Transcript: Police Bias Explained | Oct 22, 2015

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, lilac shirt, and matching striped tie. Behind him, a wall screen reads “The Agenda, with Steve Paikin.”

Steve says THE POLICE SHOOTING OF
MICHAEL BROWN IN FERGUSON,
MISSOURI.
THE DEATH WHILE IN POLICE
CUSTODY OF FREDDIE GRAY IN
BALTIMORE, MARYLAND.
REPEATED STORIES OF HARASSMENT
AND CARDING WITHIN OUR OWN
PROVINCE'S BORDERS.
THESE EVENTS SHINE A LIGHT ON
ALLEGATIONS OF RACIAL BIAS
WITHIN THE RANKS OF NORTH
AMERICAN POLICE DEPARTMENTS.
JOINING US NOW FOR MORE ON THESE
ALLEGATIONS, AND STEPS BEING
TAKEN TO CHANGE THIS SO-CALLED
CULTURE OF BIAS:
WE WELCOME
IN LAS VEGAS, NEVADA:
MATT McCarthy, A CAPTAIN IN THE
LAS VEGAS METROPOLITAN POLICE
DEPARTMENT;

McCarthy is in his forties, bald and clean-shaven. He’s wearing glasses and a beige police uniform.

Steve continues AND WITH US IN STUDIO:
SHAKIL CHOUDHURY, AUTHOR OF
“DEEP DIVERSITY: OVERCOMING US
vs. THEM”;

Shakil is in his late thirties, clean-shaven, with tousled wavy black hair. He’s wearing glasses, a gray three-piece suit, and a blue shirt.
A picture of his book appears briefly on screen. The cover is dark blue.

Steve continues AND SAN GREWAL, URBAN AFFAIRS
REPORTER FOR THE
TORONTO STAR.

San is in his forties, with short gray hair and a goatee. He’s wearing a light gray suit and a pale blue shirt.

Steve continues CAPTAIN McCarthy, WE'RE HAPPY
TOO WELCOME YOU -- TO WELCOME
YOU TO THE BROADCAST, TO OUR
FRIENDS DOWN IN THE WEST OF THE
UNITED STATES, AND TO YOU TOO,
SAN AND SHAKIL.
GOOD TO HAVE YOU BACK WITH US AS
WELL.
SHAKIL, I'M ACTUALLY GOING TO
START WITH YOU, BECAUSE IN YOUR
BOOK YOU DO TALK, OBVIOUSLY,
ABOUT RACIAL PROFILING.
YOU LISTED A NUMBER OF CASES IN
WHICH PEOPLE OF COLOUR HAVE DIED
AT THE HANDS OF WHITE POLICE
OFFICERS, AND ABOUT THAT YOU
WROTE THE FOLLOWING...

A quote appears on screen, under the title “J.J. Harper, Rodney King...” The quote reads “These are just a handful of cases from an enormous pile of evidence that racial profiling exists, in the criminal justice system generally and in policing specifically. In Canada alone, over fifteen reports since the 1970s have shown this. It’s a topic that’s been studied to death for more than forty years. Yet as a public conversation, it’s a train wreck.”
Quoted from Shakil Choudhury, “Deep Diversity” (2015).

Steve says LET US UNDERSTAND
WHAT YOU MEAN BY “IT'S A TRAIN
WRECK.”

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Shakil Choudhury. Author ‘Deep diversity.’"
Then, it changes to “Police bias explained. Show me your profile.”

Shakil says WELL,
YOU'VE GOT MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ON
ONE SIDE OF THE EQUATION SAYING,
LOOK, WE'RE AFFECTED BY RACISM.
IT HURTS US.
IT HURTS US IN OUR CHANCES OF
EMPLOYMENT, OUR ABILITY TO GET
HOUSING, AND WE'RE SEVERELY
BEING MISTREATED IN THE CRIMINAL
JUSTICE SYSTEM.
AND THIS SIDE OF THE EQUATION
SAYING RACISM EXISTS.
WE KNOW IT EXISTS.
AND ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE
EQUATION YOU HAVE MILLIONS OF
PEOPLE GOING -- WHO ARE NOT --
WHO ARE NOT RACIAL MINORITIES OR
ABORIGINAL, WHITE PEOPLE SAYING,
REALLY?
ARE YOU SURE?
ARE YOU SURE IT WASN'T SOMETHING
YOU DID?
ARE YOU SURE IT WASN'T SOMETHING
YOU SAID OR PART OF YOUR
BEHAVIOUR?
AND SO THAT'S WHAT I THINK IS
THE TRAIN WRECK, IS THAT THERE'S
THIS GULF, THIS BIG DIVIDE
BETWEEN EXPERIENCES PEOPLE ARE
HAVING AND EXPERIENCES THAT
OTHER PEOPLE AREN'T SEEING.

Steve says TWO DIFFERENT
REALITIES AND THE SIDES CAN'T
TALK TO EACH OTHER OR WON'T TALK
TO EACH OTHER OR WHAT?

Shakil says I THINK
IT'S HARD TO TALK ABOUT BECAUSE
IT'S A VERY PAINFUL ISSUE
BECAUSE IT MEANS THERE'S
PERPETRATORS AND VICTIMS, AND
THAT'S A DYNAMIC THAT
AUTOMATICALLY OUR BRAINS
IMMEDIATELY GO TO THIS PLACE OF,
WELL, AM I THE PERPETRATOR OR AM
I THE VICTIM?
IT'S A WAY THAT IT'S THERE.
AND I WANT TO BE CLEAR, I'M NOT
TALKING ABOUT 100 PERCENT OF THE
PEOPLE ARE AFFECTED BY RACISM
100 PERCENT OF THE TIME BUT
THERE'S ENOUGH OF A PROBLEM THAT
THERE ARE GAPS, GAPS IN
TREATMENT IN HEALTH CARE,
POLICING, IN EVERY SECTOR THAT'S
EVER BEEN STUDIED IN AND WE HAVE
DECADES OF RESEARCH TO POINT
THIS OUT.

Steve says LET ME GET CAPTAIN
McCarthy INTO THIS DISCUSSION.
CAN YOU START, CAPTAIN
McCarthy, BY TELLING US ABOUT
AN EXPRESSION WE'RE HEARING MORE
ABOUT THESE DAYS: WEAPONS BIAS.
WHAT DO YOU TAKE THAT TO MEAN?

The caption changes to "Matt McCarthy. Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department."

McCarthy says WELL, WE
DON'T REALLY REFER TO IT AS
WEAPONS BIAS HERE IN THE UNITED
STATES.
THAT'S THE FIRST TIME I'VE
ACTUALLY HEARD OF THAT, BUT IT
SEEMS TO FIT.
WE REFER TO IT AS MISTAKE FACT
SHOOTINGS, AT LEAST OUR AGENCY
DOES.
IT'S AN INCIDENT WHERE A SUBJECT
WOULD HAVE WHAT THE OFFICER
PERCEIVES TO BE A FIREARM OR
SOME TYPE OF A WEAPON, WHEN IN
FACT IT COULD BE A CELL PHONE,
IT COULD BE A ROCK, AND THE
MISTAKEN WEAPON, THE OFFICERS
PERCEIVE AS SUCH AND THE
OFFICERS USE, IN MANY CASES,
DEADLY FORCE.
SO THEY MISTAKE THAT ITEM THAT'S
IN THE PERSON'S HAND AS A KNIFE
OR A FIREARM.

