Transcript: CETA: Back From the Brink? | Oct 28, 2016

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and striped red and pink tie.

A caption on screen reads "CETA: Back from the brink? @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says IT TOOK SEVEN YEARS OF
CROSS-CONTINENTAL EFFORT TO
HAMMER OUT THE COMPREHENSIVE
ECONOMIC AND TRADE AGREEMENT,
CETA, WHICH AIMS TO LIBERALIZE
TRADE BETWEEN CANADA AND THE
EUROPEAN UNION.
THEN, IN JUST THE PAST WEEK, IT
LOOKED AS IF THE TINY BELGIAN
REGION OF WALLONIA MIGHT SCUTTLE
WHOLE DEAL.
WHILE IT NOW APPEARS THAT THE
PACT WILL LIKELY PROCEED, THE
WEEK'S EVENTS LEFT MUCH TO
REFLECT ON.
JOINING US NOW TO DO JUST THAT:
IN OUR NATION'S CAPITAL:
ANGELLA MacEWEN, SENIOR
ECONOMIST, CANADIAN LABOUR CONGRESS...

Angella is in her early forties, with chin-length straight brown hair. She's wearing glasses, a gray tweed coat over a purple shirt, and a silver necklace.

Steve continues AND HERE IN OUR STUDIO:
OMAR ALLAM, CEO AND FOUNDER OF
THE ALLAM ADVISORY GROUP.

Omar is in his thirties, with very short black hair and a stubble. He's wearing a black suit, a white-collared blue shirt, and a red tie.

Steve continues NICE TO HAVE BOTH OF YOU ON THE
PROGRAM TODAY AS WE CONTINUE
CETA AND THE WAY FORWARD.
OMAR, I'M GOING TO READ WHAT YOU
WROTE IN THE HILL TIMES...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Trade playbook." The quote reads "Last week, Canada's International Trade Minister Chrystia Freeland was driving Canada's offense through the EU's red zone with sights set high on a touchdown to bring CETA home. With the clock winding down in the 4th quarter, Belgium's province of Wallonia made a defensive move that Canada (and the European Parliament) wasn't prepared for. With no timeouts and no other plays in their offensive playbook, Canada got sacked for a loss."
Quoted from Omar Allam, The Hill Times. October 24, 2016.

Steve says I DO LOVE THE
FOOTBALL ANALOGY.

Omar says THANK YOU.

Steve says LET'S CONTINUE THAT
FOOTBALL ANALOGY, IF WE CAN?
LET'S ASSUME THAT THE CANADIAN
DELEGATION'S LEAVING WAS A KIND
OF STRATEGIC HAIL MARY IN THE
LAST SECONDS OF THE GAME, AND
SOMEHOW THAT HAIL MARY
APPARENTLY PAID OFF BECAUSE THE
OTHER SIDE RECONSIDERED AND WE
NOW HAVE WHAT APPEARS TO BE THE
MAKINGS OF A DEAL.
DOES THAT JIBE WITH YOU, THE WAY
I'VE JUST DESCRIBED IT?

The caption changes to "Omar Allam. Allam Advisory Group."
Then, it changes again to "The Pros and Cons of the deal."

Omar says IT DOES IN A
WAY, BUT THE WAY I SEE IT IS
THAT YOU HAVE CANADA GETTING
SACKED FOR A LOSS, BUT NOW THE
PLAY IS IN THE REVIEW BOOTH.
SO THE WALLOONS, THE BELGIANS,
AND THE E.U. ARE NOW LOOKING AT
WHAT IS THE NEXT STEP IN TERMS
OF... THEY'VE GOT THE HEADPHONES
ON.

Steve says THEY'RE REVIEWING
THE REPLAY.

Omar says WHAT'S HAPPENED
IS THERE'S BEEN A RAIN DELAY AND
THE CANADIAN TEAM HAS LEFT THE
FIELD.

Steve says WE'RE NOW INTO
BASEBALL BECAUSE THEY DON'T DO
THAT IN FOOTBALL.
THE TARP'S ON THE FIELD...

Omar says ALL THE PLAYERS
GET OFF THE FIELD, ESSENTIALLY.

Steve says OKAY.
ANGELLA, HOW WOULD YOU READ IT?

The caption changes to "Angella MacEwen. Canadian Labour Congress."

Angella says SO MY READ
IS ACTUALLY THAT FOR SOME
REASON, THE LIBERAL GOVERNMENT
HAS TAKEN ON THESE FOOTBALL
GAMES THAT THE CONSERVATIVE
GOVERNMENT NEGOTIATED, RIGHT?
SO THEY'RE REALLY WANTING TO GET
TO THE FINISH LINE ON CETA AND
ON TPP AND THEY'RE CONCENTRATING
ON THIS GAME WHEN REALLY THEY
SHOULD BE LOOKING AT HOW THEY
CAN SUPPORT EXPORTERS IN CANADA,
SO THEY'RE NOT EVEN PLAYING THE
RIGHT GAME.

Steve says OKAY.
WE'VE HAD A LOT OF FUN WITH
THESE SPORTS ANALOGIES NOW BUT
LET'S GET ON TO THE NUTS AND
BOLTS OF THE DEAL.
OMAR, LET ME START WITH YOU AND
ASK YOU WHY YOU THINK AN
EVENTUALLY SIGNED CETA AGREEMENT
CAN BE BENEFICIAL FOR BOTH
CANADA AND THE E.U.?

