Transcript: Faulty Towers | Feb 07, 2017

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, pale pink shirt, and striped lilac and gray tie.

A caption on screen reads "Faulty towers? @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says DENSE BY DESIGN,
WALKABLE, DIVERSE AND URBAN,
ONTARIO'S CAPITAL CITY IS FAST
BECOMING A CONDO CITY.
BUT FROM FALLING GLASS TO NOISY
NEIGHBOURS, THE REALITY OF CONDO
LIFE IS BIT MORE COMPLICATED
THAN THE SOPHISTICATED STYLE
PROMISED BY THE DEVELOPERS OF
THESE NEW TOWERS.
WHAT IS A PROSPECTIVE CONDO
BUYER TO THINK?
HERE TO SHARE SOME EXPERTISE:
JENNIFER KEESMAAT, CHIEF
PLANNER, CITY OF TORONTO...

Jennifer is in her forties, with blond hair in a short bob. She's wearing glasses, a dark gray blazer over a checkered shirt, and a pendant necklace.

Steve continues CHRIS WEIN, PRESIDENT, OF THE
DEVELOPMENT COMPANY, GREAT GULF...

Chris is in his forties, clean-shaven, with short brown hair. He's wearing glasses, a gray suit and a blue shirt.

Steve continues PAUL De BERARDIS, DIRECTOR,
INNOVATION, RESIDENTIAL
CONSTRUCTION COUNCIL OF ONTARIO...

Paul is in his late thirties, balding, with a stubble. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and black tie.

Steve continues AND AUDREY LOEB, REAL ESTATE
LAWYER, MILLER THOMSON LLP.

Audrey is in her sixties, with short blond hair. She's wearing round glasses, a gray blazer over a white blouse, and large pearl earrings.

Steve continues it's good to have all of you
around our table here at TVO tonight.
THANKS FOR COMING IN.
LET'S SHARE SOME FACTS TO SET UP
OUR CONVERSATION BEFORE WE
BEGIN.
SHELDON, THANK YOU FOR BRINGING
THESE UP.

A slate appears on screen, with the title "Condo living in Ontario, 2014."

Steve reads data from the slate and says
ACCORDING TO THE ASSOCIATION OF
CONDOMINIUM MANAGERS OF ONTARIO,
AS OF 2014 THERE WERE MORE THAN
1.3 MILLION CONDOMINIUM
RESIDENTS IN ONTARIO.
MORE THAN 10 percent OF ONTARIO'S
POPULATION LIVED IN THE
APPROXIMATELY 600,000
RESIDENTIAL CONDO UNITS.

The slate changes to one titled "Building Toronto. From 2011 to 2015."

Steve reads and says
FROM THE YEARS 2011 TO 2015,
MORE THAN 300,000 RESIDENTIAL
UNITS WERE PROPOSED IN THE CITY
OF TORONTO.
IN THE SAME TIME PERIOD, CANADA
MORTGAGE AND HOUSING CORPORATION
RECORDED MORE THAN 85,000
RESIDENTIAL UNITS COMPLETED IN
TORONTO.
83 percent OF THESE UNITS WERE CONDO
APARTMENTS, AN ALL-TIME HIGH IN
TORONTO'S DEVELOPMENT HISTORY.
IN THE G.T.A. OUTSIDE OF
TORONTO, CONDOMINIUM APARTMENTS
COMPRISE ONLY 21 percent OF UNITS
COMPLETED IN THE LAST 5 YEARS.

The slate changes to another, titled "Average selling price. 2016, 4th quarter."

Steve reads and says
AND ACCORDING TO THE
JUST-RELEASED FIGURES BY THE
TORONTO REAL ESTATE BOARD, THE
AVERAGE CONDO APARTMENT SELLING
PRICE IN THE G.T.A. FOR THE
FOURTH QUARTER OF LAST YEAR WAS
UP BY 14.5 percent TO MORE THAN 437,000 dollars.
LOTS TO CATCH UP ON HERE.
PAUL, I'M GOING TO START WITH YOU.
I WANT TO START WITH WHAT
HAPPENED 6 YEARS AGO IN TORONTO,
BIG STORY BACK THEN.
13 PANES OF GLASS FELL FROM
CONSTRUCTION SITES OF A
CONDOMINIUM UNIT THAT WAS BEING
BUILT DOWNTOWN BETWEEN UNITS,
BETWEEN DECEMBER 2010 AND AUGUST
2011, WHICH WAS PRETTY SCARY ASI RECALL BACK IN THE
DAY.
YOU STUDIED THIS.

Paul says YES.

Steve says HOW AND WHY DID THIS
HAPPEN?

The caption changes to "Paul De Berardis. Residential Construction Council of Ontario."
Then, it changes again to "Glass falling."

Paul says THERE'S A
NUMBER OF FACTORS THAT CAN
RELATE TO SOME OF THESE BREAKAGE
INCIDENTS HAPPENING.
SOME RELATE TO THE MATERIALS
USED IN THESE CLADDING SYSTEMS
AS WELL AS OTHERS RELATE TO THE
ACTUAL INSTALLATION PRACTICES
UTILIZED FOR THESE GUARDRAIL OR
CLADDING SYSTEMS.

Steve says CUTTING CORNERS.
HOW MUCH OF AN EXPLANATION WAS
THAT?

Paul says I DON'T
THINK IT WAS SO MUCH CUTTING
CORNERS.
I BELIEVE IT WAS MORE THAT THE
INDUSTRY IS EVOLVING.
THE USE OF GLASS IS BECOMING
MORE PREVALENT.
AND THERE WAS STILL A LEARNING
CURVE TO ALMOST MASTER THE USE
AND INSTALLATION OF SOME OF
THESE GLASS CLADDING AND BALCONY
GUARDRAIL SYSTEMS.

Steve says CHRIS, IT DID KEEP
HAPPENING.
BY 2012, ABOUT 30 PANES OF GLASS
FELL TO THE GROUND.
I WONDER HOW YOU THINK THIS
AFFECTED THE REPUTATION OF CONDO
DEVELOPERS PROVINCE-WIDE?

The caption changes to "Chris Wein. Great Gulf."

