Transcript: The Truth About Trauma | Oct 27, 2016

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, light gray shirt, and checkered brown tie.

A caption on screen reads "The truth about trauma. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says VICTIMS OF VIOLENT
CRIME OFTEN EXPERIENCE ATTACKS
IN SIMILAR WAYS WITH PARALYSIS -
PHYSICAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL - AND
EVEN DISSOCIATIVE STATES.
IT CAN MAKE IT VERY HARD TO
RECOUNT THEIR STORY IN THE KIND
OF LINEAR AND REASONED FASHION
THAT THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM
DEMANDS.
Dr. LORI HASKELL IS A CLINICAL
PSYCHOLOGIST AND ASSISTANT
PROFESSOR IN THE DEPARTMENT OF
PSYCHIATRY AT THE UNIVERSITY OF
TORONTO, AND SHE JOINS US NOW FOR MORE.

Lori is in her fifties, with short reddish-brown hair. She's wearing a black blazer over a white shirt, and a golden chain necklace.

Steve continues NICE TO HAVE YOU HERE.

Lori says THANK YOU, STEVE.

Steve says LET'S START WITH THAT.
WHAT ARE THE COMMON
CHARACTERISTICS OF PEOPLE WHO
HAVE BEEN THE VICTIM OF VIOLENT
CRIMES GENERALLY EXHIBIT?

The caption changes to "Lori Haskell. University of Toronto."
Then, it changes again to "Common characteristics."

Lori says SO, POST
ASSAULT, PEOPLE WOULD HAVE
OFTENTIMES A PSYCHOLOGICAL
NUMBNESS, SO THEY HAVE A
SHUTDOWN.
THEY HAVE A DIFFICULTY FORMING A
NARRATIVE ABOUT THEIR
EXPERIENCE.
IT'S IN FRAGMENTS FOR THEM.
BUT YOU CAN HAVE THE OPPOSITE AS
WELL.
PEOPLE WHO ARE VERY
HYPER AROUSED.
DEPENDING ON WHAT STRESS
HORMONES ARE IN WHAT LEVELS FOR
THAT PERSON, SO YOU CAN SEE
PEOPLE WHO CHANT CALM THEMSELVES
DOWN VERSUS PEOPLE WHO MAY BE
COMPLETELY DISSOCIATIVE, PEOPLE
WHO ARE QUITE NUMB.
THERE'S QUITE A RANGE OF
EXPERIENCES.

Steve says MAKES IT SOMEWHAT
DIFFICULT, I PRESUME, TO EITHER
TREAT OR INVESTIGATE, BECAUSE
PEOPLE REACT DIFFERENT WAYS.

Lori says PEOPLE EXPECT
THE HYPERAROUSED RESPONSE.
I THINK PEOPLE ARE CONFUSED BY
THE DISSOCIATIVE RESPONSE.

Steve says WHAT ABOUT IN THE
MIDST OF THE ACT OF VIOLENCE
TAKING PLACE?
AGAIN, IS IT A VARIETY OF
REACTIONS?

Lori says AGAIN A LOT
OF PEOPLE AS SOON AS THE FEAR
CIRCUITRY IS TRIGGERED IN THE
BRAIN, AND THIS PART OF
NEUROSCIENCE IS THE MOST
STUDIED, THEY OFTEN WILL GO INTO
IMMEDIATE FREEZE, AND THE BRAIN
STEM IS INHIBITED AND THEY'RE
JUST WATCHFUL, THINKING HOW DO I
ESCAPE?
AND THEN MORE HORMONES ARE
FLOODED TO THEIR BRAIN AND THEIR
BODY, AND THEY CAN GO THROUGH A
WHOLE RANGE OF EXPERIENCES.
FROM BEING COMPLETELY
DISSOCIATIVE TO HAVING VIVID
MOMENTS.
A LOT OF PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THE
MOMENTS THAT ARE WHAT WE CALL
SUPER ENCODED, WHERE THE
ADRENALIN HAS HEIGHTENED THAT
MEMORY AND THEY CAN RECALL IN
DETAIL CERTAIN THINGS AND OTHER
DETAILS CAN'T BE RECALLED AT
ALL.
BECAUSE THE BRAIN ACTUALLY... IF
I PULLED A GUN ON YOU RIGHT NOW,
AND I CERTAINLY WOULDN'T.

Steve says PLEASE DON'T.

Lori says EXACTLY.

Steve says I SHOULD HAVE
CHECKED TO SEE IF YOU WERE
PACKING BEFORE, YES, EXACTLY.