Omar says WELL, IT'S THE
FIRST OF ITS KIND, SO THE E.U.
IS GIVING CANADA ACCESS TO A
MARKET OF 500 MILLION CONSUMERS.
YOU'VE GOT 28 MEMBER STATES
WHERE CANADIAN COMPANIES NOW
HAVE PREFERENTIAL ACCESS TO
DIFFERENT SECTORS OF THE
ECONOMY, WHERE... WE'RE A
TRADING NATION, SO THIS IS KEY
TO CANADA'S EXPORTS.

Steve says WHAT DOES THIS ALLOW
US TO DO THAT WE COULDN'T DO
BEFORE?

Omar says WELL, IT OPENS
UP GOVERNMENT PROCUREMENT.
IT ALSO REDUCES TARIFF BARRIERS,
SO YOU'LL SEE 98 TO 100 PERCENT
OF BARRIERS BEING REDUCED.
SO THE IMPORTS THAT ARE GOING
OUT FROM... OR THE EXPORTS THAT
ARE GOING OUT TO THE UNITED...
TO THE E.U. ARE PRETTY MUCH
GETTING CANCELLED OUT.

Steve says ANGELLA, AS I ASK
YOU TO GIVE US YOUR VIEW ON
THIS, LET ME ASK YOU TO FOCUS ON
A PARTICULAR PART OF THE
AGREEMENT, THE I.S.D.S.
THIS MAY BE AN ACRONYM WE HEAR A
LOT ABOUT IN THE FUTURE, THE
INVESTOR STATE DISPUTE
SETTLEMENT.
MANY CRITICS HAVE A PROBLEM WITH
THAT.
WHY DON'T YOU START BY TELLING
US WHAT IT IS.

Angella says SURE.
SO INVESTOR STATE DISPUTE
SETTLEMENT MECHANISMS HAVE BEEN
A COMMON PART OF TRADE DEALS
SINCE NAFTA, WHICH WAS I THINK
CANADA'S FIRST MAJOR AND
DISASTROUS EXPERIENCE WITH THIS.
AND SO WHAT HAPPENS UNDER
I.S.D.S. MECHANISMS IS THAT
FOREIGN COMPANIES GET
PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT.
THEY HAVE ACCESS TO SOME DISPUTE
SETTLEMENT MECHANISMS IF
GOVERNMENT REGULATES SOMETHING
THAT THEY DON'T LIKE OR IF WE
TRY TO BAN ENVIRONMENTAL
SUBSTANCES THAT ARE HARMFUL.
COMPANIES CAN SUE THE GOVERNMENT
AND THE GOVERNMENT WILL HAVE TO
PAY THEM COMPENSATION FOR THAT.
AND THIS HAS BEEN REALLY
DISASTROUS IN CANADA.
IT'S EXPENSIVE.
IT PUTS A REGULATORY CHILL ON
GOVERNMENTS WHO ARE THINKING
ABOUT BANNING TOXIC SUBSTANCES
OR WHO ARE THINKING ABOUT
HAVING, YOU KNOW, ENVIRONMENTAL
REVIEWS FOR, SAY, A QUARRY IN
NOVA SCOTIA OR A PIPELINE WHERE
THE RESULT OF THAT ENVIRONMENTAL
REVIEW CAN BE CHALLENGED IN THIS
UNACCOUNTABLE INTERNATIONAL
COURT, AND THERE'S NO WAY TO
APPEAL THAT OR TO BRING, EVEN IN
THE FACTS OF THE CASE FROM
DOMESTIC COURTS TO THAT
INTERNATIONAL TRIBUNAL, WHICH IS
JUST A BUNCH OF WELL-PAID
LAWYERS ACTUALLY THAT IN MOST
I.S.D.S. CASES, THOSE LAWYERS,
THERE ARE VERY LITTLE ETHICS
GOVERNING THAT TRIBUNAL, SO THEY
CAN, YOU KNOW, BE A CLIENT...
WORKING FOR A CLIENT ONE DAY AND
HEARING A CASE FOR THAT CLIENT
ON ANOTHER DAY.
THE INVESTOR COURT SYSTEM UNDER
THE CETA IMPROVES THE WORST, THE
MOST EGREGIOUS PARTS OF THE
PROCESS OF THE INTERNATIONAL
DISPUTE SETTLEMENT RESOLUTIONS
BUT WE'RE ALLOWING MULTINATIONAL
CORPORATIONS TO CHALLENGE
DOMESTIC LEGISLATION WHERE
GOVERNMENTS HAVE DECIDED TO DO
SOMETHING IN THE BEST INTERESTS
OF THE CITIZENS AND THESE
FOREIGN CORPORATIONS CAN
CHALLENGE THAT BASED ON LOST
PROFIT.

Steve says ANGELLA...

Angella says THAT'S A PROBLEM.

Steve says I HEAR YOU.
HANG ON.
I HAVE TO GO TO OMAR NOW.
ANGELLA IS A DEFINITE NO ON THIS
DISPUTE TRIBUNAL.
WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON IT?

