Transcript: Washing Out Antibacterial Soap | Sep 28, 2016

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and striped purple and blue tie.

A caption on screen reads "Washing out antibacterial soap. @spaikin, @theagenda."

Steve says IN OUR CLEAN-OBSESSED
CULTURE, ANTI BACTERIAL SOAPS
AND LOTIONS ARE VIRTUALLY EVERY
WHERE.
IN OUR KITCHENS, MALLS, AND
OFFICE BUILDINGS.
BUT EARLIER THIS MONTH THE U.S.
FOOD AND DRUG AND MINISTRATION
DECIDED TO BAN MANY OF THE
INGREDIENTS IN THESE PRODUCTS
BECAUSE OF CONCERNS ABOUT THE
SAFETY AND EFFECTIVENESS OF THE
CHEMICALS FOR CONSUMER USE.
JOINING US NOW TO CONSIDER
WHETHER CANADA SHOULD FOLLOW
SUIT ALAN MIDDLETON, ASSISTANT
PROFESSOR OF MARKETING AT THE
SCHULICH SCHOOL OF BUSINESS.

Alan is in his late fifties, clean-shaven, with short side-parted gray hair. He's wearing glasses, a gray suit, white shirt, and spotted gray tie.

Steve continues CARLY WEEKS.
FROM THE "GLOBE and MAIL..."

Carly is in her thirties, with long wavy blond hair. She's wearing a black sleeveless shirt and a golden necklace.

Steve continues AND MAGGIE MacDONALD.
PROGRAM MANAGER TOXICS WITH
ENVIRONMENT DEFENCE.

Maggie is in her thirties, with long straight brown hair and bangs. She's wearing a gray blazer over a bright red shirt.

Steve continues ALAN IT'S GREAT TO HAVE YOU BACK
HERE AGAIN AND YOU, TOO, FOR THE
FIRST TIME ON OUR PROGRAM.
NICE TO SEE YOU BOTH.
CARLY, WHY DID THE FDA BAN ANTI BACTERIAL SOAPS IN THE UNITED STATES?

The caption changes to "Carly Weeks. The Globe and Mail."
Then, it changes again to "Bad for your hands."

Carly says FOR A LONG TIME THEY
PROMISED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT
ENVIRONMENTAL SO MUCHS AND THEY
DIDN'T.
SO A ENVIRONMENTAL GROUP SUED
THEM PUSHING THEM TO TAKES
ACTION.
WHAT THE FDA SAID TO THE
MANUFACTURERS PROVE TO US THAT
THESE INGREDIENTS ARE SAFE.
THEY GAVE THEM SOME TIME AND THE
MANUFACTURERS COULDN'T DO IT.
IT'S A VERY DIFFERENT QUESTION
FROM WHAT'S NORMALLY PUT TO
CHEMICALS ON THE MARKET IT'S
VERY, VERY DIFFERENT.
USUALLY IT'S UNLESS YOU CAN
PROVE IT'S DANGEROUS IT CAN
STAY.

Steve says REVERSE ONUS.

Carly says EXACTLY.
AS WE KNOW, 19 INGREDIENTS WILL
BE ELIMINATED.

Steve says YOU MENTIONED
TRYCLOCIN.
A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE FAMILIAR
WITH IT IN ANTI BACTERIAL SOAPS
AND HAND WASHES WERE VERY
POPULAR FOR A WHILE BECAUSE A
LOT OF CONSUMERS ARE SORT OF
THIS ANTI GERM WAVE THAT ROSE
UP.
YOU KNOW, ANY GERMS ARE BAD.
WHICH IS ACTUALLY NOT TRUE.
BUT THE WHOLE IDEA IS YOU ARE
GOING TO BE KILLING ALL THE
GERMS THERE IS GOING TO BE NO
DISEASES OR GERMS GETTING TO YOU
OR YOUR KIDS.
WHAT WE NOW KNOW IS THAT THESE
INGREDIENTS ARE NO BETTER THAN
PLAIN SOAP AND WATER AT ACTUALLY
KILLING GERMS.

Steve says IS THERE ANYTHING
MAGGIE IN THESE INGREDIENTS THAT
DOES ANYTHING BENEFICIAL?

The caption changes to "Maggie MacDonald. Environmental Defence."