Steve says DOES THE OFFICER IN
QUESTION, IF THE OFFICER IS
WHITE, IN YOUR JUDGMENT, IN YOUR
EXPERIENCE, HAVE A KIND OF
IMPLICIT BIAS THAT IF IT'S A
BLACK PERSON WITH A CELL PHONE,
THAT'S MORE TROUBLESOME OR MORE
CONCERNING THAN IF IT'S A WHITE
PERSON WITH A CELL PHONE?

McCarthy says WELL, I
THINK THAT EACH SITUATION IS
TAKEN ON ITS OWN ACCOUNT AND ITS
OWN MERITS.
OFTENTIMES, WHEN WE JUDGE
WHETHER OR NOT AN OFFICER USES
DEADLY FORCE, IT'S IN A SPLIT
SECOND OF TIME.
WE RARELY, AT LEAST IN THE
PUBLIC'S EYE, WE RARELY HEAR
ABOUT ALL THE FACTS THAT LED UP
TO THE ENCOUNTER BEFORE DEADLY
FORCE WAS USED, THAT IS THE
INFORMATION THAT WAS PROVIDED TO
THE OFFICERS.
SO IF WE SIMPLY LOOK AT IT AS A
MATTER OF RACE, I THINK WE'RE
MISSING A VERY BIG PICTURE AS TO
THE ENTIRE CIRCUMSTANCE WITH
THAT PARTICULAR INCIDENT THAT
LED UP TO THE DEADLY FORCE
INCIDENT.
I KNOW THAT THERE IS A LOT OF
DISCUSSION AS TO OFFICERS USING
MORE DEADLY FORCE ON
AFRICAN-AMERICANS, PARTICULARLY
AFRICAN-AMERICAN MALES THAN ON
WHITE MALES, AND I THINK THAT
MIGHT BE THE CASE IN SOME PARTS
OF THE COUNTRY.
BUT I WOULD BE VERY HESITANT TO
SAY THAT THAT IS A UNIVERSAL
PRACTICE WITHIN NORTH AMERICAN
POLICING.

Steve says WELL, IN FACT, I'M
GOING TO GO BACK TO SHAKIL HERE
AND AN EXCERPT FROM YOUR BOOK
WHICH SUGGESTS THIS IS A LOT
MORE COMPLICATED ON RACE THAN A
SIMPLY BLACK-WHITE PARADIGM
MIGHT SUGGEST.
FOR EXAMPLE, YOU WRITE...

Another quote from Shakil’s book appears on screen, under the title “Is that a gun in your pocket?” The quote reads “Results are, unfortunately similar for not just whites taking such tests but also for Asians, Hispanics, and even blacks... ‘Such findings have important implications for police officers given the broader finding that police consistently use greater lethal and non-lethal force against non-white suspects than white suspects.’”

Steve says OKAY, LET'S GET INTO
THIS.
WHY WOULD THERE BE AN ANTI-BLACK
BIAS THERE FOR BLACK
PARTICIPANTS IN THE TESTS WHICH
ARE DESIGNED TO SORT OF FIGURE
OUT WHERE THESE IMPLICIT BIASES
LIVE?

Shakil says WE LIVE
IN WHITE PROTESTANT SOCIETIES
AND AS A RESULT WE ABSORB
THROUGH MEDIA, THROUGH OUR ROLE
MODELS ARE IN EVERY SECTOR OF
SOCIETY, BE THAT BUSINESS WORLD,
EDUCATION -- IN ESSENCE, ALL
ASPECTS OF SOCIETY REINFORCE
WHAT IS NORMAL, RIGHT?
AND AROUND ISSUES OF RACE, IT
HAPPENS TO BE WHITENESS IS
NORMALIZED.
ON THE FLIP SIDE OF THE
EQUATION, WE ALSO HAVE ABSORBED
ALL THE MESSAGES IN SOCIETY
AROUND WHO ARE THE VILLAINS, WHO
IS UNSAFE, WHO ARE THE
CRIMINALS, AND WE HAVE CREATED
ALL THESE STEREOTYPES THAT
PREDOMINANTLY FOCUS ON BLACK
PEOPLE AND ABORIGINAL PEOPLE,
BUT CERTAINLY THE DARKER-SKINNED
PEOPLE ARE THE ONES THAT GET
TARGETED IN THIS.
SO AS A RESULT, EVERYONE HAS
BEEN INFLUENCED BY THIS BECAUSE
WE'VE ALL DRANK FROM THE SAME
PUNCH BOWLS AND OUR TONGUES ARE
MORE OR LESS STAINED THE SAME
COLOURS.
AS A RESULT, IT'S NO THE JUST
POLICE OFFICERS BUT SOCIETY AT
LARGE.
YOU GRAB A RANDOM GROUP OF A
HUNDRED PEOPLE IN A ROOM, AND
YOU WILL SEE SIMILAR KIND OF
TENDENCIES FOR AN ANTI-BLACK BIAS
WHERE PEOPLE WILL MISTAKE
WEAPONS, WILL MISTAKE HOUSEHOLD
OBJECTS -- CELL PHONES, AS WE
TALKED ABOUT, FOR WEAPONS, AND
SEE DANGER AND THREAT WHERE
THERE ISN'T ANY.

Steve says A QUICK FOLLOW-UP
THEN: DO WE KNOW WHETHER POLICE
OFFICERS HAVE ANY MORE ANTI-BLACK
BIAS THAN ANY OTHER GROUP OF
PEOPLE IN SOCIETY?

Shakil says NO.

Steve says NO, WE DON'T NO, OR,
NO, WE DON'T HAVE IT?

Shakil says NOT MORE
THAN ANYONE ELSE.
ON THE WEAPONS TESTS WE'VE SEEN,
POLICE OFFICERS DO A LITTLE
BETTER.
THEY'RE NOT AS TRIGGER HAPPY AS
OTHER PEOPLE IN TERMS OF HOW
THEY PERFORM ON THE TEST, BUT
GENERALLY, THEY'RE IN THE SAME
SOCIETY AS EVERYBODY ELSE.
THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS THAT THEY
CARRY GUNS AND ALSO HAVE THE
ABILITY TO SUSPEND CIVIL
LIBERTIES AT A MOMENT'S NOTICE,
AND SO THAT'S AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT
OF POWER AND THAT REQUIRES AN
ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF
RESPONSIBILITY.

Steve says SAN GREWAL, YOU ARE
HERE BECAUSE, AND I'M HAPPY TO
SHOW THIS TO THE PUBLIC, THIS IS
BACK TOWARDS THE END OF
SEPTEMBER, BLACKS HEAVILY CARDED
BY PEEL POLICE.

He shows a copy of the Toronto Star headlined “Blacks heavily carded by Peel police.”