Omar says IT'S A MAJOR
IMPROVEMENT FROM OTHER TRIBUNALS
BUT ON BOTH SIDES IT WILL BE
REFINED OVER TIME ESPECIALLY AS
LEGAL, REGULATORY ENVIRONMENTS
IN VARIOUS COUNTRIES ARE
EVOLVING AS THE WORLD ECONOMY IS.
SO I DEFINITELY THINK IT IS AN
IMPROVEMENT.
BUT AS YOU SEE, IT'S AN
EMOTIONAL ONE VERSUS A RATIONAL
DEBATE IN TERMS OF THE I.S.D.S.

Steve says I WANT TO MAKE SURE
I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU JUST SAID THERE.
ARE YOU BASICALLY SAYING...

Angella says ARE YOU
ACCUSING ME OF BEING EMOTIONAL?

Steve says THAT'S WHAT I'M
FOLLOWING UP ON, ANGELLA.
I'M THERE.
ARE YOU SAYING ANGELLA IS ONLY
APPEALING TO AN EMOTIONAL
ARGUMENT HERE BUT YOU HAVE
INTELLECT ON YOUR SIDE?

The caption changes to "Omar Allam, @Omar_Allam_"

Omar says I CERTAINLY
RESPECT WHERE ANGELLA IS COMING FROM.
BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT, AT THE
CORE OF THE VARIOUS PROTESTS, IT
REALLY STARTED AT T.A.P.T., THE
TRANSATLANTIC AGREEMENT BETWEEN
THE UNITED STATES AND THE E.U.
WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT THAT, ALL
THE PROTESTS REALLY STARTED WITH
THE E.U. AND THE U.S. AGREEMENT
THAT'S BEING NEGOTIATED, AND
THEN IT KIND OF TRICKLED DOWN
INTO CETA GETTING KIND OF CAUGHT
UP IN THAT STORM.
SO THE REAL FEAR IS THAT U.S.
MULTINATIONAL COMPANIES WILL BE
ABLE TO COME IN AND SUE A
GOVERNMENT, UNDERMINE THE
SOVEREIGNTY OF A COUNTRY, AND
THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION
SAW THAT... WELL, THE CANADIAN
AGREEMENT WILL DO THE SAME THING.
BUT THEY'RE TWO SEPARATE
AGREEMENTS, AND THERE IS A
SPECIFIC COURT AND SYSTEM THAT'S
IN PLACE FOR THE I.S.D.S. WITHIN
CETA THAT IS COMPLETELY
DIFFERENT FROM THE U.S. AND E.U.
GOVERNMENT THAT IS BEING
CURRENTLY NEGOTIATED.

Steve says YOU THINK AT THE END
OF THE DAY THAT THIS DISPUTE
SETTLEMENT TRIBUNAL WILL WORK
AND CANADA WILL BE SATISFIED
WITH IT?

Omar says I THINK IT'S A
GOOD START.
AGAIN, THIS IS A LARGE
AGREEMENT.

Steve says IT'S A WORK IN
PROGRESS.

Omar says IT'S A WORK
FROM PROGRESS.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: @theagenda, TVO.org, YouTube, Facebook, Instagram."

Steve says LET ME GO TO ANGELLA
ON THIS ISSUE.
I GATHER PART OF THE STUMBLING
BLOCK AND ONE OF THE REASONS WHY
THIS ONE REGION INSIDE BELGIUM
WOULDN'T SIGN OFF ON THE DEAL,
WALLONIA, IS BECAUSE THEY
WEREN'T HAPPY WITH THE
AGREEMENT.
DO YOU THINK IT'S POSSIBLE TO
IMPROVE THIS DISPUTE SETTLEMENT
PART OF THE CETA AGREEMENT?

The caption changes to "Angella MacEwen, @AMacEwen"

Angella says WELL, I
DON'T THINK IT'S A NECESSARY
PART OF THE AGREEMENT AT ALL AND
THAT IS WHAT HAS BEEN IN THIS
AGREEMENT THAT'S BEEN SIGNED IN
BELGIUM THAT'S ALLOWED THE DEAL
TO KIND OF CONTINUE GOING FORWARD.
IF YOU READ WHAT THEY SAY, IT'S
NOT JUST THE REGION OF WALLONIA,
IT'S ALSO THE CAPITAL REGION AND
THE GERMAN-SPEAKING COMMUNITY
AND THE FLEMISH SPEAKING
COMMUNITY ALSO HAVE A SAY, I
GUESS, CONSTITUTIONALLY, SO
THERE ARE FOUR ELEMENTS OR
REGIONS, CONSTITUTIONALLY WITHIN
BELGIUM, THAT ARE SAYING THEY
WILL NOT RATIFY THIS DEAL WITH
THE INVESTOR STATE MECHANISM AS
IT STANDS IN CETA.
SO THEY ARE GIVING NOTICE THAT
THEY WILL NOT RATIFY THE DEAL AS
IT STANDS.

Steve says RIGHT.
SO, OMAR, THERE ARE CLEARLY
CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUES AT PLAY IN EUROPE.
ARE THERE HERE IN CANADA AS WELL?

