Transcript: Improving Canadian Innovation | Oct 15, 2015

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a black suit, white shirt, and striped gray tie. Behind him, a wall screen reads “The Agenda, with Steve Paikin.”

Steve says GREAT NEWS: CANADA IS
AWASH IN PEOPLE WANTING TO BE
ENTREPRENEURS.
ACCORDING TO A RECENT CONFERENCE
BOARD OF CANADA STUDY, 13 percent OF US
ARE SO-CALLED “EARLY-STAGE.”
ENTREPRENEURS.
THAT PUTS US NEAR THE TOP OF THE
LIST AFTER THE U.S. AND
AUSTRALIA.
BY COMPARISON, IN GERMANY AND
FRANCE, ONLY 5 percent OF THE
POPULATION IS THINKING OF
STARTING A BUSINESS.
HAVING SAID THAT, JIM BALSILLIE
IS DEEPLY CONCERNED BY WHAT HE
SEES AS A GROWING INNOVATION
DEFICIT IN CANADA.
AND WITH THAT, WE WELCOME THE
FORMER CHAIRMAN AND co-CEO OF
RESEARCH IN MOTION TO
THE AGENDA.

Jim appears on screen. He’s in his fifties, bald and clean-shaven. He’s wearing a gray suit and a blue gingham shirt.

Steve continues THERE'S JIM BALSILLIE.
GREAT TO FINALLY HAVE YOU HERE.

Jim says GREAT TO BE
HERE, STEVE.

Steve says WE'VE BEEN TRYING TO
ORGANIZE THIS FOR A VERY LONG
TIME, BUT YOU'RE APPARENTLY
BUSY.

Jim says SOMETIMES.
SOMETIMES.

Steve says LET ME JUST GET
YOU -- FIRST OF ALL, I NEED TO
APOLOGIZE TO YOU AND TO THE
VIEWERS.
MY THROAT'S KILLING ME TODAY.
YOU MAY HAVE HEARD.
THERE WAS SOMETHING ABOUT A BALL
GAME OR SOMETHING.
SOMETHING, I DON'T KNOW.
ANYWAY, MY THROAT'S A LITTLE
ROUGH TODAY, SO APOLOGIES FOR
THAT.
HOW DO YOU REACT TO THOSE
NUMBERS THAT SAY WE HAVE A
RELATIVELY HIGH PERCENTAGE OF
POTENTIAL ENTREPRENEURS IN THIS
COUNTRY?

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Jim Balsillie. Former Chairman and Co-CEO of RIM."

Jim says WELL, I
THINK IT SAYS VERY CLEARLY THAT
WE DON'T HAVE AN ASPIRATION
DEFICIT, THAT WE ARE IN FACT
VERY ASPIRATIONAL, WE'RE
PREPARED TO TAKE RISKS, WE'RE
PREPARED TO PURSUE
OPPORTUNITIES, AND I THINK
THAT'S A VERY, VERY POSITIVE
CULTURAL INDICATOR.

Steve says DOES THAT SUGGEST WE
HAVE IN OUR ECO SYSTEM HERE, OUR
BUSINESS ECO SYSTEM, SOME OF THE
THINGS THAT ARE REQUIRED FOR
PEOPLE TO THRIVE IN THIS WORLD?

The caption changes to "Innovating in and for Canada. Much talent and yet..."

Jim says OF COURSE WE
HAVE -- WE HAVE MANY OF THE
THINGS REQUIRED FOR PEOPLE TO
THRIVE.
WE JUST DON'T HAVE ALL OF THEM.

Steve says WE'RE GOING TO GO,
THROUGH THE COURSE OF OUR
CONVERSATION, SOME OF THE THINGS
YOU THINK WE DO NEED.
THE ELECTION.
YOU'RE FOLLOWING THE ELECTION.
HERE ARE WHAT A FEW OF THE
THINGS THAT THE MAJOR PARTIES
HAVE ON OFFER AS IT RELATES TO
WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT NOW.
THE CONSERVATIVES say they WILL IMPLEMENT
A 1.5 billion dollar
CANADA RESEARCH EXCELLENCE FUND.
THE NDP WANT TO INTRODUCE A NEW
INNOVATION TAX CREDIT, MAKE IT
EASIER FOR BUSINESSES TO ACCESS
GOVERNMENT SUPPORT FOR
INNOVATION.
THE LIBERALS PROMISE TO INVEST
200 MILLION dollars EACH YEAR IN A NEW
INNOVATION AGENDA TO
SIGNIFICANTLY, IN THEIR WORDS,
EXPAND SUPPORT FOR INCUBATORS
AND ACCELERATORS.
SO IS IT FAIR TO SAY -- IT'S NOT
FAIR TO SAY THESE GUYS ARE
CLUELESS WHEN IT COMES TO THE
INNOVATION AGENDA, IS IT?

