Transcript: Genders, Rights and Freedom of Speech | Oct 26, 2016

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and lilac tie.

A caption on screen reads "Genders, rights and freedom of speech. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says WHAT'S IN A NAME?
POTENTIALLY A GREAT DEAL.
UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO PSYCHOLOGY
PROFESSOR JORDAN PETERSON HAS A
FIGHT ON HIS HANDS AFTER
OBJECTING TO PROPOSED
LEGISLATION THAT HE SAYS WOULD
VIOLATE HIS FREEDOM OF SPEECH BY
FORCING HIM TO ADDRESS
TRANSGENDERED PEOPLE USING THE
PRONOUNS OF THEIR CHOOSING.
JOINING US NOW TO BETTER
UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE, AND DEBATE
WHAT'S AT STAKE:
IN VANCOUVER, B.C.:
THERYN MEYER, TRANSGENDER PUNDIT
AND YouTuber...

Theryn is in her twenties, with long wavy brown hair and bangs. She's wearing a sleeveless black shirt.

Steve continues IN THE NATION'S CAPITAL:
KYLE KIRKUP, PROFESSOR OF LAW,
UNIVERSITY OF OTTAWA.

Kyle is in his late thirties, with short brown hair and a tousled beard. He's wearing a brown suit, white shirt, and gray tie.

Steve continues AND HERE IN STUDIO:
JORDAN PETERSON, PROFESSOR OF
PSYCHOLOGY, UNIVERSITY OF
TORONTO...

Jordan is in his fifties, clean-shaven, with short curly gray hair. He's wearing a tan blazer over a yellow shirt.

Steve continues NICHOLAS MATTE, LECTURER,
TRANSGENDER STUDIES AT U OF T...

Nicholas is in his late thirties, bald, with a trimmed ginger beard. He's wearing glasses, a black suit, black checkered shirt and purple tie.

Steve continues AND, MARY ROGAN, WHOSE ARTICLE
ENTITLED "GROWING UP TRANS" IS
FEATURED IN THE OCTOBER ISSUE OF
THE WALRUS.

Mary is in her forties, with short gray hair. She's wearing a dark blue shirt.

Steve continues GOOD TO HAVE YOU THREE HERE AND
OUR TWO FRIENDS IN POINTS
BEYOND.
WE APPRECIATE EVERYBODY BEING ON
THE PROGRAM FOR WHAT IS I THINK
ONE OF THE HOTTEST TOPICS IN THE
COUNTRY TODAY, PROFESSOR
PETERSON, AND IT'S ALL BECAUSE
OF YOU.
I THINK BEFORE WE GO ANY FURTHER
WITH OUR CONVERSATION HERE, I
WANT TO GIVE PEOPLE A SENSE OF
HOW HOT THIS HAS GOT, STARTING
ON THE DOWNTOWN CAMPUS OF THE
UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO.
SHELDON, IF YOU WOULD?
ROLL IT.

A clip plays on screen in which Jordan Peterson stands outside a university with a microphone in his hand, as a few people film him and a group of students yells and makes noises.

[MIXED VOICES]

Jordan says WELL, AS YOU CAN SEE, THE
OPPONENTS OF FREE SPEECH ARE
CAPABLE OF MAKING A LOT OF
INARTICULATE NOISE.

Later, he says FREE SPEECH
IS THE MECHANISM BY WHICH WE
KEEP OUR SOCIETY FUNCTIONING.

Now a student speaks into the microphone and says BY DOING THAT, YOU'RE IMPOSING...

Suddenly several people start yelling and hurry towards a small crowd in which people are shoving each other around.

The student says WHOA, WHOA, WHOA, WHOA.
NO, NOT COOL.
NOT COOL.

Later, Jordan holds his forehead as he looks at a camera filming him.

A voice says I'M GOING TO POST THIS ONLINE
THAT YOU WOULD LIKE PEOPLE TO BE
MORE ACCOMMODATING OF TRANS
PEOPLE AT YOUR EVENTS IN THE
FUTURE.

As Jordan starts to speak, a student interrupts and yells
I'M A PERSON OF COLOUR AND I
FEEL ACCOMMODATED.

Another voice says THERE HAVE BEEN MULTIPLE
RECORDED INCIDENTS OF TRANS
PEOPLE KILLING THEMSELVES
BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT BEING
INTEGRATED INTO SOCIETY.

Now another student says IF IT WASN'T FOR THIS LAW AND I ASK YOU TO REFER TO ME WITH
THE CORRECT PRONOUNS.

Another student says WHY DO YOU HAVE AUTHORITY TO
DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT AN
INDIVIDUAL IS WORTHY OF YOU
USING THEIR PRONOUNS.
IF I ASKED YOU IF YOU WOULD
PLEASE USE THE PRONOUNS...

Jordan says IT DEPENDS ON WHAT...

Another student interrupts.

The asker says THOSE ARE MY PRONOUNS!

The clip ends.

The caption changes to "Why?"

Steve says WITH INDULGENCE OF
EVERYBODY ELSE ON THE PROGRAM,
I'M GOING TO START WITH
PROFESSOR PETERSON OFF THE TOP
HERE FOR A WHILE BECAUSE, AS I
SUGGESTED, YOU THOUGHT LONG AND
HARD ABOUT THIS.
YOU POSTED A FEW THINGS UP TO
YouTube BECAUSE YOU HAD BEEN
THINKING LONG AND HARD ABOUT IT.
ONE AND A HALF MILLION HITS
LATER, JORDAN, ONE AND A HALF
MILLION HITS LATER, THIS HAS
BECOME A HUGE ISSUE.
SO LET'S START THERE.
WHY DID YOU POST THOSE VIEWS TO
YouTube IN THE FIRST PLACE?

The caption changes to "Jordan Peterson. University of Toronto."

Jordan says WELL,
THERE'S PROXIMATE AND DISTAL
REASONS.
THE PROXIMATE REASONS WAS
BECAUSE I RECEIVED SOME
CORRESPONDENCE FROM CLIENTS OF
MINE WHO HAD BEEN, I WOULD SAY,
PERSECUTED IN A VARIETY OF WAYS
BY PEOPLE WHO ARE POLITICALLY
CORRECT AND THEY SENT ME SOME
DOCUMENTATION ABOUT BILL C-16
AND THE ASSOCIATED POLICY
STATEMENTS ON THE ONTARIO HUMAN
RIGHTS COMMISSION, WHICH I READ,
AND WAS NOT VERY HAPPY ABOUT,
AND ALSO BECAUSE THE UNIVERSITY
OF TORONTO DECIDED TO MAKE
ANTI-RACISM AND ANTIBIAS
TRAINING, SO-CALLED ANTI-RACISM
AND ANTIBIAS TRAINING MANDATORY,
WHICH I REGARDED AS AN
INAPPROPRIATE INCURSION BY THE
UNIVERSITY ADMINISTRATION.

Steve says HAVE YOU TAKEN THAT
TRAINING YET?

Jordan says NO, AND I
DON'T HAVE TO YET.
IT'S THE H.R. PERSONNEL THAT
HAVE TO TAKE IT.

Steve says IF THEY DECIDE YOU
HAVE TO, WILL YOU TAKE IT?

Jordan says NO WAY.
NOT A CHANCE.

Steve says YOU REFERRED TO
PERSECUTION THAT FRIENDS OR
CLIENTS HAD EXPERIENCED.

Jordan says WELL,
YEAH.
THERE ARE LOTS OF PLACES NOW
WHERE THE WORKPLACE HAS BECOME,
I WOULD SAY, EXCESSIVELY
POLITICIZED, SO PEOPLE WHO HAVE
VIEWPOINTS, AND THIS ALSO
INCLUDES, I WOULD SAY, FAIRLY
RADICAL LEFTIST VIEWPOINTS,
PEOPLE DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE AT
ALL IN BEING ABLE TO USE THE
LANGUAGE OF THEIR CHOICE OR TO
HAVE EVEN OPINIONS ABOUT A
VARIETY OF DIFFERENT THINGS, AND
SO... I'VE HAD THREE CLIENTS WHO
I WOULD SAY HAVE BEEN, WE'LL
SAY, HARASSED, I SUPPOSE IS THE
RIGHT WAY OF PUTTING IT...

Steve says ON SOCIAL MEDIA OR
OTHERWISE?

Jordan says NO, AT
WORK, AT WORK, BY PEOPLE WHO
DON'T LIKE THEIR POLITICAL
OPINIONS, ESSENTIALLY.

Steve says AND THE OPINIONS
WERE WHAT?

Jordan says I CAN'T
TELL YOU TOO MUCH ABOUT IT,
ACTUALLY, BECAUSE OF ISSUES...
FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES OF
CONFIDENTIALITY.

Steve says ESSENTIALLY I GUESS
WHAT I'M ASKING IS TO LAY THE
CASE OUT.
WHAT IS IT YOU FIND OFFENSIVE
ABOUT THIS LEGISLATION?

The caption changes to "Jordan Peterson, @jordanbpeterson."

Jordan says FUNDAMENTALLY, THERE ARE TWO
THINGS THAT REALLY BOTHERED ME,
ALTHOUGH THERE HAVE BEEN OTHER
THINGS I'VE THOUGHT ABOUT SINCE.
ONE IS I WAS BEING ASKED, AS
EVERYONE IS, TO USE A CERTAIN
SET OF WORDS THAT I THINK ARE
CONSTRUCTIONS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE
A POLITICAL IDEOLOGY THAT I
DON'T BELIEVE IN AND I ALSO
REGARD AS DANGEROUS.

Steve says WHAT ARE THOSE
WORDS?

Jordan says THOSE ARE
THE MADE-UP WORDS THAT PEOPLE
NOW DESCRIBE AS GENDER NEUTRAL,
AND SO TO ME, THEY'RE AN ATTEMPT
TO CONTROL LANGUAGE AND IN A
DIRECTION THAT ISN'T HAPPENING
ORGANICALLY, IT'S NO THE
HAPPENING NATURALLY, PEOPLE
AREN'T PICKING UP THESE WORDS IN
THE TYPICAL WAY NEW WORDS ARE
PICKED UP, BUT BY FORCE AND BY
FIAT.
I WOULD SAY BY FORCE BECAUSE
THERE'S LEGISLATIVE POWER BEHIND
THEM AND I DON'T LIKE THE
MADE-UP WORDS, THEY AND THEY'RE.

Steve says THEY IS ONE OF THEM,
TO SPEAK TO AN INDIVIDUAL AS
THEY.

Jordan says WE CAN'T
DISPENSE BETWEEN THE DISTINCTION
BETWEEN SINGULAR AND PLURAL.
I KNOW THE ADVOCATES OF THAT
PARTICULAR APPROACH SAY THEY HAS
BEEN USED FOREVER AS A SINGULAR
AND THAT'S ACTUALLY NOT CORRECT.
IT'S USED AS A SINGULAR IN VERY
EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES, LIKE
IF YOUR CHILD WISHES TO BRING A
BOOK TO SCHOOL, THEY'RE WELCOME
TO DO SO.

Steve says THAT'S JUST
GRAMMATICALLY INCORRECT.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: @theagenda, TVO.org, YouTube, Facebook, Instagram."