Chris says I THINK IT'S A CHALLENGE.
WE'RE GOING THROUGH AN
UNPRECEDENTED AMOUNT OF
DEVELOPMENT RIGHT NOW.
THERE'S AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF
CONSTRUCTION IN THE CITY.
TRADES ARE PUSHED TO THEIR
LIMITS AS FAR AS MANPOWER AND SO
ON.
WE'RE STILL VERY MUCH IN A
LEARNING CURVE.
I THINK THE DEVELOPMENT INDUSTRY
WORKING WITH THE ONTARIO
BUILDING CODE AND MANUFACTURERS
IS WORKING TO GET BETTER AND
BETTER AND BETTER, BUT I DO
THINK, YOU KNOW, WE ARE SEEING
INCIDENCES OF CHALLENGES WITH
CONDOS GOING DOWN.
WE'RE SEEING BUILDERS USING
BETTER TECHNIQUES.
WE'RE ALSO LEARNING THINGS LIKE
DO WE REALLY NEED BALCONIES 50,
60, 70 STOREYS UP IN THE AIR.

Steve says WHAT'S THE ANSWER TO
THAT?

Chris says I WOULD SAY NO.
IF YOU LOOK AT MATURE CONDO
MARKETS LIKE NEW YORK CITY WHERE
PEOPLE HAVE BEEN LIVING IN
CONDOS FOR YEARS, YOU CAN LOOK
AT IT AND SEE THAT THE BUYERS
HAVE DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES ON
HOW TO LIVE, WHAT'S IMPORTANT IN
A CONDO AND SO ON.
I THINK WE HAVE A VERY ROBUST
CONDOMINIUM MARKET BUT I DO
THINK WE ARE STILL VERY MUCH
EARLY IN OUR STAGE OF
MATURITY...

Steve says YOU STARTED AS A
BRAND GUY OUT WEST, RIGHT?
YOU KNOW THE IMPORTANCE OF
BRAND.

Chris says ABSOLUTELY.

Steve says WHAT'S THE CONDO
BRAND IN THE CAPITAL CITY OF
ONTARIO TODAY?

Chris says HERE'S WHAT'S
INTERESTING.
WE DEVELOP ALL ACROSS NORTH
AMERICA.
I SPEND A LOT OF TIME IN THE
U.S. AND OTHER CITIES.
THE GLOBAL PERSPECTIVE IS THAT
TORONTO IS DOING A PRETTY DAMN
GOOD JOB AND THAT, YOU KNOW,
THERE'S AN AMAZING AMOUNT OF
STUFF HAPPENING.
WE HAVE, AS I SAID,
UNPRECEDENTED GROWTH AND THE
AMOUNT OF CONSTRUCTION IS
UNRIVALLED ACROSS NORTH AMERICA.

Steve says THAT WE KNOW.
I SAW YOU NODDING, WHEN HE SAID
WE'RE DOING A DAMN GOOD JOB, YOU
AGREE WITH THAT?

The caption changes to "Jennifer Keesmaat. City of Toronto."

Jennifer says I THINK
WE ARE DOING A DAMN GOOD JOB.
THERE'S A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT MORE
WE CAN DO AND NEED TO BE GOING.
I'D LIKE TO GO BACK TO WHAT MY
COLLEAGUES SAID.
WHEN YOU'RE GROWING QUICKLY ONE
OF THE CHALLENGES IS YOU CAN
HAVE A BIT OF A SKILL GAP.
THERE'S NOT A LOT OF TIME TO
IMPLEMENT NEW TRAINING PROGRAMS
AND TO SIT BACK AND FIGURE OUT
AND EVALUATE THE WORK THAT'S
BEING UNDERTAKEN.
ON ONE SIDE IT ACTUALLY PRESENTS
A RISK WHEN YOU'RE GROWING VERY,
VERY QUICKLY.
ON THE OTHER SIDE, WE HAVE
DEMONSTRATED THAT WE ARE
EXTREMELY ADAPTABLE IN THE
TORONTO CONTEXT, AND ONE OF THE
REASONS THAT YOU SAW THAT 14.5 percent
INCREASE IS PRECISELY BECAUSE OF
THE STRENGTH OF THE MARKET AND
THE REPUTATIONAL STRENGTH OF THE
CITY ON AN INTERNATIONAL SCALE
THAT, QUITE FRANKLY, IS JUST
CREATING KIND OF A PILE-ON,
WHERE WE'RE ATTRACTING MORE AND
MORE ATTENTION, RESULTING IN
MORE AND MORE DEMAND, AND
REALLY, WE HAVE THIS CHALLENGE
OF ENSURING THAT WE CAN KEEP UP
ON THE SUPPLY SIDE.

Steve says LET ME FOLLOW UP ON
THAT NOTION OF GROWING PAINS
THAT THE CITY IS EXPERIENCING
NOW.
AND TO THAT END, WE WANT TO PLAY
A SHORT CLIP, JUST WATCH THE
MONITORS HERE IN THE STUDIO,
THIS IS A 2015 DOCUMENTARY FROM
CBC.
ROLL IT PLEASE, SHELDON.

A clip plays on screen. A woman in her forties stands in a wrecked kitchen and points at a series of cabinets and appliances wrapped in plastic.

She says THIS IS MY THIRD ATTEMPT AT A
KITCHEN IN 13 YEARS.
IT WAS ALMOST COMPLETED.
THERE WAS A MASSIVE FLOOD IN MY
UNIT.
IT DESTROYED MY CABINETRY.

She walks into a bathroom and points at a wooden makeshift sink. The base is partially rotten.

She says WELL, THIS IS MY ONLY SINK, ONLY
FUNCTIONING SINK IN THIS UNIT,
SO IT SERVES AS MY BATHROOM
SINK, MY KITCHEN SINK, AND YOU
CAN SEE JUST THE FLOOD DAMAGE.
THERE'S BEEN FLOODS IN THIS ROOM
AS WELL FROM PIPES ABOVE ME.

Clips show other parts of the condo affected by humidity.

An announcer says WHILE THE UNIT IS CERTAINLY
IN THE WORST CONDITION, OTHERS
IN THE BUILDING HAVE FACED WATER
ISSUES TOO, BUT THIS WOMAN IS
THE ONLY ONE SUING HER CONDO
BOARD AND GOING PUBLIC.

The clip ends.

Steve says AUDREY, I THINK YOU
WERE IN THAT DOCUMENTARY,
WEREN'T YOU?

Audrey says I WAS.

Steve says TELL US, IS THAT AN
EXCEPTIONAL SITUATION WE SAW HERE?

The caption changes to "Audrey Loeb. Real Estate Lawyer."

Audrey says I THINK IT IS
AN EXCEPTIONAL SITUATION.
THERE ARE ALWAYS GOING TO BE
CONSTRUCTION DEFECTS OF ONE FORM
OR ANOTHER, WHETHER IT'S THE
QUALITY OF FINISHING OR THE
QUALITY OF BUILDING.
HERS IS REALLY EXTREME.