Jim says WELL, I'M
NOT BEING -- GOING TO BE
PEJORATIVE OR BE PARTISAN ON THAT.
MY COMMENT IS THAT OUR
UNDERSTANDING OF HOW AN
INNOVATION ECONOMY IS INCOMPLETE
AND IT'S NOT UPDATED, SO THESE
STRATEGIES ARE JUST TWEAKS OF
STRATEGIES WE'VE USED FOR 30
YEARS, AND THEY HAVEN'T WORKED,
AND SO CANADA'S HAD ZERO GROWTH
IN INNOVATION MEASURED BY STATS
CANADA OVER 30 YEARS IN SPITE OF
HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS
OF INVESTMENT, AND ALL OF THESE
PROGRAMS ARE JUST THE SAME THING
WE'VE DONE BEFORE.
I'M ALL FOR GOOD INFRASTRUCTURE.
I'M ALL FOR INCUBATION.
I'M ALL FOR BASIC RESEARCH.
BUT IT'S NOT GOING TO ADDRESS
THE CORE ISSUE OF WHY WE
ABYSMALLY UNDERPERFORM ON
INNOVATION IN THIS COUNTRY.

Steve says WHY HAS THAT MIX OF
POLICY CHOICES NOT WORKED?

Jim says WELL, THE
PROBLEM IN CANADA IS THAT WE
HAVE A DISCOURSE IN THE POLICY
CIRCLES AND IN THE BUSINESS
ORGANIZATION LEADERS AND THE
POLITICAL CLASS THAT IS REALLY
MIRED IN 30, 40 YEARS AGO, 20TH
CENTURY TRADITIONAL
MANUFACTURING ECONOMY.
SO THEY HAVEN'T UPDATED THEIR
UNDERSTANDING OF HOW AN IDEAS
ECONOMY WORKS, SO THERE'S GAPS
AND INCOMPLETENESS IN THE
APPROACH, AND UNTIL WE
ACKNOWLEDGE AND ADDRESS THOSE
GAPS, WE'RE JUST GOING TO KEEP
REPEATING THE SAME MISTAKES OVER
AGAIN AND NOT GET RETURNS FOR
OUR TREMENDOUS LEVELS OF
INVESTMENT.

Steve says WHO IS THE WE THAT
NEEDS TO GET THIS BETTER?

Jim says I THINK I
JUST SAID IT.
ONE, I THINK THE POLICYMAKERS
NEED TO UPDATE THEIR
UNDERSTANDING FOR HOW AN IDEAS
ECONOMY WORKS, AND I'VE NOT SEEN
THAT YET.
THE POLITICIANS NEED TO
UNDERSTAND.
AND THE BUSINESS ASSOCIATIONS
NEED -- WE HAVE A WEAK DISCOURSE
ON HOW AN IDEAS ECONOMY WORKS
THAT JUST SOUNDS LIKE A
TRADITIONAL MANUFACTURING
ECONOMY DISCOURSE, AND IN FACT,
THE IDEAS ECONOMY IS
TREMENDOUSLY DIFFERENT,
FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT THAN A
TRADITIONAL MANUFACTURING OR
RESOURCE ECONOMY.
SO YOU NEED TO APPROACH IT
DIFFERENTLY AND THE NATURE OF
THE POLICIES AND THE NATURE OF
THE DISCOURSE AND THE NATURE OF
THE COMPLETENESS JUST ISN'T
THERE, AND UNTIL WE ACKNOWLEDGE
THAT AND UNTIL WE UPDATE AND
CHANGE OUR APPROACHES, WE'RE
JUST GOING TO GET THE SAME
ABYSMAL OUTCOME.

Steve says A VERY BASIC
QUESTION HERE: WHY IS IT BETTER
FOR THE CANADIAN ECONOMY TO BE
MANUFACTURERS AND PROMOTERS OF
CELL PHONES AS OPPOSED TO OIL OR
TIMBER?

Jim says I'M NOT
MAKING A CASE FOR ONE OR THE
OTHER, BUT IF YOU'RE GOING TO
SPEND HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF
DOLLARS IN IDEAS ECONOMY, IT
SHOULD WORK.
AND IF YOU HAVE A LARGE
POPULATION THAT'S BETTING THEIR
FUTURE ON IT, I DON'T THINK WE
SHOULD LEAVE THEM AT THE ALTAR.
I THINK THE THIRD THING WHICH IS
ACTUALLY THE MOST IMPORTANT PART
OF IT, WHETHER WE REALIZE IT OR
NOT OR WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR
NOT, IS TECHNOLOGY IS PERMEATING
ABSOLUTELY EVERY SINGLE BUSINESS
LIKE OXYGEN.
AND SO THE RESOURCES BUSINESS IS
GOING TO BE PROGRESSIVELY MORE A
TECHNOLOGY BUSINESS.
AGRICULTURE IS PROGRESSIVELY
MORE TECHNOLOGY BUSINESS.
PULP AND PAPER AND LUMBER IS
MORE A TECHNOLOGY BUSINESS.
SO IF YOU IGNORE THE ROLE OF
TECHNOLOGY AND THE ABILITY TO
CAPTURE WEALTH FROM YOUR IDEAS,
WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO SEE IS THE
WEALTH YOU CAPTURE FROM
TRADITIONAL RESOURCES WILL
BECOME SYSTEMATICALLY UNDER
PRESSURE OVER TIME ABSENT
CYCLICALITY, WHICH IS DIFFICULT,
AND ABSENT THE FACT THAT A WHOLE
LOT OF OTHERS THINK IT'S
IMPORTANT.
I THINK IT'S A PERILOUS APPROACH
TO NOT PAY ATTENTION TO
INNOVATION AND CAPTURING MONEY
FROM YOUR IDEAS IN THE 21ST
CENTURY.

