IN OUR LANGUAGE
AND CULTURE, REALLY EVERYTHING
WE DO.
WE'RE UP AGAINST CULTURE, NOT
JUST MENTAL HEALTH.
THE CHALLENGE IS HOW DO WE PLAY
WITH CULTURE TO TRY TO PULL IT
BACK INTO REGULAR HEALTH.
ONE OF THE MAIN THINGS I DO WITH
PEOPLE WHEN I SEE THEM IS I
CONFIRM TO THEM IT'S NOT YOUR
FAULT, YOU'RE NOT WEAK, NOTHING
TO DO WITH YOU, IT'S JUST AN
ILLNESS.
THAT'S PROBABLY THE BIGGEST
THING I DO TO HELP PEOPLE.
IT'S NOT THAT HARD TO HELP
TREATMENT, GETTING THEM TO
ACCEPT TREATMENT AND NOT BLAME
THEMSELVES.

Steve says WHEN YOU PUT THAT
EXPLANATION OUT THERE TO
PATIENTS, DO THEY BUY IT?

The caption changes to "For more on this story visit: tvo.org/theagenda."

Thomas says THEY LIKE HEARING IT.
IT GIVES THEM PERMISSION.
I PROBABLY HAVE TO REPEAT IT
THREE, FOUR TIMES, OFTEN FOR
YEARS.
IT'S A TOUGHIE.

The clips end. Nam stands in the studio alone.

She says THAT IS THE AGENDA'S
WEEK IN REVIEW FOR THIS FRIDAY,
JUNE 16, 2017.
YOU CAN SEE ALL OF THOSE
INTERVIEWS IN THEIR ENTIRETY AT
tvo.org, ON OUR YouTube CHANNEL
AT YouTube.com/TheAgenda AND
THANKS TO OUR NIGHTLY TWITTER
LIVESTREAM, ON OUR PERISCOPE
PAGE AT periscope.tv/TheAgenda.

Watch: The Agenda's Week in Review