He continues
THIS IS ONE OF A NUMBER OF STORIES.
THIS ONE YOU GOT FRONT PAGE
ABOVE THE FOLD ON THE PRACTICE
OF CARDING WHICH HAS BEEN A HUGE
CONTROVERSY, OBVIOUSLY, IN
PARTICULAR IN THE GREATER
TORONTO AREA, OF THE POLICE I
GUESS RANDOMLY STOPPING BLACK
PEOPLE MORE OFTEN THAN NOT,
YOUNG BLACK MEN MORE OFTEN THAN
NOT, AND TAKING DOWN INFORMATION
ABOUT THEM ALL FOR THE PURPOSES
OF CREATING A DATABASE THAT I
GUESS IS TOWARDS THE -- WHAT DO
THEY CALL IT?
PROACTIVE POLICING.
PROACTIVE POLICING IS WHAT THEY
SAY.
GIVEN ALL OF WHAT WE'RE TALKING
ABOUT HERE TODAY, HOW WOULD YOU
RATE WHETHER OR NOT THE CARDING
ISSUE IS AS BIG OR AS SMALL AS
SOME PEOPLE SEEM TO THINK IT IS?

The caption changes to "San Grewal. Toronto Star."

San says I THINK IT'S
VERY SIGNIFICANT.
I THINK IT'S SOMETHING THAT IS
DIFFICULT FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE IN
OUR SOCIETY TO UNDERSTAND IF
YOU'RE NOT EXPOSED AND IMPACTED
BY THE PRACTICE DIRECTLY.
I'VE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO
SPEAK TO A NUMBER OF
INDIVIDUALS, PARTICULARLY IN
PEEL, WHO HAVE BEEN ALMOST
INSTITUTIONALLY CRIMINALIZED BY
THIS PRACTICE.
ONE GENTLEMAN HAS BEEN STOPPED
SINCE HE WAS 14, MORE THAN 200
TIMES, HE ESTIMATES.

Steve says AT THE BLACK?

San says HE'S BLACK.
AND THAT GENTLEMAN SAYS THAT OF
THOSE STOPS OVER 70 RESULTED IN
ACTUAL CARDING ENTRIES INTO A
DATABASE, EITHER BY PEEL POLICE
OR TORONTO POLICE, MOST OFTEN BY
PEEL POLICE.
BUT I SHOULD EXPLAIN THAT.
HE DID NOT PARTICIPATE, HE
WASN'T WILLING -- I THINK HE
SAID THE FIRST COUPLE OF TIMES
HE MIGHT HAVE AGREED.
BUT ONCE HE REALIZED WHAT HIS
RIGHTS ARE THAT ANYONE CAN
REFUSE TO ALLOW A POLICE OFFICER
TO TAKE THEIR PERSONAL
INFORMATION, AND ONCE HE
REALIZED, HE STOPPED GIVING THEM
INFORMATION, BUT NONETHELESS,
HE'S BEEN LED TO BELIEVE THAT
THEY STILL RECORDED DATA AND
INFORMATION AND PUT IT INTO
THEIR DATABASE.

Steve says NOW, WHEN YOU TALK
TO PEOPLE LIKE THIS PERSON YOU
TALKED TO -- HOW OLD IS HE NOW?

San says HE'S 38.
I'M GOING TO GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE
OF A COUPLE OF THINGS HE SAID TO ME.
HE SAID HE RARELY DRIVES ANYMORE
BECAUSE HE SAID IT BECAME SUCH A
HASSLE FOR HIM TO DRIVE IN A
RELATIVELY NICE VEHICLE THAT HE
OWNED, IN PARTICULAR PARTS OF
PEEL AND IN TORONTO, BECAUSE THE
CHANCE -- MAYBE NOT THE CHANCE
WERE, BUT IT WAS QUITE LIKELY
THAT HE WAS GOING TO BE STOPPED,
AND HE JUST SAID, NOT ONLY DO I
AVOID DRIVING, IF I CAN, I AVOID
CERTAIN PARTS OF THE REGION.
HE AVOIDS GOING OUT AT CERTAIN
TIMES AT NIGHT.
WE HEARD DURING THE POLICE
SERVICES BOARD MEETING IN PEEL,
THE LAST MEETING ON
SEPTEMBER 25TH, WE HEARD ONE
WOMAN TALK ABOUT HER TWO
CHILDREN.
ONE, WHEN HE'S BUYING ITEMS IN A
SHOP, HE MAKES SURE HE HOLDS
THEM UP BECAUSE HE FEELS HE'S
CONSTANTLY BEING PROFILED.
THE OTHER SON, BEFORE HE ENTERS
HIS CAR, SAME THING, HE MAKES
SURE HE LOOKS LIKE AN UPSTANDING
CITIZEN, TAKES OFF HIS HAT, HAS
HIS I.D. WITH HIM --

Steve says WHEN YOU TALK TO THE
POLICE AND GET THEIR SIDE OF THE
STORY AND THEIR EXPLANATION FOR
WHY YOUNG BLACK MEN IN PEEL
REGION APPEAR TO BE
DISPROPORTIONATELY CARDED,
WHAT'S THE EXPLANATION THAT
COMES BACK?

San says THIS IS WHAT'S
MOST TROUBLING ABOUT THIS ISSUE
IS THAT WHEN WE, THROUGH FREEDOM
OF INFORMATION, RECEIVED THE
DATA FROM PEEL AND THEN WE
ANALYSED IT AND WE REPORTED ON
IT AND WE FOUND THAT BLACKS,
BLACK INDIVIDUALS IN BRAMPTON
AND MISSISSAUGA WERE 3.6 TIMES
MORE LIKELY TO BE STOPPED IN A
STREET CHECK OR CARDING STOP
THAN WHITE PEOPLE WERE, WHEN WE
WENT TO THE CHIEF OF POLICE,
JENNIFER EVANS OF PEEL POLICE,
AND WE ASKED HER AT THE POLICE
SERVICES BOARD MEETING, WHY IS
YOUR FORCE SO DISPROPORTIONATELY
STOPPING BLACK INDIVIDUALS?
HER RESPONSE WAS, AND I QUOTE:
“I DON'T KNOW.”
NOW, SHE FOLLOWED THAT UP BY
SAYING SHE INTENDED TO FIND OUT,
BUT HEREIN LIES THE PROBLEM: IF
THE FORCE DIDN'T KNOW WHY IT'S
HAPPENING, HOW CAN YOU EXPECT
THE INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE BEING
SUBJECTED TO THE PRACTICE TO
HAVE ANY KIND OF AN IDEA WHY
THEY'RE BEING EXPOSED?
AND SO DETRIMENTALLY IMPACTED BY
THIS PRACTICE THAT CAN HAVE REAL
DEEP PSYCHOLOGICAL EFFECTS THAT
REALLY SCARS THESE INDIVIDUALS,
AND LIKE I SAID, I THINK FOR A
LOT OF US, I'VE NEVER BEEN
STOPPED.
PERHAPS YOU'VE NEVER BEEN.
PERHAPS YOU'VE NEVER BEEN.
BUT WHEN YOU SPEAK TO PEOPLE WHO
HAVE BEEN STOPPED NUMEROUS
TIMES, IT'S STILL DIFFICULT FOR
US TO UNDERSTAND --

Steve says I THINK IT GOES
BEYOND THAT BECAUSE, CORRECT ME
IF I'M WRONG HERE, THE CITY
COUNCIL IN MISSISSAUGA ASKED --
OR WAS IT PEEL COUNCIL?
ASKED THE CHIEF TO STOP DOING
CARDING AND SHE SAID NO.