Steve says GIVE US ONE IDEA
THAT WOULD MAKE THIS WORK BETTER.

The caption changes to "Who owns what?"

Jim says WELL, THE
FIRST, MOST IMPORTANT THING IS,
YOU HAVE TO UPDATE YOUR
UNDERSTANDING OF HOW AN IDEAS
ECONOMY WORKS.
THE GOODS -- IDEAS MOVE
DIFFERENTLY THAN TANGIBLE GOODS.
OWNERSHIP IS ESTABLISHED
DIFFERENTLY.
AND HOW YOU GET MONEY FROM IT IS
FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT.
SO IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW
IT WORKS, THEN REALLY YOU'RE AT
A LOSS.
SO I THINK THE FIRST THING WE
NEED TO DO IS UPDATE OUR
UNDERSTANDING, GET A PROPER
EDUCATION OF HOW IT WORKS AND
HOW CANADA IS NOT DOING THE
KINDS OF THINGS THAT OTHER
NATIONS AROUND THE WORLD, LIKE
GERMANY AND ISRAEL AND
SCANDINAVIA AND KOREA AND JAPAN,
THE U.S. ARE DOING, SEE WHAT
WE'RE NOT DOING.
I THINK THAT'S THE FIRST THING I
WOULD RECOMMEND.
THE SECOND THING IS, YOU CANNOT
GET AN IDEAS ECONOMY WORKING IF
YOU DON'T HAVE A PROPER DIALOGUE
BETWEEN THE INNOVATION COMPANIES
AND THOSE THAT MAKE POLICY.
BECAUSE THE INNOVATION ECONOMY
IS CONSTRUCTED ONLY BY RULES.
IF YOU TAKE RULES AWAY, THERE IS
NO MARKET.
AND SO YOU MAKE THE RULES ABOUT
PROSPERITY AND SO YOU MUST HAVE
A DIALOGUE.
SO THOSE WOULD BE THE TWO THINGS
I WOULD SAY WOULD GET US
STARTED.

Steve says I'M GOING TO INVITE
YOU TO LOOK AT THE MONITOR OVER
MY SHOULDER HERE BECAUSE WE'RE
GOING TO PLAY A CLIP OF VICTORIA
ESPONEL SPEAKING IN 2013, SHE
WAS THE U.S.
IN BARACK OBAMA'S WHITE HOUSE.
LET'S PLAY THAT CLIP.

A clip plays on screen with the caption "Victoria Espinel. January 22, 2013."
In the clip, Espinel, in her forties, with black hair tied in a tight bun, gives a conference.

She says -- IS THE CORNERSTONE OF
INNOVATION AND AMERICA HAS
ALWAYS BEEN AT THE FOREFRONT OF
DISCOVERING AND BRINGING IT TO
FRUITION.
IN LAST YEAR'S STATE OF THE
UNION, PRESIDENT OBAMA SAID AN
AMERICA INNOVATION DOESN'T JUST
CHANGE OUR LIVES, IT IS HOW WE
MAKE A LIVING.
WE NEED TO MAKE SURE WE FOSTER
INNOVATION AND THAT WE PROTECT
IT AND INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY
RULES PROTECT THE INTERESTS OF
INNOVATORS AROUND THE GLOBE.

The clip ends.

Steve says INTELLECTUAL
PROPERTY RULES PROTECT THE
RIGHTS OF INNOVATORS ACROSS THE
COUNTRY AND AROUND THE GLOBE.
HOW DO YOU AS A CANADIAN
INNOVATOR REACT TO THAT?

Jim says I'M
IMPRESSED BECAUSE IT SHOWS HOW
AMERICA INC. WORKS.
AMERICA GETS TRILLIONS A YEAR
FROM THEIR INNOVATION ECONOMY
AND THAT'S GOING TO DOUBLE.
THEY'RE PUSHING ENFORCEMENT AND
BROADENING OF RULES TO
THEY HAVE STRATEGY AND AS SHE
SAID, IT'S NOT ONLY HOW
INNOVATION CHANGES AMERICAN
LIVES, IT'S HOW THEY MAKE A
LIVING.
WOULDN'T IT BE NICE TO HAVE SUCH
A STRATEGY AND APPROACH IN
CANADA RATHER THAN JUST TAKE THE
RULES THE AMERICANS FOIST ON US.

