Transcript: The High Price of Housing | Sep 26, 2016

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, a lilac shirt, and a patterned lilac and blue tie.

A caption reads "The high price of housing."

The caption changes to "Twitter: @spaikin and @theagenda."

Steve says THE NUMBERS SPEAK FOR
THEMSELVES.
THE AVERAGE COST OF A DETACHED
HOUSE IN ONTARIO'S CAPITAL CITY
JUMPED TO NEARLY 1.2 MILLION DOLLARS IN
AUGUST.
AND THE AVERAGE PRICE ACROSS ALL
TYPES OF HOMES IN THE CITY NOW
SITS AT 678,000 DOLLARS.
TO CONSIDER WHETHER CITY LIVING
ITSELF HAS NOW BECOME AN
EXTRAVAGANT WE WELCOME MELANIE
HARE PARTNER AT URBAN STRATEGIES INC,

Melanie is in her late forties, with short slightly wavy gray hair. She wears an orange top. A gray blazer, a silver necklace and silver earrings.

Steve says BEN MEYERS.
SENIOR VICE-PRESIDENT OF
MARKET RESEARCH AND ANALYTICS FORTRESS
REAL DEVELOPMENTS

Ben is in his forties, clean-shaven and with short wavy brown hair. He wears a blue suit, a black and white gingham shirt and a deep purple tie.

Steve says AND JAY
HILLIER.
CO-EDITOR OF SUBDIVIDED.
CITY BUILDING IN AN AGE OF HYPER
DIVERSITY.

Jay is in her thirties, with short wavy light brown hair with long side swept bangs. She wears a gray tip, a black jacket and pearl earrings.

Steve says GOOD TO HAVE YOU THREE AROUND
OUR TABLE FOR FRANKLY A
RIDICULOUS DISCUSSION.
HOME PRICES NOW AT A MILLION BUCKS OR MORE.
JUST UNBELIEVABLE.
LET'S GET THE TABLE SET WITH THE
NEW YORKER MAGAZINE.

A slate appears with the caption "The cost of city living.
Cities that planners thought would hollow out and become obsolete have instead become magnets for increasing concentrations of wealth. The more expensive they are, the more closed they become to everyone but those who already have money – pushing them to become more expensive still. In turn, imperial cities become wellsprings of resentment both for residents who can no longer afford them and for those who live outside and see the concentration of wealth mainly in the light of their televisions screens. Mark Gimein, The New Yorker (August 25, 2016)."

Steve says LET'S START WITH THIS,
JAY, GET US STARTED.
HAS HOUSING IN TORONTO BECOME A
LUXURY GOOD ONLY AFFORDABLE TO
RICH PEOPLE?

The caption changes to "The high price of housing. A luxury good?"

The caption changes to "Jay Pitter. Co-Editor of "Subdivided’."

Jay says ABSOLUTELY.
I WOULD GO A STEP FURTHER AND
SAY THAT HOUSING IS INFRINGING
ON PEOPLE'S HUMAN RIGHTS.
THE UNITED NATIONS HAS
CRITICIZED CANADA PUBLICLY FOR
HAVING A LACK OF SOCIAL HOUSING.
FOR HAVING INADEQUATE SUPPORTS
FOR INDIVIDUALS WITH
DISABILITIES AND MENTAL HEALTH
CONDITIONS.
FOR HAVING AN INCREASE IN THE
HOMELESS POPULATION AND PERHAPS
MOST SHAMEFULLY, FOR HAVING
INADEQUATE HOUSING FOR
INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES.

Steve says MELANIE, WHAT'S YOUR
VIEW ON WHETHER HOUSING IS NOW
FOR THE RICH ONLY IN THE CAPITAL
CITY OF THIS PROVINCE?

The caption changes to "Melanie Hare. Urban Strategies."

Melanie says STEVEN, INCREASINGLY SO,
ABSOLUTELY.
I THINK WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT
FOR MANY, MANY DECADES, TORONTO
HAS BEEN COMPARATIVELY... ITS
HOUSING MARKET HAS BEEN
RELATIVELY LOW COMPARED TO... IN
COSTS COMPARED TO SOME OF THE
GLOBAL CITIES THAT WE LIKE TO
COMPETE AGAINST.
SO THE IMPERATIVE IS INCREDIBLY
APPARENT WITH SOME OF THE
NUMBERS THAT YOU HAVE IDENTIFIED
TODAY AND WE SEE THESE TRENDS IN
SOME OF THE ISSUES.
THE INCLUSIVENESS THAT JAY HAS
RAISED.
BUT I THINK THERE'S ALSO AN
OPPORTUNITY TO REALLY STEP UP
THE GAME.
AND THERE ARE SOME RESPONSE THAT
IS ARE POSSIBLE.
THERE ARE TOOLS THAT WE CAN
BRING TO THE TABLE.
I THINK THERE ARE SOME DESIGN
SOLUTIONS.
AND THERE'S REALLY PUSHING...

Steve says HOLD OFF ON TOOLS
WE'LL GET TO THAT IN THE COURSE
OF OUR DISCUSSION.

Melanie says I THINK THERE ARE SOME
SOLUTIONS I WILL PUT IT THAT
WAY.

Steve says BEN, HOW ABOUT YOU?

The caption changes to "Ben Myers. Fortress Real Developments."

Ben says I TYPICALLY DO MARKET
PRESENTATIONS ON A REGULAR
BASIS.
AFTER ONE OF THEM A LADY CAME UP
TO ME AND WAS KIND OF DISTRAUGHT
SAYING HER CHILDREN JUST
GRADUATED UNIVERSITY AND CAN'T
AFFORD A SINGLE DETACHED HOME.
WEIRD THE THING THAT CAME TO
MIND IS THAT SINGLE DETACHED
HOUSING HAS GONE FROM BEING A
LEXUS TO A LAMBORGHINI.
NOW IT'S A LAMBORGHINI.
ALMOST NOT AFFORDABLE WHATSOEVER
TO BUY A SINGLE DETACHED HOME.
AND WHY THAT IS WE'VE RUN OUT OF
LOW RISE LAND.
THERE'S NO MORE LAND IN THE CITY
OF TORONTO TO BUILD ON TO
SATISFY THE HIGH LEVEL OF DEMAND
THAT'S COMING ONTO THE
MARKETPLACE.

Steve says JAY, LET ME PLAY
DEVIL'S ADVOCATE AND PUSH BACK A
BIT.
THE MARKET IS THE MARKET.
THE MARKET DECIDES WHAT STUFF'S
WORTH.
AND WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT
SOMEBODY WHO JUST GRADUATES FROM
COLLEGE OR UNIVERSITY IS
ENTITLED TO LIVE IN THE MOST
EXPENSIVE CITY IN THE COUNTRY?