Omar says I THINK THE
ISSUES WITHIN CANADA HAVE BEEN
RESOLVED.
YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE MAJOR
STICKING POINTS AT THE START OF
THE NEGOTIATIONS WAS ENSURING
THAT CANADA HAD THE PROVINCES ON
SIDE, AND THAT WAS DEALT WITH,
YOU KNOW, IN A TIMELY AND
EFFECTIVE MANNER SO THAT WE CAN
ACTUALLY MOVE THE BALL UP THE
FIELD IN TERMS OF NEGOTIATING
CETA.

Steve says HERE WE ARE BACK TO
THE FOOTBALL ANALOGY.
JUST TO BE CLEAR, EVERY PROVINCE
IN CANADA IS ON SIDE OF THIS?

Omar says THE MAJORITY OF
THE PROVINCES...

Steve says IS IT THE MAJORITY
OR ALL OF THEM.

Omar says ALL OF THEM.

Angella says I DON'T
THINK NEWFOUNDLAND IS ON SIDE.
I THINK THEY'VE RAISED CONCERNS
AROUND QUOTAS AROUND FISH
PROCESSING, AND RIGHT NOW WE
HAVE FRIENDLY GOVERNMENTS IN
ONTARIO AND Québec.
BUT SHOULD THOSE GOVERNMENTS
CHANGE, THEY COULD POSSIBLY
RAISE CONSTITUTIONAL QUESTIONS.
IF WE DON'T GO THROUGH SOME SORT
OF FORMAL RATIFICATION PROCESS
BY THE PROVINCES.

Steve says THERE WON'T BE A
CHANGE OF GOVERNMENT IN
ONTARIO... IF IT WERE TO HAPPEN,
IT WON'T HAPPEN FOR 20 MONTHS...

Angella says THE
PROCESS IN EUROPE COULD TAKE
YEARS.
SO AT SOME POINT LATER DOWN THE
ROAD, THERE COULD BE
CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUES RAISED
ABOUT CETA IF WE DON'T AT THIS
POINT HAVE SOME KIND OF FORMAL
RATIFICATION PROCESS BY THE
PROVINCES.
AND CETA ALSO EXTENDS INTO
MUNICIPALITIES WHICH HASN'T
HAPPENED BEFORE, AND IN EUROPE,
THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF
MUNICIPALITIES THAT HAVE
DECLARED THEMSELVES CETA-FREE
ZONES, AND THERE ARE
MUNICIPALITIES IN CANADA THAT
HAVE ALSO MADE DECLARATIONS
OPPOSING CETA, HAVE ASKED TO BE
CARVED OUT OF CETA.
THEY WEREN'T CARVED OUT.
THEY GOT SOME LIMITS CHANGED.
BUT THERE WAS NO CONSULTATION
WITH THE MUNICIPALITIES WHO ARE
GOING TO BE SERIOUSLY AFFECTED
BY HOW CETA WORKS...

Steve says LET ME FOLLOW UP ON
THAT.
ANGELLA, SORRY, I'M GOING TO CUT
YOU OFF BECAUSE WE HAVE A FINITE
AMOUNT OF TIME AND I CAN'T LET
YOU HAVE ALL OF IT, I'M SORRY.
OMAR, I NEED YOU TO FOLLOW UP ON
ANGELLA'S LAST POINT, WHICH IS
THAT THERE ARE GROUPS AND
INTERESTS THAT ARE AFFECTED BY
THIS THING, WHICH WERE NOT
NECESSARILY EITHER CONSULTED OR
AT THE BARGAINING TABLE IN THE
FINAL ANALYSIS.
HOW PROBLEMATIC IS THAT TO
GETTING BUY-IN ON THIS TREATY?

The caption changes to "Communication first."

Omar says IT'S EXTREMELY
PROBLEMATIC, AND I FULLY AGREE
WITH ANGELLA THAT THERE NEEDS TO
BE MORE TRANSPARENCY, OPENNESS
FROM DAY ONE IN TERMS OF AN
AGREEMENT AS SUCH.
THE REALITY IS THAT DIDN'T
HAPPEN, AND CAUSE AND EFFECT OF
WHAT WE SAW IN WALLONIA ON THE
EUROPEAN SIDE.
SO DEFINITELY WE NEED MORE OF A
TRANSPARENT PROCESS AND AN OPEN
DIALOGUE WITH BUSINESS, WITH
INDUSTRY ASSOCIATIONS, WITH
CIVIL SOCIETY AND CANADIANS IN
GENERAL.

Steve says WOULD YOU AGREE,
ENVIRONMENTAL GROUPS, HEALTH
GROUPS, SOME MUNICIPALITIES,
LABOUR GROUPS OUGHT TO HAVE BEEN
MORE INCLUDED THAN THEY WERE?

Omar says DEFINITELY.

Steve says YOU WOULD AGREE WITH THAT?

Omar says YEAH.

Steve says OKAY.
HAVING SAID THAT, ANGELLA, IS IT
POSSIBLE, WHEN YOU'RE TRYING TO
NEGOTIATE SOMETHING THAT WILL
TAKE YEARS AND YEARS AND IS AS
COMPREHENSIVE AS THIS TREATY
HOPES TO BE, OR THIS AGREEMENT
HOPES TO BE, IS IT REALLY
REASONABLE TO EXPECT EVERYBODY
TO HAVE THEIR DIGS IN ON IT?