Maggie says WE KNOW A LOT ABOUT
THE RISKS ASSOCIATED WITH
TRYCLOCIN.
BUT A COCHRANE REVIEW WHICH IS A
METHOD LOOKING FOR BIAS IN
SCIENTIFIC STUDIES AND DOING A
LARGE REVIEW FOUND THAT THERE
WAS LIMITED EVIDENCE OF BENEFIT
FOR DENTAL HEALTH BUT THAT STUDY
DID NOT LOOK AT THE RISKS
ASSOCIATED WITH THE USE OF
TRYCLOCIN WHEN IT COMES TO HUMAN
HEALTH, WHEN IT COMES TO THE
ENVIRONMENT.
IT WAS STRICTLY LOOKING AT
DENTAL USE.
IF YOU LOOK IN THAT LIMITED
CONTEXT.
IF YOU HAVE CONCERN PROBLEMS
LIKE GINGIVITIS.
THERE MIGHT AND QUESTION OF IS
IT BETTER TO USE THIS OR NOT USE
IT BUT THE RISKS FAR OUT WAY THE
BENEFITS.

Steve says YOU SUPPORT THE USE OF A BAN.

Maggie says DEFINITELY.
IT'S TOXIC TO ALGAE.
IT'S TOXIC TO CERTAIN FISH.
AND RECENTLY WE'RE LEARNING MORE
ABOUT HUMAN HEALTH PROBLEMS THAT
CAN COME FROM SUSTAINED USE OF
TRYCLOCIN.
LOW LEVELS OF EXPOSURE OVER A
LONG PERIODS OF TIME THAT CAN
COME FROM USING YOUR FAVOURITE
PRODUCT EVERY DAY FOR MANY YEARS
ARE MORE OF A PROBLEM THAT WE
PREVIOUSLY BELIEVED.

Steve says I KNOW THAT THIS IS
NOT YOUR PROBLEM IT'S THE
CHEMICAL COMPANY'S PROBLEM.
BUT IF YOU SPENT YEARS TRYING TO
GET A DRUG TO MARKET OR PRODUCT
TO MARKET WHATEVER IT IS, ANTI
BACTERIAL... THE CHEMICAL IN
ANTI BACTERIAL SOAP AND SUDDENLY
YOU DISCOVER YOU CAN'T USE IT
ANYMORE WHAT DO YOU DO WITH IT?

Maggie says THAT'S A PROBLEM THAT
WE'RE GOING TO FACE WITH SEVERAL
CHEMICALS ON THE MARKET THAT
WE'RE LEDGE NEW THINGS ABOUT
HARMFUL EFFECTS.
BUT FORTUNATELY WHEN IT COMES TO
MAKING REGULATIONS AND NEW
POLICIES BASED ON EMERGING
SCIENCE, THERE IS A LAG TIME.
THERE IS A WARNING.
SO IT'S NOT GOING TO COME AS ANY
BIG SURPRISE TO INDUSTRY THAT
THIS DECISION HAS BEEN MADE.
IT'S BEEN IN THE WORKS FOR A
VERY LONG TIME.
AND WE CAN SEE THE EVIDENCE
THERE IN THAT A LOT OF LARGER
COMPANIES LIKE JOHNSON AND
JOHNSON, PROCTER AND GAMBLE HAVE
ALREADY MOVED AWAY FROM USING
TRYCLOCIN IN THEIR PRODUCTS AND
IT'S BECAUSE THEY'VE HAD SOME
WARNING THAT THIS MIGHT BE
COMING DOWN THE PIPE.

Steve says ALAN YOU ARE THE
MARKETING GURU HERE.
YOU ARE GOING TO TELL US HOW A
COMPANY RECOVERS FROM A
MARKETING STANDPOINT TO A
PRODUCT THAT IT MADE AND IS NOW
NO LONGER ABLE TO MAKE.

The caption changes to "Alan Middleton. Schulich School of Business."
Then, it changes again to "Pulling the plug."

Alan says I DON'T WANT TO SAY
IT'S FREQUENT BUT IT'S NOT
INFREQUENT.
SO COMPANIES WILL ALWAYS BE
DEVELOPING CONTINGENCY PLANS.
THE PROBLEM BECOMES WHEN THE IP
AGREEDIENT IS AN ABSOLUTELY
CRITICAL PART OF THEIR CLAIM.
IS THERE A PLACE THEY CAN SLIDE
TO SOMEBODY ELSE?
SO MOST COMPANIES LOOK AT TWO
THINGS STRAIGHT AWAY: NUMBER
ONE, WHAT ARE THE ALTERNATIVE
INGREDIENTS.
BUT NUMBER TWO, DOES IT AFFECT
OUR COMPETITOR IN THE SAME WAY?
BECAUSE THEIR MAIN CONCERN IS
NOT TO BE DISADVANTAGED FIRST AS
A COMPETITOR.
NOW, THE INTERESTING THING IN
THIS CASE IS DOES IT QUESTION
THE WHOLE ROLE OF ANTI
BACTERIALS WHICH IS WHAT THE
INDUSTRY IS GOING TO BE WORRIED
ABOUT.
NOT SO MUCH AS AN INGREDIENT IN
DENTAL PRODUCT OR DEODORANTS BUT
THE WHOLE ANTI BACTERIAL PUSH.
DOES IT BEGIN TO DISCREDIT THIS?
THE WHOLE INDUSTRY HAS A DEGREE
OF RETHINKING TO DO ABOUT HOW
THEY POSITION THOSE BRANDS AND
PRODUCTS.