Jay says SO YOU KNOW THAT'S A REALLY
INTERESTING QUESTION.
BECAUSE THE MARKET IS THE
MARKET.
BUT WHEN THE MARKET IS BEING
USED TO CREATE SOCIAL DIVIDES
AND CLASS DIVIDES, THEN IT
BECOMES A PROBLEM.
SO THIS IS NOT NEUTRAL WHAT'S
HAPPENING WITH THE MARKET.
AND ALSO, I WANT TO SAY, THAT
THAT YOUNG PERSON GRADUATING
FROM UNIVERSITY, THEY'RE MY
CONCERN BUT THEY'RE NOT MY TOP
CONCERN.
LET'S TALK ABOUT IMMIGRANTS AND
NEWCOMERS COMING INTO THIS CITY.
OR, AGAIN, PEOPLE WITH MENTAL
HEALTH CONDITIONS.
I'M MOST CONCERNED ABOUT THE
MOST VULNERABLE CITIZENS WHOSE
LIVES ARE AT RISK LIVING IN
UNSAFE, UNDIGNIFIED, UNSTABLE
HOUSING.

Steve says FAIR ENOUGH.
BUT THAT'S THE POINT WHERE, YOU
KNOW, GOVERNMENT IS SUPPOSED TO
COME IN PRESUMABLY AND CREATE A
SET OF CIRCUMSTANCE THAT IS
WOULD ALLOW THOSE PEOPLE TO LIVE
IN DIGNITY EVEN IN THE CITY OF
TORONTO.
IS THAT HAPPENING?

Jay says IT'S NOT HAPPENING.
BUT I WOULD CHALLENGE YOU AND
SAY IT'S NOT JUST THE
GOVERNMENT'S RESPONSIBILITY.
IT'S EVERYONE'S RESPONSIBILITY.
IT'S THE DESIGN COMMUNITY'S
RESPONSIBILITY.
IT'S THE DEVELOPER'S
RESPONSIBILITY.
IT'S MY RESPONSIBILITY AS A
PLACE MAKER.
WE SHOULD ALL BE INVESTED IN
TREATING JUST AND ACCESSIBLE
CITIES FOR ALL.

Steve says BEN DO YOU SEE THAT AS
YOUR RESPONSIBILITY?

Ben says WELL, I THINK DEVELOPERS DO
HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF A
RESPONSIBILITY TO BUILD THE TYPE
OF HOUSING THAT THE PEOPLE WANT.
AND THAT PEOPLE NEED.
I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN A
SUPPORTER...

Steve says THOSE ARE TWO
DIFFERENT THINGS.

Ben says YES.

Steve says WE KNOW YOU'RE IN THE
BUSINESS OF PUTTING UP HOUSING
THAT PEOPLE WANT.

Ben says MM-HMM.

Steve says THIS IS DIFFERENT.
ARE YOU RESPONSIBLE FOR BUILDING
THAT, TOO?

Ben says I THINK WE HAVE A LITTLE BIT
OF RESPONSIBILITY.
NOT 100 percent RESPONSIBILITY.

Jay says WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY "A LITTLE
BIT."

Ben says A BIT OF OUR PROFIT AND A BIT
OF OUR SPACE THAT WE HAVE IN
DEVELOPMENT PROJECTS SHOULD BE
USED FOR LOW INCOME FAMILIES.
I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN A SUPPORTER
OF INCLUSIONARY DISOWNING.
I THINK THAT THE GOVERNMENT
SHOULD HELP PAY FOR THAT.
WE HAVE THE EXPERTISE IN
BUILDING THESE UNITS.
WE HAVE THE SITES.
ALLOW US TO EITHER BUILD THEM
HIGHER OR GIVE US A FAST PATH IN
THE DEVELOPMENTS APPROVALS
PROCESS THAT WE CAN SAVE A
LITTLE BIT HERE SO WE CAN SPEND
MORE TO DO THE TYPE OF SOCIAL
GRASS ROOTS THINGS THAT NEED TO
BE DONE TO HELP THE CITY GROW
AND BE AN INCLUSIVE PLACE.

Steve says MELANIE MAYBE I CAN
GET YOU TO WEIGH IN ON THIS
ISSUE. HOW MUCH RESPONSIBILITY
DO YOU FEEL THE PRIVATE SECTOR
HAS VERSUS GOVERNMENT.
WE UNDERSTAND GOVERNMENT'S ROLE
AND RESPONSIBILITY BUT THE
PRIVATE SECTOR'S ROLE TO CREATE
THE KIND OF HOUSING THAT WOULD
DEAL WITH SOME OF THE REALLY
HARD TO SERVE PEOPLE THAT JAY
JUST REFERRED TO?

Melanie says I THINK THERE IS A ROLE.
FOR SURE.
I THINK THERE IS A ROLE OF BEING
PARTNERS.
IT'S HELPFUL IF WE BROADEN THE
DISCUSSION, THOUGH, FROM HOUSING
A SINGLE HOUSING FAMILY TO
HOUSING TO MEET THE NEEDS OF
PEOPLE WHETHER THEY'RE THE MOST
VULNERABLE OR NEW HOME OPENERS
AND-OR PEOPLE THAT ARE AGING IN
PLACE. AND WE WANT TO CHANGE
THEIR HOUSING FORUM.
SO I THINK THE ROLE, YOU KNOW, I
THINK WE SEE INCREASINGLY
DEVELOPMENT COMMUNITY
RECOGNIZING THEIR ROLES THAT
THEY NEED TO COME TO THE TABLE
THE GOVERNMENT NEEDING BETTER
TOOLS IN PLACE TO ALLOW
MUNICIPALITIES TO KIND OF INCENT
THAT AS WELL AS REQUIRE THAT IN
SOME INSTANCES.
I ALSO THINK WE NEED TO THINK OF
A WHOLE RANGE OF HOUSING STOCK
WHICH IS NOT NECESSARILY A
SINGLE FAMILY HOUSE OR A
PALLADIUM PALACE.
I THINK THERE ARE SOME
COMMUNITIES THAT NEED TO THINK
ABOUT THE BROAD SPECTRUM.
NEW CANADIANS COMING ARE A
WONDERFUL ASSET FOR OUR ECONOMY,
FOR OUR COMMUNITIES.
FOR THE CULTURAL DIVERSITY.
AND THEY COME WITH VERY
DIFFERENT EXPECTATIONS IN TERMS
OF HOUSING.
SO I THINK WE ALSO NEED TO SHAKE
THE MYTH THAT HOUSING IS THE
LUXURY OF HOUSING IS ONLY SINGLE
FAMILY HOUSING.
I THINK THERE'S A WHOLE RANGE OF
HOUSING TYPES AND UNIT THAT IS
CAN COME FORWARD.

Steve says AND PRESUMABLY
AFFORDABILITY ISN'T JUST FOR
HOMEOWNERS.

Melanie says ABSOLUTELY NOT.

Steve says LET'S PUT SOME NUMBERS
UP.
THESE ARE ALL FROM THE TORONTO
REAL ESTATE BOARD.
SHELDON, IF YOU WOULD.

A chart appears on screen with the caption "Housing in Toronto. August 2016. Detached: Average price = 1,206,637 dollars (up 18.3 percent since August 2015); Semi-detached: Average price = 774,700 dollars (up 16.4 percent since August 2015); Townhouse: Average price = 614,638 dollars (up 16.9 percent since August 2015); Condo apartment: Average price = 446,612 dollars (up 9.8 percent since August 2015. Toronto Real Estate Board (August 2016)."

