Transcript: The Agenda's Week in Review | Oct 28, 2016

Steve stands in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and striped red and pink tie.

A wall screen behind him reads "The week in review."

Steve says "THE AGENDA" THIS WEEK
REFLECTED ON CANADA'S REFUGEE
SPONSORSHIP PROGRAM; DEBATED HOW
FAR LAWS ABOUT LANGUAGE SHOULD
GO; AND CONSIDERED THE STATE OF
SEXUAL ASSAULT AND THE COURTS.
THE WEEK IN REVIEW BEGINS BY
LOOKING AT INVASIVE SPECIES IN
THE GREAT LAKES ECOSYSTEM.

Music plays as an animated slate reads "The week in review."

Steve sits with guests in the studio.
A caption on screen reads "Invaders of the Great Lakes. Phragmites."

Steve says IF YOU THOUGHT THAT
LOOKED STRANGE, I HAVE MORE
STRANGE VIDEO FOR YOU.
READY?
SHELDON, LET'S ROLL THIS.
WANT TO SEE WHAT ASIAN CARP LOOK LIKE?

A short clip plays showing a boat traveling on a lake. Dozens of silver fish leap out of the water in all directions.

Steve says HOLY COW.
BECKY, WHAT ARE WE LOOKING AT
HERE?

Becky is in her thirties, with long straight brown hair. She's wearing a black blazer and a silver stone necklace.

The caption changes to "Asian carp."

Becky says SILVER AND BIGHEAD CARP,
PROBABLY MOSTLY SILVER CARP,
THIS IS ONE OF THE ASIAN CARP
SPECIES AND THEY'RE BEING
STARTLED BY THE BOAT AND
PROBABLY SHOCKED A LITTLE BY THE
ELECTRO FISHING GEAR THERE AND
THEY LEAP OUT OF THE WATER.

Steve says THAT IS ASTONISHING.

Becky says IT IS.

Steve says ANY IDEA WHAT BODY
OF WATER WE WERE LOOKING AT
THERE?

Becky says I DON'T KNOW BUT I'M GOING TO
GUESS IT'S ALONG THE MISSISSIPPI
RIVER BASIN SOMEWHERE.

Steve says IN THE STATES?

Becky says OH, YES.
IT WOULDN'T BE CANADIAN WATERS.

Steve says WE'RE NOT THAT BAD
YET.

Becky says WELL, WE'RE NOT EVEN CLOSE TO
THAT YET, WHICH IS GREAT NEWS.
WE DO SEE THINGS LIKE THAT VIDEO
AND... BUT IT REALLY MAKES US
NOT WANT TO SEE THESE IN CANADA.

Steve says HAVE YOU FOUND ANY
OF THESE IN CANADIAN WATER YET?

The caption changes to "Becky Cudmore. Fisheries and Oceans Canada."

Becky says WE HAVE FOUND A SPECIES OF
ASIAN CARP IN CANADIAN WATERS,
GRASS CARP.
WE HAVE A PROGRAM WITH FISHERIES
AND OCEANS CANADA SINCE 2012
WHERE WE ARE BEING VERY
PROACTIVE WITH INVASIVE SPECIES,
LESSONS LEARNED FROM IT
PHRAGMITES AND SEA LAMPREY THAT
HAVE BEEN ESTABLISHED.
THE IDEA WITH THE ASIAN CARP
PROGRAM IS TO BE MORE PROACTIVE
AND PREVENT THEIR ARRIVAL IN THE
FIRST PLACE.
AS JANICE SAID, IT'S TOUGH TO
DEAL WITH AN INVASIVE SPECIES
ONCE IT'S ESTABLISHED IN THE
SYSTEM, SO THE GOAL IS TO
ACTIVELY SEEK OUT ASIAN CARP IN
OUR WATERS AND GET THEM OUT
IMMEDIATELY.

Steve says SHELDON, CAN YOU
ROLL THAT VIDEO ONE MORE TIME
BECAUSE I WANT YOU TO TALK ABOUT
WHETHER YOU'VE HAD UP CLOSE AND
PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH THESE
KIND OF THINGS?

The clip rolls again.

The caption changes to "Becky Cudmore, @DFO_Central"

Becky says I HAVE, ACTUALLY.
DR. MANDRAK AND I WERE INVITED
DOWN AS PART OF AN INTERNATIONAL
CONTINGENCY TO PEORIA, ILLINOIS,
AND WE WERE BROUGHT ON A BOAT TO
SEE IT FIRSTHAND.
BEFORE WE HAD SEEN THIS ON VIDEO
AND YOU WATCH IT AND IT'S PRETTY
INCREDIBLE.
TO BE ON THE BOAT FOR THOSE FISH
COMING AT MY HEAD AND THANKS TO
NICK HE ACTUALLY PUNCHED ONE OUT
OF THE AIR BEFORE IT HIT ME IN
THE HEAD.

Steve says NICK, YOU'RE A HERO.

Becky says I WILL BE FOREVER GRATEFUL.
HOWEVER, HE DIDN'T GET THE ONE
THAT HIT ME IN THE SHIN.
ALL I CAN SAY IS EXTREMELY
UNPLEASANT.
MY LEG WAS SORE FOR DAYS.

Steve says JUST FROM THE
IMPACT...

Becky says JUST FROM THE IMPACT OF THAT
FISH.
YOU'RE ON A MOVING BOAT GOING AT
A GOOD SPEED, THE FISH IS, YOU
KNOW, 15-POUND FISH AND IT HITS
YOU.
IT'S VERY UNPLEASANT AND YOU CAN
IMAGINE... WHAT WE COULD IMAGINE
IS, IF THIS WAS CANADIAN WATERS,
HOW WOULD THIS IMPACT BOATING,
ANGLING, WATERSKIING, KAYAKING,
CANOEING...

Steve says NOT TO MENTION OTHER
WILDLIFE IN THE WATER.

Becky says EXACTLY.
SO IT WAS... IT WAS A GREAT
FIELD TRIP IN THE SENSE THAT IT
REALLY SPURRED BOTH OF US, I
THINK, TO SAY WE DON'T WANT
THESE IN CANADA.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: @theagenda, TVO.org, YouTube, Facebook, Instagram."

Steve says RIGHT.
HOW BIG CAN THEY GET?

Nick is in his forties, with wavy brown hair and a goatee. He's wearing glasses, a gray suit, and a blue shirt.

He says THEY CAN GET TO BE ABOUT
40 KILOGRAMS.
THE AVERAGE SIZE IN THE U.S. IS
PROBABLY ABOUT 10 KILOGRAMS, BUT
THESE ARE MASSIVE FISHES, AND
THE ONE THING IS, THEY GROW VERY
QUICKLY.
SO WITHIN THEIR FIRST YEAR OF
LIFE...

A picture pops up of two women and two men, all between 20 and 25 years old, holding four massive fishes.