Steve says THIS COULD BE AN EXIES
EXTENSIONAL EXISTENCIAL PROBLEM.

Alan says SOMETHING IS PART OF AN
OVERALL TREND TO SAY, YOU KNOW,
I'M REALLY WORRIED ABOUT BUGS.
AND PARTICULARLY MY KIDS AND THE
MANUFACTURER HAS JUMPED ON TO
IT.
NOW, I TEND TO AGREE WITH MY TWO
COLLEAGUES HERE THAT A LOT OF
THAT EXAGGERATION HAS TAKEN AWAY
FROM SOME EARLY CHILDHOOD BEING
EXPOSED TO THINGS TO GIVE THEM
SOME IMMUNE SYSTEM DEFENCE.
BUT IT DID CREATE A WHOLE
CATEGORY.
SO THE QUESTION IS WHAT'S GOING
TO HAPPEN TO THAT CATEGORY.

Steve says MM-HMM.
I WANT TO GET BACK TO THIS
REVERSE ONUS BUSINESS.
I SUSPECT PEOPLE ARE UNDER THE
IMPRESSION THAT IT IS THE
OBLIGATION OF THE PEOPLE WHO
MAKE THE PRODUCTS TO PROVE THAT
THEY'RE SAFE BEFORE THEY GO OUT
ON THE MARKET AS OPPOSED TO THE
REGULATOR TO PROVE THAT THEY'RE NOT.
WHY IS IT THE WAY IT IS?

Carly says IT'S VERY STRANGE.
AND YOU'RE RIGHT.
I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD BE
SURPRISED TO LEARN HOW OUR
REGULATORY SYSTEM WORKS.
FIRST I WOULD SAY THE INDUSTRY
AND THE COSMETICS, FRAGRANCE AND
TOILETRY INDUSTRY WILL SAY THE
INGREDIENTS WE USE ARE SAFE
THERE'S GOING TO BE NO HARM THAT
COMES TO YOU.
BUT ON THE FLIP SIDE THERE ARE A
LOT OF BURNING QUESTIONS AS
MAGGIE ALLUDED TO THERE ARE MORE
STUDIES COMING OUT QUESTIONING
HOW THESE EXPOSURES DO THREATEN
OUR HEALTH OVER TIME.
SO IN CANADA FOR INSTANCE,
HEALTH CANADA HAS NOT REALLY...
THEY'RE NOT REALLY IN CHARGE OF
DOING BROAD REVIEWS.
SCIENTIFIC REVIEWS OF CHEMICALS
THAT ARE PUT IN COSMETICS.
A COMPANY CAN BASICALLY JUST LET
HEALTH CANADA KNOW THAT HERE'S A
NEW LIP STICK WE'RE GOING TO
START SELLING AND HERE ARE THE
INGREDIENTS AND AS LONG AS IT
ISN'T ON A BANNED LIST OF
CHEMICALS IT'S ON THE MARKET.
THERE ARE A LOT OF QUESTIONS
ABOUT CERTAIN CHEMICALS LIKE
TRYCLOCIN, LIKE AND OTHERS.
UNLESS YOU CAN PROVE THAT THERE
IS A STUDY SHOWING THESE THINGS
ARE INHERENTLY UNSAFE THEY SEEM
FINE.

Steve says THIS IS THE EXACT ON
CITY OF MEDICINE WHICH YOU HAVE
TO PROVE IS SAFE AND EFFECTIVE
BEFORE YOU GET IT ON THE MARKET.

Carly says RIGHT.
THERE IS AN AUDITOR GENERAL'S
REPORT BASICALLY CALLING TO THE
LACK OF REGULATION AROUND THE
COST MOTOR I CANS INDUSTRY.
I THINK A LOT OF CONSUMERS WOULD
BE SURPRISED.
IT MIGHT BE TOO FAR TO CALL IT A
WILD WEST BUT I DO THINK THERE'S
A LOT MORE ROOM AND APP FOR SOME
REGULATORY ACTION HERE.
BASICALLY THE INDUSTRY SORT OF
DECIDES WHAT CHEMICALS IT IS
GOING TO USE.
THERE ARE A LOT OF QUESTIONS
ABOUT WHETHER THOSE WILL CAUSE
PROBLEMS DOWN THE LINE AND NO
ONE'S REALLY THINKING ABOUT
THEM.