Jordan says THERE'S
SOME DEBATE ABOUT THAT, BECAUSE
"THEY" IS USED LIKE THAT
SOMETIMES.
BUT IT'S NEVER BEEN USED AS A
SINGULAR REPLACEMENT FOR HE OR
SHE.
SO IT'S NOT A TENABLE SOLUTION
AND THAT'S THE BEST OF THE
SOLUTIONS.

Steve says WE UNDERSTAND YOUR
VIEWS AND WHERE YOU'RE COMING
FROM.
YOU'VE DECIDED TO LAY THESE
VIEWS OUT IN SOME YouTube
DISCOURSES.

Jordan says YES.

Steve says YOU PUT THEM UP.
THE RESPONSE HAS BEEN
OVERWHELMING.

Jordan says YES.

Steve says DID YOU ANTICIPATE
YOU WOULD GET THIS KIND OF
FEEDBACK?

Jordan says NO, THERE
WAS NO WAY OF ANTICIPATING THIS.
YOU MENTIONED IN THE INTRO THAT
THIS IS A CONSEQUENCE OF WHAT
I'VE DONE.
I DON'T THINK THAT'S TRUE.
IT'S A CONSEQUENCE OF THE
FACT... I THOUGHT ABOUT IT AND I
THINK THE RIGHT METAPHOR IS
THERE'S A LARGE FOREST AND IT'S
BEEN A HOT, DRY SUMMER OR MAYBE
A DROUGHT AND THERE'S PLENTY OF
DEADWOOD GATHERED AND I LIT A
SPARK.
YOU CAN'T BLAME THE FOREST FIRE
ON THE SPARK.
IT'S JUST NOT POSSIBLE FOR
SOMEONE TO PUT UP A YouTube
VIDEO AND CAUSE THIS KIND OF
BROUHAHA WITHOUT THE GROUNDWORK
BEING LAID.

Steve says THERE IS OUT THERE
AN APPETITE AGAINST POLITICAL
CORRECTNESS WHICH IS WHAT YOU
HAVE DESCRIBED THIS AS.
IN FACT, YOUR YouTube VIDEO IS
CALLED PROFESSOR AGAINST
POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.
LET'S ALL MAKE SURE WE'RE
SPEAKING THE SAME LANGUAGE HERE.
YOU WOULD DEFINE THAT HOW,
POLITICAL CORRECTNESS?

Jordan says I THINK
IT'S A PARTICULAR KIND OF I HAD
LOGICAL GAME AND... IDEOLOGICAL
GAME.
IT'S TO MAKE THE PERSON FEEL
SUPERIOR AND AXE SWINGING AT THE
FOUNDATION OF SOCIETY, SO THE
GAME IS IDENTIFY A DOMAIN OF
HUMAN ENDEAVOUR.
NOTE THAT THERE'S A DISTRIBUTION
OF SUCCESS.
SOME PEOPLE ARE DOING
COMPARATIVELY BETTER AND SOME
PEOPLE ARE DOING COMPARATIVELY
WORSE.
DEFINE THOSE DOING WORSE AS
VICTIMS.
DEFINE THOSE DOING BETTER AS
PERPETRATORS.
IDENTIFY WITH THE VICTIMS.
HAVE YOURSELF A SET OF ENEMIES
HANDY TO VENT YOUR RESENTMENT
ON.
FEEL GOOD ABOUT IT EVEN THOUGH
IT DIDN'T REALLY REQUIRE ANY
WORK ON YOUR PART.
AND THEN ENDLESSLY REPEAT.
THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SEEING
HAPPENING ON CAMPUSES IN
PARTICULAR FOR THE LAST 30
YEARS?
IN YOUR YouTube YOU DESCRIBE
THOSE WHO OPPOSE YOU AS
RESENTFUL AND UNINFORMED.
WHY DO YOU THINK THAT'S
ACCURATE?

Jordan says I WORKED
FOR THE NDP UNTIL THE TIME I WAS
14 I WORKED WITH RACHEL NOTLEY'S
MOTHER AND FATHER AND KNEW THEM
VERY WELL.
I ACTUALLY FOUND THEM AS
ADMIRABLE PEOPLE AS WELL AS THE
OTHER PEOPLE ON THE SOCIALIST
END OF THE DISTRIBUTION WHO ARE
GENERALLY WORKING FOR THE RIGHTS
OF WORKING CLASS PEOPLE, COMING
OUT OF THE SASKATCHEWAN
TRADITION THAT ESTABLISHED
HEALTH CARE AND PENSION AND ALL
OF THAT.
BUT I NOTED AT THE SAME TIME
THAT THE PARTY FUNCTIONARIES,
LET'S SAY, WEREN'T THAT SORT OF
PERSON AT ALL.
THEY DIDN'T LIKE THE WORKING
CLASS.
THEY WOULDN'T STAND UP FOR THEM.
I COULDN'T PUT MY FINGER ON IT
UNTIL I READ GEORGE ORWELL WHICH
WAS WRITTEN FOR THE LEFT BOOK
CLUB IN THE U.K. AND HE WAS
TALKING ABOUT THE FAILURES OF
SOCIALISM IN THE UNITED KINGDOM
AND THEN DISCUSSED INTELLECTUAL
SOCIALISTS.

Steve says RESENTFUL AND
UNINFORMED?

Jordan says THE
RESENTFULNESS IS THE WILLINGNESS
TO PULL DOWN ANY STRUCTURE
THAT'S HIERARCHICAL BECAUSE OF
RESENTMENT OF NOT BEING ON THE
TOP.
AND UNINFORMED IS THE CONSISTENT
ATTEMPT TO FORCE EVERY POLITICAL
ISSUE INTO A SINGLE... INTO THE
DOMAIN ENCOMPASSED AND VIEWED
THROUGH THIS SINGLE LENS.

Steve says JORDAN, LET'S DO ONE
MORE QUESTION AND THEN GET
EVERYBODY ELSE INTO THE
CONVERSATION.
YOU KNOW OF COURSE SINCE THIS
STORY BROKE YOU'VE BEEN CALLED A
LOT OF THINGS.

Jordan says YEAH.

Steve says ONE OF WHICH IS A
TRANSPHOBE.
SOME PEOPLE HAVE ACCUSED YOU OF
USING THE FREE SPEECH ISSUE TO
MASK WHAT'S REALLY GOING ON
HERE, WHICH IS AN ATTEMPT TO
DEPRIVE OTHER PEOPLE OF WHAT
THEY BELIEVE ARE THEIR
LEGITIMATE RIGHTS.
WE'LL GIVE YOU THE OPPORTUNITY
TO SPEAK TO WHETHER OR NOT YOU
ARE A TRANSPHOBE.

Jordan says I CAN TELL
YOU I'VE RECEIVED MORE LETTERS
FROM TRANSSEXUAL PEOPLE
SUPPORTING ME THAN OPPOSING ME,
AND I NEVER SAID ANYTHING REALLY
ABOUT TRANSSEXUAL PEOPLE ABOUT
THEIR EXISTENCE, ALTHOUGH THAT
WAS THE FIRST THING I WAS
ACCUSED OF DOING.
I DIDN'T SAY THAT TRANSSEXUAL
PEOPLE DIDN'T EXIST.
I SAID THAT GENDER IDENTITY,
GENDER EXPRESSION AND BIOLOGICAL
SEX DON'T VARY INDEPENDENTLY,
WHICH THEY DON'T.
SO THIS ISSUE IS IN SOME SENSE
ONLY PERIPHERALLY ABOUT
TRANSSEXUAL ISSUES.
IT'S MORE CENTRALLY ABOUT GENDER
ISSUES AND THEN ON TOP OF THAT,
AND I THINK IT'S THE BIGGEST
ISSUE, IS THAT IT'S A FREE
SPEECH ISSUE.

Steve says OKAY.
LET US CONTINUE TO EXPLORE ALL
OF THOSE ISSUES THAT YOU HAVE
JUST RAISED.
WHY DON'T WE DO THIS?
LET'S TAKE A MOMENT.
WE'RE GOING TO EXPLAIN A FEW
BASIC THINGS HERE.
THE ISSUE OF SO-CALLED
NON-TRADITIONAL PRONOUNS GO WITH
UNTRADITIONAL GENDER IDENTITIES.
NEW YORK CITY, FOR EXAMPLE,
RECOGNIZES 29 GENDER
EXPRESSIONS.
FOR EXAMPLE, PAN GENDER, QUEER
GENDER, GENDER FLUID, CROSS
DRESSER, BIGENDERED, GENDER
BLENDER, AND THE LIST GOES ON.
NICHOLAS, YOU TEACH
TRANS STUDIES.
IF YOU WOULD, GIVE US A BRIEF
PRIMER ON SO MANY GENDER
IDENTITIES THAT IN YOUR VIEW
REQUIRE NON-TRADITIONAL
PRONOUNS.

The caption changes to "Nicholas Matte. University of Toronto."
Then, it changes again to "What's in a pronoun."

Nicholas says BASICALLY
IT'S NOT CORRECT THAT THERE IS
SUCH A THING AS BIOLOGICAL SEX.
I'M AN HISTORIAN OF MEDICINE.
I CAN UNPACK THAT FOR YOU AT
GREAT LENGTH, IF YOU WANT, BUT
IN THE INTERESTS OF TIME, I
WON'T.
THAT'S A POPULAR MISCONCEPTION.
IN MY CLASSES WE'RE LOOKING AT
ACTUAL RESEARCH AND IDENTIFYING
WAYS THAT CURRENT SOCIAL ISSUES
RELATED TO TRANS PEOPLE OR
THINGS THAT ARE ASSOCIATED WITH
TRANS, SUCH AS FREE SPEECH
ARGUMENTS AND CLAIMS, HOW THAT
CONNECTS TO THE WAY THAT PEOPLE
ARE THINKING, THE WAY THEIR
RESEARCH HAS BEEN FRAMED...

Steve says GIVE US SOME OF THE
OTHER PRONOUNS THAT ONE WOULD
HEAR TYPICALLY.

Nicholas says I DON'T
FOCUS ON PRONOUNS BECAUSE IT'S
PART OF A FIS CULTURE.
I'LL EXPLAIN.
WE DON'T START FROM A FIS
NORMATIVE PERSPECTIVE BECAUSE
THAT DOESN'T GO VERY FAR.

Steve says WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

Nicholas says I'LL START
THERE.
CIS IS THE POPULAR ASSUMPTION
THAT MOST PEOPLE HAVE AND
DEFINITELY STRUCTURES CONVEY
THAT THERE IS SUCH A THING AS
MALE AND FEMALE, THAT THEY
CONNECT TO BEING A GIRL OR BOY
OR A MAN OR A WOMAN AND THEN
SOMETIMES THAT WILL ALSO
RECOGNIZE TRANSSEXUAL PEOPLE, AS
YOU MENTIONED, BECAUSE THAT'S...
SOMETIMES ALSO REFERRED TO AS A
GENDER BINARY, SO THING THAT
FITS WITHIN A GENDER BINARY CAN
WORK WITHIN CIS NORMATIVITY.
CIS NORMATIVITY IS EVERYONE
ASSUMES THERE IS BOTH MALE AND
FEMALE SO IT'S NOT LOOKED AT AS
TO WHAT IS ACTUALLY THE CASE...

Steve says YOUR VIEW WOULD BE
IT'S MUCH MORE COMPLICATED THAN
THAT.