Lori says BUT YOUR
BRAIN... YOU WOULD FOCUS ON MY
WEAPON.
YOUR WHOLE PERCEPTUAL FIELD
WOULD NARROW AND YOU WOULD NOT
BE ENCODING ANY INFORMATION,
JUST THE CENTRAL DETAIL.

Steve says A LOT OF STUFF WOULD
BE GOING ON IN IT HERE AND I
WOULDN'T KNOW IT.

Lori says EXACTLY.
MOST PEOPLE ARE ASKED QUESTIONS
ABOUT WHAT WAS GOING ON AROUND
YOU.

Steve says AND THAT EXPLAINS
WHY THEY DON'T KNOW.

Lori says EXACTLY.

Steve says IN WHICH CASE, WHY,
PARTICULARLY IN AREAS AROUND THE
JUSTICE SYSTEM, INTERVIEWS,
COURTS, AND SO ON, WHY DO WE
APPARENTLY EXPECT PEOPLE WHO
HAVE BEEN THROUGH THIS KIND OF
TRAUMA TO BEHAVE COMPLETELY
RATIONALLY AND RESPOND, YOU
KNOW, IN THE WAY THAT ONE WOULD
REQUIRE IN A COURT?

Lori says I THINK IT'S
BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVEN'T
UNDERSTOOD THE NEUROBIOLOGY OF
THESE EXPERIENCES.
SO WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE BRAIN
IS FLOODED, PART OF THE BRAIN
BECOMES INACTIVATED, INCLUDING
THE PREFRONTAL CORTEX WHICH IS
OUR RATIONAL, EXECUTIVE,
THINKING PART OF THE BRAIN.
THAT'S NOT NECESSARY FOR
SURVIVAL.
SURVIVAL YOU WANT TO GO INTO A
PRIMITIVE STATE OF CENTERING ON
THE DETAILS, GETTING THROUGH IT.
AFTER A CAR ACCIDENT, WE DON'T
EXPECT SOMEBODY TO BE ABLE TO
TELL A STORY, RIGHT?
SO THERE'S A SENSE THAT PEOPLE
WHO ARE... I THINK THERE'S AN
ASSUMPTION THAT IT'S NOT
TERRIFYING, MAYBE THERE'S AN
ASSUMPTION STILL THAT A SEXUAL
ASSAULT ISN'T SOMETHING THAT
CREATES A LOT OF FEAR OR THREAT
FOR SOMEONE, AND MINIMIZING
THOSE RESPONSES, BECAUSE
GENERALLY, WHEN I... I HAVE LOTS
OF SEXUAL ASSAULT VICTIMS THAT
COME TO MY PRIVATE PRACTICE,
MOST OF THEM CANNOT TELL ME THE
STORY.
IT TAKES A LONG TIME TO CREATE
THAT NARRATIVE.
THEY DON'T HAVE... AND THEY
CERTAINLY, DURING THE MIDDLE OF
THE ASSAULT, THEY'RE NOT
STRATEGIZING OR THINKING
THROUGH.
SO I WAS AN EXPERT IN THE COURT
IN ONE CASE WHERE A WOMAN WAS
QUITE TERRIFIED OF A MAN WHO HAD
BEEN SEXUALLY ASSAULTING HER AND
HE WALKED OUT ONE NIGHT, HE WAS
QUITE DRUNK AND POUNDING ON THE
DOOR SAYING LET ME IN.
SHE STOOD ON THE OTHER SIDE OF
THE DOOR AND THEN SHE OPENED IT.
DURING COURT THE DEFENCE WAS
SAYING, IF YOU WERE SO AFRAID OF
HIM, WHY DID YOU LET HIM IN?
SHE SAID I DON'T KNOW.
THAT'S A PRETTY TYPICAL
RESPONSE.
IT WASN'T THAT SHE WAS IN
RATIONAL THINKING.
THEY SAID WHY DIDN'T YOU GO TO
THE PHONE AND CALL 911.
THAT WASN'T AVAILABLE TO HER.
SHE THOUGHT IF I DON'T, I'M
GOING TO BE IN WORSE DANGER, AND
PART OF THE BRAIN WOULD HAVE
BEEN DISCONNECTED AND SHE WASN'T
THINKING.
UNFORTUNATELY, NO ONE SAYS, WHAT
WERE YOU FEELING?
WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?
AND WHEN I'M AN EXPERT IN COURT,
THEY GIVE ME A TRANSCRIPT THAT
SAYS WHAT DID YOU DO NEXT?
WHAT DID YOU DO NEXT?
AS SOMEONE SAID, WHILE HE WAS
STANDING OUTSIDE THAT DOOR, DO
YOU REMEMBER WHAT YOU WERE
FEELING IN YOUR BODY?
DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT THOUGHTS
WERE GOING THROUGH YOUR HEAD?
THEN YOU HAVE REALLY IMPORTANT
EVIDENCE.
SHE MIGHT SAY, I FELT FROZEN.
OR I DON'T REMEMBER FEELING
ANYTHING.
THAT'S EVIDENCE.
THAT MEANS SOMEONE'S
DISSOCIATIVE OR SHUT DOWN.
OR IF SHE SAID, ALL I COULD
THINK OF, DO WHAT YOU NEED TO DO
TO SURVIVE.
AGAIN, THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT
INFORMATION.
BUT THOSE THINGS GET MISSED.