Steve says WHAT KINDS OF
COMPLAINTS AS A LAWYER DO YOU
TEND TO HEAR THEN?

Audrey says NOBODY GETS
WHAT THEY WERE SOLD.
IN OTHER WORDS, THE MARKETING IS
TERRIFIC.
THE ARRIVAL, NOT QUITE AS GOOD.

Steve says THOSE POSTERS AND
THOSE BOOKLETS ARE GORGEOUS,
AREN'T THEY?

Audrey says THOSE
RENDERINGS AND ALL THOSE PLANS
AND FLOWERS AND COFFEE ARE
WONDERFUL.
BUT THE REALITY IS, AS
CHRISTOPHER SAID, EVERYBODY IS
SO BUSY.
THE COMPLETE FINISH AND THE
QUALITY OF THE FINISH IS NOT
WHAT PEOPLE THOUGHT THEY WERE
GOING TO GET WHEN THEY WERE IN
THAT SALES OFFICE.

Steve says DO THEY UNDERSTAND
THE NOTION OF AN UPSKILLING GAP
THAT WE WERE REFERRING TO EARLIER?

The caption changes to "Audrey Loeb. Miller Thompson."

Audrey says YEAH.
I THINK PROBABLY IT'S MORE
PROBLEMATIC... EXCUSE ME... EVEN
AT THE HIGHER END OF THE MARKET.
AT THE HIGHER END OF THE MARKET,
PEOPLE REALLY FEEL THEY'RE GOING
TO GET THINGS IN A CERTAIN WAY
AND THERE'S A REAL MEASURE OF
DISAPPOINTMENT.
TORONTO HAS A HUGE INVESTMENT
COMPONENT IN ITS CONDOMINIUM
CORPORATIONS.
THEY ARE PROBABLY NOT AS FUSSY
ABOUT THE FINISHES.
SO THERE'S A FINISHES ISSUE AND
THE WAY IT'S DONE.
THERE'S ALSO THE REQUIREMENT,
THE PURCHASERS MOVE INTO THE
BUILDING BEFORE THEY'RE REALLY
FINISHED.
THAT ALSO CREATES A LEVEL OF
DISCOMFORT AND ANXIETY FOR
PEOPLE.

Steve says SURE.
CHIEF PLANNER, I WANT TO READ
SOME OF YOUR WORDS BACK TO YOU.
WE HAVE BEEN IN A CATCH-22 FOR
QUITE SOME TIME OF BEING VERY
REACTIVE AND IN FACT LETTING THE
DEVELOPMENT INDUSTRY SET THE
STANDARD.
YOU SAID THAT A COUPLE YEARS
AGO.
WHO IS SETTING THE STANDARDS TWO
YEARS LATER?

Jennifer says WELL,
IT'S IMPORTANT NOT TO TAKE THAT
QUOTE OUT OF CONTEXT.

Steve says THAT'S WHAT WE DO.
THAT'S WHAT WE DO IN JOURNALISM.

Jennifer says THAT'S
WHAT YOU DO AND I'M GOING TO
CALL YOU OUT ON IT.
THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT PIECES
HERE.
ONE IS AROUND THE PLANNING SIDE
IN THE BUILT FORM SIDE AND WHERE
WE'RE PUTTING NEW GROWTH AND THE
OTHER THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
TODAY IS THE QUALITY OF THE
DEVELOPMENT WHICH IS REGULATED
BY THE BUILDING CODE.
I DO THINK WE'VE BEEN BACK ON
OUR HEELS IN TERMS OF BEING IN A
SITUATION WHERE THE INDUSTRY HAS
BEEN DRIVING THE MARKET.
IN SOME WAYS THAT'S A GOOD THING
BECAUSE WE'VE HAD AN AGGRESSIVE
INDUSTRY RIGHT AT THE MOMENT
WHERE WE'VE NEEDED TO BUILD AS
MUCH HOUSING AS POSSIBLE, GOING
AGAIN TO THAT SUPPLY AND DEMAND
CHALLENGE WE SEE.
THE DEMAND IS SIMPLY FAR
EXCEEDING ANYONE'S EXPECTATIONS.
SO ON THE PLANNING SIDE I THINK
ONE OF OUR CHALLENGES IS,
WHEREAS WE WERE BULLISH WITH
RESPECT TO THE KIND OF GROWTH WE
EXPECTED TO SEE RIGHT IN THE
CORE OF THE CITY, WE STILL
UNDERESTIMATED.
AND IN LIGHT OF WHAT'S HAPPENING
SOUTH OF THE BORDER, THE
INTEREST WE'RE SEEING IN OUR
CITY RIGHT NOW, I CAN TELL YOU
IN THE PAST FEW MONTHS, HAS GONE
THROUGH THE ROOF.
SO AGAIN WE'VE HAD A GLOBAL
EVENT THAT IS TRANSFORMING THE
POSITIONING OF THE CITY OF
TORONTO AND IT'S EVEN FURTHER
GOING TO SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASE
DEMAND.
SO, AGAIN, WE'RE BACK ON OUR
HEELS GOING WAIT A MINUTE.
WE THOUGHT THINGS WERE HOT A
YEAR AGO.
I CAN TELL YOU A YEAR FROM NOW,
IT'S JUST ESCALATING.
AND SO ON THE PLANNING SIDE,
THAT'S ONE ISSUE.
ON THE OTHER SIDE... AND THIS
DOES RELATE TO THE LABOUR
MARKET... YOU GET A FUSSIER
CONSUMER THAT IS GOING TO BE
MORE SENSITIVE TO THE ALIGNMENT
BETWEEN THE RENDERINGS AND WHAT
THEY PURCHASE WHEN YOU HAVE
OVERSUPPLY.
WHEN YOU HAVE LESS SUPPLY, YOU
HAVE A CONSUMER WHO IS ACTUALLY
MORE DESPERATE TO GET INTO THEIR
HOUSING.

Steve says AND NOT SO FUSSY.

Jennifer says AND NOT
AS FUSSY.
I DO THINK THAT THERE IS A
CHALLENGE HERE IN TERMS OF
BUILDING UP A MORE SOPHISTICATED
BUYER IN THE CONDO MARKET THAT
CAN ACTUALLY READ THROUGH...
THAT UNDERSTANDS THE RENDERING
AND CAN HOLD THE DEVELOPMENT
INDUSTRY MORE ACCOUNTABLE.
I ALSO THINK THERE'S A
REGULATORY ROLE.
THIS IS SOMETHING WE COMPLAIN
ABOUT A LOT.
I DON'T TWEET OUT VERY MANY
RENDERINGS THAT DEVELOPERS
PRODUCE BECAUSE OFTEN WE SEE
THROUGH THEM.
WE KNOW THAT THOSE ARE NOT AN
ACCURATE REPRESENTATION OF WHAT
THAT BUILDING IS GOING TO LOOK
LIKE, AND THAT'S A PROBLEM.