Nicholas says IT'S NOT MY
VIEW.
I KNOW FOR OVER 50 YEARS
SCIENTISTS HAVE SHOWN THAT'S NOT
TRUE AND YET OUR SOCIAL SYSTEMS
HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO FIND A WAY
TO ADDRESS THE LEVEL OF
COMPLEXITY THAT PEOPLE...

Jordan says CAN I STEP
IN, STEVE?

Steve says STAND BY FOR A
SECOND.
I WANT TO GET EVERYBODY ELSE IN
FURTHER.

Nicholas says I DIDN'T
INTERRUPT YOU EITHER.

Steve says MARY, HOW PREVALENT
IS TRANSGENDERISM IN OUR WORLD?

The caption changes to "Mary Rogan. Writer."

Mary says I DON'T THINK I
CAN ANSWER THAT QUESTION.
I THINK THAT, I WOULD AGREE WITH
NICHOLAS, THAT THERE IS SOME
DISCREPANCY ON THESE NUMBERS AND
THERE IS SOME VARIANCE ON THE
NUMBERS.
I GUESS... I GUESS I'M CURIOUS
AS TO WHY WE NEED TO PUT A
NUMBER ON THIS BECAUSE THAT'S
COME UP... I LISTENED TO
JORDAN'S VIDEO AND THAT WAS
SOMETHING THAT WAS MENTIONED.
YOU KNOW, THIS IS STATISTICALLY,
YOU KNOW, THERE ARE SO FEW
INTERSEX PEOPLE AS TO BE... IT'S
INSIGNIFICANT.

Steve says THERE'S A REASONABLE
CURIOSITY AS TO WHETHER OR NOT
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HALF THE
POPULATION OR LESS THAN ONE
PERCENT OF THE POPULATION,
THAT'S ALL.

Mary says NO, I
UNDERSTAND THAT.
I GUESS WHAT I'M SAYING IS IT
SEEMS THAT THERE'S A FOCUS ON
THAT IN TERMS OF WHAT WE KNOW
NOW, AND I THINK WHAT NICHOLAS
IS TRYING TO SAY, AND I DON'T
WANT TO PRESUME TOO MUCH, I
THINK THAT THAT NUMBER IS GOING
TO BE SOMETHING THAT EVOLVES AS
WE EVOLVE AND OUR LANGUAGE
EVOLVES AND WE GIVE PEOPLE THE
ROOM TO COME FORWARD AND EXPRESS
WHO THEY ARE.

Steve says LET ME AS PART OF
THAT EXPRESSION AND EVOLUTION OF
THIS ISSUE, THE USE OF
NON-TRADITIONAL PRONOUNCE.
WHERE ARE YOU ON THAT?

Mary says I THINK PEOPLE
SHOULD BE ABLE TO SAY HOW THEY
WANT TO BE ADDRESSED.
I DO BELIEVE THAT.
IN MY OWN EXPERIENCE IN WRITING
THE WALRUS PIECE, I BEGAN AT ONE
PLACE AND ENDED AT ANOTHER AND
I'LL LET EVERYONE PAY THEIR 7 dollars
TO FIND OUT HOW, THEY CAN BUY
THE MAGAZINE.
BUT I THINK THAT FOR ME,
IDENTIFYING AS MALE AT A VERY
LATE STAGE IN MY LIFE, I DON'T
HAVE... I DIDN'T HAVE A LOT OF
ATTACHMENT TO THE PRONOUNCE
"SHE."
YOU COULD HAVE SAID "GIRAFFE."
I FOUND A WAY AT A VERY EARLY
AGE NOT TO HEAR THAT WORD.
IT MEANT NOTHING TO ME.
SO I DIDN'T DIVE INTO THE
PRONOUN "HE."

Steve says IF I WERE GOING TO
REFER TO YOU IN THE THIRD
PERSON, YOU WOULD WANT ME TO
CALL YOU THEY?

Mary says YES.

Steve says BECAUSE THAT
ENCAPSULATES WHAT?

Mary says I THINK IT
REFLECTS WHERE I AM NOW.
BECAUSE OF MY LIVED EXPERIENCE,
YOU KNOW, FIVE DECADES AS BEING
IDENTIFIED CERTAINLY BY THE
WORLD AS FEMALE SOME OF THE
TIME, NOT ALL OF THE TIME, MY
LIVED EXPERIENCE WAS LARGELY
FEMALE, AND I PERSONALLY AM NOT
SORT OF READY TO JUMP IN WHOLLY
INTO HAVING PEOPLE CALL ME "HE,"
BUT I'M CERTAINLY FAR ENOUGH
ALONG IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, HOW
I FEEL INTERNALLY THAT I DON'T
WANT TO BE CALLED "SHE."

Steve says UNDERSTOOD.
LET'S GO TO BRITISH COLUMBIA.
THERYN, I WANT YOU TO HELP US
UNDERSTAND FOR OUR VIEWERS WHO
DON'T KNOW YOU AND DON'T KNOW
YOUR WORK, I WOULD LIKE YOU TO
DESCRIBE YOURSELF.

The caption changes to "Theryn Meyer. Transgender Pundit."

Theryn says WELL, I MAKE
POLITICAL COMMENTARY MOSTLY ON
YouTube AND I MOSTLY FOCUS ON
BASICALLY COUNTERING WITH MY OWN
PERSONAL PERSPECTIVES,
COUNTERING WHAT I CONSIDER TO BE
THE KIND OF HEGEMONY
SURROUNDING... THE POLITICAL
HEGEMONY SURROUNDING TRANS
POLITICS AND WHAT I CONSIDER TO
BE QUITE RIDICULOUS OPINIONS
COMING FROM WHAT HAS COME TO BE
KNOWN AS KIND OF THE POLITICAL
TRANS LOBBY.

Steve says I'M NOT AS GOOD AT
THIS ISSUE AS I SHOULD BE, SO
I'M GOING TO LOOK TO YOU TO HELP
ME MAKE THE RIGHT... USE THE
RIGHT WORDS HERE TO DESCRIBE HOW
YOU WERE BORN AND WHAT YOU SEE
YOURSELF AS NOW.
SO IS IT ACCURATE TO SAY YOU'RE
A TRANS WOMAN?

Theryn says YES, I'M... I
WISH I LIVED IN A WORLD WHERE
THAT WAS JUST OBVIOUS AND I
DON'T HAVE TO EXPLAIN THAT TO
PEOPLE, BUT APPARENTLY I DO.
I MEAN, YES, I'M JUST A WOMAN.

Steve says IS THIS TO SAY YOU
WERE BORN MALE BUT NOW ARE FEMALE?

Theryn says YES.
I TRANSITIONED FROM MALE TO
FEMALE.

Steve says IN WHICH CASE DO I
REFER TO YOU... I'M GOING TO ASK
YOU THE SAME QUESTION I ASKED
MARY, WHICH IS, DO I REFER TO
YOU AS "HER" OR "SHE" NOW?

Theryn says YES, YOU DO.

Steve says YOU DO.
OKAY.
HOW DO YOU RELATE TO THE
EXPERIENCES WE HAVE HEARD ARISE
DURING THIS DEBATE WHERE GENDER
IDENTITIES AND PRONOUNS ARE UP
FOR GRABS, IF YOU LIKE?

The caption changes to "Theryn Meyer, @therynmeyer."

Theryn says I'M VERY
SKEPTICAL OF THE IDEOLOGY
SURROUNDING GENDER IDENTITY.
I DON'T BELIEVE THERE ARE
29-PLUS GENDER IDENTITIES OR
GENDERS.
I BELIEVE THERE'S MALE AND
FEMALE AND THEN THERE'S
SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN, AND MOST
PEOPLE FALL AROUND THAT.
AND JUST PEOPLE WHO ARE IN
BETWEEN DOES NOT CONSTITUTE ANY
AGENDA.
THERE ARE TWO GENDERS, PERIOD,
AND THAT IS BIOLOGICALLY A SOUND
ARGUMENT TO MAKE.
JUST BECAUSE... BECAUSE THE
ARGUMENT THAT WAS MADE EARLIER
IN THE SHOW, IT WASN'T AN
ARGUMENT BUT A CLAIM, THAT THERE
IS NO SUCH THING AS BIOLOGICAL
SENSE.
WELL, THAT'S SIMPLY NOT TRUE.
IT IS TRUE THAT THERE ARE
MULTIPLE CHARACTERISTICS AND
THERE ARE MULTIPLE FACTORS THAT
GO INTO DETERMINING SEX AND THAT
SEX IS NOT A... THAT THERE IS A
SPECTRUM TO IT, JUST LIKE MOST
THINGS IN NATURE, MOST THINGS
DEVELOP ON A SPECTRUM.
BUT FOR THE MOST PART, THE VAST
MAJORITY OF PEOPLE FALL EITHER
ON THE MALE SIDE OR ON THE
FEMALE SIDE.
AND, YES, IT'S TRUE THAT
SCIENTISTS, THAT DOCTORS AND
RESEARCHERS HAVE BEEN FINDING
MORE AND MORE FACTORS THAT GO
INTO NOT ONLY DETERMINING
GENETIC SEX, THEY'RE DETERMINING
THE EXPRESSION OF THOSE GENES,
SO IT'S TRULY A FASCINATING
COMPLEX FIELD OF STUDY, BUT THAT
DOES NOT MEAN THAT THERE IS NO
SUCH THING AS BIOLOGICAL SEX.
WHEN IT COMES TO THE ISSUE OF
PRONOUNS... WOULD YOU LIKE ME
TO...

Steve says YES, BRIEFLY, IF YOU
WOULD, BECAUSE KYLE HAS BEEN THE
MOST PATIENT PERSON IN THE WORLD
WAITING FOR HIS CHANCE TO GET
IN.
SO, YES, YOU FINISH YOUR
STATEMENT, AND THEN I'M GOING TO
GET TO KYLE.

Theryn says OKAY.
MY APOLOGIES.
FIRST OF ALL, I HAVE A LOT OF
SYMPATHY FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO
BE REFERRED TO BY THEIR
PRONOUNS.
OBVIOUSLY AS A TRANS WOMAN, I
KNOW WHAT IT FEELS LIKE TO BE
MISGENDERED AND WHATNOT.
MOST PEOPLE ARE REASONABLE IN
THE SENSE THAT THEY WOULD BE
REASONABLE ENOUGH TO ACCOMMODATE
TRANS PEOPLE AND THEIR PREFERRED
PRONOUNS, AND I'M SURE... I
MEAN, I WOULD HOPE THAT IF I
WERE A STUDENT OF DR. PETERSON
THAT HE WOULD REFER TO ME AS
"SHE" AND WOULDN'T HAVE A
PROBLEM WITH THAT.
BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, YOU
KNOW, A PERSONAL PRONOUN
PREFERENCE IS STILL A PREFERENCE
FOR WHAT LANGUAGE OTHER PEOPLE
USE, AND AT THE END OF THE DAY,
I DON'T HAVE ULTIMATE CONTROL
OVER WHAT DR. PETERSON... THE
LANGUAGE HE WOULD CHOOSE TO USE
OR ANYBODY ELSE FOR THAT MATTER.
THAT'S UP TO THEM.

Steve says LET ME FIND OUT
THEN.
IF SHE WERE A STUDENT OF YOURS,
WHAT WOULD YOU CALL HER?