Steve says WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT
THE ONUS IS NOT ON THE
MANUFACTURER TO PROVE THAT IT'S
SAFE AS OPPOSED TO THE REGULATOR
TO PROVE THAT IT ISN'T?

Maggie says IT'S QUITE FRUSTRATING
BECAUSE PUBLIC HEALTH IS AT
STAKE.
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT CHEMICALS
LINKED CANCER OR CHEMICALS THAT
CAN INFLUENCE THE BODY'S
HORMONES THIS IS QUITE A SERIOUS
MATTER.
WE KNOW THAT THE REGULATORY
SYSTEM IT'S A REPORT FROM THE
OFFICE WHICH SAYS WHEN IT COMES
TO COSMETICS THERE ISN'T
ADEQUATE PROTECTION FOR PUBLIC
SAFETY.
WE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY RIGHT NOW
TO MAKE SOME IMPROVEMENTS.
BECAUSE THE CANADIAN ENVIRONMENT
AM PROTECTION ACT IS CURRENTLY
UNDER REVIEW BY A COMMITTEE OF
PARLIAMENT.
THIS IS A GREAT MOMENT TO LOOK
AT SOME OF THOSE FLAWS IN HOW
CHEMICALS ARE MANUFACTURED.
THIS IS REALLY THE TIME TO LOOK
AT THAT MORE DEEPLY.

Steve says I THINK I KNOW THE
ANSWER TO THIS BUT I WILL ASK IT.
IN YOUR VIEW DO YOU THINK THE
REVERSE ONUS SHOULD BE REMOVED?

Maggie says YES, THE MODEL IN
EUROPE SHALL NO DATA NO MARKET.
WE KNOW THAT THEIR SYSTEM HASN'T
BEEN FUNCTIONING PERFECTLY.
BUT IT IS MUCH BETTER FOR PUBLIC
SAFETY AND PUBLIC HEALTH IF YOU
ASK IF IT'S SAFE BEFORE YOU MAKE
A CHEMICAL WIDELY AVAILABLE AND
PUT IT IN... POPULAR PRODUCTS
THAT PEOPLE PUT ON THEIR SKIN
AND INHALE.
SO IT'S MUCH MORE IMPORTANT TO
LOOK AT PUBLIC HEALTH FIRST.

Steve says CARLY WE'VE TALKED
ABOUT THE ONUS ON THE REGULATOR
AND THE COMPANY.
WHAT ABOUT THE CONSUMER?
WHAT RESPONSIBILITY DOES THE
CONSUMER HAVE HERE?

The caption changes to "Carly Weeks, @carlyweeks"

Carly says RIGHT.
I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE
BECOMING MORE SAVVY OF CHEMICALS
IN THEIR PRODUCTS THAT'S WHY
RULE' SEE FRAGRANCE-FREE
PRODUCTS.
I SEE THOSE UP TOKING UP MORE
AND MORE.
HAVE I NOTICED THAT TRYCLOCIN
AND OTHER ANTI BACTERIAL
INGREDIENTS ARE MOVING.
CONSUMERS CAN LOOK AND READ
LABELS BUT FRAGRANCE.
THAT'S A TRADE SECRET.
THERE'S NO ONE... NOT EVEN
HEALTH CANADA KNOWS WHAT GOES
INTO FRAGRANCES.
THAT MEANS EVERYTHING FROM A
SHAMPOO ALL THE WAY DOWN THE
LINE TO A DEODORANT OR A
COSMETIC YOU ARE PUTTING ON YOUR
FACE.
NO ONE KNOWS BUT THE COMPANY.
AS A CONSUMER YOU ARE REALLY
POWERLESS IN THAT SITUATION.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: @theagenda, TVO.org, YouTube, Facebook, Instagram."

Steve says ALAN I KNOW MARKETING
IS ABOUT TRYING TO GET PEOPLE TO
BUY SOMETHING THAT THEY HAVE NO
INTEREST IN BUYING BUT THEY NEED
TO FEEL THAT THEY HAVE TO HAVE.
THAT'S MARKETING.
BUT IF SOAP AND WATER IS JUST AS
EFFECTIVE AS SO-CALLED ANTI
BACTERIAL SOAP HOW HAVE THESE
BRANDS MANAGED TO CONVINCE US
THAT WE WILL NEVER BE CLEAN
ENOUGH UNLESS WE HAVE THEIR STUFF.