San says IT WAS ACTUALLY
THE PEEL POLICE SERVICES BOARD.

Steve says OKAY.

San says SO THE BOARD
THAT THE CHIEF IS RESPONSIBLE TO
AND ANSWERS TO VOTED TO SUSPEND
THE PRACTICE.
BUT BECAUSE IT WAS RULED OR
DEEMED THAT IT WAS AN
OPERATIONAL MATTER AND THE BOARD
TECHNICALLY DOESN'T HAVE
DECISION-MAKING POWERS OVER
OPERATIONAL MATTERS, THE CHIEF
SAID: I REFUSE TO SUSPEND IT.
SHE HANGS ONTO THE NOTION THAT
IT'S TOO EFFECTIVE A POLICING
TOOL TO STOP.
BUT AGAIN, WHERE'S THE EVIDENCE?
THEY GAVE SIX EXAMPLES.
159,000 STREET-CHECK ENTRIES
OVER SIX YEARS AND THEY WERE
ABLE TO COME UP WITH SIX
EXAMPLES OF INCIDENTS WHERE A
STREET CHECK WAS ACTUALLY USED
TO HELP SOLVE A CRIME.

Steve says OKAY.
LET'S SEE IF WE CAN -- WE'VE SET
UP THE DISCUSSION NOW.
LET'S SEE IF WE CAN GET INTO
SOME SOLUTIONS HERE AND WHAT WE
MIGHT BE ABLE TO DO ABOUT THIS,
AND FOR THAT, CAPTAIN
McCarthy, I WANT YOU BACK INTO
THE DISCUSSION HERE.
I WANT YOU TO TALK TO US, IF YOU
WOULD, ABOUT THE TRAYVON COLE
CASE AND HOW THAT ENDED UP
CHANGING THINGS FOR THE POLICE
IN LAS VEGAS, NEVADA.

The caption changes to "Teach me to be..."

McCarthy says WELL, THE
TRAYVON COLE CASE IS AN INCIDENT
THAT OCCURRED IN 2010, ACTUALLY
JUNE OF 2010.
THERE WAS A NARCOTICS
INVESTIGATION WHERE THE
NARCOTICS DETECTIVES QUITE
FRANKLY DIDN'T DO AS GOOD OF A
JOB AS THEY SHOULD HAVE DURING
THE PRELIMINARY PART OF THEIR
INVESTIGATION.
THEY CONFUSED ONE TRAYVON COLE
TO ANOTHER TRAYVON COLE, AND
DURING THE SEARCH WARRANT WHICH
WAS CONDUCTED BY THE NARCOTICS
TEAM AS WELL AS SOME PATROL
OFFICERS, COME TO LEARN THAT IT
WAS THE WRONG SUBJECT AND THEY
ENDED UP SHOOTING AND KILLING
HIM IN HIS HOUSE.
NOW, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF
FACTORS THAT LED UP TO THE
ACTUAL SHOOTING IN TERMS OF THE
PREPARATION WORK, IDENTIFYING
WHO THE SUBJECT WAS, THE
LOCATION, ET CETERA.
BUT AS A RESULT OF THAT
PARTICULAR CASE, A NUMBER OF
CHANGES TOOK PLACE.
FOR INSTANCE, S.W.A.T. OFFICERS
WERE NOT PART OF THAT SEARCH
WARRANT, TO MY RECOLLECTION.
NOW S.W.A.T. OFFICERS ARE
REQUIRED ON ALL HIGH-RISK TYPE
SEARCH WARRANTS.
A PARTICULAR PLAN HAS TO BE PUT
IN PLACE AND APPROVED THROUGH
THEIR CHAIN OF COMMAND BEFORE
THOSE TYPES OF WARRANTS ARE
EXECUTED.
BUT REALLY WHAT IT DID FROM AN
INSTITUTIONAL PERSPECTIVE IS IT
CAUSED US TO MAKE SOME CHANGES
ABOUT HOW WE LOOK AT THESE
DEADLY FORCE ENCOUNTERS AND TRY
TO IDENTIFY LESSONS LEARNED.
I MEAN, YOU KNOW, THE TRAYVON
COLE CASE IS A TRAGEDY FOR OUR
COMMUNITY, IT'S A TRAGEDY FOR
THE FAMILY, IT'S A TRAGEDY FOR
THE OFFICER AND THE OFFICER'S
FAMILY THAT WENT THROUGH THIS
EVENT, AND I THINK THAT WE WOULD
BE REMISS AS A LAW ENFORCEMENT
PROFESSION IF WE DIDN'T TAKE
THESE EVENTS THAT UNDOUBTEDLY
OCCUR -- AND THEY WILL CONTINUE
TO OCCUR AS WE CONTINUE TO
POLICE THROUGHOUT THIS COUNTRY
AND WE DON'T LEARN FROM THEM.
AND SO A NUMBER OF REALLY
IMPORTANT INSTITUTIONAL CHANGES
OCCURRED FOR US AS A RESULT OF
THAT CASE BUT ALSO SOME OTHER
CASES.
THE TRAYVON COLE CASE IS NOT THE
ONLY CASE WE USE THAT ALLOWED US
TO ENGAGE IN A REFORM PROCESS.

Steve says YOU SAY THERE ARE
SOME INSTITUTIONAL CHANGES THAT
EMERGED.
FOR EXAMPLE...

McCarthy says WELL, ONE OF
THEM IS THAT WE ACTUALLY BEGAN
WHAT IS REFERRED TO AS A
CRITICAL INCIDENT REVIEW TEAM.
IT'S A TEAM THAT CONDUCTS AN
ADMINISTRATIVE INVESTIGATION ON
EVERY DEADLY FORCE INCIDENT
WHEREBY WE LOOK AT TRAINING,
POLICY, SUPERVISOR'S DECISION
MAKING, FORCE TRANSITION TOOLS,
THE TYPE OF PLANNING THAT WENT
INTO AN EVENT THAT ULTIMATELY
LED INTO A DEADLY FORCE
ENCOUNTER, AND QUITE FRANKLY, WE
SIT AT A POSITION WHERE WE
MONDAY MORNING QUARTERBACK THE
EVENT.
I KNOW THAT'S UNCOMFORTABLE FOR
COPS WHEN THEY HEAR THAT, BUT AS
A PROFESSION IN ORDER TO MOVE
FORWARD, WE HAVE TO DO THAT, AND
WE IDENTIFIED THOSE CRITICAL
POINTS WITHIN AN INCIDENT THAT
LED TO DEADLY FORCE, THAT IF WE
HAD CHANGED ONE MOMENT IN TIME
OR ONE DECISION, PERHAPS THE
OUTCOME WOULD HAVE BEEN
DIFFERENT.
YOU HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT
SAY THAT'S NOT A HEALTHY THING
TO DO.
WE BELIEVE IT IS A VERY HEALTHY
THING TO DO.
AND WE HAVE BEEN DOING THIS NOW
SINCE 2010.
THE CRITICAL INCIDENT REVIEW
TEAM HAS BEEN IN EXISTENCE FOR
THAT LONG.
AND I BELIEVE, IF I'M NOT
MISTAKEN, WE'VE LOOKED AT OVER
164 OFFICER-INVOLVED SHOOTINGS
OR OTHER TYPES OF CRITICAL
EVENTS SINCE THAT TIME.