Steve says WHO IS SETTING THE
STANDARDS IN YOUR VIEW, PAUL,
TWO YEARS AFTER CHIEF PLANNER
JENNIFER KEESMAAT UTTERED
WHATEVER THAT EXPRESSION IS, PUT
INTO CONTEXT?

Paul says FROM MY
PERSPECTIVE IN LIGHT OF SOME OF
THE INCIDENTS YOU'VE MENTIONED,
FALLING GLASS AND SOME OF THE
INCIDENTS WITH RESPECT TO WATER
LEAKAGE INCIDENTS IN CONDOS, THE
BUILDING CODE HAS REALLY EVOLVED
AND THERE HAVE BEEN NEW
SUPPLEMENTARY STANDARDS WHICH
HAVE BEEN DEVELOPED TO ADDRESS
SOME OF THESE ISSUES, SO THE
BUILDING CODE IS ACTUALLY AN
EVER-EVOLVING DOCUMENT AND IT
WORKS WITH INDUSTRY AND THE PACE
OF CONSTRUCTION TO TRY AND KEEP
UP WITH DIFFERENT TECHNOLOGIES
AND NEW CONSTRUCTION METHODS
WHICH ARE COMING TO THE
MARKETPLACE.

Steve says CHRIS... GO AHEAD.

Chris says I WAS GOING TO
SAY I THINK THERE'S AN OVERALL
MATURITY THAT'S HAPPENING WITHIN
THE INDUSTRY AND THAT HAPPENS
THROUGHOUT ALL ASPECTS OF IT.
THE BUILDING CODE, YES, IS
CONTINUOUSLY BEING LOOKED AT AND
UPDATED TO ENSURE THAT BUILDINGS
ARE BETTER BUILT AND
CONSTRUCTION GETS BETTER.
THE PLANNING DEPARTMENT IS
HAVING A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF
EXACTLY WHAT THESE BUILDINGS ARE
GOING TO BE LIKE WHEN THEY'RE
FINISHED.
THE CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY, AND
WE'RE A CONSTRUCTER, NOT JUST A
DEVELOPER, WE'RE UNDERSTANDING
THESE BUILDINGS BETTER.
THESE ARE TRULY COMMERCIAL
BUILDINGS WE'RE BUILDING.
ONE OF THE CHALLENGES YOU HAVE
IN THIS MARKET, BECAUSE IT'S A
RELATIVELY IMMATURE CONDO
MARKET, YOU HAVE HOME BUILDERS
THAT BECAME CONDO BUILDERS.
IT IS NOT 50 HOMES PILED ONE ON
TOP OF AN ANOTHER.
IT'S MORE LIKE AN OFFICE TOWER,
IT'S COMMERCIAL CONSTRUCTION AS
OPPOSED TO RESIDENTIAL
CONSTRUCTION.
THAT'S HAPPENED.
IN ADDITION TO THAT THE
PURCHASERS ARE BECOMING MORE
MATURE.
THE PURCHASERS ARE COMING INTO
NEXT GENERATION.
WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS NOT KIDS
BUYING CONDOS THEIR PARENTS
BOUGHT.
PEOPLE ARE ON THEIR THIRD CONDO,
FOURTH CONDO, FIFTH CONDO, SO
THEY HAVE A BETTER UNDERSTANDING
OF WHAT EXACTLY IT IS THEY'RE
BUYING AND WHAT THEY WANT TO
BUY.
LASTLY WHAT'S HAPPENING THROUGH
THIS MATURITY, AND I THINK THIS
IS PARTIALLY THE CITY AND US
DEVELOPERS WORKING TOGETHER, IS
WE'RE ALSO STARTING TO SHORTEN
THE TIME.
I THINK WE'VE COME TO THE
REALIZATION THAT FROM A
MARKETING AND SALES PERSPECTIVE
TO AN ACTUAL DELIVERY
PERSPECTIVE AND WE'RE SEEING IT
IN HOUSING TOO, WE'RE MAKING A
CONCERTED EFFORT, CERTAINLY IN
OUR COMPANY WE ARE, TO SHORTEN
THAT GAP.
A LOT OF THE CHALLENGE YOU HAD
IN THE MARKETPLACE IS YOU
LITERALLY HAD CONDOS BEING SOLD
FIVE, SIX, SEVEN YEARS AGO THAT
ARE FINALLY NOW BEING DELIVERED
TO THIS DAY.
WHEN YOU HAVE THAT LENGTH OF
TIME BETWEEN THE PURCHASE AND
THE ACTUAL DELIVERY, YOU'RE SURE
TO HAVE, YOU KNOW, CHANGES,
WHETHER IT'S SUPPLIERS, BUILDING
CODES, ET CETERA.
SO THINGS EVOLVE.
I THINK WE NEED TO SHORTEN THAT
PERIOD.

Audrey says I WANT TO GO
BACK TO SOMETHING JENNIFER SAID.
I'VE BEEN PRACTISING CONDOMINIUM
LAW FOR A VERY LONG TIME AND I
STARTED WITH THE GOVERNMENT AND
I WAS PART OF THE FIRST
RECOMMENDATIONS THAT WERE MADE
TO THE GOVERNMENT ON HOW TO
IMPROVE THE CONDOMINIUM ACT, AND
ONE OF THOSE WAS TO HAVE AN
ENTITY THAT OVERSAW THE
DEVELOPMENT OF CONDOMINIUMS,
JUST LIKE THEY HAVE IN OTHER
JURISDICTIONS IN THE UNITED
STATES AND IN B.C.

Steve says WHAT KIND OF ENTITY?