Alan says THE OVERALL WEIGHT OF
COMMUNICATION IS ABOUT RISK.
YOU'VE GOT ALLERGIES HAPPENING
EARLY.
HAVE YOU A WHOLE BUNCH OF
THINGS.
I WON'T GET INTO THE REASON FOR
THAT BUT WHAT IT IS MAKING IS A
PARENT... AND THE PARENT
GENERATION IS THE PRIMARY
FOCUS... SAYING THAT I AM GOING
TO STEP UP THE PROTECTION FOR MY
KID.
LET ME GO BACK TO SOMETHING YOU
SAID EARLIER IN THE
CONVERSATION.
THE DIFFICULTY FOR THE
MANUFACTURER IN PROVING THERE'S
NO HARM, IS WHAT THEY CAN DO IS
PROVE THERE MAY BE NO HARM FOR
THIS INGREDIENT IN THEIR
PRODUCT.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THIS
RAISES... WHICH IS WHY YOU NEED
AN AUTHORITY TO LOOK AT THIS IS
IS ACCUMULATION EFFECT BY A
SERIES OF OTHER PRODUCT THAT IS
THE MANUFACTURER IS NOT USING?
AND THAT'S THE DIFFICULT ONE.
BECAUSE EVEN IF YOU SWITCH AND
SAY "PROVE NO HARM."
THEN WHAT THE MANUFACTURER WILL
DO IS SAY IN THIS LEVEL AT THIS
TIME IN THIS INGREDIENT FOR THIS
BRAND, NO HARM.

Steve says BUT IT SEEMS LIKE THE
CAMPAIGN HERE IS DESIGNED TO
APPEAL TO GUILT-RIDDEN,
HELICOPTER PARENTS WHO, YOU
KNOW, HAVE TO HAVE EVERYTHING
ABSOLUTELY SPIC AND SPAN CLEAN
FOR LITTLE JOHNNY OR JANEY
BECAUSE GOD FORBID THEY MIGHT
GET A COLD.

Alan says AS MARKETERS UNDERSTAND
IT'S ALMOST AS IF YOU ARE
REINFORCING THE FEELING THAT YOU
ARE DOING THE BEST SO YOU AREN'T
DOING THE BEST UNLESS YOU GO TO
THAT EXTENT.
YOU'RE LEANING OVER BACKWARDS.

Steve says THERE'S THE GUILT.

Alan says FEAR, UNCERTAINTY AND
DOUBT ARE THREE GREAT
MECHANISMINGS IN MARKETING.
FEAR, UNCERTAINTY, DOUBT.
THE F.U.D. FACTOR.

Steve says GOT TO REMEMBER THAT.
ANY PUSH BACK FROM THE COMPANIES
THAT MAKE THESE SOAPS?

Carly says I HAVEN'T TALKED TO
THEM SPECIFICALLY BUT THEY HAVE
BEEN... THEY HAVE SEEN THE
WRITING ON THE WALL.
THEY'VE BEEN FACING THESE
PRODUCTS OUT T IS A LOT HARDER
TO FIND ANTI BACTERIAL SOAP.
AND OFTEN TIMES COMPANIES WILL
TRY THROW GET OUT OF THESE
REGULATIONS.
WE'VE DONE SOMETHING.
WE DON'T THINK THESE INGREDIENTS
ARE DANGEROUS.
BUT YOU DON'T NEED TO REGULATE
BECAUSE WE'RE ALREADY DOING IT
FOR YOU.
THAT'S WHAT THEY TRY AND DO.
NOW OBVIOUSLY THEY HAVEN'T BEEN
ABLE TO ESCAPE THE REGULATION IN
THE UNITED STATES.

Steve says YOU TELL ME, MAGGIE.
SOME PEOPLE WOULD SAY THERE'S A
BALANCING ACT THAT HAS TO BE
PLAYED HERE.
IF YOU WANT TO OVERREGULATE THE
HELL OUT OF THIS STUFF NO
COMPANIES ARE GOING TO SET UP
SHOP HERE.
THE JOB THAT IS WE WANT THAT ARE
PROBABLY PRETTY GOOD PAYING JOBS
THAT WILL PAY SIGNIFICANT TAXES
TO, YOU KNOW, THE TREASURY TO
MAKE SURE WE GET OUR HOSPITALS
AND ROADS BUILT.
IF YOU OVERREGULATE THE HELL OUT
OF THESE THINGS ALL THESE THINGS
WILL DISAPPEAR DO YOU LOOK AT
THAT AT ALL?