Steve says LOOK AT THIS.
HOW BIG ARE THOSE?

Nick says THOSE ARE ABOUT 20 KILOGRAMS.

Steve says OKAY.
FOR IMPERIAL PEOPLE, WHAT DOES
THAT MEAN?

Nick says ABOUT 40 POUNDS.

Steve says 40 POUNDS, OKAY.

Nick says THOSE ARE GRASS CARP.
SO THE SILVER CARP, BIGHEAD
CARP, AND GRASS CARP ALL GROW TO
THAT SIZE.

Steve says WHEN DID YOU GUYS
FIND OUT WHEN THE ASIAN CARP
FIRST ARRIVED IN NORTH AMERICA?

The caption changes to "Nick Mandrak. University of Toronto."

Nick says IT ARRIVED IN THE 1960s AS
A RESULT OF BRINGING THE VARIOUS
SPECIES OVER TO HELP OUT IN AQUA
CULTURE INDUSTRIES IN THE U.S.
AND NOT TO BE RAISED AS A FOOD
FISH BUT RATHER TO CONTROL PESTS
THAT WERE IN, SAY, THE CHANNEL
CATFISH AQUACULTURE INDUSTRY.
INTERESTING THING ABOUT THE
SPECIES, THEY HAVE VERY SPECIFIC
PREY ITEMS.
SO THE GRASS CARP OBVIOUSLY
FEEDS ON WETLAND PLANTS.
THE SILVER CARP FEEDS ON
MICROSCOPIC PLANTS, LIKE ALGAE.
AND THE BIGHEAD CARP FEEDS ON
MICROSCOPIC ANIMALS.
THE BLACK CARP, A FOURTH
SPECIES, THAT WE REALLY HAVEN'T
TALKED ABOUT YET AND IS NOT AS
FAR UP THE MISSISSIPPI AS THE
OTHER THREE SPECIES IS A SNAIL
EATER.
IT WAS BROUGHT IN TO CONTROL
SNAILS IN AQUACULTURE FACILITIES
IN THE U.S.

Steve says WE ACTUALLY
INTRODUCED THESE SPECIES TO OUR
WATER SYSTEMS?

Nick says WE BROUGHT THEM OVER
DELIBERATELY.
WE PUT THEM IN CONTAINED
FACILITIES THAT ONCE THEY WERE
FLOODED OVER, THE FISHES WERE
RELEASED INTO THE WILD.

Steve says THAT SEEMS IN
HINDSIGHT LIKE A REALLY DUMB
THING TO HAVE DONE?

Nick says YES.
WE'VE DONE IT MANY TIMES AND WE
HAVE YET TO LEARN OUR LESSON.

Steve says HOW MANY FERTILE
ONES DOES IT TAKE TO POPULATE A
LAKE IN YOUR VIEW, BECKY?

Becky says WE'VE DONE MODELLING LOOKING
AT THE BIOLOGICAL AND ECOLOGICAL
CHARACTERISTICS OF BIGHEAD AND
SILVER CARP, AND THE WORK
SUGGESTS THAT IT WOULD TAKE AS
MANY AS TEN INDIVIDUALS, TEN
FEMALES AND A SIMILAR NUMBER OF
MALES, TO BE IN ONE AREA AT ONE
TIME TO HAVE A GREATER THAN
50 PERCENT CHANCE AT
ESTABLISHING A POPULATION.
SO A LOT FEWER THAN ONE WOULD
THINK.
AND UNFORTUNATELY, THE BIOLOGY
OF THESE ASIAN CARP SPECIES,
SIMILAR TO SALMON, IS THAT THEY
LIKE TO RUN UP A RIVER.
SO THE QUEUE WOULD ALLOW FOR ANY
ASIAN CARP IN THE AREA TO GO UP
RIVER.
NOT GOOD NEWS.
THE IDEA IS TO MAKE SURE WE
DON'T GET THAT MANY IN THE FIRST
PLACE.

Steve says I CAN'T REMEMBER,
ONE OF YOU ADDRESSED THIS, BUT
IS THERE A NATURAL PREDATOR OF
THIS SPECIES OUT THERE?

The caption changes to "For more on this story visit: tvo.org/theagenda"

Nick says THERE ISN'T.
THE ISSUE WITH THESE ASIAN CARPS
IS THAT THEY GROW QUITE QUICKLY,
SO THEY'LL GROW TO ABOUT A FOOT
LONG IN THEIR FIRST YEAR OF
LIFE, WHICH MEANS THEY QUICKLY
OUTGROW THE MOUTH SIZE OF ANY
POTENTIAL PREDATOR.

Now music plays as an animated slate reads "The week in review."

Steve sits with different guests.
A caption on screen reads "Rethinking private refugee sponsorship. Exporting the Canadian System."

Steve says YOU KNOW WE GET A
LOT OF QUESTIONS HERE ALL THE
TIME FROM MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC.
SOME OF THE BASIC NUTS AND BOLTS
OF THIS THING.
LET ME GO TO YOU FIRST ON THIS.
ONE A REFUGEE IS APPROVED TO
COME TO CANADA, WHO PAYS FOR THE
COSTS OF RESETTLING THEM HERE?
TRAVEL EXPENSES; LET'S START
WITH THAT.

The caption changes to "Janet Dench. Canadian Council for Refugees."
Then, it changes again to "Travel expenses."

Janet is in her fifties, with shoulder-length wavy gray hair. She's wearing glasses, a blue zip-up sweater, and a black shirt.

She says YES.
WELL, THE COST OF THE MEDICAL
EXAM THAT THEY NEED TO DO TO
SATISFY CANADA THAT THEIR HEALTH
IS OKAY AS WELL AS THEIR
TRANSPORTATION TO CANADA HAS TO
BE PAID FOR BY THE REFUGEE, AND
OF COURSE THEY DON'T GENERALLY
HAVE THE MONEY TO PAY IT UP
FRONT, SO WHAT THEY DO IS THEY
SIGN AN AGREEMENT, OFTEN NOT
REALLY KNOWING WHAT THEY'RE
DOING, BUT BEFORE THEY LEAVE, TO
SAY THAT THEY WILL PAY THE
GOVERNMENT BACK AFTER THEY
ARRIVE.
AND SO SHORTLY AFTER THEY
ARRIVE, THEY RECEIVE SOMETHING
IN THE MAIL SAYING THAT THIS IS
HOW MUCH YOU NEED TO PAY THE
GOVERNMENT BACK ON A MONTHLY
BASIS.
IT'S A LIMIT OF 10,000 dollars PER FAMILY.
IT'S A HUGE BURDEN FOR PEOPLE
WHO START OFF, AND WE HEARD
ABOUT, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THE
SITUATIONS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE IN
VERY VULNERABLE SITUATIONS.
YOU CAN BARELY SURVIVE.
YOU'RE GETTING MINIMUM AMOUNT OF
INCOME, SOCIAL ASSISTANCE RATES
OR MAYBE YOU'VE GOT A MINIMUM
WAGE JOB, AND YET YOU'VE GOT TO
BE PAYING THIS MONTHLY PAYMENT
TO THE GOVERNMENT, WHICH IS THE
REPAYMENT PLUS INTEREST FOR THE
TRANSPORTATION COSTS.
THAT'S A BIG... IT HAS A BIG
IMPACT ON PEOPLE PSYCHOLOGICALLY
AND JUST IN THEIR CHOICES OF HOW
THEY TRY TO SURVIVE.