Steve says WHAT DO YOU THINK IT
SAYS ABOUT THE JUSTICE SYSTEM
THAT FOR SOME REASON, IF THE
TRAUMA OF A CAR ACCIDENT, ON THE
ONE HAND, AND THE TRAUMA OF AN
ATTEMPTED RAPE ON THE OTHER
HAND, WE SEEM TO HAVE LOTS OF
UNDERSTANDING FOR WHY THE MIND
MIGHT SHUT DOWN AND NOT REALIZE
VARIOUS FACTS FOR THE CAR
ACCIDENT, BUT SOMEHOW THE
JUSTICE SYSTEM DOESN'T SEEM TO
APPRECIATE THE SAME COULD BE
TRUE IN AN ATTEMPTED RAPE.

Lori says EXACTLY.
AND I DON'T WANT TO GENERALIZE
TOO MUCH, BUT I STILL THINK
THERE'S AN ATTITUDE THAT RAPE IS
JUST SEX.
NOT THAT RAPE IS A HORRIFYING,
THREATENING EXPERIENCE FOR
PEOPLE WHO ARE VICTIMS OF IT.
ESPECIALLY IF IT'S RELATIONAL.
SO IF IT'S YOUR BOYFRIEND OR
YOUR DATE, THERE'S A
MINIMIZATION THAT WHEN THAT
PERSON STARTED TO HOLD YOU DOWN
TOO FIRMLY OR IGNORE WHAT YOU
WANTED, THAT YOUR BRAIN DIDN'T
GO INTO THREAT MODE.

Steve says CAN I UNDERSTAND
THAT BETTER?
DO WE HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT
PERCENTAGE OF ATTEMPTED RAPES
ARE DONE BY PEOPLE THAT THE
VICTIM KNOWS?

Lori says PROBABLY THE
MAJORITY, 90 PERCENT.

Steve says 90 PERCENT?

Lori says YES.
STRANGER RAPES ARE VERY RARE.

Steve says IN WHICH CASE...
OKAY, THE FACT THAT YOU PROBABLY
DO KNOW YOUR ASSAILANT NO DOUBT
COMPLICATES THE WHOLE PROCESS, EH?

Lori says YES.

Steve says HOW SO?
TELL ME MORE ABOUT THAT.

Lori says WE SAW FROM
THE GHOMESHI CASE, THERE WAS A
LOT OF FOCUS ON, YOU KNOW,
POST-VICTIM ASSAULT BEHAVIOUR.
SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE
PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN CONFUSED,
OVERWHELMED IN THE MOMENT,
RIGHT, BECAUSE OF THE
NEUROBIOLOGICAL RESPONSES.
BUT THEN THERE'S CONFUSION, AND
MY CLIENTS WILL SAY THIS, MOST
OF MY CLIENTS WHO WERE SEXUALLY
ASSAULTED CONTACT THEIR OFFENDER
AFTERWARDS.
DID THIS REALLY HAPPEN?
MAYBE HE'LL MAKE REPAIR.
MAYBE HE DIDN'T INTEND TO DO THIS.
I REALLY CARE ABOUT HIM STILL.
MAYBE HE CAN OVERCOME THIS.
SO THERE'S THIS CONFUSION, DID
THIS PERSON VIOLATE MY BODY?
MAYBE THEY DIDN'T INTEND TO.
AND LATER ON WHEN SOMEONE'S
THINKING, WELL, IF THIS WAS AN
EVENT THAT HAPPENED, YOU WOULD
HAVE A REAL CLEAR RESPONSE ABOUT
IT.
BUT THERE ISN'T.
IT'S CONFUSING WITH SOMEONE YOU
CARE ABOUT.

Steve says CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHY,
IN TERMS OF RECOVERING FROM THE
ASSAULT, SOME PEOPLE SEEM TO GET
OVER IT MUCH MORE EASILY THAN
OTHERS WHO HAVE A MUCH MORE
DIFFICULT TIME WITH IT?
WHY IS THAT?