Maggie says WHEN WE LOOK AT
MANUFACTURING IT'S MARKETED IN A
DIFFERENT COUNTRY.
IN CANADA WHEN WE LOOKING AT
PRODUCTS THAT CONTAIN TRYCLOCIN
IT'S NOT THE ALCOHOL-BASED
SANITIZERS BY THE WAY IT'S THE
ONE THAT HAVE THE ENDOCRINE
CHEMICALS.
WE DON'T HAVE A SIGNIFICANT RISK
OF LOSING JOBS IF WE CHANGE WHAT
CAN BE SOLD HERE.
BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
WHAT'S MADE AVAILABLE TO
CONSUMERS.
SO THEY NEED TO SELL DEODORANT
IN SIMILAR PRODUCTS.
AND COSMETICS NO MATTER WHAT'S
IN THEM THEIR MARKET IS TO SELL
IT.
THIS ISN'T SOMETHING WHERE
THERE'S A HUGE RISK TO THE
ECONOMY BY MAKING THIS CHANGE
AND REGULATING THE SUBSTANCE.
BUT THERE IS A RISK IF CANADA
DOESN'T MOVE ON IT BECAUSE IT'S
BEING BANNED IN THE E.U., AND
THE U.S. WE COULD BECOME A
DUMPING GROUND FOR PRODUCTS FROM
ELSEWHERE.

Steve says HAS HEALTH CANADA
DECIDED IF THEY WILL FOLLOW THE
U.S. EXAMPLE?

The caption changes to "Raising the bar."

Carly says THEY HAVEN'T YET.
I HAVE TALKED TO HEALTH CANADA.
THEY'RE IN THE PROCESS OF
REVIEWING TRYCLOCIN AND OTHER
ANTI BACTERIAL INGREDIENTS.
OFTEN TIMES HEALTH CANADA MAKES
DECISIONS IN LOCK STEP WITH THE
FDA.
THIS IS NOT YOUR TYPICAL FDA
DECISION.
IT'S GOING TO BE REALLY
INTERESTING TO SEE WHAT HEALTH
CANADA DOES.
ARE WE GOING TO SEE CANADA
BECOME A DUMPING GROUND?
OR ARE THEY GOING TO FOLLOW THE
LEAD OF THE FDA AND GET RID OF
THESE POTENTIALLY HARMFUL
INGREDIENTS?

Steve says DO YOU KNOW, MAGGIE
WHICH REGULATOR TENDS TO HAVE
MORE TEETH, THE CANADIAN OR
AMERICAN ONE?

The caption changes to "Maggie MacDonald, @MacDonaldMaggie"

Maggie says HISTORICALLY WE DID
SEE CANADA MOVING AHEAD OF THE
U.S. BUT IN RECENT TIMES WE HAVE
SEEN A FEW MAJOR DECISIONS WHERE
THE U.S. HAS MOVED AHEAD OF
CANADA.
MICROBEADS AND NOW TRYCLOCIN ARE
STEPPINGS THAT THE U.S.
GOVERNMENT HAS TAKEN.

Steve says WHAT WAS THE FIRST ONE?

Maggie says THE TYPE I PIECES
THAT ARE IN PRODUCTS.
AND THE S. HARKS MOSS MOVE HAS
MOVED AHEAD OF CANADA ON THAT
VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE.
I WOULD LIKE TO SEE US GET OUT
AHEAD OF THE U.S. AND MAYBE FIND
A COMPETITIVE SPIRIT TO DO
SOMETHING FOR THE ENVIRONMENT.

Alan says YOU ASKED ABOUT
CONSUMERS EARLIER.
ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS CANADIAN
CONSUMER DOES EXPECT THE
GOVERNMENT REGULATORY BODIES TO
TAKE A MORE ACTIVE ROLE IN THIS
THAN OUR AMERICAN FRIENDS.
SO YOU ASKED A QUESTION ABOUT IS
THIS UNDERSTANDABLE.
AND IT MAY NOT BE.
AND PEOPLE AREN'T GOING TO
EXAMINE THEM.
ESPECIALLY HEALTH AND BEAUTY
AIDS.
A LOT OF T. THE FACE POWDER AND
STUFF LIKE THAT DOESN'T.
BUT WHAT THE CANADIAN CONSUMER
MOSTLY TENDS TO SAY IS IF HEALTH
CANADA AND IF THE APPROVAL FOR
IT, I'M FINE WITH THAT.

Steve says THERE IS A REASONABLE
AMOUNT OF FROM US IN THE
COUNTRY.

Alan says THERE STILL IS.
CANADIANS DESPITE THEIR MOANINGS
LOOK TO THE GOVERNMENT TO MANAGE
REGULATION IN AREAS THEY DON'T
FEEL SECURE ABOUT AND HEALTH IS
ONE OF THEM.

Steve says YOU ARE FROM THE
SCHULICH SCHOOL OF BUSINESS.
SO I WILL ASK YOU ABOUT THE
BUSINESS ANGLE.
WOULD THERE BE ANY FEARS ABOUT
PEOPLE WHO THINK ABOUT THESE
ISSUES LIKE YOU DO OVERZEALOUSLY
GOING AFTER COMPANIES LIKE THIS
WOULD IN THE LONG RUN BE
PROBLEMATIC?

