Transcript: Women, Diversity and Media | Jun 28, 2016

Nam sits in the studio. She's in her thirties, with shoulder-length curly brown hair. She's wearing blue-framed glasses, a black blazer, and a magenta blouse.

A caption on screen reads "Nam Kiwanuka, @namshine."
Then, it changes again to "Women, diversity and media."

Nam says BREAKING INTO A
CHALLENGING FIELD OF WORK CAN BE
TOUGH FOR ANYONE.
AND FOR WOMEN OF COLOUR, THERE
CAN BE ADDED OBSTACLES,
ESPECIALLY WHEN THAT JOB IS VERY
PUBLIC, LIKE, WELL, THIS ONE.
AND THAT'S LEFT MANY DIVERSE
WOMEN IN MEDIA WITH DIFFICULT
QUESTIONS: ARE THEY REGARDED
DIFFERENTLY?
ARE THEY A TOKEN HIRE?
DO THEY HAVE TO WHITEWASH THEIR
LOOKS TO FIT IN?
JOINING US NOW FOR THEIR VIEWS:
IN REGINA, SASKATCHEWAN:
EMAN BARE, CBC NEWS REPORTER.

Eman is in her thirties, and wears a beige hijab and a black robe.

Nam continues AND HERE IN TORONTO:
TRACY MOORE, HOST OF Cityline ON
CityTV;

Tracy is in her late thirties, with shoulder-length straight black hair. She's wearing a sleeveless black dress.

Nam continues PAY CHEN, HOST OF THE PAY CHEN
SHOW ON NEWSTALK 1010;

Pay is in her forties, with long wavy black hair and bangs. She's wearing a sleeveless blue dress.

Nam continues AND, CAMILLE DUNDAS, A WRITER
AND PRODUCER FOR CTV's CANADA A.M.

Camille is in her forties, with short curly black hair. She's wearing a sleeveless magenta shirt and a pendant necklace.

Nam continues WELCOME, LADIES.

All the guests say THANK YOU.

Nam says IT'S SO FUN TO HAVE
YOU ALL OF YOU AND WE'RE GOING
TO GET INTO AN IMPORTANT
DISCUSSION.
PAY, WELCOME BACK TO TVO.

Pay says IT'S BEEN A WHILE.
15 YEARS.

Nam says WHAT DID YOU USED TO
DO HERE?

Pay says I USED TO WORK ON
THE TEEN SHOW THAT WAS HERE FOR
A COUPLE OF YEARS CALLED VOX AND
I WAS IN THE KIDS DEPARTMENT, A
FIELD RESEARCHER AND PRODUCER.

Nam says WELCOME BACK.
I WANTED TO START OUR
CONVERSATION BY READING THIS QUOTE...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "The numbers." The quote reads "People of colour make up only 3.4 percent of staff at Canadian newspapers, according to a 2004 study by Ryerson University professor emeritus John Miller, the most recent on the matter. This demographic makeup, which does not seem to have improved much since 2004, stands in stark contrast to the country's population as a whole; visible minorities make up 19.1 percent of the population, according to the 2011 National Household Survey."
Quoted from Davide Mastracci, Ryerson Review of Journalism, November 24, 2015.

Nam says THAT'S DAVIDE MASTRACCI
FROM RYERSON REVIEW OF
JOURNALISM.
EMAN, I WOULD LIKE TO START WITH YOU.
WHY DOES IT MATTER THERE ARE
MORE DIVERSE JOURNALISTS
REFLECTING CANADA'S POPULATION?

The caption changes to "Eman Bare. CBC News Saskatchewan."

Eman says I DEFINITELY
THINK IT'S THE TYPE OF STORIES
YOU BRING IN.
ONE OF THE WAYS WE GET STORIES
IS FROM SOCIAL MEDIA.
DEPENDING ON WHAT SOCIAL GROUP
YOU WOULD ASSOCIATE WITH OR A
PART OF, YOUR NEWS FEED IS GOING
TO LOOK DIFFERENT.
IT'S NOT THAT HAVING... THE LACK
OF DIVERSITY DOESN'T NECESSARILY
MEAN THAT YOU IGNORE CERTAIN
TYPES OF STORIES, IT JUST MEANS
THAT YOU DON'T... YOU DON'T HAVE
ACCESS TO THOSE STORIES AND YOU
MAYBE AREN'T GOING TO BE AS IN
WITH A CERTAIN COMMUNITY AND
THAT TYPE OF THING.
SO IT REALLY BRINGS ALL VOICES
TO THE TABLE WHEN YOU HAVE A
MORE REFLECTIVE MEDIA
POPULATION.

Nam says NOW, PAY, THOSE
NUMBERS I CITED WERE FOR
NEWSPAPERS.
IS IT ANY DIFFERENT IN BROADCAST
MEDIA OR THE SAME?

The caption changes to "Pay Chen. Newstalk 1010."
Then, it changes again to "Missing views."

Pay says I... I MEAN, I
DON'T KNOW THE NUMBERS BUT IT
DOESN'T SURPRISE ME, THE NUMBER
BEING THAT SMALL.
YEAH, THAT MAKES SENSE.
MOST OF THE WORK PLACES I'VE
BEEN AT OR THE SHOWS I'VE WORKED
ON AND I'VE WORKED AT DIFFERENT
PLACES, ESPECIALLY AS A
FREELANCER, YOU'RE IN AND OUT OF
DIFFERENT STATIONS.
IT MIGHT BE A LITTLE HIGHER
BECAUSE OF THE BEHIND-THE-SCENES
PRODUCERS, PAs, BUT OVERALL I
WOULDN'T SAY THAT THE DIVERSITY
IN, YOU KNOW, THE BROADCAST
SENSE, IN A NEWSROOM OR IN
PROGRAMMING OR PRODUCTION IS AT
ALL REFLECTIVE OF WHAT IS
ACTUALLY OUT THERE IN TERMS OF
THE CANADIAN POPULATION.

Nam says I FIND IT SURPRISING
THAT THAT STUDY WAS FROM 2004.
THAT'S MORE THAN 10 YEARS AGO.
CAMILLE, IS IT GETTING BETTER OR WORSE?

The caption changes to "Camille Dundas. CTV News."

Camille says I WOULDN'T
SAY IT'S GETTING BETTER.
WHERE I WORK IN TERMS OF PEOPLE
WITH PERMANENT JOBS, THERE'S ME
AND ONE OTHER BLACK WOMAN.
WHEN A FREELANCER OR CONTRACT
PERSON COMES IN AND THEY'RE
BLACK, I'M, OH, YOU MADE IT.