Steve says THE AVERAGE PRICE OF A DETACHED
HOME IN TORONTO HAS RISEN AS WE
SUGGESTED IN THE INTERIM NORTH
OF 1.2 MILLION DOLLARS.
THAT'S UP 178 percent-PLUS.
FROM A YEAR AGO.
A SEMI DETACHED WILL EVEN COST
775,000.
THAT'S UP 16 percent-PLUS FROM A YEAR
AGO.
THE AVERAGE PRICE OF A
TOWNHOUSES UP AGAIN ALMOST 17 percent.
AND FINALLY, CONDOS, A LOT OF
PEOPLE THINK CONDOS IS A GOOD
STARTER WAY TO GET INTO THE
MARKET.
THAT'S THE AVERAGE PRICE OF A
CONDO IN TORONTO NOW, ALMOST
450,000.
EVEN THAT IS UP NEARLY 10 percent.
OF COURSE THESE NUMBERS ON THE
RIGHT-HAND COLUMN ALL WELL
BEYOND INFLATION.
REAL ESTATE IS JUST MANY BOOING.
OKAY.
LET'S PUT ONE MORE CHART UP
HERE.
LET'S LOOK AT RENT.

Another chart appears with the caption "Rentals in Toronto. Second quarter 2016. Bachelor: Average Rent = 1,425 dollars (up 6.8 percent one year change); One bedroom: Average Rent = 1,710 (up 6.4 percent one year change); Two bedroom Average Rent = 2,330 (up 4.1 percent one year change). Toronto Real Estate Board (July 21, 2016)."

MAYBE YOU DON'T WANT TO BUY.
YOU WANT TO RENT.
THAT'S PRETTY TOUGH, TOO, IN THE
CAPITAL CITY FOR A BACHELOR
APARTMENT IT ROSE TO NEARLY
1,400 DOLLARS FOR A ONE BEDROOM.
MORE THAN 1,700.
AND FOR A TWO BEDROOM, MORE THAN
2300.
ALL THOSE NUMBERS COURTESY OF
THE REAL ESTATE BOARD.
BEN, YOU KNOW YOUR CUSTOMERS.
LET'S FIGURE THIS OUT.
ARE PEOPLE STILL PRIMARILY
INTERESTED IN LOOKING FOR SINGLE
FAMILY DETACHED HOMES?

The caption changes to "The high price of housing. Expectations versus reality."

Ben says THAT'S BEEN THE PREFERENCE,
RIGHT.
LOOK AT ANY OF THE SURVEY THAT
IS ARE DONE ACROSS SEVERAL
DIFFERENT INDEPENDENT SOURCES
IT'S ALWAYS ANYWHERE FROM 60 TO
100 percent OF THE PEOPLE SURVEYED WANT
A SINGLE DETACHED HOME.
UP LIKE I MENTIONED THERE'S JUST
NOT THE LAND AVAILABLE.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE ENTIRE
TORONTO CMA YOU GO BACK TEN
YEARS WE WERE ADDING 30,000 NEW
LOW RISE HOMES. SO SINGLE SEMIS
IN A ROW EVERY YEAR.
LAST YEAR 12,000 WAS THE LOWEST
IT'S BEEN IN THE LAST 25 YEARS.
SO IT REALLY COMES DOWN TO
SUPPLY AND DEMAND.

Steve says HERE'S THE FOLLOW-UP
QUESTION: DO PEOPLE HAVE TO
ADJUST THEIR EXPECTATIONS OF
WHAT THEY WANT IN TERMS OF
HOUSING IN A BIG CITY LIKE THIS?

Ben says FOR SURE.
PEOPLE COMPARE THEMSELVES TO
THEIR PARENTS AND WHAT THEIR
PARENTS HAD.
AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE TORONTO
THAT THEY BOUGHT INTO IT'S A
SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT PLACE
NOW THAN IT WAS THOSE YEARS.
IT WAS JUST NOT ENOUGH PROPERTY
FOR EVERYONE TO HAVE ONE.
WITH THE CONTINUED IMMIGRATION
THAT WE ARE SEEING, WITH THE
LACK OF SUPPLY, IT'S ONLY...
PRICES ARE ONLY GOING TO GO UP.
WE CAN ONLY GO VERTICALLY.
WE CAN'T GO OUT.

Steve says LET ME GET JAY ON
THAT.

The caption changes to "Jay Pitter @Jay_Pitter."

Jay says I AM HAVING SOME TROUBLE WITH
THE WAY THAT WAS CENTRING
RELATIVELY AFFLUENT PEOPLE IN
THIS CONVERSATION.
SO I'M GOING TO GO BACK A STEP.
MY MOTHER IMMIGRATED HERE
DECADES AGO.
AND I LIVED IN SOCIAL HOUSING AS
A CHILD.
AND, YOU KNOW, AS YOU KNOW, THE
RESETTLE PROMPT ASSESSES QUITE
DIFFICULT.
BUT AFTER SOME TIME SHE WAS ABLE
TO BECOME RE-EDUCATED, SAVE SOME
MONEY AND PURCHASE A HOME SO
THAT WE COULD MOVE OUT OF SOCIAL
HOUSING.
I WANT TO STRESS TO YOU, ALSO,
THAT THE SOCIAL HOUSING
COMMUNITY THAT I MOVED OUT OF IS
A COMMUNITY WHERE I WITNESSED AN
UNDER AGE SEX RING IN WHEN I WAS
12 YEARS OLD AND IT TOOK THE
LIFE OF A FRIEND'S OLDER SISTER.
SO THIS IS A LIFE AND DEATH AND
QUALITY OF LIFE CONVERSATION
WE'RE HAVING.
AND WE'RE HAVING IT ABOUT
RELATIVELY AFFLUENT PEOPLE.
SO I NEED TO INTERRUPT THAT PART
OF THE CONVERSATION.
SO WHAT I NEED TO SAY ABOUT THE
HOUSING ISSUE AND WHERE WE ARE
IN TERMS OF AFFORDABILITY IS
THAT, FIRSTLY, MY MOTHER'S STORY
IS NOT EVEN POSSIBLE TODAY.
SO WE'RE BRINGING IN... WE ARE
INVITING, AS YOU SAY, IMMIGRANTS
TO A CITY AND THEN WE ARE
EXCLUDING THEM FROM MOBILITY AND
POSSIBILITIES.
THAT'S OUTRAGEOUS.

Steve says WHO'S THE "WE"?

Jay says I THINK THE "WE" IS ALL OF
US.
IT'S VERY EASY TO BLAME IT ON
BEN, THE RICH, WHITE DEVELOPER.
AND IT'S VERY EASY TO BLAME IT
ON URBAN PLANNERS IN THE DESIGN
WORLD.
I THINK IT'S ALL OF US.
I THINK WE ALL NEED TO CARE.
WE ALL NEED TO BE BETTER
INFORMED AND WE ALL NEED TO HAVE
MORE UNCOMFORTABLE CONVERSATIONS
ABOUT THIS ISSUE.

Melanie says I THINK THAT'S A REALLY
IMPORTANT POINT.
I WOULD JUST SAY, AGAIN, IT'S
NOT AS SIMPLE AS, YOU KNOW,
HOUSING AFFORDABILITY IS FOR
FOLKS WITH THE GREATEST NEED.