Alan says OVERZEALOUSNESS, YES.
BUT IN THIS INSTANT I DON'T
THINK THERE WILL BE A MASSIVE
LOBBY.
I DON'T SEE TRUCKS CONNELLING
ACROSS THE BORDER DELIVERING
THAT STUFF.
IT'S NOT THAT SIGNIFICANT.
THERE ARE UNDOUBTEDLY OTHER
ALTERNATIVES.
BUT THE RISK ALWAYS AND WHAT THE
PHARMACEUTICAL AND COST MIT I
CAN COMPANIES AND THE OTHERS
WILL LOOK FOR IS IS THIS DOWN A
ROAD WHERE IT MAKES IT ALMOST
IMPOSSIBLE TO BRING IN A NEW
PRODUCT.
EVEN WITH SUBSTANTIAL SUPPORT
THAT IT DOESN'T... THE DANGER IS
A RISK.

Steve says ARE THE COMPANIES FOR
THESE PRODUCTS WAVING THE WHITE FLAG?

Carly says I THINK SO.
THERE ARE PLENTY OF OTHER THINGS
THEY CAN TURN THEIR ATTENTION
TO. THERE ARE SO MANY OTHER
CHEMICAL INGREDIENTS WAYS THAT
MARKET THESE PRODUCTS THAT I
THINK HAVING ANTI BACTERIAL
INGREDIENTS AWAY FROM THEM ISN'T
GOING TO BE THE LIFE CHANGING
THING WE THOUGHT.
I HAVE SEEN PARTICULAR
COMPANIES, YOU KNOW, BATH AND
BODY WORKS COMES TO MIND.
EVERY SOAP I BOUGHT WAS ANTI
BACTERIAL.
THEN I REALIZED THERE WAS A
PROBLEM HERE.
I STOPPED WITH BUYING SOAP FROM
THERE.
IN A WAY IT'S MAYBE SOMETHING TO
WIN BACK CONSUMERS OF THE MORE
BAD MATERIAL, INGREDIENTS ANY
SUBSTANCE GETS MORE COMPANIES
WANT TO DISTANCE THEMSELVES FROM
THAT INGREDIENT.

Steve says THAT WAS THE THING
THEY USED TO REALLY PROMOTE
THESE THINGS AS BEING CLOSE TO GODLINESS.

Carly says TOTALLY.
THEY HAVE TO RETHINK THE WAY
THEY DO BUSINESS.
YOU CAN JUST SELL SOAP NOW.
BUT I THINK THE MAJOR QUESTION
THAT A LOT OF US SHOULD BE
ASKING A BIT POUR FROM OUR
REGULATOR IS WHAT KIND OF...
SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE ARE WE
APPLYING TO THE OTHER CHEMICALS
ON THE MARKET?
WHAT OTHER RISKS ARE OUT THERE.

Steve says IF PEOPLE ALREADY HAVE
THESE PRODUCTS BECAUSE THEY GOT
THEM BEFORE THEY GOT THE NEWS
THAT THEY WERE POTENTIALLY
HARMFUL, WHAT DO THEY DO WITH
ALL THAT STUFF NOW?

Maggie says WELL, AS AN
ENVIRONMENTALIST YOU MIGHT
EXPECT ME TO SAY BURN IT IN THE PIT.

Steve says DUMP IT IN THE GREAT LAKES.

Maggie says NO, THAT'S NOT THE
SOLUTION.
WHEN WE LOOK AT THE RISKS FROM
TRYCLOCIN, THE PROBLEM ISN'T
THAT YOU USE IT ONCE, YOU SEE AN
EFFECT RIGHT AWAY.
IT'S THAT IT BUILDS UP IN THE
ENVIRONMENT LEAVING DIOXINS
BEHIND, FORMING CHLOROFORM WHICH
IS CARCINOGEN.
IF YOU HAVE ONE SOAP PRODUCT IN
YOUR BATHROOM WITH TRYCLOCIN IN
IT, TALES NOT... THE SOLUTION
ISN'T TO THROW IT IN THE GARBAGE
OR POUR IT DOWN THE DRAIN.
IT'S FINISH IT AND DON'T BUY IT
AGAIN.
SO REALLY CHANGING BUYING HABITS
IS WHAT WE WOULD LIKE TO
ENCOURAGE.
GETTING FAMILIAR WITH READING
PRODUCT LABELS.
IF IT HAS TRYCLOCIN IN IT AND
IT'S A HAND SOAP, FACE WASH OR
DEODORANT, IN CANADA THAT WILL
BE ON THE LABEL.
SO OWE WE HAVE THE INFORMATION
WE NEED TO MAKE BETTER DECISIONS
UNTIL HEALTH CANADA OR
ENVIRONMENT CANADA WHICH MAY BE
EVEN POISED TO ACT FAST OTHER
CURRENTLY MAKES A DECISION TO
IMPROVE SOMETHING FOR THE
ENVIRONMENT BY BANNING IT.