The caption changes to "Ratna Omidvar. Independent Senator."

Ratna is in her fifties, with chin-length straight salt and pepper hair. She's wearing a red blazer and silver hoop earrings.

She says WE SHOULD ADD THAT THE
TRANSPORTATION COSTS AND THE
MEDICAL EXAM COSTS FOR SYRIAN
REFUGEES HAVE BEEN WAIVED BY THE
GOVERNMENT.

Janet says FOR SOME OF THEM.
THERE ARE SOME SYRIANS WHO HAVE
NOT HAD IT COVERED.

Ratna says IT DEPENDS FROM WHICH
JURISDICTION.
BUT THE POINT IS THAT I'M FULLY
IN FAVOUR OF RECOVERY OF FEES
AND USER FEES.
WE DO THAT IN CITIZENSHIP.
WE CHARGE A FEE FOR WHEN YOU
WANT TO BECOME A CITIZEN.
THE FEE IS QUITE HIGH IN THE
MEANTIME BECAUSE IT'S FULL COST
RECOVERY.
MAYBE THAT'S THE WAY IT SHOULD
BE.
BUT FOR REFUGEES, I CANNOT
UNDERSTAND THAT WE ARE BEING
COMPASSIONATE ON THE ONE HAND
AND BEING TRANSACTIONAL ON THE
OTHER.
I FIND THOSE TWO SORT OF IDEAS
CONTRADICTORY.
I WOULD PREFER US TO BE FULLY
GENEROUS TO REFUGEES.

Steve says SO WAIVE THAT FEE.

Ratna says WAIVE THAT FEE.
LEAVE IT UP TO THEM ONCE THEY'VE
SETTLED AND ASK THEM, WHEN DO
YOU THINK YOU ARE READY TO GIVE
BACK SOMETHING?
I KNOW, AND WE ALL KNOW HERE,
HOW DIFFICULT IT IS FOR REFUGEES
TO FIND WORK, TO INTEGRATE INTO
THE COMMUNITY, TO HAVE THIS
THREAT OF REPAYMENT HANGING OVER
YOUR HEAD AND IN MANY
JURISDICTIONS... FOR MANY
COUNTRIES HAVING A LOW AND BEING
INDEBTED, IT'S A VERY, VERY
DIFFICULT THING TO COPE WITH.
SO I WOULD SAY, LET'S FIND MONEY
ELSEWHERE, MAYBE ELSEWHERE EVEN
IN THE IMMIGRATION SYSTEM.
THERE ARE IMMIGRANTS WHO CAN'T
AFFORD TO PAY FOR WHAT THEY GET,
BUT LET'S BE FULLY COMPASSIONATE
FOR REFUGEES.

Steve says Janet, WHAT HAPPENS
IF THEY CAN'T PAY THE MONEY BACK?

Janet says THEY WILL OFTEN BE HARASSED
BY COLLECTION OFFICERS WHO TRY
TO GET THE MONEY OFF THEM,
EVENTUALLY, IN SOME CASES, OF
COURSE, IT'S DECLARED
NON-PAYABLE.
BUT IT ALSO HAVE IMPACTS, FOR
EXAMPLE, IF YOU WANT TO SPONSOR
ANOTHER FAMILY MEMBER AND YOU
HAVEN'T FINISHED... YOU'RE
BEHIND ON YOUR PAYMENTS THERE,
YOU WON'T BE ABLE TO DO THAT.
SO IT CAN HAVE CONSEQUENCES FOR
PEOPLE IF THEY DON'T MANAGE TO
PAY UP.

Steve says ELLEN, SHOULD WE
HAVE A BLANKET WAIVING OF ANY
FEE FOR REFUGEES COMING INTO
THIS COUNTRY?

The caption changes to "Ellen Woolaver. Christie Refugee Welcome Centre."

Ellen is in her sixties, with straight long gray hair tied back. She's wearing a cream sweater over a pink shirt.

She says CERTAINLY I THINK THE MEDICAL
AND THE TRANSPORTATION FEES
SHOULD BE WAIVED.
IT'S JUST SO COUNTERPRODUCTIVE.
THEY'RE WORKING SO HARD TO
SETTLE AND WE HAVE SETTLEMENT
AGENCIES TO HELP PEOPLE
INTEGRATE.
IT MAKES NO SENSE TO ARRIVE HERE
WITH A BILL.

Ratna says IF IT BECOMES A REAL SORT OF
STUMBLING BLOCK, MAYBE WE ASK
PRIVATE SPONSORS.

Steve says TO PICK UP SOME.

Ratna says TO PICK UP SOME.
I CERTAINLY KNOW FROM MANY
PRIVATE SPONSORS I HANG OUT
WITH, THAT THEY WOULD BE OPEN TO
DOING THAT.
NOT ALL, BUT SOME.

Steve says I WAS GOING TO SAY,
THEY'RE ALREADY PICKING UP A LOT
OF FEES, RIGHT?
RENTING APARTMENTS, OTHER
SETTLEMENT ORIENTED COSTS.

Ratna says AND YOU SEE ME SMILING.

Steve says I SEE YOU SMILING.
WOULD THEY BE UP FOR 10,000 dollars IN MORE COSTS IN HEALTH AND TRAVEL
EXPENSES?

The caption changes to "Ratna Omidvar, @ratnaomi"

Ratna says IT DEPENDS.
IT'S NOT A BAD IDEA TO ASK.

Steve says IF YOU DON'T ASK,
YOU DON'T GET, IS WHAT THEY SAY.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: @theagenda, TVO.org, YouTube, Facebook, Instagram."

Then, it changes again to "For more on this story visit: tvo.org/theagenda"

Janet says SOME PRIVATE SPONSORS DO
ALREADY PAY THAT BECAUSE IT'S SO
TERRIBLE FOR THEM TO WATCH THE
PEOPLE THEY'RE SPONSORING BREAK
DOWN ON THE BURDEN OF THIS.
BUT IT'S ALSO... WE NEED TO
REMEMBER THERE ARE GOVERNMENT
ASSISTED REFUGEES WHO DON'T HAVE
A PRIVATE SPONSOR, SO OFTEN THEY
ARE AMONG THE MOST VULNERABLE,
SO IT IS PARTICULARLY HARSH FOR
THEM TO BE FACING THAT BURDEN.
I SHOULD MENTION THAT THE
GOVERNMENT HAS ALREADY COMMITTED
TO PAY THE MEDICAL STARTING NEXT
APRIL, THE MIDDLE EXAM, BUT
THAT'S A SMALLER PART OF THE
AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT PEOPLE HAVE
TO PAY SO IT'S NOT A MAJOR
SOLUTION.