Jay says THAT'S WHY I SAID IT'S
SIMPLISTIC.

Melanie says FAIR ENOUGH.
WHAT I WAS GOING TO SAY IS IS IT
AFFORDABLE?
TORONTO?
I THINK THERE IS A SET OF MEANS
FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE THE MOST AT
RISK AND VULNERABLE.
I THINK THERE IS A SET OF NEEDS
FOR A HEALTHY HOUSING MARKET
WOULD ALLOW US YOUNG PEOPLE TO
COME DRAWN BY JOBS TO WORK HERE
THAT CAN SUPPORT OUR COMMUNITY
WEATHER THOSE ARE NURSES, FIREMEN.
WE NEED HOUSING THAT CAN WORK
FOR THOSE FOLKS AND HOUSING THAT
CAN ALLOW US ALL TO GROW INTO
OUR COMMUNITIES.
I THINK THERE'S A SPECTRUM THAT
WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND AND
DIFFERENT STRATEGIES,
PARTNERSHIPS AND POLICIES ARE
INVOLVED IN EACH OF THOSE
SPECTRUMS.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: @theagenda, tvo.org, Facebook, Youtube and Instagram."

Jay says I ABSOLUTELY AGREE THAT
THERE'S A SPECTRUM.
WHAT I AM SAYING, THOUGH, IS
THAT ALTHOUGH WE ACKNOWLEDGE
THAT THERE A HE IS A SPECTRUM,
FOLKS WHO HAVE THE MOST AFTER
INFLUENCE AND ACCESS IN THIS
CONVERSATION ARE ALL TOO OFTEN
CENTRED IN THE CONVERSATION.
SO I'M HERE TO REPRESENT THE
VOICE THAT IS DON'T GET CENTRED.
SO THE NUMBERS THAT WE LOOK AT
ON THAT SCREEN THEY DIDN'T
INCLUDE NUMBERS OF THE HOMELESS
POPULATION.
THEY DIDN'T INCLUDE HOW LONG THE
SOCIAL HOUSING WAITING LIST IS.
THEY DON'T INCLUDE NUMBERS OF
WOMEN WHO ARE LIVING IN DOMESTIC
VIOLENCE SITUATIONS.
THEY DON'T INCLUDE NUMBERS OF
INDIGENOUS PEOPLE WHO HAVE
INADEQUATE HOUSING.
SO I'M HERE TO TALK ABOUT THAT.

Steve says AND THAT IS WHY YOU
WERE INVITED TODAY.

Jay says ABSOLUTELY.

Steve says THIS ISSUE OF HOUSING
IN TORONTO, THOUGH, HAS GONE,
YOU KNOW, BEYOND THE TRADITIONAL
COMMUNITY THAT IS HAVE A TOUGH
TIME GETTING INTO THE MARKET.
AND IT NOW SEEMS TO AND
PHENOMENON THAT IS AFFECTING
DARN NEAR EVERYBODY.

Jay says THAT'S WHY WE ARE TALKING
ABOUT IT BECAUSE IT'S AFFECTING
THE AFTER INFLUENCE.

Steve says OKAY.
UNDERSTOOD.
SO WE NEED TO REFRAME OUR NOTION
OF WHAT AFFORDABLE MEANS
NOWADAYS.

Melanie says I THINK WE MIGHT AND I THINK
WE HAVE TO BE MORE SOPHISTICATED
IN TERMS OF HOW WE TARGET THAT.
IT DOES HAVE VERY DIFFERENT
NEEDS.
WE'RE ONE OF THE FEW COUNTRIES
IN THE DEVELOPING WORLD THAT
DON'T HAVE A NATIONAL HOUSING
PROGRAM.
WE HAVE A VERY, VERY MODEST IF
ANY PROGRAM IN THE PROVINCE WHEN
I FIRST STARTED MY CAREER 25
YEARS AGO I WORKED IN THE
AFFORDABLE HOUSING SECTOR FOR
NON-PROFITABLE CO-OP HOUSING.
THAT'S WHEN IT ENDED IN THE
MID-NINE 0s.
I THINK SOME OF THIS WE'RE
SUFFERING A LITTLE BIT FROM OUR
SUCCESS OF OUR CITY.
IT CONTINUES TO GROW.
AND EXPAND AND BE A MAGNET FOR
INVESTMENT WORLDWIDE INVESTMENT
WHERE OTHER PLACES, YOU KNOW, IN
2008 AND NORTH AMERICA HAVE SEEN
A DECLINE.
BUT I THINK WE NEED A MUCH MORE
SOPHISTICATED DISCUSSION ABOUT
THE RANGE OF MEANS.
THE RANGE OF PEOPLE.
WHO SHOULD BE PART OF THE TABLE.
AND MOVING THAT FORWARD.
AND I THINK THERE ALSO IS A
CHANGING DEMOGRAPHIC AND NEED.
AND THE MILLENNIALS WHO... MANY
OF WHOM WE HAVE SOME WONDERFUL
PEOPLE IN OUR OFFICE WHO
ARGUABLY ARE OF THAT AGE GROUP,
HAVE A LOT OF PROMISE AND A LOT
OF, YOU KNOW, RELATIVE WEALTH.
I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S "WEALTH."
BUT THEY STILL HAVE TROUBLE
MOVING INTO THE HOUSING MARKET.
BUT THEY HAVE A VERY DIFFERENT
DESIRE IN SOME INSTANCES.
HOMEOWNERSHIP MAY NOT BE THE
SOLUTION FOR THEM.

Steve says SURE.
LET'S TALK ABOUT... THERE ARE
100,000 PEOPLE MOVING INTO
TORONTO EVERY YEAR.
100,000 NEW PEOPLE ALL NEEDING A
PLACE TO LIVE.
IS IT EVEN POSSIBLE TO MAKE...
GIVEN SUPPLY AND DEMAND AND THE
PRESSURES ON THE HOUSING MARKET
AS A RESULT OF THAT KIND OF IP
FLUX, IS IT EVEN POSSIBLE TO
CONSIDER MAKING HOMES MORE
AFFORDABLE?

Ben says IT'S DIFFICULT.
OBVIOUSLY FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE
FOR 100,000 NEW PEOPLE, YOU NEED
AT LEAST 40,000 NEW HOMES TO
HOUSE THESE PEOPLE.
AND YOU LOOK AT MY JOB, THERE
ARE INPUT COSTS THAT ARE FIXED,
LABOUR AND OBVIOUSLY LAND PRICES
ARE ONLY CONTINUALLY GOING UP
BECAUSE THERE'S LESS LAND TO
BUY, RIGHT.
SO THESE RIP PUTS WE CAN'T
CHANGE SO IT MAKES IT DIFFICULT
TO LOWER THE PRICE ANY LOWER
THAN IT ALREADY IS.
SO THERE'S THIS GROUP THAT
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
WE CAPTAIN SERVICE IN THE
DEVELOPMENT INDUSTRY.
WE CAN'T SERVICE IN THE
DEVELOPMENT INDUSTRY.
IT HAS TO BE SUBSIDIZED
SOMEWHERE BY THE GOVERNMENT.
HOW THAT HAPPENS HOW WE CAN GET
INVOLVED IN IT THAT'S UP FOR
QUESTION AND UP FOR DEBATE.
THE PARTNERSHIPS.