Steve says LET ME DO ONE MORE
FOLLOW-UP, SOMETHING CALLED FAIR
AND IMPARTIAL POLICING.
WHAT'S THAT AND WHAT KIND OF
IMPACT HAS THAT HAD ON YOU?

McCarthy says WELL, FAIR
AND IMPARTIAL POLICING DID NOT
COME AS A RESULT OF THE TRAYVON
COLE CASE BUT AS A RESULT OF A
FORM PROCESS THAT WE STARTED IN
2012-13.
AS A MATTER OF FACT, THERE WERE
ABOUT 76 DIFFERENT
RECOMMENDATIONS THAT CAME OUT OF
A COLLABORATIVE REFORM EFFORT
BETWEEN THE DEPARTMENT OF
JUSTICE HERE IN THE UNITED
STATES AND A CONTRACTED FIRM
CALLED C.N. A., WHICH WAS THE
CENTRE FOR ANALYSIS.
THROUGH THAT AND OUR OWN
DEPARTMENT'S WORK, WE CAME UP
WITH ABOUT 76 RECOMMENDATIONS.
ONE OF THOSE RECOMMENDATIONS WAS
TO START A PROGRAM CALLED FAIR
AND IMPARTIAL POLICING, AND THE
IDEA BEHIND THAT WAS, THE
RESEARCH WAS STARTING TO COME
OUT RIGHT AROUND THAT TIME,
PERHAPS IT WAS EVEN LONGER THAN
THAT, 2013 OR SO, I'M SURE
SHAKIL WOULD KNOW MORE ABOUT
THAT THAN I, BUT IS THERE AN
OPPORTUNITY FOR US TO TRAIN OUR
OFFICERS ABOUT IMPLICIT BIASES
THAT THEY MAY NOT KNOW ABOUT,
THAT ONCE THEY BECOME AWARE OF,
MAY CHANGE THE WAY THEY
POLICE -- MAY CHANGE THE WAY
THEY POLICE.
SO WE FELT THAT IT WAS NECESSARY
TO PROVIDE OUR OFFICERS WITH
THAT LEVEL OF NOT ONLY TRAINING
BUT KNOWLEDGE.
AS YOU KNOW, THEY'RE BOTH TWO
VERY DIFFERENT THINGS.
AND IT TOOK US ABOUT TWO YEARS
TO PUT THAT LESSON PLAN
TOGETHER.
WE UNDERSTOOD IT WAS GOING TO BE
A CONTROVERSIAL SUBJECT.
I MEAN, LET'S FACE IT, I DON'T
CARE IF YOU'RE A POLICE OFFICER,
A DOCTOR, A NURSE, WHATEVER YOU
ARE, REPORTER, IF SOMEONE IS
GOING TO TELL YOU THAT YOU HAVE
PARTICULAR BIASES TOWARDS
ANYTHING, WHETHER IT'S A PERSON
OR AN OBJECT, YOU'RE GOING TO
TAKE A LITTLE DEFENCE TO THAT.
SO WE UNDERSTOOD WE HAD TO BE
SPOT-ON WITH OUR TRAINING.
AND SO IT TOOK US ABOUT TWO
YEARS TO START AND WE CREATED A
FAIR AND IMPARTIAL POLICING AND
PROCEDURAL JUSTICE LESSON PLAN
AND WE IMPLEMENTED THAT IN
OCTOBER OF 2014 WITH THE GOAL OF
EDUCATING OUR ENTIRE WORK FORCE,
BOTH CIVILIAN MEMBERS AND OUR
CORRECTIONS AND POLICE OFFICERS,
AND WE COMPLETED ALL THAT
TRAINING, ABOUT 5,000-PLUS
EMPLOYEES, IN JUNE.

Steve says DID YOU TAKE IT?
IF YOU DID, WHAT DID YOU LEARN
ABOUT YOURSELF?

McCarthy says I DID TAKE IT.
I'LL TELL YOU -- I WILL LEAVE MY
OWN PERSONAL SELF-EVALUATION TO
MYSELF.
BUT WHAT I WILL SAY AS A PERSON
WHO SPEAKS ABOUT THE FAIR AND
IMPARTIAL POLICING, EVERYBODY
WALKS AWAY WITH SOMETHING THAT
THEY PROBABLY NEED TO REFLECT
ON.
WE HAVE TAUGHT THIS CLASS TO NOT
ONLY OUR OWN WORK FORCE BUT WE
HAVE TAUGHT THIS CLASS TO WHAT
WE REFER TO AS THE
MULTI-CULTURAL COMMITTEE WHICH
WAS STARTED IN ABOUT 2006 WITH
ONE OF OUR SHERIFFS, AND REALLY
IT WAS DESIGNED TO BRING A
DIVERSE GROUP OF PEOPLE,
PRIMARILY THOSE WITHIN THE
AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY
TOGETHER, AND TO TALK ABOUT THE
ISSUES THAT WERE AFFECTING THE
AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY, THE
HISPANIC COMMUNITY, PARTICULARLY
THE WAY THAT THEY WERE BEING
POLICED, AND WE SHOWED THEM THIS
CLASS.
WE INVITED THEM TO THE CLASS.
WE'VE HAD A LOT OF DIALOGUE
PRIOR TO THIS FAIR AND IMPARTIAL
POLICING CLASS, AND THEN WHEN
THEY CAME TO THAT CLASS, THE
RESULT WAS, WOW, THIS IS PRETTY
GOOD STUFF.
SO EVEN THEY WALKED AWAY WITH
SOME, YOU KNOW, PERSONAL
REFLECTION MOMENTS, I BELIEVE.

Steve says INTERESTING.
LET'S -- SHAKIL, I'LL GET YOU TO
COMMENT ON THIS FIRST.
WE'RE GOING TO SHOW A CLIP OF A
VIDEO THAT IS USED AS PART OF
POLICE TRAINING.
YOU WOULD NOT EXPECT THE PEOPLE
IN THIS CLIP TO BE PART OF
POLICE TRAINING, BUT I GATHER
THERE'S A METHOD TO THE MADNESS.
SO LET'S PLAY THIS AND THEN
WE'LL COME BACK AND CHAT.
ROLL IT PLEASE, SHELDON.

A clip plays on screen with the caption "Susan Boyle, April 11, 2009."

The clip shows the famous audition of Susan Boyle on Britain’s got talent.

Susan appears on a stage wearing a plain beige dress and says I AM 47.

She cheekily adds
AND THAT'S JUST ONE SIDE OF ME.

[CHEERING]

Simon Cowell says OKAY.
WHAT'S THE DREAM?

Susan says I'M TRYING TO BE A
PROFESSIONAL SINGER.

People in the audience smirk sarcastically.