Audrey says IT'S AN ENTITY
THAT OVERSEES HOW THE DEVELOPER
SELLS THE UNITS TO THE
PURCHASERS.
SOMEBODY WHO LOOKS AT THE CONDO
DOCS AND MAKE SURE THAT THE
CONDO DOCS ARE GOING TO WORK IN
THE LONG RUN FOR THE PURCHASER.
WE HAVE AN INTERESTING SITUATION
IN ONTARIO AND IN MOST OF
CANADA, AND THAT IS, WE STARTED
CONDOMINIUMS IN ONTARIO TO
ACCOMMODATE LOW INCOME HOUSING.
OKAY?
NOT A GOOD IDEA.
THAT WAS THE REASON WE FIRST
DEVELOPED THEM BACK IN 1967.
THEY WERE SIMPLE.
THEY WERE SINGLE BUILDINGS
STANDING IN THE GARDEN, BIG
GARDEN.
OVER THE YEARS, THEY HAVE
EVOLVED ENORMOUSLY.
THE QUANTITY OF THE PAPERWORK
THAT WE GET WHEN WE REPRESENT A
CONDOMINIUM CORPORATION IS LIKE
THIS AND THEY HAND THAT TO A
PURCHASER AND SAY, GO GET IT...
GO FIGURE IT OUT.
AND THE PURCHASER TAKES A LOOK
AT IT AND SAYS, "I'LL BUY IT."
OKAY?
IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU GIVE
THE PURCHASERS, THEY CAN'T READ
IT.
PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO DO CONDO
PURCHASES FROM DEVELOPERS
BECAUSE THE DISCLOSURE IS SO
ENORMOUS, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO GET
THROUGH, AND ALL THE DIFFERENT
ENTITIES THAT SHARE FACILITIES,
LIKE PARKING GARAGES AND
COMMERCIAL AND RETAIL AND THEN
RESIDENTIAL... THEY'RE ALL BOUND
BY THESE ENORMOUSLY COMPLICATED
COST-SHARING AGREEMENTS THAT ARE
USUALLY OVERLY BURDENSOME ON THE
CONDOMINIUM OWNERS.

Steve says PAUL, ONE OF THE
EXPLANATIONS WE HEAR FOR WHY...
OKAY, JENNIFER SAID MARKET, YOU
KNOW, EXPLOSIVE AS IT IS RIGHT
NOW, MAYBE PEOPLE AREN'T THAT
FUSSY, THEY ARE LESS FUSSY RIGHT
NOW THAN THEY OTHERWISE MIGHT
BE.
THE OTHER REASON IS THE PEOPLE
WHO BUY THE UNITS ARE VERY OFTEN
NOT THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THE
UNITS.
HOW MUCH OF A FACTOR IS THAT?

The caption changes to "Paul De Berardis, @_RESCON."
Then, it changes again to "Foreign entanglements."

Paul says THAT MAY
BE A FACTOR IN CONSIDERATION FOR
THE OCCUPANCY INSPECTION WHEN
THESE HOME OWNERS ARE REQUIRED
TO POINT OUT ANY ISSUES THAT
THEY MAY NOTICE AND REPORT TO
THE BUILDER FOR THEM TO CORRECT
THE ISSUES.
SO IF IT'S NOT AN END USER,
THERE MAY BE LESS ACCOUNTABILITY
ON BEHALF OF THE PURCHASER AS TO
HIGHLIGHTING SOME OF THESE
ISSUES WHICH MAY NEED TO BE
ADDRESSED BY THE BUILDER.
I DO THINK AN END USER WOULD
HAVE MORE CAREFUL ATTENTION TO
DETAIL WHEN LOOKING AT SOME OF
THESE PRE-OCCUPANCY INSPECTION
CONSIDERATIONS.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: @theagenda, TVO.org, Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, Podcasts."

Steve says JENNIFER, THE
SUSPICION IS THAT THERE WILL BE,
IN THE FUTURE, EVEN MORE FOREIGN
OFFSHORE BUYERS FOR TORONTO'S
CONDOMINIUM MARKET, AND
THEREFORE THERE WILL BE EVEN
MORE PEOPLE WHO ARE OWNING THESE
UNITS AND NOT LIVING IN THEM,
AND THEREFORE THE SUSPICION IS,
THINGS WILL BE EVEN SHODDIER
GOING FORWARD.
IS THAT A REASONABLE ASSUMPTION?

The caption changes to "Jennifer Keesmaat, @jen_keesmaat."

Jennifer says WELL,
NO, THERE ARE A FEW THINGS IN
THERE THAT NEED TO BE UNPACKED,
AND THE FIRST IS, WE DON'T HAVE
A SIGNIFICANT PORTION OF FOREIGN
OWNERS TODAY, ACCORDING TO CMHC.
WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT
VANCOUVER, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
TORONTO.
WE IN FACT HAVE... WE HAVE A LOT
OF INVESTORS THAT ARE ACTUALLY
LOCAL INVESTORS.
THEY'RE INVESTORS THAT HAVE
ACTUALLY COME FROM ONTARIO AND
FROM CANADA WHO ARE... THEY'RE A
SIGNIFICANT PORTION OF THE
INVESTOR MARKET, AND ONE OF THE
THINGS THAT WE'VE SEEN IN MANY
OF OUR BUILDINGS... CHRIS CAN
MAYBE VERIFY OR SPEAK TO THIS.
THERE'S AN INVESTOR WHO BUYS THE
UNIT AND WITHIN FIVE YEARS IT
BECOMES OWNER OCCUPIED EITHER BY
THE PERSON WHO PURCHASED IT,
THIS IS WHAT I'VE HEARD
ANECDOTALLY IN THE INDUSTRY, OR
IT GETS SOLD TO AN OWNER WHO
THEN OCCUPIES THAT BUILDING.
THERE'S ANOTHER IMPORTANT PIECE
TO THIS... SO I THINK THE
FOREIGN OWNERSHIP PIECE, LET'S
KEEP THAT IN PERSPECTIVE.
IF IT DOES BECOME AN ISSUE,
THERE'S NO REASON WHY IT THEN
CAN'T BECOME REGULATED, LIKE IN
THE VANCOUVER CONTEXT, AND THAT
AGAIN WOULD MITIGATE THE AMOUNT
OF FOREIGN OWNERSHIP IN OUR
CITY.
THAT'S ACTUALLY NOT OUR ISSUE.
THAT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT WE
NEED TO BE FOCUSING ON TODAY AND
I THINK IT'S A BIT OF A RED
HERRING TO BE TALKING ABOUT THAT
IN THE TORONTO CONTEXT.
ANOTHER IMPORTANT PART OF THIS
CONVERSATION IS THAT INVESTOR
UNITS HAVE BEEN ACTING DE FACTO
AS OUR RENTAL MARKET.
WE'VE GONE THROUGH A SIGNIFICANT
PERIOD OF TIME WHERE WE HAVEN'T
BEEN BUILDING PURPOSE-BUILT
RENTAL AND THAT'S ACTUALLY A
VERY IMPORTANT COMPONENT OF OUR
MARKET.
LET'S NOT DEMONIZE INVESTORS
BUYING UNITS BECAUSE IT'S
ACTUALLY BEEN A VERY GOOD THING.