Steve says YOU USED A TERM A
WHILE AGO "INCLUSIONARY
DISOWNING."

Ben says MM-HMM.

Steve says TAKE 30 SECONDS AND
TALK ABOUT WHAT THAT IS AND
WHETHER IT WOULD CHANGE
ANYTHING.

Ben says EACH DEVELOPMENT PROJECT,
TYPICALLY A HIGH RISE
DEVELOPMENT PROJECT WILL INCLUDE
SOME EITHER SOCIAL HOUSING, RENT
GEARED TO INCOME, SOME TYPE OF
AFFORDABLE UNITS WITHIN THE
PROJECT.
EITHER COMPLETELY SEPARATED OR
MIXED WITHIN THE ENTIRE
BUILDING.

Steve says WHICH YOU THE
DEVELOPER PRESUMABLY IS SUPPOSED
TO SUBSIDIZE.

Ben says YES.
SO WE WOULD PUT SOME OF OUR
MONDAY MY IN A TRADE-OFF, IN AN
EXCHANGE FOR EITHER ALLOWING
HIGHER DENSITY WITHIN THE
BUILDING.
YOU KNOW, MORE UNITS.
OR SOME TYPE OF, YOU KNOW, WHAT
I SAY A FAST PATH OR TO GET US
APPROVED QUICKER.
OBVIOUSLY TIME IS MONEY.
THE FASTER WE CAN GET APPROVED
THE BETTER.
SO THERE HAS TO BE SOME KIND OF
TRADE-OFF THERE.
OBVIOUSLY THE MARGINS ARE THE
MARGINS.
DO WE NEED TO MAINTAIN THOSE OR
WE CAN'T BUILD A PROJECT.

Steve says JAY, IS THIS A... IS
THAT A RELATIVELY GOOD OPTION
GOING FORWARD?
TERMS OF TRYING TO HELP THE
PEOPLE THAT YOU ARE HERE
REPRESENTING TODAY?

Jay says I THINK WE NEED MANY, MANY
OPTIONS.
SO I THINK THAT'S ONE OPTION.
I THINK MORE MIXED INCOME
HOUSING IS ANOTHER OPTION.
I THINK MID-RISE HOUSING IS AN
OPTION.
I THINK THE CONDO DEVELOPMENTS,
YOU KNOW, AS A FULL SORT OF
HOUSING TYPOLOGY IS AN ISSUE.
I THINK TO WHAT YOU SAID, WE
NEED DIFFERENT TYPES OF HOUSING.
AND SO I THINK THERE'S A
MULTIPLICITY OF OPTIONS.
AND I THINK THE KEY ISSUE IS
THAT WE ARE NOT HAVING
CONVERSATIONS ACROSS
COMMUNITIES, ACROSS DISCIPLINES,
ACROSS SECTORS.

Steve says WHEN YOU SAY "WE," DO
YOU BASE IT... I WANT TO READ
BETWEEN THE LINES MERE.

Jay says ABSOLUTELY.

Steve says ARE YOU BASICALLY
SAYING RICH PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO
LIVE NEAR POOR PEOPLE IS THAT
THE PROBLEM HERE?

Jay says THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING.
I'LL ANSWER BOTH QUESTIONS.
WHEN I SAY "WE," I MEAN THOSE OF
US WHO LIVE IN THE CITY WHO
CONSIDER OURSELVES TO BE CITY
BUILDERS AND WHO CARE ABOUT
TORONTO.
THAT'S WHAT I MEAN WITH THE WE.

Steve says IS THAT 416 OR THE
WHOLE GREATER TORONTO AREA?

Jay says GTA.

Steve says GREATER TORONTO AND
HAMILTON AREA.

Jay says ABSOLUTELY.

Steve says OKAY.

Jay says AND NOW TO YOUR QUESTION
ABOUT CLASS.
SO I DO THINK THAT WE DON'T HAVE
ENOUGH CONVERSATIONS ABOUT
CLASS.
I'M SURE ALL OF YOU KNOW THAT
PROFESSOR OLCHANSKY'S STUD BY
THREE CITIES.
SO EITHER WE'RE GOING TO SIT
BACK AND SAY OH, MY GOSH THIS IS
A TERRIBLE THING OR WE'RE GOING
TO DISRUPT THAT.

The caption changes to "The high price of housing.tvo.org/theagenda."

Steve says AND AGAIN, BY PUTTING
THE NAME ON THE TABLE THERE ARE
SOME PEOPLE WHO WILL RECOMMEND
THE NAME FOR THOSE WHO DON'T
JUST FILL US IN.

Jay says OKAY.
SO THE STUDY SHOWS IN THE PAST
COUPLE OF GENERATIONS, THE CITY
HAS BECOME MORE POLARIZED BY
CLASS AND RACE THAN EVER BEFORE.
SO WE'RE REALLY HEADED DOWN A
DANGEROUS PATH.
AND SO... AND SO I REFERENCE
THAT STUDY TO SAY THAT AS MUCH
AS WE SAY THAT WE LIKE
DIVERSITY, THAT WE WANT TO BRING
IN NEW IMMIGRANTS, THAT WE
REALLY WANT TO LIVE AMONG EACH
OTHER, THAT'S NOT WHAT'S
HAPPENING.
SO THERE'S A DISCONNECT THERE.
SO EITHER WE HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE
THAT WE'RE CLASSIST AND RACIST
AND THAT WE WANT TO LIVE
ALONGSIDE EACH OTHER AND
COMMODIFY BODIES AND COMMUNITIES
OR WE WANT TO DEVELOP A CITY FOR
EVERYONE WHERE WE ALL HAVE
POSSIBILITIES AND WHERE WE ARE
GOING TO HAVE MEANINGFUL
RELATIONSHIPS WITH PEOPLE ACROSS
CLASS, ACROSS RACE, ACROSS
SEXUAL ORIENTATION.

Steve says IN WHICH CASE,
MELANIE, WE DID SEE ON THAT
CHART, SINGLE DETACHED HOUSES
ARE 1.2 MILLION AVERAGE.
IT'S BEYOND THE MEANS OF JUST SO
MANY PEOPLE NOWADAYS.
CONDOS WERE AROUND 450,000 A
PIECE.
ARE MORE CONDOS A POTENTIAL
SOLUTION FOR THIS PROBLEM?

The caption changes to "The high price of housing. The condo life."

Melanie says I THINK MORE CONDOS AND MUCH
MORE ARE A SLEUTH HERE.
I THINK WHAT WE SEE IS
INTERESTING NOW.
IN FACT, THAT THE NUMBER OF
SITES LIKE THE SITES IN THE DOWN
TOWN CORE ARE ACTUALLY COMING
CLOSE TO FRUITION.
WE'RE SEEING AN UPTAKE ALONG THE
MAIN STREETS AND THE AVENUES.
OF MID-RISE TOWNHOUSE FORM.
THE BUILDING CODE HAS CHANGED...
IS IN THE PROCESS OF CHANGING TO
ALLOW STICK BUILT HOUSING.