Angella says I THINK
WHAT GOVERNMENT CAN DO IS SIT
DOWN WITH STAKEHOLDERS AND COME
UP WITH SOME PRINCIPLES THAT
WOULD GUIDE A PROGRESSIVE TRADE
DEAL.
SO THIS GOVERNMENT TALKS A LOT
ABOUT WANTING TO HAVE A
PROGRESSIVE TRADE DEAL.
SO IF THEY SIT DOWN WITH US AND
SAY, OKAY, WHAT ARE YOUR
CONCERNS AROUND PUBLIC SERVICES?
HOW CAN WE MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE
PROTECTING CANADA'S PUBLIC
SERVICES AND WHAT ARE YOU SEEING
ON THE GROUND AS SOME OF THE
NEGATIVE OUTCOMES OF PREVIOUS
TRADE DEALS WITH REGARD TO
PUBLIC SERVICES?
SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE SURE THAT
THEY'RE NOT MAKING THE SAME
MISTAKE AGAIN IN THE NEXT DEAL
THAT THEY NEGOTIATE.
SO I DEFINITELY THINK THAT THEY
CAN HAVE THIS OPEN DIALOGUE AND
THEY CAN USE THAT TO GUIDE THE
NEGOTIATIONS.

Steve says AT THE RISK OF
TORTURING ANOTHER SPORTS ANALOGY
HERE, I DO WANT TO QUOTE THE
MINISTER INVOLVED, THE
INTERNATIONAL TRADE MINISTER,
CHRYSTIA FREELAND, WHO HAD THIS
TO SAY WHEN IT LOOKED LIKE THE
THING WAS GOING TO GO DOWN THE
TUBES.
SHELDON, ROLL THE CLIP, PLEASE.

A clip plays on screen in which Chrystia Freeland gives an official statement. She's in her forties, with shoulder-length straight blond hair.

She says CANADA HAS SAID ON MANY
OCCASIONS FOR US THIS IS AN
EXCELLENT AGREEMENT.
IT IS AN AGREEMENT THAT WE HAVE
MADE SUBSTANTIALLY MORE
PROGRESSIVE SINCE WE CAME INTO
OFFICE.
CANADA IS READY TO SIGN CETA,
BUT THE BALL IS IN EUROPE'S
COURT, AND IT'S TIME FOR EUROPE
TO DO ITS JOB.

The clip ends.

Steve says IS THIS A DONE DEAL NOW?

The caption changes to "Hit pause, then press play."

Omar says THE FACT THAT
WALLONIA AND BELGIUM HAVE COME
TO THE E.U. AND SAID THAT THEY
HAVE COME TO A CONSENSUS, IT
WILL BE A DONE DEAL WHEN IT'S
SIGNED.

Steve says ANY IDEA WHEN THAT
WILL BE?

Omar says IT'S HARD TO
SAY BUT I DON'T SEE IT TAKING A
LOT OF TIME GOING THROUGH THE
EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AFTER ALL
THE MEMBER STATES CLICK THEIR
PENS AND GET READY TO SIGN THE
AGREEMENT WITH PRIME MINISTER
TRUDEAU.

Steve says ANGELLA SUGGESTS
THIS COULD TAKE YEARS.
ARE YOU LOOKING AT THAT KIND OF
TIME FRAME?

Omar says NO, YOU'RE
LOOKING AT SIGNING, AND IT THEN
GOES TO THE EUROPEAN
PARLIAMENT...

Steve says WHICH IS EXPECTED TO
RUBBER STAMP IT.

Omar says WHICH IS A
RUBBER STAMP BUT THE PROVISION
IS THEN APPLIED.
FROM THERE THEN CETA GOES TO
EVERY NATIONAL PARLIAMENT FOR
APPROVAL.
SO THAT'S WHAT COULD TAKE YEARS.

Steve says ESSENTIALLY, IF I
UNDERSTAND IT, THE EUROPEAN
PARLIAMENT'S CHECK-OFF IS
BASICALLY... THAT GETS YOU
90 PERCENT THERE.
THEN THE INDIVIDUAL COUNTRIES
WILL ARGUE OVER THE REMAINING 1.
IS THAT FAIR TO SAY?

Omar says WELL, NO, THEY
WON'T ARGUE...

Steve says NOT ARGUE, BUT
THEY'LL TAKE THEIR TIME.

Omar says ONCE THEY GO
THROUGH THE AGREEMENT AND THEN
SIGN IT, THEN THE AGREEMENT IS
100 PERCENT IN FORCE, IT'S
RATIFIED.

Steve says ANGELLA, WHEN THE
MINISTER, CHRYSTIA FREELAND,
SAYS THAT CETA IS SUBSTANTIALLY
MORE PROGRESSIVE THAN HER
CRITICS WOULD SUGGEST, IS SHE RIGHT?