Steve says WE NEED TENANTS AND
WE NEED PLACES FOR TENANTS.

Jennifer says WE NEED
PLACES FOR TENANTS.
THERE'S ANOTHER IMPORTANT TREND
THAT'S EMERGING RIGHT NOW, IT'S
REALLY BEEN OVER THE PAST FOUR
OR FIVE YEARS, WHICH IS A BIG,
BIG SHIFT... IT'S IN PART
BECAUSE OF LOW INTEREST RATES,
IT'S IN PART BECAUSE OF
CONFIDENCE IN THE CITY, IT'S IN
PART BECAUSE OF DEMAND.
WE ARE SEEING A SIGNIFICANT
NUMBER OF PURPOSE-BUILT RENTALS
COMING ON THE MARKET.
NEW BUILDINGS THAT ARE ENTIRELY
RENTAL.
AND WHAT'S SO EXCITING ABOUT
THIS IS THAT WE'RE FINALLY
BUILDING OUT NEW RENTAL STOCK IN
OUR CITY AFTER DECADES AND
DECADES OF NOT BUILDING ANY NEW
RENTALS.
THAT'S THE FIRST PART.
THE SECOND IS, THERE'S AN
INHERENT BUILT-IN INCENTIVE FOR
THE DEVELOPER IF THEY'RE HOLDING
ONTO THE ASSET, THEY'RE NOT
SELLING IT OFF, THEY'RE NOT IN
AND OUT.
THEY'RE HOLDING ONTO THE ASSET.
THERE'S AN INHERENT DRIVER TO
BUILD A BETTER ASSET.
YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO OWN IT
LONG TERM.

Steve says LET ME PUT THAT TO
CHRIS.
YOUR COMPANY TRIES TO RESTRICT
MULTIPLE UNIT SALES?

Chris says WE DO.
BASICALLY, AND I WOULDN'T
CLASSIFY IT AS FOREIGN
INVESTORS.
WE LOOK AT THEM AS INVESTORS.
WE'RE NOT AS CONCERNED AS TO
WHERE THEY COME FROM.
WHAT WE DON'T WANT IS WE DON'T
WANT SINGLE OWNERS OWNING
MULTIPLE UNITS IN OUR BUILDING.
WE DON'T THINK THAT'S HEALTHY
FOR THE BUILDING.

Steve says BECAUSE...

Chris says IF YOU GET
SOMEONE BUYING A BLOCK OF UNITS,
10, 20, 30 UNITS, THEY HAVE TOO
MUCH CONTROL OVER A BUILDING...
A CONDO CORP. IS DESIGNED EACH
ONE OF US OWNS A UNIT, WE MAKE
DECISIONS TOGETHER AND ELECT A
BOARD AND IT'S DEMOCRATIC.
IF YOU HAVE BIG VOTER BLOCKS
WITHIN A BUILDING, IT CAN SKEW
THE WAY THAT BUILDING OPERATES.
ONE OF THE THINGS WE DID THAT I
STARTED 3 YEARS AGO IS WE
ACTUALLY STARTED OUR OWN
PROPERTY DEVELOPMENT DIVISION.
ONE OF THE THINGS WE LEARNED,
AND AGAIN IT'S THIS IDEA OF
MATURITY, IS THAT THE
BUILDINGS... YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT
ABOUT THE UNITS THEMSELVES.
IT'S REALLY UNDERSTANDING HOW
THE BUILDING FUNCTIONS ONCE IT'S
FULL OF PEOPLE AND HOW THESE
AMENITIES AND SHARED AREAS AND
SHARED SERVICES WORK AND YOU
CAN'T UNDERSTAND THAT AS A
CONSTRUCTER UNLESS YOU'RE
MANAGING THE BUILDING AFTER THE
FACT.
WE BELIEVE OUR BUILDINGS ARE
VERY WELL-BUILT.
WE PUT OUR NAME BEHIND OUR BRAND
AND OUR PRODUCT, AND BECAUSE OF
THAT, WE'RE WILLING TO TAKE
CONTROL OF THE BUILDING, MANAGE
THE BUILDING.
NOW, THE CONDO CORP. CAN CHOOSE
TO DISMISS US AT ANY TIME.
WE HAVE NOT HAD THAT HAPPEN.

Steve says CAN WE HAVE A FOR
INSTANCE.
YOU HAVE YONGE AND BLOOR.
HOW MANY STOREYS?

Chris says APPROXIMATELY 78.

Steve says I HAVE TO SAY WHEN I
GO BY IT IT'S AN AMAZING LOOKING
BUILDING.

Chris says THANK YOU.

Steve says IS IT ALL SOLD OUT?

Chris says BASICALLY.
EXCEPT FOR THE PENTHOUSES.

Steve says WHAT DO THEY GO FOR?

Chris says WE HAVEN'T
RELEASED THEM SO I HAVEN'T
PRICED THEM YET.

Steve says GOING TO BE MORE
THAN 437,000 dollars.

Chris says A LITTLE BIT
MORE.
THEY WILL BE MILLIONS AND
MILLIONS.

Steve says A MILLION AND A
HALF, TWO MILLION?

Chris says THEY'LL FAR
EXCEED THAT.

Steve says WHAT ARE WE LOOKING
AT, AUDREY?

Audrey says TEN MILLION,
BASED ON SIZE?

Chris says WE HAVE FOUR,
ONE IN EACH CORNER, AND PROBABLY
IN THAT 6 TO 8 MILLION-DOLLAR
RANGE PER UNIT.

Steve says CAN THE PERSON
PURCHASING CAN BE ASSURED THEIR
WALLS WILL BE THICK AND NOT HEAR
THE NEIGHBOURS, ASSURED THAT THE
SINKS LOOK GOOD.

The caption changes to "Audrey Loeb, @AudreyLoeb."
Then, it changes again to "Buyer beware."