Steve says WHAT'S STICK BUILT
HOUSE?

Melanie says WOOD FRAME HOUSING THAT CAN
GO NOW UP TO FIVE OR STICKS
STOREYS THAT IS YOUR TYPICAL
MID-RISE HEIGHT WHICH CAN
USUALLY TAKE THE FORM OF
TOWNHOUSES ON THE GROUND OR
STACKED TOWNHOUSES.
ONE ON TOP OF EACH OTHER.
AND YOU START SEEING SOME... NOT
ONLY INFILL PROJECTS OF A
DIFFERENT MAGNITUDE.
I RIDE MY BIKE ALONG DUNDAS WEST
TO GET DOWNTOWN TO WORK AND I
RIDE BY FOUR OR FIVE MID-RISE
PROJECTS WHICH ARE LITERALLY
COMING OUT OF THE TOWN.

Steve says YOU KNOW THE PROBLEM
WITH THOSE?
THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN BUNGALOWS
IN THAT AREA DON'T WANT THEM.
THEY WANT THEIR NEIGHBOURHOODS
TO STAY THE SAME.

Melanie says THAT WHOLE NIMBY KIND OF NOT
IN MY BACKYARD.

Jay says NOT IN MY BACKYARD WHAT IS
THAT ABOUT?

Melanie says GOING BACK TO CHANGE.
AND THE PERCEPTION OF DIFFERENT
PEOPLE.

Jay says RIGHT.

Melanie says RIGHT.

Steve says A LOT OF IT JUST
KEEPING IT THE WAY IT WAS,
RIGHT?
I HEAR THIS ALL THE TIME I MOVED
INTO THIS NEIGHBOURHOOD BECAUSE
IT WAS ALL BUNGALOWS AND NICE
AND SWEET AND NOT TOO MUCH
DENSITY AND THAT'S WHAT I WANT
TO KEEP.
EXCEPT, YOU KNOW, IT'S 2016 AND
WATCH GOT A HOUSING PROBLEM AND
YOU LIVE AT YONGE AND EGLINTON.
AND, YOU KNOW, 100,000 PEOPLE
ARE MOVING HERE EVERY YEAR SO
SOMETHING HAS TO GIVE, RIGHT.

Jay says AND A LOT OF THEM DON'T LOOK
LIKE YOU.
IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE
COME TO TERMS WITH THIS.
THAT PEOPLE... LIKE, AS A CITY,
WE LIVE ALONGSIDE EACH OTHER.
ACROSS DIVIDED LINES.
BUT WE'RE NOT TRULY LIVING WITH
EACH OTHER.
AND I THINK THAT'S SO CRITICALLY
IMPORTANT.
THE ISSUE IS ECONOMIC AS IT IS
ATTITUDINAL.

Steve says CAN WE ACKNOWLEDGE
THAT THERE IS SOME RACISM AT
PLAY HERE BUT CAN WE ALSO
ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THERE MAY ALSO
NOT BE THAT PEOPLE LIKE
BUNGALOWS AND...

Jay says I DON'T THINK IT'S SOLELY
RACISM. I THINK IT'S COMPLEX.

Melanie says AND THE HOUSING STOCK IN
WHATEVER WE PROVIDE IS ONLY ONE
PART OF THE SOLUTION, RIGHT?
SO YOU CAN PUT MIXED FORM OF
HOUSING IN A NEIGHBOURHOOD.
BUT WHAT BRINGS THAT FEELING OF
COHESION IS USUALLY CAN PEOPLE
WALK TO... IS THE PLACE SAFE.
IS THERE COMMON GROUND LIKE
PARKS.
IS EVERYBODY GETTING IN THEIR
CAR AND GOING OUT TO DO
SOMETHING ELSE?
BECAUSE THOSE ARE THE COMMON
GROUNDS WHERE PEOPLE CAN GET
TOGETHER, GET TO KNOW EACH
OTHER.
SHARE, YOU KNOW, STORIES OVER
WALKING THEIR DOG, THEIR
CHILDREN, SCHOOLS, COMMUNITY
AMENITIES.
HOW TO ACCESS RESOURCES AND SO
ON AND SO FORTH.
THIS HAS A PLAY BEYOND HOUSING
IN TERMS OF THE KIND OF
COMMUNITIES WE'RE BUILDING.

Steve says LET'S GO BEYOND WITH
THIS QUOTE HERE.
YOU KNOW JOHN LORINC FROM
SPACING MAGAZINE. HE HAS BEEN
ON THIS PROGRAM MANY TIMES.
HE WROTE NOT TO LONG AGO IN
SPACING TORONTO:

A slate appears with the caption "An expanded provincial presence. Given the craziness of the residential real estate market, the dearth of affordable (and decent) private rental, and the chronic shortages and financial problems associated with municipally-operated affordable housing programs, maybe we need to begin thinking seriously about significantly expanding the province’s presence in the housing space. John Lorinc, Spacing Toronto (September 14, 2016)."

Steve says OKAY.
BEN, GET US STARTED ON THIS.
SHOULD THE PROVINCE HAVE A
GREATER ROLE TO PLAY IN THE
HOUSING MARKET AS JOHN LORINC
SUGGESTS?

The caption changes to "The high price of housing. More regulation?"

Ben says I THINK THEY CERTAINLY CAN ON
AFFORDABLE HOUSING SPACE.
AS I MENTIONED EARLIER THERE IS
ONLY SO LOW WE CAN GET HOUSING
BASED OFF THE INPUT COST THAT IS
WE HAVE.
WE NEED TO SERVICE THOSE PEOPLE.
AND I THINK THAT SHOULD BE ONE
OF THE NUMBER ONE GOALS OF OUR
GOVERNMENT IS BECAUSE HOUSING IS
OUR NUMBER ONE COST THAT YOU
HAVE, IF YOU SPEND LESSON
HOUSING YOU CAN SPEND MORE ON
FOOD.
YOU CAN SEND MORE ON ALL THESE
OTHER THINGS THAT YOU NEED TO
HELP BOOST THE ECONOMY.
AND IN TERMS OF BUILDING MORE,
YOU KNOW, THERE ARE TWO WAYS TO
HELP A SUPPLY SHORTAGE, RIGHT?
YOU EITHER BRING DOWN DEMAND OR
INCREASE SUPPLY.
BUT IF YOU CAN INCREASE SUPPLY
AT LEAST YOU ARE CREATING
CONSTRUCTION JOBS AND CONSULTING
JOBS AND ANAHEIM THESE OTHER
SPINOFF BENEFITS THAT BUILDING
NEW HOUSING PROVIDES AND I THINK
THAT'S CERTAINLY SOMETHING THEY
SHOULD PUSH NOT ONLY MARKET RATE
HOUSING BUT ANY KIND OF SOCIAL
OR AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

Melanie says I WOULD ARGUE THAT THERE IS
ALSO A PROVINCIAL ROLE.
THIS IS ALSO AN ECONOMIC
COMPETITIVENESS ISSUE.
PEOPLE... WE CAN'T DRAW THE
TALENT POOL IN OR THE DIVERSITY
ARRANGEMENT SKIMS IN THE LABOUR
FORCE THAT CAN AFFORD TO LIVE
HERE.
WE'RE GOING TO START TO SLOW
DOWN ON THAT ABILITY TO GROW OUR
ECONOMICALLY.
SO I WOULD ARGUE FROM A
PROVINCIAL PERSPECTIVE THERE IS
A HOUSING AND JURISDICTION FOR
HOUSING FITS WITH THE PROVINCE
EVEN THOUGH THEY'VE TRIED TO DO
THEIR BEST TO KIND OF DOWNLOAD
THAT TO THE CITY.
BUT ALSO THERE'S AN ECONOMIC
ARGUMENT.
WHAT JAY IS POINTING OUT IS
THERE IS A SOCIAL COMMUNITY...
THE PEOPLE ARGUMENT HERE.