[Laughter]

Camille says WE'RE HERE.
IT'S A SURPRISE WHEN YOU SEE
ANOTHER PERSON OF COLOUR COME TO WORK.
I'M NOT SURPRISED EITHER AND IT
HASN'T GOTTEN THAT MUCH BETTER.
I THINK THAT IT REALLY, IN TERMS
OF... EMAN WAS TALKING ABOUT,
YOU KNOW, YOU GO TO WHAT YOU
KNOW, RIGHT?
THAT'S WHY IT'S IMPORTANT TO
HAVE PEOPLE OF COLOUR IN TERMS
OF THE STORIES THAT THEY BRING.
IT'S THE SAME THING IN HIRING.
YOU HIRE PEOPLE THAT YOU KNOW
THAT YOU'RE COMFORTABLE WITH, SO
IT HAS TO START AT THAT LEVEL IN
TERMS OF WHO THEY'RE HIRING.

Nam says ARE PEOPLE AWARE
THEY'RE DOING THAT?

Camille says I DON'T
THINK SO.
I DON'T THINK IT'S AN
INTENTIONAL THING.
BUT PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE
POWER... POSITION OF POWER TO
HIRE, THEY MAY HAVE FRIENDS, OH,
YOU KNOW, MY NEPHEW, SO AND SO,
GRADUATED FROM JOURNALISM
SCHOOL.
THINGS MAY WORK LIKE THAT.
OR THEY MAY FEEL COMFORTABLE
WITH SOMEONE THEY HAVE COMMON
GROUND WITH.
IT'S IMPORTANT TO FORCE PEOPLE
TO HIRE OUT OF THAT BOX.

Nam says NOW, TRACY, HOW HARD
WAS IT FOR YOU TO BREAK INTO THE
BUSINESS AS A WOMAN OF COLOUR?

The caption changes to "Tracy Moore. CityTV."
Then, it changes again to "Making it?"

Tracy says YOU KNOW WHAT?
I WORKED VERY HARD AND MY
PARENTS ARE THE SORT OF PARENTS
THAT ALWAYS SAID, YES, YOU ARE A
WOMAN OF COLOUR BUT YOU'RE GOING
TO GET AHEAD DESPITE THAT.
SO I WOULDN'T SAY I WOKE UP
EVERY MORNING AND THOUGHT ABOUT
IT AND, YOU KNOW, DEALT SORT OF
MADE MY DAY REFLECTIVE OF THE
FACT THAT I AM A VISIBLE MINORITY.
I WENT FOR IT.
I MADE SURE I TRIED TO OPEN
EVERY SINGLE DOOR.
I WORKED HARDER THAN EVERYONE
AROUND ME BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT
WE'RE TAUGHT.
YOU WORK HARDER, YOU BE SMARTER,
YOU BE FASTER, BETTER, STRONGER,
BE MORE POLITE, DON'T PISS
EVERYONE OFF.

Camille says YOU DON'T WANT THAT.

Tracy says YOU MUST OBAMA THE SITUATION
AND THAT MEANS YOU ARE PLACATING
PEOPLE ALL THE TIME.
THERE ARE A CERTAIN SET OF
ASSUMPTIONS YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE
TO DEAL WITH AS SOON AS YOU WALK
THROUGH THE DOOR.
YOU'RE GOING TO BE
UNDERESTIMATED.
PEOPLE ARE GOING TO THINK YOU'RE
THERE ON SOME KIND OF A
DIVERSITY BURSARY, HIRE, AND SO
YOU'RE THE ONE THAT HAS TO GO IN
THERE, REALLY PLEASANT AND
POLITE AND SMART AND INTELLIGENT
AND SHOW EVERYONE, NO, I'M HERE
BASED ON MERIT.
THE WHOLE MERITOCRACY ARGUMENT
IS A LOT OF BULL.
IF IT WERE BASED ON MERIT, WE
WOULD HAVE AN EQUAL AMOUNT OF
REPRESENTATION IN THESE WORK
PLACES AND AT THESE NETWORKS AND
NEWSPAPERS AS WE DO IN SOCIETY,
BECAUSE AT MY WORKPLACE, THE
INTERNS THAT COME IN, THERE'S A
TON OF DIVERSITY AND THEN
THERE'S SOME KIND OF DISCONNECT.
WHAT'S HAPPENING?

Nam says DO YOU THINK THIS
ARGUMENT WITH MERITOCRACY IS
MORE A DEFENSIVE RESPONSE?

Tracy says AS CAMILLE
SAID, THINGS ARE NOT BEING DONE
MALICIOUSLY.
FOR PEOPLE TO CONFRONT THEIR OWN
DISCRIMINATORY HABITS, IT'S VERY
DIFFICULT.
IT'S DIFFICULT TALKING ABOUT
SOMEONE TREATING PEOPLE
UNFAIRLY.
PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE IT.
THEY REALIZE SUBCONSCIOUSLY HOW
DEVASTATING IT IS SO THEY CAN'T
OWN IT.

Camille says WHAT'S
EQUALLY DIFFICULT IS US CALLING
PEOPLE OUT ON IT.
THAT'S WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO.
TALKING ABOUT MERITOCRACY, I WAS
HIRED ON A DIVERSITY HIRE EXCEPT
I DIDN'T KNOW IT.
NOBODY BOTHERED TO TELL ME.
I FOUND OUT GOING TO A TRAINING
SESSION AND THE PERSON WHO WAS
LEADING THE TRAINING HAD A LIST
OF PEOPLE WHOSE NAMES WERE IN
THE TRAINING SESSION AND I SAW
AN ABBREVIATION NEXT TO MY NAME.
I WENT ON THE COMPANY'S WEBSITE
AND GOOGLED IT AND I WAS LIKE
WHAT?
THAT'S WHY PEOPLE WERE SAYING X,
Y, AND Z.
PEOPLE WERE MAKING WEIRD
COMMENTS IN THE BACKGROUND AND I
DIDN'T KNOW WHY.

Pay says IT'S SO NICE TO
HAVE YOU HERE.
OH, RUDE COMMENTS?
GOOD.

Camille says YOU'RE JUST
HERE BECAUSE OF BLAH BLAH BLAH.
OKAY, WHATEVER.
IT WAS A REAL CRISIS FOR ME AT
THE TIME BECAUSE I WAS REALLY
YOUNG, I HAD JUST STARTED AND I
WAS LIKE, OH, MY GOD.
AM I HERE JUST BECAUSE OF THIS?
LUCKILY I HAD A MENTOR, I WAS
ABLE TO TALK IT THROUGH, AND HE
SAID TO ME, YOU MAY HAVE GOTTEN
HERE THROUGH THAT, BUT THAT'S
NOT WHY YOU'RE HERE.
SO SHOW UP AND SHOW OUT.
THAT'S WHAT I HAD TO DO.
I ALSO HAD TO HAVE THE COURAGE
TO CHANGE MY MIND SET TO NOT BE
COWERING AT THE TABLE DURING
PITCHES WHEN SOMEBODY SAYS SOMETHING BLATANTLY RACIST.
I HAVE TO CALL IT OUT.
EXCUSE ME?
OH, NO, NO, NO.
WE'RE DOING SOMETHING ABOUT THE
RWANDAN GENOCIDE?
MAYBE WE SHOULD TALK TO SOMEONE
FROM RWANDA.
IT'S HARD.
WHEN YOU JUST START, YOU DON'T
WANT TO BE THAT PERSON.
IT'S THE ONLY WAY TO MAKE ANY
TYPE OF CHANGE TO BE THAT PERSON
WHO UNFAILINGLY CALLS SOMEBODY OUT.