Audrey says I WANT TO
SPEAK TO THAT.
THE NEW HOME WARRANTY PROGRAM
REALLY DID IMPROVE THE QUALITY
OF CONSTRUCTION IN ONTARIO.
WE NO LONGER COULD RELY ON CITY
BUILDING INSPECTORS TO KEEP AN
EYE ON WHAT WAS GOING ON, SO THE
WARRANTY PROGRAM REQUIRED THAT
EVERY BUILDER HAVE DURING THE
COURSE OF CONSTRUCTION
ENGINEERING REPORTS WHICH ARE
FILED WITH TARION.
SO THE FALLING GLASS AND THE
THINGS THAT YOU GET LIKE THAT,
THEY REALLY ARE EXCEPTIONAL.
THERE ARE ALWAYS GOING TO BE
DEFECTS AND FORTUNATELY MOST OF
THEM GET FIXED.
WHAT'S REALLY PROBLEMATIC ARE
THE AFTER-THINGS.
SO NOT SO MUCH THE CONSTRUCTION
BUT THE NOISE, THE SMELLS.
SO WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE
BUILDING CODE, THE NOISES AND
THE SMELLS ARE TWO OF THE MOST
SIGNIFICANT PROBLEMS THAT ARE
EXPERIENCED IN CONDOMINIUM
CORPORATIONS BECAUSE THE
STANDARD OF DEVELOPMENT TO
PROTECT YOU AGAINST YOUR
NEIGHBOURS' NOISE IN THE
BUILDING CODE ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH,
THE BUILDING CODE IS BELOW WHERE
IT SHOULD BE.

Steve says SO THE WALLS ARE TOO THIN.

Audrey says IN A LOT OF
BUILDINGS THE WALLS ARE TOO THIN
AND THEY'RE TOO POROUS, SO THE
SMOKE AND OTHER THINGS... AND
THESE ARE THE KINDS OF THINGS
THAT UPSET PEOPLE.
THAT AND THE FACT THAT THEIR
KITCHEN CUPBOARDS DON'T FIT THE
WALL SPACE.
THOSE ARE ALL FIXABLE.
THE SMOKING AND THE NOISE, NOT
SO EASY TO FIX.

Steve says DO YOU HAVE A SENSE
OF WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE
CONDOMINIUMS IN TORONTO WOULD BE
SUB STANDARD AS YOU'VE JUST
DESCRIBED?

Audrey says I DON'T HAVE A
CLUE.
WE'RE SEEING IT MORE IN NEWER
BUILDINGS THAN WE ARE IN THE
OLDER BUILDINGS, OKAY?
THE SMOKE FILTRATION IS ACROSS
THE BOARD.
WE ACTUALLY HAVE CONDOS NOW WHO
ARE TRYING TO GO COMPLETELY NO
SMOKING INCLUDING INSIDE THE
UNITS BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE SO
SENSITIVE TO SMOKE AND IT'S SO
PROBLEMATIC.
BUT THAT'S A CONSTRUCTION ISSUE,
IN MY VIEW.

Chris says I THINK WE HAVE
TO BE CAREFUL BECAUSE YOU USED
THE WORD SUB STANDARD, STEVE,
AND I DON'T THINK THAT'S FAIR.
WHAT YOU NEED TO RECOGNIZE IS
THAT THE ONTARIO BUILDING CODE,
LIKE MANY REGULATIONS, SIMILAR
TO, YOU KNOW, AUTOMOBILE
EMISSION REGULATIONS AND SO ON,
WE ARE A REGULATED INDUSTRY AND
THAT'S WHAT THE CODE DOES.
THE CODE SETS A MINIMUM
STANDARD.
THE CODE IS NOT... THE DEVELOPER
MUST MEET THAT MINIMUM STANDARD.
WE AS A DEVELOPER, WE LOOK TO
EXCEED THOSE STANDARDS.

Steve says THE MINIMUM STANDARD
STILL TOO SUB STANDARD...

Chris says I THINK WHAT
HAPPENS IS, IF YOU'RE BUILDING A
QUALITY BUILDING, YOU SHOULD BE
LOOKING TO EXCEED THOSE BUILDING
CODE STANDARDS.
IF THE BUILDING CODE NEEDS TO BE
IMPROVED AND UPDATED, THAT'S
SOMETHING WE SHOULD CERTAINLY
CONTINUE TO LOOK AT, BUT BY NO
MEANS SHOULD ANY DEVELOPER OR
CONSTRUCTOR LOOK TO THE BUILDING
CODE TO SAY AS LONG AS I MAKE
CODE, I'M OKAY.

Steve says SOME DO DO THAT.

Chris says SOME DO.
BUT SIMILARLY SPEAKING IN THE
AUTOMOBILE INDUSTRY, NOT EVERY
CAR IS THE SAME.

Steve says NO, I GET YOU.

Audrey says EVERY
AGREEMENT OF PURCHASE AND SALE
INCLUDES A PROVISION THAT SAYS THAT THE DEVELOPER DOESN'T
WARRANT ANYTHING BEYOND THE
BUILDING CODE, AND THAT'S NOT
GOOD ENOUGH.
YOU CAN'T STICK HUNDREDS OF
PEOPLE LIVING TOGETHER AND JUST
BUILD BUILDING CODE.
THE BUILDING CODE NEEDS TO
IMPROVE.
YOU DON'T WANT THE MINIMUM
STANDARD IN THE BUILDING CODE.
YOU WANT SOMETHING THAT'S GOING
TO MAKE LIFE, WHEN PEOPLE MOVE
INTO CONDOMINIUM CORPORATIONS,
LESS ANXIOUS.

Steve says THAT'S A PROVINCIAL
STANDARD YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?

Audrey says IT IS.

Steve says I WANT TO GET PAUL
IN ON THIS AS WELL.
WHAT PERCENTAGE WOULD YOU
ESTIMATE THE NUMBER OF
CONDOMINIUM UNITS IN THIS
BUILDING ARE... OKAY, YOU DON'T
LIKE THE WORD "SUB STANDARD."
NOT UP TO...

Paul says MINIMUM STANDARD.

Steve says BUILT TO MINIMUM
STANDARD, OKAY.

Paul says I DON'T
THINK THERE'S ANY DETAILS ON
WHICH BUILDINGS ARE BUILT TO
EXCEED THE BUILDING CODE AND
WHICH ARE ONLY IN CONFORMANCE TO
THE BUILDING CODE.
ONE THING I WOULD LIKE TO ADD
WITH RESPECT TO THE NOISE ISSUE,
THAT IS ACKNOWLEDGED AS A COMMON
COMPLAINT IN ALL FORMS OF
ATTACHED OR MULTI-UNIT BUILDING
CONSTRUCTION AND ALSO AN ISSUE
WHICH AFFECTS THE LOW-RISE
SECTOR AS WELL, ANYTHING FROM
SEMIS AND TOWNHOMES.
THERE ARE ALSO NOISE COMPLAINTS
BETWEEN UNITS.
SO I THINK IT'S ALSO A LIFESTYLE
CHOICE WHICH RESIDENTS NEED TO
BECOME ACCUSTOMED TO IN THE FACT
THAT YOU DO HAVE NEIGHBOURS ON
EITHER SIDE OF YOU, POTENTIALLY
ABOVE AND BELOW YOU, SO YOU DO
HAVE TO BE MINDFUL OF YOUR
NEIGHBOURS WITH RESPECT TO THE
NOISE YOU MAY GENERATE.