Jordan says SHE.

Steve says YOU WOULD.
OKAY.
WE'VE ESTABLISHED THAT.
THERYN, STAND BY FOR A SECOND
NOW.
I DO WANT... THANK YOU FOR YOUR
PATIENCE, PROFESSOR KIRKUP.
I WANT TO BRING YOU IN NOW
BECAUSE, AS I SUGGESTED EARLIER,
IN NEW YORK CITY THEY HAVE
IDENTIFIED 31 GENDER IDENTITIES
AND APPARENTLY THE LAW DOWN
THERE SUGGESTS THAT IF
BUSINESSES DON'T ACCOMMODATE, AN
INDIVIDUAL'S CHOSEN GENDER
IDENTITY, THERE IS THE RISK OF A
SIX-FIGURE FINE UNDER THE RULES
OF THE CITY'S COMMISSIONER OF
HUMAN RIGHTS.
WE HAVE, IN THE PROVINCE OF
ONTARIO, OUR OWN ONTARIO HUMAN
RIGHTS COMMISSION, AND I WONDER
HOW SIMILAR OUR LEGISLATION IS
HERE ON THIS ISSUE COMPARED TO
WHAT THEY HAVE IN NEW YORK CITY.

The caption changes to "Kyle Kirkup. University of Ottawa."
Then, it changes again to "Law against mis(pronoun)ciation."

Kyle says SO WHERE I
WOULD START THE DISCUSSION IS TO
ACTUALLY POINT THAT, YOU KNOW,
EVEN THOUGH WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
ADDING GENDER IDENTITY AND
GENDER EXPRESSION TO THE
CANADIAN HUMAN RIGHTS ACT AND
PROVISIONS OF THE CRIMINAL CODE,
THIS IS A LONGSTANDING PRACTICE
IN CANADIAN HUMAN RIGHTS
JURISPRUDENCE.
YOU CAN GO BACK INTO THE LATE
1990s.
AND THE CASES WE'RE SEEING IN
THE TRIBUNALS ARE NOT THE KIND
OF EXTREME EXAMPLES OF A NUMBER
OF DIFFERENT KINDS OF GENDER
PRONOUNCE.
WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS REALLY MORE
BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS QUESTIONS.
SO QUESTIONS LIKE, ARE YOU
REQUIRED TO UNDERGO SURGERY IN
ORDER TO HAVE AN IDENTITY
DOCUMENT THAT PROPERLY CAPTURES
WHO YOU ARE AS A PERSON?
DISCRIMINATION IN POLICING
CONTEXTS.
DISCRIMINATION IN THE WORKPLACE.
AND SO I THINK THE PRONOUN ISSUE
IS REALLY A RED HERRING.
WHEN YOU LOOK THROUGH THE
JURISPRUDENCE DATING BACK TO THE
1990s, WE'RE SEEING MUCH MORE
FUNDAMENTAL QUESTIONS, REALLY
BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS QUESTIONS
THAT ARE COMING BEFORE THE
TRIBUNALS, AND HAVING REVIEWED
THE CASE LAW, I'M NOT SEEING THE
KIND OF NEW YORK SCENARIO THAT
YOU'RE PROPOSING AT ALL.

Steve says WELL, LET ME READ
SOME OF THE ONTARIO HUMAN RIGHTS
CODE TO YOU, AND THEN I'LL GET
YOUR FEEDBACK ON THAT.

A quote appears on screen, under the title "It's a matter of rights." The quote reads "Discrimination happens when a person experiences negative treatment or impact, intentional or not, because of their gender identity or gender expression. It can be direct and obvious or subtle and hidden, but harmful just the same. It can also happen on a bigger systemic level such as organizational rules or policies that look neutral but end up excluding trans people.
Organizations are liable for any discrimination and harassment that happens. They are also liable for not accommodating a trans person's needs unless it would cause undue hardship."
Quoted from the Ontario Human Rights Code. January 31, 2014.

Steve says AGAIN, KYLE, I'LL
GET YOU TO FOLLOW UP ON THAT,
INASMUCH AS, IF A TRANS PERSON
OR SOMEBODY WHOSE GENDER
IDENTITY WAS MORE, SHALL WE SAY,
COMPLICATED THAN THE MALE-FEMALE
THAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT SO
FAR, AND THE PRONOUN USED TO
DESCRIBE THAT PERSON WERE NOT
TRADITIONAL, WOULD THE PERSON
HAVE A CASE BEFORE THE HUMAN
RIGHTS COMMISSION?

Kyle says SO WE HAVEN'T
SEEN CASES ON THAT AT THIS
POINT, BUT I WOULD SAY
ABSOLUTELY, AS A GENERAL RULE
THAT YOU SHOULD BE THINKING
ABOUT IN TERMS OF EMPLOYMENT
SETTINGS, ABSOLUTELY RESPECTING
A TRANS PERSON'S PRONOUN CHOICE
IS REALLY FUNDAMENTAL, AND I CAN
ALSO SAY THAT IN LOTS OF
CIRCUMSTANCES, A PRONOUN MAY NOT
EVEN BE REQUIRED.
THERE ARE LOTS OF CREATIVE WAYS
TO AVOID USING GENDER PRONOUNS
AT ALL.
SO I THINK THAT... BUT WHEN YOU
ACTUALLY LOOK AT THE CASES THAT
ARE COMING BEFORE TRIBUNALS,
WE'RE NOT SEEING THAT TO BE
REALLY THE PRIMARY ISSUE.
IT'S MUCH MORE BASIC HUMAN
RIGHTS QUESTIONS, WHICH IS WHAT
THE FEDERAL LEGISLATION HERE,
BILL C-16, TRIES TO ACCOMPLISH.

Steve says ALL RIGHT.
I THINK WE'VE SET THE TABLE NOW.
YOU WANT TO GET IN ON THIS NOW,
I CAN TELL.
YOU'VE HEARD WHAT THE PROFESSOR
HAS HAD TO SAY.
WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE?

Jordan says WELL, I
DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THE CLAIM
THAT THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS
BIOLOGICAL SEX MEANS, AND I
CERTAINLY THINK IT'S... LET'S
CALL IT AN ERROR TO SUGGEST THAT
THERE'S SOME SORT OF SCIENTIFIC
CONSENSUS ABOUT THAT.
I MEAN, THERE'S BIOLOGICAL
DIFFERENCES BETWEEN MALES AND
FEMALES IN ANIMALS AND HUMAN
BEINGS AT EVERY LEVEL OF
ANALYSIS, FROM...

Steve says I'M JUMPING IN HERE.
WHAT ABOUT THE NOTION HE PUT
FORWARD AT THE END THERE, THAT
IF YOU DO NOT REFER TO PEOPLE
WITH THE PRONOUN THAT THEY
PREFER TO BE REFERRED TO, THAT
IS A FORM, ACCORDING TO THE
HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION, OF
DISCRIMINATION?

Jordan says IT'S NOT
JUST A FORM OF DISCRIMINATION,
IT'S A FORM OF HATE SPEECH.
THAT'S WHY I MADE THE VIDEO.
I SAID THAT WE WERE IN DANGER OF
PLACING THE REFUSAL TO USE
CERTAIN KINDS OF LANGUAGE INTO
THE SAME CATEGORY AS HOLOCAUST
DENIAL AND SUGGESTED THAT MAYBE
THAT WASN'T SUCH A GOOD IDEA,
ESPECIALLY SINCE THERE'S PLENTY
OF DEBATE TO BE HAD ABOUT GENDER
ISSUES IN OUR SOCIETY, WHICH I
ALSO THINK ARE ALSO IN DANGER OF
BECOMING ILLEGAL AND QUITE
RAPIDLY.
SO IT ISN'T CLEAR TO ME HOW LONG
WE'LL BE ABLE TO HAVE THE TALK
WE'RE HAVING RIGHT NOW.

Kyle says CAN I JUMP IN ON THERE... I
THINK IT'S A COMMON
MISCONCEPTION ABOUT BILL C-16,
THAT IT'S SOMEHOW GOING TO MAKE
PRONOUN USE INTO HATE SPEECH.
IF YOU ACTUALLY LOOK AT THE
PROVISIONS, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
VERY MINOR AMENDMENTS TO THE
CRIMINAL CODE...

Jordan says THEY'RE
NOT MINOR.
THEY PUT IT INTO THE HATE SPEECH
CATEGORY.
THEY'RE NOT MINOR AT ALL.
THAT'S A MISSTATEMENT.
DON'T TELL ME THEY'RE MINOR.
THAT'S NOT RIGHT.

Kyle says SO SECTION...
PARDON ME.
SO SECTION 318 SETS OUT A SERIES
OF IDENTIFIABLE GROUPS, AND
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE CLEAREST
OF CASES.
THE CASES OF ADVOCATING
GENOCIDE.
WE HAVE A SERIES OF GROUPS THAT
ARE ALREADY IDENTIFIED IN THE
CODE, AND ALL THIS DOES IS ADD
GENDER IDENTITY AND GENDER
EXPRESSION TO THE CATEGORIES
THAT ARE ALREADY IDENTIFIED.
AND SO I THINK WE REALLY HAVE TO
ADD SOME REASONABLENESS TO THIS
DISCUSSION.
ACTUALLY CLEARLY ARTICULATE WHAT
THE PROVISION DOES.

Steve says LET ME BE A LITTLE
CLEARER ABOUT WHAT SOME OF THE
PROBLEMS... WHAT YOU MIGHT BE
ASKING FOR IF YOU WANT TO DO
THIS.
FOR EXAMPLE, AND, SHELDON,
BOTTOM OF PAGE 3 HERE.
LET'S PUT THIS GRAPHIC UP.

Another quote appears on screen, under the title "No jail!" The quote reads "Pronoun misuse may become actionable, through the Human Rights Tribunals and courts. And the remedies? Monetary damages, non-financial remedies (for example, ceasing the discriminatory practice or reinstatement to job) and public interest remedies (for example, changing hiring practices or developing non-discriminatory policies and procedures). Jail time is not one of them."
Quoted from Brenda Crossman, sds.utoronto.ca, October 2016.

Steve says JORDAN, YOU'RE NOT
GOING TO GO TO JAIL IF YOU KEEP
THIS UP.
DO YOU FIND THAT REASSURING?

Jordan says WHAT IF I
DON'T PAY THE FINE?

Steve says THEN WHAT?

Jordan says THEN WHAT?
AND LET'S TALK ABOUT THE
LEGALITIES FOR A MINUTE.
AS YOU KNOW, THE UNIVERSITY OF
TORONTO SENT ME TWO WARNING
LETTERS, RIGHT?
AND THE SECOND ONE BASICALLY
ASKED ME TO STOP TALKING ABOUT
THIS.

Steve says WHO SENT THE
LETTERS?

Jordan says THE
FIRST... IT'S THE
ADMINISTRATION, FUNDAMENTALLY,
THE HIGHER-UP PEOPLE IN THE
ADMINISTRATION.
THE LAST ONE WAS THE DEAN OF THE
FACULTY OF ARTS AND SCIENCE.
BUT, YOU KNOW, IT'S COMING FROM
THE TOP END OF THE UNIVERSITY.

Steve says AND THE LETTER SAID
ESSENTIALLY YOU MUST CALL PEOPLE
BY THE PRONOUNS THEY WANT?