Steve says I THINK THE AMERICAN
VIEW IS, AND YOU CAN TELL ME
WHETHER IT'S RIGHT OR WRONG,
THEIR VIEW IS THAT THEIR
APPROACH IS A UNIVERSAL APPROACH
AND IS NOT REALLY AN
AMERICA-FIRST APPROACH.
IS THAT TRUE?

Jim says NO, NO,
THAT'S NOT -- I MEAN, THAT'S A
GOOD WAY TO SAY IT IF YOU WANT
EVERYBODY TO DO WHAT YOU WANT
THEM TO DO.
IT'S FUNDAMENTALLY LOBBYING AND
IT'S LOBBYING THAT ADVANCES
THEIR INTERESTS AND IT'S FAIR
AND IT'S GOOD AND IT'S
LEGITIMATE.
AND IF YOU'RE PREPARED TO TAKE
THAT APPROACH, IT'S NOT A
UNIVERSAL THING WHATSOEVER.
INNOVATION ECONOMY IS A SET OF
RULES AND YOU CREATE THE RULES
TO ADVANCE YOUR PROSPERITY, AND
IF YOU CAN GET PEOPLE TO TAKE
RULES THAT ADVANCES YOUR STATE'S
PROSPERITY, WELL, GOOD ON YOU.
BUT MY POINT IS, UNDERSTAND HOW
THE GAME IS PLAYED.
UNDERSTAND, HAVE A DIALOGUE WITH
BUSINESS WHERE YOU KNOW WHAT
RULES ARE HELPFUL AND NOT
HELPFUL, AND GET IN THE GAME AND
PLAY SHREWD AND SOPHISTICATED.
BUT THAT'S WHAT AMERICA DOES, IT
DOES SO WELL.
CONGRATULATIONS TO THEM.
AND I'M SIMPLY SAYING, TAKE A
PAGE OUT OF THEIR PLAY BOOK AND
START PLAYING WITH THEM.
DON'T JUST COMPLY WITH WHAT THEY
FOIST ON US.

Steve says SHE'S NOT AT THE
WHITE HOUSE ANYMORE.
SHE NOW IS THE PRESIDENT OF
B.S.A., WHICH I'M TOLD IS THE
LEADING ADVOCATE FOR THE GLOBAL
SOFTWARE INDUSTRY.
AND PRESUMABLY SHE'S HAD A FEW
MEETINGS WITH ADMINISTRATION
PEOPLE ON THE ISSUE OF THE TRANS
PACIFIC PARTNERSHIP AND HOW IT
TREATS INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY
RIGHTS.
HAVE YOU BEEN ABLE TO COME TO
ANY CONCLUSIONS YET BASED ON
WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT THE T.P.P.
AS TO WHETHER OR NOT CANADA IS
WELL-PROTECTED IN THAT?

Jim says WELL, I
THINK IF -- I THINK THAT -- THE
ISSUE WITH T.P.P. IS, IT WAS
DONE WITHOUT CONSULTATION WITH
CANADIAN INNOVATORS.
SO WE DON'T KNOW.
AND IF YOU READ THE MEDIA
CAREFULLY, THERE WAS A GOOD
STORY IN THE NEW YORKER ABOUT
HOW SILICON VALLEY GOT
EVERYTHING THEY WANTED IN T.P.P.
GOOD ON THEM.
I'VE TALKED TO OUR MAIN
INNOVATORS IN THIS COUNTRY, NONE
OF THEM WERE CONSULTED ON
T.P.P., NONE OF THEM HAS ANY
IDEA ON IT.
IF IT'S GOOD FOR CANADA'S
PROSPERITY, WELL THEN, WE'RE
LUCKY.
BUT IT'S KIND OF LIKE PLAYING
DARTS BLINDFOLDED.
IF WE'RE LUCKY, IT'S JUST
BECAUSE WE'RE LUCKY, NOT BECAUSE
WE TOOK A SYSTEMIC AND
DELIBERATE APPROACH TO CANADA'S
PROSPERITY.

Steve says I THINK OUR
NEGOTIATORS CONSULTED AUTO, I
THINK THEY CONSULTED
AGRICULTURE, BUT NOT INNOVATORS.
WHY AREN'T INNOVATORS AT THAT
SAME TABLE?