Steve says WHICH YOU WOULD IF
YOU WERE THE OWNER AND OCCUPANT,
WHICH YOU MIGHT BE LESS INCLINED
TO BE IF YOU WERE RUNNING AN
Airbnb THERE AND SOMEBODY WAS
THERE FOR A FEW DAYS, WOULD YOU SAY?

Paul says WITH
RESPECT TO THAT, THE BUILDING
CODE HAS ACKNOWLEDGED THAT THERE
ARE, AGAIN, ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT
WITH RESPECT TO NOISE
TRANSMISSION.
SO THE NEXT ITERATION OF THE
BUILDING CODE IS CURRENTLY
REVIEWING PROPOSALS TO ADD NEW
METRICS TO ADD FURTHER SOUND
DAMPENING PROTOCOLS.

Steve says WE ARE INTO THE HOME
STRETCH HERE, FRIENDS, SO
LET'S... JENNIFER, LET ME PUT
THIS ON THE TABLE HERE.
YOU SAID: IT'S TIME TO HIT THE
PAUSE BUTTON ON DEVELOPMENT
ALONG YONGE STREET, LONGEST
STREET IN THE COUNTRY.
WHAT'S THE REASONING BEHIND THAT?

The caption changes to "Looking up and away."

Jennifer says I DIDN'T
ACTUALLY SAY THE PAUSE BUTTON ON
YONGE STREET.
I THINK THAT WAS THE HEADLINE
THAT THE NEWSPAPER INTERPRETED
WHAT I SAID.
I DO THINK THAT ONE OF THE
CHALLENGES WE FACE IN CERTAIN
AREAS OF THE CITY THAT WE NEED
TO BE DIGGING DEEP INTO IS THAT
IN SOME AREAS WE ARE GROWING SO
QUICKLY AND WE ARE ADDING SO
MUCH GROWTH BEYOND WHAT WE
EXPECTED THAT WE HAVE VERY REAL
INFRASTRUCTURE DEFICITS, AND
WHAT I'M CONCERNED ABOUT IS IT'S
NO GOOD IF YOU JUST BUILD A
BUILDING BUT YOU DON'T BUILD THE
COMMUNITY AROUND IT.
SO THIS IS LESS ABOUT THE
CONSTRUCTION OF A BUILDING AND
MORE ABOUT THE COMMUNITY AND THE
NEIGHBOURHOOD AND THE
INFRASTRUCTURE NEEDS, THE
TRANSIT, THE SCHOOLS, THE
PARKS... ALL OF THE COMPONENTS
THAT ENSURE THAT OVER THE LONG
TERM, THIS IS ACTUALLY GOING TO
BE A GREAT PLACE THAT HAS
RESILIENCE AND IS SUSTAINABLE.

Steve says YOU HAD IT WITHOUT
WITH DAVID MIRVISH OVER THE
THREE TOWERS HE WANTED TO BUILD
DOWNTOWN.

Jennifer says ABSOLUTELY.
ONE OF THE BIG ISSUES WAS NOT
ONLY A SIGNIFICANT ISSUE AROUND
HERITAGE BUT WAS ABOUT OPEN
SPACE, ABOUT VIEWS AND
LIVEABILITY, COMMUNITY AMENITY
SPACE.
WE ARE AT GREAT RISK IF WE THINK
JUST BUILDING BUILDINGS IS
ENOUGH.
WE ACTUALLY HAVE TO CREATE THE
FABRIC OF THE CITY, AND WE HAVE
TO MAKE SURE WE'RE INVESTING IN
THE FABRIC OF THE CITY AND NOT
JUST DOING THE BUILDING PART,
AND I BELIEVE THAT'S A RISK THAT
WE OUGHT TO... WE CAN'T PAUSE
THE INDUSTRY AND WE SHOULDN'T
PAUSE THE INDUSTRY, BUT WE
ACTUALLY HAVE TO PAUSE AND BE
CONSCIOUS THAT WE'RE WEAVING
TOGETHER ALL OF THE COMPONENTS
THAT WILL RESULT IN CREATING A
GREAT CITY.

Steve says CHRIS, DO YOU WANT
TO FOLLOW UP ON THAT?

Chris says I DO.
I THINK JENNIFER IS ACTUALLY
VERY RIGHT IN THIS MATTER AND WE
AGREE WITH RESPECT TO THE FACT
THAT INFRASTRUCTURE IS EXTREMELY
IMPORTANT AND, YOU KNOW, THERE
ARE TWO THINGS, BECAUSE I'M
GOING TO GO BACK SLIGHTLY TO
ANOTHER POINT.
YOU KNOW, WE TALKED ABOUT THE
IDEA OF THICKER WALLS AND BETTER
SOUND AND ALL OF THIS STUFF.
PART OF THAT IS A MATURITY OF
NOT JUST THE MARKET AND THE
BUILDING CODE BUT ALSO THE
BUYER.
SO 25, 30 YEARS AGO WHEN WE USED
TO BUY CARS, WE WORRIED ABOUT
WHAT COLOUR IT WAS AND HOW FANCY
THE LEATHER WAS.
TODAY WE THINK ABOUT A CAR AS
THE MAINTENANCE, THE FOUR-WHEEL
DRIVE, THE GAS EFFICIENCY... WE
THINK ABOUT ALL THESE TECHNICAL
THINGS AND PERFORMANCE THINGS.
THE SAME THING IS GOING TO
HAPPEN WITH CONDOS AND HOUSING.

The caption changes to "Producer: Wodek Szemberg, @wodekszemberg; Student Intern: Lauren Malyk."

Steve says GREAT GULF GETS THE
LAST WORD.
I WANT TO THANK EVERYBODY FOR
COMING ON THE PROGRAM, THERE'S
CHIEF PLANNER FOR THE CITY OF
TORONTO, JENNIFER KEESMAAT, AND
THANKS AS WELL TO PAUL
De BERARDIS, RESIDENTIAL
CONSTRUCTION COUNCIL OF ONTARIO...
AUDREY LOEB, THE ASSOCIATE
COUNSEL FROM MILLER THOMPSON
LLP, AND CHRIS WEIN, PRESIDENT
GREAT GULF.
GOOD TO HAVE YOU ALL ON TVO
TONIGHT, THANKS.

Watch: Faulty Towers