Lori says THAT'S A
COMPLICATED QUESTION.
SO WOMEN WHO... AND WE KNOW THAT
THE MAJORITY OF CASES ARE WOMEN
WHO HAVE ALREADY BEEN ABUSED IN
CHILDHOOD.
SO IF YOU'VE ALREADY BEEN
SEXUALLY ASSAULTED IN CHILDHOOD
OR WERE HARMED AT THE LEVEL OF
DISSOCIATION AND THEN YOU HAVE A
LATER ADULT EXPERIENCE, YOU HAVE
A LONG... MUCH MORE PROTRACTED
TIME TRYING TO RECOVER.

Steve says BECAUSE OF THAT HISTORY?

Lori says BECAUSE OF
THAT HISTORY.
BECAUSE THE RESPONSES ARE MORE
EXTREME, THE DISSOCIATION
HAPPENS FASTER, AND IT DISRUPTS
YOUR SENSE OF, AM I EVER GOING
TO BE SAFE IN THIS WORLD?
SO THEY HAVE A LOT OF INCREASED
FEAR, TERROR, DEPRESSION, AND AS
WELL, HOW PEOPLE RESPONDED TO
AFTERWARDS, THE KIND OF SUPPORT,
WERE THEY BELIEVED, WERE THEY
VALIDATED, HELP SOME PEOPLE
RECOVER MUCH FASTER.

Steve says IN THAT CASE LET'S
TALK ABOUT HOW WE MIGHT IMPROVE
THINGS GOING FORWARD.
FOR EXAMPLE, IF A WOMAN HAS BEEN
RAPED AND SHE GOES TO THE POLICE
AND SHE WANTS TO, YOU KNOW,
REPORT THE DETAILS OF WHAT
HAPPENED OR TRY AND GET SOME
ASSISTANCE OR WHATEVER, WHAT
SHOULD THE POLICE DO IN FUTURE
AS COMPARED TO THE WAY THEY'RE
DOING THINGS NOW WHICH WOULD BE BETTER?

The caption changes to "Changing common practices."

Lori says ONE OF THE
BIG THINGS THAT THEY'RE DOING IN
THE STATES, THEY HAVE BIG
CAMPAIGNS CALLED START BY
BELIEVING.
YOU STILL GO AND GATHER YOUR
EVIDENCE.
SO IF I WENT TO A BREAK-IN AT
YOUR HOUSE, I WOULDN'T GO TO
YOUR DOOR THINKING HE'S PROBABLY
LYING ABOUT THIS, SO I'M GOING
TO KEEP TESTING HIS STORY, I'M
GOING TO SIT THERE WITH A REALLY
COLD FACE.
I'M NOT GOING TO GIVE ANYTHING.
I'M NOT GOING TO BE
COMPASSIONATE OR CARING, BUT
THIS MIGHT ALL BE A LIE.
THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN.
WITH A SEXUAL ASSAULT, THE
ATTITUDE IS, THE PERSON MIGHT BE
LYING.
AND SO THEY'RE NOT COMFORTED...

Steve says IS THAT ACROSS
POLICE FORCES, MALE OR FEMALE OFFICER?

Lori says YOU KNOW,
IT'S STILL A HUGE... LAST YEAR I
WAS TRAINING DETECTIVES IN
VANCOUVER AND A POLICE DETECTIVE
PUT UP HER HAND AND SAID I ASK
VICTIMS TO TELL ME THE STORY,
THE NARRATIVE, BACKWARDS.
AND I SAID WHY?
SHE SAID TO SEE IF THEY'RE
LYING.
SO THEY START... NOT ALL... MANY
START THINKING...

Steve says IT'S A PRESUMPTION
OF LYING.

Lori says IF YOU TRY TO
QUESTION SOMEONE AND YOU'RE
ASSUMING THAT THEY'RE LYING,
THAT DEMEANOUR IS COMMUNICATED
IN MANY WAYS, OR YOU'RE TESTING
A NARRATIVE.
SO I THINK THEY HAVE TO START BY
BEING MUCH MORE COMPASSIONATE
AND ALSO BY STARTING...
CONSISTENT WITH THE ARCHITECTURE
OF THE MEMORY, WHICH IS, WHAT IS
IT THAT YOU REMEMBER FROM YOUR
EXPERIENCE?
NOT TELL ME THE STORY.
IT USUALLY ISN'T ENCODED AS A
COHESIVE, COHERENT NARRATIVE.
WHAT IS IT THAT STOOD OUT FOR
YOU?
THERE'S A STORY FROM THE STATES
IS I LOOKED UP AT THE CEILING
AND COUNTED THE HOLES IN THE
CEILING TILE.

Steve says THAT'S HOW SHE GOT
THROUGH IT?