Jim says I PARTLY
BLAME OUR INNOVATORS BECAUSE
THEY HAVE TO STEP UP THEIR ROLE
IN SAYING WHAT THEY WANT.
THE PACIFITY HAS NOT SERVED THEM
WELL.
IF THE BIGGEST MOST SUCCESSFUL
COMPANIES IN THE WORLD ARE
ACTIVELY LOBBYING IN EVERY
CAPITAL IN THE WORLD, THE TOP 4
WERE 108 TIMES IN OTTAWA THE
LAST FEW YEARS.
OUR TOP 2 OR 3 HOT COMPANIES ARE
ZERO.
OF COURSE OTTAWA IS GOING TO
TAKE THEIR MESSAGE.
YOU HAVE TO ENGAGE IF YOU WANT
TO GET THE RULES THE WAY YOU
WANT IT AND I JUST -- I THINK A
PASSIVE APPROACH ISN'T GOING TO
WORK FOR ANYBODY.
IF IT'S NOT ENGAGEMENT ON THE
POLICY CREATORS, THEN IT'S
PASSIVENESS ON THE ENTREPRENEUR
SIDE.
IT CAN BE FIXED.
BUT IF WE KEEP TAKING THE SAME
APPROACH, IT'S NOT GOING TO
WORK.

Steve says IS PART OF THE
PROBLEM HERE, PEOPLE CAN GET
THEIR HEADS AROUND THE NOTION OF
THE T.P.P. ADVERSELY AFFECTING,
LET'S SAY, THE FAMILY FARM, OR
THE AUTO MANUFACTURING PLANT
THAT MAY BE A COUPLE MILES DOWN
THE ROAD, BUT THE NOTION OF
DEALING WITH INTELLECTUAL
PROPERTY IS A BIT OF A BRIDGE
TOO FAR?
IS THAT PART OF THE PROBLEM
HERE?

Jim says THAT'S
EXACTLY THE MAIN PROBLEM.
YOU'VE HIT THE MAIN PROBLEM
RIGHT ON THE HEAD.
IS THAT THE IDEAS ECONOMY IS
FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT THAN A
TRADITIONAL MANUFACTURING
ECONOMY, AND PEOPLE HAVE TO
UNDERSTAND THAT.
SO I'M GOING TO TRY A LITTLE BIT
OF MINUTE TO EXPLAIN THAT HERE.
GOODS -- YOU ONLY HAVE A MARKET
FOR IDEAS IF THE GOVERNMENT PUTS
A BUNCH OF RULES AROUND IT.
BECAUSE, FOR INSTANCE,
INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY PROTECTION
IS A BUNCH OF GOVERNMENT RULES,
AND IT'S BY A BUNCH OF LAWS AND
A BUNCH OF AGENCIES AND IT'S
MANAGED BY A BUNCH OF COURTS.
COPYRIGHT IS A BUNCH OF RULES.
AND SO THEY'RE CHANGED AND
MODIFIED DOZENS OF TIMES EVERY
DAY.
SO WHAT HAPPENS IN THE MARKET IS
IF YOU MANAGE IT BY THE
GOVERNMENT.
SO THIS IDEA THAT AN INTANGIBLE
IDEAS MARKET IS SIMILAR TO A
TRADITIONAL MARKET, IT'S THE
COMPLETE OPPOSITE, AND IN FACT,
WHEN YOU PUT IN NEW RULES, IT'S
A CONSTRAINT.
SO THE WORDS “FREE TRADE” AND
“OPEN TRADE” AND “INTELLECTUAL
PROPERTY RULES” ARE
CONTRADICTORY.
YOU'RE USING THE WRONG WORDS IF
YOU USE A TRADITIONAL MARKET TO
DESCRIBE AN IDEAS MARKET.
YOU'RE RIGHT, IT'S SOMETHING
MANY PEOPLE AREN'T FAMILIAR WITH
BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE A DEEP
WELL OF INNOVATION COMPANIES
PUTTING IT IN THE DISCOURSE,
LOBBYING FOR IT, AND SO IT'S A
BIT OF A CHICKEN AND THE EGG AND
THAT'S WHY I'M TRYING TO TALK
ABOUT IT HERE, AS SAYING YOU
NEED TO UNDERSTAND HOW IT WORKS,
YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT IT'S
CREATED BY RULES, AND IT'S
TOTALLY DIFFERENT THAN A FARM.
AND IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND
THAT, THEN YOU JUST KEEP
REPEATING THE SAME MISTAKES OVER
AND OVER AGAIN.
THAT'S WHY I KEEP SAYING, WE
NEED TO UPDATE OUR
UNDERSTANDING.
BECAUSE IF YOU GET THIS ONE
THING I'M SAYING HERE, THEN
YOU'RE ON YOUR WAY.
BUT IF YOU DON'T GET IT, WE'LL
JUST KEEP REPEATING THE SAME
PROBLEM.

Steve says I PRESUME, THOUGH,
YOU'RE A GUY WHO HAS SPOKEN
TO -- AND WE DON'T HAVE TO NAME
NAMES HERE -- BUT PRIME
MINISTERS, FINANCE MINISTERS,
THOSE KINDS OF PEOPLE, ABOUT
THIS ARGUMENT.
WHEN YOU SAY THIS TO THEM, WHAT
DO THEY SAY BACK TO YOU FOR THE
REASONS THAT THEY HAVE NOT MOVED
ON THIS YET?