Jordan says THE
LETTERS BASICALLY SAID THAT...
AND THIS IS PARAPHRASING,
OBVIOUSLY... THAT I'M REQUIRED
TO ABIDE BY THE UNIVERSITY
POLICIES AND THE ONTARIO HUMAN
RIGHTS CODE.
THERE'S A STRONG IMPLICATION IN
THE LETTER, BY HAVING THIS
DISCUSSION, THAT I WASN'T DOING
SO.
AND THEY'RE ASKING ME TO STOP.
AND I CAN TELL YOU ALSO WHY
THEY'RE TELLING ME TO STOP APART
FROM THAT.
THE CODES AS WRITTEN MAKE THE
UNIVERSITY JUST AS LIABLE FOR MY
SPEECH AS I AM.
SO NOT ONLY IS THERE A
REASONABLE POSSIBILITY THAT WHAT
I'M DOING IS UTTERING HATE
SPEECH NOW UNDER OUR LAW, BUT
THE UNIVERSITY IS LEGALLY
RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT.
AND SO I THINK THEY CONSULTED
WITH THEIR LAWYERS AND DECIDED
THAT MAYBE THE CLAIM THAT I WAS
MAKING IN MY VIDEO WAS CORRECT,
THAT... AND SO I DON'T REGARD
THAT AS TRIVIAL, AND I THINK THE
LAWYER WHO IS DISCUSSING THIS IS
DOWNPLAYING THE SIGNIFICANCE OF
IT TREMENDOUSLY.

Nicholas says CAN I SPEAK
TO THE CLIMATE OF THIS BECAUSE I
DON'T AGREE WHICH DR. PETERSON
HAS BEEN ASKED TO STOP ABUSING
STUDENTS ON CAMPUS.

Jordan says TO STOP WHAT?

Nicholas says ABUSING
STUDENTS AND OTHERS IN OUR
COMMUNITY WHO DESERVE RESPECT
AND TO LEARN AND CONTRIBUTE TO
SOCIETY IN A PLACE WHERE, IF
THEY ARE PHYSICALLY ASSAULTED,
IF THEY ARE...

Jordan says THE
ASSAULT SO FAR CAME FROM THE
SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIORS WHO WERE
AT THE FREE SPEECH RALLY AND
ALMOST TWO MILLION PEOPLE HAVE
WATCHED IT SO FAR.

Nicholas says THIS IS NOT
ACCURATE.

Jordan says WELL, YOU
CAN LOOK AT THE VIDEOS YOURSELF.

Nicholas says BECAUSE
PEOPLE HAVE BEEN MAKING
COMPLAINTS ABOUT YOUR BEHAVIOUR.

Jordan says YES, I
UNDERSTAND THAT.

Steve says CAN I JUST BE CLEAR
ON SOMETHING HERE...

Nicholas says THE
OPPORTUNITY FOR SOCIAL JUSTICE
HAPPENING, WHAT MANY PEOPLE
WON'T UNDERSTAND.

Steve says NICK, CAN I BE CLEAR
OF SOMETHING?
YOU'VE ACCUSED HIM OF ABUSING
STUDENTS BY NOT USING PRONOUNS.

Nicholas says THAT'S HOW
I SEE IT.

Steve says THAT IS TANTAMOUNT
TO ABUSE, IN YOUR VIEW?

Nicholas says ABSOLUTELY.
MANY...

Jordan says IS IT
TANTAMOUNT TO VIOLENCE?

Nicholas says YES.

Jordan says HOW ABOUT
HATE SPEECH?

Nicholas says OF COURSE
IT'S HATE SPEECH.
YOU WON'T REFER TO THEM IN A WAY
THAT RECOGNIZES THEIR HUMANITY
AND DIGNITY.

Steve says MARY, LET ME GET YOU
IN ON THIS AT THIS POINT.

Mary says SURE.

Steve says DO YOU HAVE
SOMETHING THAT YOU WANT TO SAY
OR CAN I PUT A QUESTION TO YOU?

Mary says BOTH.

Steve says YOU'RE A WRITER.
I KNOW YOU CARE ABOUT FREE
SPEECH BECAUSE YOU'RE A WRITER.

Mary says YES.

Steve says DOES JORDAN PETERSON
HAVE A LITTLE PLACE IN YOUR
HEART BECAUSE HE'S ARGUING FREE
SPEECH HERE?

Mary says THE INTERESTING
THING ABOUT JORDAN AND HOW I
FEEL ABOUT HIS VIDEO AND JORDAN
AND I ACTUALLY HAD AN
OPPORTUNITY TO TALK AT LENGTH
BEFORE I WROTE THE WALRUS
ARTICLE, AND HE SAILS VERY CLOSE
TO THINGS THAT PEOPLE CAN RELATE
TO AND I THINK WE ALL WANT TO
HAVE AN OPEN DISCOURSE, WE WANT
CONVERSATIONS TO UNFOLD, WE WANT
PEOPLE TO FEEL, IF THEY HAVE
SOMETHING TO SAY, IF THEY HAVE A
QUESTION, THEY CAN ASK IT,
THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE CENSORED
BUT HE SAILS CLOSE AND RIGHT
PAST IT AND THAT'S WHERE HE AND
I PART WAYS.
WHAT I DON'T REALLY UNDERSTAND
IS WHEN YOU LISTEN TO THE VIDEO,
HE PILES A LOT OF THINGS INTO
THE BASKET OF USING THE PRONOUNS
THAT PEOPLE WANT, AND IT SEEMS
TO ME... AND YOU CAN CORRECT ME
IF I'M WRONG... BUT ONE OF HIS
ANXIETIES, AND HE TALKS ABOUT
BEING FEARFUL AND ANXIOUS IN HIS
VIDEO, THAT SOMEHOW THERE'S A
CABAL OF TRANS ACTIVISTS THAT
HAVE SO MUCH POWER THAT THEY'RE
GOING TO BASICALLY, YOU KNOW,
USING THE PRONOUNS THAT PEOPLE
WANT AND CAPITULATING TO THESE
DEMANDS SORT OF PULLS OUT THE
CRITICAL GENGA PIECE OF THE
WESTERN CANNON, BASICALLY JORDAN
IS ARGUING THIS IS GOING TO
CREATE CHAOS AND ANARCHY AND
IT'S ESSENTIALLY A MARXIST PLOT
THAT IS THERE TO SOW VIOLENCE
AND THERE TO SOW CONFUSION AND
TOPPLE ANY KIND OF HIERARCHY.

Steve says CAN I JUST JUMP IN
THERE FOR A SECOND?
IS THAT AN ACCURATE
CHARACTERIZATION?

Mary says I LISTENED
CLOSELY TO THAT TAPE.
I THINK IT IS.

Steve says HAS SHE ACCURATELY
CHARACTERIZED WHERE YOU'RE
COMING FROM?

The caption changes to "Free speech versus social justice."

Jordan says IT'S NOT A
TRANSSEXUAL CABAL BY ANY STRETCH
OF THE IMAGINATION.
IS IT A CABAL OF RADICAL LEFT
WINGERS?
YES, IT IS.
THEY'VE BEEN ACTIVE BEHIND AND
IN FRONT OF THE SCENES
INCREASINGLY OVER THE LAST 30
YEARS.
AND MY ESTIMATION IS THAT
DEPARTMENTS LIKE WOMEN'S STUDIES
HAVE TRAINED BETWEEN 300,000 AND
3 MILLION RADICAL LEFT-WING
ACTIVISTS AND THEY'RE...

Mary says AND THEY'RE ALL
UNDERPAID, SO DON'T WORRY.

Jordan says THEY COULD
PICK HIGHER PAYING OCCUPATIONS
IF THEY WANTED HIGHER PAYING
OCCUPATIONS.

Nicholas says BECAUSE
SEXISM DOES NOT EXIST.
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

Steve says LET'S NOT GET
OFF-TOPIC HERE, FOLKS.

Nicholas says THAT'S
DEFINITELY ON POINT...

Mary says I THINK JORDAN
HAS CONCEDED... I THINK I HAVE
GRASPED HIS CONCERN, AT THE VERY
LEAST I'VE GRASPED HIS CONCERN
AND THERE IS A KIND OF CHIPPING
AWAY AT ORDER AS WE'VE COME TO
KNOW IT.
THE OTHER THING JORDAN AND I
HAVE IN COMMON IS A REAL
INTEREST IN LANGUAGE AND THE
IDEA OF WHAT CAN HAPPEN WHEN
LANGUAGE CHANGES, WHEN IT
EVOLVES, AND, YOU KNOW, I WAS
THINKING, BEFORE I CAME HERE, I
WAS THINKING ABOUT... I GREW UP
IN THE BRONX AND I WAS BORN IN
'61, SO I REMEMBER VERY WELL
WHEN WE WENT FROM MRS. TO
MS. AND MY FATHER WAS APPALLED
AND HE KEPT SAYING, MS. , AND HE
THOUGHT THAT WAS FUNNY, BECAUSE
IF YOU COULDN'T ACTUALLY
IDENTIFY SOMEBODY AS EITHER,
PARTICULARLY A FEMALE, AS EITHER
MARRIED OR SINGLE, THEN CHAOS,
RIGHT?

Steve says IT IS APPARENTLY VERY CONFUSING
AND I'M REMINDED OF THAT, WHEN
THE SUGGESTION IS MADE THAT
SOMEHOW, IF WE HAVE WORDS THAT
DON'T FIT INTO SOMETHING THAT
WE'RE VERY FAMILIAR WITH AND
THAT WE'VE USED TO DATE, THAT
CHAOS WILL ENSUE, THAT EVERYONE
WILL BE CONFUSED.
I DON'T BELIEVE THAT.
THERE'S NO EVIDENCE OF THAT
HISTORICALLY.

Steve says I HEAR YOU.
BUT THERE WAS NO LAW OBLIGING
PEOPLE TO USE...

Mary says BUT THERE WERE
LAWS TO OBLIGE PEOPLE TO CHANGE
THE WAY THAT WE REFERRED TO
BLACK PEOPLE, FOR EXAMPLE.
YOU KNOW, THERE WAS A TIME WHEN
THERE WERE ANY NUMBER OF WORDS
THAT WE CAN NOW ONLY SAY AS
LETTERS... CAN I SAY THEM ON
TVO?
PEOPLE WERE CALLED DARKIES,
NIGGERS, COONS, IN POLITE
COMPANY.
THAT EVOLVED.
THOSE THINGS CHANGED.
WHEN I WAS A TEENAGER, PEOPLE
WERE STILL USING THOSE WORDS.

Steve says THIS IS A NATURAL
EVOLUTION, IN YOUR VIEW?

Mary says THIS IS A
NATURAL EVOLUTION AND CHAOS WILL
NOT ENSUE.

Jordan says IF IT'S A
NATURAL EVOLUTION, WE DON'T NEED
HATE SPEECH LAWS TO ENFORCE IT.