Angella says NO.
THE ONLY THING THAT THIS
GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN ABLE TO
CHANGE ABOUT THE DEAL IS THE
INVESTOR COURT SYSTEM, AND SO
THEY'VE IMPROVED THE PROCESS FOR
THAT PART OF THE DEAL.
BUT ON GOVERNMENT PROCUREMENT,
ON PUBLIC SERVICES, ON
PRIVATIZATION, ON A WHOLE HOST
OF OTHER ISSUES, IT'S NOT.
IT'S HARPER'S DEAL STILL.
SO WE'VE ASKED THEM TO TAKE A
PAUSE AND TO NEGOTIATE AN ACTUAL
PROGRESSIVE TRADE DEAL, BUT
THERE'S UNWILLINGNESS, EITHER ON
THE PART OF EUROPE OR ON THE
PART OF CANADA, WE DON'T KNOW
WHERE THAT'S COMING FROM, BUT
THERE DOES SEEM TO BE
UNWILLINGNESS TO SIT AND
ACTUALLY OPEN UP THE DEAL.
YOU'VE HEARD OF THIS
INTERPRETIVE INSTRUMENT THAT WAS
TRYING TO DO SOME OF THAT, AND
WHAT WE WANTED TO BE ABLE TO DO
WAS ACTUALLY OPEN UP THE DEAL
AND CHANGE THE DEAL TO REFLECT
THESE CONCERNS, BECAUSE WE HAVE
CONCERNS ABOUT HOW EFFECTIVE
THAT INTERPRETIVE INSTRUMENT
WILL ACTUALLY BE IN A COURT WHEN
WE'RE DECIDING ANY DISPUTES THAT ARISE.

Steve says HAS THE CANADIAN
LABOUR CONGRESS HAD A CHANCE TO
MEET WITH THE MINISTER ON THIS ISSUE?

Angella says ABSOLUTELY, YES.

Steve says SO YOUR VOICE HAS BEEN HEARD.

Angella says ABSOLUTELY.
THIS GOVERNMENT HAS DONE A MUCH
BETTER JOB OF MAKING THAT EFFORT
TO REACH OUT AND TO TALK.
THEY'VE DONE IT ON THE TRANS
PACIFIC PARTNERSHIP WHERE
THEY'VE HELD MEETINGS ACROSS
CANADA.
THEY'VE COME AND THEY'VE TALKED
TO VARIOUS LABOUR LEADERS,
THEY'VE MADE TIME TO LISTEN TO
US AND TO OUR CONCERNS, BUT THE
DEAL WAS ALREADY NEGOTIATED.
IT WAS SHUT BY THE TIME THEY
WERE LISTENING TO US, SO...

Steve says IF THEY HEARD YOUR
CONCERNS, THOUGH, THAT'S WHAT
THEIR JOB IS.
THEIR JOB IS TO LISTEN TO YOUR
CONCERNS, BUT HEARING YOU
DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN THAT
YOU GET YOUR WAY.
SO WOULD YOU AGREE THEY'VE DONE
THE JOB?

Angella says RIGHT, BUT
THERE WAS NO OPPORTUNITY FOR THE
DEAL TO CHANGE AT ALL.
SO IF THEY HEAR US BUT THERE'S
NO WAY THAT THE DEAL CAN BE
CHANGED OR MADE MORE PROGRESSIVE
AT THIS POINT, ACCORDING TO
THEM, THE DEAL'S SHUT, IT'S OVER.
THEN HOW MUCH USE IS IT FOR THEM
TO BE LISTENING TO ANYONE IF
THERE'S NO OPPORTUNITY FOR ANY
CHANGE TO BE MADE?

Steve says OKAY.
LET ME PUT A NEW ISSUE ON THE
TABLE HERE BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE
TO TELL EITHER ONE OF YOU THAT
THANKS TO I THINK BERNIE SANDERS
AND DONALD TRUMP, THERE HAS BEEN
A VAST DEBATE TAKING PLACE ALL
OVER THE WORLD, PARTICULARLY, I
GUESS, IN THE UNITED STATES
DURING THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION
CAMPAIGN, FOCUSING ON THESE
MAJOR TRADE AGREEMENTS WHICH,
INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, TWO
SIGNIFICANT CANDIDATES FOR BOTH
THE DEMOCRATS AND THE
REPUBLICANS BOTH THINK ARE
TERRIBLE, BOTH THINK HAVE LED TO
MASSIVE LAYOFFS, PARTICULARLY IN
MANUFACTURING SECTOR.
DONALD TRUMP HAS BEEN JUST
EXCORIATING IN HIS VIEWS ABOUT
NAFTA, FOR EXAMPLE.
I WONDER, OMAR, TO YOU FIRST,
WHETHER YOU THINK THE CETA WILL
COUNTERACT SOME OF WHAT APPEARS
TO BE SOME DEEPLY HELD CONCERN
ABOUT THE NATURE OF THESE VAST
TRADE AGREEMENTS NOW?

The caption changes to "An uncertain future for free trade?"

Omar says I THINK IT WILL
CREATE MORE OPPORTUNITY FOR
COMPANIES TO DIVERSIFY AWAY FROM
THE UNITED STATES.
YOU KNOW, THAT RELIANCE, YOU
KNOW, HAS BEEN SOMETHING THAT
WE'VE BEEN TRYING TO BREAK FOR
THE LAST, YOU KNOW, 10 YEARS.

Steve says HOW IS THAT GOOD FOR
THE AMERICAN MIDDLE CLASS AND
WORKING CLASS IF THIS AGREEMENT
WILL ALLOW COMPANIES TO MOVE
MORE JOBS OUT OF THE UNITED
STATES?