Simon says AND WHY HASN'T IT WORKED OUT SO FAR, SUSAN?

Susan says I'VE NEVER BEEN GIVEN THE
CHANCE BEFORE BUT HERE'S HOPING
IT WILL CHANGE.

The clip ends.

Steve says I SHOULDN'T SAY
EVERYBODY -- MOST PEOPLE I THINK
KNOW SUSAN BOYLE, SIMON COWELL
FROM THAT SHOW ON THE OTHER SIDE
OF THE POND.
WHAT POSSIBILITY DOES THAT HAVE
TO DO WITH POLICING?

Shakil says I THINK
IT HAS A LOT TO DO WITH IT
BECAUSE YOU CAN SEE IN THE CLIP
RIGHT AWAY THAT BOTH THE
AUDIENCE AS WELL AS SIMON ARE
REACTING TO HER, TO WHAT SHE
LOOKS LIKE.
THEY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT'S INSIDE.
THEY'RE JUDGING HER IN TERMS OF
HER APPEARANCE AND HOW SHE
TALKS.
THEY DO NOT ACTUALLY KNOW HER
POWER.
THEY DO NOT KNOW HER SKILLS OR
ATTRIBUTES UNTIL SHE STARTS
SINGING.
AND THAT'S WHAT THE UNCONSCIOUS
AS WELL AS CONSCIOUS BIASES ARE,
IS THAT WE MAKE PREJUDGMENTS.
SOME OF THOSE ARE OBVIOUS.
MOST OF US CAN LOOK AT THAT AND
GO, WE CAN KIND OF SEE WHAT'S
HAPPENING, THERE'S A STEREOTYPE
THAT MIGHT BE AT PLAY.
A LOT OF TIMES IT'S LESS
CONSCIOUS AND SUBTLE.
THEY START SEEING THE RESULTS
AND HEARING HER SING, ALL OF A
SUDDEN THEY MAY ALSO CONFRONT
THEIR OWN EXPECTATIONS AND IT'S
THE IDEA THAT OUR UNCONSCIOUS
BIAS PUTS PEOPLE INTO CATEGORIES
IN WHICH WE HAVE LOW
EXPECTATIONS OF SOME, HIGH
EXPECTATIONS OF OTHERS.
SOME ARE REGISTERED AS THREATS,
SOME ARE REGISTERED AS POSITIVE,
AND SO THAT --

Steve says AT THE RISK OF US
ALL BEING A LITTLE TOO PRECIOUS
HERE, THE REASON THE SUSAN BOYLE
THING IS SUCH A REVELATION IS
BECAUSE -- YOU'RE RIGHT, NOBODY
EXPECTED HER TO WALK OUT ON THE
STAGE, LOOK THE WAY SHE LOOKS,
SOUND THE WAY SHE SOUNDS, AND
THEN HAVE THAT MAGIC COME OUT OF
HER VOICE BOX.
IT WAS JUST ASTONISHING.
THERE ARE TOUGH-ON-CRIME PEOPLE
WHO THINK THAT THERE IS A GOOD
REASON WHY, WHEN YOU WALK DOWN A
STREET IN ANY TOWN IN NORTH
AMERICA AND YOU SEE A
16-YEAR-OLD BLACK KID WITH HIS
CAP ON BACKWARDS AND HIS JEANS
DOWN TO HIS KNEES, CHAINS ON,
LOOKING TOUGH, WHY THEY OUGHT TO
BE CONCERNED ABOUT THAT.
NEVER MIND THE IMPLICIT BIAS OR
WHATEVER, THEY THINK THERE'S A
LEGITIMATE REASON WHY THEY HAVE
A CONCERNED REACTION TO SEEING
THAT.
ARE WE SAYING THEY'RE WRONG TO
HAVE THAT REACTION?

Shakil says WELL, TWO
THINGS: ONE IS THAT THAT IMAGE
IS WHAT HAS BEEN PORTRAYED AS
DANGEROUS AND CRIMINAL, RIGHT?
SO THAT -- THAT AFFECTS US BOTH
CONSCIOUSLY AND UNCONSCIOUSLY.
NOW, PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTIVELY
SAYING, “AND I BELIEVE ALL OF
THIS OR I KNOW PEOPLE --
EVERYONE SEEMS TO HAVE SOME KIND
OF A STORY WHERE SOMETHING
DIDN'T GO WELL WITH SOMEONE WHO
IS A RACIAL MINORITY AND SO ON.
THERE ARE TWO LEVELS TO THAT.
I WOULD ACTUALLY SAY, YES, IT IS
WRONG.
THAT'S WHERE WE NEED TO CATCH
OURSELVES BECAUSE WE WILL BE
UNDERESTIMATING AND, IN SOME
CASES, MAKING JUDGMENTS THAT
RESULT NOT JUST IN A LITTLE BIT
OF UNFAIRNESS BUT COULD
POTENTIALLY THREATEN SOMEONE'S
LIFE, THAT YOUNG CHILD'S LIFE,
AND WE'VE SEEN THAT HAPPEN OVER
AND OVER AGAIN IN THE CONTEXT OF
POLICING, WE SEE THAT IN THE
EDUCATION SYSTEM, WE SEE THAT
RACIAL MINORITIES AND ABORIGINAL
STUDENTS, FOR EXAMPLE, ARE --

Steve says STREAMED INTO
TECHNICAL FIELDS AND SO ON.

Shakil says THAT'S RIGHT.
AND THE PUNISHMENTS THAT ARE
METED OUT ARE DEFINITELY NOT THE
SAME AS THEIR WHITE MORE
NORMATIVE PEERS, SO WE SEE THAT
HAS AN IMPACT AND, YES, WE ALL
HAVE TO PAUSE.
THAT'S ONE OF THE IMPORTANT
THINGS IS TO A RECOGNIZE IT AND
IT IS GOING TO AFFECT OUR
JUDGMENT AND WE NEED TO PAUSE
AND SAY HOW MUCH OF THIS IS
REAL, HOW MUCH HAVE I MADE UP,
AND THAT'S HOW WE LEARN.

Steve says TWO YEARS AGO, SAN,
YOU WROTE THIS IN THE TERROR
WHERE YOU WORK -- IN THE
TORONTO
STAR WHERE YOU WORK...

A quote appears on screen, under the title “Advice Avoided.” The quote reads “The force has been dogged by allegations of racial profiling for years... In 2007, after the Ontario Human Rights Tribunal found a Peel officer guilty of racial profiling in dealing with a suspected shoplifter, then-chief Metcalf said he was ‘disappointed’ with the finding and objected to the tribunal’s recommendation that the force’s officers needed better training.”
Quoted from San Grewal, Toronto Star, November 26, 2013.

Steve says ARE YOU HOPEFUL,
SAN, THAT THE PEEL DEPARTMENT IS
GOING TO TAKE ACTION, MORE
APPROPRIATE ACTION, IN YOUR
VIEW, WITH BIAS THIS TIME ROUND?