Mary says OBVIOUSLY WE DO.
WE CAN DRIVE SOCIAL CHANGE AND
IT DOESN'T ALL HAVE TO LEAD TO
CHAOS, IS MY POINT.
WE HAVE SEEN THE FLIP SIDE OF
JORDAN'S ARGUMENT, I THINK, WE
DO HAVE AN HISTORICAL RECORD OF
THAT, SO WHEN IT WAS LEFT TO
OTHERS TO NAME PEOPLE, WE LOST
INDIGENOUS NAMES.
I COME FROM... MY MOTHER IS FROM
IRELAND.
SHE WAS FROM A GENERATION WHO
FINALLY GOT TO LEARN HER OWN
LANGUAGE AGAIN.
SHE COULDN'T SPEAK GAELIC TO HER
PARENTS BECAUSE THEY HADN'T BEEN
ALLOWED TO SPEAK IT.
WE'VE SEEN THE EFFECT WHEN
PEOPLE CAN'T USE THEIR OWN
LANGUAGE, WHEN THEY CAN'T USE
THEIR OWN NAMES.

Steve says LET ME GET JORDAN TO
RESPOND TO THAT.
A NATURAL EVOLUTION.

Jordan says LOOK,
WORDS ARE TOOLS.
MAYBE THAT WAS ONE OF THE GREAT
PHILOSOPHICAL DISCOVERIES OF THE
20TH CENTURY.
AND THAT MEANS... AND PEOPLE ARE
ALWAYS LOOKING FOR NEW TOOLS TO
OPERATE IN THE WORLD.
AND IF YOU INVENT A GOOD TOOL,
LIKE A NEW WORD, THEN PEOPLE
WILL PICK IT UP JUST AS FAST AS
THEY POSSIBLY CAN.
YOU REALLY SEE THAT IN ENGLISH.
BUT THE WORDS THAT ARE BEING
REQUIRED NOW ARE NOT GOOD TOOLS
AND THAT'S WHY PEOPLE AREN'T
USING THEM.
AND SO INSTEAD WHAT WE HAVE IS
THE USE OF FORCE DESPITE THE
FACT THAT THAT'S BEING DENIED,
ALTHOUGH WE'VE ALREADY
ESTABLISHED THAT AT LEAST IN THE
OPINION OF ONE OF THE PEOPLE ON
THIS PANEL, I'M ALREADY GUILTY
OF A HATE CRIME, WHICH IS WHAT I
SAID I WAS GUILTY OF WHEN I MADE
THAT VIDEO.
STEVE, THE ISSUE WITH THE LAW IS
QUITE STRAIGHTFORWARD.
THE GOVERNMENT IS RESPONDING...
IS REQUIRING US TO USE CERTAIN
LANGUAGE.
THAT'S NOT THE SAME AS NOT USING
CERTAIN LANGUAGE.
AND IT'S A LINE... AND THIS IS
THE FUNDAMENTAL ISSUE.
THIS IS MAYBE THE FUNDAMENTAL
ISSUE.
THAT'S A LINE WE SHOULD NOT
CROSS.
WE SHOULD NOT ALLOW THE
GOVERNMENT TO DECIDE WHICH WORDS
WE'RE ALLOWED TO USE.
IT'S A MISTAKE.
AND IT'S A MISTAKE THAT STRIKES
RIGHT AT THE HEART OF FREE
SPEECH, AND THE THING ABOUT FREE
SPEECH IS THAT IT'S NOT THE
RIGHT TO CRITICIZE YOUR LEADERS,
WHICH IS WHAT PEOPLE USUALLY
CHARACTERIZE IT AS.
FREE SPEECH IS FREEDOM TO ENGAGE
IN THE PROS SELVES THAT WE USE
TO... PROCESSES WE USE TO
FORMULATE THE PROBLEMS IN OUR
SOCIETY, TO GENERATE SOLUTIONS
TO THEM AND REACH A CONSENSUS.
IT'S ACTUALLY A MECHANISM.
IT'S NOT JUST ANOTHER VALUE.
YOU SHOULD PUT CONSTRAINTS ON
FREE SPEECH WITH THE MOST
EXTREME CAUTION BECAUSE YOU
INTERFERE WITH PEOPLE'S ABILITY
TO THINK AND COMMUNICATE.

Steve says LET ME GET THERYN TO
WEIGH IN.
YOU'VE BEEN HEARING THE DEBATE
IN THE STUDIO.
WHY DON'T YOU WEIGH IN AND PICK
IT UP?

Theryn says I GUESS I'M
IN THE SAME BOAT AS DR. PETERSON
WHEN IT COMES TO BEING GUILTY OF
A HATE CRIME OR, SORRY, HATE
SPEECH INFRINGEMENT BECAUSE, I
MEAN, I DRAW THE LAW SOMEWHERE.
FOR EXAMPLE, I REFUSE TO USE
PRONOUNS LIKE THESE AND THEIR.
I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM USING
THEY AND THEIR PRONOUNCE AND
THAT MAY BE BECAUSE OF THE
CIRCLES I'M IN, I KNOW PEOPLE
WHO USE GENDER NEUTRAL
PRONOUNCE, I'VE GOTTEN USED TO
IT.
BUT THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE
ARE NOT GOING TO COME INTO
CONTACT WITH THE INCREDIBLY
SMALL FRACTION OF THE POPULATION
OF GENDER NON-BINARY PEOPLE.
AND THAT'S WHY THIS... IT'S
NEVER REALLY GOING TO PICK UP,
IN MY OPINION, WHEN IT COMES TO
MRS. AND MS. , AT LEAST HALF OF
THE POPULATION IS FEMALE, SO
THERE WAS SOME INTERACTION WITH
THE TERM MRS. VERSUS MS. .
AND THERE WERE SOME INTERACTIONS
SO PEOPLE COULD PICK IT UP.
THERE AREN'T ENOUGH GENDER
NON-BINARY, I USE THAT IN
QUOTATION MARKS BECAUSE I HATE
THAT TERM BECAUSE IT'S A
POLITICAL TERM, NOT A GENDER
IDENTITY OR A TERM OF
IDENTIFICATION, IT'S JUST A
POLITICAL TERM THAT, REGARDLESS,
I DON'T THINK IT'S GOING TO PICK
UP.
THERE'S JUST NOT ENOUGH OF THESE
PEOPLE TO INTERACT WITH.

Steve says THE TWITTERSPHERE
HAS BEEN BUZZING WITH THIS
CONVERSATION.
LET'S PULL UP ONE TWEET.
THIS WAS TWEETED TO A NUMBER OF
PEOPLE, AS YOU CAN SEE IN THE
MIDDLE, JORDAN PETERSON WHO IS
ON OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT...

A slate pops up showing a tablet with a tweet on it. The tweet is by Morgane Oger and reads "I so look forward to #billC16 putting your kind of silly trolling to an end."

Steve says THERE ARE PEOPLE,
LET'S GO TO PROFESSOR KYLE IN
OTTAWA.
THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO
HOPE THAT C-16 LIVES UP TO
JORDAN'S WORST FEARS.
DO YOU AGREE THAT C-16 OUGHT TO
BE ABLE TO PREVENT PEOPLE FROM
EXPRESSING NEGATIVE OPINIONS
ABOUT TRANSGENDER PEOPLE?

The caption changes to "Kyle Kirkup, @kylekirkup."

Kyle says FIRST I WANT
TO CLARIFY THAT BILL C-16 ONLY
APPLIES TO FEDERALLY REGULATED
ENTITIES.
FOR EXAMPLE, THE UNIVERSITY OF
TORONTO IS UNDER PROVINCIAL
JURISDICTION, SO IS THEREFORE
SUBJECT TO THE ONTARIO HUMAN
RIGHTS CODE.
I THINK THAT'S AN IMPORTANT
POINT TO NOTE.
I ALSO WANT TO NOTE, THERE'S
BEEN A LOT OF TALK ABOUT HATE
CRIMES.
IT SEEMS TO BE LIKE KIND OF AN
AMERICAN IMPORT INTO OUR
DISCUSSION.
THE ONLY TWO CHANGES THAT THIS
BILL C-16 MAKE ARE TO MAKE MINOR
AMENDMENTS TO SECTION 318 AND
718 OF THE CRIMINAL CODE.
THE FIRST IS ADVOCATING
GENOCIDE.
AS I'VE TALKED ABOUT, A VERY,
VERY EXTREME, HIGH STANDARD.
AND SECOND OFF, AT SENTENCING,
AFTER AN OFFENCE HAS BEEN
COMMITTED AND A PERSON HAS BEEN
FOUND GUILTY, WHAT 718 DOES IS
IT TELLS JUDGES THAT THEY OUGHT
TO TREAT HATE MOTIVATION AS AN
AGGRAVATING FACTOR AT
SENTENCING, TO TREAT THAT AS A
MORE SEVERE FORM.
CURRENTLY WE HAVE A SERIES OF
IDENTITIES THAT ARE SET OUT IN
718, THINGS LIKE SEXUAL
ORIENTATION, RACE.
WE DON'T HAVE CURRENTLY GENDER
IDENTITY AND GENDER EXPRESSION
THERE.
I JUST WANT TO MAKE IT VERY
CLEAR THAT WE OUGHT NOT TO BE
IMPORTING AMERICAN CONCEPTS INTO
THE DISCUSSION HERE.

Steve says UNDERSTOOD.

Kyle says SO TO THE
EXTENT THAT BILL C-16 MAKES
CHANGES, ONLY TO, IN THE
CANADIAN HUMAN RIGHTS ACT
CONTEXT, TWO FEDERALLY REGULATED
ENTITIES, WHICH IS NOT THE
UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO.

Steve says NICHOLAS, LET ME
FOLLOW UP WITH YOU.
WHY, IN YOUR VIEW, DO YOU THINK
THE TRANS COMMUNITY NEEDS THIS
SORT OF LEGISLATIVE PROTECTION?

Nicholas says THANK YOU.
THAT'S BASICALLY THE POINT THAT
HASN'T BEEN RAISED HERE WHICH IS
THAT PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY
SUFFERING HUGE LACK OF ACCESS TO
RESOURCES THAT WILL ALLOW PEOPLE
TO SURVIVE.
SO PEOPLE ARE BEING PHYSICALLY
ASSAULTED.
PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE COUNSELLORS
THAT THEY CAN GO TO WHO ARE NOT
GOING TO, AS DR. PETERSON HAS
DONE ON YouTube, RECOMMEND
THAT THEY ACTUALLY BECOME MORE
ANXIOUS AND MORE UPSET ABOUT
SITUATIONS.
PEOPLE ARE BEING ASSAULTED.
I BROUGHT ALL SORTS OF REALLY
DEPRESSING STATS THAT PEOPLE WHO
ARE LEANING TOWARDS THINKING
THAT THIS IS NOT THAT BIG OF A
DEAL, THOSE PEOPLE NEED TO LOOK
AT THOSE STATS.

Steve says GIVE US ONE STAT.

Nicholas says YEAH.
SO 58 percent OF STUDENTS COULD NOT GET
ACADEMIC TRANSCRIPTS WITH THEIR
CORRECT NAME OR PRONOUN.
THAT CAUSES A HUGE CHAIN OF
EVENTS FOR STUDENTS OR ANYBODY
WHO HAS HAD ANY KIND OF ACADEMIC
TRAINING.
AS EVERYONE RECOGNIZES, WE NEED
TO BE ABLE TO HAVE REFERENCES,
WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO HAVE
Résumés, WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO
GET JOBS.

Steve says I WANT TO BE SURE
THAT I'M CLEAR... I'M CLEARLY
UNDERSTANDING YOUR POINT HERE,
WHICH IS, AND THEREFORE THEY
FEEL DISRESPECTED AND THEREFORE
THIS AFFECTS THEIR LIFE IN A
VERY REAL WAY?
IS THAT RIGHT?