Omar says TO THEM,
THEY'RE ALSO TRYING TO PUT
TOGETHER A SIMILAR TYPE OF
AGREEMENT WITH THE EUROPEAN
UNION AS WELL.
SO THE RISE IN PROTECTIONISM
DEFINITELY, YOU KNOW, IS
SOMETHING THAT'S A COMMON THEME
ACROSS THE WORLD.
SO THE FOCUS FOR THE U.S.
ADMINISTRATION AND OF THE TWO
CANDIDATES IS VERY MUCH, HOW DO
WE BUILD THE ECONOMY, HOW DO WE
CREATE JOBS, KEEP MANUFACTURING
IN THE COUNTRY, AND ENSURE THAT,
YOU KNOW, WE'RE COMPETITIVE AND
INNOVATIVE AND WE'RE MOVING
FORWARD IN A FAST-PACED WORLD.
BUT WHAT WE'RE SEEING NOW IN THE
CANADIAN CONTEXT IS THAT WE CAN
TRADE WITH A PARTNER LIKE THE
UNITED STATES, BUT ALSO WE NOW
HAVE ACCESS TO NEW MARKETS,
WHICH IS UNHEARD OF, AND ALSO
THE FACT THAT THE E.U., THE
FIRST TIME THEY'RE EVER DOING
THIS, IS CREATING THIS AND EASE
OF DOING BUSINESS FOR CANADIAN
COMPANIES WHERE YOU'RE REDUCING
94 PERCENT TO 100 PERCENT TARIFF
ELIMINATION IN KEY SECTORS OF
THE CANADIAN ECONOMY, SO
AGRICULTURE, AGRIFOOD,
MANUFACTURING, ADVANCED
MANUFACTURING, FOREST PRODUCTS.
SO THIS IS DEFINITELY A GOOD
SIGN FOR HOW COMPANIES, BUT MORE
SPECIFICALLY COUNTRIES, WANT TO
GROW THEIR OWN ECONOMIES, AND
IT'S A GOOD SIGN AND A LESSON
LEARNED, WE'RE HOPING THAT THE
AMERICANS ARE TAKING NOTES OF
WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE LAST
QUARTER OF THE CETA AGREEMENT
NEGOTIATIONS BECAUSE THEN THEY
CAN LOOK AT HOW THEY CAN ADVANCE
THEIR OWN TRADE AGENDA.

Steve says ALL RIGHT.
THE QUESTION THEN FOR THE OTHER
SIDE OF THE COIN FOR YOU,
ANGELLA, IS: IN SPITE OF SOME
VERY INTENSE ANTITRADE AGREEMENT
SENTIMENT THAT IS CLEARLY OUT
THERE IN THE UNITED STATES IN
PARTICULAR BUT ALSO IN CANADA AS
WELL, IN SPITE OF ALL THAT, CETA
LOOKS LIKE IT'S HAPPENING.
WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S HAPPENING
IF THERE'S SO MUCH ANTIPATHY
TOWARDS IT?

Angella says THAT'S A
GREAT QUESTION.
I HAVE NO IDEA WHY GOVERNMENTS
SEEM TO FEEL THAT SIGNING A
TRADE DEAL IS A SOLUTION FOR
GROWING THE ECONOMY AND
IMPROVING ACTUAL EXPORTS.
BUT WE ALREADY HAVE REDUCED
TARIFFS WITH EUROPEAN COUNTRIES.
WE ALREADY TRADE WITH ALL OF
THESE EUROPEAN COUNTRIES.
WE'RE ONLY REDUCING, YOU KNOW,
SOME TARGETED TARIFFS IN SOME
AREAS, AND WE COULD DO THAT
WITHOUT THE REST OF THE DEAL,
WITHOUT THIS INVESTOR COURT,
WITHOUT... I MEAN, IF WE JUST
HAD A 30-PAGE AGREEMENT THAT
REDUCED TARIFFS, I DON'T THINK
YOU'D SEE THE SAME KIND OF
OPPOSITION AS YOU'RE SEEING.
WHAT WE HAVE IS A 1600-PAGE
AGREEMENT THAT DOES THINGS LIKE
EXTEND PATENT PROTECTIONS FOR
PHARMACARE COMPANIES, AND THAT
WILL COST OUR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM
AND THAT WILL MAKE IT HARDER FOR
US TO HAVE A NATIONAL PHARMACARE
PROGRAM.
AND SO THAT SHOULD BE PART OF
THE PUBLIC DEBATE.
WE SHOULD BE DEBATING WHETHER OR
NOT WE WANT A NATIONAL
PHARMACARE PROGRAM AND WHETHER
OR NOT WE WANT TO EXTEND
PROTECTIONS FOR BIG PHARMA WHEN
WE'RE ACTUALLY LOSING
PROTECTIONS IN OTHER AREAS,
LIKE...

Steve says JUST TO BE CLEAR.
HANG ON, ANGELLA...

Angella says I JUST
WANT TO SAY THAT...

Steve says JUST TO BE CLEAR, THOUGH.