Ben says PEOPLE ARE DEFINITELY LEAVING
CITIES LIKE SAN FRANCISCO AND
VANCOUVER BECAUSE THEY CAN WORK
IN THESE 18-HOUR CITIES THAT ARE
MUCH LESS AFFORDABLE AND STILL
GET A HIGH INCOME.
SO WE DON'T WANT TO LOSE PEOPLE
TO A DENVER OR AN AUSTIN OR A
TOP TALENT.
WE WANT TO KEEP THEM HERE IN
TORONTO BECAUSE THEY CAN AFFORD
TO LIVE HERE SO LET'S HELP THEM
AFFORD TO LIVE HERE.

The caption changes to "Ben Myer @benmyers29."

Steve says LET'S FIND OUT WHAT
THAT MEANS.
JAY, IF THERE WERE A GREATER
ROLE FOR THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO
TO PLAY IN ACHIEVING SOME OF THE
GOALS YOU'VE SET OUT, WHAT MIGHT
THAT BE?

Jay says I THINK I AM GOING TO GO BACK
TO WHAT WAS MENTIONED ABOUT
HAVING THE NATIONAL HOUSING
STRATEGY.
I REALLY BELIEVE THAT IT STARTS
THERE.

Steve says WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

Jay says SO IT'S SETTING OUT LIKE AN
IMPERATIVE AND SOME GUIDELINES
WHICH PROVINCES COULD THEN AMEND
TO THEIR PARTICULAR SITUATION.
AND MUNICIPALITIES AS WELL.
AND IT'S ALSO CREATING MORE
FLEXIBLE FUNDING FORMULAE FOR
HOUSING ALSO.
SO I THINK WE NEED THAT.
WE NEED AN ARTICULATION COMING
FROM THE TOP THAT COULD THEN,
AGAIN, BE IMPLEMENTED IN
COMMUNITY ON THE LOCAL LEVEL.
SO I THINK WE NEED THAT.
AND I ALSO THINK THAT... AND I
DEFINITELY THINK THAT
PROVINCIALLY THERE SHOULD BE
MORE OF AN ALLOCATION OF
RESOURCES FOR SURE.
AND I ALSO THINK THAT... I'M
GOING TO GO BACK TO... OFTEN
TIMES I THINK WHEN WE GET STUCK
WE GO TO GOVERNMENT.
THAT GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO TAKE
MORE AFTER ROLE.
AND I THINK THAT GIVEN THE WORK
THAT I DO IN TERMS OF PLACE
MAKING, I THINK THAT WE NEED TO
FIGURE OUT WHAT ALL OF OUR ROLES
ARE.
AND THEN HOW WE CAN MOBILIZE TO
GET GOVERNMENT TO DO WHAT IT'S
SUPPOSED TO DO WHICH IS WORK FOR
US.

Steve says HMM.
OKAY.
ONE OF THE IDEAS THEY HAD IN
BRITISH COLUMBIA WAS A... WHAT
WAS A 15 percent TAX ON OFF SHORE
PURCHASES OF REAL ESTATE IN THE
CITY. WHAT DO YOU THINK OF
THAT IDEA FOR ONTARIO?

Ben says I DON'T SUPPORT IT,
OBVIOUSLY.
I MEAN, IF WE DID HAVE TO DO
SOMETHING LIKE THAT, I WOULD SAY
ONLY ON LOW RISE HOUSING, RESALE
HOUSING.
A LOT OF THE FOREIGN BUYERS
ACTUALLY SUPPORT THE DEVELOPMENT
OF NEW CONDOMINIUMS THEY BUY IN
PRECONSTRUCTION ALLOW THEM TO
GET BUILT AND RENT THE UNITS OUT
SO PROVIDING THAT NEEDED RENTAL
HOUSING SUPPLY.
IF WE'RE PUSHING THEM BACK OR
SAYING WE'RE NOT FRIENDLY TO
IMMIGRANTS THEN THAT'S AN ISSUE
GOING FORWARD.
A LOT OF PEOPLE... A LOT OF
FOREIGN BUYER THAT IS BUY
HOUSING IT'S BECAUSE THEY WANT
TO MOVE HERE.
RIGHT?
IT'S THE WE'RE JUST BRINGING
FORWARD DEMAND.

Steve says I THINK THE B.C. ISSUE
WAS THEY WEREN'T ACTUALLY BUYING
TO MOVE HERE THEY WERE BUYING TO
BE LANDLORDS AND BRITISH
COLUMBIANS FELT UPSET ABOUT THE
FACT THAT THEIR LAND WAS BEING
OWNED BY PEOPLE WHO HAD NO
INTENTION OF MOVING HERE.

Ben says AGAIN, WE DON'T HAVE THE
NUMBERS TO BREAK DOWN WHERE THAT
SITS.
I THINK THE PURE INVESTOR IS
ACTUALLY FAIRLY SMALL WHEN YOU
LOOK AT STUDIES IN THE NATIONAL
ASSOCIATION OF REALTORS DID A
STUDY IN THE UNITED STATES THAT
SHOWED THE PURE INVESTOR, PURE
FOREIGN INVESTOR IS JUST BUYING
TO EITHER HOLD THIS AS VACANT OR
RENT IT OUT AS ACTUALLY FAIRLY
SMALL.
THEY WANTED TO EVENTUALLY MOVE
THERE OR HAD TIES HERE OF THEIR
SON IS IN SCHOOL OR THEIR
RELATIVE OR EVEN IN SOME
INSTANCES THEIR WIFE IS ALREADY
LIVING IN THAT COUNTRY.
AND THE UNIT'S BEEN BOUGHT IN
THEIR NAME.
SO I DON'T THINK IT'S A GOOD
IDEA.
IT'S MORE ABOUT FOREIGN CAPITAL
IN SOME INSTANCES NOT ACTUALLY
THE FOREIGN BUYERS.

Steve says MELANIE HOW ABOUT THAT
15 percent TAX?
IT'S HAPPENING IN B.C. SHOULD WE
DO IT IN ONTARIO?

Melanie says I THINK WE SHOULD FOCUS MORE
ON PARTNERSHIPS.
AS BEN HAS MENTIONED
EXCLUSIONARY DISOWNING AND OTHER
TOOLS.
LOOKS TO FIND PARTNERSHIPS
WITH DEVELOPERS AS THEY'RE
COMING FORWARD TO A CITY
OBJECTIVE.
I THINK THERE ARE WAYS TO PUSH
THAT.