Steve says GOTCHA.

Now music plays as an animated slate reads "The week in review."

A caption reads "Genders, rights, and freedom of speech. Law against mis(pronoun)ciation."

Steve says DISCRIMINATION, THE
HUMAN RIGHTS CODE SAYS, HAPPENS...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "It's a matter of rights." The quote reads "Discrimination happens when a person experiences negative treatment or impact, intentional or not, because of their gender identity or gender expression. It can be direct and obvious or subtle and hidden, but harmful just the same. It can also happen on a bigger systemic level such as organizational rules or policies that look neutral but end up excluding trans people.
Organizations are liable for any discrimination and harassment that happens. They are also liable for not accommodating a trans person's needs unless it would cause undue hardship."
Quoted from the Ontario Human Rights Code. January 31, 2014.

Steve says AGAIN, KYLE, I'LL
GET YOU TO FOLLOW UP ON THAT,
INASMUCH AS, IF A TRANS PERSON
OR SOMEBODY WHOSE GENDER
IDENTITY WAS MORE, SHALL WE SAY,
COMPLICATED THAN THE MALE-FEMALE
THAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT SO
FAR, AND THE PRONOUN USED TO
DESCRIBE THAT PERSON WERE NOT
TRADITIONAL, WOULD THE PERSON
HAVE A CASE BEFORE THE HUMAN
RIGHTS COMMISSION?

The caption changes to "Kyle Kirkup. University of Ottawa."

Kyle is in his thirties, with short wavy brown hair and a trimmed beard. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and gray tie.

He says SO WE HAVEN'T SEEN CASES ON
THAT AT THIS POINT, BUT I WOULD
SAY ABSOLUTELY, AS A GENERAL
RULE, THAT YOU SHOULD BE
THINKING ABOUT IN TERMS OF
EMPLOYMENT SETTINGS, ABSOLUTELY
RESPECTING A TRANS PERSON'S
PRONOUN CHOICE IS REALLY
FUNDAMENTAL.
AND I CAN ALSO SAY THAT IN LOTS
OF CIRCUMSTANCES, A PRONOUN MAY
NOT EVEN BE REQUIRED.
THERE ARE LOTS OF CREATIVE WAYS
TO AVOID USING GENDER PRONOUNS
AT ALL.
SO I THINK THAT... BUT WHEN YOU
ACTUALLY LOOK AT THE CASES THAT
ARE COMING BEFORE TRIBUNALS,
WE'RE NOT SEEING THAT TO BE
REALLY THE PRIMARY ISSUE.
IT'S MUCH MORE BASIC HUMAN
RIGHTS QUESTIONS, WHICH IS WHAT
THE FEDERAL LEGISLATION HERE,
BILL C-16, TRIES TO ACCOMPLISH.

Steve says ALL RIGHT.
I THINK WE'VE SET THE TABLE NOW.
YOU WANT TO GET IN ON THIS NOW,
I CAN TELL.
YOU'VE HEARD WHAT THE PROFESSOR
HAS HAD TO SAY.
WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE?

The caption changes to "Jordan Peterson. University of Toronto."

Jordan is in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short gray hair. He's wearing a brown coat over a yellow t-shirt.

He says WELL, I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT
THE CLAIM THAT THERE'S NO SUCH
THING AS BIOLOGICAL SEX MEANS,
AND I CERTAINLY THINK IT'S...
LET'S CALL IT AN ERROR TO
SUGGEST THAT THERE'S SOME SORT
OF SCIENTIFIC CONSENSUS ABOUT
THAT.
I MEAN, THERE'S BIOLOGICAL
DIFFERENCES BETWEEN MALES AND
FEMALES IN ANIMALS AND HUMAN
BEINGS AT EVERY LEVEL OF
ANALYSIS...

Steve says I'M JUMPING IN HERE.
WHAT ABOUT THE NOTION HE PUT
FORWARD AT THE END THERE, THAT
IF YOU DO NOT REFER TO PEOPLE
WITH THE PRONOUN THAT THEY
PREFER TO BE REFERRED TO, THAT
IS A FORM, ACCORDING TO THE
HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION, OF
DISCRIMINATION.

The caption changes to "The week in review. @theagenda, tvo.org"

Jordan says IT'S NOT JUST A FORM OF
DISCRIMINATION, IT'S A FORM OF
HATE SPEECH.
THAT'S WHY I MADE THE VIDEO.
I SAID THAT WE WERE IN DANGER OF
PLACING THE REFUSAL TO USE
CERTAIN KINDS OF LANGUAGE INTO
THE SAME CATEGORY AS HOLOCAUST
DENIAL AND SUGGESTED THAT MAYBE
THAT WASN'T SUCH A GOOD IDEA,
ESPECIALLY SINCE THERE IS PLENTY
OF DEBATE TO BE HAD ABOUT GENDER
ISSUES IN OUR SOCIETY, WHICH I
ALSO THINK ARE ALSO IN DANGER OF
BECOMING ILLEGAL AND QUITE
RAPIDLY.
SO IT ISN'T CLEAR TO ME HOW LONG
WE'LL BE ABLE TO HAVE THE TALK
THAT WE'RE HAVING RIGHT NOW.

Kyle says CAN I JUMP IN THERE ON...

Steve says PLEASE.

Kyle says I THINK IT'S A COMMON
MISCONCEPTION ABOUT BILL C-16
THAT IT'S SOMEHOW GOING TO MAKE
PRONOUN USE INTO HATE SPEECH.
IF YOU ACTUALLY LOOK AT THE
PROVISIONS, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
VERY MINOR AMENDMENTS TO THE
CRIMINAL CODE...

Jordan says THEY'RE NOT MINOR.
THEY PUT IT INTO THE HATE SPEECH
CATEGORY.
THEY'RE NOT MINOR AT ALL.
THAT'S A MISSTATEMENT.

Kyle says LET ME JUMP IN ON...

Jordan says DON'T TELL ME THEY'RE MINOR.
THAT'S NOT RIGHT.

Kyle says PARDON ME.
SO SECTION 318 SETS OUT A SERIES
OF IDENTIFIABLE GROUPS, AND
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE CLEAREST
OF CASES, THE CASES OF
ADVOCATING GENOCIDE, AND WE HAVE
A SERIES OF GROUPS THAT ARE
ALREADY IDENTIFIED IN THE CODE,
AND ALL THIS DOES IS ADD GENDER
IDENTITY AND GENDER EXPRESSION
TO THE CATEGORIES THAT ARE
ALREADY IDENTIFIED.
AND SO I THINK WE REALLY HAVE TO
ADD SOME REASONABLENESS TO THIS
DISCUSSION, ACTUALLY CLEARLY
ARTICULATE WHAT THE PROVISION
DOES.