Lori says THAT'S HOW
SHE GOT THROUGH IT.
THE PROSECUTOR GOT A PICTURE OF
THE CEILING TILE AND THERE WAS
36 HOLES.
THAT'S A VERY IMPORTANT PIECE OF
EVIDENCE.
SO WHAT HAPPENS IS THEY ASK FOR
THE STORY, THEY DON'T ASK WHAT
THEY WERE FEELING, THEY DON'T
START WITH THE VICTIM NEEDS TO
START AND THEY START BY
QUESTIONING THEM IN A SUSPICIOUS
WAY, AND THAT ACTIVATES, AGAIN,
A PERSON'S BRAIN TO FEEL I'M
UNDER THREAT, AND THEN THEY
CAN'T RECALL THE DETAILS.

Steve says AGAIN, WHAT IS IT
ABOUT THIS CRIME AS COMPARED TO,
LET'S USE YOUR EXAMPLE, A HOME INVASION.

Lori says RIGHT.

Steve says WHY A PRESUMPTION OF
DISBELIEF INSTEAD OF BELIEF IN
IT THIS CASE?

Lori says THE
STEREOTYPES HAVE JUST LIVED ON
FOR SO LONG THAT WOMEN LIE,
WOMEN JUST HAVE SEX THAT THEY
REGRET, THAT THIS ISN'T REALLY
TRUE, THESE STATISTICS... IT
CAN'T BE REALLY THAT PREVALENT.
SO THERE'S A LOT OF RAPE MYTHS
THAT HAVE LIVED ON.
A LOT OF TIMES THE WAY THE
SYSTEM IS SET UP, BECAUSE WOMEN
DROP OUT OR THEY GO TO THE
POLICE UNFOUNDED BECAUSE THEY
HAVEN'T BEEN INTERVIEWED IN A
WAY THAT'S EFFECTIVE OR THEY SAY
WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH EVIDENCE,
PEOPLE THINK WOMEN ARE LYING
BECAUSE OF THE UNFOUNDED AND
OFTENTIMES WHEN THEY GET TO
COURT, THERE'S LOTS OF
INCONSISTSCIES IN THEIR STAPLES
STAPLES... STATEMENTS AND THAT'S
BECAUSE THEY WERE ASKED
QUESTIONS WITH PERIPHERAL
DETAILS OR INTERVIEWED TOO SOON
AFTER THE EVENT.
PEOPLE SHOULDN'T BE INTERVIEWED
AFTER A TRAUMATIC EVENT UNTIL
THEY'VE HAD TWO NIGHTS' SLEEPS
AND THE STRESS HORMONES HAVE
LEFT THEIR BRAIN.

Steve says LET'S FOLLOW UP IN
THE COURTS.
WE TALKED ABOUT HOW POLICE OUGHT
TO DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY.
HOW ABOUT JUDGES?
HOW SHOULD JUDGES HANDLE CASES
OF SEXUAL ASSAULT AND-OR RAPE
WHEN THEY COME INTO THEIR COURTROOMS?

Lori says I THINK AGAIN
BY MAKING COURTROOMS THAT ARE
MUCH MORE RECEPTIVE.
I WAS JUST IN PRINCE GEORGE LAST
WEEK AND THEY HAVE A WHOLE TEAM
OF THERAPY DOGS THAT SIT WITH
VICTIMS IN THE COURTROOMS.

Steve says THAT'S IN BRITISH COLUMBIA.

Lori says THE DOGS ARE
IN THE COURTROOM SITTING WITH
THE VICTIM WHO IS ON THE STAND.
SO GIVING THEM WAYS TO COMFORT
THEM, BUT ALSO JUDGES NEED TO BE
MUCH MORE ASSERTIVE AND NOT
ALLOWING UNETHICAL DEFENCES, AND
A LAW PROFESSOR WROTE A PAPER
LAST YEAR SAYING STOP WHACKING
VICTIMS, TALKING ABOUT THE
BRUTAL WAYS THAT THEY ARE
QUESTIONED AND ACTUALLY BULLIED
ON THE STAND.

Steve says SO A JUDGE WOULD
INTERVENE MORE OFTEN?

Lori says INTERVENE MORE OFTEN.
DON'T ALLOW THESE KINDS OF
DEFENCES TO HAPPEN.
AND I THINK AS EVERYONE
UNDERSTANDS, IF YOU ACTUALLY PUT
SOMEONE UNDER THREAT AND FEAR
WHILE THEY'RE TRYING TO TESTIFY,
THEY CAN'T RECALL THE DETAILS.
THEY CAN'T REALLY TELL THE STORY.
IT'S NOT REALLY GETTING AT THE TRUTH.
I DON'T KNOW WHY WE THINK THAT'S
AN EFFECTIVE METHOD.