Jim says WELL, I
THINK WE -- I'VE TRIED TO SAY IT
AS CLEAR AND RESPECTFULLY AS
POSSIBLE.
WE NEED A DRAMATIC UPDATING IN
OUR UNDERSTANDING OF HOW AN
IDEAS ECONOMY WORKS IN OUR
PUBLIC SERVICE, IN OUR BUSINESS
ASSOCIATION, AND OUR POLITICAL
CLASS.

Steve says THAT HASN'T HAPPENED
AND THEY TELL YOU, JIM, HERE'S
WHY IT HASN'T HAPPENED OR HERE'S
WHY WE CAN'T DO WHAT YOU WANT.

Jim says WHAT HAPPENS
FAR TOO MUCH OF THE TIME IS THEY
PUT FORTH FALSE MYTHS, BECAUSE
WE'RE A SMALL ECONOMY OR A
RESOURCE CURSE OR WE HAVEN'T HAD
A WAR FOR 200 YEARS OR THERE'S A
COMPLACENT CULTURE OR THERE'S
NOT ENOUGH RISK CAPITAL.
SO PEOPLE GO TO MAKING EXCUSES
AND I'M SAYING BUT NONE OF THOSE
ARE TRUE AND THEY CAN ALL BE
ADDRESSED AND THEY'RE NOT
SUBSTANTIATED BY ANY RESEARCH.
THE SECOND THING THAT HAPPENS IS
PEOPLE MOVE IT TO LEVELS OF
ABSTRACTION, LIKE, OH, IF WE
JUST HAD MORE CAPITAL OR IF WE
FOUGHT MORE BRAVELY OR IF WE HAD
MORE PUBLIC INFRASTRUCTURE.
IT'S ALL GOING TO APPEAR --
PEOPLE NEED TO -- WHAT PEOPLE
NEED TO UNDERSTAND IS, AN IDEAS
ECONOMY IS CONSTRUCTED, AND YOU
STRUCTURE A BUSINESS MODEL.
THAT'S WHAT I DID AT RIM.
I CREATED A BUSINESS MODEL AND I
DEFENDED IT AND I WENT TO
CAPITALS AROUND THE WORLD AND
BUILT AN INFRASTRUCTURE OUT OF
THE COUNTRY.
IT WAS AN ENGINEERED BUSINESS
MODEL WITH AN ENGINEERED PROFIT
AND THEN YOU HAD TO ADVANCE IT
AND DEFEND IT IN A COMPETITIVE
WORLD.
AND SO IT'S NOT TALKED ABOUT IN
LEVELS OF GENERAL ABSTRACTION,
IT'S VERY SPECIFIC, IT'S VERY
SURGICAL.
AND SO I WOULD SAY THAT IS FAR
AND AWAY THE MOST IMPORTANT
THING WE NEED TO DO, IS STOP
TALKING ABOUT IT IN
GENERALITIES, STOP TALKING ABOUT
IT IN ABSTRACTION, AND GET TO
REAL TANGIBILITY OF HOW YOU
CAN -- WHAT RULE CAN YOU MAKE OR
WHAT TECHNOLOGY OR WHAT
REGULATION WILL HELP SOME
COMPANY PERFORM BETTER IN PLACES
WHERE IT HAS AN OPPORTUNITY.

Steve says YOU KNOW WHERE
THEY'RE DOING THAT?
YOU KNOW WHERE THEY'RE DOING IT
WITH TANGIBLE SPECIFICITY?
I READ THIS IN ONE OF YOUR
COLUMNS.
GOOGLE VISITED THE WHITE HOUSE
230 TIMES SINCE BARACK OBAMA
BECAME THE PRESIDENT.
THAT'S AN AVERAGE OF ONCE A
WEEK.
WHAT DOES THAT TELL US?

Jim says WELL, IT
TELLS US -- AND THE OTHER PART
OF THAT IS -- GUESS WHAT?
THEY'VE ALSO BEEN IN OTTAWA 50
TIMES IN THE LAST TWO YEARS.
SO PEOPLE WHO THINK THERE'S A
FREE MARKET FOR TECHNOLOGY, WHAT
EXACTLY ARE THEY TALKING ABOUT
WHEN THEY'RE IN THE WHITE HOUSE
EVERY WEEK AND THEY'RE IN OTTAWA
EVERY OTHER WEEK?

Steve says THEY'RE LOBBYISTS
LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE.

Jim says THEY'RE
TRYING TO CHANGE RULES TO FAVOUR
THEM.
AND ABSENT OUR COMPANY SAYING
THE RULES THAT HELP US, WE TAKE
ON OTHER PEOPLE'S RULES.
THEY PUSH A NARRATIVE THAT SAYS
THIS IS A GLOBAL STANDARD.
IT SOUNDS SO GOOD.
BUT IN FACT IT'S JUST THE RULES
THEY WANT.