Nicholas says THE FEELING
OF DISRESPECT IS NOT AS
IMPORTANT AS THE WAYS THAT
PEOPLE IN AUTHORITY ARE ABLE TO
CIRCUMVENT THE POSSIBILITIES FOR
LIVING.
SO IT HAS MORE TO DO WITH NOT
BEING ABLE TO FIND HOUSING AND
THEREFORE BEING HOMELESS, HAVE
MORE TO DO WITH NOT BEING ABLE
TO GET JOBS BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE
DISCRIMINATED AGAINST.
SO WE'RE NOT ACTUALLY... WE
SHOULDN'T BE TALKING ABOUT FREE
SPEECH.
WHAT WE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT
ARE THE SOCIAL ISSUES FACING
PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING
DISCRIMINATED AGAINST AND WHAT
THAT LOOKS LIKE ON CAMPUS, WHICH
IS THAT SOME PROFESSORS REFUSE
TO OFFER BASIC DIGNITY TO
STUDENTS AND COLLEAGUES, AND
THAT LEADS TO PEOPLE MISSING
CLASSES, IT LEADS TO PEOPLE
DROPPING OUT, IT LEADS TO A LACK
OF POSITIVE OPPORTUNITY FOR
SOCIETY TO ACTUALLY BENEFIT FROM
THE CONTRIBUTIONS OF MANY, MANY
PEOPLE.
AND I ALSO DON'T TEACH THAT
THERE'S A HUGE DIVIDE BETWEEN
TRANS AND NON-TRANS PEOPLE,
BECAUSE I WOULD SAY THAT
100 PERCENT OF PEOPLE WILL
BENEFIT FROM MORE OPEN discussion.
And one of the problems is that it's being addressed in a black and white way.

Steve says Well here's somebody who did not share your view on that. We invited another guest and this person initially said yes and then sent a Facebook message to our producer saying, I changed my mind.

Another quote appears on screen, under the title "No platform for Peterson." The quote reads "Giving Jordan Peterson this platform serves to legitimize his views which are based in bigotry and misinformation. The humanity and rights of transgender, non-binary and intersex people are not a matter of debate, and holding a debate which places a false equivalency between the views expressed by Peterson and the human rights concerns of the trans community would be an act of transphobia. Therefore none of us wish to participate in this."
Anonymous. Facebook. October 24, 2016.

Steve says Do we have two different groups that are trying to make two different points and they find themselves in the same bowl of soup
AND THAT'S WHY THIS HAS TURNED
INTO THE CONFLAGRATION IT HAS?

Jordan says IT'S
PARTLY THAT BECAUSE THE ISSUES
WE'RE DISCUSSING HAVE TO CENTRE
ON ACTUAL ISSUES AND THEY SEEM
TO BE CENTERING ON THE ISSUE
SURROUNDING TRANSGENDER
LANGUAGE.
BUT I DON'T THINK WE'RE TALKING
PAST EACH OTHER AT ALL IN A
FUNDAMENTAL SENSE.
I MEAN, I THINK THAT THE REAL
PROBLEM HERE IS THAT THERE'S A
CONCERTED ATTEMPT MADE... BEING
MADE BY MANY PEOPLE TO SUBVERT
ALL VALUES TO THE VALUE OF
EQUALITY OF OUTCOME.
WE NEED MORE THAN ONE VALUE,
FIRST OF ALL, IF WE'RE GOING TO
SURVIVE AS A SOCIETY, BECAUSE
YOU CAN'T SOLVE EVERY PROBLEM
WITH THE SAME APPROACH.
BUT THERE ARE MORE INSIDIOUS
THINGS, IN MY ESTIMATION, GOING
ON UNDERNEATH.
EVEN THE MISSIVE THAT YOU JUST
READ SAID THAT... WELL, EVEN
PROVIDING ME WITH A PLATFORM,
LET'S CALL IT, TO EXPRESS MY
VIEWS, IS SOMETHING THAT
SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED.
IT'S LIKE, YES, THAT'S WHY I
MADE THE VIDEO, IS BECAUSE MANY
PEOPLE ARE CLAIMING THAT THE
EXPRESSION OF THESE SORTS OF
VIEWS SHOULD NO LONGER BE
PERMITTED AND IT'S THIS VIEW FOR
NOW, BUT THIS IS A MINOR ISSUE
IN SOME WAYS COMPARED TO THE
LARGER ISSUE THAT'S AT STAKE,
WHICH IS THERE ARE RIGHTS TO
HAVE THIS SORT OF DISCUSSION...
I MEAN, ONE THING THAT HAPPENED
JUST WHEN WE STARTED THIS, THERE
WAS AN INITIAL CLAIM THAT
THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS
BIOLOGICAL SEX.
I BELIEVE QUITE FIRMLY THAT IF
WE CONTINUE ON OUR PRESENT PATH
AT THE UNIVERSITIES FOR FIVE
MORE YEARS, THAT'S A DISCUSSION
WE WILL NOT ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO
HAVE ON CAMPUSES.

Steve says BECAUSE IT'LL BE...

Jordan says BY FIAT.
THE LEGISLATION ALREADY
IMPLICITLY PRESUMES THAT
BIOLOGICAL SEX, GENDER IDENTITY
AND GENDER EXPRESSION, WHICH WE
HAVEN'T EVEN TALKED ABOUT YET,
VARY RIPPED PENALTY.
THAT IS...

Steve says SOME THINK WE'RE
I WONDER IF YOU COULD GIVE YOUR
EXPLANATION AS TO WHY SOME
PEOPLE ADAMANTLY REFUSE EVEN TO
HAVE THIS DISCUSSION, THAT THE
NOTION OF HAVING THIS DISCUSSION
IS SOMEHOW TRANSPHOBIC?

Theryn says I THINK IT
HAS TO DO WITH... THERE'S A
LACKING WHEN IT COMES TO
ACTUALLY BEING ABLE TO DEFEND
YOUR POINTS THROUGH ARGUMENT.
SO IF YOU OFFER UP A DISCUSSION
FOR ARGUMENT, THEY KNOW THEY
WILL LOSE.
I THINK IT'S ABSOLUTELY
LUDICROUS AND INSANE TO SAY THAT
HAVING THIS DISCUSSION IS BY
DEFAULT TRANSPHOBIC.
I THINK IT'S EQUALLY LUDICROUS
TO CALL DR. PETERSON BY WHAT HE
SAID TRANSPHOBIC.
I THINK USING THAT TERM SO
WILLY-NILLY IT TAKES THE
REMOTIONAL RESPONSE AND CONNOTES
IN MY OPINION AS HAVING AN OPEN
DISCUSSIONS AND I THINK THAT'S
INSIDIOUS AND MANIPULATIVE.

Steve says KYLE, ARE WE BEING
TRANSPHOBIC BY HAVING THIS DEBATE?

Kyle says I DO WORRY
ABOUT SETTING UP A FALSE
EQUIVALENCY IN THIS CONVERSATION
AND THAT TRANS LIVES AREN'T UP
FOR DEBATE.
I'VE BEEN TROUBLED BY THE
MISINFORMATION ABOUT WHAT THE
LAW IS ACTUALLY GOING TO DO.
I GRAPPLED WITH WHETHER OR NOT I
WANTED TO PART PATE IN THIS
DISCUSSION... PARTICIPATE IN
THIS DISCUSSION, BUT I THOUGHT
IT WAS IMPORTANT TO DIAL BACK
THE HATEFUL RHETORIC AND DO A
CAREFUL DISCUSSION ABOUT WHAT
THE LAW IS DESIGNED TO ACHIEVE
AND ULTIMATELY TO PROMOTE A MORE
EQUITABLE AND JUST SOCIETY.
WE'VE TALKED ABOUT FREEDOM OF
EXPRESSION, TO USE THE CANADIAN
TERM.
WE SHOULD ALSO BE TALKING ABOUT
OTHER VALUES LIKE EQUALITY AND
ANTI-RACISM, I THINK.

Steve says JUST CURIOUS, MARY,
I'M GOING TO GET TO YOU IN ONE
SEC.
YOU'VE PARTICIPATED IN
90 PERCENT OF THE PROGRAM, WE'RE
JUST ABOUT DONE.
WAS IT A GOOD IDEA FOR YOU TO
COME ON?

Kyle says I THINK IT'S
AN OPPORTUNITY TO TRY TO WORK
THROUGH SOME OF THE LEGAL
ISSUES, THE SOCIAL AND HUMAN
RIGHTS AND EQUALITY ISSUES, AND
SO I'M HAPPY TO BE HERE BUT I
RECOGNIZE THAT OTHER PEOPLE'S
EXPERIENCES, THEY MIGHT FIND
ULTIMATELY THAT PARTICIPATING IN
THIS PROGRAM WAS A MISTAKE.

Steve says MARY, IF YOU WOULD
FOLLOW UP?

Mary says I CERTAINLY
WANT TO SAY I FOUND, KYLE, THAT
WHAT YOU BROUGHT TO IT IN TERMS
OF PUTTING THE BILL INTO
PERSPECTIVE ACTUALLY REALLY
HELPFUL AND PROBABLY HELPFUL TO
A LOT OF PEOPLE, SO I'M GLAD
KYLE WAS HERE.
FOR ME ONE OF THE THINGS I FELT
ANXIOUS ABOUT COMING IN AND I'M
PUZZLING OVER, WHY THIS ISSUE?
WHY THIS ISSUE?
AND I DO THINK, AT THE RISK OF
BRINGING IN THE UNITED STATES
AGAIN, THERE DOES SEEM TO BE A
SIMILARITY BETWEEN SOME OF THE
RHETORIC WE'RE HEARING DOWN
SOUTH RIGHT NOW TO THE ELECTION
AND THIS.
IT FEELS LIKE IT'S GREATLY
EXAGGERATED, SORT OF WHAT WILL
FALL OUT FROM THIS, WHAT WILL...
AND WE'RE SORT OF... IT FEELS
LIKE A BIT OF A TEMPEST IN A
TEAPOT.
I DON'T SEE THE CONNECTIONS
JORDAN IS MAKING.
AND AS A PERSON WHO IDENTIFIES
AS TRANSGENDER, IT'S VERY, VERY
CONFUSING THAT THIS IS SOMEHOW
UP FOR DISCUSSION.

Steve says YOU SAW THE TAPE AT
THE BEGINNING OF THE PROGRAM OF
THE... I MEAN, HE TRIED TO GIVE
A SPEECH AT A UNIVERSITY CAMPUS
AND WAS REALLY QUITE MERCILESSLY
SHOUTED DOWN.

Mary says AND THAT WOULD
BE ONE OF THE PLACES WHERE
JORDAN AND I WOULD HAVE SOME
COMMON GROUND IN THAT THERE HAS
BEEN A TREND IN SOME WAYS FOR
PEOPLE TO ALLOW NO PLATFORMING
AND THIS PERSON'S VIEWS OR
OBJECTIONABLE AND WE DON'T WANT
THEM TO COME ON THE CAMPUS.

Steve says WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT?

Mary says I THINK IT'S
BEST NOT DISCUSSED IN THE
CONTEXT OF SOMEONE'S PERSONAL
IDENTITY.
THAT'S PART OF WHAT I'M BOTHERED
BY THIS DISCUSSION.