Nam says I WANT TO BRING EMAN
INTO THE CONVERSATION.
YOU WERE LISTENING ABOUT
MERITOCRACY.
WHAT DO YOU THINK?

Eman says I THINK IT'S A
LITTLE BIT OF BOTH.
I COME FROM A PROVINCE THAT HAS
A LOT OF DIVERSITY, NOT
NECESSARILY IN MEDIA, BUT I
THINK IN THE SCHOOL I WENT TO,
THERE WEREN'T MANY STUDENTS OF
DIVERSE BACKGROUNDS AND THAT
TYPE OF THING.
SO I DON'T KNOW IN MY SITUATION
IF IT WAS NECESSARILY IN TERMS
OF COLOUR COMING TO THE DOOR BUT
NOT STAYING.
THERE WERE TWO BLACK GIRLS IN MY
CLASS, ME AND A FRIEND, AND SHE
DIDN'T... SHE ENDED UP NOT
LIKING JOURNALISM, CHOSE
SOMETHING ELSE.
I ENDED UP GETTING HIRED... AS
AN INTERN I GOT HIRED WHERE I
WORKED.
I NEVER REALLY FELT I WAS A
TOKEN HIRE OR ANYTHING LIKE
THAT.
I'VE ACTUALLY BEEN REALLY,
REALLY FORTUNATE WITH ALL THE
EXPERIENCES I'VE HAD.
I'VE HAD WONDERFUL MENTORS WHO
HAVEN'T BEEN PEOPLE OF COLOUR
BUT HAVE INVESTED IN ME AS A
JOURNALIST AND AS A YOUNG PERSON
FOR SURE.
THERE IS A DISCONNECT, LIKE, I'M
A BLACK MUSLIM WOMAN AND FOR ME
IT WAS WANTING TO GO TO
JOURNALISM, A LOT OF IT WAS MY
PARENTS SAYING YOU'LL NEVER GET
A JOB, YOU WEAR A HIJAB, IT'S
RIDICULOUS, DON'T EVEN THINK
ABOUT IT.
THE DISCONNECT ALSO COMES FROM
WHAT WE'RE TELLING YOUNG PEOPLE,
WHAT WE'RE TELLING THEM THEIR
OPPORTUNITIES CAN POTENTIALLY BE.

Nam says IT'S INTERESTING YOU
WERE GETTING THAT FROM VOICES
WHO WERE PEOPLE YOU KNEW, YOUR
PARENTS, BUT ALSO IF YOU LOOK ON
T.V., YOU DON'T SEE MANY WOMEN
WEARING A HIJAB.

Eman says THAT'S EXACTLY IT.
A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE THIS IDEA,
MUSLIM PEOPLE ESPECIALLY HAVE
THE IDEA IT'S NOT FOR YOU, SO...
ACTUALLY I KNOW A LOT OF YOUNG
MUSLIM WOMEN WHO WEAR A HIJAB
WHO ARE GRADUATING JOURNALISM
SCHOOL.
ONE OF MY GOOD FRIENDS IS A
REPORTER FOR CityTV IN
TORONTO.
SO I THINK THE LANDSCAPE WILL
DEFINITELY BE CHANGING THE NEXT
FEW YEARS.
BUT IT'S TAKING THE FIRST
GENERATION, SECOND GENERATION
CHILDREN TO, LIKE, TAKE THE
LEAP, MAYBE BE A LITTLE BIT MORE
BRAVE, SILENCE THE VOICES
TELLING THEM THEY CAN'T DO IT
AND DEVELOPING A REALLY, REALLY
WONDERFUL SUPPORT SYSTEM OF
PEOPLE WHO THINK YOU CAN DO IT
REGARDLESS OF WHAT OBSTACLES YOU
MIGHT HAVE IMAGINED OR THINGS
THAT POTENTIALLY ARE THERE.

Tracy says EMAN MENTIONS
AN INTERESTING POINT.
HER FRIEND IS AT MY STATION.

Nam says WHAT'S HER NAME?

Tracy says YOU KNOW WHAT?
I DON'T KNOW ANY OF THE
REPORTERS ANYMORE.
I DON'T KNOW ANY OF THEM.
THEY ARE A WHOLE NEW GENERATION
OF YOUNG PEOPLE.
I DO KNOW SHE WORKS AT THE
STATION NOW BECAUSE I NOTICE AND
I'M LIKE, YAY, CITY.
CITY HAS A GOOD TRADITION OF
BEING DIVERSE, THINKING OUTSIDE
THE BOX.
BUT LIKE CAMILLE SAID, WHEN IT
COMES TO THE HIRING, IT DOESN'T
NECESSARILY TRICKLE UP THROUGH
THE ECHELONS OF POWER.
SO THERE'S A REALLY BEAUTIFUL
WINDOW DRESSING AND IT'S LOVELY
AND VIBRANT AND IT'S THE UNITED
COLOURS OF BENNETON, AND YOU GO
TO SUPERVISING PRODUCERS AND
DIRECTORS AND EXECUTIVES AND
YOU'RE NOT SEEING THE SAME
REPRESENTATION.

Nam says THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE WITH POWER.

Tracy says THEY'RE HIRING
THE FOLKS THAT MIGHT BE FRIENDS,
PEOPLE THEY KNOW.

Pay says THEY'RE THE ONES
THAT HAVE THE ABILITY TO ADVANCE
PEOPLE FORWARD.
YOU'LL FIND SOMETIMES THAT THAT
PERSON MIGHT STAY AT THAT LEVEL
FOR A REALLY LONG TIME.
MY FIRST-ON AIR JOB WAS AT WHAT
IS NOW OMNI TELEVISION AND THAT
WAS KNOWN TO PEOPLE IN TORONTO
AND ONTARIO AS THE MULTICULTURAL
STATION.
IN FACT I WAS IN ENGLISH
PROGRAMMING.
I USED TO DO INTERSTITIALS.
WHEN PEOPLE WOULD HEAR I WAS
AT... IT WAS ALMOST LIKE, I'M A
HOST.
OH, WHERE?
AT OMNI.
IT WAS ALMOST LIKE THEY WOULD...
OH, YEAH.
THAT MAKES SENSE.
I ALWAYS GOT THAT REACTION.
DO YOU HOST A CHINESE SHOW?
AND I WAS LIKE, NO.