Steve says LET ME BE A LITTLE
CLEARER ABOUT WHAT SOME OF THE
PROBLEMS... WHAT YOU MIGHT BE
ASKING FOR IF YOU WANT TO DO THIS.
FOR EXAMPLE, AND, SHELDON,
BOTTOM OF PAGE 3 HERE, LET'S PUT
THIS GRAPHIC UP.

Another quote appears on screen, under the title "No jail!" The quote reads "Pronoun misuse may become actionable, through the Human Rights Tribunals and courts. And the remedies? Monetary damages, non-financial remedies (for example, ceasing the discriminatory practice or reinstatement to job) and public interest remedies (for example, changing hiring practices or developing non-discriminatory policies and procedures).
Jail time is not one of them."
Quoted from Brenda Cossman, sds.utoronto.ca, October 2016.

Steve says JORDAN, YOU'RE NOT
GOING TO GO TO JAIL IF YOU KEEP
THIS UP.
DO YOU FIND THAT REASSURING?

Jordan says WHAT IF I DON'T PAY THE FINE?

Steve says THEN WHAT?

Jordan says THEN WHAT?
AND LET'S TALK ABOUT THE
LEGALITIES FOR A MINUTE.
AS YOU KNOW, THE UNIVERSITY OF
TORONTO SENT ME TWO WARNING
LETTERS, RIGHT?
AND THE SECOND ONE BASICALLY
ASKED ME TO STOP TALKING ABOUT THIS.

Steve says WHO SENT THE LETTERS?

Jordan says THE FIRST... IT'S THE
ADMINISTRATION, FUNDAMENTALLY.
THE HIGHER UP PEOPLE IN THE
ADMINISTRATION.
THE LAST ONE WAS THE DEAN OF THE
FACULTY OF ARTS AND SCIENCE.
BUT, YOU KNOW, IT'S COMING FROM
THE TOP END OF THE UNIVERSITY.

Steve says AND THE LETTERS SAID
ESSENTIALLY YOU MUST CALL PEOPLE
BY THE PRONOUNS THEY WANT?

Jordan says THE LETTERS BASICALLY SAID, AND THIS IS PARAPHRASING,
OBVIOUSLY, THAT I'M REQUIRED TO
ABIDE BY THE UNIVERSITY POLICIES
AND THE ONTARIO HUMAN RIGHTS CODE.
THERE'S A STRONG IMPLICATION IN
THE LETTER, BY HAVING THIS
DISCUSSION, THAT I WASN'T DOING
SO, AND SO THEY'RE ASKING ME TO
STOP.
AND I CAN TELL YOU ALSO WHY
THEY'RE ASKING ME TO STOP APART
FROM THAT.
THE CODES AS WRITTEN MAKE THE
UNIVERSITY JUST AS LIABLE FOR MY
SPEECH AS I AM.
SO NOT ONLY IS THERE A
REASONABLE POSSIBILITY THAT WHAT
I'M DOING IS UTTERING HATE
SPEECH NOW UNDER OUR LAW BUT THE
UNIVERSITY IS LEGALLY
RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT, AND SO I
THINK THEY CONSULTED WITH THEIR
LAWYERS AND DECIDED THAT MAYBE
THE CLAIM THAT I WAS MAKING IN
MY VIDEO WAS CORRECT, THAT...
AND SO I DON'T REGARD THAT AS
TRIVIAL AND I THINK THE LAWYER
WHO IS DISCUSSING THIS IS
DOWNPLAYING THE SIGNIFICANCE OF
IT TREMENDOUSLY.

The caption changes to "Nicholas Matte. University of Toronto."

Nicholas is in his forties, shaven-headed, with a trimmed beard. He's wearing glasses, a black suit, checkered black shirt, and purple tie.

He says COULD I SPEAK TO THE CLIMATE
ABOUT THIS, BECAUSE I DON'T
AGREE WITH WHY DR. PETERSON HAS
BEEN ASKED TO STOP ABUSING
STUDENTS ON CAMPUS.

Jordan says TO STOP DOING WHAT?

Nicholas says ABUSING STUDENTS.

Jordan says I SEE.

Nicholas says AND OTHER MEMBERS OF OUR LEARNING COMMUNITY WHO DO
DESERVE RESPECT AND DO DESERVE
TO BE ABLE TO WORK AND LEARN AND
CONTRIBUTE TO SOCIETY IN A PLACE
WHERE, IF THEY ARE PHYSICALLY
ASSAULTED, IF THEY ARE...

Jordan says THE ASSAULT SO FAR CAME FROM THE SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIORS WHO
WERE AT THE FREE SPEECH RALLY
AND ALMOST TWO MILLION PEOPLE
HAVE WATCHED THAT SO FAR.

Nicholas says THIS IS NOT ACCURATE.

Jordan says WELL, YOU CAN LOOK AT THE VIDEOS YOURSELF.

Nicholas says BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN MAKING COMPLAINTS ABOUT YOUR
BEHAVIOUR.

Jordan says YES, I UNDERSTAND THAT.

Nicholas says YES.
AND SO...

Steve says CAN I JUST BE CLEAR
ON SOMETHING HERE, NICK...

Nicholas says MANY PEOPLE WON'T UNDERSTAND.

Steve says NICK, CAN I BE CLEAR
OF SOMETHING?
YOU'VE ACCUSED HIM OF ABUSING
STUDENTS BY NOT USING THE
PRONOUNS THEY REQUEST.

Nicholas says I HAVE.

Steve says THAT IS TANTAMOUNT
TO ABUSE IN YOUR VIEW?

Nicholas says ABSOLUTELY.
MANY, MANY GLOBAL DOCUMENTS...

Jordan says IS IT TANTAMOUNT TO VIOLENCE?

Nicholas says YES.

Jordan says HOW ABOUT HATE SPEECH?

Nicholas says OF COURSE IT'S HATE SPEECH.
SOME OF THEM YOU WON'T REFER TO
IN A WAY THAT RECOGNIZES THEIR
HUMANITY AND DIGNITY.

Steve says MARY, LET ME GET YOU
IN ON THIS AT THIS POINT.

The caption changes to "For more on this story visit: tvo.org/theagenda"

Mary says SURE.

Steve says DO YOU HAVE
SOMETHING YOU WANT TO SAY OR CAN
I PUT A QUESTION TO YOU?

Mary says BOTH.
PUT THE QUESTION.

Steve says YOU'RE A WRITER, MARY.

Mary says I AM.

Steve says I KNOW YOU CARE
ABOUT FREE SPEECH BECAUSE YOU'RE
A WRITER.