Steve says WHAT DO YOU SAY TO
THOSE WHO ARE ALREADY SUSPICIOUS
ABOUT THE FACT THAT BUSINESS AND
GOVERNMENT HAVE TOO TIGHT OR TOO
CLOSE A RELATIONSHIP AND THAT
MAKES THEM VERY SUSPICIOUS?

Jim says ARE YOU
TALKING CANADA OR THE U.S.?

Steve says WELL, IT'S CERTAINLY
A PROBLEM DOWN THERE BUT HOW
ABOUT EVEN HERE?

The caption changes to "More lobbying, please."

Jim says IT'S AWOL IN
CANADA, IN THE IDEAS ECONOMY,
YES.
I SUSPECT IT'S THERE -- I KNOW
IT'S THERE IN THINGS LIKE DAIRY
AND OIL AND AGRICULTURE BECAUSE
YOU SEE THE NATURE OF THE
POLICIES AND THE LOBBY GROUPS,
BUT WHEN IS THE LAST TIME YOU'VE
SEEN ANYONE FROM THE IDEAS
ECONOMY IN CANADA BE FACTORED OR
ARTICULATED WHEREAS IN THE U.S.,
YEAH, ROBERT REICH JUST HAD A
BOOK ON SAVING CAPITALISM.

Steve says HE WAS IN THAT CHAIR
A WEEK AGO.

Jim says HE SAID
THESE GUYS HAVE GOTTEN TOO
POWERFUL.
MY POINT IS IN CANADA THEY'RE
TOO WEAK.
SO I WOULD WISH THEY COULD
BECOME THAT POWERFUL THAT WE
HAVE TO REIN THEM IN, BUT RIGHT
NOW THEY'RE SO WEAK THAT THEY
JUST HAVE TO GET GAME READY.

Steve says IS IT PROBLEMATIC TO
CALL FOR AN INCREASING NATIONAL
DEFENCE, IF I CAN PUT IT THAT
WAY, OF CANADIAN INNOVATION IN
AN INCREASINGLY GLOBALIZING
WORLD?
IS THAT PROBLEMATIC?

Jim says WELL, THE
THING YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND, IN
THE WORLD OF IDEAS, THEY MOVE
VERY DIFFERENTLY, AND THE RULES
CAN SWING THE WHOLE FATE -- ONE
RULE CAN SWING THE WHOLE FATE OF
A COMPANY.
SO THE NATURE OF IDEAS COMPANIES
HAVE VERY MUCH BECOME
INTERTWINED WITH STATE ACTIONS.
I WAS A CANADIAN ON THE U.S.
BUSINESS COUNCIL, THE ONLY ONE.
AT MY LAST TWO-DAY MEETING, THE
WHOLE DAY WAS THE STATE
DEPARTMENT IN WITH ALL THE TOP
CEOs IN THE U.S., HOW DO WE
ADVANCE AND PROTECT INTELLECTUAL
PROPERTY AROUND THE WORLD?
IT HAPPENS IN EVERY COUNTRY
AROUND THE WORLD.
THERE'S A TREMENDOUS
INTERRELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE
IDEAS ECONOMY AND THE STATE
BECAUSE IT MAKES THE COUNTRY
WEALTHY AND POWERFUL.
AND IF YOU'RE PASSIVE, THEN A
SINGLE COMPANY IS GOING INTO AN
AMERICA INC. INFRASTRUCTURE OR
TO A GERMANY INC.
INFRASTRUCTURE.
SO WE'RE NAIVE TO THINK THAT ONE
DOESN'T -- I'M NOT SAYING
FORTIFY AND TURN INWARD, BUT BE
STRATEGIC AND BE GAME READY,
UPDATE YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF HOW
THE GAME IS PLAYED.

Steve says AND FOR THOSE WHO
WOULD SAY, YOU BUILT A PRETTY
DAMN SUCCESSFUL COMPANY WITHOUT
ANY OF THESE RULES IN PLAY,
WHAT'S THE ANSWER TO THAT?