Nam says THAT'S ANOTHER
QUESTION I WAS WONDERING.
ARE NICHE NETWORKS HELPFUL OR HURTFUL?

Pay says I THINK THEY ARE
HELPFUL IN THE SENSE THAT
THEY'RE SORT OF DISAPPEARING
BECAUSE NOW PEOPLE CAN GO ONLINE
AND FIND NEWS FROM BACK HOME.
BUT I DO THINK IT GIVES PEOPLE
WHO HAVE THE LANGUAGE SKILLS AND
THAT BACKGROUND AN OPPORTUNITY
TO KEEP THEIR SKILLS UP BECAUSE
WHAT HAPPENED AT OMNI WAS THAT
THE PEOPLE THAT WERE HIRED ON
THE DIVERSITY SHOWS WERE FLUENT
IN THE LANGUAGE, SPEAKING,
WRITING, AND THEY COULD CONNECT
WITH THE COMMUNITY.
I ABSOLUTELY THINK THEY ARE VERY
ESSENTIAL.
IF SOMEONE, LET'S SAY, WAS, YOU
KNOW, HOSTING THE PORTUGUESE
SHOW BUT THOUGHT I WANT TO
BRANCH OFF INTO AN ENGLISH
NETWORK MAINSTREAM, SHE MIGHT
HAVE A CHALLENGE THERE.

Camille says MY HUSBAND
AND I STARTED AN ONLINE MAGAZINE.
I WORK WITH LOADS OF YOUNG
WRITERS, YOUNG BLACK WRITERS WHO
WILL COME AND GIVE ME AMAZING
STORIES.
I'VE ALSO BEEN ABLE TO HELP THEM
NETWORK IN OTHER AREAS, AND SO
WHERE THEY DON'T HAVE THAT
SOCIAL CAPITAL THAT MAYBE ONE OF
THEIR PEERS HAD IN SCHOOL, THEY
CAN USE ME AS SOCIAL CAPITAL AND
I CAN INTRODUCE THEM TO SOMEBODY
WHO CAN GIVE THEM A JOB AT THE
TORONTO STAR OR CityTV OR
WHATEVER.
IT'S IMPORTANT JUST FOR THAT.

Nam says TRACY, WHAT WAS IT
LIKE WHEN YOU FIRST BECAME THE
HOST OF CITYLINE AND YOU WERE
THE FIRST BLACK WOMAN TO DO IT?

Tracy says YEAH.
I'M KIND OF THE FOURTH HOST
BECAUSE THERE WAS ONE EARLY IN
THE BEGINNING, EVEN BEFORE DINI
PETTY, BEFORE IT WAS CITYLINE,
IT WAS INTERESTING.

A picture shows Dini Petty in her fifties, posing with a smile. She has wavy blond hair to her shoulders and side-swept bangs.

Tracy continues I WAS OBVIOUSLY FACING A HUGE
OBSTACLE, WHICH WAS NOT
INSURMOUNTABLE AS WE SEE 8 YEARS
LATER, EVERYTHING HAS GONE WELL.
BUT STEPPING INTO THE SHOES OF A
HOST THAT, YOU KNOW, IS PROBABLY
MY ANTITHESIS.
I WAS YOUNG, BLACK WOMAN, JUST
HAD TWO KIDS.
YOU KNOW, KIND OF FUNKY, NEWS
BACKGROUND.
YEAH, MARILYN.
MARILYN, LOVED.
19 YEARS.
THAT IS PROBABLY UNPRECEDENTED
IN CANADA FOR A HOST TO HAVE
THAT LONG A RUN.
HERE I AM COMING IN, I'M NEW TO
LIFESTYLE TELEVISION WITH A NEWS
BACKGROUND, AND CANADIANS DO NOT
LIKE CHANGE.
I UNDERSTAND THAT VERY, VERY
CLEARLY.
I HAD BLINDERS ON AND I THINK
I'M HAPPY I FACED IT THAT WAY.

Nam says WHEN YOU SAY THEY
DON'T LIKE CHANGE, DOES THAT
MEAN THERE WAS A NEGATIVE
RESPONSE TO YOU BECOMING THE HOST?

Tracy says YOU KNOW, I
FELT THAT THERE WAS NEGATIVITY.
I DIDN'T SEEK IT OUT AND I
DIDN'T LOOK FOR IT AND I DIDN'T
GOOGLE MY NAME, BUT I KNEW IT
WAS HAPPENING BECAUSE PEOPLE
WOULD SAY, OH, THEY'RE BEING SO
HARSH.
WHICH IS SO GOOD!
LA LA LA LA.

Nam says I DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT.

Tracy says BECAUSE I
CAN'T HAVE THAT AND FEEL THAT
AND CONSUME THAT AND WALK INTO A
STUDIO EVERY DAY WITH 75 PEOPLE
LOOKING AT ME AND HAVE ANY SENSE
OF AUTHORITY OR CONFIDENCE IF
THIS IS WHAT'S RATTLING AROUND
IN MY HEAD.
SO TRYING NOT TO, YOU KNOW, GET
MYSELF SHOOK, IT'S SOMETHING I
COMPLETELY IGNORED.
I FEEL LIKE IT WOULD HAVE BEEN
DEBILITATING.
AND I FELT THAT THERE WERE A LOT
OF PEOPLE THAT HAD A MAJOR
PROBLEM WITH THE CHANGE AND I
WOULD GET LETTERS, MOSTLY FROM
MORE MATURE VIEWERS WHO DIDN'T
HAVE ACCESS TO TECHNOLOGY, AND I
WOULD e-mail PEOPLE BACK AND I
WOULD CALL PEOPLE.
PEOPLE WHO SAID TERRIBLE,
TERRIBLE THINGS ABOUT ME AND
WOULD WRITE ME LETTERS AND I
WOULD CALL THEM.

Nam says DID YOU CATCH THEM OFF-GUARD?

Tracy says YES.
I THOUGHT YOU WERE GOING TO ASK
IF I CUT THEM OFF.

[Laughter]

Tracy says I WOULD CALL THEM UP.
HIGH, FRANCES, WHO IS THIS?
TRACY MOORE, HOST OF CITYLINE.
SILENCE.
SHE IS CALLING MY HOUSE.
OH, MY GOODNESS.
I KNOW YOU'VE HAD SOME ISSUES
WITH ME AND I'M A
WORK-IN-PROGRESS, I'M NEW, I'M
SO HAPPY TO HAVE THIS ROLE, I
TAKE IT SERIOUSLY, YOU'RE LOYAL,
I LOVE THAT YOU CARE.
COME DOWN, WATCH IT, LOVE IT.
THOSE ARE MY BIGGEST FANS NOW.
THAT'S HOW I HANDLED THE
TRANSITION: PERSON BY PERSON.