Steve says I CAN'T HAVE YOU IN
THAT CHAIR AND NOT ASK YOU ABOUT
THE MOST HIGH-PROFILE CASE
INVOLVING A JUDGE AND RAPE IN
THIS COUNTRY IN I DON'T KNOW HOW
MANY YEARS, IT HAPPENED OF
COURSE IN THE PROVINCE OF
ALBERTA, I UNDERSTAND YOU'VE
DONE SOME CONSULTING ON THAT
CASE OR YOU'RE PERIPHERALLY
INVOLVED WITH IT SOMEHOW.
WE'RE TALKING OF COURSE ABOUT
ROBIN CAMP, A JUDGE WHO ASKED
THE WITNESS, THE WOMAN WHO HAD
BEEN RAPED, ON THE STAND, WHY
DIDN'T YOU JUST KEEP YOUR KNEES CLOSED?

Lori says RIGHT.

Steve says CAN YOU TELL US WHAT
YOU LEARNED FROM THAT EXPERIENCE?

Lori says I CAN'T TALK
ABOUT THAT EXPERIENCE BECAUSE
IT'S ALWAYS A WITNESS IN THOSE
PROCEEDINGS AND IT'S STILL A
CASE THAT HASN'T BEEN... COME TO
TERMS YET.

Steve says IT'S NOT BEEN RESOLVED.

Lori says IT'S NOT BEEN RESOLVED.
IN TERMS OF MY OTHER WORK IN THE
CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM AND WITH
JUDGES, AND FIRST OF ALL, NOT
ALL JUDGES, I NEVER WANT THIS TO
SOUND LIKE I'M SAYING THIS ABOUT
ALL JUDGES OR POLICE OR CROWN,
BUT A LOT OF JUDGES ARE PROMOTED
TO THE LEVEL OF JUDGE AND
THEY'VE NEVER EVEN SAT IN A
TRIAL.
THEY HAVEN'T PRACTISED CRIMINAL
LAW.
THEY'VE NEVER REALLY LEARNED ANY
INDEPTH INFORMATION AROUND
SEXUAL ASSAULT.
AND THE PARADIGM SHIFT THAT I'M
SUGGESTING IS A PRETTY
SIGNIFICANT SHIFT AND I THINK IT
NEEDS MUCH MORE INDEPTH TRAINING
AND UNDERSTANDING TO RESPOND
DIFFERENTLY TO VICTIMS.

Steve says HOW DO YOU GET TO BE
A JUDGE IF YOU'VE NEVER BEEN TO A TRIAL?

Lori says THERE ARE
JUDGES, IF YOU GO TO THE
MINISTRY OF JUSTICE WEBSITE AND
LOOK AT THE PROFILES OF JUDGES
BEING PROMOTED, YOU COULD BE AN
ENTERTAINMENT LAWYER, YOU COULD
DO CIVIL LITIGATION, YOU COULD
GO CORPORATE LAW...

Steve says AND NEVER BEEN IN A TRIAL.

Lori says AND SUDDENLY
YOU'RE A JUDGE SITTING IN A
COURTROOM.
I THINK HOW DO WE PROMOTE OUR
JUDGES AND HOW DO WE MAKE SURE
THEY HAVE THE KIND OF INDEPTH
KNOWLEDGE OF SEXUAL ASSAULT AND
UNDERSTAND THE PSYCHOLOGICAL
REPERCUSSIONS AS WELL AS THE
GENDER ISSUES.
I MEAN, THERE WAS A CASE AGAIN
IN ALBERTA, IT WASN'T JUSTICE
CAMP, ANOTHER JUDGE...

Steve says SHE HASTENS TO ADD.

Lori says SHE THREW A
WATER BOTTLE IN THE HALLWAY AT
SOMEONE BEING INTRUSIVE WITH HER
AND SHE HAD LAUGHED.
HE SAID THE LAUGH WAS
INCONSISTENT WITH SOMEONE WHO
DIDN'T WANT THIS EVENT, THIS
KIND OF SEXUAL TENSION.
THERE WAS SOMETHING IN THE NEW
YORK TIMES YESTERDAY ABOUT
LAUGHTER IS ONE WAY OF TRYING TO
DISARM SOMEONE WHO IS MAKING YOU
UNCOMFORTABLE.
SO A LOT OF THESE NORMAL WAYS
THAT WOMEN ARE SOCIALIZED TO TRY
TO ACCOMMODATE, DEFLECT, DISARM
SOMEONE WHO IS MAKING THEM
UNCOMFORTABLE, ARE USED AGAINST THEM.