Steve says I DON'T HERE YOU SAY
ZERO TOLERANCE, GET RID OF IT,
DON'T EVER USE IT AGAIN.
YOU AREN'T SAYING THAT.

Maggie says I WOULD SAY NEVER USE
IT AGAIN.
BUT IF IT'S ALREADY IN YOUR
HOUSE YOU HAVE ALREADY BOUGHT IT
YOU HAVE THIS MUCH LEFT THE
ANSWER ISN'T JUST TO POUR IT OUT
BECAUSE YOU ARE STILL POLLUTING
THE ENVIRONMENT IF YOU USE T
IT'S JUST DON'T BUY IT AGAIN.

Steve says GOT T OKAY, ALLAN.
ANOTHER MARKETING QUESTION HERE.
IF THE COMPANIES WERE TO COME TO
YOU AND SAY ALAN WE'VE GOT A
PROBLEM.
REMEMBER ALL THAT STUFF WE USED
TO MAKE WE AREN'T ALLOWED TO
SELL IT ANYMORE.
WE HAVE TO COME UP WITH A
MARKETING CAMPAIGN AND YOU HAVE
TO DO IT WHAT WOULD YOU ADVISE THEM?

Alan says TAKE WHAT IS DOUBTLESS
HAPPENING ACROSS A RANGE OF
THINGS.
COKE COCA-COLA JUST LAUNCHED A
GREEN COKE.

Alan says GREEN LABEL.
AND YOU LOOK AT THAT AS A TREND
AND LOOK AT SOME OF THE PUSH
BACK ON CHEMICAL ADDITIONS.
THIS IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL
GIVEN THE PRODUCT.
THAT'S WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR.
YOU ARE LOOKING FOR THOSE
NATURAL COMBINATIONS OF
INGREDIENTS AND THAT'S WHERE YOU
GO.
YOU DON'T GIVE UP THE ANTI
BACTERIAL.
SORRY THAT'S NOT GOING TO
HAPPEN.
BUT THERE IS WHETHER WE LIKE IT
OR NOT A SUBSTANTIAL PART OF THE
POPULATION THAT REGARDS
PROTECTION OF FAMILY AS A
PROTECTIONIST WAY NOW, CAN YOU
GET ACROSS THE OTHER WAYS OF
DOING IT THAT IS MORE BASIC?
YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE SCARED?
VERY DIFFICULT IN THIS
ENVIRONMENT.
VERY DIFFICULT.
WE ALL WANT CONSUMERS TO READ
LABELS TO UNDERSTAND THEM.
90 percent DON'T READ THEM AND THOSE
THAT DO, MOST OF THEM DON'T READ
HALF THE TERMS.

Steve says IF I INFER CORRECTLY
THE WORD "NATURAL" IS STILL
MAGIC IN YOUR BUSINESS.

Alan says AND IT WILL ALWAYS BE
NATURAL.
IT'S HARDER TO GET THROUGH
GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS IN MOST
REGULATED ENVIRONMENTS,
PACKAGING, ADVERTISING BUT
ABSOLUTELY.
WE'RE EXPECTTH THE STUFF TO COME
TO HELP US FROM TREES, PLANTS,
WHEREVER.

Steve says OKAY.
FRIENDS, RIGHT AFTER THIS
DISCUSSION IS OVER, WHICH WILL
BE IN ABOUT 30 SECONDS, I INVITE
TO YOU GO TO THE MAKE UP ROOM
AND USE OUR ANTI BACTERIAL SOAP
TO TAKE OFF YOUR MAKE UP.
MAYBE I WON'T ADVISE YOU TO DO THAT.

They all chuckle.

The caption changes to "Producer: Colin Ellis, @ColinEllis81"

Steve continues MAGGIE MacDONALD, TOXICS
PROGRAM MANAGER.
ALAN MIDDLETON, ASSISTANT
PROFESSOR OF MARKETING AT
SCHULICH AND THE EXECUTIVE
DIRECTOR OF SCHULICH EDUCATION
CENTRE AND THERES CARLY WEEKS.
HEALTH COLUMNIST FROM THE "GLOBE
and MAIL."
I FEEL CLEANER HAVING THIS
DISCUSSION.
THANKS, EVERYBODY.

All the guests say THANK YOU.

Watch: Washing Out Antibacterial Soap