Nam says EMAN, I WOULD LIKE TO
ASK YOU THIS QUESTION BUT I WANT
TO PRESENT IT TO YOU, PAY, AFTERWARDS.
DO YOU EVER WORRY YOU WERE HIRED
BECAUSE OF THE WAY YOU LOOK?

The caption changes to "Eman Bare, @EmanIdilBare"
Then, it changes again to "Connect with us: TVO.org, YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter; @theagenda"

Eman says NO.
ACTUALLY, LIKE, IT'S NEVER EVEN
REALLY A THOUGHT.
I HAD A FORMER CLASSMATE ASK ME,
BECAUSE WE APPLIED FOR THE SAME
POSITION, SHE ASKED ME IF I
THOUGHT I GOT IT BECAUSE I WAS A
MINORITY AND THAT'S THE FIRST
TIME I THOUGHT OF IT LIKE THAT.
I'VE NEVER FELT THAT WAY.
I'VE ALWAYS BEEN REALLY, REALLY
SUPPORTED.
I COULDN'T BE HAPPIER TO BE IN
THE NEWSROOM I'M IN RIGHT NOW.

Nam says AND PAY?

The caption changes to "Pay Chen, @PayChen"

Pay says I WOULD SAY... I
KNOW I'VE OFTEN FELT I DIDN'T
GET THE JOB BECAUSE OF HOW I
LOOKED AND THAT WOULD BE
BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS A
PERIOD OF TIME WHERE LIKE ASIANS
ARE REALLY POPPING UP EVERYWHERE
ON ALL THE MAJOR NETWORKS AND
THE BIG SHOWS.
OH, THIS IS FANTASTIC FOR US.
I COULDN'T APPLY TO SOMETHING IF
THERE WAS ALREADY AN ASIAN
THERE.
QUOTA FILLED.
I WOULDN'T GET A CALL.
I WAS NEW, RIGHT?
WHEN SHOWS AND MAYBE PEOPLE
MAKING DECISIONS WERE REALIZING
LET'S REFLECT OUR AUDIENCE A
LITTLE BIT BETTER, IT REALLY
FELT LIKE, MAYBE NOT TWO BLACK
PEOPLE BUT MAYBE WE COULD HAVE
THE BLACK WOMAN AND MAYBE AN
ASIAN GUY AND MAYBE ANOTHER
ETHNICITY.
IT WAS ALMOST LIKE KIND OF
TRYING TOO HARD TO, YOU KNOW,
LET'S MAKE SURE WE REPRESENT
EVERYONE A LITTLE BIT INSTEAD OF
SAYING, BUT IS SHE GREAT FOR THE
JOB?
GREAT.
IS CAMILLE GREAT WITH TRACY?
WHY CAN'T THEY BE TOGETHER?
WHAT WOULD HAPPEN WAS, YOU KNOW,
I'D GET COMMENTS LIKE, WELL,
PEOPLE WILL THINK IT'S AN ETHNIC
SHOW.
IS THAT A BAD THING?
I DON'T KNOW I HAD EVER BEEN
HIRED BECAUSE I WAS ASIAN.
I DID GET MY FIRST ON-AIR JOB AT
A MULTICULTURAL STATION, SO THAT
WAS PROBABLY THE ONLY TIME I
THOUGHT, THIS IS GOING TO...
THIS MIGHT HELP, YOU KNOW, MIGHT
BE GOOD FOR ME.
AND, YOU KNOW, BUT ALSO I WAS
HIRED... I WAS ASKED TO HOST
"BREAKFAST TELEVISION" IN
WINNIPEG, AND MY FIRST THOUGHT
WAS, DO THEY KNOW I'M ASIAN?
IT IS NOT THE BULK OF THE
POPULATION THERE BY ANY MEANS.
BUT BY THE SAME TOKEN I THOUGHT,
I HAD ALREADY WORKED IN T.V. FOR
QUITE A WHILE AND I THOUGHT,
OKAY, YOU'RE ASKING ME BECAUSE
YOU THINK I'M RIGHT FOR THE JOB.
YOU'RE NOT LOOKING AT ME GOING,
WE DON'T HAVE THAT MANY ASIAN
PEOPLE HERE OR IN THE BROAD
SPECTRUM ANYWAY.
YEAH, DEFINITELY, YOU KNOW,
GOING THROUGH, THERE WERE TIMES
WHEN I WAS LIKE, OH, THERE'S
ALREADY AN ASIAN ON THAT SHOW.
CROSS THAT ONE OFF THE LIST.

[Laughter]

Tracy says I DEFINITELY
THINK I'VE GOTTEN JOBS BECAUSE
OF THE WAY I LOOK.
FOR SURE.
I THINK THAT IF THERE WAS A
TOKEN BLACK WOMAN, I WANTED TO
BE HER.
[Laughter]
JUST LET ME IN.
I DON'T CARE.

Nam says WHAT PAY WAS SAYING,
IF YOU HAD SEEN A BLACK WOMAN ON
THE NETWORK...

Tracy says GO FOR IT.
I KNOW THERE WAS A BLACK WOMAN
WHO HAD LEFT CityTV JUST
BEFORE I CAME IN.
I WILL FILL THAT SPOT AND MAKE
IT MY OWN.
ON THE OTHER SIDE I THINK
THERE'S AN ARGUMENT TO BE MADE
FOR SHADISM.
IF WE UNPACK THE BAG OF
PRIVILEGES I'M BEING OFFERED
POSITIONS BECAUSE I AM LIGHTER
COMPLEXIONED.
I DON'T SEE A LOT OF MY SISTERS
WITH DARKER SKIN GETTING THE
SAME VISIBILITY I GET ON AIR.

Nam says I AGREE WITH THAT.
I GREW UP IN UGANDA AND IT
WASN'T VERY GOOD FOR ME THERE,
BUT WHEN... I THINK I WAS 17
YEARS OLD IN LONDON, ONTARIO,
AND AT THE TIME I DIDN'T KNOW
WHAT THE... I REALIZED I HAD AN
EASIER TIME IN THE SENSE OF
GETTING A PART-TIME JOB THAT MY
COUSINS OR BROTHERS OR ANYONE IN
MY FAMILY WHO WAS
DARKER-SKINNED.
IS SHADISM STILL SOMETHING THAT
WE HAVE TO CONTEND WITH?

Tracy says I THINK SO.

Pay says SOUTH ASIAN AND
THE FRIENDS WHO ARE VERY
DARK-SKINNED, THEY HAVE A HARDER
TIME.
SOMEONE CAN LOOK AT ME AND SAY,
NO, YOU'RE WRONG.
I DO NOT THINK I'M WRONG.
I HAVE FRIENDS OF ALL SHADES AND
I CAN TELL YOU THAT THE ONES WHO
ARE A LITTLE BIT LIGHTER...
PEOPLE EVEN SAY TO ME YOU LOOK
MIXED.
YOU DON'T LOOK ASIAN.