Mary says YES.

Steve says DOES JORDAN PETERSON
HAVE A LITTLE PLACE IN YOUR
HEART BECAUSE HE'S ARGUING FREE
SPEECH HERE?

The caption changes to "Mary Rogan. Writer."
Then, it changes again to "Free speech versus social justice."

Mary is in her fifties, with very short gray hair. She's wearing a dark blue shirt.

Mary says I THINK THE INTERESTING THING
ABOUT JORDAN AND HOW I FEEL
ABOUT HIS VIDEO AND... JORDAN
AND I ACTUALLY HAD AN
OPPORTUNITY TO TALK AT LENGTH
BEFORE I WROTE THE WALRUS
ARTICLE, AND HE... VERY CLOSE TO
THINGS PEOPLE CAN RELATE TO.
I THINK WE WANT TO HAVE AN OPEN
DISCOURSE, WE WANT CONVERSATIONS
TO UNFOLD, WE WANT PEOPLE, IF
THEY HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY, IF
THEY HAVE A QUESTION, THEY CAN
ASK IT, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE
CENSORED.
BUT HE SAILS CLOSE AND RIGHT
PAST IT, AND THAT'S WHERE HE AND
I PART WAYS.
WHAT I DON'T REALLY UNDERSTAND
IS, WHEN YOU LISTEN TO THE
VIDEO, HE PILES A LOT OF THINGS
INTO THE BASKET OF USING THE
PRONOUNS THAT PEOPLE WANT, AND
IT SEEMS TO ME, AND YOU CAN
CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, BUT ONE
OF HIS ANXIETIES, AND HE TALKS
ABOUT BEING FEARFUL AND ANXIOUS
IN HIS VIDEO, THAT SOMEHOW
THERE'S A CABAL OF TRANS
ACTIVISTS WHO HAVE SO MUCH POWER
THAT THEY ARE GOING TO
BASICALLY, YOU KNOW, USING THE
PRONOUNS THAT PEOPLE WANT AND
CAPITULATING TO THESE DEMANDS
SORT OF PULLS OUT THE CRITICAL
GENGA PIECE OF THE WESTERN
CANNON, I MEAN, BASICALLY JORDAN
IS ARGUING THAT THIS IS GOING TO
CREATE CHAOS AND ANARCHY AND
IT'S ESSENTIALLY A MARXIST PLOT
THAT IS THERE TO SOW VIOLENCE
AND THERE TO SOW CONFUSION AND
TOPPLE ANY KIND OF HIERARCHY.

Now music plays as an animated slate reads "The week in review."

Now Steve sits with different guests.

A caption on screen reads "Sexual violence and the courts. A different system of justice."
Then, it changes to "Davit Butt. Criminal Lawyer."

David is in his fifties, clean-shaven and balding. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and spotted burgundy tie.

He says TO HEAR BREESE TALK, YOU'D
THINK THE STATUS QUO IS FINE AND
EVERYTHING IS HUNKY DORY.
THERE ARE THE OCCASIONAL BAD
ACTORS, BUT THAT'S THE ONLY
PROBLEM WE HAVE.
ACTUALLY WE HAVE A MUCH BIGGER
PROBLEM THAN THAT.
IF YOU THINK OF THIS IN TERMS OF
SERVICE DELIVERY AND YOU LISTEN
TO MARIE'S ACCURATE STATISTICS
ABOUT UNDERREPORTING AND
PARTICIPATION, WE ARE PROFOUNDLY
FAILING TO SERVE THE VICTIM
COMMUNITY WITH THE CRIMINAL
JUSTICE SYSTEM.
AND MY RESPONSE TO THAT THESIS,
WE'VE BEEN TINKERING WITH IT FOR
YEARS, GETTING RID OF QUESTIONS
ABOUT PRIOR SEXUAL CONDUCT AND
SO ON, AND THE REPORTING RATES
HAVEN'T CHANGED.
I SAY, AFTER 30 YEARS OF REFORM
IN A TINKERING FASHION TO THE
CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM, WE NEED
TO THINK MORE BIGLY, IF I CAN
USE THAT WORD.

Steve says AND REPORTING RATES
HAVEN'T CHANGED BECAUSE PEOPLE
STILL ASSUME THEY'RE GOING TO BE
PUT THROUGH THE MEAT GRINDER
WHEN THEY COME TO COURT.

David says EXACTLY RIGHT.
AND WE'RE STILL CREATING A
PROCESS THAT IS TRAUMATIC FOR
VICTIMS.
SO I THINK WE NEED TO, WITHOUT
ABANDONING FUNDAMENTAL PRECEPTS
LIKE THE PRESUMPTION OF
INNOCENCE AND PROOF BEYOND A
REASONABLE DOUBT, WE NEED TO
RECREATE A COURTROOM THAT IS
MORE SENSITIVE, BUT WE ALSO NEED
TO THINK ABOUT WHETHER, IN SOME
CASES, THERE ARE ALTERNATIVE
METHODS THAT DON'T INVOLVE THE
CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM, AND
PEOPLE MIGHT CRITICIZE ME FOR
SAYING, WELL, YOU'RE TREATING
SEXUAL ASSAULT LESS SERIOUSLY.
I SAY NO.
IF WE LISTEN TO THE VOICES OF
VICTIMS AND GIVE THEM A HEALING
JOURNEY AND VALIDATION IN
ALTERNATIVE METHODS THAT WORK
FOR THEM, THEN WE ARE ACTUALLY
TREATING SEXUAL ASSAULT MORE
SERIOUSLY.

Steve says I DO WANT TO PURSUE
THAT BUT I FEEL I NEED TO GIVE
YOU AN OPPORTUNITY BECAUSE I
DON'T THINK YOU EVER SAID YOU'RE
DEFENDING THE STATUS QUO.
DO YOU WANT TO TAKE HIM ON ON
THAT?

The caption changes to "Breese Davies. Criminal Lawyer's Association."

Breese is in her thirties, with short wavy blond hair. She's wearing glasses and a black cardigan over a green printed shirt.

She says THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS WE
NEED TO ASK ABOUT SEXUAL
VIOLENCE AND WHY IT'S NOT BEING
REPORTED AT THE LEVEL OF SOME
OTHER CRIME.
FIRST OF ALL, WHAT ARE THE
BARRIERS TO PEOPLE COMING
FORWARD?
THERE ARE LOTS OF STEPS IN THE
PROCESS BEFORE IT EVER ENDS UP
IN A TRIAL.
IN FACT, THERE ARE LOTS OF
CRIMINAL MATTERS THAT RESOLVE
WITHOUT ANY TRIAL AT ALL.
SO ARE THE BARRIERS AT THE
REPORTING STAGE, SORT OF AT THE
INTERFACE WITH COMPLAINANTS AND
THE POLICE?
IS THE BARRIER THE INTERFACE
WITH THE JUSTICE SYSTEM?
IS THE BARRIER THE TRIAL ITSELF?