San says YEAH,
ABSOLUTELY, AND IT SHOULD BE
NOTED THAT ALTHOUGH THE FORMER
CHIEF, MIKE METCALF, WHO RETIRED
IN 2012, DID STATE TO THE
TRIBUNAL THAT HE DID NOT AGREE
WITH THAT MEDIATED DECISION,
THAT REMEDY, THAT THIS CULTURAL
AND BIAS SENSITIVITY TRAINING
WOULD HAVE TO BE CONDUCTED, IT
WAS CONDUCTED, AND THE OFFICERS
IN HIS FORCE DID TAKE PART IN
THAT TRAINING.
AND I'VE SEEN A LOT OF WHAT PEEL
IS DOING TO TRY TO ADDRESS THE
POSSIBILITY OF BIAS, AND I DON'T
THINK THAT CHIEF EVANS -- I
CAN'T SPEAK FOR HER, I CAN'T
READ HER MIND, BUT I WOULD LIKE
TO THINK THAT SHE WAS HIRED
BECAUSE SHE'S A PROGRESSIVE
PERSON.
SHE REALIZES WHAT THE
DEMOGRAPHICS OF PEEL HAVE
BECOME --

Steve says HAVE YOU SEEN
EVIDENCE OF THIS?

San says THERE'S GOING
TO BE A STORY IN THE STAR AND IT
SUGGESTS THAT, FOR EXAMPLE,
THEIR HIRING PRACTICES HAVE NOT
EVEN COME CLOSE TO CATCHING UP
TO THE DEMOGRAPHIC SHIFT.
YOU'VE GOT ABOUT 60 percent OF
MISSISSAUGA AND BRAMPTON THAT
ARE VISIBLE MINORITIES, BUT 13 percent
OF THE FORCE ARE VISIBLE
MINORITIES, THE UNIFORMED
OFFICERS.
SO THAT ON ITS FACE SAYS, NO,
THEY'RE NOT BEING PROGRESSIVE.
BUT LET'S NOW SEE WHERE THEY'RE
GOING TO GO IN FIVE YEARS.
IF I SEE THAT NUMBER IN FIVE
YEARS AND IT'S STILL AT 13 percent OR
14 percent, I'M GOING TO BE PRETTY
DISAPPOINTED.
BUT IF IT SAYS 20 percent, LIKE THE
TORONTO POLICE FORCE, BILL
BLAIR, FORMER CHIEF BLAIR AND
CHAIRMAN MUKHERJEE, THEY SAID WE
ARE GOING TO BRING UP THE NUMBER
OF VISIBLE MINORITIES IN OUR
FORCE AND THEY VERY QUICKLY
PRETTY MUCH DOUBLED THEM.
SO IS IT GOING TO HAPPEN IN
PEEL?
WE'LL SEE.
CAN I SPEAK TO ONE THING?

Steve says BEFORE YOU GO ON.
I WANT TO SEE WHAT THE SITUATION
IS LIKE WITH CAPTAIN McCarthy
IN LAS VEGAS.
WE HEARD THE NUMBERS HERE FOR A
MUNICIPALITY WEST OF TORONTO.
WHAT'S IT LIKE FOR YOU WHERE YOU
ARE?

The caption changes to "The right approach."

McCarthy says WELL, THE
NUMBER OR THE PERCENTAGE FOR OUR
AFRICAN-AMERICAN WORK FORCE IS
ABOUT 10 percent.
THAT'S ROUGHLY ABOUT WHAT OUR
DEMOGRAPHICS ARE WITHIN THE CITY
OF LAS VEGAS AND THE COUNTY OF
CLARK.
WHERE WE NEED TO DO MORE WORK,
FRANKLY, IN TERMS OF RECRUITING
IS WITHIN OUR HISPANIC
POPULATION.
WE'RE ABOUT 12 percent NUMBER OF
PERSONS ON THE WORK FORCE, BUT I
BELIEVE THAT OUR DEMOGRAPHICS
ARE ROUGHLY AROUND 30 percent WITHIN
THE COMMUNITY.
WE CERTAINLY NEED TO DO A BETTER
JOB IN TERMS OF RECRUITING
MEMBERS OF OUR HISPANIC
COMMUNITY.
I WILL TELL YOU THAT RECRUITING
IS A VERY DIFFICULT THING, AND I
WOULD BE SOMEWHAT HESITANT TO
SAY THAT A MEASURE, PARTICULARLY
A VERY SOLID MEASURE, ABOUT
PROGRESSIVE POLICING IN TERMS OF
LEADERSHIP AND HOW ONE CHANGES
THE CULTURE WITHIN POLICING IS
MEASURED ON ITS RECRUITING
EFFORTS ALONE.
I THINK THAT -- AS A MATTER OF
FACT, I JUST GOT BACK FROM A
TWO-WEEK TRAINING SESSION IN
GEORGIA AND THAT WAS AMONGST
SHERIFFS AND UNDERSHERIFFS AND
DEPUTY CHIEFS AND A VERY BIG
CONVERSATION WAS ABOUT
RECRUITING.
SO I WOULD BE VERY HESITANT -- I
KNOW I'VE READ A COUPLE OF
ARTICLES THAT SAN HAS DONE.
THEY'RE GREAT ARTICLES.
I WOULD SAY BE MINDFUL THAT
RECRUITING IS ONLY ONE MEASURE,
IF YOU WILL, OF HOW PROGRESSIVE
A LEADER IS IN TERMS OF CHANGING
A POLICE CULTURE.

Steve says NO, I HEAR YOU,
CAPTAIN McCarthy, AND I KNOW
COVERING TORONTO CITY COUNCIL
READINGS 30 YEARS AGO ABOUT THIS
MYSELF, THE POLICE CHIEF OF THE
DAY USED TO TALK ABOUT HOW
DIFFICULT IT WAS TO RECRUIT FROM
VISIBLE MINORITY COMMUNITIES
BECAUSE, FOR EXAMPLE, THEY HAD
COME FROM COUNTRIES WHERE THEY
WERE INTENSELY SUSPICIOUS OF THE
POLICE AND THE POLICE OFTEN FOR
THEM MEANT A KNOCK ON THE DOOR
IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT,
BEING TAKEN AWAY AND ABUSED, AND
WHO WOULD WANT TO BE PART OF THAT.
THEY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THAT
NORTH AMERICAN POLICING WAS A
DIFFERENT KETTLE OF FISH.
I'VE GOT ANOTHER VIDEO WE WANT
TO SHOW.
SHELDON, ARE YOU READY FOR THIS?
WE'RE AT NUMBER 14 HERE.
THIS IS THE FAIR AND IMPARTIAL
POLICING PROGRAM.
THIS IS FROM PONTIAC, MICHIGAN,
NOT TOO FAR, ACTUALLY, FROM THE
PROVINCE OF ONTARIO.
LET'S ROLL THAT CLIP.

Another clip plays on screen.
It seems to have been filmed using a hidden camera.

In the clip, a police officer standing outdoors says
YOU'RE MAKING PEOPLE NERVOUS.

A male voice says BY WALKING BY?

The officer says YEAH, THEY SAID YOU HAD YOUR
HANDS IN YOUR POCKET.

The man says WOW, WALKING BY HAVING YOUR
HANDS IN YOUR POCKETS MAKES
PEOPLE NERVOUS WHEN IT'S SNOWING
OUTSIDE?

The officer says HOW ARE YOU?