Tracy says LIKE IT'S A COMPLIMENT.

Pay says DO I SAY THANK YOU?
EXACTLY.
THAT I'M MAYBE PART ASIAN AND
ASIAN-ISH.
YOU ARE ASIAN-ISH, THEREFORE I
SEE WHY YOU'RE ON T.V.

Nam says EMAN, DO YOU HAVE
ANYTHING TO ADD TO THAT?

The caption changes to "Success equals whitewashing?"

Eman says I DEFINITELY
THINK THERE IS SOMETHING TO BE
SAID ABOUT SHADISM, JUST LIKE
THE APPEARANCE, RIGHT?
THIS MORNING I WAS THINKING
ABOUT HAIR TEXTURES.
WHAT TYPE OF HAIR TEXTURES ARE
ALLOWED TO BE ON T.V.?
WHAT'S SEEN AS PROFESSIONAL...
IT'S A LITTLE RACIST WHEN YOU
SEE... IF I DIDN'T WEAR A HIJAB
AND HAD A NATURAL AFRO, WOULD
THAT HAVE BEEN ACCEPTABLE?
I'VE NEVER HAD TO ASK THAT, I'VE
BEEN COVERING MY HAIR SINCE I
WAS 12. SHADISM, I DEFINITELY
THINK IT EXISTS.
IT'S REALLY HARD FOR ME TO
COMPARE BECAUSE I AM A DARKER
SKINNED WOMAN BUT I'VE ALSO
NEVER HAD RELATIVELY NEW TO
THESE CONVERSATIONS AND I'VE
NEVER HAD A CO-WORKER WHO HAS
HAD TO DEAL WITH SIMILAR THINGS.
I'VE GENERALLY BEEN LIKE THE
ONLY BLACK PERSON IN THE
NEWSROOM AND THAT TYPE OF THING.

Camille says WE COULD DO
AN ENTIRE SHOW ON HAIR.
WHEN I FIRST STARTED IN THE
INDUSTRY, I WAS STARTED ON AIR,
AND I WAS OBSESSED WITH MAKING
MY HAIR LONG AND STRAIGHT.
I WOULD SPEND HUNDREDS OF
DOLLARS I DIDN'T HAVE ON WEAVES
TO MAKE MY HAIR... I THOUGHT
WHEN I LOOKED OUT, THAT IS WHAT
IT WAS.
NUMBER ONE...

Nam says IT ANYONE TELL YOU
STRAIGHTEN YOUR HAIR?

The caption changes to "Camille Dundas, @CamilleDundas"

Camille says NO.
I COULD SEE.
YOU JUST GROW UP AND YOU LOOK
AND, NUMBER ONE, THERE'S NOT A
LOT OF BLACK WOMEN.
TWO, THE WOMEN WHO WERE ON THERE
LOOK A CERTAIN WAY.
I THOUGHT FOR ME TO MAKE IT IN
THE BUSINESS, THIS IS HOW I HAVE
TO LOOK.
I HAD TO LET THAT GO AND LET GO
OF EVEN WANTING TO CONTINUE
PUSHING THE EFFORT TO BE ON AIR.
IT WASN'T WORTH IT TO ME.

Nam says I'M LUCKY IN A SENSE.
WHEN I STARTED AT MUCH MUSIC,
THEY LIKED IT.
DENISE WAS YOU ARE WHO YOU ARE
AND WE WANT TO REPRESENT THAT.
I DON'T WANT TO AGE MYSELF, THAT
WAS LIKE... 15 YEARS?
I WANTED TO BRING UP SOMETHING
THAT HAPPENED WITH YOU.
THE
GLOBE AND MAIL
DID A FEATURE
ON TRACY FROM CTV'S "THE
SOCIAL," AND, HOWEVER, THEY HAD
A PICTURE OF YOU.

A picture of a newspaper article pops up on screen. It features a caricature of Tracy's face. Then, several pictures of Tracy flash by.

Tracy says YES, THEY DID.
I COULDN'T BELIEVE IT. I MAKE
A JOKE OF IT ALL THE TIME.
EVEN MY HUSBAND WILL BE OUT AND
PEOPLE WILL BE SAYING, OH, HOW
ARE THE TWINS?
AND HE'S LIKE, I DON'T HAVE
TWINS.
AND THEY'RE LIKE, NO, YOU DO.
HOW ARE THEY?
THEY'RE CONVINCED TRACY MELCHOR
IS HIS WIFE.
LISTEN, I GET IT.
THERE ARE TWO TRACYS.
OUR LAST NAMES START WITH "M."
WE'RE ON NATIONAL TELEVISION.
IT'S TOO MUCH.
JUST TOO MUCH.
IT'S REALLY DIFFICULT FOR PEOPLE
TO MAKE THE DISTINCTION.
YOU KNOW, WHEN I SAW A
NEWSPAPER, AS REPUTABLE AS
THE
GLOBE AND MAIL MAKE SUCH A
MISTAKE WHEN YOU CAN GOOGLE, YOU
CAN DO ALL OF THESE THINGS IN
THIS MODERN SOCIETY TO LOOK AT
WHO YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT BUT
THEY MADE THE ASSUMPTION BECAUSE
IT WAS SO EASY FOR THEM TO
BELIEVE WE ARE ONE WOMAN.

Nam says AND IT GOES THROUGH
SEVERAL PEOPLE, IT'S NOT JUST
ONE PEOPLE.

Tracy says SEVERAL PEOPLE
HAD TO VET AND OKAY THAT TO MAKE
IT ACTUALLY TO PUBLICATION.
I WAS KIND OF FLOORED.
AM I INSULTED BY IT?
NO.
I THINK IT'S ABSOLUTELY
HILARIOUS AT THIS POINT.
I FELT BAD FOR TRACY BECAUSE
THIS WAS A PROFILE ON HER THAT
WAS REALLY GOOD NATIONAL
COVERAGE FOR HER AND MY FACE GOT
IN THERE.
SO I THINK IT HAPPENS ALL THE
TIME.
I DON'T SPEND A LOT OF TIME
WORRYING ABOUT IT.
BUT IT'S THE NORM.

Nam says APPARENTLY SOMETHING
CALLED CROSS-RACIAL EFFECT.

Camille says I THINK
IT'S ONE OF THOSE TERMS PEOPLE
USE TO HIDE THEIR IGNORANCE AND
RACISM.
I MEAN, I LOVE WHERE I WORK AND
THE CORE PEOPLE WHO I WORK WITH,
THEY ARE AWESOME AND AMAZING.
WE GET A LOT OF FREELANCE PEOPLE
COMING IN AND A LOT OF TIME... I
GET THAT BEFORE.
THERE ARE TWO OF US.
AND WE LOOK NOTHING ALIKE.