The caption changes to "The week in review. @theagenda, tvo.org"

Steve says DO YOU WANT TO GIVE
AN EXAMPLE OF THIS?

Breese says WELL, I DON'T THINK WE KNOW
WHY IT IS COMPLAINANTS ARE
DECIDING NOT TO COME FORWARD.
IS IT THAT THEY DON'T FEEL
THEY'RE BEING LISTENED TO BY THE
POLICE AND THAT THE INTERVIEW
PROCESS WITH THE POLICE IS NOT
SUFFICIENTLY COMPASSIONATE AND
UNDERSTANDING?

Steve says WE CAN COME TO SOME
PRETTY GOOD SURMISING ABOUT WHY
PEOPLE DON'T COME FORWARD, CAN'T WE?

Breese says I DON'T THINK WE CAN.
I DON'T THINK WE CAN SAY, IT'S
THE PROCESS OF CROSS-EXAMINATION
TWO YEARS DOWN THE LINE THAT'S
WHAT THE BARRIER IS TO PEOPLE
COMING FORWARD.
I DON'T THINK WE HAVE A GOOD
UNDERSTANDING OF THAT.
AND I'M NOT SURE WE HAVE A GOOD
UNDERSTANDING OF HOW AM PEOPLE
WHO HAVE BEEN THE VICTIM OF
SEXUAL VIOLENCE WANT TO COME
FORWARD AND ARE NOT DOING THAT.
THAT'S AN IMPORTANT QUESTION.
PEOPLE GET VICTIMIZED IN ALL
SORTS OF DIFFERENT WAYS.
IT'S NOT RIGHT.
IT SHOULDN'T HAPPEN.
WE SHOULD ACTUALLY BE FOCUSING,
IN MY VIEW, OUR ATTENTION ON
PREVENTING SEXUAL VIOLENCE IN
THE FIRST PLACE.

Steve says SURE, SURE.

Breese says BUT PEOPLE GET VICTIMIZED IN
LOTS OF DIFFERENT WAYS, AND THEY
CHOOSE TO COME FORWARD OR NOT
FOR LOTS OF PERSONAL REASONS,
AND I THINK WHAT WE NEED TO KNOW
IS, WHY ARE PEOPLE CHOOSING NOT
TO COME FORWARD?
ARE THERE SYSTEMIC PROBLEMS
WITHIN THE JUSTICE SYSTEM THAT
STOP PEOPLE FROM COMING FORWARD?
WHAT ARE THEY?
AND I AGREE, IF THERE ARE
PROBLEMS, WE HAVE TO ADDRESS
THEM TO THE EXTENT THAT WE CAN
WITHOUT COMPROMISING AN ACCUSED
PERSON'S FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS.

Steve says GOOD QUESTIONS.
DO YOU WANT TO TRY ANSWERING
SOME OF THEM?

The caption changes to "Marie Corbett. Retired Ontario Superior Court Judge."

Marie is in her sixties, with blond hair in a bob and bangs. She's wearing a purple blazer over a black turtleneck, and a pendant necklace.

She says THERE'S A LOT THERE.
I THINK WOMEN DO NOT COME
FORWARD BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT
TREATED WITH RESPECT WHEN THEY
DO COME FORWARD ON SEXUAL
ISSUES.

Steve says NOT TREATED WITH
RESPECT BY WHOM?

Marie says THROUGHOUT.
THROUGHOUT.

Steve says POLICE, COURTS,
MEDIA...

Marie says THERE MIGHT BE.

Steve says PUBLIC.

Marie says IN GENERAL, YES.

Steve says IN GENERAL.

The caption changes to "For more on this story visit: tvo.org/theagenda"

Marie says AND CROSS-EXAMINATION IS
BRUTAL.
IT IS ABSOLUTELY BRUTAL.
IT CAN BE HUMILIATING, AND I DO
NOT BELIEVE THAT JUDGES ARE
SUFFICIENTLY INTERFERING AND
CONTROLLING IT BECAUSE THE
SUPREME COURT OF CANADA HAS SAID
CROSS-EXAMINATION IS ONE OF THE
BEST TECHNIQUES TO ASCERTAIN
TRUTH.
I SIMPLY DO NOT AGREE WITH THAT.
WOMEN DO NOT WISH TO COME
FORWARD AND HAVE ALL KINDS OF
ASPECTS OF THEMSELVES
SCRUTINIZED IN PERHAPS A
BULLYING AND BRUTAL WAY.
SECOND, IT'S AN ADVERSARY
SYSTEM, IT'S ONE AGAINST THE
OTHER, WHEN REALLY IT'S A
TRIPARTE KIND OF THINGS, IT'S
THE INTERESTS OF SOCIETY, IT'S
THE INTERESTS OF VICTIMS, AND
IT'S THE INTEREST OF ACCUSED.
AND QUITE OFTEN CROWN ATTORNEYS
ARE NOT ACTIVE ENOUGH IN
CONTAINING BULLYING
CROSS-EXAMINATION.
WITNESSES CAN BE CROSS-EXAMINED
ON MINUTIA OF SOMETHING THAT
MIGHT BE ALLOWED WHEN PERHAPS A
SIMPLE STATEMENT OF AGREEMENT:
YES, I DID SAY THAT EARLIER.
OR THAT SORT OF THING.
AND CROSS-EXAMINATION ON
INCONSISTENCIES GETS TO BE
GROTESQUE ON EVERY LITTLE THING.
OH, YOU WERE WEARING PINK
PAJAMAS, NOT BLUE.
AND THEN AT THE END EVERY LITTLE
DISCREPANCY IS LIKE A DARTBOARD
THAT SOMEHOW YOU HAVE ATTACKED
THIS PERSON.
WHO WANTS TO GO FORWARD AND DO THAT?

Now music plays as an animated slate reads "The week in review."

A caption on screen reads "The truth about trauma. Common characteristics."

A female guest sits with Steve. She is in her fifties, with short reddish-brown hair. She's wearing a black blazer over a white shirt, and a golden chain necklace.

She says YOU KNOW, IF I PULLED A GUN
ON YOU RIGHT NOW, AND I
CERTAINLY WOULDN'T.

Steve says PLEASE DON'T.

She says EXACTLY.

Steve says I SHOULD HAVE
CHECKED TO SEE IF YOU WERE
PACKING BEFORE, YES, EXACTLY.

She says BUT YOUR BRAIN... YOU WOULD
FOCUS ON MY WEAPON.
YOUR WHOLE PERCEPTUAL FIELD
WOULD NARROW AND YOU WOULDN'T BE
ENCODING ANY OTHER INFORMATION.
YOU WOULD BE ENCODING JUST THE
CENTRAL DETAIL.