The man says I'M GOOD.
HOW ABOUT YOU?

The officer says ALL RIGHT.
WHAT ARE YOU UP TO TODAY?

The man says WALKING WITH MY HANDS IN MY
POCKET.
WALKING.

The officer says IS IT INCONVENIENT TO TALK TO
YOU RIGHT NOW?

Annoyed, the man says HELL YEAH.
BECAUSE OF THE WHOLE POLICE
SITUATION GOING ACROSS THE
COUNTRY, THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS,
SOMEBODY TELLS YOU THERE'S
SOMEBODY WALKING DOWN THE STREET
WITH THEIR HANDS IN THEIR
POCKETS.
THERE ARE THOUSANDS IN
PONTIAC --

The officer says THAT'S RIGHT.
WE DO HAVE A LOT OF ROBBERIES.
I'M CHECKING ON YOU.
YOU'RE FINE, YOU'RE GOOD.

The man says I WANTED TO MAKE SURE I GET
THIS ON CAMERA.
IT'S FOR MY SAFETY AND YOURS.
I'M BEING VERY RESPECTFUL AND
YOU ARE.
THE WHOLE SITUATION, I'M REALLY
MAD AT THE SITUATION OF WHOEVER
CALLED.
THAT'S CRAZY.

The clip ends.

Steve says WE'VE ONLY GOT 3
MINUTES LEFT.
LET ME GET A QUICK REACTION FROM
YOU FOR THIS.
YOU HAVE TWO GUYS WITH CELL
PHONES, THANK GOD SHOOTING EACH
OTHER IN A WAY THAT'S OKAY.
HOW DO YOU THINK HOW EVERYBODY
HANDLED IT?

Shakil says I THOUGHT
THEY HANDLED IT RELATIVELY WELL.
THE PERPETRATOR IN THIS IS THE
PERSON THAT CALLED.
A MAN IS WALKING WITH HIS HANDS
IN HIS POCKET.

Steve says THEY HAVE THE BIAS.

Shakil says THEY BOTH
HAD A CONVERSATION AND THEY
HIGH-FIVED AT THE END.
THANK YOU.

Steve says CAPTAIN McCarthy,
HOW DO YOU LIKE THE WAY THOSE
TWO GUYS HANDLED THAT?

McCarthy says I THINK THE
OFFICER DID A GREAT JOB.
THAT'S WHAT WE WOULD EXPECT.
THEY GOT A CALL.
THIS HE HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY,
REGARDLESS OF THE MOTIVES OF THE
PERSON WHO CALLED, THEY HAVE A
RESPONSIBILITY TO FOLLOW UP ON
THAT AND THE OFFICER WAS MET
WITH SOMEONE WHO HAD A LITTLE
BIT OF HOSTILITY.
OF COURSE WE UNDERSTAND WHY.
AND I THINK THE OFFICER DID
GREAT.
BUT REALLY AN IMPORTANT THING,
WHEN BOTH OF THOSE TWO ENDED THE
CONVERSATION, THEY RESPECTED ONE
ANOTHER, YOU HEARD THAT IN THEIR
VOICE, AND I THINK THAT WAS A
POSITIVE ENDING.

Steve says SAN?

San says I'M NOT AN
EXPERT BY ANY MEANS ON ANY OF
THIS.
YOU SEE SO MANY OF THESE VIDEOS
ON YouTube OR WHEREVER, ERIC
GARNER IN NEW YORK CITY, ALL
KINDS OF OTHER EXAMPLES, AND I
THOUGHT THAT THE OFFICER IN THIS
EXAMPLE MADE SURE NOT TO
ESCALATE THE SITUATION.
IT WAS A SITUATION THAT CLEARLY
DIDN'T NEED TO BE ESCALATED.
UNFORTUNATELY, ANYONE CAN GO ON
YouTube AND JUST PUNCH IN, YOU
KNOW, POLICE, YOU KNOW, ABUSE OR
POLICE BIAS AND YOU'LL COME UP
WITH A HUNDRED CLIPS WHERE
OFFICERS DON'T HANDLE IT THAT
WAY, WHERE THEY, FOR WHATEVER
REASON, REACT WITH, YOU KNOW,
THEIR OWN AGGRESSION, AND ALL OF
A SUDDEN THINGS GET ESCALATED TO
A POINT WHERE THERE'S NO OPTION
BUT TO RESULT IN AN ALTERCATION,
AND, YOU KNOW, LIKE I SAID, I
THINK THE TYPE OF BIAS TRAINING
THAT THE CAPTAIN'S TALKING ABOUT
IS CRITICAL.

Steve says LET'S, AS A
HOSPITABLE CANADIAN GROUP OF
HOSTS HERE, GIVE OUR AMERICAN
FRIEND THE LAST WORD ON THIS.
CAPTAIN, TELL US HOW MUCH YOU
THINK THAT THE USE OF VIDEO
RECORDING CAPABILITIES THROUGH
SMARTPHONES, FOR EXAMPLE, HAS
CHANGED THE CONVERSATION AROUND
POLICE BIAS?

McCarthy says WELL,
CERTAINLY WE GET TO SEE AN
INTERACTION BETWEEN THE PUBLIC
AND THE OFFICERS THAT WE HAD NOT
SEEN BEFORE.
HERE IN LAS VEGAS WE'RE VERY
ACCUSTOMED TO CAMERAS, WE HAVE
THEM ALL OVER THE LAS VEGAS
STRIP FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS,
BUT WHERE THE TURN OCCURRED IS
NOT NECESSARILY IN THE
INDIVIDUAL SMARTPHONES BUT IN
BODY-WORN CAMERAS BY OFFICERS
THEMSELVES.
NOW YOU HAVE BOTH PARTIES
RECORDING EACH OTHER, AND IT
CHANGES THE BEHIOUR OF BOTH
PARTIES, QUITE FRANKLY.
SO I THINK BODY-WORN CAMERAS IS
A VERY GOOD THING FOR US.
I SUPPORT IT.
I WOULD HOPE THERE'S MORE MONEY
TO BE ABLE TO PURCHASE MORE
THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY, BUT, YOU
KNOW, WHEN YOU'VE GOT BOTH USING
SOME TYPE OF RECORDING SYSTEM,
IT DOES CHANGE THE GAME A LITTLE BIT.

The caption changes to "Produced by Gregg Thurlbeck, @greggthurlbeck."

Steve says THAT'S CAPTAIN MATT
McCarthy WITH THE LAS VEGAS
METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPARTMENT.
GLAD YOU COULD JOIN US ON TVO
TONIGHT, CAPTAIN McCarthy.
WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.
SHAKIL CHOUDHURY, AUTHOR, DEEP
DIVERSITY.
THAT'S WORTH YOUR TIME IF YOU'VE
GOT A READ.
AND SAN GREWAL,
TORONTO STAR
WRITER WHO DID A HIGHLY FOLLOWED
AND HIGHLY EXCERPTED SERIES IN
THE
TORONTO STAR
AND CONTINUES
TO WORK FOR THAT NEWSPAPER ON
THIS ISSUE.
THANKS SO MUCH, GUYS.

The guests say THANK YOU.

Watch: Police Bias Explained