Steve says CAN I UNDERSTAND
THIS BETTER, THOUGH?
YOU COULD BE AN ENTERTAINMENT
LAWYER FOR 25 YEARS REPRESENTING
CLIENTS IN SHOW BUSINESS AND
THEN FIND YOURSELF PRESIDING
OVER A RAPE TRIAL AND YOU'VE HAD
NO TRAINING IN THE COURTROOM
DYNAMICS OF THAT SITUATION?

Lori says YOU'RE
SUPPOSED TO READ A BENCH BOOK
AND GET INFORMATION, BUT THAT'S
VERY DIFFERENT.
YOU KNOW, I HAVE CROWNS THAT
I'VE WORKED WITH THAT AND BEEN
IN THE FIELD FOR 17, 20 YEARS.
THEY SAY THIS IS THE MOST
COMPLEX WORK AND THEY LEARN ALL
THE TIME BECAUSE IT TAKES... I
MEAN, EVEN THE EFFECTS THAT I'M
DESCRIBING ARE DIFFICULT IN
TERMS OF CHILDHOOD DISSOCIATION
AND NEUROBIOLOGY AND HOW DO YOU
GET ACCESS TO GOOD EVIDENCE AND
HOW DO WE TREAT PEOPLE?

Steve says IN OUR REMAINING
MOMENTS, I WANT TO COME FROM IT
FROM THE OTHER SIDE.
ONE OF THE CORNERSTONES OF OUR
JUSTICE SYSTEM IS THE
PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE AND YET
YOU HAVE SUGGESTED THAT ONE OF
THE THINGS THAT POLICE AND
JUDGES NEED TO DO IS START BY
BELIEVING THE VICTIM.

Lori says EXACTLY, YES.

Steve says AND THAT IS... I
DON'T HAVE TO TELL YOU...
180 DEGREES FROM WHAT OUR
JUSTICE SYSTEM IS SUPPOSED TO BE
ABOUT, WHICH IS PRESUME THE
SO-CALLED PERPETRATOR IS
INNOCENT.
HOW DO WE GET AROUND THAT?

Lori says YOU'RE
ASSUMING HE'S INNOCENT.
THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEN SHE IS
GUILTY OR SHE'S LYING.
ONE DOESN'T MEAN THE OTHER.
AND THAT'S WHAT WE'VE BEEN
DOING.
HE'S INNOCENT, SHE MUST SHALL...
LET'S REALLY LOOK AT HER
CREDIBILITY, THE WAY SHE IS
TELLING THE STORY.
YES, GET EVIDENCE.
GET THE INFORMATION.
BUT ALSO LOOK AT DIFFERENT TYPES
OF EVIDENCE.
IF SOMEONE IS DISSOCIATIVE AND,
YOU KNOW, THERE'S A CASE I'M
READING RIGHT NOW WHERE A WOMAN
HAS A SENSORY FRAGMENT.

Steve says WHAT'S THAT?

Lori says IS SENSORY
FRAGMENT.
PEOPLE REMEMBER I CAN'T GET THE
SMELL OF THE ALCOHOL ON HIS
BREATH, THAT'S THEIR STARTING
POINT, OR THE MOMENT HE SQUEEZED
MY THROAT OR PUSHED ME DOWN ON
THE BED.
SO THAT'S WHAT IS PREDOMINANT IN
THEIR BRAIN.
THEY'LL SAY THAT'S ALL I'M
REMEMBERING RIGHT NOW, AND
PEOPLE SAY, WELL, YOU KNOW, BUT
IF YOU START WITH THAT AND YOU
HELP THEM FILL UP THE PIECES
THEN THEY SLOWLY RECALL REALLY
IMPORTANT PIECES LIKE THE ONE
WITH THE CEILING TILE.
THERE'S SOME CORROBORATIVE
EVIDENCE.
BUT I THINK... IT DOESN'T MEAN
GO AND NOT GET THEIR EVIDENCE,
IT JUST MEANS THE ATTITUDE YOU
HAVE AS A PERSON, YOU'RE NOT
ASSUMING THEY'RE LYING.

Steve says I KNOW YOU'RE NOT A
BIG TWITTER PERSON, BUT THERE IS
A HASHTAG ON TWITTER RIGHT NOW
#BELIEVEHER.
I GUESS SOME PEOPLE ARE GOING TO
WANT TO KNOW WHETHER OR NOT
BELIEVING HER, FIRST AND
FOREMOST, MEANS WE'RE DOING AWAY
WITH THE PRESUMPTION OF
INNOCENCE.
DO YOU THINK?

The caption changes to "Presumption of innocence."

Lori says NO.
BECAUSE WE BELIEVE HE'S
INNOCENT, WE'RE BELIEVING SHE'S
INNOCENT.