Steve says OTHER STUFF COULD BE
GOING ON HERE AND I WOULDN'T
KNOW...

She says EXACTLY.
AND MOST PEOPLE ARE ASKED
QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT WAS GOING
ON AROUND YOU.

Steve says AND THAT EXPLAINS
WHY THEY DON'T KNOW.

She says EXACTLY.

Steve says IN WHICH CASE WHY,
PARTICULARLY IN SETTINGS AROUND
THE JUSTICE SYSTEM, COURTS,
INTERVIEWS WITH THE CROWN,
POLICE, AND SO ON, WHY DO WE
EXPECT PEOPLE, WHY DO WE
APPARENTLY EXPECT PEOPLE, WHO
HAVE BEEN THROUGH THIS KIND OF
TRAUMA, TO BEHAVE COMPLETELY
RATIONALLY AND RESPOND, YOU
KNOW, IN THE WAY THAT ONE WOULD
REQUIRE IN A COURT?

The caption changes to "Lori Haskell. University of Toronto."

She says I THINK IT'S BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVEN'T UNDERSTOOD THE
NEUROBIOLOGY OF THESE
EXPERIENCES.
SO WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE BRAIN
IS FLOODED?
PART OF THE BRAIN BECOMES
DEACTIVATED, INCLUDING THE
PREFRONTAL CORTEX WHICH IS OUR
RATIONAL, EXECUTIVE, THINKING
PART OF THE BRAIN, BECAUSE
THAT'S NOT NECESSARY FOR
SURVIVAL.
SURVIVAL, YOU WANT TO GO INTO A
MORE PRIMITIVE STATE OF JUST
FOCUSING ON THE CENTRAL DETAILS,
TRYING TO GET THROUGH IT.
SO I THINK... I MEAN, AFTER A
CAR ACCIDENT, WE DON'T EXPECT
SOMEONE TO BE ABLE TO TELL A
STORY, RIGHT?
SO THERE'S A SENSE THAT
PEOPLE... I THINK THERE'S AN
ASSUMPTION THAT IT'S NOT
TERRIFYING.
MAYBE THERE'S AN ASSUMPTION THAT
A SEXUAL ASSAULT ISN'T SOMETHING
THAT CREATES A LOT OF FEAR AND
THREAT FOR SOMEONE AND THEN
MINIMIZING THOSE RESPONSES
BECAUSE GENERALLY... I HAVE LOTS
OF SEXUAL ASSAULT VICTIMS THAT
COME TO MY PRIVATE PRACTICE.
MOST OF THEM CANNOT TELL ME THE
STORY.
IT TAKES A LONG TIME TO CREATE
THAT NARRATIVE.
THEY DON'T HAVE... AND THEY
CERTAINLY, DURING THE MIDDLE OF
THE ASSAULT, THEY'RE NOT
STRATEGIZING OR THINKING
THROUGH.
SO I WAS AN EXPERT IN THE COURT
IN ONE CASE WHERE A WOMAN WAS
QUITE TERRIFIED OF A MAN WHO HAD
BEEN SEXUALLY ASSAULTING HER AND
HE HAD WALKED OUT ONE NIGHT, HE
WAS DRUNK AND POUNDING ON THE
DOOR SAYING LET ME IN.
SHE STOOD ON THE OTHER SIDE OF
THE DOOR AND THEN SHE OPENED IT.
SO DURING COURT THE DEFENCE IS
SAYING, WELL, IF YOU WERE SO
AFRAID TO HIM, WHY DID YOU LET
HIM IN?
AND SHE SAID I DON'T KNOW.
AND THAT'S A PRETTY TYPICAL
RESPONSE.
IT WASN'T THAT SHE WAS IN
RATIONAL THINKING... WHY DIDN'T
YOU GO TO THE PHONE AND CALL
911.
THAT WASN'T AVAILABLE TO HER.
SHE THOUGHT IF I DON'T, I'M
GOING TO BE IN WORSE DANGER.
AND PART OF THE BRAIN WOULD HAVE
BEEN DISCONNECTED AND SHE WASN'T
THINKING.
UNFORTUNATELY NO ONE SAYS, WHAT
WERE YOU FEELING?
WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?
AND WHEN I'M AN EXPERT IN COURT,
THEY JUST GIVE ME A TRANSCRIPT
THAT SAYS, WHAT DID YOU DO NEXT?
WHAT DID YOU DO NEXT?
SOMEONE SAID WHILE YOU WERE
STANDING OUTSIDE THAT DOOR, DO
YOU REMEMBER WHAT YOU WERE
FEELING IN YOUR BODY?
DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT THOUGHTS
WERE GOING THROUGH YOUR HEAD?
SHE MIGHT SAY I FELT FROZEN OR I
DON'T REMEMBER FEELING ANYTHING.
THAT'S EVIDENCE.
THAT MEANS SOMEONE IS
DISSOCIATIVE OR SHUT DOWN.
OR IF SHE SAID ALL I COULD THINK
OF, DO WHAT YOU NEED TO DO TO
SURVIVE.
AGAIN, THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT
INFORMATION.
BUT THOSE THINGS GET MISSED.

The caption changes to "The week in review. @theagenda, tvo.org"

Steve says WHAT DO YOU THINK IT
says ABOUT THE JUSTICE SYSTEM
THAT FOR SOME REASON, IF THE
TRAUMA OF A CAR ACCIDENT, ON THE
ONE HAND, AND THE TRAUMA OF AN
ATTEMPTED RAPE ON THE OTHER
HAND, WE SEEM TO HAVE LOTS OF
UNDERSTANDING FOR WHY THE MIND
MIGHT SHUT DOWN AND NOT REALIZE
VARIOUS FACTS WITH THE CAR
ACCIDENT, BUT SOMEHOW THE
JUSTICE SYSTEM DOESN'T SEEM TO
APPRECIATE THE SAME COULD BE
TRUE IN AN ATTEMPTED RAPE?

The caption changes to "For more on this story visit: tvo.org/theagenda"

Lori says EXACTLY.
I DON'T WANT TO GENERALIZE TOO
MUCH, BUT I STILL THINK THERE'S
AN ATTITUDE THAT RAPE IS JUST
SEX.
NOT THAT RAPE IS A HORRIFYING,
THREATENING EXPERIENCE FOR
PEOPLE WHO ARE VICTIMS OF IT.
ESPECIALLY IF IT'S RELATIONAL.

The clips end and Steve stands in the studio alone.

The wall screen behind him reads "Connect with us: TVO.org, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube."

Steve says AND THAT IS THE
AGENDA'S WEEK IN REVIEW.
YOU CAN SEE ALL OF THOSE
PROGRAMS IN THEIR ENTIRETY AT
tvo.org; ON OUR iTUNES CHANNEL,
AND ON OUR YouTube CHANNEL AT
youtube.com/theagenda.

Watch: The Agenda's Week in Review