Nam says BUT IN THEIR MIND IT'S
TWO BLACK GIRLS...

Camille says THEY MIX US
UP ALL THE TIME.
LAST YEAR I WAS PREGNANT AND
SOMEONE CONGRATULATED THE OTHER
PERSON WHO WAS CLEARLY NOT
PREGNANT.
THEY'RE LIKE, OH, I HEARD THAT
YOU HAVE... SHE'S LIKE, NO,
THAT'S CAMILLE.
IT'S THE OTHER ONE.

Nam says PAY, HAS THAT HAPPENED
TO YOU, GETTING CONFUSED WITH
SOMEBODY ELSE?

Pay says YES.
I GET CONFUSED... LIKE I SAID,
WHEN WE HAD THE LITTLE ASIAN
BOOM ON T.V. LIKE A DECADE AGO.

Nam says THE GOOD OLD DAYS.

Several pictures of Pay flash by showing different styles of hair and clothing.

Pay says THE ASIAN BOOM, I
GET STOPPED ALL THE TIME, YOU
KNOW, FOR SOOK YIN LEE HAS BEEN
RECENT, HANNAH SUNG, TANIA KIM.
WE ALL ROLL OUR EYES.
IT'S INTERCHANGEABLE.
IT'S KIND OF FUNNY BUT WHAT
PEOPLE WILL SAY TO ME A LOT,
ONCE YOU CORRECT THE MISTAKE,
OH, MY GOD, YOU GUYS LOOK
EXACTLY ALIKE.
DO YOU KNOW WHAT SHE LOOKS LIKE?
YEAH, I DO KNOW WHAT SHE LOOKS
LIKE AND IT'S NOT LIKE ME.
IT'S OFTEN A SOCIAL MEDIA POST.
LIKE YOU SAID, IT'S FUNNY
BECAUSE YOU KIND OF HAVE TO ROLL
WITH IT.
I'M NOT GOING TO BE OFFENDED BY
IT.
SOMETIMES I FEEL BAD FOR THE
OTHER WOMEN BECAUSE I THINK...
DID SOMEONE MISTAKEN HER?
OH, POOR THING.

[Laughter]

Nam says DO YOU EVER WORRIED
THAT ALL YOU'LL BE ASSIGNED IS
BLACK OR MUSLIM STORIES OR EVEN
JUST WOMEN STORIES?
EMAN, I CAN START WITH YOU.

The caption changes to "Towards representation."

Eman says NO, I DON'T
THINK SO.
I THINK THAT... I MEAN, MY
FRIEND AND I WERE HAVING A
CONVERSATION ABOUT THIS AND
PEOPLE ASKED ME IF WE FEEL WEIRD
COVERING CERTAIN STORIES.
THERE'S DEFINITELY AN IMPORTANT
PART OF REMOVING YOURSELF ALL
THE OTHER IDENTITIES THAT GO
WITH YOU.
NO ONE IS EVER JUST A
JOURNALIST.
EVERYONE ALWAYS HAS LABELS
ATTACHED TO THEM.
IT'S REALIZING WHEN YOU ARE
COVERING A STORY YOU ARE JUST A
JOURNALIST.
I THINK TO SAY THAT YOU
SHOULDN'T BE COVERING A STORY
THAT TIES IN ONE OF YOUR
IDENTITIES OR THAT YOU SHOULD
ONLY BE COVERING A STORY THAT
COVERS YOUR IDENTITY IS
INSULTING TO YOUR BEING A GOOD
JOURNALIST.
ONE EXAMPLE IS JANELLE WAS
COVERING A STORY, IT WAS EASTER
AND SHE IS VISIBLY MUSLIM AND
PEOPLE ASKED IF IT WOULD BE
WEIRD. I SAID WHY WOULD IT BE
WORD? I COVER SPORTS STORIES
AND I DON'T WATCH SPORTS.
I DON'T THINK... I'VE NEVER FELT
THAT WAY BUT I DON'T WORRY ABOUT
THAT ALSO BECAUSE I'M INTERESTED
IN HUMAN STORIES AND AS LONG AS
I'M TELLING STORIES ABOUT OTHER
HUMAN BEINGS, I'M HAPPY.

Nam says CAMILLE?

Camille says IN MY ROLE
I DON'T GET ASSIGNED STORIES, I
PITCH STORIES.
BUT BEFORE, WHEN I FIRST STARTED
IN THE INDUSTRY, IT WAS
SOMETHING THAT I THOUGHT ABOUT
BUT IT'S A CHANGE OF MIND SET.
AND THE MOMENT THAT I STOPPED
WORRYING ABOUT HOW PEOPLE ARE
GOING TO SEE ME, THEN I FELT
FREER.
AND SO I FELT CONFIDENT TO TAKE
ON THAT ROLE OF THE PERSON WHO
WILL ALWAYS PITCH A BLACK STORY
IF IT'S A GOOD ONE AND YOU THINK
IT'S A BLACK STORY, I DON'T
CARE, IT'S A GREAT STORY, IT'S A
CANADIAN STORY, SO I'M GOING TO
PITCH IT.
I DON'T ONLY CARE ABOUT STORIES
FROM MY COMMUNITY.
BUT I'M SURROUNDED BY IT BECAUSE
I'M IMMERSED IN MY COMMUNITY,
RIGHT?
BUT I HAVE COME ACROSS
COLLEAGUES WHO REJECT THAT AND
WILL SAY, NO, NO, NO, THAT'S
GOING TO LIMIT MY CAREER, I'M
NOT GOING TO PITCH THOSE STORIES
BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO BE SEEN
AS THAT PERSON.
I'M THE OPPOSITE.
IF YOU WANT TO BE LIKE THAT,
FINE.
I KNOW WHO I AM AND THAT'S ALL
THAT MATTERS.

Nam says DO YOU THINK A WHITE
REPORTER CAN COVER BLACK LIVES
MATTER BETTER THAN YOU CAN?

Camille says OH, MAN.

Tracy says OR
DIFFERENTLY?
I DISAGREE WITH EMAN.
I THINK YOU DO BRING YOUR
PERSPECTIVE.
I THINK THE IDEA OF JOURNALISTS
BEING COMPLETELY OBJECTIVE IS
COMPLETELY ERRONEOUS.
I THINK WE ALL BRING OUR
BACKGROUNDS AND OUR BIASES TO A
STORY.
SO I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S BETTER
THAN, BUT IT'LL BE DIFFERENT.

Camille says I DON'T
THINK THEY SHOULD NOT SEND A
WHITE JOURNALIST TO A BLACK
LIVES MATTER PROTEST.
THEY CAN COVER IT DIFFERENTLY.
IT'S NOT BETTER.
IT'S DIFFERENT.
FRANKLY, IT'S MORE LIKELY THAT
THE BLACK REPORTER WILL KNOW
WHAT TO SAY AND WHAT NOT TO SAY,
MORE IMPORTANTLY, AND THAT YOU
DON'T END UP WITH EGG ON YOUR
FACE AS A NETWORK, WHICH HAS
HAPPENED MANY TIMES.
I DON'T THINK IT'S BETTER.
I THINK IT IS DIFFERENT.