Steve says BOTH CAN'T BE TRUE, RIGHT?

Lori says THE EVIDENCE
WILL TELL THE STORY.
THAT'S THE WAY WE INVESTIGATE.
THAT'S THE WAY WE GET THE
INFORMATION.

Steve says WE ARE GOING TO HAVE
A DISCUSSION RIGHT AFTER YOU AND
I ARE DONE HERE WITH A LARGER
GROUP OF GUESTS WHO SAY THAT
BECAUSE OF THE NATURE OF THE
CRIME OF SEXUAL ASSAULT AND THE
PREVALENCE OF IT IN OUR SOCIETY,
WHICH I THINK WE'RE LEARNING A
LOT MORE ABOUT THANKS TO THE
GROSSNESS OF THE AMERICAN
ELECTION CAMPAIGN RIGHT NOW AND
SOME OF THE INFORMATION THAT IS
COMING TO THE FORE, THAT MAYBE
WE SHOULD HAVE A SEPARATE COURT
SYSTEM THAT DEALS WITH VICTIMS
OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE AS OPPOSED TO
OTHER KINDS OF VIOLENCE.
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT NOTION?

The caption changes to "Moving forward."

Lori says I... I KNOW
THE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE COURTS
HAVE BEEN PROFOUNDLY EFFECTIVE.
SO I THINK THE IDEA OF HAVING
PEOPLE WHO HAVE THIS EXPERTISE,
HAVE SPECIALIZED KNOWLEDGE, HAVE
ALL KINDS OF COURTROOMS THAT ARE
SET UP TO, YOU KNOW, MEET THE
REQUIREMENTS OF MAKING A PERSON
FEEL SAFER AND MORE WELCOMED,
AND JUST THE TRUST THAT THIS
IS... THIS COURTROOM IS PEOPLE
WHO UNDERSTAND THESE DYNAMICS, I
THINK IT PROBABLY COULD GO A
LONG WAY AND WE WON'T HAVE SOME
OF THE MISTAKES WE'RE SEEING,
JUDICIAL MISTAKES WE'RE SEEING
NOW WITH JUDGES.
I DON'T THINK ANYONE DOES THIS
WORK WITH ANY INTENTION OF
HARMING PEOPLE.
I THINK THE IDEA OF NOT
UNDERSTANDING CERTAIN PIECES OF
PEOPLE'S BEHAVIOUR OR NOT
UNDERSTANDING THE KIND OF
EVIDENCE OR NOT UNDERSTANDING
THE DEMEANOUR OF SOMEONE WHO HAS
BEEN TRAUMATIZED HAVE LED TO
PROFOUND ERRORS AND I THINK
WOMEN DON'T GO FORWARD ANYMORE.
WE KNOW VERY FEW WOMEN REPORT
THESE CRIMES.

Steve says WHY WOULDN'T YOU
GIVEN WHAT YOU KNOW IS WAITING FOR YOU?

Lori says EXACTLY.
AT THE POINT THEY DO GO TO THE
POLICE AND THEN THERE ARE VERY
FEW CONVICTIONS.
I DID FOCUS GROUPS LAST YEAR AT
U OF T.
I THINK ALMOST 40 OF THEM WERE
STUDENTS.
AND AROUND SEXUAL ASSAULT.
I'D SEE MAYBE ONE OR TWO SAID
THEY WOULD EVEN GO TO THE POLICE.

Steve says ONE OR TWO WOMEN
SAID IF IT HAPPENED TO ME, I
WOULDN'T DO IT.

Lori says THAT'S IT OUT
OF... YOU KNOW?
SO THAT'S DISCOURAGING.
I MEAN, NOT THAT WE WANT
MASSIVELY INCARCERATED
OFFENDERS, BUT IF A WOMAN DOES
WANT SAFETY AND SHE IS FEELING
THAT THIS PERSON IS DANGEROUS...

Steve says AND SHE FEELS
THERE'S NO JUSTICE ON THE OTHER
END FOR HER.

Lori says EXACTLY.
HOW DO WE HAVE A DETERRENT?
HOW DO WE HAVE WOMEN THINKING I
WANT TO BE ABLE TO CARRY ON THIS
WORLD AND...

The caption changes to "Producer: Meredith Martin, @MeredithMartin"

Steve says WE'RE GOING TO CARRY
ON THE CONVERSATION WITH OUR
NEXT GROUP OF GUESTS.
I WANT TO THANK, DR. LORI
HASKELL, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST
AT THE U OF T, THANK YOU FOR
JOINING US.

Lori says THANK YOU FOR
INVITING ME. REALLY APPRECIATE
IT.

Watch: The Truth About Trauma