Steve says WHAT ABOUT MORE
APARTMENTS?
MORE RENTALS.

Melanie says WE SHE THAT.
THE MARKET HAS RESPONDED TO
THAT.
THERE ARE FOR DECADES HAVE BEEN
RENTAL HOUSING PROTECTION
POLICIES IN PLACE TO MAKE SURE
THAT THE RENTS DON'T RISE TOO
FAST AND THAT WE KEEP THAT
STOCK.
BUT WHAT WE SEE IN THE LAST FIVE
YEARS IS ALMOST EVERY PROJECT WE
SEE COMING FORWARD IN THE CORE
OF THE CITY HAS AN AFFORDABLE...
HAS A RENTAL COMPONENT SOME OF
WHICH IS AFFORDABLE.
SOMETIMES THAT'S THE WAY THE
DEVELOPERS ARE ACTUALLY
ADDRESSING AFFORDABLE SIDE.
BUT I THINK THE BROADENING OF
THE HOUSE FORM AND THE TENURE.
WHETHER YOU'RE OWNING OR
RENTING.
OR YOU'RE IN A COOPERATIVE
CIRCUMSTANCE.
ALL OF THOSE ARE SOLUTIONS THAT
WE NEED TO BROADEN THE
OPPORTUNITY TO KIND OF BRING
FORWARD.

Steve says SHANE YOU POINTED OUT
YOU LIVE PART OF YOUR LIFE IN
SOCIAL HOUSING.
FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE THERE'S A
STIGMA AROUND LIVING IN SOCIAL
HOUSING.
NOT EVERYBODY BUT SOME PEOPLE.
AND SOME OF THE SOCIAL HOUSING
GOING UP TODAY IS ACTUALLY SO
BEAUTIFUL THAT YOU DON'T EVEN
KNOW THAT IT'S, QUOTE, UNQUOTE,
"SOCIAL HOUSING."
BUT IF THERE IS A STIGMA AROUND
IT HOW DO YOU GET RID OF THAT?

Jay says I THINK THAT FIRSTLY YOU
ADDRESS THE REPAIR BACKLOG.
AS A START.
AND I ALSO THINK THAT MIXED
DEVELOPMENT IS A REALLY... I
THINK THAT'S THE WAY FORWARD.
AND I ALSO THINK IT'S REALLY
COMPLICATED.
BECAUSE NOW YOU HAVE
INTERGENERATIONAL POVERTY AND
INTERGENERATIONAL ISOLATION.
SO I THINK IT WILL TAKE A REALLY
LONG TIME TO UNDO THAT.

Steve says GOT TO HAVE UPWARD
MOBILITY OR THERE'S NO HOPE.
IS THAT THE IDEA?

Jay says ABSOLUTELY.
LATERAL MOBILITY AS WELL.
PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN SOCIAL
HOUSING CAN'T EVEN LIKE GET
FIRST AND LAST TOGETHER TO MOVE
DOWN THE STREET SOMEWHERE.
SO I THINK THAT'S REALLY
IMPORTANT.
BUT I THINK THAT AS A MODEL IT'S
A FOG MODEL.
I THINK WE'VE ALL COME TO TERMS
WITH THAT.
HAVING A CONCENTRATION OF POOR
PEOPLE THAT WASN'T MAYBE THE
BEST IDEA.
SO I THINK WE'VE COME TO TERMS
WITH THAT.
I THINK THE FUTURE IS REALLY
ABOUT, AGAIN, LIVING WITH EACH
OTHER.
AND DEVELOPING MIXED INCOME
HOUSING.

Steve says DO YOU LIKE WHAT
THEY'VE DONE WITH REGENT PARK?

Jay says UM, I WOULD HAVE TO SAY I DO.
I DO.
I THINK THAT IT'S TOO EARLY TO
WEIGH IN.
I THINK THAT THE TELLING FACT
WILL BE WHETHER OR NOT PEOPLE
WHO... THE LONGER STANDING
TENANTS AND THE NEW TENANTS
ACTUALLY SHARE SPACE TOGETHER IN
A MEANINGFUL WAY.
SO IT'S BEAUTIFULLY DESIGNED.
BUT I THINK THAT THE METRIC FOR
GREAT DESIGN IS GREAT COMMUNITY
COHESION.
AND SO THAT'S WHAT I AM LOOKING
FOR IN THE NEXT DECADE.

The caption changes to "The high price of housing. A changing future."

Steve says MELANIE I HAVE A
MINUTE LEFT HERE.
DO I REMEMBER COVERING TWEENS
PARK TEN YEARS AGO AND THEN
PREMIER DAVID PETERSON SAYING
THE SKY ROCKET HOUSING PRICES IN
TORONTO WERE A SWEET HEADACHE.
ON THE ONE HAND IT DOES INDICATE
A LOT OF PEOPLE WANT TO COME
HERE ON THE OTHER HAND IT'S HARD
FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE TO BREAK IN.
DO WE HAVE TO MAKE OUR PEACE
WITH THIS THAT THIS IS THE WAY
IT'S GOING TO BE AND THAT'S
LIFE?

Melanie says I DON'T THINK WE'RE GOING TO
CHANGE THE TREND.
IT IS A POSITIVE TREND.
WE NEED A MUCH MORE
SOPHISTICATED PALATE OF WAYS TO
DEAL WITH THIS.
AND THINKING OF THE WAYS OF
DEALING WITH THIS REGENT PARK
HAD SPECTACULAR COMMUNITY
AMENITIES WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT
THE DANIEL SLIDE BOX AND ALL THE
REST.
THAT IS A GOOD MODEL.
I THINK WE NEED TO LOOK AND PUSH
ALL OUR PARTNERS...

Steve says I THINK IT'S THE PAINT
BOX.

Melanie says YOU'RE RIGHT.

Steve says BUT I KNEW WHAT YOU
MEANT.

Melanie says THEN BEING APPLIED AT THE
COMMUNITY LEVEL AND I THINK
THAT'S INTERESTING.
I THINK IT'S A SIGNIFICANT
PROBLEM A REAL IMPERATIVE BUT I
WOULDN'T WANT TO BE GOING
BACKWARDS.
I WOULDN'T WANT TO BE DOING WHAT
I SEE IN SOME OF THE AMERICAN
CITIES WHETHER PEOPLE WORK TO
STRUGGLE TO GET PEOPLE TO LIVE
DOWNTOWN.

Steve says ON THAT I SUSPECT
THERE IS CONSENSUS.
NOBODY WANTS TO BE... SHOULD I
NAME NAMES HERE?
NOBODY WANTS DETROIT OR
CLEVELAND NORTH OF THE 49th
PARALLEL.
THANKS EVERYBODY FOR THIS
DISCUSSION TONIGHT.
JAY PITTER, MELANIE HARE AND BEN
MEYERS FROM FORTRESS REAL ESTATE
DEVELOPMENTS. THANKS EVERYBODY.

All say THANK YOU.

The caption changes to "The high price of housing. Producer: Katie O’Connor @KA_OConnor."

Watch: The High Price of Housing