Angella says I'M SORRY,
I DO JUST WANT TO SAY THAT THE
PROPONENTS OF CETA, THE ECONOMIC
ANALYSIS, THE BIGGEST BUMP THAT
WE SEE IS A FRACTION OF WHAT
SOMETHING LIKE LEGALIZING
MARIJUANA DOES.
SO EVEN THE BIGGEST PROPONENTS
OF TRADE WITH EUROPE, SAYING WE
SHOULD SIGN CETA, WERE ONLY
GOING TO GROW THE ECONOMY BY,
YOU KNOW, WITHIN... BARS OF WHAT
THE ECONOMY IS GOING TO BE
GROWING OVER THE NEXT TEN YEARS.
FOCUSING ON THE TRADE AGREEMENT,
LIKE I SAID AT THE BEGINNING, IS
A MISTAKE.
YOU NEED TO SEE HOW COMPANIES
GROW STRATEGICALLY IN CANADA,
WHAT KIND OF INFRASTRUCTURE
SHOULD THE GOVERNMENT BE PUTTING
IN PLACE, WHAT KIND OF TRAINING
DO WE NEED, WHAT KIND OF
HIGH-SPEED INTERNET DO WE NEED?
THESE TYPE OF THINGS IS WHAT WE
SHOULD BE DOING TO HELP
COMPANIES EXPORT, AND TRADE
AGREEMENTS ARE NOT ABOUT TRADE.
THIS IS ONE THING WE NEED TO
TRADE.
IT'S NOT ANTITRADE SENTIMENT,
IT'S PRO-DEMOCRATIC SENTIMENT.
WE WANT OUR ELECTED LEGISLATURES
TO BE ABLE TO MAKE LEGISLATION
IN THE PUBLIC INTEREST.
WE WANT THAT TO HAPPEN WITHOUT
PAYING COMPANIES OUT MILLIONS
AND BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN THESE
INVESTOR SUITS.

Steve says OKAY, OKAY, OKAY.
OMAR... OMAR, I'VE GOT TWO
MINUTES LEFT.
I HAVE TO GIVE OMAR EQUAL TIME HERE.

Omar says OKAY.
SO, YOU KNOW, SOME PARTS OF WHAT
ANGELLA IS SAYING I AGREE WITH,
WITH THE FACT THAT CANADA NEEDS
A COORDINATED INTERNATIONAL
EXPORT AND INVESTMENT STRATEGY
WHICH REALLY TRICKLES DOWN TO,
HOW DO WE HELP COMPANIES WITH
THE FUNDAMENTAL CHALLENGES THAT
THEY'RE FACING, SO LACK OF
ACCESS TO FINANCING, TO GET INTO
GLOBAL MARKETS, LACK OF
CONTACTS, INSIGHTS.
BUT OUR COMPANIES ARE RISK
AVERSE, SO THEY NEED VEHICLES
AND BRIDGES TO GET INTO COUNTRIES...

The caption changes to "The way forward."

Steve says I UNDERSTAND THAT.
BUT HAVING SAID THAT, PUBLIC
OPINION IS RUNNING AGAINST THESE
KIND OF MAJOR TRADE DEALS RIGHT
NOW, SO WHAT DO YOU THINK THE
CANADIAN GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO DO
IN ORDER TO GET THE PUBLIC ON SIDE.

Omar says THEY NEED TO
HIGHLIGHT THE BENEFITS, NOT ONLY
TO EXPORTERS BUT THE INDIVIDUAL
CANADIANS THAT ARE GOING IN TO
WORK AND THE JOBS THAT ARE BEING
CREATED, JOBS THAT ARE BEING
SUSTAINED.
BUT GETTING BACK TO THE TRADE
POLICY PIECE IN TERMS OF THE
TRADE AGREEMENT, CETA IS A TRADE
POLICY INSTRUMENT THAT
FACILITATES TRADE.
IT'S NOT THE BE ALL AND END ALL.
IT IS NOT THE HOLY GRAIL.
IT IS ONE VEHICLE TO HELP
COMPANIES ACCESS NEW MARKETS.
SO WE CAN'T JUST FOCUS ON
EUROPE, WE NEED TO LOOK AT THE
GLOBAL PICTURE.
AND THE UNITED STATES, EUROPE,
ASIA, MIDDLE EAST, NORTH AFRICA,
LATIN AMERICA AND THE CARIBBEAN,
ARE ALL KEY MARKETS.
THESE ARE JUST VEHICLES AND
INSTRUMENTS THAT ARE PART OF A
GLOBAL STRATEGY THAT WE NEED TO
PUT IN PLACE.
SO THE FACT THAT THE LIBERAL
GOVERNMENT PICKED THIS UP,
STALLED NEGOTIATIONS, THEY MOVED
THE BALL FORWARD, THEY DID IT
VERY WELL, THERE WAS A BIT OF A
HICCUP, YOU KNOW, A COUPLE OF
BLOOPERS ALONG THE WAY, BUT THEY
ACTUALLY GOT THE JOB DONE WHEN
THE AGREEMENT WILL BE SIGNED.

The caption changes to "Producer: Gregg Thurlbeck, @GreggThurlbeck"

Steve says SPEAKING OF GETTING
THE JOB DONE, OUR JOB IS DONE.
THAT'S OUR TIME.
ANGELLA MacEWEN FROM THE
CANADIAN LABOUR CONGRESS.
GOOD OF YOU TO JOIN US ON TVO
TONIGHT.
OMAR ALLAM, FOUNDER OF THE ALLAM
ADVISORY GROUP.
MY THANKS TO YOU AS WELL.

Omar says THANK YOU.

Angella says THANK YOU.

Watch: CETA: Back From the Brink?