Jim says WELL, I HAD
TO BUILD AN INFRASTRUCTURE
OUTSIDE OF CANADA.
SO I HAD OVER 100 LAWYERS
REPORTING TO ME IN DALLAS.
I WAS DOWN IN WASHINGTON EVERY
MONTH WORKING THE D.O.J. AND THE
STATE DEPARTMENT AND COMMERCE
AND THE WHITE HOUSE.
I WAS ON THE DIGITAL ADVISORY
COMMITTEE IN BRUSSELS WORKING
BRUSSELS VERY ACTIVELY.
SO I HAD TO BUILD AN
INFRASTRUCTURE OUTSIDE OF CANADA
FOR RIM TO SCALE.
WITHOUT IT, WE WOULD HAVE
DROWNED.
I MENTOR A NUMBER OF
ENTREPRENEURS AND I DO TALK TO
THE INDUSTRY.
THE PROBABILITY THAT THEY WILL
REPLICATE THAT INFRASTRUCTURE
OUTSIDE OF THE COUNTRY BY
THEMSELVES IS NOT HIGH.
AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, WHY ISN'T
IT THERE IN A 21ST CENTURY
SOPHISTICATED INNOVATION ECONOMY
CALLED CANADA?
THAT'S WHY I SAY WITH
CREDIBILITY AND EXPERIENCE,
WE'RE MISSING GAPS HERE AND THEY
CAN BE CREATED, BUT THEY'RE
COMPLETELY AWOL IN THIS COUNTRY.
RIM GREW BECAUSE WE PRECISELY
BUILT OUTSIDE OF CANADA WHAT
WASN'T IN CANADA.

Steve says IS THERE ANOTHER
RIM-LIKE CANADIAN COMPANY THAT
YOU SEE ON THE HORIZON TODAY?

Jim says THERE IS NO
CHANCE THERE WILL BE ANOTHER RIM
UNTIL WE FIX THIS
INFRASTRUCTURE.
IF WE FILL IN THE GAPS AND FIX
THIS INFRASTRUCTURE, THERE'S
MANY COMPANIES THAT CAN BE
GLOBAL SUCCESSES.
BUT IF YOU SEND THEM WITH
FUNDAMENTAL GAPS IN
INFRASTRUCTURE, BY DEFINITION
YOU CANNOT SCALE BECAUSE PEOPLE
WILL START TO CHANGE THE RULES
AND START TO CHANGE THE
OWNERSHIP AND START TO CHANGE
THE REGULATION ONCE THE MONEY
MATTERS.
SO IF YOU'RE NOT ABLE TO CONTEND
IN THERE AND SUSTAIN YOUR
POSITION AND ADVANCE IT IN BOTH
THE INNOVATION AND IN THE
OWNERSHIP COMMERCIALIZATION
REALM, YOU'LL JUST GET
ENGINEERED OUT OF THE GAME.
THERE WILL BE A REGULATION OR A
STANDARD BODY WHERE THEY'LL
RECARVE OUT THE PROFITS.
YOU WON'T BE THERE.
AND THERE WAS AN ARTICLE BY
DANNY BRESNES RECENTLY TALKING
ABOUT HOW THEY SET STANDARDS
WITH ALL THE COUNTRIES IN THE
WORLD AND THEY DON'T INVITE
CANADA.
WE DON'T SHOW UP.

Steve says TWO LAST QUICK
QUESTIONS: NUMBER ONE, ANY
DESIRE TO RUN ANOTHER BIG, WITH
GLOBAL REACH, CANADIAN COMPANY?

The caption changes to "TVO.org"

Jim says GROWING A
TECH COMPANY IS VERY DEMANDING.
IT TAKES REALLY ALL YOU'VE GOT.
AND IT OWNS YOU.
IT'S A BEAUTIFUL EXPERIENCE.
YOU GET TO CHANGE THE WORLD.
YOU GET TO PROSPER MIGHTILY.
BUT, YOU KNOW, LIFE IS PRECIOUS
AND I'M MORE INTERESTED IN
SEEING THE NEXT GREAT
ENTREPRENEURS TAKE IT TO THE
MOON, AND IF I CAN SHOW THEM BY
HELPING -- THEY'VE ASKED ME TO
CHAIR THIS LOBBY, SHOW THEM HOW
YOU INTERGRATE LOBBYING
COMMERCIALIZATION AND THIS WHOLE
NEXT GANG CAN TAKE IT TO THE
MOON, THAT IS SOMETHING I WOULD
LOVE TO SEE MORE THAN ANYTHING
ELSE.

Steve says FINALLY, HAVE YOU
GOT THE BUG OF OWNING A HOCKEY
TEAM OUT OF YOUR SYSTEM YET?

Jim says I HAVEN'T
HAD A MEETING IN 6 YEARS ON
THIS?
YEAH, NO, NO.
IT WAS A GOOD BUSINESS
OPPORTUNITY BUT, NO, I HAVEN'T
FOLLOWED UP WITH IT ONE BIT
SINCE THEN.
IF YOU CAN'T MAKE MONEY, I
WASN'T INTERESTED.

The caption changes to "Produced by Wodek Szemberg, @wodekszemberg."

Steve says AS A HAMILTONIAN,
I'VE GOT TO SAY, IT'S SO TOO BAD
THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.
IT REALLY IS.
ANYWAY, THAT'S ANOTHER SHOW.
JIM BALSILLIE, REALLY GOOD OF
YOU TO COME IN TO TVO TONIGHT
AND HELP US OUT WITH THIS.
THANKS VERY MUCH.

Jim says PLEASURE, STEVEN.

Watch: Improving Canadian Innovation