Nam says PAY?

Pay says I AGREE WITH WHAT
YOU'RE SAYING.
THERE IS AN ELEMENT... FOR SOME
REASON AROUND CHINESE NEW YEAR,
WHICH... EVERYONE COMES UP TO ME
GUNG HEI FAT CHOY.
I DON'T SPEAK CANTONESE BUT I
KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO SAY
AND THAT'S FROM THE MANDARIN
COMMERCIAL.
TO ME IT'S FUNNY.
I'M NOT EASILY OFFENDED.
IT'S A SMIRKY THING.
AT THE SAME TIME, A LOT OF
PEOPLE KNOW THAT MY FAMILY IS
MANDARIN-SPEAKING, NOT CANTONESE
SPEAKING, AND IT'S COMPLETELY
DIFFERENT.
IT'S TWO DIFFERENT LANGUAGES.
I UNDERSTAND THAT IS SOMETHING
THAT NOT EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS OR
KNOWS AND THAT THE GESTURE IS...
IT'S A KIND GESTURE.
IT'S THOUGHTFUL.
THEIR INTENTION IS GOOD.
SO IT'S JUST A MATTER OF
SAYING... OF MAYBE CORRECTING,
YOU KNOW, POLITELY, OH, THAT'S
NICE.
THAT'S ACTUALLY CANTONESE, EVEN
THOUGH THE RESTAURANT SAYS MANDARIN.
BIG BEEF OF MIND.
IT'S VERY CONFUSING FOR PEOPLE.
AROUND THAT TIME OF YEAR, I GET
ASKED TO DO A LOT OF
MULTICULTURAL INTERVIEWS.
YOU KNOW, ENGLISH IS MY FIRST
LANGUAGE.
SO I USUALLY HAVE TO SAY MY
MANDARIN IS SO BROKEN THAT IT
WOULD BE UNCOMFORTABLE, BUT...
OR TO TALK ABOUT THE HOLIDAY
AND... I LIKE THAT I CAN
REPRESENT IT.
I HAVE NO PROBLEM.
IF I WAS TO SEE, YOU KNOW, A
YOUNG BLOND PERSON TALKING ABOUT
CHINESE NEW YEAR, I MIGHT KIND
OF GO, WELL, THERE COULD HAVE
BEEN SOMEONE WHO COULD HAVE DONE
IT BETTER, BUT LIKE YOU SAID,
MAYBE SHE'LL DO IT DIFFERENTLY.

Camille says BLACK
HISTORY MONTH IS MY LEAST
FAVOURITE TIME OF THE YEAR TO BE
A JOURNALIST IN THE INDUSTRY.

Nam says WHY?

Camille says IT BRINGS
ON SO MUCH ANXIETY FOR ME.
ON THE ONE HAND IT'S GREAT
BECAUSE YOU'RE SEEING ALL THESE
BLACK PEOPLE GETTING INTERVIEWED
AND THEN YOU'RE LIKE, THEN IT'S
GOING TO COME TO AN END.

Nam says WHY CAN'T THEY TALK
THROUGHOUT THE YEAR?

Camille says THIS IS THE
THING.
I'M PITCHING THESE STORIES AND
THINK, GREAT, WE'RE DOING
AWESOME AND CTV DOES GREAT WORK.
AND MY DREAM IS JUST TO BE ABLE
TO SEE DIFFERENT COLOURS OF
PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT THINGS THAT
DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE TO DO
WITH THEIR COLOUR, YOU KNOW WHAT
I MEAN?
THAT'S ALL.

Nam says FINALLY, SOLUTIONS.
TRACY, WHAT CAN BE DONE TO
INCREASE THE AMOUNT OF VISIBLE
JOURNALISTS IN THE MEDIA?

Tracy says CAMILLE SORT
OF HIT ON IT BEFORE WITH THE
DIVERSITY HIRES AND LEGISLATION.
WHEN WE LOOK AT THE WOMEN'S
MOVEMENT, BECAUSE WOMEN ARE
ACTUALLY GETTING THERE AND IT'S
BEEN A LONG TIME BUT I'M SEEING
MORE OF MY BOSSES ARE WOMEN THAN
THEY ARE BLACK.
THEY'RE MOVING UP THE LADDER.
AND I FEEL LIKE IT HAS TO BE
VERY INTENTIONAL AND I KNOW
PEOPLE REALLY BALK AT THE IDEA.
IF WE DON'T HAVE DIVERSITY
LEGISLATION, IT'S NOT GOING TO
HAPPEN.
CAMILLE WOULDN'T BE IN HER
POSITION, MY HUSBAND WOULDN'T
HAVE GOTTEN ONE OF THE POSITIONS
HE GOT WITH CBC BECAUSE THEY
WERE CHECKING THE BOXES.
WE HAVE TO BE INTENTIONAL ABOUT
IT.
IT DOESN'T MEAN THOSE PEOPLE WHO
ARE GETTING THROUGH THE DOOR ARE
ANY LESS ABLE TO DO THAT JOB.
RIGHT NOW WE'RE IN A SITUATION
WHERE PEOPLE ARE GETTING IN THAT
ARE NOT NECESSARILY THE BEST
CANDIDATES FOR THE JOBS BUT THEY
HAVE THE BEST CONNECTIONS.
SO LET'S START PUSHING FORWARD
SOME LEGISLATION AND BE VERY
INTENTIONAL ABOUT IT TO FIX THE
PROBLEM.

Nam says CAMILLE?

Camille says I AGREE 100 .
IT HAS TO BE INTENTIONAL AND
IT'S GOING TO FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE
FOR EVERYONE ON BOTH SIDES.
LIKE I SAID, IT WAS
UNCOMFORTABLE FOR ME BECAUSE I
DIDN'T KNOW.
YOU HAVE TO FORCE PEOPLE OUT OF
THEIR COMFORT ZONE.
IT'S THE SAME THING AS I WAS
SAYING BEFORE, PEOPLE GO TO WHAT
THEY KNOW, IT'S EASY FOR THEM.
IT'S KIND OF LAZY.
WE HAVE TO FORCE PEOPLE NOT TO
DO THAT.

The caption changes to "Producer: Sandra Gionas, @sandragionas; Student intern: Radiyah Chowdhury."

Nam says THANK YOU FOR JOINING
US FROM REGINA, EMAN.
IT'S BEEN A PLEASURE.
AND LADIES, TRACY, CAMILLE, AND
PAY, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

says YOU'RE WELCOME.
THANKS FOR HAVING US.

Watch: Women, Diversity and Media