Steve says IF YOU CAN'T HAVE A
DISCUSSION ABOUT FREE SPEECH ON
A UNIVERSITY CAMPUS, THEN I
GUESS YOU CAN'T HAVE ONE,
BECAUSE THAT'S SUPPOSED TO BE
WHERE THEY HAPPEN, ISN'T IT?

Mary says I AGREE WITH YOU.
I THINK THAT THAT IS A PROBLEM.
WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY IS THOSE
ISSUES CAME UP AROUND ISSUES OF
SOMEONE WHO WAS PRO-ISRAEL WHO
WANTED TO COME ONTO A CAMPUS.
THOSE THINGS ARE POLITICAL.
MY IDENTITY, MY PERSONAL
IDENTITY, MY GENDER IDENTITY IS
VERY SEPARATE FROM MY POLITICAL
IDENTITY, SO IT'S VERY STRANGE
TO HAVE THIS TO BE WHERE WE'RE
GOING TO PLANT THE FLAG AND SAY
ENOUGH WITH THIS CRAZY POLITICAL
CORRECTNESS.
YOU DON'T GET TO CHOOSE YOUR
PRONOUN.
IT SEEMS TRIVIAL TO ME.

Jordan says I THOUGHT
IT WAS AN AXIOM OF FEMINISM, FOR
EXAMPLE, THAT THE PERSONAL IS
POLITICAL.
THAT'S A FAMOUS PHRASE, THE
PERSONAL IS POLITICAL.

Nicholas says THE
PERSONAL IS POLITICAL WHEN
SOMEONE IS ATTACKING YOU ON A
BASIS THAT IS PERSONAL AND THAT
YOU CAN'T CHANGE ABOUT YOURSELF.
THAT IS POLITICAL.
AND THAT'S WHEN PEOPLE SOMETIMES
BECOME POLITICIZED IS WHEN THEY
REALIZE THAT NO MATTER WHAT THEY
DO IN THE WORLD, THERE WILL BE
PEOPLE WHO WILL CONTINUE TO
ATTACK THEM ON RACIST GROUNDS,
ON GENDER AND SEXUAL VIOLENCE
GROUNDS, AND THAT'S WHY PEOPLE
START TO FIGHT BACK AND THAT'S
WHY PEOPLE OBJECT.

Jordan says AND YOUR
ATTEMPTS TO REGULATE MY LANGUAGE
USE...

Nicholas says I DON'T
CARE ABOUT YOUR LANGUAGE USE.
I CARE ABOUT THE SAFETY OF THE
PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING HARMED.

Jordan says I KNOW.
PEOPLE WHO MAKE YOUR KINDS OF
ARGUMENTS ARE ALWAYS CONCERNED
WITH OTHER PEOPLE'S SAFETY.

Nicholas says I'M
CONCERNED WITH MY OWN SAFETY.
JUST SO PEOPLE ARE AWARE, MY
PHYSICAL, EMOTIONAL LIFE AND
LIVELIHOOD IS AT RISK FROM BEING
HERE AND THAT'S NOT TRUE FOR
EVERYONE.
I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOURS.

Jordan says YOU KNOW
PERFECTLY WELL...

Nicholas says THAT'S ONE
OF THE MAJOR WAYS THAT YOU'RE
ABLE TO DO THIS.
BUT I JUST WANT PEOPLE TO BE
AWARE THAT TRANS AND GENDER
DIVERSE COMMUNITIES AND
ESPECIALLY PEOPLE OF COLOUR ARE
BEING TARGETED AND THREATENED
PHYSICALLY.
SO FREE SPEECH IS A GREAT IDEA
AND EQUALITY IS A GREAT IDEA,
BUT WE ACTUALLY CAN'T HAVE THOSE
CONVERSATIONS WHEN PEOPLE ARE
NOT EVEN ABLE TO BE PRESENT.

Steve says JORDAN, LET ME READ
THIS TWEET TO YOU AND I'LL GET
YOU TO RESPOND TO IT BECAUSE
IT'S INSTRUCTIVE OF THE
CONVERSATION THAT JUST TOOK
PLACE BETWEEN THE TWO OF YOU.

Another tweet pops up, by Jordan Gavaris. It reads "Ugh, can someone please explain to @jordanbpeterson that there's a difference between freedom of speech and freedom of consequence?"

Steve says DO YOU AGREE THERE'S
A DIFFERENCE?

Jordan says CERTAINLY
THERE'S A DIFFERENCE.

Steve says ARE YOU PREPARED TO
SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES THAT SOCIETY
MAY DEEM YOU NEED TO SUFFER
BECAUSE OF YOUR VIEWS?

Jordan says YES, I'M
PREPARED TO DO THAT.

Steve says WHAT DOES THAT
ENTAIL?

Nicholas says ARE YOU OPEN TO LEARNING?

Jordan says THAT'S NOT
THE QUESTION.

Steve says HANG ON, THAT WASN'T
THE QUESTION, THAT'S RIGHT.

Jordan says SO WHAT AM
I WILLING TO DO?
WELL, I THINK THAT THE ONTARIO
HUMAN RIGHTS TRIBUNAL IS
PROBABLY OBLIGATED BY THEIR OWN
TANGLED WEB TO BRING ME IN FRONT
OF IT.
IF IT THEY FINE ME, I WON'T PAY
IT.
IF THEY PUT ME IN JAIL, I'LL GO
ON A HUNGER STRIKE.
I'M NOT DOING THIS.
THAT'S THAT.
I'M NOT USING WORDS THAT OTHER
PEOPLE REQUIRE ME TO USE,
ESPECIALLY IF THEY'RE MADE UP BY
RADICAL LEFT-WING IDEOLOGUES.
NOW, IF OUR SOCIETY COMES TO
SOME SORT OF CONSENSUS OVER THE
NEXT WHILE ABOUT HOW WE'LL SOLVE
THE PRONOUN PROBLEM, LET'S CALL
IT, AND THAT BECOMES PART OF
POPULAR PARLANCE AND IT SEEMS TO
SOLVE THE PROBLEM PROPERLY
WITHOUT SACRIFICING THE
DISTINCTION BETWEEN SINGULAR AND
PLURAL AND WITHOUT REQUIRING ME
TO MEMORIZE AN IMPOSSIBLE LIST
OF AN INDEFINITE NUMBER OF
PRONOUNS, THEN I WOULD BE
WILLING TO RECONSIDER MY
POSITION.
BUT I'M ALSO PARTLY OPPOSED TO
THIS BECAUSE IT'S BEEN MADE
MANDATORY AND HAS THE WHOLE
WEIGHT OF THE LAW BEHIND IT.
IT'S LIKE THIS IS A VERY BAD
IDEA.
I BELIEVE THIS IS A VERY BAD
IDEA.
AND I BELIEVE THAT THE REASON
THIS HAS CAUSED SO MUCH NOISE, A
TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF NOISE,
TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF ATTENTION
ON YouTube, IS BECAUSE THERE
ARE THINGS THAT ARE AT STAKE IN
THIS DISCUSSION DESPITE ITS
SURFACE NATURE THAT STRIKE AT
THE VERY HEART OF OUR
CIVILIZATION.
THAT'S WHAT I BELIEVE.

Steve says DO YOU HAVE TENURE?

Jordan says I DO.

Steve says SO THEY CAN'T FIRE
YOU FOR THIS?

Jordan says WELL, IT'S
NOT ALL THAT EASY TO FIGURE OUT
WHAT PEOPLE CAN AND CAN'T DO.
CERTAINLY THEY COULD FIRE ME IF
I WAS, LET'S SAY... IF THE HATE
SPEECH ALLEGATION, SO TO SPEAK,
STUCK.
I MEAN, THE UNIVERSITY... LOOK.
THE UNIVERSITY'S BEING QUITE
REASONABLE ABOUT THIS,
ESPECIALLY COMPARED TO MANY
UNIVERSITIES.

Steve says I'VE GOT TO SAY, WE
HAVE A MINUTE LEFT AND I WANT TO
GIVE IT TO JORDAN BECAUSE THE
UNIVERSITY HAS NOT SAID
ENTIRELY, SHUT UP, WE DON'T WANT
TO HEAR THIS ANYMORE.

Jordan says BUT I WENT
AND TALKED TO THE DEAN ON FRIDAY
AND I SAT DOWN WITH MY FAMILY
AND I THOUGHT, OKAY, WHAT WOULD
BE THE BEST WAY FOR THIS TO GO
FOR EVERYONE, FOR ME AND FOR MY
STUDENTS AND FOR THE UNIVERSITY
AND FOR SOCIETY?
I THOUGHT, OKAY, OBVIOUSLY
THERE'S AN ISSUE HERE, SEVERAL
OF THEM, BECAUSE OTHERWISE ALL
OF THIS NOISE WOULDN'T HAVE
EMERGED.
SO WE SHOULD ACTUALLY HAVE A
DEBATE ABOUT IT.

Steve says AND THAT'S
HAPPENING.

Jordan says YES.
I WENT AND TALKED TO THE DEAN,
DAVID CAMERON, WHO IS A VERY
REASONABLE PERSON, AND I SAID,
LOOK, I THINK THE UNIVERSITY OF
TORONTO SHOULD TAKE A LEADERSHIP
POSITION ON THIS AND THERE'S
ISSUES TO BE DISCUSSED HERE.

Steve says WHO ARE YOU
DEBATING?

Jordan says HA.
WELL, THAT REMAINS TO BE SEEN.
I HAVEN'T SEEN PEOPLE FLOODING
OUT OF THE WOODWORK TO DEBATE
ME.

Steve says DO WE HAVE A DATE,
PLACE, AND TIME YET?

Jordan says WE DON'T.
IT WILL PROBABLY BE ON CAMPUS IN
A MORNING IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS.

Steve says LET ME KNOW, WE WILL
TWEET IT OUT THERE.
THAT'S OUR TIME.
I DO WANT TO THANK EVERYBODY FOR
COMING IN.
WE HOPE IT WAS WORTH YOUR WHILE.
WE FOUND IT A VERY USEFUL
EXERCISE.

Nicholas says PEOPLE WHO
WATCHED THIS PROGRAM MAY BE IN
NEED...

Steve says DO YOU HAVE A
WEBSITE?

Nicholas says I WOULD
ENCOURAGE PEOPLE GOING TO
TRANSFORMING.CA.
IT WILL APPEAL TO ANYONE WITH AN
INTEREST IN LEARNING.
TRANSFORMINGJUSTICE.CA.

The caption changes to "Producer: Wodek Szemberg, @wodekszemberg."

Steve says THERYN MEYER IN
VANCOUVER, PROFESSOR KIRKUP AT
THE UNIVERSITY OF OTTAWA.
WE THANK YOU FOR BEING OUTSIDE
OUR STUDIO BUT PART OF OUR
BROADCAST TONIGHT.
JORDAN PETERSON OF THE U OF T,
NICHOLAS MATTE FROM THE U OF T,
MARY ROGAN, HER PIECE IN THE
WALRUS MAGAZINE ON BETTER BOOK
STORES AND CORNER STORES
STANDS EVERYWHERE.
THANKS VERY MUCH, EVERYBODY.

Watch: Genders, Rights and Freedom of Speech